"prunes & prisms" origin?
KB (see signature)
A mailing list to which I subscribe has been speculating on the origin of
the phrase "prunes & prisms". It usually means either an affected way of
speaking or is used to connote extreme respectability. (Supposedly young
ladies were to practice saying "prunes & prisms" to improve their diction
and to acquire a properly aristocratic facial expression.) Anyway,
someone found a mention in Dickens and is speculating that he originated
the phrase. I found it in Little Women, Joyce's Ulysses, Gene Stratton
Porter, and some Peter Gabriel liner notes, but I think the phrase is
older. I have a vague recollection of it being associated with some
Restoration Comedy. Does anyone know where the phrase might have
originated, or at least a citation earlier than Dickers.
--
Kathy Brunetti
The "From" address is a fake, courtesy of my ISP. Here's a real one--remove capital letters to reply. kbr...@ns.REMOVE-TO-REPLY.net
Frances Kemmish
KB (see signature) wrote:
>
> A mailing list to which I subscribe has been speculating on the origin of
> the phrase "prunes & prisms". It usually means either an affected way of
> speaking or is used to connote extreme respectability. (Supposedly young
> ladies were to practice saying "prunes & prisms" to improve their diction
> and to acquire a properly aristocratic facial expression.) Anyway,
> someone found a mention in Dickens and is speculating that he originated
> the phrase. I found it in Little Women, Joyce's Ulysses, Gene Stratton
> Porter, and some Peter Gabriel liner notes, but I think the phrase is
> older. I have a vague recollection of it being associated with some
> Restoration Comedy. Does anyone know where the phrase might have
> originated, or at least a citation earlier than Dickers.
>
I can't help you with your question, but I do recall reading something
similar in a girls' magazine in my youth (which was not earlier than
Dickens, despite what my children may think).
The magazine was probably either Girls' Crystal, or School Friend, and
this rhyme was quoted in a comic strip which featured a Victorian girl.
She was required to repeat, while balancing a book on her head:
"Prunes, prisms and poetry to say
A wilful young lady must learn to obey."
Alas, I am unable to check this reference, as my mother gave all my old
books to a jumble sale.
Fran
N.Mitchum
Frances Kemmish wrote:
-----
> [...] rhyme was quoted in a comic strip which featured a Victorian girl.
> She was required to repeat, while balancing a book on her head:
> "Prunes, prisms and poetry to say
> A wilful young lady must learn to obey."
Perhaps an adaptation of Dickens after all. Bartlett's locates
the line in *Little Dorrit* but only with the singular of "prism":
"Papa, potatoes, poultry, prunes, and prism, are all very good
words for the lips: especially prunes and prism." (Book II,
chapter 5.)
--- NM
Mailed copies of replies always appreciated. (Mailers: drop HINTS.)
Brian J Goggin
>Frances Kemmish wrote:
>-----
>> [...] rhyme was quoted in a comic strip which featured a Victorian girl.
>> She was required to repeat, while balancing a book on her head:
>> "Prunes, prisms and poetry to say
>> A wilful young lady must learn to obey."
>>.....
>
>Perhaps an adaptation of Dickens after all. Bartlett's locates
>the line in *Little Dorrit* but only with the singular of "prism":
>"Papa, potatoes, poultry, prunes, and prism, are all very good
>words for the lips: especially prunes and prism." (Book II,
>chapter 5.)
The OED gives that as its earliest citation, commenting "Thence,
applied to a prim and mincing manner of speaking, and to superficial
_accomplishments'. Also adj. phrs. prunes and prismy, pruny and
prismy."
Here are some of the later citations:
===begins=====
1888 Brit. Weekly 28 Sept. 353/1 He has none of the _prunes and prism'
style, and is, perhaps, addicted to strong language.
1892 W. G. Jenkins in Amer. Ann. Deaf Apr. 91 Surface accomplishments,
the prunes and prisms of education.
_1909 D. H. Lawrence Collier's Friday Night (1934) i. 8 She says this
in a very quaint _prunes-and-prisms' manner, with her chin in the air
and her hand extended.
