Groj sale

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

In his phonetic blog (http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/) John Wells
has a picture of a roadside sign that says "GROJ SALE", of which he say
"I think this roadside sign would leave most British people nonplussed.
Americans, on the other hand, would presumably find its meaning
transparent.". I think he's probably right about the British people,
but I wonder if he's right about the Americans: do you find the meaning
transparent?


--
athel

[LFS]

I am a non-nonplussed Brit: I am fluent in both AmE and txt so I know
exactly what it means.

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

So you are thoroughly plussed, but no surprise there. However, I doubt
whether you are typical of the sort of person one might meet on the
Clapham omnibus.

--
athel

[jgharston]

Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> In his phonetic blog John Wells... that says "GROJ SALE"
> ... do you find the meaning transparent?

I'm a Brit and can work out what he thinks he's trying to say, but
unless it was my Dad with a cold (he occasionally sarcastically
says "GRIJ"), it has to have two syllables. GARARRJ is the nearest
I can think of.

Otherwise, my immediate thought is: what is GROJ, and is it edible?

JGH

[Jerry Friedman]

It took me a second.

--
Jerry Friedman

[tony cooper]

Tricky question. If I saw a hand-lettered sign with "GROJ SALE" and
an arrow pointing towards a house, I would understand what is meant.
However, I'd be taking in the fact that it's one of those signs made
from a bit of cardboard on a stick and stuck in the ground that appear
every Friday to denote that someone is selling off their unwanted
items. Spelling mistakes abound on those signs.

However, if I saw "groj sale" isolated in some other placement, I'd
wonder if a "groj" was a type of parrot, a tropical fish, or an
immigrant family selling their children. I might sound it out as
"grow-juh".

As in most situations with words, context rules.

What would most British people make of a sign that says "BUTE SALE"?
Or, "BRING AND BY"?




--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[LFS]

No, even with my bus pass, I rarely venture south of the river...

[LFS]

BUTE has me stumped but "bring and buy" sales are well known in Rightpondia.

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 12:24:34 -0500, tony cooper
<tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>What would most British people make of a sign that says "BUTE SALE"?
>Or, "BRING AND BY"?

This British person is baffled by "BUTE SALE" but understands "BRING AND
BY".

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Leslie Danks]

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 12:24:34 -0500, tony cooper wrote:

[...]

> What would most British people make of a sign that says "BUTE SALE"?

I would conclude that the Scottish Nationalist Party are trying to raise
funds to support their independence campaign.

[...]

--
Les
(BrE)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I'm with Laura and Peter on this: bring and by, OK; bute, no idea. If
it were in England I might guess a misspelling of "boot", but American
cars don't have boots, do they?


--
athel

[tony cooper]

A "bute sale" would be selling items from the boot of a car.
Something like a "boot sail". One would not expect to find a copy of
the OED at either, but back copies of "The Sun" may be available.

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On 2/8/2012 12:51 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> If it were in England I might guess a misspelling of "boot"

I was just about to say that this American was stumped, too, when I
realized that was exactly what Tony was getting at. "Bring and buy"
isn't something we have here either.

ŹR

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 18:51:07 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@ifr88.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote:

"Bute" might be an American attempt at a phonetic spelling of "boot",
but it doesn't work. The "u" in "bute" is pronounced "yoo", unlike the
"u" in many people's "flutes".

[LFS]

But..but..as Athel says, cars don't have boots in the US! They have
trunks, don't they? When did that change? Do they now have bumpers
instead of fenders and windscreens instead of windshields? Is all my
arcane knowledge now redundant?

[Dr Nick]

LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes:

> But..but..as Athel says, cars don't have boots in the US! They have
> trunks, don't they? When did that change? Do they now have bumpers
> instead of fenders and windscreens instead of windshields? Is all my
> arcane knowledge now redundant?

As has been pointed out to me, it's a British misconception that they
call "bumpers" "fenders". They invented bumper stickers after all.
They call "wings" "fenders".

Yes, like me, you thought they'd call the bit that fends other cars off
the fender. We're wrong.
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk

[James Hogg]

It might just work in East Anglia.

--
James

[Adam Funk]

Same here.


--
There's a statute of limitations with the law, but not with
your wife. [Ray Magliozzi, ep. 2011-36]

[Mark Brader]

Tony Cooper:

>>> What would most British people make of a sign that says "BUTE SALE"?

Peter Duncanson:

> "Bute" might be an American attempt at a phonetic spelling of "boot",

> but it doesn't work. The "u" in "bute" is pronounced "yoo"...

Only after reading Peter's response did it occur to me that "bute" is,
if I remember correctly, phenylbutazone. Perhaps Tony is imagining a
vendor stationed outside a racetrack waiting for someone to come along
wanting to fix a horse race. :-)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "When you're up to your ass in alligators, maybe
m...@vex.net | you're in the wrong swamp." -- Bill Stewart

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[tony cooper]

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:35:05 +0000, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 12:24:34 -0500, tony cooper
><tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>What would most British people make of a sign that says "BUTE SALE"?
>>Or, "BRING AND BY"?
>
>This British person is baffled by "BUTE SALE" but understands "BRING AND
>BY".

Hmm. Is the British boot sale a thing of the past? When in the UK, I
strolled through a few places where automobiles were parked with the
boot open and various items of tat were offered for sale. I had the
impression that this went on every Sunday morning at these places.

A second thought is that "Bute" is not pronounced by Brits to rhyme
with "boot". Do you read it as "Byute"?

I also visited some Bring and Buy sales at a few churches. Didn't buy
any items to bring back, but did snack my way through the tables.
Those were the days when the ladies sold fresh home-made goodies at
the sales.

[Donna Richoux]

I see there are a handful of uses on the Web, such as:

-- I parked in the groj in the building
-- The mail slot is hidden in the groj door
-- Groj music download
-- Their are lost of them in my groj. [My favorite]

--
Best -- Donna Richoux

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 16:25:26 -0500, tony cooper

<tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:35:05 +0000, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
><ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 12:24:34 -0500, tony cooper
>><tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>What would most British people make of a sign that says "BUTE SALE"?
>>>Or, "BRING AND BY"?
>>
>>This British person is baffled by "BUTE SALE" but understands "BRING AND
>>BY".
>Hmm. Is the British boot sale a thing of the past? When in the UK, I
>strolled through a few places where automobiles were parked with the
>boot open and various items of tat were offered for sale. I had the
>impression that this went on every Sunday morning at these places.
>
>A second thought is that "Bute" is not pronounced by Brits to rhyme
>with "boot". Do you read it as "Byute"?
>

Yes, that is how I pronounce it. I know Bute only as a district in
Scotland.
http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/

>I also visited some Bring and Buy sales at a few churches. Didn't buy
>any items to bring back, but did snack my way through the tables.
>Those were the days when the ladies sold fresh home-made goodies at
>the sales.

