English word for Coup d'etat?

[bruce bowser]

Papers tie US to 1950s Japan coup plot
China Daily - March 1, 2007
-- https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2007-03/01/content_816384.htm

[J. J. Lodder]

bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
[irrrelevancies]

"Coup d'etat" IS an English word, (two actually)

Jan

[bruce bowser]

e had me voor de gek kunnen houden: 5,900,000 ersatz suf english et 8,640,000 ersatz suf Frans ?? meer suf Frans.
------------
Définition : Coup d'Etat -
La Toupie
Les auteurs d'un coup d'État, ou putschistes, s'appuient en général sur tout ou partie de l'armée et bénéficient du soutien d'au moins une partie ... "

La Toupie
-- https://www.toupie.org/Dictionnaire/Coup_etat.htm

[Mack A. Damia]

"Coup" means "stroke" as in bash or Lenin's "smash". "Etat" means
"state".

Smashing the state, maybe. "Although Lenin recognized the need to
“smash” the state, not merely take it over, he did not similarly
recognize the need to “smash” capitalist production."

https://www.marxisthumanistinitiative.org/alternatives-to-capital/why-no-call-to-smash-capitalist-production-in-lenins-the-state-and-revolution.html

[J. J. Lodder]

bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 5:07:37 PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [irrrelevancies]
> >
> > "Coup d'etat" IS an English word, (two actually)
>
> e had me voor de gek kunnen houden: 5,900,000 ersatz suf english et
> 8,640,000 ersatz suf Frans ?? meer suf Frans.

There you are: ersatz is an English word too,

Jan

[bruce bowser]

On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 3:58:34 AM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 5:07:37 PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > > bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > [irrrelevancies]
> > >
> > > "Coup d'etat" IS an English word, (two actually)
> >
> > e had me voor de gek kunnen houden: 5,900,000 ersatz suf english et
> > 8,640,000 ersatz suf Frans ?? meer suf Frans.
> There you are: ersatz is an English word too,

Ook een nederlands en een frans woord. Ja, daar zijn we.

[Dingbat]

Don't know a plain English equivalent;
"bloodless coup" usually leaves out d'etat


Brinley Newton-John, Olivia's father, on retiring as Deputy Vice
Chancellor, U Newcastle, Australia, gave a speech:
<<I had developed a ‘habit of acting suaviter in modo
to supplement the Vice-Chancellor’s fortiter in re.>>
https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/newtonjohn-brinley-brin-18243

How do you say that in plain English?


What are these in plain English?
a la carte
bete noir
carte blanche
caveat emptor
coup de grace
creme de la creme
deja vu
esprit de corps
hors d' oeuvre
femme fatale
joie de vivre
RSVP

Many of them are listed here:
https://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/fw-french-phrases.htm

[Hibou]

Le 14/08/2022 à 21:01, Dingbat a écrit :
>
> What are these in plain English?
> a la carte
> bete noir
> carte blanche
> caveat emptor
> coup de grace
> creme de la creme
> deja vu
> esprit de corps
> hors d' oeuvre
> femme fatale
> joie de vivre
> RSVP
>
> Many of them are listed here:
> https://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/fw-french-phrases.htm

A few of them have simple English equivalents (buyer beware...), others
are already English. The French rarely say 'double entendre', for
instance. They tend to say 'double sens', as these sample translations show:

(Translations of 'double entendre' from English into French) -
<https://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/search?source=anglais&query=double+entendre>

So 'double entendre' is an English expression, not a French one.

[CDB]

On 8/15/2022 5:28 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:

> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> writes:

>> What are these in plain English? a la carte bete noir

> Twain wrote:

> |the auctioneer came skurrying through the plaza on a black |beast
> that had as many humps and corners on him as a dromedary , but his
> "black beast" hasn't the meaning of "bete noir".

Bugaboo (although that was the child-word in my family for what Ren and
Stimpy called nose goblins).

[occam]

"putsch" - well it's as English as 'coup d'etat"

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-08-15 04:33, Hibou wrote:
> Le 14/08/2022 à 21:01, Dingbat a écrit :
>>
>> What are these in plain English?
>> a la carte

On the wagon.
>> bete noir
Black Betty
>> carte blanche
Blanche is drunk, we'll have to carry her home

>> caveat emptor
>> coup de grace

Mow the lawn
>> creme de la creme
It's cream, really

>> deja vu
>> esprit de corps
>> hors d' oeuvre

Ladies of the night are coming here.

>> femme fatale
>> joie de vivre
>> RSVP
>>
>> Many of them are listed here:
>> https://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/fw-french-phrases.htm
>
> A few of them have simple English equivalents (buyer beware...), others
> are already English. The French rarely say 'double entendre', for
> instance. They tend to say 'double sens', as these sample translations
> show:
>
> (Translations of 'double entendre' from English into French) -
> <https://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/search?source=anglais&query=double+entendre>
>
>
> So 'double entendre' is an English expression, not a French one.

--
I recenly heard that scientists have isolated the gene that makes
scientists want to isolate genes.

[bruce bowser]

On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 3:25:48 PM UTC-4, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2022-08-15 04:33, Hibou wrote:
> > Le 14/08/2022 à 21:01, Dingbat a écrit :
> >>
> >> What are these in plain English?
> >> a la carte
> On the wagon.

Like a police wagon with enough donuts?
Non.

No, à la carte' means literally 'to the document' ('from the menu')

> >> bete noir
> Black Betty

No, 'black beast'.

> >> carte blanche

> Blanche is drunk, we'll have to carry her home

No. 'Carte' means 'document'. 'Blanche' means 'blank'. Hence, 'blank check'.

> >> caveat emptor
> >> coup de grace
> Mow the lawn

Non
No. It means 'stroke of grace' ('mercy killing')

> >> creme de la creme
> It's cream, really

No, 'top of the top'.

> >> deja vu
> >> esprit de corps
> >> hors d' oeuvre
> Ladies of the night are coming here.

Non. No, it means 'appetizers'.

> >> femme fatale

Dangerous woman

> >> joie de vivre

Joy of life.

