Computer mouses or mice (or meeces)
abzorba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasher
which describes software which can be operated by a disabled person to
produce text using many devices other than a keyboard. Now, a little
gremlin has changed my term "computer mouses" to "mice". I think that
"mouses" is the correct plural for the mouse of the computer variety,
but he keeps changing it back. He directs me to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_(computing)
in which one source accepts both, and others suggest "mouse devices",
or "pointing devices'.
As quite obviously the last two are not going to be viable, is my use
of "mouses" better than his "mice"? I feel a little peeeved as his
source says that BOTH are acceptable, so why does he keep changing my
choice to his, when I was the one how wrote most of the bloody thing
in the first place? What say you: Mouses, mice, or meece?
Eric Walker
Arguing with Wikipedia fanatics is a losing game. If you get no help on
the Talk pages from others, either go on to some more pleasant phase of
your life, or settle for "mouse devices".
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Skitt
As far as I'm concerned, the plural of "mouse" is "mice". Some computer
nerds disagree. My concerns do not matter, but I see no reason to have
a special plural for the computer devices.
--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://come.to/skitt
R H Draney
I experienced brief disappointment that nobody thought to trademark the word
"mouse" for the computer sort...then you could with legal justification insist
upon "Mouse (TM) brand pointing devices"....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
Jonathan Morton
news:igvbsp$m9j$1...@news.albasani.net...
>
> As far as I'm concerned, the plural of "mouse" is "mice". Some computer
> nerds disagree. My concerns do not matter, but I see no reason to have a
> special plural for the computer devices.
>
unconnected with the rodent, one could understand. But it is quite obvious
how it got its name - and it cannot - so to speak - disclaim the normal
plural.
Regards
Jonathan
Roland Hutchinson
The existence of "mouses" suggests one thing to me: that when the Alto
was deployed the nerds were all still PDP-10 hackers who wouldn't touch a
VAX with a ten-foot pole. Otherwise we would have had the regularly
formed plural "mousen".
--
Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
There are infestations in the district. There are lousen everywhere.
Many of the female spousen are frightened of mousen in the housen.
Grousen have taken up residence in the undergrowth.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Roland Hutchinson
That's the idea. VAX hackers used to talk just like that when they
weren't hacking on the VAXen--and, perhaps especially, when they were.
Sounds positively Chauserian, innit.
Percival P. Cassidy
Change it to "pointing devices" and thereby cover trackballs, "pointing
sticks" and touch pads too.
Perce
Fred
But it doesn't point. It controls the cursor.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
"Pointing device" is the generic term, and has been for decades.
The mouse (or other pointing device) controls the cursor which then
"points". The mouse and cursor together "point".
The steering wheel of a car, truck or ship does not steer the vehicle or
vessel. It controls the wheels or rudder which then control the
direction.
Fred
A steering wheel steers, i.e. governs direction. A mouse also steers the
cursor. It doesn't point.
Mike Lyle
There's no /need/ for the irregular plural, so let's stick with "mice"
for both kinds. After all, the thing is called a "mouse" for a sound
poetic reason: giving it a different plural merely blunts the
stylistic effect.
--
Mike.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
The cursor points to a position on the screen. The mouse governs the
cursor.
John Varela
wrote:
I don't use a mouse; I use a trackball. Laptops come equipped with
touchpads, and touchpads are becoming a viable alternative for
desktops.
It would be best to refer to "cursor placement" when possible, or
when the device must be mentioned use "pointing device".
--
John Varela
John Varela
wrote:
The Wikipedia "fanatics" are correct in this instance. There are
other devices than mice for placing a computer cursor.
--
John Varela
John Varela
<Nob...@NotMyISP.com> wrote:
> On 01/16/11 03:27 am, abzorba wrote:
>
> > I did a lot of work on admittedly short article on Wikipedia
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasher
> > which describes software which can be operated by a disabled person to
> > produce text using many devices other than a keyboard. Now, a little
> > gremlin has changed my term "computer mouses" to "mice". I think that
> > "mouses" is the correct plural for the mouse of the computer variety,
> > but he keeps changing it back. He directs me to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_(computing)
> > in which one source accepts both, and others suggest "mouse devices",
> > or "pointing devices'.
> >
> > As quite obviously the last two are not going to be viable, is my use
> > of "mouses" better than his "mice"? I feel a little peeeved as his
> > source says that BOTH are acceptable, so why does he keep changing my
> > choice to his, when I was the one how wrote most of the bloody thing
> > in the first place? What say you: Mouses, mice, or meece?
