Name pronunciation
Yvonne M. Poser
: My original question, by the way, was about how to pronounce these
: names when speaking IN ENGLISH.
: Coby Lubliner
Fujimori's name is usually given the Spanish jota. The others I've
heard were usually "Anglicised" to an English approximation of the
original French, German or Italian name.
I'd do the latter. Why should we parrot the bastardized pronunciations
of some remote populace? If you can say the jay sound, do so.
And stop worrying so much; you don't always have to be
correcter-than-thou.
--Tom Hunter
Coby (Jacob) Lubliner
name in a foreign language led me to ponder another question:
How does one pronounce, when speaking in English, names that are of
British/Irish origin, with spelling intact, but which belong to
prominent citizens of non-English-speaking countries? I am referring,
for example, to the French president MacMahon, the Mexican artist
O'Gorman, the Spanish brandy-distilling family Osborne (one of
whose members is a pop singer), the French ditto Hennessy, and so
on.
The question can be expanded. For example, I am never quite
sure, again when speaking in English, whether to give such famous
"French" names as Schweitzer, Schlumberger or Francescatti their
(1) French, (2) original (i.e. German, Italian or the like), or
(3) anglicized original pronunciation. Similar examples can be
found for other languages.
I would like to learn what other language-conscious speakers do.
Coby Lubliner
Pascal MacProgrammer
>The recent thread (in sci.lang) concerning pronunciation of one's
>name in a foreign language led me to ponder another question:
>How does one pronounce, when speaking in English, names that are of
>British/Irish origin, with spelling intact, but which belong to
>prominent citizens of non-English-speaking countries?
Good question!
My sources say that the proper pronunciation of the name "O'Higgins" is
\oh-ey-GANS\, when speaking of Bernardo O'Higgins, the Liberator of Chile.
--
==----= Steve MacGregor
([.] [.]) Phoenix, AZ
--------------------------oOOo--(_)--oOOo----------------------------------
Visualize whirled peas!
Dik T. Winter
> On yet another tangent, you'd think "Smurf" would be about the same,
> after dealing with phonetic issues, in other languages. But it's
> "Schtroumpf" in the original French and "Schluempfe" in German. (I figure
> they had to use something different in German because "Strumpf" is
> already a word, meaning "stocking".) "Smurf" came to us unchanged from the
> Dutch.
Indeed quite another tangent. But figures from (especially Belgian) comics
are most liable to a complete name change. To wit a few Belgians:
Dutch French
Suske & Wiske Bob & Bobette
Robbedoes Spirou
Kuifje Tintin
Guust Gaston
to name a few. It is strange that in general the English speaking community
is using the French based names (even if the original is Dutch), except
for Smurf (which is a comic of French Belgian origin)!
I always wonder how such his handled when the name becomes an issue in the
story. For instance from the stories of Suske & Wiske (original Flemish
from Antwerp) it is clear that those two names are diminutives of the
full names Francois & Louise (even for me from a region where they are
vary different. And in the stories the latter names are used on occasion,
to stress something.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924098
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; e-mail: d...@cwi.nl
Dik T. Winter
> On yet another tangent, you'd think "Smurf" would be about the same,
> after dealing with phonetic issues, in other languages. But it's
> "Schtroumpf" in the original French and "Schluempfe" in German. (I figure
> they had to use something different in German because "Strumpf" is
> already a word, meaning "stocking".) "Smurf" came to us unchanged from the
> Dutch.
Indeed quite another tangent. But figures from (especially Belgian) comics
are most liable to a complete name change. To wit a few Belgians:
French Dutch
Suske & Wiske Bob & Bobette
Robbedoes Spirou
Kuifje Tintin
Guust Gaston
to name a few. It is strange that in general the English speaking community
is using the French based names (even if the original is Dutch), except
for Smurf (which is a comic of French Belgian origin)!
Pascal MacProgrammer
>Going off on a tangent, I was intrigued at one point by the name
>Khrushchev (pronounced Kroosh-chev in the US and Kroosh-choff in the UK).
>[Relying on my powers of recollection here, since it's 20 years since I've
>seen his name in different languages.] It takes us 10 letters to spell
>this name in English. Spanish renders it as Jrusof, I think, for only 6.
>French, on the other hand, spells it Khrouchtchof (or something like that)
>for 12. I think either German or Dutch gets up to 13 letters. In the
>Russian Cyrillic version, it's only 6: kh-r-oo-shch-e-v.
I saw it in a German newspaper: Kruschtschow. Note how the single
Russian letter "shcha" gets stretched into four in English, and seven in
German!
Pascal MacProgrammer
>Three sounds Japanese have problems with
>are "ch," "l" and "f" ('T'ain't "Mount Fujiyama,"...
Calling that mountain "Mount Fujiyama" is like saying "Mount Pike's
Peak". It should be called either "Fujiyama", "Fujisan", or "Mount Fuji".
The "FU" syllable in Japanese is pronounced by saying "PU", but leaving
off the explosive part at the beginning. Sort of like making an English
F-sound using both lips, instead of the upper teeth and lower lip.
Glen Ecklund
>On yet another tangent, you'd think "Smurf" would be about the same,
>after dealing with phonetic issues, in other languages. But it's
>"Schtroumpf" in the original French and "Schluempfe" in German. (I figure
>they had to use something different in German because "Strumpf" is
>already a word, meaning "stocking".) "Smurf" came to us unchanged from the
>Dutch.
As I recall, "Smurf" is "Pitufo" in Spanish.
--
Glen Ecklund gl...@cs.wisc.edu (608) 262-1318 Office, 262-1204 Dept. Sec'y
Department of Computer Sciences 1210 W. Dayton St., Room 3355
University of Wisconsin, Madison Madison, Wis. 53706 U.S.A.
Cornell22
>In Spanish it's "pitufo". I forget what Smurfette is called-- Pitufina,
>I think. (One girl smurf in the whole town-- that's always seemed a bit
>suspicious to me. She must be awfully tired.)
Well, then maybe the Spanish for "Smurfette" is really "puta."
Cornell Kimball
Los Angeles
------------------------------------------
Mark Twain on Heaven: "Leave your dog outside. Heaven
goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay
out and the dog would go in.
Donald R. Morris
While at Horace Mann School in 1930s, I
had classmate, Jules Pincus, who was
much bemused by French teacher pronouncing
his name "Jool Pahn'keuh."
Three sounds Japanese have problems with
are "ch," "l" and "f" ('T'ain't "Mount Fujiyama,"
more "Hujiyama" -- with exposively aspirated
"h.") While I was patient in Naval Hospital, Yokosuka,
during Korean war, there was a USN nurse named
Chelf. Our greatest delight was to get Japanese
probationary nurses to take messages to and from
Chelf; they'd go to extreme lengths to avoid having
to pronounce her name. ("She say okay." "Who?" "Nurse."
"Nurse WHO?" Look of anguish, followed by what
sounded like "HHrgh!!"
Also Japanese chanteuse in Tsingtao singing
"Ritter Sir Echo, How Do You Do -- Haro, Haro, Haro-oh!"
Harlan Messinger
: Not so very long ago, co...@euler.Berkeley.EDU (Coby (Jacob) Lubliner) said...
: >The recent thread (in sci.lang) concerning pronunciation of one's
: >name in a foreign language led me to ponder another question:
: >How does one pronounce, when speaking in English, names that are of
: >British/Irish origin, with spelling intact, but which belong to
: >prominent citizens of non-English-speaking countries?
: Good question!
: My sources say that the proper pronunciation of the name "O'Higgins" is
: \oh-ey-GANS\, when speaking of Bernardo O'Higgins, the Liberator of Chile.
I was going to ask about that one!
Lots of non-Spanish last names among Latin-American heads of state.