> >> RSVP

“Répondez, S'il VousPlaît. “REPLY IF IT PLEASES YOU,”

> >> Many of them are listed here:
> >> https://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/fw-french-phrases.htm
> >
> > A few of them have simple English equivalents (buyer beware...), others
> > are already English. The French rarely say 'double entendre', for
> > instance. They tend to say 'double sens', as these sample translations
> > show:
> >
> > (Translations of 'double entendre' from English into French) -
> > <https://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/search?source=anglais&query=double+entendre>
> >
> >
> > So 'double entendre' is an English expression, not a French one.
> --
> I recenly heard that scientists have isolated the gene that makes
> scientists want to isolate genes.

'Double entente' or 'double sens' is known to have replaced 'double entendre', which is an older form of French.

[bruce bowser]

If you are a German major, then you might want a bit more word history (Begriffsursprung) for something like that. Putsch comes from the southern German/Swiss word bütsch from the 15th century (15. Jahrhundert), and is an onomatopia (lautmalerisch) for Knall (or explosive sound). Also, 'kick' ('Stoß' or 'Umsturtz') from back in the 1940s. Its 'staatsgreep' in Dutch.

-- https://www.wortbedeutung.info/Putsch/

[J. J. Lodder]

I just saw that: maitre d' is (American?) English to.
Just the maitre d' nothing following d' ,

Jan

[Jerry Friedman]

On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 2:01:38 PM UTC-6, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
...

> > What are these in plain English?
> > a la carte

...

> > Many of them are listed here:
> > https://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/fw-french-phrases.htm

> I just saw that: maitre d' is (American?) English to.
> Just the maitre d' nothing following d' ,

That is correct, pronounced /'meIt@r 'di/. Or "head waiter".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter Moylan]

On 16/08/22 05:42, bruce bowser wrote:
> On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 3:25:48 PM UTC-4, lar3ryca wrote:
>> On 2022-08-15 04:33, Hibou wrote:
>>> Le 14/08/2022 à 21:01, Dingbat a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> What are these in plain English? a la carte
>> On the wagon.
>
> Like a police wagon with enough donuts? Non.
>
> No, à la carte' means literally 'to the document' ('from the menu')

Whoosh.

There used to be a TV sitcom "Steptoe and Son", about two rag-and-bone
men who drove their horse and cart around the city collecting recyclable
rubbish. As I recall it, "A la carte" was used as a subtitle for the
series. Or perhaps it was just "A la cart".

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Peter Moylan]

> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Brinley Newton-John, Olivia's father, on retiring as Deputy Vice
>> Chancellor, U Newcastle, Australia, gave a speech: <<I had
>> developed a 'habit of acting suaviter in modo to supplement the
>> Vice-Chancellor's fortiter in re.>>
>> https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/newtonjohn-brinley-brin-18243

Totally off-topic, but I'll say it anyway. Olivia's death was big news
here, because we in Newcastle regard her as one of our own. Her father
Brin was a colleague of mine. Olivia lived mostly in Melbourne with her
mother, but she did go to school here for a while.

I myself spent a couple of nights in Olivia's bed. Unfortunately she
wasn't in it at the time.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2022-08-16 02:33:27 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

>>
>> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Brinley Newton-John, Olivia's father, on retiring as Deputy Vice
>>> Chancellor, U Newcastle, Australia, gave a speech: <<I had
>>> developed a 'habit of acting suaviter in modo to supplement the
>>> Vice-Chancellor's fortiter in re.>>
>>> https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/newtonjohn-brinley-brin-18243
>
> Totally off-topic, but I'll say it anyway. Olivia's death was big news
> here, because we in Newcastle regard her as one of our own. Her father
> Brin was a colleague of mine. Olivia lived mostly in Melbourne with her
> mother, but she did go to school here for a while.

I was impressed to learn the other ay that Max Born was her grandfather.

>
> I myself spent a couple of nights in Olivia's bed. Unfortunately she
> wasn't in it at the time.


--

Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[Bill Boei]

On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 4:45:37 AM UTC-7, CDB wrote:
> On 8/15/2022 5:28 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> > Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >> What are these in plain English? a la carte bete noir
> > Twain wrote:
>
> > |the auctioneer came skurrying through the plaza on a black |beast
> > that had as many humps and corners on him as a dromedary , but his
> > "black beast" hasn't the meaning of "bete noir".

Just don't put your a la carte before the bete noir.

>
> Bugaboo (although that was the child-word in my family for what Ren and
> Stimpy called nose goblins).

Here on the Left Coast, we have a mountain range called the Bugaboos, and a
provincial park to protect them. Just sayin'.

bill

[Peter Moylan]

Yes, a good solid pedigree.

Brin Newton-John was the Professor of German at Newcastle University.

[Hibou]

Le 15/08/2022 à 20:42, bruce bowser a écrit :
>> On 2022-08-15 04:33, Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>> A few of them have simple English equivalents (buyer beware...), others
>>> are already English. The French rarely say 'double entendre', for
>>> instance. They tend to say 'double sens', as these sample translations
>>> show:
>>>
>>> (Translations of 'double entendre' from English into French) -
>>> <https://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/search?source=anglais&query=double+entendre>
>>>
>>>
>>> So 'double entendre' is an English expression, not a French one.
>

> 'Double entente' or 'double sens' is known to have replaced 'double entendre', which is an older form of French.

Do you have a source for that, please? GNV (with all its limitations)
finds no instances of 'double entendre' in French before about 1665.
Prior to that, 'double sens' and 'double entente' seem to share the
honours (the data look shaky before 1600). Since ~1640, 'double sens'
has been more popular than 'double entente', and 'double entendre' is
down in the noise.

[Wolfgang]

But Ersatz is German, not French. In French, the German word is used for
a surrogate of coffee, also called succédané.

Ciao,
Wolfgang

[CDB]

On 8/16/2022 3:32 AM, Bill Boei wrote:

> CDB wrote:
>> Stefan Ram wrote:
>>> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> writes:

>>>> What are these in plain English? a la carte bete noir
>>> Twain wrote:

>>> |the auctioneer came skurrying through the plaza on a black
>>> |beast that had as many humps and corners on him as a dromedary ,
>>> but his "black beast" hasn't the meaning of "bete noir".

