Granny's arse on fire?
John Davies
My mother will be 94 tomorrow, and thinking about her tonight I recalled
an expression of hers that I don't think I've heard from anyone else:
"He'd laugh to see his granny's arse on fire." (Signifying a
particularly heartless individual.)
Has anyone else heard this one, and if so, where? Mum was brought up in
the Rhondda valley in South Wales, an area noted for a certain
robustness in speech and in song.
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
On that of which one cannot speak, one must remain silent. (Wittgenstein)
wke...@ibm.net
Best wishes to your mother on her birthday, and thanks for a very good laugh.
I've just finished dusting myself off after two bouts of rolling on the floor.
The first bout came from the initial reading of the phrase, the second when
I very heartlessly pictured my own granny's arse afire and what her probable
reaction would be. In fact, thinking about it again is making it rather
difficult to type...
Kent
Truly Donovan
pms...@email.psu.edu wrote:
>
> John Davies <jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> >My mother will be 94 tomorrow, and thinking about her tonight I recalled
> >an expression of hers that I don't think I've heard from anyone else:
> >"He'd laugh to see his granny's arse on fire." (Signifying a
> >particularly heartless individual.)
>
> >Has anyone else heard this one, and if so, where?
>
> "house"? The dropped H wouldn't be unusual, and it's not too much of a leap
> from there. Just a thought. :) (That's a don't-hurt-me-I'm-just-a-kid
> smiley.)
I've never heard it before either, but I'd say the likelihood of its
being a corruption of "house" is vanishingly small, given that it is a
perfect uncorruption of "arse."
--
Truly Donovan
"Industrial-strength SGML," Prentice Hall 1996
ISBN 0-13-216243-1
http://www.prenhall.com
pms...@psu.edu
John Davies <jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk> writes:
>My mother will be 94 tomorrow, and thinking about her tonight I recalled
>an expression of hers that I don't think I've heard from anyone else:
>"He'd laugh to see his granny's arse on fire." (Signifying a
>particularly heartless individual.)
>Has anyone else heard this one, and if so, where?
I can't say I've ever heard this one, but might "arse" be a corruption of
"house"? The dropped H wouldn't be unusual, and it's not too much of a leap
from there. Just a thought. :) (That's a don't-hurt-me-I'm-just-a-kid
smiley.)
-Pat Stone
pms...@email.psu.edu
John Davies
In article <pms149.10...@psu.edu>, "pms...@email.psu.edu"
<pms...@psu.edu> writes
>John Davies <jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>>My mother will be 94 tomorrow, and thinking about her tonight I recalled
>>an expression of hers that I don't think I've heard from anyone else:
>>"He'd laugh to see his granny's arse on fire." (Signifying a
>>particularly heartless individual.)
>
>>Has anyone else heard this one, and if so, where?
>
>I can't say I've ever heard this one, but might "arse" be a corruption of
>"house"? The dropped H wouldn't be unusual, and it's not too much of a leap
>from there.
Not impossible, but somehow I doubt it. She always says it as though
it's a well-known saying (and with a certain wicked glint) and I can't
see the "house" version being striking enough to become common currency.
From the small number of responses to this, I can only conclude that it
was her own or a family coinage, or alternatively a translation of an
original Welsh saying. (Three of my grandparents spoke Welsh: none of
their grandchildren do.)
Thanks, BTW, to those who sent e-mail congratulations on her birthday.
I've passed them on, but though it prudent to gloss over the reasons for
so many total strangers sending her their good wishes.
M. Price
This is one of my grandfather's lines. It was only used when he was in
high dudgeon, "You! You'd laugh if your granny's arse was on fire!--but
it inevitably had the undesired result of increasing the hilarity. I've
never heard anyone else say this, and thought it was an original, but it
sounds as if it must have been a local expression. What parts of Wales
are you talking about? My grandfather was from South Pembrokeshire.
And although he used the word "arse" frequently, it never meant "house."
Merrall Price
--
"A woman is not a basket you place your buns in to keep them warm, not a
brood hen you can slip duck eggs under, not a purse, holding the coins
of your descendants till you spend them in wars." (Marge Piercy)
mp
Truly Donovan
Dale Williams wrote:
>
> Truly Donovan wrote:
> >
> > I've never heard it before either, but I'd say the likelihood of its
> > being a corruption of "house" is vanishingly small, given that it is a
> > perfect uncorruption of "arse."
>
> in Cockney and if I recall correctly, music hall.
Why would you assume that it was a play on words when it is much more to
the point and much funnier if it is *not* a play on words, but "arse"
in its own right?