Galtieri (Argentina) was easy, but what do they do with the J in Fujimori
(Peru)? How about Stroessner (Uruguay), Pinochet (Chile), Letelier
(Chile)? I once knew an Argentine by the name of Olchelvsky. Must have
been tough.
In the other direction, there are plenty of names that cause us trouble
in English. I remember the first time Walter Kronkite reported on Iranian
Prime Minister Ghotbzadeh. I expected a stray vowel to slip in there
somewhere, but was upset when he not only stuck one in but STRESSED it.
His rendering came out gut-BOO-za-deh. Fortunately, by the next day
Kronkite had clearly had some practice, and had it down to GOP-za-deh.
Going off on a tangent, I was intrigued at one point by the name
Khrushchev (pronounced Kroosh-chev in the US and Kroosh-choff in the UK).
[Relying on my powers of recollection here, since it's 20 years since I've
seen his name in different languages.] It takes us 10 letters to spell
this name in English. Spanish renders it as Jrusof, I think, for only 6.
French, on the other hand, spells it Khrouchtchof (or something like that)
for 12. I think either German or Dutch gets up to 13 letters. In the
Russian Cyrillic version, it's only 6: kh-r-oo-shch-e-v.
On yet another tangent, you'd think "Smurf" would be about the same,
after dealing with phonetic issues, in other languages. But it's
"Schtroumpf" in the original French and "Schluempfe" in German. (I figure
they had to use something different in German because "Strumpf" is
already a word, meaning "stocking".) "Smurf" came to us unchanged from the
Dutch.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
There is no such thing as bad data, only data from bad homes.
Joseph C Fineman
pronounce foreign names the native way in English speech. The Russian
has 3 unEnglish sounds in it: Kh (like ch in Bach), the trilled r, and
shch, pronounced variously, but usually like our sh but with the
tongue pressed against the roof of the mouth. The e is like the vowel
in "bought", and that is where the stress is. Now try it: Khhrru-
SHCHOFF. Inserted into an English sentence, it would not only be
unrecognizable as the name of the familiar peasant in the newspapers --
it might actually be mistaken for a sneeze.
Down with the Foreign Names for Foreign Things movement! People
speaking English are entitled to English names for people --
Khrushchev as well as Napoleon, Caesar, and Aristotle.
--
Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
239 Clinton Road (617) 731-9190
Brookline, MA 02146
Dai F Toyama
> >Three sounds Japanese have problems with
> >are "ch," "l" and "f" ('T'ain't "Mount Fujiyama,"...
>
> The "FU" syllable in Japanese is pronounced by saying "PU", but leaving
> off the explosive part at the beginning. Sort of like making an English
> F-sound using both lips, instead of the upper teeth and lower lip.
>
Isn't it interesting that about 1000 years ago, FU was actually
pronounced like PU in Japanese? Fujisan used to be like Pujisan :)
/*****************************************************\
* Dai F Toyama *
* *
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Furue Ryo
| Coby (Jacob) Lubliner (co...@euler.Berkeley.EDU) wrote:
|
| >The question can be expanded. For example, I am never quite
| >sure, again when speaking in English, whether to give such famous
| >"French" names as Schweitzer, Schlumberger or Francescatti their
| >(1) French, (2) original (i.e. German, Italian or the like), or
| >(3) anglicized original pronunciation. Similar examples can be
| >found for other languages.
|
| [...]
|
| To me, the most correct solution is to find out how the people
| in question pronounce their own names, and to use that pronunciation.
| Of course this can be difficult for names in an unfamiliar language,
| or for confusing cases such as those Coby mentioned; but politeness
| demands that we make the effort.
|
| My first name, Peter, is pronounced as "peteur" by some French
| speakers, and I find this offensive. Similarly, many people are
| offended if you mispronounce their surnames.
This makes me curious. Are you offended if you are called "Pierre" by
some Frenchman? or PAY-ter by some German? or "Pedro" by some Spanish
speaker?
There are two reasons why I pose this question. One is that I often
find, in novels or something, situations like: Frederick, an American,
is called "Frederico" in Italy ("A Farewell to Arms" by Hemingway);
Karl, a German, is called "Carlos" in Argentina (Carlos Kleiber, a
conductor, is German); Georg Friedrich Haendel signed his name as
"Handel" when in England (and you English speakers call him "George
Frederick Handel," don't you?). The other is that I don't belong to the
Western culture, where you often find name equivalences such as William =
Guillaume = Wilhelm = Giovanni = ..., so that I just don't know your
feelings about name equivalences. So, are you offended if you are called
with some name equivalent to yours?
Ryo
Paul J. Kriha
>
> In article <bmoore-03...@bmoore.qualcomm.com> bmo...@qualcomm.com (Holoholona) writes:
>
> # heh. well, most native american names were considered so
> # unutterable that europeans usually just translated the name to
> # english, eg. "sitting bull" or "rain in the face."
> #
> # why not do that for other foreign names? christopher columbus
> # would have turned into something like "christbearing dove."
> #
> # what would khrushchev be?
>
> According to my Smirnitsky Russian-English Dictionary, a _khrushch_ is
> a 'cockchafer'.
>
> :)
>
> Um, it's a type of scarab beetle, it seems.
>
> David Johns
If the surname is of Russian origin (and I have
no reason to doubt it) then it probably is derived
from 'cockchafer' which is a common beatle in
C.Europe as well as common surname in Slav nations.
If it originated from nnother Slav language it
could be related to 'pear', 'cherry', or even 'grain'
(like a grain of salt).
Paul JK
Ken Moore
stev...@bud.indirect.com "Pascal MacProgrammer" writes:
> Calling that mountain "Mount Fujiyama" is like saying "Mount Pike's
>Peak". It should be called either "Fujiyama", "Fujisan", or "Mount Fuji".
When did we first try to use the real Japanese name? For Thomas Weelkes
(fl. 1605) it was Fogo.
"The Andalusian merchant that returns
Laden with cochineal and china dishes
Reports in Spain how strangely Fogo burns
Amidst an ocean full of flying fishes."
(from "Thule, the period of cosmography", a splendid madrigal about
volcanos.)
--
Ken Moore (K...@hpsl.demon.co.uk)
Charles Lee
short of saying someone's name in the same way they do. I've been pretty
good at this over the years. Those whose names seem difficult to
pronounce are invariably all smiles when I "get it right."
The British are well known for their deliberate Anglicizing of foriegn
names (like In-juh for India). It's pure laziness not to take the time
and trouble to pronounce the name as intended, whether (to answer the
original question) speaking American English or not.
Fortunately, mine is not that tough.
Charles A. Lee (you may say Chaa-lz, or Char-ulz. I answer to both.)
Jon Livesey
|> Surely Miss Manners would have to hold back her blush by any suggestion
|> short of saying someone's name in the same way they do. I've been pretty
|> good at this over the years. Those whose names seem difficult to
|> pronounce are invariably all smiles when I "get it right."
|>
|> The British are well known for their deliberate Anglicizing of foriegn
|> names (like In-juh for India).
That's a good example of "well-known" not coinciding with fact.
Outside of Hollywood films and PG Wodehouse novels, I don't
think British people very often say In-juh for India.
jon.
Malte_Borcherding
writes:
>
>Pascal MacProgrammer (stev...@bud.indirect.com) wrote:
>
>: I saw [the transliteration of "Khrushchev"] in a German
>: newspaper: Kruschtschow. Note how the single Russian letter
>: "shcha" gets stretched into four in English, and seven in
>: German!
>
>Note also that the first letter (generally transliterated as
>"kh" in English) is represented as a simple "k". How do the
>Germans distinguish the two Cyrillic letters we show as "k"
>(which looks like a "K") and "kh" (which looks like an "X")?