> Just don't put your a la carte before the bete noir.

>> Bugaboo (although that was the child-word in my family for what Ren
>> and Stimpy called nose goblins).

> Here on the Left Coast, we have a mountain range called the Bugaboos,
> and a provincial park to protect them. Just sayin'.

The WP illo makes them look black and beastly. WP also mentions that
the name comes from the time of the gold rush: prospectors used that
word to mean "dead end".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bugaboos

[CDB]

On 8/15/2022 3:25 PM, lar3ryca wrote:

> Hibou wrote:
>> Dingbat a écrit :

>>> What are these in plain English? a la carte
> On the wagon.
>>> bete noir
> Black Betty
>>> carte blanche
> Blanche is drunk, we'll have to carry her home
>>> caveat emptor

Back to the cellar, this bottle is done for.

>>> coup de grace
> Mow the lawn
>>> creme de la creme
> It's cream, really
>>> deja vu

You again?

>>> esprit de corps

Lock up your daughters; the boys are back from the front.

>>> hors d' oeuvre
> Ladies of the night are coming here.

To do the vacuuming.

[CDB]

On 8/15/2022 4:01 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

The no-tell hotel, innit.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2022-08-16 11:48:31 +0000, CDB said:

> On 8/15/2022 4:01 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> bruce bowser wrote:
>
>>>> Papers tie US to 1950s Japan coup plot China Daily - March 1,
>>>> 2007 --
>>>> https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2007-03/01/content_816384.htm
>
>>>
>>>>
> Don't know a plain English equivalent;
>>> "bloodless coup" usually leaves out d'etat
>
>>> Brinley Newton-John, Olivia's father, on retiring as Deputy Vice
>>> Chancellor, U Newcastle, Australia, gave a speech: <<I had
>>> developed a 'habit of acting suaviter in modo to supplement the
>>> Vice-Chancellor's fortiter in re.>>
>>> https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/newtonjohn-brinley-brin-18243

> "Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people should be aware that this
> website contains names, images, and voices of deceased persons.

> "In addition, some articles contain terms or views that were acceptable
> within mainstream Australian culture in the period in which they were
> written, but may no longer be considered appropriate.
> "These articles do not necessarily reflect the views of The Australian
> National University.
> "Older articles are being reviewed with a view to bringing them into
> line with contemporary values but the original text will remain
> available for historical context."

>
>>> How do you say that in plain English?
>
>>> What are these in plain English? a la carte bete noir carte
>>> blanche caveat emptor coup de grace creme de la creme deja vu esprit de
>>> corps hors d' oeuvre femme fatale joie de vivre RSVP
>
>>> Many of them are listed here:
>>> https://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/fw-french-phrases.htm
>
>> I just saw that: maitre d' is (American?) English to. Just the
>> maitre d' nothing following d' ,
>
> The no-tell hotel, innit.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 4:01:38 PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> I just saw that: maitre d' is (American?) English to.

To what?

[J. J. Lodder]

Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 2:01:38 PM UTC-6, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ...
>
> > > What are these in plain English?
> > > a la carte
> ...
>
> > > Many of them are listed here:
> > > https://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/fw-french-phrases.htm
>

> > I just saw that: maitre d' is (American?) English too.

> > Just the maitre d' nothing following d' ,
>
> That is correct, pronounced /'meIt@r 'di/. Or "head waiter".

Just curious, suppose you are there,
and you want that worthy's attention.
How do you call him? As Maitre?

Or do you just wave?

Jan

[Jerry Friedman]

On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 10:35:35 AM UTC-6, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 2:01:38 PM UTC-6, J. J. Lodder wrote:

[list of French phrases in English]

> > > I just saw that: maitre d' is (American?) English too.
> > > Just the maitre d' nothing following d' ,
> >
> > That is correct, pronounced /'meIt@r 'di/. Or "head waiter".

> Just curious, suppose you are there,
> and you want that worthy's attention.
> How do you call him? As Maitre?

In my English, that would be, "How do you call him? By saying,
'Maitre'?'" (Or "What do you call him, 'Maitre'? But that would be
inconsistent with your next question.)

> Or do you just wave?

I don't think I've ever been in a restaurant where I could identify such a
person, but I'd say, "Excuse me," the same thing I'd say to any waiter.
It's possible that I've never addressed anyone by the name of their job
except "Professor" and "Officer" (for a police officer). I would address
an elected official by job title, but I've never spoken to an elected
official.

Oh, wait, a former colleague of mine was a sergeant in the Army
Reserve, and I've called him "Sarge", if that counts. Also, when I
returned to college for my senior year and greeted my roommate who
was in ROTC (Reserve Officers' Training Corps), he said, "Congratulate
me," and I said, "Congratulations, Cadet Company Commander!" It
turned out to be correct. One of my former students was a lieutenant
in the Santa Fe Police Department, and I probably called him
"Lieutenant" at least once.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Tony Cooper]

I don't think either is ever necessary. One just approaches him/her,
waits until eye contact is made, and then addresses him/her.

Some maitre d's are very accomplished, though, at avoiding making eye
contact with patrons. The patron needs to hover.

When first approached, the reason is to state the name if a
reservation has been made, or to state the number that will be dining
("Table for two, please.")

Subsequent approaches are only made to complain about the wait for a
table, so the maitre d' isn't inclined to acknowledge the patron's
presence.

"him/her" is used because the difference between a maitre d' and a
host or hostess is usually just the price range of the establishment,
and the more down-market establishments around here usually have a
hostess.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[Jerry Friedman]

In my mind, another difference is that a maitre d' supervises the waiters
and gets to hear complaints about them. If there's a host or hostess
who just arranges for tables (the normal situation, I think), the waiters
are supervised by the manager.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 11:16:43 AM UTC-6, Jerry Friedman wrote:

[Waiter!]

> It's possible that I've never addressed anyone by the name of their job
> except "Professor" and "Officer" (for a police officer). I would address
> an elected official by job title, but I've never spoken to an elected
> official.

...

