Why is "barrel" always abbreviated "bbl"?

[LHW]

Does anyone have the origin of this?

[Fernando Melendez]

On Sat, 31 Jan 1998 22:38:24 GMT, lou...@ionet.net (LHW) wrote:

>
>
> Does anyone have the origin of this?
>
>

I can give you some thoughts about it, but certainly not the reason
why, or its specific origin (which has to do with the oil trade,
apparently). The doubling of an initial can form its plural, such as
in page (p) and pages (pp); note (n) and notes (nn) and line (l) and
lines (ll). This occurs in other languages, or at least in Spanish,
which abbreviates Unites States as E.E.U.U., (Estados Unidos).

Barrel is abbreviated as bl. Obviously its plural could have been
abbreviated as bls., but it wasn't. Based on the above, however,
doubling the b to make its plural is not farfetched or a rarity.

Fernando

[Joseph C Fineman]

fer...@worldnet.att.net (Fernando Melendez) writes:

>Barrel is abbreviated as bl. Obviously its plural could have been
>abbreviated as bls., but it wasn't. Based on the above, however,
>doubling the b to make its plural is not farfetched or a rarity.

That's right. Reference books used to state that bl was the singular
& bbl the plural. However, my casual impression is that the petroleum
industry, which has the most use for the abbreviation, has forgotten
about bl & uses bbl for both singular and plural. MW.10 defines the
abbreviation bbl as "barrel, barrels".

That is not terribly surprising, in that reduplication to form the
plural of abbreviations is fairly uncommon, and a lot of people have
never caught on to the idea. I copyedit scientific papers, and I find
that a fair-size minority of authors use "pp." for page as well as
pages. For them, I suppose, the extra p is a mere mystery, like the
extra b in bbl.

Zoologists & botanists do, however, learn about spp. for species
(pl.). That is an oddity, in that the singular & plural are distinct
in the abbreviation but not in the spelled-out word.

--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com

||: The doctorate, which once meant you could start teaching, :||
||: now means you can stop learning. :||

[Murray Arnow]

In article <EnpK8...@world.std.com>, j...@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman) wrote:
[snip]

>--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
>
>||: The doctorate, which once meant you could start teaching, :||
>||: now means you can stop learning. :||

Noticing your signature, I was reminded of Boris Podolsky's answer to the
question what does a Ph.D. mean. Podolsky said, "It means that I don't have
to take anymore examinations."

[BBurke]

Joseph C Fineman wrote:
>
> fer...@worldnet.att.net (Fernando Melendez) writes:
>
> >Barrel is abbreviated as bl. Obviously its plural could have been
> >abbreviated as bls., but it wasn't. Based on the above, however,
> >doubling the b to make its plural is not farfetched or a rarity.
>
> That's right. Reference books used to state that bl was the singular
> & bbl the plural. However, my casual impression is that the petroleum
> industry, which has the most use for the abbreviation, has forgotten
> about bl & uses bbl for both singular and plural. MW.10 defines the
> abbreviation bbl as "barrel, barrels".
>
> That is not terribly surprising, in that reduplication to form the
> plural of abbreviations is fairly uncommon, and a lot of people have
> never caught on to the idea. I copyedit scientific papers, and I find
> that a fair-size minority of authors use "pp." for page as well as
> pages. For them, I suppose, the extra p is a mere mystery, like the
> extra b in bbl.
>
> Zoologists & botanists do, however, learn about spp. for species
> (pl.). That is an oddity, in that the singular & plural are distinct
> in the abbreviation but not in the spelled-out word.
>

> --- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
>
> ||: The doctorate, which once meant you could start teaching, :||
> ||: now means you can stop learning.

My dictionary states (as JCF says) that bbl is an abbreviation for both
singular and plural.

[Dan Day]

On Sun, 1 Feb 1998 16:24:10 GMT, j...@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman) wrote:
>That's right. Reference books used to state that bl was the singular
>& bbl the plural. However, my casual impression is that the petroleum
>industry, which has the most use for the abbreviation, has forgotten
>about bl & uses bbl for both singular and plural.

Because I have written one of the more popular production tracking
software programs in the oil business, I feel pretty safe
in saying that the petroleum industry seldom, if ever, has
occasion to write about a single barrel of oil.
--
"Americans don't expect an apostle in the White House.
But they do expect an adult." -- Newsweek, 2/2/98 p.29

[N.Mitchum]

Dan Day wrote:
-----
> [...] the petroleum industry seldom, if ever, has

> occasion to write about a single barrel of oil.

>.....

What of the often-heard prices stated in "dollars per barrel"? Is
this not really an industry term, or does the industry simply not
abbreviate "barrel" in this instance?

--- NM

Mailed copies of replies always appreciated. (Mailers: drop HINTS.)

[Dan Day]

On Mon, 02 Feb 1998 10:20:48 -0800, "N.Mitchum" <HINTS...@mail.lafn.org>
wrote:

>> [...] the petroleum industry seldom, if ever, has
>> occasion to write about a single barrel of oil.
>

>What of the often-heard prices stated in "dollars per barrel"? Is
>this not really an industry term, or does the industry simply not
>abbreviate "barrel" in this instance?

Okay, call me an idiot. Yes, you're absolutely right. I
can't count the number of times I've written "$/bbl" in my
career. I've no excuse but temporary insanity.

[Mark Baker]

In article <352b531d.3120432@kiwi>,
d...@firstnethou.com (Dan Day) writes:

> Okay, call me an idiot. Yes, you're absolutely right. I
> can't count the number of times I've written "$/bbl" in my
> career. I've no excuse but temporary insanity.

Are barrels of oil the same volume as barrels of beer?

[Brian J Goggin]

Not if the *Macmillan Dictionary of Measurement* (1994) is to be
believed:

"For dry goods and materials, notably grain and fruit, 1 barrel is
usually 0.1156m^3 = 4.083 cu. ft, 7,056 cu.in. = 3.180 UK bushels,
3.283 US bushels or 115.62 litres, 25.43 UK gallons, 30.55 US gallons.

For most ordinary liquids, 1 barrel is usually 119.24 litres, 26.23 UK
gallons, 31.50 US gallons.

For oil and petroleum products, 1 barrel is usually 158.98 litres,
35.00 UK gallons, 42.00 US gallons.

For beer, as transported internationally, 1 barrel is usually 163.66
litres, 36.00 UK gallons, 43.24 US gallons."

bjg

[Joseph C Fineman]

mba...@iee.org (Mark Baker) writes:

>Are barrels of oil the same volume as barrels of beer?

No, says MW.10: 42 gallons for petroleum, 31 for fermented beverages.

--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com

||: I'd rather be in bed. :||

[Mark Baker]

In article <Entqn...@world.std.com>,

j...@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman) writes:

>>Are barrels of oil the same volume as barrels of beer?
>
> No, says MW.10

For some reason, it didn't occur to me to look in a dictionary. Having just
done so, I've found that COD is useless on this point anyway.

>: 42 gallons for petroleum, 31 for fermented beverages.

No, that can't be right. It's a multiple of 9 gallons here, I know that much
(a pin is 9 gallons, and there's a whole number of them in a barrel). Given
the range of numbers we're looking at, I'd guess it was 36.

Now, I would expect US beer barrels to either be the same number of gallons
as here, and so be smaller, or to be the same volume as here, and so have a
larger number of gallons in; there's no way I can see 31 gallons can be
right.

[David Rifkind]

On 4 Feb 1998 00:03:44 -0000, mba...@iee.org (Mark Baker) wrote:
>In article <Entqn...@world.std.com>,
> j...@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman) writes:
>
>>>Are barrels of oil the same volume as barrels of beer?
>>
>> No, says MW.10
>
>For some reason, it didn't occur to me to look in a dictionary. Having just
>done so, I've found that COD is useless on this point anyway.
>
>>: 42 gallons for petroleum, 31 for fermented beverages.
>
>No, that can't be right. It's a multiple of 9 gallons here, I know that much
>(a pin is 9 gallons, and there's a whole number of them in a barrel). Given
>the range of numbers we're looking at, I'd guess it was 36.

"A barrel is, in fact, a particular size of wooden cask, one holding 36
gallons, and other casks go under different names."
-- Kenneth Kilby, "The Cooper and His Trade"

[Skitt]

Mark Baker wrote:

> Are barrels of oil the same volume as barrels of beer?