Dale Williams
Truly Donovan wrote:
>
> pms...@email.psu.edu wrote:
> >
> > John Davies <jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > >My mother will be 94 tomorrow, and thinking about her tonight I recalled
> > >an expression of hers that I don't think I've heard from anyone else:
> > >"He'd laugh to see his granny's arse on fire." (Signifying a
> > >particularly heartless individual.)
> >
> > >Has anyone else heard this one, and if so, where?
> >
> > I can't say I've ever heard this one, but might "arse" be a corruption of
> > "house"? The dropped H wouldn't be unusual, and it's not too much of a leap
> I've never heard it before either, but I'd say the likelihood of its
> being a corruption of "house" is vanishingly small, given that it is a
> perfect uncorruption of "arse."
>
>
No, house/'ahse/arse jokes and references are not uncommon, especially
in Cockney and if I recall correctly, music hall.
However, I have heard this expression used to indicate meanness:
"He wouldn't spit [or "piss"] down your throat if your arse was on
fire."
I've no idea where it originates.
D.A.W.
John Davies
In article <1997Feb8.1...@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>, "M. Price"
<mp...@troi.cc.rochester.edu> writes
> This is one of my grandfather's lines. It was only used when he was in
>high dudgeon, "You! You'd laugh if your granny's arse was on fire!--but
>it inevitably had the undesired result of increasing the hilarity. I've
>never heard anyone else say this, and thought it was an original, but it
>sounds as if it must have been a local expression. What parts of Wales
>are you talking about? My grandfather was from South Pembrokeshire.
>And although he used the word "arse" frequently, it never meant "house."
At last! So glad you posted this. It does indeed seem that the
expression comes from Wales, and possibly even Pembrokeshire, since I
believe my grandmother's family came from there. My mother was born and
brought up in Porth, in the Rhondda valley, a journey of 87 miles by
today's roads from Pembroke town. It is worth bearing in mind that the
Rhondda was a boom area in the 19th century: tens of thousands migrated
there, from Wales, England, Ireland and even Italy, drawn by
(relatively) well-paid jobs in the mines which produced the best steam
coal in the world. So linguistically it was a melting pot, and even
today it is the area of Wales in which Welsh is least widely spoken.
Dale Williams
Truly Donovan wrote:
>
> Dale Williams wrote:
> >
> > Truly Donovan wrote:
> > >
> > > being a corruption of "house" is vanishingly small, given that it is a
> > > perfect uncorruption of "arse."
> >
> > No, house/'ahse/arse jokes and references are not uncommon, especially
> > in Cockney and if I recall correctly, music hall.
>
> the point and much funnier if it is *not* a play on words, but "arse"
> in its own right?
Funny is as funny does. Yours is a contemporary judgement.
But take your clue from the fact that it is several generations back we
are talking about. The humour then lay in the "daring" of using socially
taboo words under the guise of wordplay.
No nice Victorian or Edwardian woman would use the word "arse", or
permit it to be used in their presence (this was used by George Bernard
Shaw as a plot device in "Pygmalion"); but in intimate or family
circumstances a little naughty leeway might be admitted as humour.
Wordplay - double entendre - provided the tacit permission.
"granny's arse is on fire" has one meaning, humorous if you find it so.
"granny's 'ahse is on fire" is knowing, two jokes for the price of one.
I've remembered some more "arse" double entendres. These are old
playground rhymes:
Arse (ask) your mother for sixpence, to see the big giraffe
Hairs on its chest and a pimple on its (start verse again)
And:
The higher up the mountain, the greener grows the grass
Down came a billygoat, sliding on its overcoat.
One of the Cockney music hall pieces I was thinking of in my original
message went:
"Ours is a nice house, ours is" - pronounced
"Arse is a narss arse, arse is"
I have a friend who uses her granny's saying of a piece of clothing that
is a bit tired and worn, that it will "do for rahnd the 'ahse".
Said with a chuckle; the double entendre is well understood.
Which is not to say that "arse" is not what was meant to be on fire in
our correspondents' saying, but there is sufficient doubt, I think, not
to be dogmatic about it.
D.A.W.
Jitze Couperus
In article <3300C1...@actrix.gen.nz>, Dale Williams
<word...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
> I've remembered some more "arse" double entendres. These are old
> playground rhymes:
>
> Arse (ask) your mother for sixpence, to see the big giraffe
> Hairs on its chest and a pimple on its (start verse again)
>
I can't remember the name of the tune but the words went something like
A sole...
A sole...
A Soldier I shall be!
Two pis...
Two pis...