Not true. I can remember speaking to two mayors of this town and a
city councillor. The occasions were informal, and I didn't use any kind
of honorific. If I ran into my Congressional representative at a store or
something, and recognized her, I'd probably call her "Congresswoman"
or "Representative Fernandez" or something, though.

--
Jerry Friedman

[J. J. Lodder]

Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 10:35:35 AM UTC-6, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 2:01:38 PM UTC-6, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> [list of French phrases in English]
>
> > > > I just saw that: maitre d' is (American?) English too.
> > > > Just the maitre d' nothing following d' ,
> > >
> > > That is correct, pronounced /'meIt@r 'di/. Or "head waiter".
>
> > Just curious, suppose you are there,
> > and you want that worthy's attention.
> > How do you call him? As Maitre?
>
> In my English, that would be, "How do you call him? By saying,
> 'Maitre'?'" (Or "What do you call him, 'Maitre'? But that would be
> inconsistent with your next question.)

Inspired by Dutch usage, (from German)
A service person was a 'kelner', and the maitre type person
was an 'oberkelner', which was abreviated to ober. [1]

Of course all kelners became ober,
so calling 'ober' became the standard form
of calling for service.
Things have become more informal in the meantime,

Jan

1] Long ago there was also 'jongen', from French 'garcon'
but that is completely obsolete.

[wugi]

Op 15/08/2022 om 21:54 schreef bruce bowser:

I'd been thinking of suggesting a loan translation "state grip" but left
it, till now that is ;)
Or, perhaps in a more English & French vein, a state blow. But you
couldn't tell apart then a blow done to the state, and one carried out
by it...

--
guido wugi

[wugi]

Op 14/08/2022 om 22:01 schreef Dingbat:

> On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 11:40:14 AM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
>> Papers tie US to 1950s Japan coup plot
>> China Daily - March 1, 2007
>> -- https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2007-03/01/content_816384.htm
>

> Don't know a plain English equivalent;
> "bloodless coup" usually leaves out d'etat
>
>
> Brinley Newton-John, Olivia's father, on retiring as Deputy Vice
> Chancellor, U Newcastle, Australia, gave a speech:
> <<I had developed a ‘habit of acting suaviter in modo
> to supplement the Vice-Chancellor’s fortiter in re.>>
> https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/newtonjohn-brinley-brin-18243
>

> How do you say that in plain English?
>
>

> What are these in plain English?
> a la carte

> bete noir
> carte blanche
> caveat emptor
> coup de grace
> creme de la creme
> deja vu
> esprit de corps
> hors d' oeuvre
> femme fatale
> joie de vivre
> RSVP
>

> Many of them are listed here:
> https://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/fw-french-phrases.htm

I don't see
née

--
guido wugi

[Quinn C]

* Wolfgang:

The usual referent these days being chicorée, I guess on both sides of
the border.

--
Perhaps it might be well, while the subject is under discussion,
to attempt the creation of an entirely new gender, for the purpose
of facilitating reference to the growing caste of manly women and
womanly men. -- Baltimore Sun (1910)

[Quinn C]

* wugi:

> Op 15/08/2022 om 21:54 schreef bruce bowser:
>> On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 9:17:25 AM UTC-4, occam wrote:
>>> On 13/08/2022 20:40, bruce bowser wrote:
>>>> Papers tie US to 1950s Japan coup plot
>>>> China Daily - March 1, 2007
>>>> -- https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2007-03/01/content_816384.htm
>>> "putsch" - well it's as English as 'coup d'etat"
>>
>> If you are a German major, then you might want a bit more word
>> history (Begriffsursprung) for something like that. Putsch comes
>> from the southern German/Swiss word bütsch from the 15th century
>> (15. Jahrhundert), and is an onomatopia (lautmalerisch) for Knall
>> (or explosive sound). Also, 'kick' ('Stoß' or 'Umsturtz') from back
>> in the 1940s. Its 'staatsgreep' in Dutch.
>
> I'd been thinking of suggesting a loan translation "state grip" but left
> it, till now that is ;)
> Or, perhaps in a more English & French vein, a state blow.

How about "state knockout"?

> But you
> couldn't tell apart then a blow done to the state, and one carried out
> by it...

How can you tell with "coup d'état"?

--
Some things are taken away from you, some you leave behind-and
some you carry with you, world without end.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.31

[Peter Moylan]

On 16/08/22 21:56, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

[quoting from an article on Brin Newton-John]

>> "Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people should be aware that
>> this website contains names, images, and voices of deceased
>> persons.

A warning like that often occurs on the TV news. For some indigenous
people, mentioning a deceased person is very bad manners.

When the much-lauded singer Archie Roach died just recently, the TV
reporters sought permission from his family before mentioning his name
and giving other biographical details.

If you've never heard of Archie, search on UTube for the song "Took the
Children Away".

[Dingbat]

On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 12:54:04 PM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
> On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 9:17:25 AM UTC-4, occam wrote:
> > On 13/08/2022 20:40, bruce bowser wrote:
> > > Papers tie US to 1950s Japan coup plot
> > > China Daily - March 1, 2007
> > > -- https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2007-03/01/content_816384.htm
> > "putsch" - well it's as English as 'coup d'etat"
> If you are a German major, then you might want a bit more word history (Begriffsursprung) for something like that. Putsch comes from the southern German/Swiss word bütsch from the 15th century (15. Jahrhundert), and is an onomatopia (lautmalerisch) for Knall (or explosive sound). Also, 'kick' ('Stoß' or 'Umsturtz') from back in the 1940s. Its 'staatsgreep' in Dutch.
>

> -- https://www.wortbedeutung.info/Putsch/

Good thing the Germans changed it to Putsch. Büsch in a Swiss accent would sound too much like Bitch.

[Hibou]

Le 17/08/2022 à 08:37, Dingbat a écrit :
>
> Good thing the Germans changed it to Putsch. Büsch in a Swiss accent would sound too much like Bitch.

Maybe so. Certainly, the Chinese word 'nega' has caused confusion among
politically correct bampots, for example:

'USC Marshall Prof Replaced After Using A Chinese Term That Sounds
Similar To The N-Word' -
<https://finance.yahoo.com/news/usc-marshall-prof-suspended-using-205355703.html>

Someone should tell USC that Mandarin is not English.