--

[Katy Jennison]

Yabbut, the person who's mis-spelling "boot" doesn't know that.

--
Katy Jennison

[Peter Moylan]

Think "beaut".

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Peter Moylan]

Dr Nick wrote:
> LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes:
>
>> But..but..as Athel says, cars don't have boots in the US! They have
>> trunks, don't they? When did that change? Do they now have bumpers
>> instead of fenders and windscreens instead of windshields? Is all my
>> arcane knowledge now redundant?
>
> As has been pointed out to me, it's a British misconception that they
> call "bumpers" "fenders". They invented bumper stickers after all.
> They call "wings" "fenders".
>
> Yes, like me, you thought they'd call the bit that fends other cars off
> the fender. We're wrong.

Apparently, then, I've misunderstood the meaning of "fender bender" for
all these years.

[Robert Bannister]

Even "GRAJ" would give us a fighting chance of understanding it. I
thought it was a misprint for "grog".

[Robert Bannister]

"Bring and by" seems pretty obvious, but I can't guess the other.

[Robert Bannister]

On 9/02/12 5:25 AM, tony cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:35:05 +0000, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
> <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 12:24:34 -0500, tony cooper
>> <tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> What would most British people make of a sign that says "BUTE SALE"?
>>> Or, "BRING AND BY"?
>>
>> This British person is baffled by "BUTE SALE" but understands "BRING AND
>> BY".
> Hmm. Is the British boot sale a thing of the past? When in the UK, I
> strolled through a few places where automobiles were parked with the
> boot open and various items of tat were offered for sale. I had the
> impression that this went on every Sunday morning at these places.
>
> A second thought is that "Bute" is not pronounced by Brits to rhyme
> with "boot". Do you read it as "Byute"?

That was indeed the problem. I toyed with "Beaut sale", which sounds
vaguely Australian, but it didn't seem to make much sense.

[Mike Lyle]

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 21:30:54 +0100, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
wrote:

Cripesmite, yer could have a beaut sale.

Oddly, an abbreviation I see round here is "car boot", with the
significant part left to the reader's imagination. It's like what the
French often do to English words: "foot", "pull", and, the other way
round, "shirt".

--
Mike.

[Peter Brooks]

On Feb 9, 2:19 am, Peter Moylan <inva...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid>
wrote:

> Dr Nick wrote:
> > LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes:
>
> >> But..but..as Athel says, cars don't have boots in the US! They have
> >> trunks, don't they? When did that change? Do they now have bumpers
> >> instead of fenders and windscreens instead of windshields? Is all my
> >> arcane knowledge now redundant?
>
> > As has been pointed out to me, it's a British misconception that they
> > call "bumpers" "fenders".  They invented bumper stickers after all.
> > They call "wings" "fenders".
>
> > Yes, like me, you thought they'd call the bit that fends other cars off
> > the fender.  We're wrong.
>
> Apparently, then, I've misunderstood the meaning of "fender bender" for
> all these years.
>

Me too.

[tony cooper]

I'm getting confused here. My question was "What would most British
people make of a sign that says "BUTE SALE"? in response to a question
about what most Americans would make of a sign that says "GROJ SALE".
I thought I was offering a comparable puzzle.

Our cars have boots, but we call them "trunks". However, a "trunk
sale" would be a clothing salesman selling his/her samples or a
fashion house selling sample clothing.

>>
>> A "bute sale" would be selling items from the boot of a car.
>> Something like a "boot sail". One would not expect to find a copy of
>> the OED at either, but back copies of "The Sun" may be available.
>>
>
>But..but..as Athel says, cars don't have boots in the US! They have
>trunks, don't they? When did that change? Do they now have bumpers
>instead of fenders and windscreens instead of windshields? Is all my
>arcane knowledge now redundant?

--

[tony cooper]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 10:19:25 +1100, Peter Moylan
<inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>Dr Nick wrote:
>> LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>> But..but..as Athel says, cars don't have boots in the US! They have
>>> trunks, don't they? When did that change? Do they now have bumpers
>>> instead of fenders and windscreens instead of windshields? Is all my
>>> arcane knowledge now redundant?
>>
>> As has been pointed out to me, it's a British misconception that they
>> call "bumpers" "fenders". They invented bumper stickers after all.
>> They call "wings" "fenders".
>>
>> Yes, like me, you thought they'd call the bit that fends other cars off
>> the fender. We're wrong.
>
>Apparently, then, I've misunderstood the meaning of "fender bender" for
>all these years.

A "fender bender", in the US, is a minor accident. It doesn't make
any difference what part of the automobile was bent, broken, or
damaged. If an American's automobile is in an accident, he/she had a
"fender bender" if there's very little damage to either or both cars.

"Very little damage" does not translate to "Very little cost to
repair".

[tony cooper]

Right. Our churches have "rummage sales" where people bring things to
be sold and buy things that other people brought.

[tony cooper]

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 15:24:16 -0600, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Tony Cooper:
>>>> What would most British people make of a sign that says "BUTE SALE"?
>
>Peter Duncanson:
>> "Bute" might be an American attempt at a phonetic spelling of "boot",
>> but it doesn't work. The "u" in "bute" is pronounced "yoo"...
>
>Only after reading Peter's response did it occur to me that "bute" is,
>if I remember correctly, phenylbutazone. Perhaps Tony is imagining a
>vendor stationed outside a racetrack waiting for someone to come along
>wanting to fix a horse race. :-)

But that's "byute".

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On 2/8/2012 7:37 PM, tony cooper wrote:

> <No...@bestweb.net> wrote:
>> >realized that was exactly what Tony was getting at. "Bring and buy"
>> >isn't something we have here either.
> Right. Our churches have "rummage sales" where people bring things to
> be sold and buy things that other people brought.

--but usually the sellers prefer that people bring things *before* the
sale, not *to* it. The British equivalent is a "jumble sale" (which I
thought was a "jumbo sale" the first time I heard it, and then wondered
why it was so small).

ŹR

[Peter Brooks]

On Feb 9, 4:07 am, Glenn Knickerbocker <N...@bestweb.net> wrote:
> On 2/8/2012 7:37 PM, tony cooper wrote:
>

I remember jumble sales - I haven't encountered one for years:

[OED]
"
jumble, n.1

(ˈdʒʌmb(ə)l)

[f. jumble v.]

1. a.1.a A confused or disorderly mixture or assemblage, a medley;
also, disorder, muddle.