>
Is a "pointing stick" the same thing as a "joystick"?
--
John Varela
Fred
Yes - by steering it.
Percival P. Cassidy
>>> I did a lot of work on admittedly short article on Wikipedia
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasher
>>> which describes software which can be operated by a disabled person to
>>> produce text using many devices other than a keyboard. Now, a little
>>> gremlin has changed my term "computer mouses" to "mice". I think that
>>> "mouses" is the correct plural for the mouse of the computer variety,
>>> but he keeps changing it back. He directs me to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_(computing)
>>> in which one source accepts both, and others suggest "mouse devices",
>>> or "pointing devices'.
>>>
>>> As quite obviously the last two are not going to be viable, is my use
>>> of "mouses" better than his "mice"? I feel a little peeeved as his
>>> source says that BOTH are acceptable, so why does he keep changing my
>>> choice to his, when I was the one how wrote most of the bloody thing
>>> in the first place? What say you: Mouses, mice, or meece?
> Is a "pointing stick" the same thing as a "joystick"?
No, a "pointing stick" is the generic term for what you will find on IBM
ThinkPads, for example -- the red thing between the G, H and B keys:
http://shop.lenovo.com/us/products/professional-grade/
Perce
Eric Walker
[...]
> The Wikipedia "fanatics" are correct in this instance. There are other
> devices than mice for placing a computer cursor.
Irrelevant: they are changing the form of the plural of "mouse", not
trying to expand to all analogous devices. The entire question is what
that plural form is (or if there is a "standard" form of it at all).
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
The steering wheel of a car steers the front wheels of the car.
In one case the linkage is electronic in the other it is mechanical.
Fred
There are plenty of games and simulators, and amchinery such as industrial
drilling machines etc. where the steering is controlled electronically by a
wheel.
abzorba
> On 01/16/11 03:27 am, abzorba wrote:
>
> > I did a lot of work on admittedly short article on Wikipedia
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasher
> > which describes software which can be operated by a disabled person to
> > produce text using many devices other than a keyboard. Now, a little
> > gremlin has changed my term "computer mouses" to "mice". I think that
> > "mouses" is the correct plural for the mouse of the computer variety,
> > in which one source accepts both, and others suggest "mouse devices",
> > or "pointing devices'.
>
> > As quite obviously the last two are not going to be viable, is my use
> > of "mouses" better than his "mice"? I feel a little peeeved as his
> > source says that BOTH are acceptable, so why does he keep changing my
> > choice to his, when I was the one how wrote most of the bloody thing
> > in the first place? What say you: Mouses, mice, or meece?
>
> Change it to "pointing devices" and thereby cover trackballs, "pointing
> sticks" and touch pads too.
>
> Perce
I'm going to surrender to the "mice" people, not because I'm being a
mouse but the consensus seems to be against me in this froup. Perce,
the object of the Wikipedia Dasher article is to explain how the
device works. I noted there that a disabled person could use: "a
pointing device such as a mouse, a touchpad, a touch screen, a roller
ball, a joystick, a Push-button, a Wii Remote, or even mouses
operated by the foot or head" "Pointing device" is a general term
that covers these, but sometimes it is necessary to itemise what they
include. In any case, using a general term that includes the item in
question does not mean we can get along without giving that item its
own name, does it?
Myles (squeaking defeat) Paulsen
Percival P. Cassidy
Sorry, Myles. I had not looked at the Wikipedia article, so I had not
realized that you had already used "pointing devices" as the broad
category of which mouses/mice are merely one kind.
Perce
R H Draney
>> the Talk pages from others, either go on to some more pleasant phase of
>> your life, or settle for "mouse devices".
>
>The Wikipedia "fanatics" are correct in this instance. There are
>other devices than mice for placing a computer cursor.
Like trackballen and joystices, for instance....r
R H Draney
Oh, the "nipple"!...r
Joe Fineman
> As quite obviously the last two are not going to be viable, is my
> use of "mouses" better than his "mice"? I feel a little peeeved as
> his source says that BOTH are acceptable, so why does he keep
> changing my choice to his, when I was the one how wrote most of the
> bloody thing in the first place? What say you: Mouses, mice, or
> meece?
