[prodrome] Within five days of the prodrome starting

[Ken Blake]

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/05/health/monkeypox-questions-update/index.html
"Within five days of the prodrome starting, patients develop a rash that
can look like pimples or blisters," said Dr. Jason Zucker, an infectious
diseases specialist at NewYork-Presbyterian/Columbia University Irving
Medical Center."


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prodrome
Etymology for prodrome
French, literally, precursor, from Greek prodromos, from pro- before +
dromos act of running, racecourse - more at PRO-, DROMEDARY

[Paul Wolff]

On Sun, 7 Aug 2022, at 01:41:21, Ken Blake posted:

>https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/05/health/monkeypox-questions-update/index.html
>"Within five days of the prodrome starting, patients develop a rash that
>can look like pimples or blisters," said Dr. Jason Zucker, an infectious
>diseases specialist

Re When to use hyphens in English? is this doctor a diseases specialist
who is infectious, or an infectious-diseases specialist?
--
Paul

[R.Wieser]

Paul Wolff

>>https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/05/health/monkeypox-questions-update/index.html
>>"Within five days of the prodrome starting, patients develop a rash that
>>can look like pimples or blisters," said Dr. Jason Zucker, an infectious
>>diseases specialist
>
> Re When to use hyphens in English? is this doctor a diseases specialist
> who is infectious, or an infectious-diseases specialist?

While a bright red flower can be very different from a bright-red flower, I
don't ascertain much of a difference (if any) between an infectious
diseases specialist and an an infectious-diseases specialist. Do you?

If not, the hyphen is virtually meaningless, if not grossly redundant IMHO
(as were those overly-redundant "if nots" where I purposefully added the
hyphen after the "ly" to illustrate that's yet another oft-quoted
hyphenation rule perhaps arbitrarily broken).
--
Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[Mark Brader]

Rudy Wieser:
> ...I don't ascertain much of a difference (if any) between an

> infectious diseases specialist and an an infectious-diseases specialist.

In 2006 after visiting Yosemite National Park, I posted a note here
about the existence of:

Old Big Oak Flat Road Trail

in which the words are grouped: "((Old (((Big Oak) Flat) Road)) Trail)".
As I said, we don't often see things named in English with six monosyllables.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Perhaps their software was written by
m...@vex.net a Byzan-tine-ager" -- Peter Neumann

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Sunday, August 7, 2022 at 5:56:01 PM UTC-6, R.Wieser wrote:
> Paul Wolff
> >>https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/05/health/monkeypox-questions-update/index.html
> >>"Within five days of the prodrome starting, patients develop a rash that
> >>can look like pimples or blisters," said Dr. Jason Zucker, an infectious
> >>diseases specialist
> >
> > Re When to use hyphens in English? is this doctor a diseases specialist
> > who is infectious, or an infectious-diseases specialist?

> While a bright red flower can be very different from a bright-red flower, I
> don't ascertain much of a difference (if any) between an infectious
> diseases specialist and an an infectious-diseases specialist. Do you?

...

An infectious diseases specialist would be one who causes infections.
"You can't come over. I'm still infectious."

The somewhat odd use of "diseases" instead of "disease" does help
make that interpretation less likely.

What's the difference between a bright red flower and a bright-red
flower?

--
Jerry Friedman

[R.Wieser]

Jerry Friedman

> What's the difference between a bright red flower and a bright-red
> flower?

As with all sentences, it's up to what the author intended the meaning to
be and to what the reader interpreted the meaning as... but... if you ask
me, the difference is stellar in that one is bright and red, while the
other is a bright red color.

I guess a light bulb might show that concept better...
bright-red bulb vs a bright red bulb

The former is a bright red color while the latter is just red but it's a
bright bulb.

The whole point of the hyphen is to combine adjectives.
The whole point of NOT using the hyphen is to disassociate them.

At least that's my understanding from English in high school.

In the case of "infectious diseases specialist" vs an "infectious-diseases
specialist", a closer look would say that the former is infected and a
diseases specialist, while the latter is a specialist in infectious
diseases (as someone already observed).
--
Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[occam]

Aside: I am currently holidaying in a village on the Troodos mountains
in Cyprus. The nearby village is called 'Prodromos'. Its alternate
meaning of prodromos is 'forerunner'. Locally it is understood to refer
to John The Baptist, who showed the way to Christ.

[Paul Wolff]

On Sun, 7 Aug 2022, at 20:03:14, Jerry Friedman posted:

Assuming the flower itself isn't luminescent, and since both bright and
red are qualifiers of light reflected from the flower, I can't see (!)
the difference between a flower that is bright-red and a flower that is
both bright and red. Or is bright-red a distinct hue that a bright and
red flower may lack?
--
Paul

[Peter T. Daniels]

what would a "diseases specialist" be?