   1661 Glanvill Van. Dogm. xviii, Had the world been coagmented from
that supposed fortuitous jumble.    1678 Cudworth Intell. Syst. i. iv.
§36. 551 There is a confused Jumble of Created, and Vncreated Beings
together.    1711 Lady M. W. Montagu Lett., to Mrs. Hewet (1887) I.
33, I have the oddest jumble of disagreeable things in my head that
ever plagued poor mortals.    1751 Cambridge Scribleriad ii. 184 note,
The Macaronian is‥a jumble of words of different languages, with words
of the vulgar tongue latinized, and latin words modernized.    1882
Floyer Baluchistan 60 The scenery‥is‥a reckless jumble of hills and
rocks of every imaginable shape, size, and colour.

b.1.b collect. sing. Articles for a jumble-sale; also, a jumble-sale
or sales. colloq.

   1931 Times 16 Mar. 1/3 Maternity Hospital, holding annual Jumble
Sale.—Please deluge us with jumble.    1932 Daily Tel. 17 Mar. 1/2 Do
please help us with our Easter Jumble on March 18th by sending
anything saleable, old or new.    1962 [see fête n. 1 b].    1966
Listener 20 Oct. 570/1 This feat of administration, this orgy of
jumble and whist.    1973 J. Burrows Like Evening Gone ii. 27 When did
the scouts have their jumble? I'd have thought every gloryhole‥was
empty.

2.2 A shock, shaking, or jolting; colloq., a ride in a carriage (with
reference to the shaking experienced).

   1674 N. Fairfax Bulk & Selv. 151 The Shows or Phænomena of the
world‥even the worst of its shocks and jumbles.    1800 E. Hervey
Mourtray Fam. II. 139 Mamma has lent me her carriage to go a shopping,
so I wish you would take a jumble with me.    1823 F. Burney Lett. 29
Feb., Going out‥either in brisk walks‥or in brisk jumbles in the
carriage.    1851 J. Colquhoun Moor & Loch (1880) I. 262 The jumble of
the sea made shooting uncertain.    1855 F. Chamier My Travels I. x.
56 The carriage ought to be strong to bear the jolts and jumbles to
which it is subjected.

3.3 Comb., as jumble-letters, letters of a word thrown into disorder
in order to exercise ingenuity in their proper re-arrangement; jumble-
sale, a sale of miscellaneous cheap or second-hand articles at a
charitable bazaar or the like; jumble-shop, a shop where very
miscellaneous goods are sold.

   1893 Q. [Couch] Delect. Duchy 287 Trudgeon that used to keep the
jumble-shop across the water.    1898 Westm. Gaz. 12 Nov. 2/3 Some
cheap articles for a jumble sale.    1899 Daily News 19 July 7/5
Competitions for money prizes for properly placing jumble letters.

"

Also, interestingly, what I hadn't known:

[OED]
"
Jumble, n.2 slang.

(ˈdʒʌmb(ə)l)

[Corruption of John Bull.]

A Black man's nickname for a white man. Also attrib. or as adj.

   1957 C. MacInnes City of Spades i. iii. 17 ‘You're a Jumble, man.‥
That's what we call you.‥ It's cheeky, perhaps, but not so very
insulting.’ ‘May I enquire how it is spelt?’ ‘J-o-h-n-b-u-l-l.’ ‘‥But
pronounced as you pronounce it?’ ‘Yes: Jumble.’    1957 Listener 12
Sept. 402/1 Jumble, a happy corruption of John Bull, is the
Englishman's nickname in the mouths of the thousands of Africans and
West Indians who have flocked to London since the war.    Ibid., The
Jumble capital.    Ibid., An alien and uncomprehending Jumble world.
   1961 M. Dickens Heart of London ii. 190 Get all you can out of the
Jumbles.    Ibid. iii. 294 He feeling his way about the Jumbles, he
got no time to worry about Trinidad.


"

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 18:07:22 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden <athe...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 2012-02-08 17:49:58 +0100, LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> said:

>> I am a non-nonplussed Brit: I am fluent in both AmE and txt so I know
>> exactly what it means.
>

>So you are thoroughly plussed, but no surprise there. However, I doubt
>whether you are typical of the sort of person one might meet on the
>Clapham omnibus.

As an occasional traveller on the East Lynne omnibus I am thoroughly minused
and/or whooshed.




--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2012-02-08 23:17:26 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> LFS wrote:
>> On 08/02/2012 17:24, tony cooper wrote:
>
>>> What would most British people make of a sign that says "BUTE SALE"?
>>> Or, "BRING AND BY"?
>>
>> BUTE has me stumped but "bring and buy" sales are well known in
>> Rightpondia.
>
> Think "beaut".

I did think "beaut", but it didn't help -- hindered, rather. The
problem is that to BrE ears "beaut" and "Bute" sound the same, but
"boot" and "Bute" don't.


--
athel

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2012-02-09 00:36:01 +0000, tony cooper said:

> On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 10:19:25 +1100, Peter Moylan

> [ … ]

> A "fender bender", in the US, is a minor accident. It doesn't make
> any difference what part of the automobile was bent, broken, or
> damaged. If an American's automobile is in an accident, he/she had a
> "fender bender" if there's very little damage to either or both cars.
>
> "Very little damage" does not translate to "Very little cost to
> repair".

Too true. I had a fender bender a couple of years ago. Almost no damage
but it still cost around 500 euros to repair, and presumably about the
same for the other car. Fortunately it was the other driver's insurance
company that paid (the same insurance company as mine, as it happened,
but she was the one who saw her no-claims bonus decreased).


--
athel

[Snidely]

Glenn Knickerbocker <No...@bestweb.net> scribbled something like ...

SoCal has hordes of swap meets, where there is a mix of booths stocked
and manned by professionals, sometimes with bargains, and spots taken by
"one-timers" unloading something that may or may not be recognizable.
The pro's often have their spaces reserved months in advance, the one-
timers do a first-come-first-served queue for the rest of the spaces.

A lot of these happen in the parking lots of community colleges, whom the
organizers pay for the privilege. There are a few dedicated locations.
And these are quite seperate from auction locations, and from 2nd-hand
stores and thrift shops.

My memories of Oregon don't include swap meets, but I won't swear they
weren't happening there.

/dps

[Snidely]

Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> scribbled something like ...

> On 2012-02-08, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> On Feb 8, 9:41 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In his phonetic blog (http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/)  John Wells
>>> has a picture of a roadside sign that says "GROJ SALE", of which he say
>>> "I think this roadside sign would leave most British people nonplussed.
>>> Americans, on the other hand, would presumably find its meaning
>>> transparent.". I think he's probably right about the British people,
>>> but I wonder if he's right about the Americans: do you find the meaning
>>> transparent?
>>
>> It took me a second.
>
> Same here.

I almost had to say it outloud to get it. The schwa fell out somewhere, I
guess.