>Why don't they use "ch" for the "X", since that represents
>approximately the same sound in German?
My German Encyclopedia says "Chruschtschov". The transcription of this letter (X)
(or its arabic equivalent, for that matter) is inconsitent. We have Khomeini as
well as Chomeini, though the latter is far better suited for German readers.
Maybe there is some UN-Regulation which gives "official" transsciptions vs.
traditional transsciptions?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Malte Borcherding
University of Karlsruhe, Institute of Computer Design and Fault Tolerance
76128 Karlsruhe/Germany
_._. . _._. .. _. .____. . ... _ .__. ._ ... .._ _. _._. ___ _.. .
email: bor...@ira.uka.de * phone: ++49-721 608 3961 * fax: ++49-721 370455
url: http://goethe.ira.uka.de/people/borcher/homepage_e.html
Peter Moylan
>The question can be expanded. For example, I am never quite
>sure, again when speaking in English, whether to give such famous
>"French" names as Schweitzer, Schlumberger or Francescatti their
>(1) French, (2) original (i.e. German, Italian or the like), or
>(3) anglicized original pronunciation. Similar examples can be
>found for other languages.
My six-year-old son insists on giving his (and my) surname
two different pronunciations, depending on whether he is speaking
French or English. Everyone else finds this strange; but to him
the habit is so natural that we can't break him of it.
To me, the most correct solution is to find out how the people
in question pronounce their own names, and to use that pronunciation.
Of course this can be difficult for names in an unfamiliar language,
or for confusing cases such as those Coby mentioned; but politeness
demands that we make the effort.
My first name, Peter, is pronounced as "peteur" by some French
speakers, and I find this offensive. Similarly, many people are
offended if you mispronounce their surnames.
--
Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
file://ee.newcastle.edu.au/pub/www/Moylan.html
David A. Johns
lac...@kbbs.com
A friend's son teaches junior high school in Hollywood (CA); 69
languages are spoken in the homes of the students of that school. I
teach US History and Political Science (both state requirements for
degrees in California) at a Los Angeles Community College. As I teach
only evenings and late afternoons, my classes attract an older, working
group, mostly recent immigrants. Recently, I counted 22 different
countries of origin, though usually it is about 12. My last name is a
longish danish-in-origin one that has been anglicized for 100 years. I
explain all that to my students, indicating the nature of a country made
up of immigrants from all over. Kiss the umlauts and accent marks and
all other parochial quirks from your names. Don't take it personally,
the deutschers learned to respond to german, and "welcome to America."
--
[*] Message Origin: KBBS Los Angeles! 74 Access Lines [*]
[*] (818) 886-0872 or Telnet 204.96.25.7 in...@kbbs.com [*]
Maelstrom
: In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.95020...@paul.spu.edu> Dai F Toyama <bo...@paul.spu.edu> writes:
: | > Donald R. Morris <drmo...@phoenix.phoenix.net> wrote:
: | >
: | > >Three sounds Japanese have problems with
: | > >are "ch," "l" and "f" ('T'ain't "Mount Fujiyama,"
: | > >more "Hujiyama" -- with exposively aspirated "h.")
: | >
: | > I think you are referring to Kansai pronunciation, at
: | > least with regard to "f" and "ch". In Tokyo they don't
: | > sound too different from their English values.
: | >
: |
: | I don't think Japanese people have any trouble pronouncing 'f' and 'ch'
: | if they need to. Japanese 'F' is bilabial; that is, it's pronounced with
: | the upper and lower lips touched. It sure is different than the English
: | 'F' which is labio-dental, That influences the Japanese when they speak
: | in English.
: Wrong. In the Japanese 'F,' the upper and lower lips are _not_ touched.
: (See below.)
: In article <D3CL2...@indirect.com> stev...@bud.indirect.com (Pascal MacProgrammer) writes:
: | The "FU" syllable in Japanese is pronounced by saying "PU", but leaving
: | off the explosive part at the beginning. Sort of like making an English
: | F-sound using both lips, instead of the upper teeth and lower lip.
: This explanation is also confusing. The upper and lower lips are not
: that close to each other. The fricative sound made following your
: instruction will be much stronger than it ought to be.
: To obtain a correct Japanese 'F,' blow out a candle, then preserve the
: form of your lips, and then blow again more softly. Your lips are open a
: little bit wider than for the English 'w' sound, and you hear a slight
: fricative noise. That's the Japanese 'F' as in "Fuji." Believe me. I'm
: a native speaker of Japanese.
: Ryo FURUE
: ^^
Aa soo desu ka. Also, is there really such a big discrepency betweenthe
chin english and japanese? I took only 1 year of Nihongo I admit, but
still I did not see much of difference. That r in japanese is NASTY
though. My teacher said it is an "l" sound but i soon learned that it was
actually an intermediate sound between l and r and that depending on the
word it sometimes came closer to l or r (especially in words of foreign
origin , in particular english).
cris
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Although I disagree with every word you say, to the death I will defend
your right to say it." -- Voltaire
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are
injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say
there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor
breaks my leg." -- Thomas Jefferson
Cristobal "Maelstrom" Cardona
ccar...@mail.sas.upenn.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark Odegard
writes:
>
>In article <3go8uu$3...@clarknet.clark.net>,
>Harlan Messinger <gu...@clark.net> wrote:
>>Going off on a tangent, I was intrigued at one point by the name
>>Khrushchev (pronounced Kroosh-chev in the US and Kroosh-choff in the
UK).
>
> Off on my own tangent, I was fascinated (and sickened) to learn
from
>a piece on local TV news about yesterday's rendez-vous of the U.S.
space
>shuttle w/ the Russian space station, that the latter was named
"Myrrh."
>'Twas the first time I'd heard that particular mangle. One might
imagine
>that the blow-dried babblers who spew local news occasionally hear
others
>speak. If this one ever did, she certainly did not make note of the
>(reasonably good) English pronunciation of "Mir" that I've heard all
over
>the place for years.
> Paul
>
"Mir" is one of those words you regularly have to be reminded how to
pronounce. Rather like the capital of Iran, which has slid back to two
syllables. By itself in isolation, mir could be pronounced to rhyme
with fir or sir, which is the most natural English way of saying it.
It's a homophone for mere or meer.
Mark Brader
> My six-year-old son insists on giving his (and my) surname
> two different pronunciations, depending on whether he is speaking
> French or English. Everyone else finds this strange; but to him
> the habit is so natural that we can't break him of it.
Brader's Law of Usenet: never post an article that claims that "everyone"
does something, for you will hear from those who don't.
Brader rhymes with "trader", when I'm speaking English. However, I also
speak some French and enough German to reserve a hotel room -- and when
traveling in Europe, I have found that if I listen to the way native
speakers of those languages pronounce my name, and vary my own pronun-
ciation of it to match (well, try to match) theirs, then they'll spell it
correctly and have a better chance of actually finding those reservations.
--
Mark Brader (Douglas R.) Hofstadter's Law:
m...@sq.com "It always takes longer than you expect, even
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto when you take into account Hofstadter's Law."
This article is in the public domain.
Keith Ivey
: I don't belong to the Western culture, where you often find name
: so that I just don't know your feelings about name equivalences.
A nit: William = Guillaume = Wilhelm = Guglielmo, not Giovanni.
Giovanni = Johann = Jean = John.
Equivalent names are used more often for historical figures: Peter
the Great (but not John the Terrible?), Christopher Columbus,
St. Francis of Assisi, etc. Also for popes, even modern ones:
John Paul II. But for modern royalty the name is not generally
translated--I've never heard Juan Carlos called John Charles.
The practice is full of inconsistencies--the "s" is not pronounced
in the English names for French kings named Louis, and we don't
say "Mary Anthonette".