1922 Joyce Ulysses 365 Say prunes and prisms forty times every
morning, cure for fat lips.
1931 Time & Tide 4 July 802/2 A tougher-minded generation than ours
may find it altogether too prunes-and-prismy.
1940 G. D. H. & M. Cole Counterpoint Murder v. 50 She's forty if she's
a day, and all pruny and prismy.
===ends=====
bjg
John Davies
In article <no-junk-email-0...@ppp36.ns.net>, "KB (see
signature)" <no-jun...@ns.net> writes
>A mailing list to which I subscribe has been speculating on the origin of
>the phrase "prunes & prisms". It usually means either an affected way of
>speaking or is used to connote extreme respectability. (Supposedly young
>ladies were to practice saying "prunes & prisms" to improve their diction
>and to acquire a properly aristocratic facial expression.) Anyway,
>someone found a mention in Dickens and is speculating that he originated
>the phrase. I found it in Little Women, Joyce's Ulysses, Gene Stratton
>Porter, and some Peter Gabriel liner notes, but I think the phrase is
>older. I have a vague recollection of it being associated with some
>Restoration Comedy. Does anyone know where the phrase might have
>originated, or at least a citation earlier than Dickers.
>
Dickens. Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase & Fable also refers to the
Dickens quote, again with no earlier citation. Here it is (from Little
Dorritt):
"_Papa_ gives a very pretty form to the lips. _Papa, potatoes, poultry,
prunes and prisms_ are all very good for the lips; especially _prunes
and prisms_"
But as Brewer makes clear, (in the article on "Nimini-pimini") the idea
that words with 'P' in them improve the looks of the speaker is older
than Dickens.
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
Gwen Lenker
N.Mitchum <HINTS...@mail.lafn.org> wrote in article
<34AD58...@mail.lafn.org>...
>
> Perhaps an adaptation of Dickens after all. Bartlett's locates
> the line in *Little Dorrit* but only with the singular of "prism":
> "Papa, potatoes, poultry, prunes, and prism, are all very good
> words for the lips: especially prunes and prism." (Book II,
> chapter 5.)
Does Dickens mention that after a certain age "tangerines" and
"glass" are ever so much better?
Mark Odegard
[Posted, e-mailed] **Note Spam Trap below** On Fri, 02 Jan 1998
19:02:31 -0800, spam...@merriewood.com (Mimi Kahn) in
<34b3aa0e...@news.mindspring.com> wrote
|On Fri, 02 Jan 1998 15:12:14 -0500, Frances Kemmish
|<arc...@iconn.net> wrote:
|
|>Alas, I am unable to check this reference, as my mother gave all my old
|>books to a jumble sale.
|
|"Jumble sale" -- what a marvelous expression! What more can you tell
|me about it?
The *exact* translation into AmE is "rummage sale". it's the
annual church sale held in the parish hall/church basement.
The British "jumble" is almost as good as "rummage". The
merchandise is a jumble of everything, but you also rummage
through it all to find something worth buying.
AHD3 gives "a confusion of miscellaneous articles" for "rummage"
the noun.
--
Mark Odegard.
My real address doesn't include a Christian name.
Emailed copies of responses are very much appreciated.
Truly Donovan
>On Fri, 02 Jan 1998 15:12:14 -0500, Frances Kemmish
><arc...@iconn.net> wrote:
>
>>Alas, I am unable to check this reference, as my mother gave all my old
>>books to a jumble sale.
>
>"Jumble sale" -- what a marvelous expression! What more can you tell
>me about it?
Think "garage sale," "yard sale," "flea market."
--
Truly Donovan
reply to truly at lunemere dot com
Frances Kemmish
Truly Donovan wrote:
>
> On Fri, 02 Jan 1998 19:02:31 -0800, spam...@merriewood.com (Mimi
> Kahn) wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 02 Jan 1998 15:12:14 -0500, Frances Kemmish
> ><arc...@iconn.net> wrote:
> >
> >>Alas, I am unable to check this reference, as my mother gave all my old
> >>books to a jumble sale.