When an irregular noun gets used in a radically new way, it *gets a
chance* to have its plural regularized in that use. Examples are
"gooses" (the tailor's tools, and the rude pokes) and the Toronto
Maple Leafs. There is therefore nothing unsound in the instinct of
the people who want to say "mouses". They have, however, been
overruled by majority usage.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: Marijuana is a dangerous drug. It produces insanity in :||
||: people who never use it. :||
Fred
> abzorba <myle...@yahoo.com.au> writes:
>
>> As quite obviously the last two are not going to be viable, is my
>> use of "mouses" better than his "mice"? I feel a little peeeved as
>> his source says that BOTH are acceptable, so why does he keep
>> changing my choice to his, when I was the one how wrote most of the
>> bloody thing in the first place? What say you: Mouses, mice, or
>> meece?
>
> When an irregular noun gets used in a radically new way, it *gets a
> chance* to have its plural regularized in that use. Examples are
> "gooses" (the tailor's tools, and the rude pokes) and the Toronto
> Maple Leafs. There is therefore nothing unsound in the instinct of
> the people who want to say "mouses". They have, however, been
> overruled by majority usage.
>
Where's the proof of that? :||
Garrett Wollman
Other terms being "cat's tongue" (properly, just the red rubber thingy
on the end) and "clitmouse". I kid you not.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Peter Brooks
> In article <ih05jr02...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> >Percival P. Cassidy filted:
>
> >>On 01/16/11 06:00 pm, John Varela wrote:
>
> >>> Is a "pointing stick" the same thing as a "joystick"?
>
> >>No, a "pointing stick" is the generic term for what you will find on IBM
> >>ThinkPads, for example -- the red thing between the G, H and B keys:
>
> >Oh, the "nipple"!...r
>
> Other terms being "cat's tongue" (properly, just the red rubber thingy
> on the end) and "clitmouse". I kid you not.
>
Roland Hutchinson
Now we're getting the hang of it.
Roland Hutchinson
In the pudding.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> I experienced brief disappointment that nobody thought to trademark
> the word "mouse" for the computer sort...then you could with legal
> justification insist upon "Mouse (TM) brand pointing devices"....r
Mice were developed, and named, at the Stanford Research Institute, I
believe under a government grant. I don't think that trademark
protection was available.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |I believe there are more instances
SF Bay Area (1982-) |of the abridgment of the freedom of
Chicago (1964-1982) |the people by gradual and silent
|encroachments of those in power
evan.kir...@gmail.com |than by violent and sudden
|usurpations.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | James Madison
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 10:03:12 -0800, Skitt wrote:
>
>> abzorba wrote:
>>
>>> I did a lot of work on admittedly short article on Wikipedia
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasher which describes software which
>>> can be operated by a disabled person to produce text using many
>>> devices other than a keyboard. Now, a little gremlin has changed
>>> my term "computer mouses" to "mice". I think that "mouses" is the
>>> correct plural for the mouse of the computer variety, but he keeps
>>> changing it back. He directs me to
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_(computing) in which one source
>>> accepts both, and others suggest "mouse devices", or "pointing
>>> devices'.
>>>
>>> As quite obviously the last two are not going to be viable, is my
>>> use of "mouses" better than his "mice"? I feel a little peeeved as
>>> his source says that BOTH are acceptable, so why does he keep
>>> changing my choice to his, when I was the one how wrote most of
>>> the bloody thing in the first place? What say you: Mouses, mice,
>>> or meece?
>>
>> As far as I'm concerned, the plural of "mouse" is "mice". Some
>> computer nerds disagree. My concerns do not matter, but I see no
>> reason to have a special plural for the computer devices.
>
> The existence of "mouses" suggests one thing to me: that when the
> Alto was deployed the nerds were all still PDP-10 hackers who
> wouldn't touch a VAX with a ten-foot pole. Otherwise we would have
> had the regularly formed plural "mousen".
How does the existence of "mouses" suggest that to you? We had Altos
at Stanford, and I never heard anybody use anything but "mice" back
then. And we PDP-10 hackers also used Vaxen and other boxes that ran
various Unices.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |In the beginning, there were no
SF Bay Area (1982-) |reasons, there were only causes.
Chicago (1964-1982) | Daniel Dennet
Mike Barnes
>I don't use a mouse; I use a trackball. Laptops come equipped with
>touchpads, and touchpads are becoming a viable alternative for
>desktops.
Do you mean viable for you or viable for the computer world in general?
If the latter, I'm surprised, and I'd like to hear more.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Eric Walker
As a sample size of one, I have never used a mouse regularly, and on
those rare occasions when circumstances oblige me to, I wonder how and
why people submit themselves to such foolishness when trackballs are
available. Mind, the shape and design matter perhaps more than with
mice, but there's plenty to choose from.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Mike Lyle
But touchpads? My fingers trip over one another in a way I don't think
any technical advance in pad design will ever obviate.