[Ken Blake]

Certainly the latter is better, but In my opinion, better still would
be

"... Dr. Jason Zucker, a specialist in infectious diseases."

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

I think they're called "doctors".
--
Somebody, your father or mine, should have told us that not many
people have ever died of love. But multitudes have perished, and
are perishing every hour [...] for the lack of it.
-- James Baldwin, Giovanni's Room

[R.Wieser]

Paul Wolff

> Assuming the flower itself isn't luminescent

Maybe a flower is a bad noun to illustrated the concept.
What if I replaced "flower" with "light bulb" instead?

Is a bright red bulb the same as a bright-red bulb?
--
Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[Jerry Friedman]

On Sunday, August 7, 2022 at 11:11:51 PM UTC-6, R.Wieser wrote:
> Jerry Friedman
> > What's the difference between a bright red flower and a bright-red
> > flower?
> As with all sentences, it's up to what the author intended the meaning to
> be and to what the reader interpreted the meaning as... but... if you ask
> me, the difference is stellar in that one is bright and red, while the
> other is a bright red color.
>
> I guess a light bulb might show that concept better...
> bright-red bulb vs a bright red bulb
>
> The former is a bright red color while the latter is just red but it's a
> bright bulb.

...

I agree that that's better.

--
Jerry Friedman

[John Robertson]

On 2022/08/08 8:27 am, Ken Blake wrote:


> Certainly the latter is better, but In my opinion, better still would
> be
>
> "... Dr. Jason Zucker, a specialist in infectious diseases."

Hyphens save words!
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd.
MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[grinch]

On 08/08/2022 19:46, R.Wieser wrote:

> Is a bright red bulb the same as a bright-red bulb?

Maybe "Yes" (if it's a flower bulb); but maybe "No" (if it's a light bulb).

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, August 8, 2022 at 10:27:44 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Sunday, August 7, 2022 at 5:47:25 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
> >> On Sun, 7 Aug 2022, at 01:41:21, Ken Blake posted:

> >>>https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/05/health/monkeypox-questions-update/index.html
> >>>"Within five days of the prodrome starting, patients develop a rash that
> >>>can look like pimples or blisters," said Dr. Jason Zucker, an infectious
> >>>diseases specialist
> >> Re When to use hyphens in English? is this doctor a diseases specialist
> >> who is infectious, or an infectious-diseases specialist?
> > what would a "diseases specialist" be?
>
> I think they're called "doctors".

I'd say some of them are "disease specialists," but that's a Pondian
thing, but it shows why the quibble over the hyphen is silly.

[Snidely]

Just this Monday, Paul Wolff puzzled about:

"Bright-red" is often used to distinguish a hue from one that is "red",
"dark-red", or even "brick-red". IIRC, HTML color names make that
distinction (not including "brick-red", that's from my crayon set).

/dps

--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in
2015.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Mon, 8 Aug 2022 08:29:25 +0300
occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:

> On 07/08/2022 10:41, Ken Blake wrote:
> > https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/05/health/monkeypox-questions-update/index.html
> > "Within five days of the prodrome starting, patients develop a rash that
> > can look like pimples or blisters," said Dr. Jason Zucker, an infectious
> > diseases specialist at NewYork-Presbyterian/Columbia University Irving
> > Medical Center."
> >

It's not just a bad word substitution for 'programme'?

> >
> > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prodrome
> > Etymology for prodrome
> > French, literally, precursor, from Greek prodromos, from pro- before +
> > dromos act of running, racecourse - more at PRO-, DROMEDARY
>
> Aside: I am currently holidaying in a village on the Troodos mountains
> in Cyprus. The nearby village is called 'Prodromos'. Its alternate
> meaning of prodromos is 'forerunner'. Locally it is understood to refer
> to John The Baptist, who showed the way to Christ.

Have a Keo for me.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Den 08-08-2022 kl. 13:01 skrev Paul Wolff:
> On Sun, 7 Aug 2022, at 20:03:14, Jerry Friedman posted:

>> [ infectious diseases specialist ]

>> What's the difference between a bright red flower and a bright-red
>> flower?
>>
> Assuming the flower itself isn't luminescent, and since both bright and
> red are qualifiers of light reflected from the flower, I can't see (!)
> the difference between a flower that is bright-red and a flower that is
> both bright and red. Or is bright-red a distinct hue that a bright and
> red flower may lack?

I agree; in this case, there seems to be no practical difference.