/dps

[John Holmes]

jgharston wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> In his phonetic blog John Wells... that says "GROJ SALE"
>> ... do you find the meaning transparent?
>
> I'm a Brit and can work out what he thinks he's trying to say, but
> unless it was my Dad with a cold (he occasionally sarcastically
> says "GRIJ"), it has to have two syllables. GARARRJ is the nearest
> I can think of.
>
> Otherwise, my immediate thought is: what is GROJ, and is it edible?

My thought, too. Some kind of Indian or Turkish delicacy?

--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

[R H Draney]

Athel Cornish-Bowden filted:

And "bewt" isn't any better....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[CT]

Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> In his phonetic blog (http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/) John Wells
> has a picture of a roadside sign that says "GROJ SALE", of which he
> say "I think this roadside sign would leave most British people
> nonplussed. Americans, on the other hand, would presumably find its
> meaning transparent.". I think he's probably right about the British

> people, but I wonder if he's right about the Americans: do you find
> the meaning transparent?

I didn't have a clue until I read the whole thread.

And I'd only buy from either a Groj sale or Bute sale if the seller
promised me, on pain of death, that they'd spend the proceeds on a
dictionary and a thesaurus.

--
Chris

[Adam Funk]

Besides, "bumper bender" doesn't rhyme.


--
Some say the world will end in fire; some say in segfaults.
[XKCD 312]

[Adam Funk]

Who dropped all these schwas here? SOMEONE'S GONNA HAVE TO CLEAN THAT
UP!


--
Civilization is a race between catastrophe and education.
[H G Wells]

[Stan Brown]

On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 17:41:42 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> In his phonetic blog (http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/) John Wells
> has a picture of a roadside sign that says "GROJ SALE", of which he say
> "I think this roadside sign would leave most British people nonplussed.
> Americans, on the other hand, would presumably find its meaning
> transparent."

I find its meaning about as transparent as iron. I've never heard
the word "groj", and AHD4 doesn't know it.

While writing this I was struck by the thought that maybe it's a
pseudo-phonetic transcription of "garage". But I don't think I or my
countrymen would take that meaning while whizzing past such a sign by
the side of the highway -- unless the merchandise was prominently
displayed near the highway, in which case the sign would be merely a
puzzling superfluity.


--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Stan Brown]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 10:17:26 +1100, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> LFS wrote:
> > On 08/02/2012 17:24, tony cooper wrote:
>
> >> What would most British people make of a sign that says "BUTE SALE"?
> >> Or, "BRING AND BY"?
> >
> > BUTE has me stumped but "bring and buy" sales are well known in
> > Rightpondia.
>
> Think "beaut".

Town in Montana?

[James Hogg]

Stan Brown wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 10:17:26 +1100, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> LFS wrote:
>>> On 08/02/2012 17:24, tony cooper wrote:
>>>> What would most British people make of a sign that says "BUTE SALE"?
>>>> Or, "BRING AND BY"?
>>> BUTE has me stumped but "bring and buy" sales are well known in
>>> Rightpondia.
>> Think "beaut".
>
> Town in Montana?

But me no buttes.

I found these examples of "bute" in the OED:

2. That which is ‘thrown in’, or given in addition, to make up a
deficiency of value; a premium, compensation, odds.
1483 Cath. Angl. 49 Bute, auctorium, augmentum.

7. Help or deliverance from evil or peril; assistance, relief, remedy,
rescue.
1522 G. Douglas tr. Virgil Æneid (1957) ii. vi. 106 To venquist
folkis is a comfort and bute.


--
James

[tony cooper]

If I see a sign advertising a "Swap Meet", I expect that automotive or
motorcycle parts will be on sale unless the sign adds that some hobby
group - trains, coins, amateur radio, etc - is behind the event.

General merchandise and household stuff is sold at garage sales, yard
sales, and flea markets.

Not that this is a "rule". It's just what I expect based on prior
experience.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Feb 9, 1:02 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@ifr88.cnrs-mrs.fr>
wrote:

Same with American ears, as far as I know. But then, "groj" and
"garage" don't sound the same to American ears either.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On 2/9/2012 3:50 AM, Snidely wrote:
> I almost had to say it outloud to get it. The schwa fell out somewhere, I
> guess.

Somewhere in da U.P., maybe.

ŹR

[R H Draney]

Adam Funk filted:

>
>On 2012-02-09, Snidely wrote:
>>
>> I almost had to say it outloud to get it. The schwa fell out somewhere, I
>> guess.
>
>Who dropped all these schwas here? SOMEONE'S GONNA HAVE TO CLEAN THAT
>UP!

This point cannot be overstressed....r

[R H Draney]

Jerry Friedman filted:
>
>On Feb 9, 1:02=A0am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@ifr88.cnrs-mrs.fr>
>wrote:

>>
>> I did think "beaut", but it didn't help -- hindered, rather. The
>> problem is that to BrE ears "beaut" and "Bute" sound the same, but
>> "boot" and "Bute" don't.
>
>Same with American ears, as far as I know. But then, "groj" and
>"garage" don't sound the same to American ears either.

Depending upon the speaker, "grodge" would be a perfect phonetic spelling....r

[R H Draney]

Adam Funk filted:

>
>On 2012-02-09, tony cooper wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 10:19:25 +1100, Peter Moylan
>><inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>Apparently, then, I've misunderstood the meaning of "fender bender" for
>>>all these years.
>>
>> A "fender bender", in the US, is a minor accident. It doesn't make
>> any difference what part of the automobile was bent, broken, or
>> damaged. If an American's automobile is in an accident, he/she had a
>> "fender bender" if there's very little damage to either or both cars.
>
>Besides, "bumper bender" doesn't rhyme.

No, but "bumper thumper" does...I've heard traffic reports that attributed a
tie-up to a "fender-bender", a "bumper-thumper", and a "paint-scraper" (at first
I thought the last was some kind of road department machinery)....r

[Dr Nick]

tony cooper <tony.co...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:35:05 +0000, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
> <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>
>>On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 12:24:34 -0500, tony cooper
>><tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>What would most British people make of a sign that says "BUTE SALE"?
>>>Or, "BRING AND BY"?
>>

>>This British person is baffled by "BUTE SALE" but understands "BRING AND
>>BY".
> Hmm. Is the British boot sale a thing of the past? When in the UK, I
> strolled through a few places where automobiles were parked with the
> boot open and various items of tat were offered for sale. I had the
> impression that this went on every Sunday morning at these places.

There's a big one just up the road from me every weekend.

> A second thought is that "Bute" is not pronounced by Brits to rhyme
> with "boot". Do you read it as "Byute"?

Yes, and unlike the Sergeant of Police we don't have our heart in our
beuts.

Now I'm wondering what it is that makes us pronounce Bute differently
(apart from an Isle and a Prime Minister).
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk

[Snidely]

tony cooper <tony.co...@gmail.com> scribbled something like ...