--
Mike.
Mike Barnes
>On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 09:01:58 +0000, Mike Barnes wrote:
>
>> John Varela <newl...@verizon.net>:
>>>I don't use a mouse; I use a trackball. Laptops come equipped with
>>>touchpads, and touchpads are becoming a viable alternative for desktops.
>>
>> Do you mean viable for you or viable for the computer world in general?
>> If the latter, I'm surprised, and I'd like to hear more.
>
>As a sample size of one, I have never used a mouse regularly, and on
>those rare occasions when circumstances oblige me to, I wonder how and
>why people submit themselves to such foolishness when trackballs are
>available.
I feel much the same about touchpads - which is why I asked.
>Mind, the shape and design matter perhaps more than with
>mice, but there's plenty to choose from.
Where does one start?
David Hatunen
When I'm using a laptop at home I plug a USB mouse into it. I hate touch
pads.
--
Dave Hatunen, Tucson, Arizona, out where the cacti grow
David Hatunen
> As far as I'm concerned, the plural of "mouse" is "mice". Some computer
> nerds disagree. My concerns do not matter, but I see no reason to have
> a special plural for the computer devices.
Ah, computer lingo.
I see no reason to have floppy disks but compact discs, but there you are.
David Hatunen
> Roland Hutchinson <my.sp...@verizon.net> writes:
>> The existence of "mouses" suggests one thing to me: that when the Alto
>> was deployed the nerds were all still PDP-10 hackers who wouldn't touch
>> a VAX with a ten-foot pole. Otherwise we would have had the regularly
>> formed plural "mousen".
>
> How does the existence of "mouses" suggest that to you? We had Altos at
> Stanford, and I never heard anybody use anything but "mice" back then.
> And we PDP-10 hackers also used Vaxen and other boxes that ran various
> Unices.
I expect they blow their noses in kleenices.
It's a joke, son.
David Hatunen
> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> writes:
>
>> I experienced brief disappointment that nobody thought to trademark the
>> word "mouse" for the computer sort...then you could with legal
>> justification insist upon "Mouse (TM) brand pointing devices"....r
>
> Mice were developed, and named, at the Stanford Research Institute, I
> believe under a government grant. I don't think that trademark
> protection was available.
I thought they came from XPARC.
David Hatunen
> Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 09:08:41 +1300, "Fred" <r...@parachute.net.nz>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
>>>> On 01/16/11 03:27 am, abzorba wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I did a lot of work on admittedly short article on Wikipedia
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasher
>>>>> which describes software which can be operated by a disabled person
>>>>> to produce text using many devices other than a keyboard. Now, a
>>>>> little gremlin has changed my term "computer mouses" to "mice". I
>>>>> think that "mouses" is the correct plural for the mouse of the
>>>>> computer variety, but he keeps changing it back. He directs me to
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_(computing) in which one source
>>>>> accepts both, and others suggest "mouse devices", or "pointing
>>>>> devices'.
>>>>>
>>>>> As quite obviously the last two are not going to be viable, is my
>>>>> use of "mouses" better than his "mice"? I feel a little peeeved as
>>>>> his source says that BOTH are acceptable, so why does he keep
>>>>> changing my choice to his, when I was the one how wrote most of the
>>>>> bloody thing
>>>>> in the first place? What say you: Mouses, mice, or meece?
>>>>
>>>> Change it to "pointing devices" and thereby cover trackballs,
>>>> "pointing sticks" and touch pads too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> But it doesn't point. It controls the cursor.
>>>
>> "Pointing device" is the generic term, and has been for decades.
>>
>> The mouse (or other pointing device) controls the cursor which then
>> "points". The mouse and cursor together "point".
>>
>> The steering wheel of a car, truck or ship does not steer the vehicle
>> or vessel. It controls the wheels or rudder which then control the
>> direction.
>
>
> A steering wheel steers, i.e. governs direction. A mouse also steers
> the cursor. It doesn't point.
But you use the steering wheel to point your car in another direction.
Arguing with idiomatic usage is kind of pointless.
David Hatunen
> Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 10:35:29 +1300, "Fred" <r...@parachute.net.nz>
>> wrote:
>>> A steering wheel steers, i.e. governs direction. A mouse also steers
>>> the cursor. It doesn't point.
>>>
>> The cursor points to a position on the screen. The mouse governs the
>> cursor.
>
> Yes - by steering it.
Wouldn't steering require he little hand and finger to rotate in the
direction of travel?