--Keith Ivey <kci...@cpcug.org>
Washington, DC
Dai F Toyama
> Dai F Toyama <bo...@paul.spu.edu> writes:
>
> | I don't think Japanese people have any trouble pronouncing 'f' and 'ch'
> | if they need to. Japanese 'F' is bilabial; that is, it's pronounced with
> | the upper and lower lips touched. It sure is different than the English
> | 'F' which is labio-dental, That influences the Japanese when they speak
> | in English.
>
> Wrong. In the Japanese 'F,' the upper and lower lips are _not_ touched.
>
> To obtain a correct Japanese 'F,' blow out a candle, then preserve the
> form of your lips, and then blow again more softly. Your lips are open a
> little bit wider than for the English 'w' sound, and you hear a slight
> fricative noise. That's the Japanese 'F' as in "Fuji." Believe me. I'm
> a native speaker of Japanese.
>
That's interesting, because I am also a native speaker of Japanese. I
was born and grew up in Kobe till I was 18. (Then went to university in
Tokyo for 4 years.) I should get some credit for this too! :)
How do you pronounce the 'FU' in SEIFU (gov't)? I always make a bilabial
sound. You probably know the Hepburn romanisation rules, don't you?
There, HA-GYO is written this way:
HA HI FU HE HO
If the Japanese pronounced 'FU' with the lips apart, why would they have
had to use 'FU' instead of 'HU'?
Here's another interesting fact. In Old Japanese (-1000AD), they
pronounced HA-GYO like PA PI PU PE PO. In the Edo area, they still
pronounced it like FA FI FU FE FO (with bilabial sounds). The present
'FU' is probably a carryover from the mediaeval pronunciations.
Well it doesn't PROVE anything, but it at least tells you that it makes
sense that 'FU' is pronounced bilabially (at least to my experience).
Regards,
/*****************************************************\
* DAI F TOYAMA Computer Science *
* Seattle Pacific University *
* Internet: <bo...@spu.edu> *
* Automobile: 92 Acura Integra GS-R *
* Human Languages: Japanese, English, Spanish *
* Inhumane Languages: C, COBOL, Assembly *
\*****************************************************/
Paul J. Kriha
>
> pe...@tesla.newcastle.edu.au writes:
> > My six-year-old son insists on giving his (and my) surname
> > two different pronunciations, depending on whether he is speaking
> > French or English. Everyone else finds this strange; but to him
> > the habit is so natural that we can't break him of it.
>
> Brader's Law of Usenet: never post an article that claims that "everyone"
> does something, for you will hear from those who don't.
>
> Brader rhymes with "trader", when I'm speaking English. However, I also
> speak some French and enough German to reserve a hotel room -- and when
> traveling in Europe, I have found that if I listen to the way native
> speakers of those languages pronounce my name, and vary my own pronun-
> ciation of it to match (well, try to match) theirs, then they'll spell it
> correctly and have a better chance of actually finding those reservations.
> --
It certainly helps to know how the person at the other end
of the telephone line would pronounce your name.
A few years ago I was trying to ring my cousin in
Austria. They changed the area codes and I had to go
through the operator in Vienna. (These days I would
just telnet into Austrian phone directory service).
The operator couldn't find the name because she didn't
quite understand my pronunciation. When she asked me
to spell it, there was further confusion. I tried to
be helpful and spelled it in German, she thought I was
spelling it in English. Eventually, I got the name
across correctly and she found the right street and
house number. "Ahh" she cried "So it's KRIHA" and
gave me 5 minute speel on how to pronounce the name
correctly. I tried to tell her it was also my name
so I should know how to pronounce it but she wouldn't
let me in. The worst thing was that I couldn't
discern any difference in her pronounciation of the
name and my German-like approximations.
Eventually, she finished and I apologized. In German.
That was a mistake. She asked why was I speaking
English earlier if I could make the enquiry in German.
I apologized for apologizing in German and explained
that my German wasn't really that good. She gave me
another 5 minute speel not to mix languages in the
future.
I suppose, she was right. I use telnet these days,
it's faster. It's not such fun though.
Paul JK
Max Crittenden
Toyama <bo...@paul.spu.edu> wrote, among other things:
> Well it doesn't PROVE anything, but it at least tells you that it makes
> sense that 'FU' is pronounced bilabially (at least to my experience).
>
Just to help beat this topic to death, when I was in Kyoto I was intrigued
to note that "coffee" was translated not as KO FI but as KO HI. Is this
standard throughout Japan?
--
Max Crittenden
"Every hole a slot, every resistor a pot."
--SRI engineering proverb
Tom Rubinstein
>In article <3glltt$m...@agate.berkeley.edu>, co...@euler.Berkeley.EDU (Coby (Jacob) Lubliner) writes:
>As a matter of intentional discourtesy, with Americans whose names end
>in "-stein", I always make at least one attempt to pronounce it like a
>beer "stein", just to see how strongly they insist on the "-steen"
>pronunciation.
Interesting! I always pronounce my name as ending in stein (as in beer
stein) and I strongly insist that people not pronounce the last syllable
as "steen".
>
>-- Richard
>
>(If my employer holds these views, it hasn't told me.)
--Tom
Mark Odegard
(Keith Ivey) writes:
I've noticed this all my life. Last time I looked, the
Encyclopaedia Britannica still insists on listing Ludwig I &
II of Bavaria under "Louis." I remember learding about the
kings of Sweden as "Charles" but currently, it's King Carl
XVI (not Charles XVI). The Crown Prince of Spain is Don
Felipe, but the Kings of Spain are all known as Philip;
Philip II in particular has been rather demonized in English
history.
I *think* that the modern style--for English--is to take the
name directly, and no longer translate (except for Popes).
Historic forms remain in place. It remains Ivan the
Terrible and not Ivan Grozny. The appelation "The Great"
similarly remains translated (Alfred, Peter), excepting, of
course, "Charlemagne."
BTW: Does the name of the late King Baudoin of Belgium
translate to "Baldwin?"
Maelstrom
Well what if they are INCAPABLE of pronouncing your name correctly?
: --
: Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
: file://ee.newcastle.edu.au/pub/www/Moylan.html
--
Paul Tanenbaum
>Khrushchev (pronounced Kroosh-chev in the US and Kroosh-choff in the UK).
Off on my own tangent, I was fascinated (and sickened) to learn from
Keith Ivey
: I saw [the transliteration of "Khrushchev"] in a German
: newspaper: Kruschtschow. Note how the single Russian letter
: "shcha" gets stretched into four in English, and seven in
: German!
Note also that the first letter (generally transliterated as
"kh" in English) is represented as a simple "k". How do the
Germans distinguish the two Cyrillic letters we show as "k"
(which looks like a "K") and "kh" (which looks like an "X")?
Why don't they use "ch" for the "X", since that represents
approximately the same sound in German?
--Keith Ivey <kci...@cpcug.org>
Washington, DC
Keith Ivey
: The British are well known for their deliberate Anglicizing of foriegn
: names (like In-juh for India).
"India", however you pronounce it, is not a foreign name. It's
the English name for the country. The Hindi name is something
like "Bharat", I think.
Mark Odegard
>
Look up the Library of Congress catalogue entry for Tschikovsky, Peter
Ilych. It'll be under Chaiikovskii (or something close to that).
Tschikovsky (my default spelling) can be seen as Tschaikowsky as well.
I remember Vladimir Nabokov kvetching about how Marc Chagall
transliterated his last name (something like "Shaygall" is closer).
There is nearly zero consistency anywhere for transliteration of Russian
names. Alexander Nevsky but Aleksander Solzhenitsyn.
I understand the Bolsheviks toyed with junking Cyrillic letters for
Roman about the same time as they junked the Julian Calender for the
Gregorian. There was some sort of "reform," however, where some letters
were discarded. My memory of this is all quite foggy, dating back more
than twenty years to a world lit course I took.