> >
> >"Jumble sale" -- what a marvelous expression! What more can you tell
> >me about it?
>
> Think "garage sale," "yard sale," "flea market."
>
> --
The local Connecticut idiom is 'tag sale'.
The only distinction I would make is that I think jumble sales are
invariably conducted by organisations to raise money for deserving
causes. If you were to sell things on your front lawn for your own
profit, I don't know what you would call that. It wasn't something we
did, when I lived in England.
My nephew sold his old toys in a car-boot sale. This seems to be pretty
common now. You drive up to a large car-park, and open up your boot
[trunk], and sell the contents. You have to pay some modest amount to
the organisers - a flat fee, I think, rather than a commission.
I hear 'trunk sale' over here, but it doesn't seem to mean the same
thing. For instance, my local yarn store has 'trunk sales'; this means
she has sample garments made by designers, or featured in a knitting
magazine. You can try them on, but you can't buy them. You are then
expected to rush off and buy the necessary yarn to make them.
Fran
Daniel P. B. Smith
In article <no-junk-email-0...@ppp36.ns.net>,
KB (see signature) <no-jun...@ns.net> wrote:
>A mailing list to which I subscribe has been speculating on the origin of
>the phrase "prunes & prisms". It usually means either an affected way of
>speaking or is used to connote extreme respectability. (Supposedly young
>ladies were to practice saying "prunes & prisms" to improve their diction
>and to acquire a properly aristocratic facial expression.) Anyway,
>someone found a mention in Dickens and is speculating that he originated
>the phrase. I found it in Little Women, Joyce's Ulysses, Gene Stratton
>Porter, and some Peter Gabriel liner notes, but I think the phrase is
>older. I have a vague recollection of it being associated with some
>Restoration Comedy. Does anyone know where the phrase might have
>originated, or at least a citation earlier than Dickers.
1) I thought it was "prisms and pilgrims."
2) I assume it has something to do with properly rolling the "r."
3) While we're at it, does anyone know if Stephen King made up the
phrase "He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists
he sees the ghosts?" Or was it really used to train kids to overcome
stammering? (A character in "It" was made to recite this
as a kid.)
--
Daniel P. B. Smith
dpbs...@world.std.com
Robert M. Wilson
In article <34AE5643...@iconn.net>,
Frances Kemmish <arc...@iconn.net> wrote:
>Truly Donovan wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 02 Jan 1998 19:02:31 -0800, spam...@merriewood.com (Mimi
>> Kahn) wrote:
>>
>> >On Fri, 02 Jan 1998 15:12:14 -0500, Frances Kemmish
>> ><arc...@iconn.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >>Alas, I am unable to check this reference, as my mother gave all my old
>> >>books to a jumble sale.
>> >
>> >"Jumble sale" -- what a marvelous expression! What more can you tell
>> >me about it?
>>
>> Think "garage sale," "yard sale," "flea market."
>>
>> --
>
>The local Connecticut idiom is 'tag sale'.
>
>The only distinction I would make is that I think jumble sales are
>invariably conducted by organisations to raise money for deserving
>causes. If you were to sell things on your front lawn for your own
>profit, I don't know what you would call that. It wasn't something we
>did, when I lived in England.
In NAm a "rummage sale" would be conducted by a charity, usually church, to
sell odds and ends, particularly clothing no longer used by the donors. As far
as I know, the UK and Anzac equivalent is a "jumble sale."
I assume the donors "rummage" through the closets and they are in a "jumble"
at the sale.
I would be surprised to see these terms confused with "garage" or "boot" sales
as the latter are for private profit.
Frances Kemmish
Robert M. Wilson wrote:
>
> In NAm a "rummage sale" would be conducted by a charity, usually church, to
> sell odds and ends, particularly clothing no longer used by the donors. As far
> as I know, the UK and Anzac equivalent is a "jumble sale."
> I assume the donors "rummage" through the closets and they are in a "jumble"
> at the sale.
>
> I would be surprised to see these terms confused with "garage" or "boot" sales
> as the latter are for private profit.