David Hatunen
> When an irregular noun gets used in a radically new way, it *gets a
> chance* to have its plural regularized in that use. Examples are
> "gooses" (the tailor's tools, and the rude pokes) and the Toronto Maple
> Leafs. There is therefore nothing unsound in the instinct of the people
> who want to say "mouses". They have, however, been overruled by
> majority usage.
"Majority usage", eh? What poll determined that?
R H Draney
>
>On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 12:25:58 +1300, Fred wrote:
>
>> Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
>>> On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 10:35:29 +1300, "Fred" <r...@parachute.net.nz>
>>> wrote:
>
>>>> A steering wheel steers, i.e. governs direction. A mouse also steers
>>>> the cursor. It doesn't point.
>>>>
>>> The cursor points to a position on the screen. The mouse governs the
>>> cursor.
>>
>> Yes - by steering it.
>
>Wouldn't steering require he little hand and finger to rotate in the
>direction of travel?
Before steering wheels took over on automobiles, many of the early models had
tillers to perform the function....r
David Hatunen
I believe it was still called 'steering".
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 23:23:13 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
>> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> writes:
>>
>>> I experienced brief disappointment that nobody thought to
>>> trademark the word "mouse" for the computer sort...then you could
>>> with legal justification insist upon "Mouse (TM) brand pointing
>>> devices"....r
>>
>> Mice were developed, and named, at the Stanford Research Institute, I
>> believe under a government grant. I don't think that trademark
>> protection was available.
>
> I thought they came from XPARC.
Nope. Doug Englebart invented it at SRI in '64 and was granted a
patent for an "X-Y Position Indicator for a Display System" in 1970.
(The mouse as claimed in the patent had two wheels perpendicular to
one another protruding from the bottom, so actual commercial mice,
which were based on upside-down trackballs, with the wheels inside,
wouldn't have been infringing.)
Xerox PARC wasn't founded until 1970.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The Elizabethans had so many words
SF Bay Area (1982-) |for the female genitals that it is
Chicago (1964-1982) |quite hard to speak a sentence of
|modern English without inadvertently
evan.kir...@gmail.com |mentioning at least three of them.
| Terry Pratchett
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 23:26:17 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
>> Roland Hutchinson <my.sp...@verizon.net> writes:
>
>>> The existence of "mouses" suggests one thing to me: that when the Alto
>>> was deployed the nerds were all still PDP-10 hackers who wouldn't touch
>>> a VAX with a ten-foot pole. Otherwise we would have had the regularly
>>> formed plural "mousen".
>>
>> How does the existence of "mouses" suggest that to you? We had Altos at
>> Stanford, and I never heard anybody use anything but "mice" back then.
>> And we PDP-10 hackers also used Vaxen and other boxes that ran various
>> Unices.
>
> I expect they blow their noses in kleenices.
We did.
> It's a joke, son.
But not one that made any sense to one who was a PDP-10 and VAX hacker
in a community of such and who was part of the group that regularly
used such plurals. (We tended to call it "TOPS-20" rather than
"Twenex", though, so "Twenices" wasn't common.)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The body was wrapped in duct tape,
SF Bay Area (1982-) |weighted down with concrete blocks
Chicago (1964-1982) |and a telephone cord was tied
|around the neck. Police suspect
evan.kir...@gmail.com |foul play...
Mike Barnes
>On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 09:01:58 +0000, Mike Barnes wrote:
>
>> John Varela <newl...@verizon.net>:
>>>I don't use a mouse; I use a trackball. Laptops come equipped with
>>>touchpads, and touchpads are becoming a viable alternative for desktops.
>>
>> Do you mean viable for you or viable for the computer world in general?
>> If the latter, I'm surprised, and I'd like to hear more.
>
>When I'm using a laptop at home I plug a USB mouse into it. I hate touch
>pads.
Ditto - and when away from home as well. A compact mouse with a
retractable cord is easy to carry and works well on my leg.
Fred
Goo quality cordless with a small transponder, or bluetooth are both
excellent when in transit.
Joe Fineman
> Joe Fineman wrote:
>> When an irregular noun gets used in a radically new way, it *gets a
>> chance* to have its plural regularized in that use. Examples are
>> "gooses" (the tailor's tools, and the rude pokes) and the Toronto
>> Maple Leafs. There is therefore nothing unsound in the instinct of
>> the people who want to say "mouses". They have, however, been
>> overruled by majority usage.
>
> Where's the proof of that?
FWIW, Google gives 29900 hits for "computer mouses" & 238000 for
"computer mice". However, there is no way to *prove* such things.