Jonathan Ryshpan
>The question can be expanded. For example, I am never quite
>sure, again when speaking in English, whether to give such famous
>"French" names as Schweitzer, Schlumberger or Francescatti their
>(1) French, (2) original (i.e. German, Italian or the like), or
>(3) anglicized original pronunciation. Similar examples can be
>found for other languages.
English spelling being what it is, the only reliable way to find out how
to pronounce a name is to find the tradition. If the name belongs to a
person, one has to ask them. Otherwise, ask the locals.
The American employees of Schlumberger pronounce it Shlum'ber-zhay',
(u as in up, ber as in Bert, and ay as in hay). The stress is almost
equal but somewhat heavier on the last syllable than on the others.
You (as a Berkeleyite) are surely familiar with Moeser (pronounced
Mow-zhur, mow as in mow [the lawn], ur as in fur) Lane. There's
Houston TX and Houston (pronounced House-ton) St in NY.
There's a whole family of streets in Chicago named after famous cultural
figures, all pronounced wrong, probably on purpose. The only ones I
remember are Mozart (Ma-zert, Ma as in ma and pa, zert as in desert) and
Goethe (Go-ee-thee, ee as in see).
Please excuse my ignorance of the IPA and other useful tools.
Jonathan Ryshpan j...@sirius.com
(Ryshpan rhymes with dishpan.)
"And God fulfills himself in many ways
Lest one good custom should corrupt the world."
-- Tennyson
Mark Brader
> > in "-stein", I always make at least one attempt to pronounce it like a
>
> Interesting! I always pronounce my name as ending in stein (as in beer
For further information, please see the 1974 movie Young Frankenstein. :-)
--
Mark Brader "Hacking for 8 years gives a guy a memory.
m...@sq.com If you was with a woman -- I'd've noticed."
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto PHANTOM LADY
This article is in the public domain, and you can keep it.
P. K. W. Tan (Dr)
: In article <3grl56$1...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> pe...@fourier.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan) writes:
: This makes me curious. Are you offended if you are called "Pierre" by
: some Frenchman? or PAY-ter by some German? or "Pedro" by some Spanish
: speaker?
I am not the original Peter mentioned by Furue Ryo, but my name
is Peter. I would certainly not be offended if when speaking
in German I was referred to as `Pay-ter', of in French `Pierre', etc.
What is more interesting is that there are different ways of
pronouncing the name in the different accents of English! In
my own accent, the /p/ and /t/ are both VOICELESS and ASPIRATED,
and the final <r> is not pronounced. The vowels are fairly `pure'
(i.e. not diphthongised) vowels. I am not very fond of people
who voice the /t/, or put in a strong /r/ sound, or diphthongise
the the first vowel. I can just tolerate the /t/ pronounced as
a glottal stop. Grr! But of course, there's nothing that I
can do about it.
Anybody else in the same or similar predicament?
Peter Tan
Singapore
Ivan A Derzhanski
>A friend of mine who is
>majoring in Runssian said that "Tchaikovsky" should be pronounced
>_chee-KOF-skee_. The spelling "chai" is pronounced _cha-i_ as in
>"chaika" if it has a stress, but it is pronounced _chee_ if not.
That may be the case in Runssian (whatever that may be), but in Russian
it is not. Next time you meet that Runssian major of a friend of yours,
tell him to claim his tuition fee back from his school.
--
`I'm sendin a flood tae pit an end tae it aw. But dinny worry yersel, Noah.'
Ivan A Derzhanski (i...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk) (J Stuart, _Auld Testament Tales_)
* Centre for Cognitive Science, 2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, UK
* Cowan House E113, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Pk Rd, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
Furue Ryo
| mlo...@ix.netcom.com (Mark Odegard) wrote:
| >
| [...]
| >
| > Look up the Library of Congress catalogue entry for Tschikovsky, Peter
| ^^^^^^^^^^^^
| > Ilych. It'll be under Chaiikovskii (or something close to that).
| > Tschikovsky (my default spelling) can be seen as Tschaikowsky as well.
|
| AHA.
|
| This explains something that puzzled me for the last 3 months.
| I listened to an interview with an American woman whose name
| I don't remember. She was an expert on classical music.
| The 1/2 hour talk with her was about Tschaikovsky's life
| and music. She was quite knowledgeable, said several
| things I didn't know and generally presented the facts
| in an interesting manner. BUT in every sentence she kept
| referring to somebody called Tscheekovsky. I just couldn't
| understand how somebody could spend years studying music
| and not know how to pronounce Tschaikovsky's name.
|
| Chaika - seagull, a beautiful Russian word.
| What the hell is Chiko?
|
| I can only assume that she has never spoken with a Russian
| or any European about Tschaikovsky in her life.
Oh, probably the American woman was right. A friend of mine who is
majoring in Runssian said that "Tchaikovsky" should be pronounced
_chee-KOF-skee_. The spelling "chai" is pronounced _cha-i_ as in
"chaika" if it has a stress, but it is pronounced _chee_ if not.
Ryo
Paul J. Kriha
> Ilych. It'll be under Chaiikovskii (or something close to that).
> Tschikovsky (my default spelling) can be seen as Tschaikowsky as well.
AHA.
This explains something that puzzled me for the last 3 months.
I listened to an interview with an American woman whose name
I don't remember. She was an expert on classical music.
The 1/2 hour talk with her was about Tschaikovsky's life
and music. She was quite knowledgeable, said several
things I didn't know and generally presented the facts
in an interesting manner. BUT in every sentence she kept
referring to somebody called Tscheekovsky. I just couldn't
understand how somebody could spend years studying music
and not know how to pronounce Tschaikovsky's name.
Chaika - seagull, a beautiful Russian word.
What the hell is Chiko?
I can only assume that she has never spoken with a Russian
or any European about Tschaikovsky in her life.
Paul JK
Olivier Cremel
In article <3h967p$9...@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mlo...@ix.netcom.com (Mark Odegard) writes:
> I remember Vladimir Nabokov kvetching about how Marc Chagall
> transliterated his last name (something like "Shaygall" is closer).
It makes sense though considering he was living in France. Transliteration
does not have to be anglocentric.
--
Olivier.
=============================================================================
"Tel se cuide chauffer qui s'art"
00nzwi...@bsuvc.bsu.edu
> writes:
>
>>
>>Pascal MacProgrammer (stev...@bud.indirect.com) wrote:
>>
>>: I saw [the transliteration of "Khrushchev"] in a German
>>: newspaper: Kruschtschow. Note how the single Russian letter
>>: "shcha" gets stretched into four in English, and seven in
>>: German!
>>
>>Note also that the first letter (generally transliterated as
>>"kh" in English) is represented as a simple "k". How do the
>>Germans distinguish the two Cyrillic letters we show as "k"
>>(which looks like a "K") and "kh" (which looks like an "X")?
>>Why don't they use "ch" for the "X", since that represents
>>approximately the same sound in German?
>>
>>--Keith Ivey <kci...@cpcug.org>
>> Washington, DC
>>
>>
>
> Look up the Library of Congress catalogue entry for Tschikovsky, Peter
> Ilych. It'll be under Chaiikovskii (or something close to that).
> Tschikovsky (my default spelling) can be seen as Tschaikowsky as well.
(remainder deleted)
As you commented further along, this is old information. LC used to use
Chaikovskii, but it has been revised to Tchaikovsky. LC had its own
transliteration rules that differed completely from any one else's. The
problem was compounded by a rule that if the Russian had become famous as a
citizen of an adopted country, the transliteration he, himself used was to be
accepted. Thus we had Igor Stravinskii, who was famous while still in Russia,
but Soulima Stravinsky, his son and look alike, who is a music professor at
University of Illinois. Other Russians had German transliterations accepted at
Lib of Cong. That has all been changed, but I don't know the new rules.