[Peter Moylan]

If we're allowed to search through dictionaries to find words in one
language that sound offensive in another, we'll end up discovering that
everything is offensive.

[J. J. Lodder]

Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> * Wolfgang:
>
> > On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 at 18:52:23 +0200, Bruce Bowser wrote:
> >> On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 3:58:34 AM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>> bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 5:07:37 PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>>>> bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> [irrrelevancies]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Coup d'etat" IS an English word, (two actually)
> >>>>
> >>>> e had me voor de gek kunnen houden: 5,900,000 ersatz suf
> >>>> english et 8,640,000 ersatz suf Frans ?? meer suf Frans.
> >>> There you are: ersatz is an English word too,
> >>
> >> Ook een nederlands en een frans woord. Ja, daar zijn we.
> >
> > But Ersatz is German, not French. In French, the German word is used for
> > a surrogate of coffee, also called succédané.
>
> The usual referent these days being chicorée, I guess on both sides of
> the border.

Yes, but it has also acquired in some languages
the more general meaning of:
second rate, inferior substitute, not the real thing and so on,
with what was being ersatz for what long forgotten,

Jan

[Richard Heathfield]

That's the PC brigade's goal - so that only they dare speak.

In a vertical direction belonging to them.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Dingbat]

On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 6:08:57 PM UTC-7, Quinn C wrote:
> * Wolfgang:
> > On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 at 18:52:23 +0200, Bruce Bowser wrote:
> >> On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 3:58:34 AM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>> bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 5:07:37 PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>>>> bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> [irrrelevancies]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Coup d'etat" IS an English word, (two actually)
> >>>>
> >>>> e had me voor de gek kunnen houden: 5,900,000 ersatz suf
> >>>> english et 8,640,000 ersatz suf Frans ?? meer suf Frans.
> >>> There you are: ersatz is an English word too,
> >>
> >> Ook een nederlands en een frans woord. Ja, daar zijn we.
> >
> > But Ersatz is German, not French. In French, the German word is used for
> > a surrogate of coffee, also called succédané.
> The usual referent these days being chicorée, I guess on both sides of
> the border.
>

If ersatz always means an inferior substitute, how did it get into a battleship's name?
Ersatz-Bayern
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-new-german-battleship-ersatz-bayern/

[J. J. Lodder]

Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 6:08:57 PM UTC-7, Quinn C wrote:
> > * Wolfgang:
> > > On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 at 18:52:23 +0200, Bruce Bowser wrote:
> > >> On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 3:58:34 AM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > >>> bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>> On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 5:07:37 PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > >>>>> bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>> [irrrelevancies]
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> "Coup d'etat" IS an English word, (two actually)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> e had me voor de gek kunnen houden: 5,900,000 ersatz suf
> > >>>> english et 8,640,000 ersatz suf Frans ?? meer suf Frans.
> > >>> There you are: ersatz is an English word too,
> > >>
> > >> Ook een nederlands en een frans woord. Ja, daar zijn we.
> > >
> > > But Ersatz is German, not French. In French, the German word is used for
> > > a surrogate of coffee, also called succédané.
> > The usual referent these days being chicorée, I guess on both sides of
> > the border.
>
> If ersatz always means an inferior substitute, how did it get into a
> battleship's name?
> Ersatz-Bayern
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-new-german-battleship-ersatz-ba
yern/

That's just SciAm getting things wrong.
There never was a battleship named 'Ersatz-Bayern',

Jan

[Quinn C]

* J. J. Lodder:

Apparently, when replacements for battleships were ordered, those orders
were marked in the form "Ersatz Bayern" (replacement for the "Bayern").
The eventual names of these ships were decided later.

Anyway, in German, the word can still be neutral, depending on context.
I used to have my health insurance from an Ersatzkasse - historically,
an alternative insurance fund that one could choose instead of the one
that one got assigned to automatically.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 5:40:32 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 6:08:57 PM UTC-7, Quinn C wrote:
> > * Wolfgang:

> > > But Ersatz is German, not French. In French, the German word is used for
> > > a surrogate of coffee, also called succédané.
> > The usual referent these days being chicorée, I guess on both sides of
> > the border.
>
> If ersatz always means an inferior substitute,

It means that in English. Q says that it means chicory (some sort
of coffee substitute) in French and German. (Unless Q was referring
to both sides of some other border).

[J. J. Lodder]

According to wikip 'Bayern' was considered to be a new ship,
so not an ersatz for a pre-existing one.
It was never replaced, so no 'ersatz-Bayern.

> Anyway, in German, the word can still be neutral, depending on context.
> I used to have my health insurance from an Ersatzkasse - historically,
> an alternative insurance fund that one could choose instead of the one
> that one got assigned to automatically.

Sure, and still so in modern German, where 'ersatzteile'
just means replacement parts,

Jan

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-08-16 05:45, CDB wrote:
> On 8/15/2022 3:25 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
>> Hibou wrote:
>>> Dingbat a écrit :

>
>>>> What are these in plain English? a la carte

>> On the wagon.
>>>> bete noir
>> Black Betty
>>>> carte blanche
>> Blanche is drunk, we'll have to carry her home
>>>> caveat emptor
>
> Back to the cellar, this bottle is done for.

Excellent!

>>>> coup de grace
>> Mow the lawn
>>>> creme de la creme
>> It's cream, really
>>>> deja vu
>
> You again?
>
>>>> esprit de corps
>
> Lock up your daughters; the boys are back from the front.
>
>>>> hors d' oeuvre
>> Ladies of the night are coming here.
>
> To do the vacuuming.

Funny. If someone mentions 'hoover', I automatically think 'vacuum
cleaner', but not vice-versa.

>>>> femme fatale joie de vivre RSVP
>
>>>> Many of them are listed here:
>>>> https://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/fw-french-phrases.htm
>

>>> A few of them have simple English equivalents (buyer beware...),
>>> others are already English. The French rarely say 'double
>>> entendre', for instance. They tend to say 'double sens', as these
>>> sample translations show:
>
>>> (Translations of 'double entendre' from English into French) -
>>> <https://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/search?source=anglais&query=double+entendre>
>>>
>>>  So 'double entendre' is an English expression, not a French one.