Sorry, our beer comes in kegs and ponies.

Skitt (in the US and A)

[Mark Baker]

In article <34D87BD4...@myself.com>,
Skitt <al...@myself.com> writes:

>> Are barrels of oil the same volume as barrels of beer?
>
> Sorry, our beer comes in kegs and ponies.

Real beer doesn't come in kegs. Beer that comes in kegs you can probably
feed[1] to your ponies, since no sane human would want to drink the stuff.

[1] That's not really the right word for a drink is it?

[foote....@ix.netcom.com]

mba...@iee.org (Mark Baker) wrote:

>In article <352b531d.3120432@kiwi>,
> d...@firstnethou.com (Dan Day) writes:
>
>> Okay, call me an idiot. Yes, you're absolutely right. I
>> can't count the number of times I've written "$/bbl" in my
>> career. I've no excuse but temporary insanity.
>

>Are barrels of oil the same volume as barrels of beer?

In an oil flap in the 1970's there was a rumer OPEC was worrying about
what the world thought of them, they wanted to raise the price a barrel
of oil more but didn't want to get people madder. Finally to try to
lesson the impack of there move they decided to keep the price a barrel
the same but make the barrels smaller.

Comments?

[Joseph C Fineman]

mba...@iee.org (Mark Baker) writes:

>Real beer doesn't come in kegs. Beer that comes in kegs you can
>probably feed[1] to your ponies, since no sane human would want to
>drink the stuff.

>[1] That's not really the right word for a drink is it?

There was a gal, she had a feller,
She took him down into the cellar,
She fed him wine and whiskey too....

-- an old song, no better than it should be

It's not a good word for the purpose, but I don't know of a better one.

Russian is blessed with a special verb related to "drink" as "feed" is
to "eat", but English is lacking.

--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com

||: He knew what's what, and that's as high :||
||: As metaphysic wit can fly. :||

[LHW]

j...@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman) wrote:

>fer...@worldnet.att.net (Fernando Melendez) writes:
>
>>Barrel is abbreviated as bl. Obviously its plural could have been
>>abbreviated as bls., but it wasn't. Based on the above, however,
>>doubling the b to make its plural is not farfetched or a rarity.
>

>That's right. Reference books used to state that bl was the singular

>& bbl the plural. ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Joe,
Which reference books? "Used to state"? What do they
state now, if anything?

> However, my casual impression is that the petroleum
>industry, which has the most use for the abbreviation, has forgotten

>about bl & uses bbl for both singular and plural. MW.10 defines the
>abbreviation bbl as "barrel, barrels".
>
>That is not terribly surprising, in that reduplication to form the
>plural of abbreviations is fairly uncommon, and a lot of people have
>never caught on to the idea. I copyedit scientific papers, and I find
>that a fair-size minority of authors use "pp." for page as well as
>pages. For them, I suppose, the extra p is a mere mystery, like the
>extra b in bbl.
>
>Zoologists & botanists do, however, learn about spp. for species
>(pl.). That is an oddity, in that the singular & plural are distinct
>in the abbreviation but not in the spelled-out word.
>

>--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com

I've heard two explanations for "bbl":

1. In the formative years of the petroleum industry, Standard

Oil shipped kerosene in blue painted wooden barrels,

abbreviation being "bbl". Gasoline was shipped in red
painted barrels, but was not as much in demand, otherwise
barrel might be abbreviated "rbl".

2. Means "bushel barrel", a maritime term.

[David Rifkind]

On 4 Feb 1998 00:03:44 -0000, mba...@iee.org (Mark Baker) wrote:
>In article <Entqn...@world.std.com>,
> j...@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman) writes:
>

>>>Are barrels of oil the same volume as barrels of beer?
>>

>> No, says MW.10
>
>For some reason, it didn't occur to me to look in a dictionary. Having just
>done so, I've found that COD is useless on this point anyway.
>
>>: 42 gallons for petroleum, 31 for fermented beverages.
>
>No, that can't be right. It's a multiple of 9 gallons here, I know that much
>(a pin is 9 gallons, and there's a whole number of them in a barrel). Given
>the range of numbers we're looking at, I'd guess it was 36.

A pin, by the way, is not nine gallons but four and a half. A firkin is
nine gallons, a kilderkin 18, a barrel 36, a hogshead 54, a puncheon 72, and
a butt 108. Vincent Price, the Duke of Clarence, is supposed to have
drowned (or been drowned) in a butt of malmsey, which is about all it's good
for--it's far too sweet to drink.

[plumb...@aol.com]

The blue barrel thing does not work as bbl was in cimmon use at least in the 1700s well before the oil industry was using blue barrels.

[grabber]

On 7/8/2016 7:58 AM, plumb...@aol.com wrote:
> The blue barrel thing does not work as bbl was in cimmon use at least in the 1700s well before the oil industry was using blue barrels.

"Always" as in "except when it's abbreviated to b(*) or bl"?
I can't recall having seen "bbl" in the wild, but my dictionary says it
means "barrels" and presumably it comes from "bl" in the same way that
"pp" for pages comes from "p".

(*) Crossword setters love this one.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-07-08 07:17:57 +0000, grabber said:

> On 7/8/2016 7:58 AM, plumb...@aol.com wrote:
>> The blue barrel thing does not work as bbl was in cimmon use at least
>> in the 1700s well before the oil industry was using blue barrels.
>
> "Always" as in "except when it's abbreviated to b(*) or bl"?
> I can't recall having seen "bbl" in the wild,

I have. In the days when I used to read Newsweek (or maybe it was Time)
I used to see it almost every week, and I had the same question as
plumber533, but no one could tell me. For a while I thought it might
mean "billion barrels", but even with the wimpy American billion that
seemed too big a unit.

> but my dictionary says it means "barrels" and presumably it comes from
> "bl" in the same way that "pp" for pages comes from "p".
>
> (*) Crossword setters love this one.

--
athel

[grabber]

On 7/8/2016 8:28 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2016-07-08 07:17:57 +0000, grabber said:
>
>> On 7/8/2016 7:58 AM, plumb...@aol.com wrote:
>>> The blue barrel thing does not work as bbl was in cimmon use at least
>>> in the 1700s well before the oil industry was using blue barrels.
>>
>> "Always" as in "except when it's abbreviated to b(*) or bl"?
>> I can't recall having seen "bbl" in the wild,
>
> I have. In the days when I used to read Newsweek (or maybe it was Time)
> I used to see it almost every week,

That makes sense. I usually skip those kind of pages in news media.

[Stan Brown]

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 08:17:57 +0100, grabber wrote:
> On 7/8/2016 7:58 AM, plumb...@aol.com wrote:
> > The blue barrel thing does not work as bbl was in cimmon use at least in the 1700s well before the oil industry was using blue barrels.
>
> "Always" as in "except when it's abbreviated to b(*) or bl"?

Which I have never seen.

> I can't recall having seen "bbl" in the wild,

Odd -- it's the standard abbreviation, at least when discussing
quantities of oil.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://BrownMath.com/
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the
/right/ word is ... the difference between the lightning-bug
and the lightning." --Mark Twain

[Stan Brown]

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 08:59:56 +0100, grabber wrote:
> I usually skip those kind of pages in news media.
>

obAUE: "that kind" or "those kinds". (I'd probably change "pages" to
"page" with "that kind", but I'm not sure it's required.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, July 8, 2016 at 3:29:04 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2016-07-08 07:17:57 +0000, grabber said:
>
> > On 7/8/2016 7:58 AM, plumb...@aol.com wrote:
> >> The blue barrel thing does not work as bbl was in cimmon use at least
> >> in the 1700s well before the oil industry was using blue barrels.
> >
> > "Always" as in "except when it's abbreviated to b(*) or bl"?
> > I can't recall having seen "bbl" in the wild,
>
> I have. In the days when I used to read Newsweek (or maybe it was Time)
> I used to see it almost every week, and I had the same question as
> plumber533, but no one could tell me. For a while I thought it might
> mean "billion barrels", but even with the wimpy American billion that
> seemed too big a unit.

The question was LHW's in 1998.

I wish you-lot would get adequate news systems.

> > but my dictionary says it means "barrels" and presumably it comes from
> > "bl" in the same way that "pp" for pages comes from "p".
> >
> > (*) Crossword setters love this one.