Incidentally, no matter the transliteration you choose, in a research library
there will be a cross reference leading from the transliteration to the one
accepted by the library. (Librarians call this authority control; establishing
authority for names consumes an extraordinary amount of time for catalogers and
this work is what distinguishes a library catalog from a computer data file.)
--
Nyal Z. Williams
00nzwi...@bsuvc.bsu.edu
Mark Odegard
writes:
/'pitur/ (pee-tur) is how I pronounce it. Like most Americans, I
pronounce the r, but it's a rather soft one in this case. Do you
pronounce it /'pit@/ (pee-tuh), like the middle eastern bread?
you...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
(Holo`
>In article <D3Eoy...@world.std.com>, j...@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman)
>wrote:
>> Down with the Foreign Names for Foreign Things movement! People
>> speaking English are entitled to English names for people --
>> Khrushchev as well as Napoleon, Caesar, and Aristotle.
>heh. well, most native american names were considered so
>why not do that for other foreign names? christopher columbus
Rita Streich -> Maggie String
the Strausses -> John (1 & 2), Dick and Oscar Ostrich
and Elizabeth Schwartzkopff -> Betty Blackhead
No thanks.
Hugh Young
Aotearoa / Nuclear-free New Zealand
Paul J. Kriha
OL, airing-our-gripes-time....
The wallies on VOA are a reliable suppliers of myrrh over here.
The latest gem: "Borishelsin".
Their "Special English" is something unbelievable.
They hope that making wide gaps between the mangled,
mispronounced and slurred words makes the speach
easier to understand. Then it's broadcast to the
English speaking community where the last vino in the
street believes he can speak better English then they do.
What a disservice to the US PR.
I have heard many US radio, cultural, sport etc. commentators
speaking with excellent "international English".
Where do VOA get these people? They must be scraping
the wrong barrel.
Paul JK
Kay Dekker
>Yeah, sure, and Giuseppe Verdi becomes Joe Green,
>Rita Streich -> Maggie String
This is a little to the side, I know; but the leader of the Amadeus
String Quartet (named after W A Mozart, of course) reported that
occasionally he would receive mail addressed to "Mr Amadeus String".
Kay
--
Did I drink some poison/ that I don't remember now?/ Is there blood on my
hands?/ No, my hands are clean./ Did I do something in another lifetime/
that was really really mean? -- Laurie Anderson: Poison
Peter Schneider
: In article <3gp9ra$m...@icmv.intellicorp.com> tre...@intellicorp.com
writes: : >In article <3glltt$m...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
co...@euler.Berkeley.EDU (Coby (Jacob) Lubliner) writes:
: >As a matter of intentional discourtesy, with Americans whose names end
: >in "-stein", I always make at least one attempt to pronounce it like a
: >beer "stein", just to see how strongly they insist on the "-steen"
: >pronunciation.
: Interesting! I always pronounce my name as ending in stein (as in beer
: stein) and I strongly insist that people not pronounce the last syllable
: as "steen".
Very interesting. Would support the social theory of the -stein issue:
I thought that the "steen" vs "stayn" pronunciation of the -stein names was
also an issue of prestige. My employer told me that "stayn" were the more
prestigious (read: richer) or privileged ones, while the "steen"s were the
less privileged. This may have changed, or never have been true, or true
depending on who you ask etc. Can somebody comment on that? (I guess the
above "rule" may be restricted to New York city).
Peter
P.S. Perhaps "stayn" is closer to standard German, while "steen" is Yiddish?
--
/ Peter Schneider [] Englisches Seminar \
| E-Mail: psch...@es.unizh.ch [] Universitaet Zurich |
| Phone: (41 1) 257 3554 [] Plattenstrasse 47 |
\ Fax: (41 1) 262 1204 [] CH-8032 Zurich/Switzerland /
Furue Ryo
| In article <3h967p$9...@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mlo...@ix.netcom.com (Mark Odegard) writes:
| > In <3h94uf$d...@news1.digex.net> kci...@cpcug.digex.net (Keith Ivey)
| > writes:
| >
| >>
| >>Pascal MacProgrammer (stev...@bud.indirect.com) wrote:
| >>
| >>: I saw [the transliteration of "Khrushchev"] in a German
| >>: newspaper: Kruschtschow. Note how the single Russian letter
| >>: "shcha" gets stretched into four in English, and seven in
| >>: German!
| >>
|
| [deleted]
|
| [...] The
| problem was compounded by a rule that if the Russian had become famous as a
| citizen of an adopted country, the transliteration he, himself used was to be
| accepted. Thus we had Igor Stravinskii, who was famous while still in Russia,
| but Soulima Stravinsky, his son and look alike, who is a music professor at
| University of Illinois. Other Russians had German transliterations accepted at
| Lib of Cong. That has all been changed, but I don't know the new rules.
| Incidentally, no matter the transliteration you choose, in a research library
| there will be a cross reference leading from the transliteration to the one
| accepted by the library. (Librarians call this authority control; establishing
| authority for names consumes an extraordinary amount of time for catalogers and
| this work is what distinguishes a library catalog from a computer data file.)
I wonder why the Russians do not make for themselves a standard of Roman
transliteration. Or is it just that the Russians did make a standard
but you don't use it?
We Japanese have two systems of transliteration: one was made by an
American about a hundred years ago and the other was made by the
government more recently. (The former is much more popular.) Thanks to
them, transliteration of Japanese names is, if not completely, consistent.
Ryo
Mark Odegard
furu...@ccsr.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Furue Ryo) writes:
[much deleted, much of it interesting]
>We Japanese have two systems of transliteration: one was made by an
>American about a hundred years ago and the other was made by the
>government more recently. (The former is much more popular.) Thanks to
>them, transliteration of Japanese names is, if not completely,
consistent.
>
>Ryo
>
Perhaps this is the venue to ask the question about those final
syllables. Ex-Prime Minister Takeshita. /t@'keSt@/ (tuh kesh tuh) is
how the anchors did it. But to my eyes, it's /tEk@'Sit@/ (take a shit
uh). The name is most unfortunate however it is pronounced.
Vincent Mohr
|> Coby (Jacob) Lubliner (co...@euler.Berkeley.EDU) wrote:
|>
|> >sure, again when speaking in English, whether to give such famous
|> >"French" names as Schweitzer, Schlumberger or Francescatti their
|> >(1) French, (2) original (i.e. German, Italian or the like), or
|> >(3) anglicized original pronunciation. Similar examples can be
|> >found for other languages.
Even Frenchmen are unsure and the pronounciation which is used in France
is often some weird mixture of French and German (Schlumberger or Schweitzer
are perfect examples...).
|> My six-year-old son insists on giving his (and my) surname
|> two different pronunciations, depending on whether he is speaking
|> French or English. Everyone else finds this strange; but to him
|> the habit is so natural that we can't break him of it.
This seems doesn't seem strange at all to me. I happen to have an international
surname: "Vincent" which is pronounced in a very different way whether in
English, French or Swedish. I use therefore three different pronounciations
whether I speak in French, English or Swedish (what can be confusing for my
relatives). The main reason for this is that people have difficulties to
understand, remember and call me by my name if I don't adapt its pronounciation
to the language we are speaking together.
|> To me, the most correct solution is to find out how the people
|> in question pronounce their own names, and to use that pronunciation.
|> Of course this can be difficult for names in an unfamiliar language,
|> or for confusing cases such as those Coby mentioned; but politeness
|> demands that we make the effort.