--
One of the "A"s in "Aaron" is silent, but we will never know which one.

[lar3ryca]

I fear we are closer to that than we think.

--
Three programmers walk into a bar.
One of them holds up two fingers and says "Three beers".

[Peter Moylan]

On 16/08/22 21:45, CDB wrote:
> On 8/15/2022 3:25 PM, lar3ryca wrote:

>>> Dingbat a écrit :

>>>> hors d' oeuvre
>> Ladies of the night are coming here.
>
> To do the vacuuming.

Some people here pronounce "hors d'oeuvre" as "horse doovers".

Is the word "doover" known in North America?

[Bill Boei]

On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:04:19 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 16/08/22 21:45, CDB wrote:
> > On 8/15/2022 3:25 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
> >>> Dingbat a écrit :
> >>>> hors d' oeuvre
> >> Ladies of the night are coming here.
> >
> > To do the vacuuming.

> Some people here pronounce "hors d'oeuvre" as "horse doovers".
>
> Is the word "doover" known in North America?

Here in Canadian English, I've heard it only in "horse doovers".

But there is another complication. While looking to find out what was on the Web
on the topic of horse doovers, I discovered that some people who write "doovers"
actually mean do-overs but skip the hyphen.

bill

[occam]

On 15/08/2022 12:33, Hibou wrote:

> Le 14/08/2022 à 21:01, Dingbat a écrit :
>>
>> What are these in plain English?
>> a la carte

>> bete noir
>> carte blanche
>> caveat emptor
>> coup de grace
>> creme de la creme
>> deja vu
>> esprit de corps
>> hors d' oeuvre

>> femme fatale
>> joie de vivre
>> RSVP
>>
>> Many of them are listed here:
>> https://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/fw-french-phrases.htm
>
> A few of them have simple English equivalents (buyer beware...), others
> are already English. The French rarely say 'double entendre', for
> instance. They tend to say 'double sens', as these sample translations
> show:
>
> (Translations of 'double entendre' from English into French) -
> <https://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/search?source=anglais&query=double+entendre>
>
> So 'double entendre' is an English expression, not a French one.

<he he!> I was similarly surprised when I discovered that the French
word for 'resumé' is CV (curriculum vitae). That makes resumé an English
word, not a French one.

And when the Brits shout, rather pretentiously, 'encore' at the end of a
live classical performance, the French are content with 'bis'. Perhaps
George W. was right to think:
"The problem with the French is that they do not have a word for
'entrepreneur' "

[Janet]

In article <ebc44223-dd4f-45e3-bbb6-
3a5348...@googlegroups.com>, gram...@verizon.net
says...

I believe that ersatz coffee was made from acorns,
chicory (and maybe chestnuts? ). Even in the late 1950's
(in UK) my stepfather still ranted that coffee wasn't real
coffee, tea was any kind of dead leaves but tea, flour was
mostly chalk, sausages did not contain pork, canned
pineapple was swede, jam contained no fruit.

Janet

[CDB]

On 8/18/2022 2:04 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:

> CDB wrote:
>> lar3ryca wrote:
>>>> Dingbat a écrit :

>>>>> hors d' oeuvre
>>> Ladies of the night are coming here.

>> To do the vacuuming.

> Some people here pronounce "hors d'oeuvre" as "horse doovers".

> Is the word "doover" known in North America?

It is known to the Wiktionary, the Urban Dictionary, and a couple of
others at Onelook. The ones I looked at (above) all referenced Australia.

Is it time to do "thingummy" again?

--
Begin, and cease, and then again begin

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

I recall being told that once upon a time some fake (strawberry I think)
jam had fake pips put in it.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Ken Blake]

Same for me. That's because I'm familiar with the BrE use of the word
"hoover," but it it's not the word I would use myself.

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 16:04:14 +1000, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 16/08/22 21:45, CDB wrote:
>> On 8/15/2022 3:25 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
>>>> Dingbat a écrit :
>
>>>>> hors d' oeuvre
>>> Ladies of the night are coming here.
>>
>> To do the vacuuming.
>

>Some people here pronounce "hors d'oeuvre" as "vershorse doo".

>
>Is the word "doover" known in North America?

Not to me. I just googled it and found several definitions. Which one
is used in AuE? My guess is "excrement," since you wrote "horse
doovers."

[Ken Blake]

I believe that the correct spelling is usually "résumé," but whether
it has one accented e or two, I have a hard time thinking that a word
with accents is English.

[Mack A. Damia]

If we order a ham-on-roll here is Baja from Subway, you have to
specify, "pork-ham" or "turkey-ham". Some shops offer
"turkey-pastrami".

[bruce bowser]

On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 4:01:38 PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> > On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 11:40:14 AM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
> > > Papers tie US to 1950s Japan coup plot
> > > China Daily - March 1, 2007
> > > -- https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2007-03/01/content_816384.htm
> >

> > Don't know a plain English equivalent;
> > "bloodless coup" usually leaves out d'etat
> >
> > Brinley Newton-John, Olivia's father, on retiring as Deputy Vice
> > Chancellor, U Newcastle, Australia, gave a speech:
> > <<I had developed a 'habit of acting suaviter in modo
> > to supplement the Vice-Chancellor's fortiter in re.>>
> > https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/newtonjohn-brinley-brin-18243
> >
> > How do you say that in plain English?

> >
> > What are these in plain English?
> > a la carte
> > bete noir
> > carte blanche
> > caveat emptor
> > coup de grace
> > creme de la creme
> > deja vu
> > esprit de corps
> > hors d' oeuvre
> > femme fatale
> > joie de vivre
> > RSVP
> >
> > Many of them are listed here:
> > https://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/fw-french-phrases.htm

> I just saw that: maitre d' is (American?) English to.
> Just the maitre d' nothing following d' ,

Danke schön für das:

Wiki -
Maître d'hôtel (aux English:)
Food writer Leah Zeldes writes that the role of maître d'hôtel [*Butler] originated as a kind of combined "host [*gastheer -m NL], headwaiter [*hoofdkelner - NL] and dining-room manager [*eetkamer manager]"

*Nederlandse vertaling

[lar3ryca]

I don't know if that's true or not, but it would not surprise me.
I do know they don't have a word for 'grape', or one for 'raisin'.