What one?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-07-08 14:04:28 +0200, "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> said:

> On Friday, July 8, 2016 at 3:29:04 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2016-07-08 07:17:57 +0000, grabber said:
>>
>>> On 7/8/2016 7:58 AM, plumb...@aol.com wrote:
>>>> The blue barrel thing does not work as bbl was in cimmon use at least
>>>> in the 1700s well before the oil industry was using blue barrels.
>>>
>>> "Always" as in "except when it's abbreviated to b(*) or bl"?
>>> I can't recall having seen "bbl" in the wild,
>>
>> I have. In the days when I used to read Newsweek (or maybe it was Time)
>> I used to see it almost every week, and I had the same question as
>> plumber533, but no one could tell me. For a while I thought it might
>> mean "billion barrels", but even with the wimpy American billion that
>> seemed too big a unit.
>
> The question was LHW's in 1998.
>
> I wish you-lot would get adequate news systems.

What on earth is the silly little man on about?

>
>>> but my dictionary says it means "barrels" and presumably it comes from
>>> "bl" in the same way that "pp" for pages comes from "p".
>>>
>>> (*) Crossword setters love this one.
>
> What one?

--
athel

[grabber]

On 7/8/2016 12:14 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 08:59:56 +0100, grabber wrote:
>> I usually skip those kind of pages in news media.
>>
>
> obAUE: "that kind" or "those kinds".

So some people like to say, but that does not seem an accurate analysis
of the way things actually work.

What I actually skip is pages, not a kind, so "kind of pages" is
semantically plural. Verb agreement can certainly go with semantic
plurals when the subject is singular in form, and something similar
seems to be going on in this construction. The Merriam-Webster
Dictionary of English Usage has an interesting article on this with a
wide variety of examples.

[grabber]

On 7/8/2016 12:13 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 08:17:57 +0100, grabber wrote:
>> On 7/8/2016 7:58 AM, plumb...@aol.com wrote:
>>> The blue barrel thing does not work as bbl was in cimmon use at least in the 1700s well before the oil industry was using blue barrels.
>>
>> "Always" as in "except when it's abbreviated to b(*) or bl"?
>
> Which I have never seen.
>
>> I can't recall having seen "bbl" in the wild,
>
> Odd -- it's the standard abbreviation, at least when discussing
> quantities of oil.

Not so very odd, then, because I have never (as far as I can remember)
discussed quantities of oil.

I do crosswords fairly often, though, and "b" for barrel is very common
(because it's such an easy option for the setter) and "bl" much less so.
I can't remember encountering "bbl" in this context. It would have be
indicated in the clue by "barrels" rather than "barrel", as the
dictionary does not support the latter.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, July 8, 2016 at 8:56:28 AM UTC-4, athel...@yahoo wrote:
> On 2016-07-08 14:04:28 +0200, "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> said:
> > On Friday, July 8, 2016 at 3:29:04 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> On 2016-07-08 07:17:57 +0000, grabber said:
> >>> On 7/8/2016 7:58 AM, plumb...@aol.com wrote:

> >>>> The blue barrel thing does not work as bbl was in cimmon use at least
> >>>> in the 1700s well before the oil industry was using blue barrels.
> >>> "Always" as in "except when it's abbreviated to b(*) or bl"?
> >>> I can't recall having seen "bbl" in the wild,
> >> I have. In the days when I used to read Newsweek (or maybe it was Time)
> >> I used to see it almost every week, and I had the same question as
> >> plumber533, but no one could tell me. For a while I thought it might
> >> mean "billion barrels", but even with the wimpy American billion that
> >> seemed too big a unit.
> > The question was LHW's in 1998.
> > I wish you-lot would get adequate news systems.
>
> What on earth is the silly little man on about?

Asshole is back to "silly little man" now? (And there is no h in PTD.)

Apparently Asshole is so oblivious that he has no concept of lazarization of threads.

That, BTW, is an example of "never without provocation."

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 08:36:59 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Friday, July 8, 2016 at 8:56:28 AM UTC-4, athel...@yahoo wrote:
>> On 2016-07-08 14:04:28 +0200, "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> said:
>> > On Friday, July 8, 2016 at 3:29:04 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> >> On 2016-07-08 07:17:57 +0000, grabber said:
>> >>> On 7/8/2016 7:58 AM, plumb...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> >>>> The blue barrel thing does not work as bbl was in cimmon use at least
>> >>>> in the 1700s well before the oil industry was using blue barrels.
>> >>> "Always" as in "except when it's abbreviated to b(*) or bl"?
>> >>> I can't recall having seen "bbl" in the wild,
>> >> I have. In the days when I used to read Newsweek (or maybe it was Time)
>> >> I used to see it almost every week, and I had the same question as
>> >> plumber533, but no one could tell me. For a while I thought it might
>> >> mean "billion barrels", but even with the wimpy American billion that
>> >> seemed too big a unit.
>> > The question was LHW's in 1998.
>> > I wish you-lot would get adequate news systems.
>>
>> What on earth is the silly little man on about?
>
>Asshole is back to "silly little man" now? (And there is no h in PTD.)

Athel is paying homage to the Willard Manus novel "Mott the Hoople".
Norman Mott worked in a circus with the freak show characters.

Looking up the novel because I had forgotten Mott's first name, I
learned that a "hoople" is foolish, ridiculous or worthless person.
Burrowing further into the subject, it probably originated with the
comic strip character Major Hoople.

http://arnoldzwicky.s3.amazonaws.com/MajorHoople.jpg

I picked this panel as an example of the comic because it contains an
expression that I had not seen before: Healthy as a butcher's cat. A
cat, probably, that is too fat to be swung in even the limited arc of
PTD's awareness.

Somehow, I don't see Athel as a fan of the band of the MThH type
although he may be intrigued by the name of one of their recordings:
Honaloochie Boogie.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[the Omrud]

On 08/07/2016 17:26, Tony Cooper wrote:

> Athel is paying homage to the Willard Manus novel "Mott the Hoople".
> Norman Mott worked in a circus with the freak show characters.
>
> Looking up the novel because I had forgotten Mott's first name, I
> learned that a "hoople" is foolish, ridiculous or worthless person.
> Burrowing further into the subject, it probably originated with the
> comic strip character Major Hoople.
>
> http://arnoldzwicky.s3.amazonaws.com/MajorHoople.jpg
>
> I picked this panel as an example of the comic because it contains an
> expression that I had not seen before: Healthy as a butcher's cat. A
> cat, probably, that is too fat to be swung in even the limited arc of
> PTD's awareness.

There is a UK expression: "Fit as a butcher's dog". "Fit" as in
healthy, not as in attractive.

> Somehow, I don't see Athel as a fan of the band of the MThH type
> although he may be intrigued by the name of one of their recordings:
> Honaloochie Boogie.

Given Athel's age, and unless he was a far more serious youngster than
even I was, I suspect he may have residual fondness for "Roll Away the
Stone" and (in my opinion the less significant) "All the Young Dudes".

--
David

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 18:02:02 +0100, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 08/07/2016 17:26, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> Athel is paying homage to the Willard Manus novel "Mott the Hoople".
>> Norman Mott worked in a circus with the freak show characters.
>>
>> Looking up the novel because I had forgotten Mott's first name, I
>> learned that a "hoople" is foolish, ridiculous or worthless person.
>> Burrowing further into the subject, it probably originated with the
>> comic strip character Major Hoople.
>>
>> http://arnoldzwicky.s3.amazonaws.com/MajorHoople.jpg
>>
>> I picked this panel as an example of the comic because it contains an
>> expression that I had not seen before: Healthy as a butcher's cat. A
>> cat, probably, that is too fat to be swung in even the limited arc of
>> PTD's awareness.
>
>There is a UK expression: "Fit as a butcher's dog". "Fit" as in
>healthy, not as in attractive.

The expression that always make me smile is when some male says "She's
well fit" about some female. Because we (AmE) use "fit" with that
meaning, my first thought is that she's wearing a sweater that's a
tight fit.

Is it required to put (BrE: jumper) in the sentence above? I don't
know why that's done here. Those that know the AmE sweater is the BrE
jumper don't need it pointed out, and those who don't don't care.