> On Thu, 9 Feb 2012 08:49:12 +0000 (UTC), Snidely
> <snide...@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

>>SoCal has hordes of swap meets, where there is a mix of booths stocked
>>and manned by professionals, sometimes with bargains, and spots taken
>>by "one-timers" unloading something that may or may not be
>>recognizable. The pro's often have their spaces reserved months in
>>advance, the one- timers do a first-come-first-served queue for the
>>rest of the spaces.

[...]

>
> If I see a sign advertising a "Swap Meet", I expect that automotive or
> motorcycle parts will be on sale unless the sign adds that some hobby
> group - trains, coins, amateur radio, etc - is behind the event.

We do have that sort of swap meet, too.

> General merchandise and household stuff is sold at garage sales, yard
> sales, and flea markets.

SoCal has those, too. And I know Oregon did (although the flea markets
seemed to be far apart).

>
> Not that this is a "rule". It's just what I expect based on prior
> experience.

Understood, and I probably wouldn't be surprised if the terms were
applied differently just up US 101 a bit, say in Ventura. But what I
related covers the "LA Basin" and at least of "the Inland Empire".

/dps

[Adam Funk]

If someone reverse into a canal, it's a trunk-dunk.


--
Bob just used 'canonical' in the canonical way. [Guy Steele]

[tony cooper]

The only use of "bute" as a word, that I know of, in AmE is the slang
term for Phenylbutazone. What I was doing, though, was using "bute"
as a phonetic misspelling of "boot" just a "graj" is a misspelling of
"garage".

The "bute" drug term may not be pronounced the same "boot", but the
sign writer may have never heard of the drug term.

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-02-08, Peter Moylan wrote:

> LFS wrote:
>> On 08/02/2012 17:24, tony cooper wrote:
>
>>> What would most British people make of a sign that says "BUTE SALE"?
>>> Or, "BRING AND BY"?
>>
>> BUTE has me stumped but "bring and buy" sales are well known in
>> Rightpondia.
>
> Think "beaut".

"Ubu on the Beaut"?


--
By dint of plentiful try...catch constructs throughout our code base,
we are sometimes able to prevent our applications from aborting. We
think of the resultant state as "nailing the corpse in the upright
position". [Verity Stob]

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 10:17:26 +1100, Peter Moylan

<inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>LFS wrote:
>> On 08/02/2012 17:24, tony cooper wrote:
>
>>> What would most British people make of a sign that says "BUTE SALE"?
>>> Or, "BRING AND BY"?
>>
>> BUTE has me stumped but "bring and buy" sales are well known in
>> Rightpondia.
>
>Think "beaut".

The Isle of Beaut?

[John Varela]

That could be a dialect thing. I know some New Orleanians who
pronounce "garage" as "g@RAWdge", where RAW is pronounced as in the
word meaning "uncooked".

--
John Varela

[Katy Jennison]

In BrE a fender-bender ought to be a wing-ding, but I've never actually
heard it called that.

--
Katy Jennison

[Peter Moylan]

In AusE a wing-ding is something sold by fried chicken places.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[franzi]

Peter Moylan <inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote

>LFS wrote:
>> On 08/02/2012 17:24, tony cooper wrote:
>
>>> What would most British people make of a sign that says "BUTE SALE"?
>>> Or, "BRING AND BY"?
>>
>> BUTE has me stumped but "bring and buy" sales are well known in
>> Rightpondia.
>
>Think "beaut".
>

I did, and mentally formed a portmanteau from 'beaut ute' which seemed
very Oz, and probably the same sort of vehicle de campagne as a deuce
coupe in Malibu (wherever that might be).
--
franzi

[franzi]

Katy Jennison <ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> wrote

Not every accident is of the right character, that's why.
--
franzi

[Jerry Friedman]

Okay, to some American ears it would work. I don't recall hearing a
one-syllable pronunciation.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Robert Bannister]

OTOH, looking at the results of my falling asleep on the freeway a few
weekends ago, "wing-ding" is a good description.
(You should've seen the other car)

--
Robert Bannister
There are better ways of waking up

[Robert Bannister]

On 9/02/12 9:07 AM, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:
> On 2/8/2012 7:37 PM, tony cooper wrote:
>> <No...@bestweb.net> wrote:
>>>> realized that was exactly what Tony was getting at. "Bring and buy"
>>>> isn't something we have here either.
>> Right. Our churches have "rummage sales" where people bring things to
>> be sold and buy things that other people brought.
>
> --but usually the sellers prefer that people bring things *before* the
> sale, not *to* it. The British equivalent is a "jumble sale" (which I
> thought was a "jumbo sale" the first time I heard it, and then wondered
> why it was so small).

Which leads neatly back to "trunk sales".


--
Robert Bannister

[Mike Lyle]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 14:37:32 +0100, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
wrote:

>Stan Brown wrote:
>> On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 10:17:26 +1100, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> LFS wrote:
>>>> On 08/02/2012 17:24, tony cooper wrote:
>>>>> What would most British people make of a sign that says "BUTE SALE"?
>>>>> Or, "BRING AND BY"?
>>>> BUTE has me stumped but "bring and buy" sales are well known in
>>>> Rightpondia.
>>> Think "beaut".
>>
>> Town in Montana?
>
>But me no buttes.
>
>I found these examples of "bute" in the OED:

to boot. Allophony will boot us little, yield allography as it may. I
wonder if this is an allophonograph.

>
>2. That which is ‘thrown in’, or given in addition, to make up a
>deficiency of value; a premium, compensation, odds.
>1483 Cath. Angl. 49 Bute, auctorium, augmentum.
>
>7. Help or deliverance from evil or peril; assistance, relief, remedy,
>rescue.

>1522 G. Douglas tr. Virgil Ćneid (1957) ii. vi. 106 To venquist

>folkis is a comfort and bute.

Denis Norden once did a nicely awful shaggy-dog ending with "The booty
is in the hire of the bee-holder."

--
Mike.

[Adam Funk]

...he said, steaming away.


--
It is probable that television drama of high caliber and produced by
first-rate artists will materially raise the level of dramatic taste
of the nation. (David Sarnoff, CEO of RCA, 1939; in Stoll 1995)

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

Please don't abuse the elephants.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Snidely]

franzi <et.in.arca...@googlemail.com> scribbled something like ...

> I did, and mentally formed a portmanteau from 'beaut ute' which seemed
> very Oz, and probably the same sort of vehicle de campagne as a deuce
> coupe in Malibu (wherever that might be).

Malibu is on the beach, of course.

And a 'beaut ute' looks like this?

<http://media.nowpublic.net/images//05/6/056685a512419f4c1cf4110b8b662521.j
pg>

I was expecting something more like
<http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-1960-1969/1964-Land-Rover-Blue-fa-
lr.jpg>

/dps

[John Holmes]

"Snidely" <snide...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9FF56C3465...@88.198.244.100...