Two pistols at my knee,
To fight for the old count...
Fight for the old count...
Fight for the old country!
It is transcribed above withought the naughty words, but if you sound
it out, no doubt you will get the idea. Hilarious stuff sung
by urchins in the playground - as long as Mrs Sidebotham wasn't within
earshot.
Jitze (Is there vegetation on Uranus? No - but there is on Mars)
Shakib Otaqui
On 11 Feb, in article
<01bc182f$ece39a80$96c9...@muldrew.nbnet.nb.ca>
!mul...@nbnetet.nb.ca "Roots" wrote:
R> > Arse (ask) your mother for sixpence, to see the big giraffe
R> > Hairs on its chest and a pimple on its (start verse again)
R> >
R> (Snip)
R>
R>
R> Cole Porter wrote
R>
R> "Have you heard of Mimsie Starr?
R> She got pinched in the Astor Bar."
There's the hoary old limerick:
There was a young girl of Madras
Who had a most beautiful ass
Not rounded and pink
As at first you might think
But was grey, had long ears and ate grass
--
The beauty of a pun is in the argh of the beholder.
_____________________________________________________________________
Shakib Otaqui Al-Quds Consult
Evan Kirshenbaum
>permit it to be used in their presence (this was used by George Bernard
>Shaw as a plot device in "Pygmalion"); but in intimate or family
Are you sure about that? (The Shaw claim; not that "arse" was
considered impolite.) Peter Fryer, in _Mrs Grundy: Studies in English
Prudery_, implies that the verbal taboo broken in _Pygmalion_ was the
use of the word "bloody":
...in the following year the taboo was broken on the London stage in
Shaw's _Pygmalion_, the interest in the first English performance of
which 'centered in the heroine's utterance of this banned word. It
was waited for with trembling, heard shudderingly, and presumably,
when the schock subsided, interest dwindled.' [the quote is the _New
York Times (14 Apr 1914), cited in Menken's _American Language_,
1922 edition]
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Politicians are like compost--they
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |should be turned often or they start
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |to smell bad.
Truly Donovan
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
> In article <3300C1...@actrix.gen.nz>,
> Dale Williams <word...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
> >No nice Victorian or Edwardian woman would use the word "arse", or
> >permit it to be used in their presence (this was used by George Bernard
> >Shaw as a plot device in "Pygmalion"); but in intimate or family
>
> Are you sure about that? (The Shaw claim; not that "arse" was
> considered impolite.) Peter Fryer, in _Mrs Grundy: Studies in English
> Prudery_, implies that the verbal taboo broken in _Pygmalion_ was the
> use of the word "bloody":
>
> ...in the following year the taboo was broken on the London stage in
> Shaw's _Pygmalion_, the interest in the first English performance of
> which 'centered in the heroine's utterance of this banned word. It
> was waited for with trembling, heard shudderingly, and presumably,
> when the schock subsided, interest dwindled.' [the quote is the _New
> York Times (14 Apr 1914), cited in Menken's _American Language_,
> 1922 edition]
Oh, dear -- it seems we've regressed. I'm not willing to go and fast
forward through it to verify this, but I believe in the movie version of
"My Fair Lady," Audry says "bloomin'" rather than "bloody." I suppose
they figured there was no point in using "bloody" for an American
audience, who believe that word to mean "covered in gore."
John Davies
In article <330620...@lunemere.com>, Truly Donovan
<tr...@lunemere.com> writes
[...]
>> Dale Williams <word...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
>> >No nice Victorian or Edwardian woman would use the word "arse", or
>> >permit it to be used in their presence (this was used by George Bernard
>> >Shaw as a plot device in "Pygmalion"); but in intimate or family
>>
>> Are you sure about that? (The Shaw claim; not that "arse" was
>> considered impolite.) Peter Fryer, in _Mrs Grundy: Studies in English
>> Prudery_, implies that the verbal taboo broken in _Pygmalion_ was the
>> use of the word "bloody":
>Oh, dear -- it seems we've regressed. I'm not willing to go and fast
>forward through it to verify this, but I believe in the movie version of
>"My Fair Lady," Audry says "bloomin'" rather than "bloody." I suppose
>they figured there was no point in using "bloody" for an American
>audience, who believe that word to mean "covered in gore."
>
bloody likely - I'll take a cab". It's the climax of an immensely funny
scene in which Eliza lapses on several occasions into cockney idiom, all
in the cool manner and cut-glass Kensington accent she had just acquired
from Professor Higgins.