>> Somehow, I don't see Athel as a fan of the band of the MThH type
>> although he may be intrigued by the name of one of their recordings:
>> Honaloochie Boogie.
>
>Given Athel's age, and unless he was a far more serious youngster than
>even I was, I suspect he may have residual fondness for "Roll Away the
>Stone" and (in my opinion the less significant) "All the Young Dudes".
--

[musika]

On 08/07/2016 20:17, Tony Cooper wrote:

> Is it required to put (BrE: jumper) in the sentence above? I don't
> know why that's done here. Those that know the AmE sweater is the BrE
> jumper don't need it pointed out, and those who don't don't care.
>

Sweater and jumper are interchangeable in most BriE dialects.

--
Ray
UK

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 20:55:31 +0100, musika <mUs...@NOSPAMexcite.com>
wrote:

Twinsets usually have one sweater that is designed to be worn over the
other sweater. Interchanging them would ruin the look.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Is that supposed to have something to do either with his revived epithet "silly
little man" or the h in "PThD"?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, July 8, 2016 at 1:02:08 PM UTC-4, the Omrud wrote:
> On 08/07/2016 17:26, Tony Cooper wrote:

> > http://arnoldzwicky.s3.amazonaws.com/MajorHoople.jpg
> >
> > I picked this panel as an example of the comic because it contains an
> > expression that I had not seen before: Healthy as a butcher's cat. A
> > cat, probably, that is too fat to be swung in even the limited arc of
> > PTD's awareness.
>
> There is a UK expression: "Fit as a butcher's dog". "Fit" as in
> healthy, not as in attractive.

'Attractive' is a British sense, so Americans wouldn't think of it in connection
with the butcher's dog, or with the butcher either, for that matter.

[Stan Brown]

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 18:02:02 +0100, the Omrud wrote:
> There is a UK expression: "Fit as a butcher's dog". "Fit" as in
> healthy, not as in attractive.
>

Does "fit" ever mean "attractive" in general? I've seen it used in
BrE with the meaning" in good condition physically, and therefore
attractive", but not just "generally attractive".

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 18:51:58 -0400, Stan Brown
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 18:02:02 +0100, the Omrud wrote:
>> There is a UK expression: "Fit as a butcher's dog". "Fit" as in
>> healthy, not as in attractive.
>>
>
>Does "fit" ever mean "attractive" in general? I've seen it used in
>BrE with the meaning" in good condition physically, and therefore
>attractive", but not just "generally attractive".

As I pointed out in another post, a commonly heard/seen expression is
"She's well fit". I can't imagine a male saying that about a female
who is not attractive. Just healthy-appearing wouldn't cut it.

A female "He's well fit" would put less emphasis on good looks. A
generally attractive appearance, perhaps a bit above average, but
women don't place the same high value on physical attractiveness in
men as men place on women.

Otherwise, men like me would never find mates.

[snide...@gmail.com]

"Psst, Mabel, look at that one ... now he's buff!"

/dps

[Lewis]

In message <ced0ob5d1fntfj92n...@4ax.com>

Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 18:51:58 -0400, Stan Brown
> <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>>On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 18:02:02 +0100, the Omrud wrote:
>>> There is a UK expression: "Fit as a butcher's dog". "Fit" as in
>>> healthy, not as in attractive.
>>>
>>
>>Does "fit" ever mean "attractive" in general? I've seen it used in
>>BrE with the meaning" in good condition physically, and therefore
>>attractive", but not just "generally attractive".

> As I pointed out in another post, a commonly heard/seen expression is
> "She's well fit". I can't imagine a male saying that about a female
> who is not attractive. Just healthy-appearing wouldn't cut it.

Yep.

> A female "He's well fit" would put less emphasis on good looks. A
> generally attractive appearance, perhaps a bit above average, but
> women don't place the same high value on physical attractiveness in
> men as men place on women.

And seem to place more value on physique.

> Otherwise, men like me would never find mates.

Some of us are able to overcome ugliness and a lack of physique, even.
Hard to believe, but seems to be true.


--
"Part of the inhumanity of the computer is that, once it is competently
programmed and working smoothly, it is completely honest." - Isaac
Asimov

[Janet]

In article <um10obpv0ipcsr97u...@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...

>
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 20:55:31 +0100, musika <mUs...@NOSPAMexcite.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On 08/07/2016 20:17, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >
> >> Is it required to put (BrE: jumper) in the sentence above? I don't
> >> know why that's done here. Those that know the AmE sweater is the BrE
> >> jumper don't need it pointed out, and those who don't don't care.
> >>
> >Sweater and jumper are interchangeable in most BriE dialects.
>
> Twinsets usually have one sweater that is designed to be worn over the
> other sweater.

No, they do not, in Br E. Twinsets have a short-sleeved thin knitted
garment worn beneath a matching thin knitted long sleeved cardigan.
Neither is what Brits would call a jumper or sweater.

Janet.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Whether or not Tony's Anglomania has got the better of him here, he is correct in his description of
the "twinset" as comprising two sweaters, a pullover (sounds like a sweater-vest) and a cardigan.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Some Brits would:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/twinset?q=twin+set

twinset
noun
chiefly British
A woman’s matching cardigan and jumper.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Dingbat]

Is only one of them a jumper? Or can you say 'a jumper over a jumper'?

[Janet]

In article <bdb0fdfd-fc49-474c...@googlegroups.com>,
gram...@verizon.net says...

Br E speakers would not identify the bottom layer of a twinset as a
pullover.

Janet

[Peter T. Daniels]

You'd already established you don't have a word for that.

Your local knitwear shop might, though. Or your neighbors who knit them.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Agreed.

This seller of twin-sets describes the items as a cardigan and,
underneath it, a jumper.
http://www.peterhahn.co.uk/search.php?query=Twin-sets&page=4&followSearch=10000&adword=google%2FTwinsets%2Ftwin%20set%20clothing%20uk&gclid=CO_RnI6I580CFdS7Gwodon0DTw&pmk=IPH1SEM110613-18
or
http://tinyurl.com/zavslu9

It seems to be the fact that the two garments are the same colour that
makes them "twins".

[Janet]

In article <dbf534b4-cba0-462e...@googlegroups.com>,

gram...@verizon.net says...
>
> On Saturday, July 9, 2016 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
> > In article <bdb0fdfd-fc49-474c...@googlegroups.com>,
> > gram...@verizon.net says...
> > > On Saturday, July 9, 2016 at 9:05:42 AM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
> > > > In article <um10obpv0ipcsr97u...@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
> > > > @gmail.com says...
> > > > > On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 20:55:31 +0100, musika <mUs...@NOSPAMexcite.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >On 08/07/2016 20:17, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> > > > > >> Is it required to put (BrE: jumper) in the sentence above? I don't
> > > > > >> know why that's done here. Those that know the AmE sweater is the BrE
> > > > > >> jumper don't need it pointed out, and those who don't don't care.
> > > > > >Sweater and jumper are interchangeable in most BriE dialects.
> > > > > Twinsets usually have one sweater that is designed to be worn over the
> > > > > other sweater.
> > > > No, they do not, in Br E. Twinsets have a short-sleeved thin knitted
> > > > garment worn beneath a matching thin knitted long sleeved cardigan.
> > > > Neither is what Brits would call a jumper or sweater.
> > > Whether or not Tony's Anglomania has got the better of him here, he is correct in his description of
> > > the "twinset" as comprising two sweaters, a pullover (sounds like a sweater-vest) and a cardigan.
> >
> > Br E speakers would not identify the bottom layer of a twinset as a
> > pullover.
>
> You'd already established you don't have a word for that.
>

We do have a word for pullover, it's pullover.

Janet.

[Cheryl]

I didn't think they still sold twin-sets. I thought they went out of
style in the 1950s, but I gather from google that they had a resurgence
in the 1990s.

The fact that I was completely unaware of that is probably due to my
lack of knowledge or interest in fashion.


--
Cheryl

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Tony Cooper]

Full circle. In the US, a "cardigan" is a style of sweater. The only
difference between a cardigan and a sweater is that the cardigan is
open in the front and buttons up the front. Just as a "pullover" is a
type of sweater. It is a sweater that is not open in the front has
no buttons.

Since a "jumper" is a sweater in the US, a twinset with a cardigan
over a jumper is one sweater worn over another sweater.

So, if Janet flies to the US wearing a twinset, she is correct until
she crosses into US territory.