A classic ute is more like this:
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/richa306/pictures/thumbs/images/02-FJ-ute.jpg
<http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_t85hV1NR_fU/TSJTf8XenbI/AAAAAAAAB3A/hFlv5R_N1FE/s400/holden%2Bute.jpg>

A later model:
http://forums.justcommodores.com.au/attachments/vy-vz-wk-wl-v2/74958d1259586718-post-ur-utes-dscr-20068.jpg

--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

[Walter P. Zähl]

Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 17:41:42 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>> In his phonetic blog (http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/) John Wells
>> has a picture of a roadside sign that says "GROJ SALE", of which he say
>> "I think this roadside sign would leave most British people nonplussed.
>> Americans, on the other hand, would presumably find its meaning
>> transparent."
>
> I find its meaning about as transparent as iron. I've never heard
> the word "groj", and AHD4 doesn't know it.
>
> While writing this I was struck by the thought that maybe it's a
> pseudo-phonetic transcription of "garage". But I don't think I or my
> countrymen would take that meaning while whizzing past such a sign by
> the side of the highway -- unless the merchandise was prominently
> displayed near the highway, in which case the sign would be merely a
> puzzling superfluity.
>

Reminds me of the story of the fishmonger who wanted to put up a sign
saying "Fresh fish sold here today" and ended up with no sign at all.

/Walter

[Snidely]

"John Holmes" <s...@sig.instead> scribbled something like ...

>
> "Snidely" <snide...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9FF56C3465...@88.198.244.100...
>> franzi <et.in.arca...@googlemail.com> scribbled something like
>> ...
>>
>>
>>> I did, and mentally formed a portmanteau from 'beaut ute' which
>>> seemed very Oz, and probably the same sort of vehicle de campagne as
>>> a deuce coupe in Malibu (wherever that might be).
>>
>> Malibu is on the beach, of course.
>>
>> And a 'beaut ute' looks like this?
>>
>> <http://media.nowpublic.net/images//05/6/056685a512419f4c1cf4110b8b662
>> 521.j pg>
>>
>> I was expecting something more like
>> <http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-1960-1969/1964-Land-Rover-Blue-fa-
>> lr.jpg>
>
> A classic ute is more like this:
> http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/richa306/pictures/thumbs/images/02-FJ-
> ute.jpg

That one looks like a '55 Chevy (or GM) pickup. I'm not sure how much
the details changed in your version.

> <http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_t85hV1NR_fU/TSJTf8XenbI/AAAAAAAAB3A/hFlv5R_N
> 1FE/s400/holden%2Bute.jpg>

That looks like a '55 station wagon that's been daylighted.

>
> A later model:
> http://forums.justcommodores.com.au/attachments/vy-vz-wk-wl-v2/74958d12
> 59586718-post-ur-utes-dscr-20068.jpg
>

I thought the El Camino was dead, but it appears to have been reborn:
<http://www.racingover.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Chevrolet-EL-
Camino-2011-Side-View.jpg>


This is a more typical El Camino:
<http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2012/01/18/09/10/1959
_chevrolet_el_camino-pic-290556712012863893.jpeg>

El Camino was the "Date Pickup" ... the truck for taking your Girl to the
Drive-In or even to the night club.

/dps

[John Holmes]

Snidely wrote:
> "John Holmes" <s...@sig.instead> scribbled something like ...
>>
>> "Snidely" <snide...@gmail.com> wrote in message

GM economises a lot by reusing the same panels in different models around
the world. But often the mechanicals are different.

The first officially recognised Ute here was the 1932 Ford:
http://www.fastlane.com.au/Features/First_ute.htm

I have seen an older one, a 1926 Rolls Royce. Actually, it was built as an
open hearse, but effectively the same construction. Not this one, but
something similar without the canopy on the back:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/g88ber/4555887629/

[tuk...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, February 8, 2012 at 10:41:42 AM UTC-6, athel...@yahoo wrote:
> In his phonetic blog (http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/) John Wells
> has a picture of a roadside sign that says "GROJ SALE", of which he say
> "I think this roadside sign would leave most British people nonplussed.
> Americans, on the other hand, would presumably find its meaning

> transparent.". I think he's probably right about the British people,
> but I wonder if he's right about the Americans: do you find the meaning
> transparent?
>
>
> --
> athel

GROJ = GETTING RID of OLD JUNK

[Tony Cooper]

Athel's post was made in 2012 so it's a bit late to reply or know what
others have replied.

This American, at least, would figure out the meaning very quickly.
Actually, I think it's a clever way to advertise a garage sale. I
pass by dozens of garage sale signs on Fridays and Saturdays and never
do more than barely note, peripherally, that they are there.

This one stands out. I might even stop.

[Katy Jennison]

I agree, but I like the translation "Getting Rid Of Junk" (I like that
version better than the unnecessary interpolation of "Old").

--
Katy Jennison

[Peter T. Daniels]

The first American to reply was Jerry and he said yes, after a moment.

The second was Tony, who said essentially what he says above but then as is his
wont wandered off inventing idiotic alternatives like "they're selling a kind
of parrot."

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 12:07:41 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Sunday, July 24, 2016 at 11:39:43 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 07:45:39 -0700 (PDT), tuk...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, February 8, 2012 at 10:41:42 AM UTC-6, athel...@yahoo wrote:
>> >> In his phonetic blog (http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/) John Wells
>> >> has a picture of a roadside sign that says "GROJ SALE", of which he say
>> >> "I think this roadside sign would leave most British people nonplussed.
>> >> Americans, on the other hand, would presumably find its meaning
>> >> transparent.". I think he's probably right about the British people,
>> >> but I wonder if he's right about the Americans: do you find the meaning
>> >> transparent?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> athel
>> >
>> >GROJ = GETTING RID of OLD JUNK
>>
>> Athel's post was made in 2012 so it's a bit late to reply or know what
>> others have replied.
>>
>> This American, at least, would figure out the meaning very quickly.
>> Actually, I think it's a clever way to advertise a garage sale. I
>> pass by dozens of garage sale signs on Fridays and Saturdays and never
>> do more than barely note, peripherally, that they are there.
>>
>> This one stands out. I might even stop.
>
>The first American to reply was Jerry and he said yes, after a moment.

No, the first American to reply was Donna Richoux.

>The second was Tony, who said essentially what he says above but then as is his
>wont wandered off inventing idiotic alternatives like "they're selling a kind
>of parrot."