Exactly.
|> My first name, Peter, is pronounced as "peteur" by some French
|> speakers, and I find this offensive. Similarly, many people are
|> offended if you mispronounce their surnames.
|>
|> --
|> Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
|> file://ee.newcastle.edu.au/pub/www/Moylan.html
Vincent Mohr
mo...@mvd.chalmers.se
Furue Ryo
| uh). [...]
Funny!
It's /t@ ke Si t@/ if slowly pronounced, but it's /t@ ke S t@/ in the
ordinary speed. (The transliteration "Takeshita" indicates the former.)
Ryo
Alan D Corre
>In article <3hgte6$8...@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> mlo...@ix.netcom.com (Mark Odegard) writes:
>
>| In <FURUFURU.95...@kongming.ccsr.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
>| furu...@ccsr.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Furue Ryo) writes:
>|
>| [much deleted, much of it interesting]
|
>| Perhaps this is the venue to ask the question about those final
>| syllables. Ex-Prime Minister Takeshita. /t@'keSt@/ (tuh kesh tuh) is
>| how the anchors did it. But to my eyes, it's /tEk@'Sit@/ (take a shit
>| uh). [...]
>Funny!
A tourist declares that a group visiting a forest in Russia was shown a
box-tree by a tourist guide who was describing the various trees there, and
said: "And this is *samshit*!" (Stress on last syllable.) They were
impressed and a little shocked at his knowledge of colloquial English, but
it just happens to be the Russian word for "boxwood" (check your dictionary.)
--
Alan D. Corre
Emeritus Professor of Hebrew Studies
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
Glynis Baguley
>
> so that I just don't know your
> with some name equivalent to yours?
Alas! My name seems to be without equivalent. It's Glynis, a Welsh
name which is frequently mispronounced or misspelt even by English
speakers who are unfamiliar with it.
In first-year French at school, we had to use French equivalents, or
near-equivalents, and I got stuck with Marie because my second name is
Mary. I didn't like it because it didn't feel like me, but then Mary
doesn't feel like me either.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
{ Glynis....@oucs.ox.ac.uk }
{ Oxford University Computing Services }
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Truly Donovan
>In article <FURUFURU.9...@kongming.ccsr.u-tokyo.ac.jp> furu...@ccsr.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Furue Ryo) writes:
>>
>> so that I just don't know your
>> feelings about name equivalences. So, are you offended if you are called
>> with some name equivalent to yours?
>Alas! My name seems to be without equivalent. It's Glynis, a Welsh
>name which is frequently mispronounced or misspelt even by English
>speakers who are unfamiliar with it.
>In first-year French at school, we had to use French equivalents, or
>near-equivalents, and I got stuck with Marie because my second name is
>Mary. I didn't like it because it didn't feel like me, but then Mary
>doesn't feel like me either.
It's a good thing I studied French at a different school. I wouldn't have
cared at all for Vraiment.
Truly Donovan
Ivan A Derzhanski
>Chajkovskij is pronounced just like Chakovskij (a Russian writer's name).
I pronounce the first one as [tS;Ij'k<w>ofsk;ij].
>"A" in unstressed syllables after soft consonants is pronounced as something
>between [i] and a schwa.
To be quite precise, it is [I], with both [i] and [e] being regarded
as regional deviations. (The first one even has a name, _ikan'e_.)
It is true that English _ee_ is fairly close, and I admit that I gave
the poster before me less credit than I should have done, although for
the full effect we'd have to find a word where _ee_ occurs in the syllable
before the stress, and there doesn't seem to be any such words in English.
Keith Ivey
: mlo...@ix.netcom.com (Mark Odegard) wrote:
: >
: > Look up the Library of Congress catalogue entry for Tschikovsky, Peter
: > Ilych. It'll be under Chaiikovskii (or something close to that).
: > Tschikovsky (my default spelling) can be seen as Tschaikowsky as well.
: This explains something that puzzled me for the last 3 months.
: I listened to an interview with an American woman whose name
: I don't remember. She was an expert on classical music.
: BUT in every sentence she kept referring to somebody called
: Tscheekovsky.
I don't think it's an American thing. I've never seen "Tschikovsky"
before. Where did you get it, Mark, and why do you like it? If
you're going to be anglocentric enough to use "i" for the /aI/
sound, why not go all the way and write "Chikoffskee"? "Tschikovsky"
seems like a weird hybrid of German, English, and normal Russian-to-
English transliteration.
James Unger
: furu...@ccsr.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Furue Ryo) writes:
: >We Japanese have two systems of transliteration: one was made by an
: >American about a hundred years ago and the other was made by the
: >government more recently. (The former is much more popular.)
Correction: both systems of romanization originated around
1885. The "American" was James Curtis Hepburn, who used the
system that now appears in English secondary literature
about Japan in the third edition of his dictionary. The
other system originated with the Japanese physicist
Tanakadate Aikitsu. In 1937, the cabinet promulgated a
compromise system closer to Tanakadate's; after the
war, this system was reaffirmed by the Yoshida cabinet. Today
it is the ISO standard.
Dai Fred Toyama
> > Well it doesn't PROVE anything, but it at least tells you that it makes
> > sense that 'FU' is pronounced bilabially (at least to my experience).
> >
> Just to help beat this topic to death, when I was in Kyoto I was intrigued
> to note that "coffee" was translated not as KO FI but as KO HI. Is this
> standard throughout Japan?
>
I have no objections to killing this topic, but I just ask that you read
my entire post before commenting on it. I said the Japanese combine the
consonant 'f' and the five vowels this way:
HA HI FU HE NO
This means that the 'F' sounds except for 'FU' are pronounced without
having your upper- and lower- lips touched. The only bilabial remainder
is 'FU'.
By this observation, COFFEE is surely pronounced like KO HI but MT FUJI
can be pronounced like FU JI. Hope this has cleared your confusion.
I feel better now. You can kill this topic. :)
/*****************************************************\
* DAI FRED TOYAMA Computer Science *
* Seattle Pacific University *
* Internet: <bo...@spu.edu> *
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* Human Languages: Japanese, English, Spanish *
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Mark Odegard
writes:
"Tschikovsky" is a typo--but I did it twice. I meant Tschaikovsky. I
really do need reading glasses. I normally type in 18 point Arial,
while Netcom is virtually unreadable.
Stuart Burnfield
Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> wrote:
> (...snip)
>It's a good thing I studied French at a different school. I wouldn't have
>cared at all for Vraiment.
>
>Truly Donovan
>
What *is* the origin of your name, Truly? I looked in vain in the FAQ.
Family name? Mum & Dad just liked it? It's very pretty.
--
Stuart Burnfield What the famous philosophers said about
Voice: +61 9 328 8288 Stuart Burnfield
PO Box 192 Leederville "...nasty, brutish and short"
Western Australia 6903 Hobbes "Leviathan"
P. K. W. Tan (Dr)
: >
: > Look up the Library of Congress catalogue entry for Tschikovsky,
: > can be seen as Tschaikowsky as
: well.
: "Tschikovsky" is a typo--but I did it twice. I meant Tschaikovsky. I
: really do need reading glasses. I normally type in 18 point Arial,
: while Netcom is virtually unreadable.
Excuse me, but am I missing something here? Is `Tschaikovsky'
the normal American spelling? The spelling that I've seen
most often is TCHAIKOVSKY, with TSCHAIKOWSKY occasionally in
some continental editions of his work. (The latter appears
German influenced; the former `Tchai-' possibly French influenced?)
What about the spelling of Chekhov?
Peter Tan
Singapore
P. K. W. Tan (Dr)
: My German Encyclopedia says "Chruschtschov". The transcription of this
:letter (X) : (or its arabic equivalent, for that matter) is inconsitent.
:We have Khomeini as : well as Chomeini, though the latter is far better
:suited for German readers. : Maybe there is some UN-Regulation which gives
:"official" transsciptions vs. : traditional transsciptions?