Our local church, in Connecticut, holds a 'Giant Tag Sale' every year as
a fund-raiser. It is just like a jumble sale.
Is Connecticut the only place where all informal sales are known as tag
sales? Other parts of the US seem to have garage sales or lawn sales, or
some other term related to the venue.
The first time we visited the USA, we drove through Vermant. We saw many
signs advertising 'barn sales'. I thought it surprising that so many
people had barns to sell.
Fran
Truly Donovan
>I hear 'trunk sale' over here, but it doesn't seem to mean the same
>thing. For instance, my local yarn store has 'trunk sales'; this means
>she has sample garments made by designers, or featured in a knitting
>magazine. You can try them on, but you can't buy them. You are then
>expected to rush off and buy the necessary yarn to make them.
A more common use of "trunk sale" around here is when a retail
establishment has a manufacturer's representative come in with samples
of merchandise that the retail establishment does not plan to carry in
their inventory. You can order the item through the retail
establishment.
Saks Fifth Avenue used to send me notices for "trunk sales" for
Ferragamo and Bruno Magli. Due to a major lifestyle change, most of
my footwear these days is labeled "L. L. Bean," and I've been taken
off the "trunk sale" mailing list.
N.Mitchum
[mail&post]
Brian J Goggin wrote:
-----
> > [of Dickens and *Little Dorrit* : ]
> >"Papa, potatoes, poultry, prunes, and prism, are all very good
> >words for the lips: especially prunes and prism."
>
> The OED gives that as its earliest citation, commenting "Thence,
> applied to a prim and mincing manner of speaking, and to superficial
> _accomplishments'. Also adj. phrs. prunes and prismy, pruny and
> prismy."
>.....
A name just popped out of my memory. I recall that a character in
*The Importance of Being Earnest* was a "Miss Prism." She was the
housekeeper who lost a manuscript and found a baby, and was wooed
by churchman Chausible ( "chasuble"?).
I see the play was written in 1896. Is it known whether
theatergoers of the time would have made an easy connection
between the lady's name and the phrase coined by Dickens? Then or
now, would the name "Miss Prism" spark any immediate associations
among speakers of British English ?
N.Mitchum
Gwen Lenker wrote:
-----
> > [...]
> > "Papa, potatoes, poultry, prunes, and prism, are all very good
> > chapter 5.)
>
> Does Dickens mention that after a certain age "tangerines" and
> "glass" are ever so much better?
He probably thought that after a "certain age" prunes were more
appopriate and that a "glass" was best avoided by the vain. Or
did you mean the type of glasses one puts on one's nose, or the
glass in which one refuge when the march of time grows too noisy?
Robert M. Wilson
In article <no-junk-email-0...@ppp36.ns.net>,
no-jun...@ns.net (KB (see signature)) wrote:
>A mailing list to which I subscribe has been speculating on the origin of
>the phrase "prunes & prisms". It usually means either an affected way of
>speaking or is used to connote extreme respectability. (Supposedly young
>ladies were to practice saying "prunes & prisms" to improve their diction
>and to acquire a properly aristocratic facial expression.) Anyway,
>someone found a mention in Dickens and is speculating that he originated
>the phrase. I found it in Little Women, Joyce's Ulysses, Gene Stratton
>Porter, and some Peter Gabriel liner notes, but I think the phrase is
>older. I have a vague recollection of it being associated with some
>Restoration Comedy. Does anyone know where the phrase might have
>originated, or at least a citation earlier than Dickers.
>
probably was in general oral use before. It was a phrase to be practised by
young ladies to give lips the ability to enunciate clearly ( I think there is
a word for it, still used for players of wind instruments?). Similar phrases
were "niminypiminy," and various tongue-twisters.
The phrase "full of prunes" was sometimes used for a person who spoke with
such effects, but seems to have been used more often for someone who had
an oral therapeutic problem. A person with ostentatious pronunciation was
referred to as speaking with a "plum (prune) in his/her mouth."
Gwen Lenker
> Gwen Lenker wrote:
> -----
> > > [...]
> > > "Papa, potatoes, poultry, prunes, and prism, are all very good
> > > words for the lips: especially prunes and prism." (Book II,
> > > chapter 5.)