Have you sold your punctuation marks to pay for a replacement for your
over-used Caps Lock key?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, July 24, 2016 at 3:25:28 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 12:07:41 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Sunday, July 24, 2016 at 11:39:43 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 07:45:39 -0700 (PDT), tuk...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >On Wednesday, February 8, 2012 at 10:41:42 AM UTC-6, athel...@yahoo wrote:

> >> >> In his phonetic blog (http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/) John Wells
> >> >> has a picture of a roadside sign that says "GROJ SALE", of which he say
> >> >> "I think this roadside sign would leave most British people nonplussed.
> >> >> Americans, on the other hand, would presumably find its meaning
> >> >> transparent.". I think he's probably right about the British people,
> >> >> but I wonder if he's right about the Americans: do you find the meaning
> >> >> transparent?

> >> >GROJ = GETTING RID of OLD JUNK
> >> Athel's post was made in 2012 so it's a bit late to reply or know what
> >> others have replied.
> >> This American, at least, would figure out the meaning very quickly.
> >> Actually, I think it's a clever way to advertise a garage sale. I
> >> pass by dozens of garage sale signs on Fridays and Saturdays and never
> >> do more than barely note, peripherally, that they are there.
> >> This one stands out. I might even stop.
> >The first American to reply was Jerry and he said yes, after a moment.
>
> No, the first American to reply was Donna Richoux.

The sequence, as preserved in Google Groups, is Athel-LFS-jgharston(who identifies
themself as a Brit)-Jerry-Tony-LFS (by which time the thread was thoroughly derailed).

> >The second was Tony, who said essentially what he says above but then as is his
> >wont wandered off inventing idiotic alternatives like "they're selling a kind
> >of parrot."
>
> Have you sold your punctuation marks to pay for a replacement for your
> over-used Caps Lock key?

Hunh?

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 12:32:11 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

The sequence was Athel, LFS, Athel, LFS, Athel, Steve Hayes, Donna
Richoux, jgharston, Robert Bannister, John Holmes, Jerry
Friedman...and continued on for many, many posts. It remained
on-topic, though. Boot and bring-and-buy sales were brought up, but
they are in the same vein.

The next-to-last 2012 post was by Stan Brown, and it was on the "gro"
spelling. The last was by Walter P. Zahl about a fishmonger's sign.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.usage.english/gJi6WhFcuOw

>> >The second was Tony, who said essentially what he says above but then as is his
>> >wont wandered off inventing idiotic alternatives like "they're selling a kind
>> >of parrot."
>>
>> Have you sold your punctuation marks to pay for a replacement for your
>> over-used Caps Lock key?
>
>Hunh?

[Peter T. Daniels]

After Walter P. Zaehl were Snidely and John Holmes.

Obviously this is a matter for those computer engineers who care about such things.

> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.usage.english/gJi6WhFcuOw
>
> >> >The second was Tony, who said essentially what he says above but then as is his
> >> >wont wandered off inventing idiotic alternatives like "they're selling a kind
> >> >of parrot."
> >> Have you sold your punctuation marks to pay for a replacement for your
> >> over-used Caps Lock key?
> >Hunh?

Note: No response.

[Peter Moylan]

I am left puzzled as to how the two of you figured this out. Certainly
Donna is the first one to show up in threaded view, but GG just shows a
date and no time for each article so I can't figure out when Donna
responded. There used to be a "show headers" option, but I can no longer
find it. Perhaps it's hidden behind the "Sign in" button, but on
principle I never sign in to Google; I've had enough of my personal
details stolen already.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Peter T. Daniels]

I switched to Tree view, and there was Donna! With just one message. And also
Steve Hayes. And when I went back to Chronological view (my regular setting,
because it's faster), there they both were!

[Tony Cooper]

In my case, I entered "groj parrot" in Google. PTD had whined that I
introduced some extraneous comments and included the word "parrot".

Donna posted on Wed, 8 Feb 2012 at 22:32:06 +0100, and that is seen if
you click "Show Original". Donna, of course, posted on euronet.nl
from the Netherlands since she was (is?) living there at the time.
Those of us who have been in the group for some time know that Donna
is an American from California, though.

Jerry posted on Wed 8 Feb 2012 08:56:01 -0800 (PST) using Google
Groups.

I really don't know the difference between using Google and using
Google Groups since I use Agent as a newsreader and
news.individual.net as a news server. I use Google for a search
engine.

[LFS]

I find it odd that you think it was derailed at that point. It seems to
me that the thread topics are linked through many later posts - garage
sales naturally link to car boot sales and the discussion about
boot/bute is clearly relevant to the spelling of groj.

It's a rather pleasant thread, IMO. There's some useful identification
of AmE/BrE differences, some humour and some word play, a good
illustration of aue as it used to be.

[..]

--
Laura (emulate St George for email)

[Peter T. Daniels]

I simply scrolled to the top of the thread. Don't know why Googling "groj parrot"
would have been the intuitive way to find the pre-Tony messages in the thread.

> Donna posted on Wed, 8 Feb 2012 at 22:32:06 +0100, and that is seen if
> you click "Show Original". Donna, of course, posted on euronet.nl
> from the Netherlands since she was (is?) living there at the time.
> Those of us who have been in the group for some time know that Donna
> is an American from California, though.
>
> Jerry posted on Wed 8 Feb 2012 08:56:01 -0800 (PST) using Google
> Groups.
>
> I really don't know the difference between using Google and using
> Google Groups since I use Agent as a newsreader and
> news.individual.net as a news server. I use Google for a search
> engine.

Then you must be pretty dumb. They are nothing alike.

[Peter T. Daniels]

The only threads that don't get derailed as soon as that are the ones where the computer
engineers reminisce among themselves about long-obsolete software and sometimes even hardware.

[LFS]

My point was that the thread in question wasn't derailed IMO. I had a
vague hope that you might explain your criteria for derailment. No matter.

[Jerry Friedman]

...

Not that it makes a difference, but that means I posted before Donna.

Thunderbird shows me a tree view of the whole thread but won't let me
see the old posts--they've expired. However, it does show the time
stamps, all considerately in my time zone. They agree with what you found.

--
Jerry Friedman
"No Trump" bridge-themed political shirts: cafepress.com/jerrysdesigns
Bumper stickers ditto: cafepress/jerrysstickers

[Tony Cooper]

This is not my area at all. Is the time shown the time the post was
created, or the time the post was added to the thread?

If there is a delay in posting to the thread, then a post created by
one person at an earlier time could appear later in the thread than a
post created by a person where that post was immediately added to the
thread.

Again, not my area.

Dunno about the rest here, but I read (or skip over) posts in the
order they appear as Agent lists them. One of the complaints seen
here is "I already said that", but it's an invalid complaint in my
view. If the "already said" appears down the list, then I don't know
that. Dunno why the complaint is made, though. It's not like sheep
are awarded for non-SDC posts.