What I wrote seems to me a reasonable inference from casual
observation. On the Web, people who write "mouses" are often taken to
task; people who write "mice" are not. I have never seen "mouses" on
a sign in a store, or in an advertisement. I myself wavered at the
beginning, but concluded that "mouses" had no chance.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: Wag more, bark less. ||
James Silverton
>> John Varela <newl...@verizon.net>:
>>> I don't use a mouse; I use a trackball. Laptops come
>>> equipped with touchpads, and touchpads are becoming a viable
>>> alternative for desktops.
>>
>> Do you mean viable for you or viable for the computer world
>> in general? If the latter, I'm surprised, and I'd like to
>> hear more.
> When I'm using a laptop at home I plug a USB mouse into it. I
> hate touch pads.
As do I, tho I have played with the new Apple Touch Pad and I think I
could get to like it.
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Roland Hutchinson
> David Hatunen <dhat...@cox.net> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 23:23:13 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>
>>> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> I experienced brief disappointment that nobody thought to trademark
>>>> the word "mouse" for the computer sort...then you could with legal
>>>> justification insist upon "Mouse (TM) brand pointing devices"....r
>>>
>>> Mice were developed, and named, at the Stanford Research Institute, I
>>> believe under a government grant. I don't think that trademark
>>> protection was available.
>>
>> I thought they came from XPARC.
>
> Nope. Doug Englebart invented it at SRI in '64 and was granted a patent
> for an "X-Y Position Indicator for a Display System" in 1970. (The mouse
> as claimed in the patent had two wheels perpendicular to one another
> protruding from the bottom, so actual commercial mice, which were based
> on upside-down trackballs, with the wheels inside, wouldn't have been
> infringing.)
>
> Xerox PARC wasn't founded until 1970.
Those who haven't seen it might want to watch Engelbart's "Mother or all
demos" from 1968, the "public debut" of the mouse and of much besides.
http://sloan.stanford.edu/MouseSite/1968Demo.html
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<my.sp...@verizon.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 10:22:20 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
>> David Hatunen <dhat...@cox.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 23:23:13 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>>
>>>> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> I experienced brief disappointment that nobody thought to trademark
>>>>> the word "mouse" for the computer sort...then you could with legal
>>>>> justification insist upon "Mouse (TM) brand pointing devices"....r
>>>>
>>>> Mice were developed, and named, at the Stanford Research Institute, I
>>>> believe under a government grant. I don't think that trademark
>>>> protection was available.
>>>
>>> I thought they came from XPARC.
>>
>> Nope. Doug Englebart invented it at SRI in '64 and was granted a patent
>> for an "X-Y Position Indicator for a Display System" in 1970. (The mouse
>> as claimed in the patent had two wheels perpendicular to one another
>> protruding from the bottom, so actual commercial mice, which were based
>> on upside-down trackballs, with the wheels inside, wouldn't have been
>> infringing.)
>>
>> Xerox PARC wasn't founded until 1970.
>
>Those who haven't seen it might want to watch Engelbart's "Mother or all
>demos" from 1968, the "public debut" of the mouse and of much besides.
>
>http://sloan.stanford.edu/MouseSite/1968Demo.html
Thanks.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Roland Hutchinson
> David Hatunen <dhat...@cox.net> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 23:26:17 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>
>>> Roland Hutchinson <my.sp...@verizon.net> writes:
>>
>>>> The existence of "mouses" suggests one thing to me: that when the
>>>> Alto was deployed the nerds were all still PDP-10 hackers who
>>>> wouldn't touch a VAX with a ten-foot pole. Otherwise we would have
>>>> had the regularly formed plural "mousen".
>>>
>>> How does the existence of "mouses" suggest that to you?
I think that should be clear from what I wrote. If they were heavily
into VAXen, they would have coined
My tongue was in my cheek. I don't put this theory forward as
necessarily an accurate historical account.
>>> We had Altos
>>> at Stanford, and I never heard anybody use anything but "mice" back
>>> then. And we PDP-10 hackers also used Vaxen and other boxes that ran
>>> various Unices.
I was there, too--at least nearby.
But do note that the Alto (1973) substantially pre-dates the VAX (1977).
I don't know what year they arrived at Stanford; I had the impression
that they had been there for a while when I got there in 1979.
>> I expect they blow their noses in kleenices.
>
> We did.
>
>> It's a joke, son.
What he said.
> But not one that made any sense to one who was a PDP-10 and VAX hacker
> in a community of such and who was part of the group that regularly used
> such plurals.