[Tony Cooper]

You will have to ask a BrE speaker because a "jumper" in the US is
someone on a high ledge or bridge threatening to commit suicide.

We also have "jumper cables", but they are not those elastic things
that people who jump off bridges wear that stop them (theoretically)
before they enter the water. They are cables that are used to start a
vehicle with a dead battery by attaching it to another vehicle's
battery.

I write this knowing full well that there is probably some BrE term
for what we call an "automobile battery" and a BrE term for those
cables. It is probably "sparking box" and "spark conduits". If not
in general BrE, at least in the language of British hire car firms
because they like to totally baffle AmE users of their vehicles.

[musika]

Hehe, not quite. Car battery and jump leads.

--
Ray
UK

[Peter T. Daniels]

Then why did you (a) not use that word in your initial description, and (b)
object when I used it?

[Mark Brader]

Tony Cooper:

> > We also have "jumper cables", but they are not those elastic things
> > that people who jump off bridges wear that stop them (theoretically)
> > before they enter the water. They are cables that are used to start a
> > vehicle with a dead battery by attaching it to another vehicle's
> > battery.
> >
> > I write this knowing full well that there is probably some BrE term
> > for what we call an "automobile battery" and a BrE term for those
> > cables. It is probably "sparking box" and "spark conduits".

"Ray":

> Hehe, not quite. Car battery and jump leads.

In fact I saw "jumper" used in a modern British source to refer
to an electrical connection just the other day. However, the
context was not cars, but *railway* cars, or specifically London
Underground cars. This was Piers Connor writing in this month's
issue of "Underground News". Excerpts:

# The whole subject of coupling, jumpers and hoses might not be
# something the average railway enthusiast really thinks about but,
# for the poor staff who have to use them and maintain them, they
# are very important.
...
# Up until 1920, there was a standard setup on the LER, where the
# two hoses (known on the Underground as the Main Line and Train
# Line hoses), were positioned on standpipes at waist level either
# side of the end doorway. Jumpers for the electrical connections
# were usually at roof level. However, when the new Watford Joint
# Stock arrived in 1920, jumpers were moved down to the lower part
# of the waist panels. This involved lifting the positions of the
# end lights slightly to accommodate them. What I thought was odd
# was that the 1920 Cammell Laird stock was designed with the jumpers
# at roof level, either side of the end doorway...

--
Mark Brader, Toronto, m...@vex.net | "Fast, cheap, good: choose any two."

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Mark Brader]

>>> I can't recall having seen "bbl" in the wild,

>> Odd -- it's the standard abbreviation, at least when discussing
>> quantities of oil.

> Not so very odd, then, because I have never (as far as I can remember)
> discussed quantities of oil.
>
> I do crosswords fairly often, though, and "b" for barrel is very common
> (because it's such an easy option for the setter) ...

I in turn am surprised at this, because I've done a fair number of
British crosswords and don't remember ever coming across this.
--
Mark Brader "Remember, this is Mark we're dealing with.
Toronto Rationality and fact won't work very well."
m...@vex.net -- Jeff Scott Franzman

[grabber]

On 7/10/2016 8:33 AM, Mark Brader wrote:
>>>> I can't recall having seen "bbl" in the wild,
>
>>> Odd -- it's the standard abbreviation, at least when discussing
>>> quantities of oil.
>
>> Not so very odd, then, because I have never (as far as I can remember)
>> discussed quantities of oil.
>>
>> I do crosswords fairly often, though, and "b" for barrel is very common
>> (because it's such an easy option for the setter) ...
>
> I in turn am surprised at this, because I've done a fair number of
> British crosswords and don't remember ever coming across this.

Which ones do you do? Possibly "barrel" for B is less common in the
daily series like the Times, Guardian and Telegraph than it is in the
thematic barred puzzles like Listener, EV and Magpie. It last appeared
in the Magpie in the March issue this year (so about 25 puzzles ago) and
in the Listener on Jan 30, 2015, which would be about 70 puzzles ago.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Please take this to rec.puzzles.crosswords, where Brader fancies himself the
czar and will "killfile" you if you disagree with him or his methods.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

A type of "jumpers" is used in computers.

http://www.computerhope.com/jargon/j/jumper.htm

Jumpers are used to configure the settings for computer peripherals
such as the motherboard, hard drives, modems, sound cards, and other
components.

Today, most users will not need to adjust any jumpers on their
motherboard or expansion cards. Usually, you are most likely to
encounter jumpers when installing a new drive, such as a hard drive.
As can be seen in the picture below, ATA (IDE) hard drives have
jumpers with three sets of two pins. Moving a jumper between each
two pins will change the drive from master drive, slave drive, or
cable select.

That page has images of such jumpers.

[Janet]

In article <d274fa4e-5fbb-4f08...@googlegroups.com>,

Because the type of sweater we call a pullover, is not one of the two
garments in a twinset.

Janet

[Janet]

In article <8ct2obhmrcag19g5d...@4ax.com>, tonycooper214

As if anyone flying to Orlando Florida would wear two sweaters.

Janet.

[Katy Jennison]

In MyE, the bottom layer of a twinset might just about be called a short
sleeved jumper/pullover/sweater, but a cardigan is absolutely not a
sweater, nor a jumper nor a pullover. Ss, js and ps all go on over the
head. They do not unbutton all the way down the front.

I had a twinset once. Must be, oh, fifty or sixty years ago. I wonder
what happened to it. No, I don't.

--
Katy Jennison

[Tony Cooper]

Macy's doesn't use your E.

http://www1.macys.com/shop/womens-clothing/womens-sweaters?id=260&edge=hybrid&cm_mmc=Google_Womens_Trademark-_-Womens_Generic_TM_Sweaters_Broad_Google_Macy%27s+Womens+Cardigans-_-77159769636_Broad-_-macy%27s%20womens%20cardigan_mkwid_sr8Ftzeru%7Cdc_77159769636%7C-%7Cr8Ftzeru&gclid=Cj0KEQjw5Ie8BRCJ9fHlr_bH24cBEiQAkoDQcTvDMlfTAz63iV3x0ieZWloSAtlBd4nYldaI0qJrVkEaAur68P8HAQ&EFCKEY=%7B%22EXPERIMENT%22%3A%5B1533%5D%7D&SEED=8460526403924398566

They list cardigans as a "Sweater Style".

What I don't understand is why Brits *don't* consider cardigans to be
a sweater. We usually wear a sweater when the weather is cool enough
to want an extra layer of clothing. The only difference between a
cardigan-style sweater and a pullover-type sweater is that the
cardigan is open in front and buttons up. The material, weight,
warmth-factor, and everything else except the open front and buttons
can be the same as a pullover.

To me, it's like saying a v-neck sweater is different from a
round-neck sweater in some substantial way because there's some design
difference.

I have a cardigan-style lamb's wool sweater. I like it in the cooler
weather because it can be put on and taken off easier than a pull-over
and it is less restrictive. I sometimes take it when we go to a
restaurant because some of our restaurants crank up the air
conditioning to the point of discomfort. It's easy to slip on and
off.

[Katy Jennison]

On 10/07/2016 17:33, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jul 2016 15:18:19 +0100, Katy Jennison
> <ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> wrote:

>>
>> In MyE, the bottom layer of a twinset might just about be called a short
>> sleeved jumper/pullover/sweater, but a cardigan is absolutely not a
>> sweater, nor a jumper nor a pullover. Ss, js and ps all go on over the
>> head. They do not unbutton all the way down the front.
>>
>
> Macy's doesn't use your E.
>
> http://www1.macys.com/shop/womens-clothing/womens-sweaters?id=260&edge=hybrid&cm_mmc=Google_Womens_Trademark-_-Womens_Generic_TM_Sweaters_Broad_Google_Macy%27s+Womens+Cardigans-_-77159769636_Broad-_-macy%27s%20womens%20cardigan_mkwid_sr8Ftzeru%7Cdc_77159769636%7C-%7Cr8Ftzeru&gclid=Cj0KEQjw5Ie8BRCJ9fHlr_bH24cBEiQAkoDQcTvDMlfTAz63iV3x0ieZWloSAtlBd4nYldaI0qJrVkEaAur68P8HAQ&EFCKEY=%7B%22EXPERIMENT%22%3A%5B1533%5D%7D&SEED=8460526403924398566
>
> They list cardigans as a "Sweater Style".
>
> What I don't understand is why Brits *don't* consider cardigans to be
> a sweater.