--
I before E... except when you run a feisty heist on a weird foreign
neighbour.

[Sam Plusnet]

On 18-Aug-22 8:07, occam wrote:

> <he he!> I was similarly surprised when I discovered that the French
> word for 'resumé' is CV (curriculum vitae). That makes resumé an English
> word, not a French one.

Be careful you don't get caught in a linguistic cul-de-sac.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Transition Zone]

Do you learn better or worse, there?

[Peter Moylan]

The meaning of "doover" is "thingamajig" or "whatsitsname" or a few
other possibilities. The people who say "horse doovers" in reference to
food are probably thinking of testicles.

[Quinn C]

* J. J. Lodder:

Yes, but in cases like "Ersatzkaffee", it does carry the association of
something inferior. "Für das Echte gibt es keinen Ersatz", there's no
ersatz/replacement for the Real Thing, a cigarettes slogan from my
youth.

The tin box in which my grandparents kept their important papers was
inscribed "Kaffeesurrogatextrakt", possibly avoiding "Ersatz".

--
What roles the society places on us are ill-fitting masks that we try
to fit awkwardly on our faces.
-- Claude Cahun, Bedroom carnival (1926)

[Dingbat]

On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 10:21:01 AM UTC-7, Quinn C wrote:
> * J. J. Lodder:
> > Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> >
> >> Anyway, in German, the word can still be neutral, depending on context.
> >> I used to have my health insurance from an Ersatzkasse - historically,
> >> an alternative insurance fund that one could choose instead of the one
> >> that one got assigned to automatically.
> >
> > Sure, and still so in modern German, where 'ersatzteile'
> > just means replacement parts,
>
> Yes, but in cases like "Ersatzkaffee", it does carry the association of
> something inferior. "Für das Echte gibt es keinen Ersatz", there's no
> ersatz/replacement for the Real Thing, a cigarettes slogan from my
> youth.
>

India had a coffee brand Ricory, a blend of coffee and chicory.
Afficianados considered the blend superior to pure coffee.
But they didn't use the term ersatz, so the issue of whether
ersatz can mean superior did not arise.

[J. J. Lodder]

Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> * J. J. Lodder:
>
> > Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> >
> >> * J. J. Lodder:
> >>
> >>> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 6:08:57 PM UTC-7, Quinn C wrote:
> >>>>> * Wolfgang:
> >>>>> > On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 at 18:52:23 +0200, Bruce Bowser wrote:
> >>>>> >> On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 3:58:34 AM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>>>> >>> bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >>>>> >>>> On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 5:07:37 PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder:

Possibly, but in cases like this
it is probably no more than pushing brand fidelity,
arguing that the 'real thing' brand is superior to other brands.

> The tin box in which my grandparents kept their important papers was
> inscribed "Kaffeesurrogatextrakt", possibly avoiding "Ersatz".

Collectibles nowadays, and perhaps worth some real money,

Jan

[Ken Blake]

On 20 Aug 2022 11:18:02 GMT, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
wrote:


> "Do they drink coffee in China as we do?" - "No, they
> drink an ersatz coffee they call 'tea'." - To the
> Westerner who is embedded in the coffee culture, all
> other drinks can only be cheap attempts at imitation.


Not to this westerner. As far as I'm concerned, tea is not erstaz
coffee, even though I greatly prefer coffee to tea. Tea is nothing
like coffee; the only thing they have in common, is that both are
served hot unless you order them iced.

They are two completely different drinks. I can't imagine ordering
coffee someplace and being brought tea.

[Peter Moylan]

Like ordering a coke and getting Pepsi.

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 11:09:06 AM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 11:16:43 AM UTC-6, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> [Waiter!]
> > It's possible that I've never addressed anyone by the name of their job
> > except "Professor" and "Officer" (for a police officer). I would address
> > an elected official by job title, but I've never spoken to an elected
> > official.
> ...
>
> Not true. I can remember speaking to two mayors of this town and a
> city councillor. The occasions were informal, and I didn't use any kind
> of honorific. If I ran into my Congressional representative at a store or
> something, and recognized her, I'd probably call her "Congresswoman"
> or "Representative Fernandez" or something, though.
>
When I covered city council or regional government meetings as a news reporter,
I'd address them as "Councillor" or "Mayor" or whatever their title was. Even if
I knew them personally, I'd use the normal honorifics when we were both acting
in the capacity of our jobs. The purpose of that was to avoid the appearance of
cronyism. That had to be carried over into the content of my published stories,
of course.

bill

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-08-20 08:01, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 20 Aug 2022 11:18:02 GMT, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
> wrote:
>
>
>> "Do they drink coffee in China as we do?" - "No, they
>> drink an ersatz coffee they call 'tea'." - To the
>> Westerner who is embedded in the coffee culture, all
>> other drinks can only be cheap attempts at imitation.
>
>
> Not to this westerner. As far as I'm concerned, tea is not erstaz
> coffee, even though I greatly prefer coffee to tea. Tea is nothing
> like coffee; the only thing they have in common, is that both are
> served hot unless you order them iced.

They also have caffeine in common, unless you count some things that are
not tea, but steeped leaves of other plants.

> They are two completely different drinks. I can't imagine ordering
> coffee someplace and being brought tea.

--
A day without fusion is like a day without sunlight.

[Ken Blake]

On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 22:23:53 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:

>On 2022-08-20 08:01, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 20 Aug 2022 11:18:02 GMT, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> "Do they drink coffee in China as we do?" - "No, they
>>> drink an ersatz coffee they call 'tea'." - To the
>>> Westerner who is embedded in the coffee culture, all
>>> other drinks can only be cheap attempts at imitation.
>>
>>
>> Not to this westerner. As far as I'm concerned, tea is not erstaz
>> coffee, even though I greatly prefer coffee to tea. Tea is nothing
>> like coffee; the only thing they have in common, is that both are
>> served hot unless you order them iced.
>
>They also have caffeine in common,

Yes. And their color is similar. And they are both liquids. And they
are both usually drunk from cups. And they are both often drunk with
added sugar. Etc.