I expect they were called "mice" at Stanford because that's what the were
called at SRI and PARC, and had been so called since before the Vax was
thought of.
> (We tended to call it "TOPS-20" rather than "Twenex",
> though, so "Twenices" wasn't common.)
Which was slightly odd, because "TOPS-20" was the official name of it,
"Twenex" being an unofficial nickname, and roundly depricated by DEC (or
"digital", as it had begun styling itself)--which you'd think would have
attracted the hackers to it, even at Stanford.
R H Draney
>>> touch pads.
>>
>> Ditto - and when away from home as well. A compact mouse with a
>> retractable cord is easy to carry and works well on my leg.
>
>Goo quality cordless with a small transponder, or bluetooth are both
>excellent when in transit.
I've tried the cordless ones, and they *eat* batteries like nothing else I've
encountered....r
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
I still recall a local sales consultant from DEC" coming to me with a
haapy smile on his face about 15 years ago. "Look at this Peter", he
chuckled. He showed me a copy of the "digital" logo. I was like: blank
look, blank mind. I'd seen it many times before. He explained that it
was a new version. The dots on the "i"s were now round instead of
square.
Percival P. Cassidy
>>> I don't use a mouse; I use a trackball. Laptops come equipped with
>>> touchpads, and touchpads are becoming a viable alternative for desktops.
>> Do you mean viable for you or viable for the computer world in general?
>> If the latter, I'm surprised, and I'd like to hear more.
> As a sample size of one, I have never used a mouse regularly, and on
> those rare occasions when circumstances oblige me to, I wonder how and
> why people submit themselves to such foolishness when trackballs are
> available. Mind, the shape and design matter perhaps more than with
> mice, but there's plenty to choose from.
Logitech Cordless Optical TrackMan -- three of them in this household.
Perce
John Varela
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
> I still recall a local sales consultant from DEC" coming to me with a
> haapy smile on his face about 15 years ago. "Look at this Peter", he
> chuckled. He showed me a copy of the "digital" logo. I was like: blank
> look, blank mind. I'd seen it many times before. He explained that it
> was a new version. The dots on the "i"s were now round instead of
> square.
There is no I in "DEC". One old-time DEC person on
alt.folklore.computers says that when DEC became DIGITAL is when the
company started going to pot.
--
John Varela
tony cooper
wrote:
Isn't "DEC" just an initialism for "Digital Equipment Corporation"?
"DEC" and "DIGITIAL" would just be the logos for what was always
Digital Equipment Corporation.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Garrett Wollman
tony cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Isn't "DEC" just an initialism for "Digital Equipment Corporation"?
>"DEC" and "DIGITIAL" would just be the logos for what was always
>Digital Equipment Corporation.
No.
In the pre-"d|i|g|i|t|a|l" era, DEC equipment said "digital equipment
corporation" (yes, all lower case). "DEC" was only used as a
component of longer trade names, like "DECsystem-2020" and "DECstation
3000" and "DECtape". These in turn represented families of part
numbers like "KI-10" and "KN03" and "TK-44", in which the first
letter indicated the type of device (there was also a two-letter
suffix indicating the version and sales market). Networking devices
used a different code starting with "DE", and some of these were also
trademarked (DELNI, DESTA, DEQNA, and so on). I forget what the logo
on the VAX-11/780 looked like.
The lawyers told them that if they didn't start using "DIGITAL" like a
trademark, there was a danger that the courts would find that it
wasn't one, so they started rebranding everything in sight to
eliminate "DEC" and replace it with "DIGITAL(TM)".
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:
> I forget what the logo
>on the VAX-11/780 looked like.
Me too, and I have seen it many hundreds of times.
This looks familiar:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/VAX_11-780_intero.jpg
The black letters on white rectangles "digital", followed by white "VAX
11/780" on the black background.
FSV of "black".
Robin Bignall
I've got a Logitech wireless keyboard/mouse and the batteries last for months.
--
Robin Bignall
(BrE)
Herts, England
the Omrud
I've got a Logitech Bluetooth mouse and the batteries last for years.
--
David
Lanarcam
have it anymore!
John Varela
The logo change reflected a change in corporate management and
ensuing changes to the company's business approach. As I understand
it -- only from reading the news group -- there was a lot of
employee unhappiness when the corporate founders, who were technical
people, were pushed out by the money people, as so often happens.