It's possible that other Brits -- many, even perhaps all -- are very
happy to consider a cardigan a sweater. I'm not one who believes that
everyone conforms to my own idiosyncrasies.

We usually wear a sweater when the weather is cool enough
> to want an extra layer of clothing. The only difference between a
> cardigan-style sweater and a pullover-type sweater is that the
> cardigan is open in front and buttons up. The material, weight,
> warmth-factor, and everything else except the open front and buttons
> can be the same as a pullover.
>
> To me, it's like saying a v-neck sweater is different from a
> round-neck sweater in some substantial way because there's some design
> difference.
>
> I have a cardigan-style lamb's wool sweater. I like it in the cooler
> weather because it can be put on and taken off easier than a pull-over
> and it is less restrictive. I sometimes take it when we go to a
> restaurant because some of our restaurants crank up the air
> conditioning to the point of discomfort. It's easy to slip on and
> off.


--

Katy Jennison

[Jerry Friedman]

On 7/10/16 3:33 AM, grabber wrote:
> On 7/10/2016 8:33 AM, Mark Brader wrote:
>>>>> I can't recall having seen "bbl" in the wild,
>>
>>>> Odd -- it's the standard abbreviation, at least when discussing
>>>> quantities of oil.
>>
>>> Not so very odd, then, because I have never (as far as I can remember)
>>> discussed quantities of oil.
>>>
>>> I do crosswords fairly often, though, and "b" for barrel is very common
>>> (because it's such an easy option for the setter) ...
>>
>> I in turn am surprised at this, because I've done a fair number of
>> British crosswords and don't remember ever coming across this.
>
> Which ones do you do? Possibly "barrel" for B is less common in the
> daily series like the Times, Guardian and Telegraph than it is in the
> thematic barred puzzles

Barred? *googles* Oh, one of those, with heavy lines to separate the
words.

> like Listener, EV and Magpie. It last appeared
> in the Magpie in the March issue this year (so about 25 puzzles ago) and
> in the Listener on Jan 30, 2015, which would be about 70 puzzles ago.

Are you keeping records? Remembering enough of the clue to search an
archive? Just curious.

--
Jerry Friedman
"No Trump" bridge-themed political shirts: cafepress.com/jerrysdesigns
Bumper stickers ditto: cafepress/jerrysstickers

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 10 Jul 2016 15:18:19 +0100, Katy Jennison
<ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> wrote:

AFAIK a twinset is worn by women only. I've never heard of a twinset for
men.

[grabber]

On 7/10/2016 5:53 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 7/10/16 3:33 AM, grabber wrote:
>> On 7/10/2016 8:33 AM, Mark Brader wrote:
>>>>>> I can't recall having seen "bbl" in the wild,
>>>
>>>>> Odd -- it's the standard abbreviation, at least when discussing
>>>>> quantities of oil.
>>>
>>>> Not so very odd, then, because I have never (as far as I can remember)
>>>> discussed quantities of oil.
>>>>
>>>> I do crosswords fairly often, though, and "b" for barrel is very common
>>>> (because it's such an easy option for the setter) ...
>>>
>>> I in turn am surprised at this, because I've done a fair number of
>>> British crosswords and don't remember ever coming across this.
>>
>> Which ones do you do? Possibly "barrel" for B is less common in the
>> daily series like the Times, Guardian and Telegraph than it is in the
>> thematic barred puzzles
>
> Barred? *googles* Oh, one of those, with heavy lines to separate the
> words.

Yep.

>> like Listener, EV and Magpie. It last appeared
>> in the Magpie in the March issue this year (so about 25 puzzles ago) and
>> in the Listener on Jan 30, 2015, which would be about 70 puzzles ago.
>
> Are you keeping records? Remembering enough of the clue to search an
> archive? Just curious.

Nah, but I do have access to pdfs of these two puzzle series. The Magpie
is a monthly publication with 5 crossword puzzles in every issue so it
was quite easy to CTRL-F my way through a few recent issues. The outcome
was encouraging enough to try the same task with the Listener, which
turned out to be more tedious, but still didn't take outrageously long.

Actually, I think that I should moderate my initial claim. I think
"barrel" for B is probably not acceptable at all in "standard" cryptics
(e.g. the blocked puzzles in the dailies) because it does not seem to be
widely supported by dictionaries other than Chambers.

For the barred puzzles, anything in Chambers goes. But the results of my
quick survey don't really support the claim that barrel=B is "very
common" even in those puzzles. However, people who solve puzzles in this
class do tend to become very familiar indeed with the Chambers entries
for single letters.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, July 10, 2016 at 10:06:26 AM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
> In article <8ct2obhmrcag19g5d...@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
> @gmail.com says...

> > So, if Janet flies to the US wearing a twinset, she is correct until
> > she crosses into US territory.
>
> As if anyone flying to Orlando Florida would wear two sweaters.

Sounds like you've never been on an airplane.

[RH Draney]

On 7/10/2016 9:33 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> What I don't understand is why Brits *don't* consider cardigans to be
> a sweater. We usually wear a sweater when the weather is cool enough
> to want an extra layer of clothing. The only difference between a
> cardigan-style sweater and a pullover-type sweater is that the
> cardigan is open in front and buttons up. The material, weight,
> warmth-factor, and everything else except the open front and buttons
> can be the same as a pullover.
>
> To me, it's like saying a v-neck sweater is different from a
> round-neck sweater in some substantial way because there's some design
> difference.

ObAUEWarHorse: You mean like the difference that makes an open-face
sandwich not a sandwich?...r

[grabber]

Given that you can handle the concept that "cardigan" is reserved for a
particular kind of garment which buttons up down the front, what is hard
about the idea that (in a dialect other than yours), "sweater" could be
reserved for a particular kind of garment which doesn't?

[Tony Cooper]

Because I don't equate "style" with "kind". They are both the kind of
garment known as a sweater, but they are different styles of that
kind.

[Dr. HotSalt]

On Friday, July 8, 2016 at 12:55:45 PM UTC-7, musika wrote:
> On 08/07/2016 20:17, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> > Is it required to put (BrE: jumper) in the sentence above? I don't
> > know why that's done here. Those that know the AmE sweater is the BrE
> > jumper don't need it pointed out, and those who don't don't care.
> >
> Sweater and jumper are interchangeable in most BriE dialects.

Then why was Christopher Eccleston's Doctor Who constantly berated for wearing a leather "jumper" that to my American eyes was a jacket?

http://showbizgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Screen-Shot-2013-11-21-at-12.46.39.png


Dr. HotSalt

[David Kleinecke]

Definitely a leather jacket. The only other name I know of for
the garment is aviator's jacket.

[Ross]

On Sunday, July 10, 2016 at 10:25:12 AM UTC+12, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 08:03:58 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, July 9, 2016 at 1:33:41 AM UTC+5:30, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 20:55:31 +0100, musika <mUs...@NOSPAMexcite.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 08/07/2016 20:17, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Is it required to put (BrE: jumper) in the sentence above? I don't
> >> >> know why that's done here. Those that know the AmE sweater is the BrE
> >> >> jumper don't need it pointed out, and those who don't don't care.
> >> >>
> >> >Sweater and jumper are interchangeable in most BriE dialects.
> >>
> >> Twinsets usually have one sweater that is designed to be worn over the
> >> other sweater. Interchanging them would ruin the look.
> >> --
> >Is only one of them a jumper? Or can you say 'a jumper over a jumper'?
>
> You will have to ask a BrE speaker because a "jumper" in the US is
> someone on a high ledge or bridge threatening to commit suicide.

Reluctant though I am to add to the confusion, I must note
that my sister (in Canada, in the 50s) sometimes wore a
jumper, which was not a sweater but a kind of dress. Wiki
appears to think that this is also an American term for
what would elsewhere be called a pinafore or pinafore dress.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumper_(dress)

[Cheryl]

Oh, yes, I wore jumpers (as in dress) as a child. I think I might have
had a twin-set too, but that was when I was very young. School uniforms
sometimes included jumpers for girls, but to add to the confusion, they
were also called tunics. Nowadays, tunics are a kind of blouse or shirt.