> >
> > Does Dickens mention that after a certain age "tangerines" and
> > "glass" are ever so much better?
> >.....
>
> He probably thought that after a "certain age" prunes were more
> appopriate and that a "glass" was best avoided by the vain. Or
> did you mean the type of glasses one puts on one's nose, or the
> glass in which one refuge when the march of time grows too noisy?
No, I meant the words themselves, and the effect that saying them has
on the lips.
But I just spent some time speaking various words in front of the
mirror, and it appears that my theory might have been incorrect.
I've got to stop saying "Oh!" though.
Jitze Couperus
In article <34B039...@mail.lafn.org>, "N.Mitchum"
<HINTS...@mail.lafn.org> wrote:
>
> I see the play was written in 1896. Is it known whether
> theatergoers of the time would have made an easy connection
> between the lady's name and the phrase coined by Dickens? Then or
> now, would the name "Miss Prism" spark any immediate associations
> among speakers of British English ?
>
>
Methinks we might have a portmanteau of "prim" and "prissy"
in this instance - or at least a subconscious attempt
to make-the-name-fit-the-character.
I'd have to ask Miss Thistlebottom to get a definitive answer..
Jitze
--
If replying, remove spam.filter from above address
Frances Kemmish
My French teacher used to tell us a story (as an aid to pronunciation, I
suppose) about a lady whose mouth was too wide. She went to her doctor,
who advised her to repeat the words 'petites pommes' forty times every
night. After six months, she went back to the doctor, who found that her
mouth was even wider. She had forgotten which fruit the doctor wanted
her to say, and had been saying 'petites poires' forty times a night.
Fran
N.Mitchum
Gwen Lenker wrote:
-----
> No, I meant the words themselves, and the effect that saying them has
> on the lips.
I presumed it was elocution rather than facial remodeliing that
Dickens had in mind here, but now that I've looked up the passage,
I find that you have struck closer to his meaning. The advice was
given by Mrs. General, the genteel widow hired as chaperone by
Mr. Dorrit. ("If her eyes had no expression it was probably
because they had nothing to express.")
When Amy refers to her father as "father," Mrs. General corrects
her, saying, "Father is rather vulgar, my dear. The word Papa,
beside, gives a pretty form to the lips." There follows the
passage quoted earlier. Then, "You will find it serviceable, in
the formation of a demeanor, if you say to yourself in company --
on entering a room, for instance -- Papa, potatoes, poultry,
prunes and prism, prunes and prism."
And on the next page the lady exits the room: "Having delivered
this exalted sentiment, Mrs. General made a sweeping obeisance,
and retired with an expression of mouth indicative of Prunes and
Prism."
------
> But I just spent some time speaking various words in front of the
> mirror, and it appears that my theory might have been incorrect.
>
> I've got to stop saying "Oh!" though.
>.....
It's when you say "Oh, no!" in front of the mirror that you should
start worrying.
John Holmes
Robert M. Wilson <r...@island.net> wrote in article
<68p8dr$e1v$1...@frasier.island.net>...
> The phrase seems first to have been recorded in Dickens' *Little Dorrit*
but
> probably was in general oral use before. It was a phrase to be practised
by
> young ladies to give lips the ability to enunciate clearly ( I think
there is
> a word for it, still used for players of wind instruments?).
'embouchure'
Deirdre Clyde
Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
> While we're at it, does anyone know if Stephen King made up the
> phrase "He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists
> he sees the ghosts?" Or was it really used to train kids to overcome
> stammering? (A character in "It" was made to recite this
> as a kid.)
>
In a college acting class (in 1980, I believe) I was given a list of vocal
warm-ups, including:
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts
With barest wrists and stoutest boasts
He thrusts his fists against the posts
And still insists he sees the ghosts!
Actually, I think the sheet said "a ghost" and I changed it myself, since I
liked it better with the plural. One of my favorites; I still use it to this
day. The list did not credit the author...Stephen King was definitely going
strong in 1980, but when was "It" published?
Deirdre