In "My Fair Lady" the line was re-located from a drawing room to the
races at Ascot, and transformed into "Move your blooming arse [name of
horse]!", shouted with a reversion to the original cockney accent. But
one can hardly blame the film-makers: the subtle comedy of the original
scene would not have worked with an international audience.
Health warning: I can't find my copy of "Pygmalion", and I don't have
the video of MFL: but give or take the odd word, I'm pretty sure those
are the lines.
MFL is good fun, but quite apart from the music and the loss of
subtlety, Pygmalion it ain't. The concluding romance between Eliza and
Higgins runs completely counter to Shaw's vision, and does violence to
the character of Higgins, who was clearly just as much a capon as GBS
was himself.
Daan Sandee
In article <CM30XFAJ...@redwoods.demon.co.uk> John Davies <jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk> writes:
>Eliza Dolittle's original shocking line in "Pygmalion" was "Walk? Not
>bloody likely - I'll take a cab". It's the climax of an immensely funny
>scene in which Eliza lapses on several occasions into cockney idiom, all
>in the cool manner and cut-glass Kensington accent she had just acquired
>from Professor Higgins.
Correct. In my memory.
ELIZA. Not bloody likely. (Sensation.)
where "ELIZA" is small caps and "Sensation" is a stage direction and in
italics.
>In "My Fair Lady" the line was re-located from a drawing room to the
>races at Ascot, and transformed into "Move your blooming arse [name of
>horse]!", shouted with a reversion to the original cockney accent. But
If I remember correctly, "Get up, you bloody ass!" and the word is a
pejorative comparison with a lesser equine, nothing to do with nether
parts.
>one can hardly blame the film-makers: the subtle comedy of the original
>scene would not have worked with an international audience.
Well, "arse" is not known to Americans and "ass" means something totally
different, so they screwed up with either text. I don't know about the
musical (as opposed to the movie.) (For that matter, neither "blooming"
not "bloody" are transatlantically unambiguous.)
Daan Sandee
Burlington, MA Use this email address: sandee (at) east . sun . com
Avi Jacobson
Daan Sandee <san...@sun.nospam> wrote in article
<5ear0c$o...@walters.East.Sun.COM>...
[Eliza in _Pygmalion_: "Not bloody likely." Eliza in _My Fair Lady_:
"Dover, move your bloomin' arse!"]
> Well, "arse" is not known to Americans and "ass" means something totally
> different, so they screwed up with either text.
Not necessarily. Growing up in the US, I heard the word [a:s] used in
British films and by British comedians on many occasions, and always
assumed it was a "strange" pronunciation of "ass", in the same way the I
interpreted British [pa:st] as a strange pronunciation of our [p&st] and
British [ha:f] as a strange pronunciation of our [h&f]. (I am ignoring the
side issue of the Philadelphia pronunciation with which I grew up: [he:@f],
[pe:@st], and [e:@s] respectively for "half", "past", and "ass" -- as
immortalized in that famous second-grade retort to "What time is it?":
[he:@f pe:@st V k&:wz e:@s].)
It was only many years later, in high school, that I first saw the word
"arse" in writing and even later when I realized that the British _never_
used "ass" in the sense of "arse". Had I lived in Canada (where "arse" is
used with nearly-US rhotic pronunciation), I would have realiz4ed this
earlier.
> I don't know about the
> musical (as opposed to the movie.) (For that matter, neither "blooming"
> not "bloody" are transatlantically unambiguous.)
Which is why the point of the joke was ported from the word "bloody" (in
"not bloody likely") to the word "arse" (heard by USAns as "ass").
Regards,
Avi
--
Avi Jacobson, email: avi_...@netvision.net.il | When an idea is
Home Page (Israel): | wanting, a word
http://www.netvision.net.il/php/avi_jaco | can always be found
Mirror Home Page (U.S.): | to take its place.
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/4034 | -- Goethe
Adrian Tan
John Davies wrote:
> In "My Fair Lady" the line was re-located from a drawing room to the
> races at Ascot, and transformed into "Move your blooming arse [name of
> horse]!", shouted with a reversion to the original cockney accent. But
> one can hardly blame the film-makers: the subtle comedy of the original
> scene would not have worked with an international audience.
>
> Health warning: I can't find my copy of "Pygmalion", and I don't have
> the video of MFL: but give or take the odd word, I'm pretty sure those
> are the lines.
I recall "Come on, Dover! Come on, Dover!!! COME ON, DOVER, MOVE YER
BLOOMIN' ARSE!!!!"
Evan Kirshenbaum
In article <330620...@lunemere.com>,
Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> wrote:
>Oh, dear -- it seems we've regressed. I'm not willing to go and fast
>forward through it to verify this, but I believe in the movie version of
>"My Fair Lady," Audry says "bloomin'" rather than "bloody."