[Oliver Cromm]

* grabber:

> Actually, I think that I should moderate my initial claim. I think
> "barrel" for B is probably not acceptable at all in "standard" cryptics
> (e.g. the blocked puzzles in the dailies) because it does not seem to be
> widely supported by dictionaries other than Chambers.

I don't understand what all this is about because standard
crossword puzzles don't have one-letter answers.

--
Performance: A statement of the speed at which a computer system
works. Or rather, might work under certain circumstances. Or was
rumored to be working over in Jersey about a month ago.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Katy Jennison:

> In MyE, the bottom layer of a twinset might just about be called a short
> sleeved jumper/pullover/sweater, but a cardigan is absolutely not a
> sweater, nor a jumper nor a pullover. Ss, js and ps all go on over the
> head. They do not unbutton all the way down the front.

Cardigans are called "knitted jackets" (Strickjacke) in German, so
I consider them a kind of jacket.

--
A computer will do what you tell it to do, but that may be much
different from what you had in mind. - Joseph Weizenbaum

[grabber]

On 7/11/2016 4:10 AM, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> * grabber:
>
>> Actually, I think that I should moderate my initial claim. I think
>> "barrel" for B is probably not acceptable at all in "standard" cryptics
>> (e.g. the blocked puzzles in the dailies) because it does not seem to be
>> widely supported by dictionaries other than Chambers.
>
> I don't understand what all this is about because standard
> crossword puzzles don't have one-letter answers.

I should have been clearer from the start that I mean cryptic
crosswords, which I think are primarily a British thing. though not
unknown elsewhere.

Cryptic clues don't just define the answer, but also give another route
to the sequence of letters needed, often by breaking the word up into
fragments and definining these separately.

So you might get a clue like "Knock barrel down (4)" giving the answer
BLOW. "Knock" is the definition of the answer BLOW. But BLOW can be
split up as B + LOW, and we have "barrel" indicating the B, and "down"
the LOW.

[Mark Brader]

> > I in turn am surprised at this, because I've done a fair number of
> > British crosswords and don't remember ever coming across this.
>
> Which ones do you do?

None regularly.

> Possibly "barrel" for B is less common in the

> daily series like the Times, Guardian and Telegraph...

And those would be the ones I've done. Thanks.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "When you're up to your ass in alligators, maybe
m...@vex.net | you're in the wrong swamp." -- Bill Stewart

[Mark Brader]

Peter Duncanson:

> A type of "jumpers" is used in computers.

Well, sure, everyone knows about those.
--
Mark Brader | "My mind is like a steel trap; it snaps closed
Toronto | and is almost impossible to pry open"
m...@vex.net | --Michael Wares

[grabber]

And if you take that as a fixed point, then of course you are going to
struggle with the other usage, in which this is not the case. If you
want to understand the other usage, you might have to temporarily stop
assuming your own.

Or perhaps your point is that you think that cardigans and (what I think
we can agree to call) pullovers have such compelling similarities that
there must be a name for the superclass to which they (and no other
garments) belong. This is not necessarily the case, and it seems that
completely different classifications are in use: BrE terminology is
perhaps one example (though "knitted top" might work) but see also
Oliver Cromm's post about cardigans in German.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, July 10, 2016 at 11:10:05 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> * grabber:

> > Actually, I think that I should moderate my initial claim. I think
> > "barrel" for B is probably not acceptable at all in "standard" cryptics
> > (e.g. the blocked puzzles in the dailies) because it does not seem to be
> > widely supported by dictionaries other than Chambers.
>
> I don't understand what all this is about because standard
> crossword puzzles don't have one-letter answers.

Britsh (AmE cryptic) crosswords are tortuously clued with puns, sometimes one
letter at a time.

The very first one I ever attempted, which I was being instructed from, included
as part of a clue "King of jazz." I said I didn't know anything about jazz so
how could I guess who counted as its royalty -- but it was simply cluing the
letters BB.

[Tony Cooper]

The hope is that it is your memory that is faulty, and not the British
cryptic puzzle. Riley B. King, aka B.B. King, was known as "the King
of the Blues".

A "King of Jazz" clue would have led to the letters "PW".

The Blues is different both from and than Jazz.

[RH Draney]

On 7/10/2016 9:40 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> Britsh (AmE cryptic) crosswords are tortuously clued with puns, sometimes one
> letter at a time.
>
> The very first one I ever attempted, which I was being instructed from, included
> as part of a clue "King of jazz." I said I didn't know anything about jazz so
> how could I guess who counted as its royalty -- but it was simply cluing the
> letters BB.

A non-cryptic answer to the same clue would likely be OLIVER....r

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 10 Jul 2016 16:53:39 -0700 (PDT), Ross <benl...@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:

This is one of the very few cases[1] where Oxford Dictionaries Online
has an image rather than a description.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/jumper#jumper__2

[1] It's the only one I've seen. There may or may no be others.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

The says:
http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2011/07/how-to-dress-like-the-ninth-doctor

the key to the Ninth Doctor’s costume is the jacket. It’s a
medium-length leather coat, with big lapels

I agree with that description.

Ah ha!

After some Googling I've found this:

http://www.black-leatherjacket.com/griffin-jacket

Griffin Leather Jumper Jacket

This ultra tech smooth outline Moto calfskin jacket is impeccably
propelled from the Hollywood film "Jumper". Jamie Bell (as Griffin)
wore this Jumper Jacket.

Image:
http://www.black-leatherjacket.com/image/cache/data/Griffin-leather-jumper-jacket/jumper-jacket-900x900.jpg

So, a "jumper jacket" is a leather jacket of the type seen in the film
"Jumper", although the original jacket is shorter than the jacket/coat
worn by Christopher Eccleston's Doctor Who.

"Jumper" the movie:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489099/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_16

A "Jumper" in that movie is a person with teleportation ability: the
ability to "jump" from one place to another.

[Katy Jennison]

Oh, yes, what we called gym-slips. (Confusion? What confusion?)

Nowadays, tunics are a kind of blouse or shirt.
>


--

Katy Jennison

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 01:04:05 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 10 Jul 2016 21:40:13 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
><gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sunday, July 10, 2016 at 11:10:05 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>>> * grabber:
>>
>>> > Actually, I think that I should moderate my initial claim. I think
>>> > "barrel" for B is probably not acceptable at all in "standard" cryptics
>>> > (e.g. the blocked puzzles in the dailies) because it does not seem to be
>>> > widely supported by dictionaries other than Chambers.
>>>
>>> I don't understand what all this is about because standard
>>> crossword puzzles don't have one-letter answers.
>>
>>Britsh (AmE cryptic) crosswords are tortuously clued with puns, sometimes one
>>letter at a time.
>>
>>The very first one I ever attempted, which I was being instructed from, included
>>as part of a clue "King of jazz." I said I didn't know anything about jazz so
>>how could I guess who counted as its royalty -- but it was simply cluing the
>>letters BB.
>
>The hope is that it is your memory that is faulty, and not the British
>cryptic puzzle. Riley B. King, aka B.B. King, was known as "the King
>of the Blues".
>

That's taking it a bit too literally. BB King was from the world of
jazz. He was a King from that world.

>A "King of Jazz" clue would have led to the letters "PW".
>
>The Blues is different both from and than Jazz.

--

[Janet]

In article <dug61h...@mid.individual.net>, cper...@mun.ca says...

Ours were tunics. On cold days we wore a navy blue cardigan over the
navy blue tunic. No twinsets were involved.

Janet.

[Tony Cooper]

But he was known as "the King of the Blues". A decent clue would use
the specific, rather than the general, in this case.

http://www.bbking.com/\

Even Wiki goes along with that title bestowed on him:

"King was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1987, and is
considered one of the most influential blues musicians of all time,
earning the nickname "The King of the Blues"...".

>>A "King of Jazz" clue would have led to the letters "PW".
>>
>>The Blues is different both from and than Jazz.
--

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 08:46:01 -0400, Tony Cooper

I suspect there are many crossword solvers who have heard of BB King and
know that he is a jazz musician but don't know of him as "King of the
Blues". He is simply someone named "King" from the jazz world.

>http://www.bbking.com/\
>
>Even Wiki goes along with that title bestowed on him:
>
>"King was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1987, and is
>considered one of the most influential blues musicians of all time,
>earning the nickname "The King of the Blues"...".
>
>
>>>A "King of Jazz" clue would have led to the letters "PW".
>>>
>>>The Blues is different both from and than Jazz.