Yes, I oversimplified.

>unless you count some things that are
>not tea, but steeped leaves of other plants.

I don't call those things tea.

[bruce bowser]

On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 2:09:06 PM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 11:16:43 AM UTC-6, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> [Waiter!]
> > It's possible that I've never addressed anyone by the name of their job
> > except "Professor" and "Officer" (for a police officer). I would address
> > an elected official by job title, but I've never spoken to an elected
> > official.
> ...
>
> Not true. I can remember speaking to two mayors of this town and a
> city councillor. The occasions were informal, and I didn't use any kind
> of honorific. If I ran into my Congressional representative at a store or
> something, and recognized her, I'd probably call her "Congresswoman"
> or "Representative Fernandez" or something, though.

Adding an honorific like Ms would be respected, yes.

[Quinn C]

* Peter Moylan:

> On 16/08/22 21:56, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> [quoting from an article on Brin Newton-John]
>
>>> "Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people should be aware that
>>> this website contains names, images, and voices of deceased
>>> persons.
>
> A warning like that often occurs on the TV news. For some indigenous
> people, mentioning a deceased person is very bad manners.

I think it's pretty widespread across various cultures that you
shouldn't mention people's living name after death, but not mentioning
them at all seems extreme.

--
- It's the title search for the Rachel property.
Guess who owns it?
- Tell me it's not that bastard Donald Trump.
-- Gilmore Girls, S02E08 (2001)

[Quinn C]

* lar3ryca:

A grappa should help me deal with this shocking discovery.
--
Quinn: I'm not very good at talking to boys.
Zoey: It's easy! It's just like talking to girls, but you got to
use smaller words.
-- Zoey 101, Quinn's Date

[Quinn C]

* Bill Boei:

Not very cooper-
ative of them.

--
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that
good men do nothing.
-- Edmund Burke

[Snidely]

Quinn C speculated:

> * Peter Moylan:
>
>> On 16/08/22 21:56, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>> [quoting from an article on Brin Newton-John]
>>
>>>> "Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people should be aware that
>>>> this website contains names, images, and voices of deceased
>>>> persons.
>>
>> A warning like that often occurs on the TV news. For some indigenous
>> people, mentioning a deceased person is very bad manners.
>
> I think it's pretty widespread across various cultures that you
> shouldn't mention people's living name after death, but not mentioning
> them at all seems extreme.

"living name" suggests that a different name is in play after death.

/dps

--
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
Viktor Frankl

[Snidely]

Just this Sunday, Ken Blake explained that ...

Most vendors do, though. Sassaffras tea ... I was stuck on that in my
teens. When I switched to black tea, the tea bag was kind of waved in
the direction of the teapot.

I actually was into black tea as iced tea before I was drinking much of
it hot.

>>> They are two completely different drinks. I can't imagine ordering
>>> coffee someplace and being brought tea.

No, but can you imagine this conversation:

"... and I'd like a cup of coffee with my meal."
"I'm sorry, we don't have coffee. Would you like hot or cold tea
instead?"

/dps

--
As a colleague once told me about an incoming manager,
"He does very well in a suck-up, kick-down culture."
Bill in Vancouver

[Quinn C]

* Snidely:

> Quinn C speculated:
>> * Peter Moylan:
>>
>>> On 16/08/22 21:56, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>
>>> [quoting from an article on Brin Newton-John]
>>>
>>>>> "Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people should be aware that
>>>>> this website contains names, images, and voices of deceased
>>>>> persons.
>>>
>>> A warning like that often occurs on the TV news. For some indigenous
>>> people, mentioning a deceased person is very bad manners.
>>
>> I think it's pretty widespread across various cultures that you
>> shouldn't mention people's living name after death, but not mentioning
>> them at all seems extreme.
>
> "living name" suggests that a different name is in play after death.

Yes, that's the system I'm more familiar with: rather than not referring
to the deceased, one refers to them by a new name or with
circumlocutions.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Ken Blake]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 21:04:09 -0700, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Just this Sunday, Ken Blake explained that ...
>> On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 22:23:53 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-08-20 08:01, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On 20 Aug 2022 11:18:02 GMT, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "Do they drink coffee in China as we do?" - "No, they
>>>>> drink an ersatz coffee they call 'tea'." - To the
>>>>> Westerner who is embedded in the coffee culture, all
>>>>> other drinks can only be cheap attempts at imitation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not to this westerner. As far as I'm concerned, tea is not erstaz
>>>> coffee, even though I greatly prefer coffee to tea. Tea is nothing
>>>> like coffee; the only thing they have in common, is that both are
>>>> served hot unless you order them iced.
>>>
>>> They also have caffeine in common,
>>
>> Yes. And their color is similar. And they are both liquids. And they
>> are both usually drunk from cups. And they are both often drunk with
>> added sugar. Etc.
>>
>> Yes, I oversimplified.
>>
>>
>>> unless you count some things that are
>>> not tea, but steeped leaves of other plants.
>>
>> I don't call those things tea.
>
>Most vendors do, though.

Yes, I know. It's very common.

>Sassaffras tea ... I was stuck on that in my
>teens. When I switched to black tea, the tea bag was kind of waved in
>the direction of the teapot.
>
>I actually was into black tea as iced tea before I was drinking much of
>it hot.

I almost never drink hot tea, but I drink iced tea almost all day
long. I have a glass of it sitting next to my left hand now, as I'm
typing.

Yes, I know I might accidentally spill it on my keyboard. I've twice
replaced keyboards for that reason.

>>>> They are two completely different drinks. I can't imagine ordering
>>>> coffee someplace and being brought tea.
>
>No, but can you imagine this conversation:
>
>"... and I'd like a cup of coffee with my meal."
>"I'm sorry, we don't have coffee. Would you like hot or cold tea
>instead?"

Yes, that's certainly possible.