I'm pretty sure that you are correct. I think that "arse" was what
was supposed to (mildly) shock the American audience.
>I suppose they figured there was no point in using "bloody" for an
>American audience, who believe that word to mean "covered in gore."
The American is frankly puzzled by the attitude of the refined
Englishman toward this word, and inquiry generally elicits the
information that the word is frightfully vulgar, not because of
any hidden meaning attached to it, but because it is used by
frightfully vulgar people.
Semper, _English Journal, Apr., 1929, quoted
in Fryer.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |"You can't prove it *isn't* so!" is
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |as good as Q.E.D. in folk logic--as
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |though it were necessary to submit
|a piece of the moon to chemical
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |analysis before you could be sure
(415)857-7572 |that it was not made of green
|cheese.
| Bergen Evans
John Davies
In article <330AB1...@usyd.edu.au>, Adrian Tan <as...@usyd.edu.au>
writes
>I recall "Come on, Dover! Come on, Dover!!! COME ON, DOVER, MOVE YER
>BLOOMIN' ARSE!!!!"
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
Jonathan Paterson
Adrian Tan <as...@usyd.edu.au> wrote:
>I've always understood the word [bloody] to stand for "by our Lady" (and so
>offend Catholic sensibilities in particular), but the OED gives me no
>support. Has anyone else heard this explanation?
I've certainly heard the explanation, though it doesn't seem terribly
convincing if only regular sound changes are taken into account.
On the other hand, when I arrived in Quebec some 20 years ago I found
that very deliberate modifications of the names (in French) for
various bits of church furniture were widely used in swearing. (There
seems to be less variety these days, and fewer attempts to disguise
the origins of religious swear words--perhaps because for many
religion has become more remote memory.)
Adrian Tan
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
> In article <330620...@lunemere.com>,
> Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> wrote:
> >Oh, dear -- it seems we've regressed. I'm not willing to go and fast
> >forward through it to verify this, but I believe in the movie version of
> >"My Fair Lady," Audry says "bloomin'" rather than "bloody."
>
> I'm pretty sure that you are correct. I think that "arse" was what
> was supposed to (mildly) shock the American audience.
>
> >I suppose they figured there was no point in using "bloody" for an
> >American audience, who believe that word to mean "covered in gore."
>
> The American is frankly puzzled by the attitude of the refined
> Englishman toward this word, and inquiry generally elicits the
> information that the word is frightfully vulgar, not because of
> any hidden meaning attached to it, but because it is used by
> frightfully vulgar people.
> Semper, _English Journal, Apr., 1929, quoted
> in Fryer.
I've always understood the word to stand for "by our Lady" (and so
Markus Laker
Adrian Tan <as...@usyd.edu.au>:
['Bloody']
> I've always understood the word to stand for "by our Lady" (and so
> offend Catholic sensibilities in particular), but the OED gives me no
> support. Has anyone else heard this explanation?
The FAQ lists half a dozen possible derivations for 'bloody', and
describes an origin in 'by our Lady' as 'phonetically implausible'.
The full article is too long to post here, but you can obtain the FAQ
from the usual places. If you don't know where the usual places are,
send me an empty email message with the words 'send FAQ pointer' in the
title. For a copy of the FAQ by mail, send me an empty email message
with the words 'make money fast' in the title. In both cases, my mailer
will reply automatically.
Markus Laker.
--
If you quote me, I would appreciate an email copy of your article.
Evan Kirshenbaum
In article <330D25...@usyd.edu.au>, Adrian Tan <as...@usyd.edu.au> wrote:
>Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> >I suppose they figured there was no point in using "bloody" for an
>> >American audience, who believe that word to mean "covered in gore."
>>
>> The American is frankly puzzled by the attitude of the refined
>> Englishman toward this word, and inquiry generally elicits the
>> information that the word is frightfully vulgar, not because of
>> any hidden meaning attached to it, but because it is used by
>> frightfully vulgar people.
>> Semper, _English Journal, Apr., 1929, quoted
>> in Fryer.
>
>offend Catholic sensibilities in particular), but the OED gives me no
>support. Has anyone else heard this explanation?
From the same source (Fryer), p. 66: "The popular derivation from
_by'r Lady_ has many times been exploded." Unfortunately, Fryer
doesn't give any references to such explosions.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Specifically, I'd like to debate
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |whether cannibalism ought to be
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |grounds for leniency in murder,
|since it's less wasteful.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Calvin
(415)857-7572