>Thunderbird shows me a tree view of the whole thread but won't let me
>see the old posts--they've expired. However, it does show the time
>stamps, all considerately in my time zone. They agree with what you found.
--

[snide...@gmail.com]

Donna's post was at 2200 +0100
Jerry's was at 8:56 PST (guess where I am)

Details about posting time, as well as other header information,
are visible if you click on the "More Message options" tic mark
and select "Show original".

>
> This is not my area at all. Is the time shown the time the post was
> created, or the time the post was added to the thread?

In general, IIRC, it is the time it reached the first newserver in its path.
Which is (these days, since about 1998) typically within seconds of
clicking "send". There may be information in the headers about when
the newsclient considered the post to be created.

> If there is a delay in posting to the thread, then a post created by
> one person at an earlier time could appear later in the thread than a
> post created by a person where that post was immediately added to the
> thread.
>
> Again, not my area.
>
> Dunno about the rest here, but I read (or skip over) posts in the
> order they appear as Agent lists them. One of the complaints seen
> here is "I already said that", but it's an invalid complaint in my
> view. If the "already said" appears down the list, then I don't know
> that. Dunno why the complaint is made, though. It's not like sheep
> are awarded for non-SDC posts.
>

"Already said" can only be enforced if everyone reads everything before replying.
Even the most strict of our participants doesn't consistently do that.

> >Thunderbird shows me a tree view of the whole thread but won't let me
> >see the old posts--they've expired. However, it does show the time
> >stamps, all considerately in my time zone. They agree with what you found.

My home reader had hiccuped at least once since then, and the current data
is all from after the earlier articles expired on the server,
so the past is blank in this thread. (I may have archival files somewhere,
but not intended for manual search.)

/dps

[Jerry Friedman]

On 7/25/16 10:36 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 09:04:48 -0600, Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 7/24/16 10:20 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:

[Who was the first American responder on groj sales?]

>>> Donna posted on Wed, 8 Feb 2012 at 22:32:06 +0100, and that is seen if
>>> you click "Show Original". Donna, of course, posted on euronet.nl
>>> from the Netherlands since she was (is?) living there at the time.
>>> Those of us who have been in the group for some time know that Donna
>>> is an American from California, though.
>>>
>>> Jerry posted on Wed 8 Feb 2012 08:56:01 -0800 (PST) using Google
>>> Groups.
>> ...
>>
>> Not that it makes a difference, but that means I posted before Donna.
>
> This is not my area at all. Is the time shown the time the post was
> created, or the time the post was added to the thread?
>
> If there is a delay in posting to the thread, then a post created by
> one person at an earlier time could appear later in the thread than a
> post created by a person where that post was immediately added to the
> thread.

Snidely doesn't think that was much of a problem in 2012. Anyway,
T-Bird agrees with GG on the times.

> Again, not my area.
>
> Dunno about the rest here, but I read (or skip over) posts in the
> order they appear as Agent lists them. One of the complaints seen
> here is "I already said that", but it's an invalid complaint in my
> view. If the "already said" appears down the list, then I don't know
> that.

So either the complaint is invalid, or your practice is.

I try to read everything that's been said in response to a post before I
reply to it, partly just to save the effort of saying something that's
already been said. Sometimes I slip up. Sometimes something's posted
while I was writing.

> Dunno why the complaint is made, though. It's not like sheep
> are awarded for non-SDC posts.

People may feel as if they're being ignored.

[snide...@gmail.com]

On Monday, July 25, 2016 at 12:19:55 PM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 7/25/16 10:36 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 09:04:48 -0600, Jerry Friedman
> > <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 7/24/16 10:20 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> [Who was the first American responder on groj sales?]
>
> >>> Donna posted on Wed, 8 Feb 2012 at 22:32:06 +0100, and that is seen if
> >>> you click "Show Original". Donna, of course, posted on euronet.nl
> >>> from the Netherlands since she was (is?) living there at the time.
> >>> Those of us who have been in the group for some time know that Donna
> >>> is an American from California, though.
> >>>
> >>> Jerry posted on Wed 8 Feb 2012 08:56:01 -0800 (PST) using Google
> >>> Groups.
> >> ...

I admit to having missed that Tony included the times-o-post
in his missive. I read the first and last paragraphs more carefully, though.

> >> Not that it makes a difference, but that means I posted before Donna.
> >
> > This is not my area at all. Is the time shown the time the post was
> > created, or the time the post was added to the thread?
> >
> > If there is a delay in posting to the thread, then a post created by
> > one person at an earlier time could appear later in the thread than a
> > post created by a person where that post was immediately added to the
> > thread.
>
> Snidely doesn't think that was much of a problem in 2012. Anyway,
> T-Bird agrees with GG on the times.
>
> > Again, not my area.
> >
> > Dunno about the rest here, but I read (or skip over) posts in the
> > order they appear as Agent lists them. One of the complaints seen
> > here is "I already said that", but it's an invalid complaint in my
> > view. If the "already said" appears down the list, then I don't know
> > that.
>
> So either the complaint is invalid, or your practice is.
>
> I try to read everything that's been said in response to a post before I
> reply to it, partly just to save the effort of saying something that's
> already been said. Sometimes I slip up. Sometimes something's posted
> while I was writing.
>
> > Dunno why the complaint is made, though. It's not like sheep
> > are awarded for non-SDC posts.
>
> People may feel as if they're being ignored.

Who in AUE would ignore anyone?
(More often the problem is not /enough/ ignoring.)

/dps

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 13:19:51 -0600, Jerry Friedman

I'm not sure how other newsreaders - specifically GG - work, but Agent
does not post new replies until the user refreshes the list by
clicking "Get new headers". If I post a reply that duplicates another
reply already sent, I may not see that reply until I refresh the list.
In the morning (my time), I may read 75 to 100 posts before
refreshing. The morning batch includes the US and many UK posts.

Your system would work if a) you post once a day after most of the
traffic arrives, or, b) if your newsreader adds new posts as they are
sent. Generally, in this newsgroup, the traffic is heavy during the
day but slacks off in the evening (my time). Late in the evening (my
time), the Aussie posts start to come in.

>I try to read everything that's been said in response to a post before I
>reply to it, partly just to save the effort of saying something that's
>already been said. Sometimes I slip up. Sometimes something's posted
>while I was writing.
>
>> Dunno why the complaint is made, though. It's not like sheep
>> are awarded for non-SDC posts.
>
>People may feel as if they're being ignored.

With the poster most likely to complain, that's a self-inflicted
wound.

[Tony Cooper]

I assume you are being sarcastic here. Substitute "be cowardly" for
"ignore".

[snide...@gmail.com]

On Monday, July 25, 2016 at 1:24:06 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > Who in AUE would ignore anyone?
> > (More often the problem is not /enough/ ignoring.)
>
> I assume you are being sarcastic here.

A touch of sarcasm, a touch of seriousness.

/dps