What about Gadaffi v. Khadaffi v. Gadafy etc.?
P. Tan
P. K. W. Tan (Dr)
: /'pitur/ (pee-tur) is how I pronounce it. Like most Americans, I
: pronounce the r, but it's a rather soft one in this case. Do you
: pronounce it /'pit@/ (pee-tuh), like the middle eastern bread?
Yes and no.
Yes, I pronounce it /'pi:t@/ (PEE-tuh). The Middle Eastern
bread is normally spelt <pitta> (although my dictionary allows
<pita> as an alternative spelling), and therefore I pronounce
it with a short i - i.e. /'PI-t@/ (PIT-uh). So No, not
like the middle eastern bread. Do you pronounce pitta/pita
with a long /i:/ or EE sound?
Peter Tan
Singapore
Irina Rempt
(tr...@lunemere.com) wrote on Re: Name pronunciation
> In article <1995Feb13.1...@onionsnatcorp.ox.ac.uk> g...@natcorp.ox.ac.uk (Glynis Baguley) writes:
>
> >In first-year French at school, we had to use French equivalents, or
> >near-equivalents, and I got stuck with Marie because my second name is
> >Mary. I didn't like it because it didn't feel like me, but then Mary
> >doesn't feel like me either.
>
> It's a good thing I studied French at a different school. I wouldn't have
> cared at all for Vraiment.
I went under my second name, Ruth, at the time, and the teacher
claimed there was no French equivalent so she called me arbitrarily
"Rosalie". Now if there's any name NOT like me... I protested and asked her
to give me a list of French names to choose from, but Rosalie it
remained. Until we did a mail-exchange program with a French school and my
correspondent turned out to be called (you get three guesses, yes,
right the first time) Ruth.
Irina
--
"Well, now that we have seen each other," said the Unicorn,
"if you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you. Is that a bargain?"
"Yes, if you like," said Alice.
- Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
Gareth M. Evans
In article <3i0vq4$h...@nuscc.nus.sg> ellt...@leonis.nus.sg (P. K. W. Tan (Dr)) writes:
P> Mark Odegard (mlo...@ix.netcom.com) wrote: : > : > Look up the
P> Library of Congress catalogue entry for Tschikovsky, : > It'll be
P> under Chaiikovskii (or something close to that). : > Tschikovsky (my
P> default spelling) : > can be seen as Tschaikowsky as : well.
P> : "Tschikovsky" is a typo--but I did it twice. I meant Tschaikovsky.
P> I : really do need reading glasses. I normally type in 18 point
P> Arial, : while Netcom is virtually unreadable.
P> Excuse me, but am I missing something here? Is `Tschaikovsky' the
P> normal American spelling? The spelling that I've seen most often is
P> TCHAIKOVSKY, with TSCHAIKOWSKY occasionally in some continental
P> editions of his work. (The latter appears German influenced; the
P> former `Tchai-' possibly French influenced?)
P> What about the spelling of Chekhov?
P> Peter Tan Singapore
In the cyrillic alphabet, both the composer and the playwright both
start with the same letter (the upside-down "h")
Gareth
--
---
Gareth M. Evans, TEL: +44 1223 428245
Tadpole Technology PLC, FAX: +44 1223 428201
Cambridge Science Park, EMAIL: g...@tadpole.co.uk
Cambridge, CB4 5BB
---
Ruud Harmsen
>From: ellt...@leonis.nus.sg (P. K. W. Tan (Dr))
>Subject: Re: Name pronunciation
>Date: 17 Feb 1995 02:01:08 GMT
>Malte_Borcherding (bor...@i81s12.ira.uka.de) wrote:
>: My German Encyclopedia says "Chruschtschov".
Which is correct.
>What about Gadaffi v. Khadaffi v. Gadafy etc.?
Does anybody know which Arabic letter is used in this name? Gh, Kh or
something else?
Mark Odegard
writes:
>
I posted a followup, Peter. Tchaikovsky seems the "standard" spelling.
Glen Ecklund
:Mark Odegard (mlo...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
:Yes and no.
: Peter Tan
: Singapore
I've never heard it pronounced, nor seen it spelled, as you do.
I've seen pita and pide, and heard /'pit@/ (PEE-tuh), although
the common US pronunciation would have the t sound more like a d.
My dictionaries, including Websters Third Int'l, don't have it.
How does your dictionary say it is pronounced?
--
Glen Ecklund gl...@cs.wisc.edu (608) 262-1318 Office, 262-1204 Dept. Sec'y
Department of Computer Sciences 1210 W. Dayton St., Room 3355
University of Wisconsin, Madison Madison, Wis. 53706 U.S.A.
Mark Brader
> Does anybody know which Arabic letter is used in this name? Gh, Kh or
> something else?
In "More of the Straight Dope" (Ballantine, 1988, ISBN 0-345-35145-2),
Cecil Adams says:
# In standard Arabic, the initial consonant _qaf_ is pronounced
# like a throaty k, midway between the English k and the German
# ch, as in Bach. The second consonant, _dhal_--two _dhals_,
# actually--is pronounced like a double dh, which is similar to
# English th, only with the tongue pulled back a bit behind the
# teeth. Regional pronunciation differences further complicate
# matters. Libyans tend to pronounce _qaf_ like a hard g, which
# has inspired a whole different set of spellings.
[segue into a repeat of an article I posted in the fall]
In his first column on the topic, he lists these 12 spellings:
Spelling Seen in
Gadaafi "I know I've seen it somewhere"
Gadaffi World Press Review
Gaddafi Time
Kaddafi Newsweek
Khadafy Maclean's, New Yorker
Qadaffi Business Week
Qadafi Business Week
Qaddafi New Republic, New Yorker
Qaddhafi New York Review of Books, Wall St. Journal
Qadhafi US News & World Report, Wall St. Journal
Qadhdhafi Middle East Studies Association
Qathafi Libyan UN delegation
And this is just for the surname. A 13th spelling turned up in 1986 when
the gentleman himself answered a school class's letter and the typed name
under the signature was "Moammar El-Gadhafi" -- many publications then
adopted this.
Cecil also attributed the Qadhdhafi spelling to the Library of Congress,
which prompted a letter pointing out that the LOC actually has *32*
variations on the name in its records.
Muammar Gadafi
Moamar Gaddafi
Moamar al-Gaddafi
Mo'ammar Gadhafi
Mo'ammar el-Gadhafi
Muammar Ghadafi
Muammar Ghaddafi
Muammar Ghaddafy
Muammar Gheddafi
Mu'amar al-Kadafi
Muammar Kaddafi
Muammar Kaddafi
Muamar Al-Kaddafi
Moamar El Kadhafi
Moammar El Kadhafi
Moamer El Kazzafi
Moammar Khadafy
Muammar Khaddafi
Muammar al-Khaddafi
Mu'ammar Qadafi
Mu'ammar al-Qadafi
Muammar Qaddafi
Mu'ammar al-Qaddafi
Muammar Qadhafi
M. A. Mu'ammar M. A. M. al-Qadhafi (*)
Muammar al-Qadhafi
Mu'ammar Qadhdhafi
Mu'ammar al-Qadhdhafi
Mu'ammar Al Qathafi
Muammar Al Qathafi
Muammar Quathafi
Moammar Qudhafi
(*) Abbreviated to initials to fit my tabular format. The full name is
Mulazim Awwal Mu'ammar Muhammed Abu Minyar al-Qadhafi. If you must know.
I propose we start calling him "Al".
--
Mark Brader | "I think it's safe to say that no person can hope to
m...@sq.com | achieve basic life competence without consulting my
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto | work on a regular basis." -- Cecil Adams
Original text in this article is in the public domain.