--
John Varela
James Silverton
The history of DEC does confirm that money people are not the best to
run a technical company. Were not DEC finally bought out by COMPAQ whose
original founders were in two minds whether to run a Mexican restaurant
or a computer company? Also, the history of Apple and the speculation
on Steve Jobs' health is worth considering.
Roland Hutchinson
It's a common and even expected occurrence now; perhaps not so much
then. What we may be looking at may be the Great Prototype of the
scrappy, rapidly successful and growing tech firm being taken over by the
suits.
erilar
Robin Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I named my mouse Greedy and I feed him rechargeable batteries 8-)
--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist
R H Draney
Then I should name mine "Marilyn Chambers", because it's Insatiable....r
John Varela
<my.sp...@verizon.net> wrote:
> It's a common and even expected occurrence now; perhaps not so much
> then. What we may be looking at may be the Great Prototype of the
> scrappy, rapidly successful and growing tech firm being taken over by the
> suits.
Frank Piasecki was pushed out of the helicopter company he founded,
the company foundered, and it became Boeing Vertol. That was in
1955. Piasecki and his friends formed a new company that continues
today.
--
John Varela
Garrett Wollman
John Varela <newl...@verizon.net> wrote:
>Frank Piasecki was pushed out of the helicopter company he founded,
>the company foundered, and it became Boeing Vertol. That was in
>1955. Piasecki and his friends formed a new company that continues
>today.
In a failed bid at "defense conversion", Boeing Vertol was given the
contract to build the "United States Standard Light Rail Vehicle",
which three rail systems were forced to buy by (what was then) the
UMTA. It was a lemon, and only two agencies ever took delivery;
the third -- I think it was SEPTA -- cancelled their contract when
they saw how poorly the "Boeing Bathtubs" were doing in Boston. The
San Francisco Municipal Railway picked up the remaining USSLRVs that
had been built for Philadelphia, although they required modification
(Muni's version had configurable loading height for the newly-opened
Muni Metro subway's high-level platforms).
Some observers suggested that the Boeing Vertol engineers had simply
not accounted for the difference in overhaul intervals between
helicopters and rail cars, but that doesn't account for the most
significant problem: the "plug" doors which would not close under
crush loads due to excess flex in the frame.
Federal "Buy American" regulations still make it unnecessarily
expensive to buy light-rail vehicles, as nearly all of the market and
the manufacturing is in Europe, so there's no possibility of getting a
"commercial off-the-shelf" solution for the dozen or so agencies that
run light rail in the U.S. (The ever-obstinate MBTA, however, insists
on doing a custom design even when they could buy something standard
or piggyback onto another agency's purchase, which makes everything
even more expensive. Since the USSLRVs arrived, the MBTA has used
ever-heavier "light rail" vehicles, leading to a vicious cycle as few
COTS LRVs are heavy enough to stand up in a crash with an existing
Kinki-Sharyo "type 7" or AnsaldoBreda "type 8" LRV.[1])
-GAWollman
[1] The MBTA's car designs are given a sequence number for the line
they are operated on. Streetcars (and later light-rail vehicles) were
named "type 1" through "type 5"; the "type 6" was never built (it was
a prototype design for the car the UMTA wouldn't allow the MBTA to
order before the Boeings were built). There was a gap of about 45
years between the phase-out of the type 5 and the acceptance of the
USSLRV, during which time the MBTA used standard PCC streetcars.[2]
The current generation of cars for the heavy-rail Red Line are known
as "#3 Red Line" cars (there are also #1 and #2 cars in service), and
the Orange Line uses all "#11 Main Line" cars (the cars were designed
for the old Main Line Elevated, which the Orange Line replaced). The
Blue Line uses the same style of car as the Orange Line, but they have
a different loading gauge, are shorter in length and height, and have
pantographs in addition to the third-rail shoe. None of the lines
have compatible rolling stock.
[2] The oldest PCCs still in revenue service at a U.S. transit agency
are on the MBTA's Ashmont-Mattapan High Speed Line.
abzorba
literary types who loll around the drawing room leafing through old
classics, is actually saturated with techno wizards who know
everything there is about the gizzards of software and hardware.
I have also been astonished that the literary people here not only
play the bagpipes, but are conversant with the more esoteric features
of music theory down the ages.
And on top of that, it takes only the slightest suggestion for
thousands to write in with food recipes and culinary variants of every
variety imaginable.
So where is the group where posters don't write in to ask "What does a
"running tap" mean? Like, is it faster than Phar Lap"?
Myles (Puzzled) Paulsen
Mike Barnes
R H Draney
Myles may have just discovered the oft-sought difference between
alt.usage.english and alt.english.usage....r