--

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:06:28 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

The question, though, is PTD's memory accurate when he says the clue
was "King of Jazz" and not "King of the Blues". This can't be
determined, of course, since PTD is unlikely to admit he may have
misremembered.

A qualified cluemaker wouldn't use "King of Jazz" to suggest "BB"
because that title was claimed by Paul Whiteman and used for the title
of a 1930 movie.

I am a bit surprised that you mention that crossword solvers don't
know him as "The King of the Blues". Isn't the point of the cryptic
puzzle providing clues that are difficult to figure out? "Musical
American King" would suffice for an easy clue.

>>http://www.bbking.com/\
>>
>>Even Wiki goes along with that title bestowed on him:
>>
>>"King was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1987, and is
>>considered one of the most influential blues musicians of all time,
>>earning the nickname "The King of the Blues"...".
>>
>>
>>>>A "King of Jazz" clue would have led to the letters "PW".
>>>>
>>>>The Blues is different both from and than Jazz.
--

[grabber]

"King of the Blues" would not be a good indicator of "B B", because it
would really signify "B B King", and there is no excuse for ignoring the
surname. Interpreting "King of Jazz" as "a King who played jazz" makes
that much more defensible as an indicator of "B B" alone.

If there is someone else known as "King of Jazz", so much the better;
misdirection is actively encouraged as long as the intended
interpretation is watertight.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Feel free to check the puzzles in *The Atlantic Monthly* (as it still was then),
which I subscribed to, and in *Harper's*, which my instructor subscribed to,
from, say, 1982 to 1985: it would have been during that period.

Since the answer obviously was not simply "BB," the phrase, obviously, was only
part of a clue.

> A qualified cluemaker wouldn't use "King of Jazz" to suggest "BB"
> because that title was claimed by Paul Whiteman and used for the title
> of a 1930 movie.
>
> I am a bit surprised that you mention that crossword solvers don't
> know him as "The King of the Blues". Isn't the point of the cryptic
> puzzle providing clues that are difficult to figure out? "Musical
> American King" would suffice for an easy clue.

On last night's *$100,000 Pyramid*, Martha Stewart was awarded the epithet
"Domestic Goddess" by host Michael Strahan. That title, however, was assumed
by Roseanne [Barr] in the 1980s.

Martha, BTW, was not a good player; she spoke too slowly and with phrases that
were too full to be good clues in getting 6 answers in 30 seconds.

[Tony Cooper]

I don't work British cryptic puzzles, but if I understand what they
are, the answer to the clue is written into spaces in the puzzle. Two
spaces would be provided for the answer to this question. Right?

That leads me to believe the clue asks for two characters, and B B
would be the required answer. So, why does the "King of Jazz" as a
clue better suggest B B than "The King of the Blues"?

The only reason I can think that "Jazz" makes the clue easier is that
"jazz" is more recognizable as a musical form by more Brits than
"blues". But, is the intention to make the clue easier?

>If there is someone else known as "King of Jazz", so much the better;
>misdirection is actively encouraged as long as the intended
>interpretation is watertight.

That suggests P W as the answer, but it is a rather bad clue to people
who follow jazz. PW self-applied that nickname, but most people do
not associate PW's type of music with jazz nor did they at the time he
crowned himself with that nickname.

[grabber]

No. The answer would be a longer word containing the doublet "BB".

> That leads me to believe the clue asks for two characters, and B B
> would be the required answer. So, why does the "King of Jazz" as a
> clue better suggest B B than "The King of the Blues"?

Q: Who was "the King of Hollywood"?
A: Clark Gable (not Clark)

Q: Who was a King of Tennis?
A: Billy Jean

Q: Who was "the King of the Blues"
A: B B King (not B B)

Q: Who was a King of Jazz?
A: B B

[Katy Jennison]

On 11/07/2016 15:29, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:11:14 +0100, grabber <g...@bb.er> wrote:

>>
>> "King of the Blues" would not be a good indicator of "B B", because it
>> would really signify "B B King", and there is no excuse for ignoring the
>> surname. Interpreting "King of Jazz" as "a King who played jazz" makes
>> that much more defensible as an indicator of "B B" alone.
>
> I don't work British cryptic puzzles, but if I understand what they
> are, the answer to the clue is written into spaces in the puzzle. Two
> spaces would be provided for the answer to this question. Right?

Sort of. If you had six spaces for the whole answer, and you'd hit upon
a four-letter word for the other half of the clue, you'd be looking for
a further two letters.

Further, if the word "king" appears in the clue, it would absolutely not
also be part of the answer.

>
> That leads me to believe the clue asks for two characters, and B B
> would be the required answer. So, why does the "King of Jazz" as a
> clue better suggest B B than "The King of the Blues"?
>
> The only reason I can think that "Jazz" makes the clue easier is that
> "jazz" is more recognizable as a musical form by more Brits than
> "blues". But, is the intention to make the clue easier?

The sort of people who do this sort of crossword probably know more
senses of the word "blues" than the average dictionary.

--
Katy Jennison

[Peter T. Daniels]

But exactly as many as are in a Chambers dictionary.

I got me a used Chambers once -- it doesn't seem like it would be too useful
as a dictionary, because doesn't it string all together into one paragraph
all the derivatives and compounds under the head/first word? As if "blackbird"
and "blackboard" were included under "black" (no, I didn't look for that
particular example).

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 16:02:42 +0100, grabber <g...@bb.er> wrote:

>>>
>>> "King of the Blues" would not be a good indicator of "B B", because it
>>> would really signify "B B King", and there is no excuse for ignoring the
>>> surname. Interpreting "King of Jazz" as "a King who played jazz" makes
>>> that much more defensible as an indicator of "B B" alone.
>>
>> I don't work British cryptic puzzles, but if I understand what they
>> are, the answer to the clue is written into spaces in the puzzle. Two
>> spaces would be provided for the answer to this question. Right?
>
>No. The answer would be a longer word containing the doublet "BB".
>
>> That leads me to believe the clue asks for two characters, and B B
>> would be the required answer. So, why does the "King of Jazz" as a
>> clue better suggest B B than "The King of the Blues"?
>
>Q: Who was "the King of Hollywood"?
>A: Clark Gable (not Clark)
>
>Q: Who was a King of Tennis?
>A: Billy Jean
>
>Q: Who was "the King of the Blues"
>A: B B King (not B B)
>
>Q: Who was a King of Jazz?
>A: B B

I am sure you have a point in mind, but it is not getting across at
all. Not to me.

You have added the letter "a" to the question, and that changes the
question. PTD did not use that as his question. He wrote: "The very

first one I ever attempted, which I was being instructed from,

included as part of a clue "King of jazz."."

I added "The", mistakenly, but "King of Blues" would be - as far as
I'm concerned - the better clue for BB.

I am at a disadvantage, obviously, because I've never attempted one of
these puzzles and don't even know how many spaces are available for
the answer.
>
PTD has replied to my question about whether or not he correctly
recalls the wording of the clue, but - as expected - evades actually
providing an answer.

>> The only reason I can think that "Jazz" makes the clue easier is that
>> "jazz" is more recognizable as a musical form by more Brits than
>> "blues". But, is the intention to make the clue easier?
>>
>>> If there is someone else known as "King of Jazz", so much the better;
>>> misdirection is actively encouraged as long as the intended
>>> interpretation is watertight.
>>
>> That suggests P W as the answer, but it is a rather bad clue to people
>> who follow jazz. PW self-applied that nickname, but most people do
>> not associate PW's type of music with jazz nor did they at the time he
>> crowned himself with that nickname.
>>

[Peter T. Daniels]

I have a hell of a lot less leisure time to chase down a 30- to 35-year-old
puzzle than you do. I'm only here now because this morning I sent off a
commissioned chapter to the volume editors.

Moreover, you have been told that it does not matter.

Yet you, as you so often do, keep worrying at a bone that long since should
have splintered and stabbed you in sensitive tissues.

> >> The only reason I can think that "Jazz" makes the clue easier is that
> >> "jazz" is more recognizable as a musical form by more Brits than
> >> "blues". But, is the intention to make the clue easier?

Not sure who wrote that, since someone deleted all the attributions, but I
can guess: I shall aggressively ask, Do you think *The Atlantic Monthly*
and *Harper's* are British magazines?