/Anders, Denmark

[lar3ryca]

If a light bulb, I still don't see a difference.

--
Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of
Congress.
But I repeat myself.
– Mark Twain

[lar3ryca]

To me, it depends on usage.
For example, I see no difference if I speak of a 'brick-red crayon' or a
'brick red crayon'.

However, if I am speaking of the colour of a house, 'a brick-red wall'
is obviously a wall that has a brick-red colour. If I say 'a brick red
wall', it would be ambiguous, and the ambiguity can be resolved (at
least to most English as a first language speakers), by calling it a
'red brick wall'.


--
I ate alphabet soup. Now I have strong vowel movement.

[Quinn C]

I understand someone being a "smallpox specialist", or a "specialist for
the [aforementioned] disease", but just "disease specialist"? In what
situation would it be useful to convey that someone is specialized in
some disease, but keep the disease unspecified?

"She's a girlfriend."

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Paul Wolff]

On Mon, 8 Aug 2022, at 19:46:41, R.Wieser posted:

>Paul Wolff
>
>> Assuming the flower itself isn't luminescent
>
>Maybe a flower is a bad noun to illustrated the concept.
>What if I replaced "flower" with "light bulb" instead?
>
>Is a bright red bulb the same as a bright-red bulb?

I bought a red onion this afternoon. Unfortunately for this thread, it
wasn't bright red, more like the colour of red cabbage.

For light-bulbs, there is a voltage. I mean a potential difference, but
not guaranteed. You can only decide sameness or difference by
observation.
--
Paul

[Paul Wolff]

On Mon, 8 Aug 2022, at 06:12:25, Peter T. Daniels posted:

Someone who specialises in diseases. Ask me another.
--
Paul

[Jerry Friedman]

On Monday, August 8, 2022 at 2:30:31 PM UTC-6, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2022-08-08 11:52, grinch wrote:
> > On 08/08/2022 19:46, R.Wieser wrote:
> >
> >> Is a bright red bulb the same as a bright-red bulb?
> >
> > Maybe "Yes" (if it's a flower bulb); but maybe "No" (if it's a light bulb).
> If a light bulb, I still don't see a difference.

A bright-red bulb is or produces a bright red color, not pink. A bright red
bulb produces bright light, not dim light, that is red.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 8 Aug 2022 17:12:10 -0400, Quinn C
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Peter T. Daniels:
>
>> On Monday, August 8, 2022 at 10:27:44 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>>> On Sunday, August 7, 2022 at 5:47:25 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 7 Aug 2022, at 01:41:21, Ken Blake posted:
>>
>>>>>>https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/05/health/monkeypox-questions-update/index.html
>>>>>>"Within five days of the prodrome starting, patients develop a rash that
>>>>>>can look like pimples or blisters," said Dr. Jason Zucker, an infectious
>>>>>>diseases specialist
>>>>> Re When to use hyphens in English? is this doctor a diseases specialist
>>>>> who is infectious, or an infectious-diseases specialist?
>>>> what would a "diseases specialist" be?
>>>
>>> I think they're called "doctors".
>>
>> I'd say some of them are "disease specialists," but that's a Pondian
>> thing, but it shows why the quibble over the hyphen is silly.
>
>I understand someone being a "smallpox specialist", or a "specialist for
>the [aforementioned] disease", but just "disease specialist"? In what
>situation would it be useful to convey that someone is specialized in
>some disease, but keep the disease unspecified?
>

Rather than a particular disease, like smallpox, the description is
usually by type: pulmonary disease specialist or infectious disease
specialist.

The latter are quite in demand at present:

https://www.cleveland19.com/2022/08/07/cleveland-infectious-disease-specialist-monkeypox-outbreak-is-bigger-than-expected/

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[Tony Cooper]

I have seen bright red lights that do not produce bright light in
photographer's darkrooms.

For the reason that red lightbulbs were used in darkrooms we can turn
to Quora:

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-a-red-light-used-as-a-safe-light-in-dark-room-for-photographic-film-and-print-development

I didn't read all of the responses, but I read several and noticed
that no one seems to be a Brit as "color" is absent a "u" in the
posts.

Must be misinformation.

[CDB]

On 8/8/2022 6:04 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels:

>>> Quinn C wrote:
>>>> * Peter T. Daniels:

>>>>> Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>>>> Ken Blake posted:

>>>>>>> https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/05/health/monkeypox-questions-update/index.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
"Within five days of the prodrome starting, patients develop a rash that
>>>>>>> can look like pimples or blisters," said Dr. Jason
>>>>>>> Zucker, an infectious diseases specialist
>>>>>> Re When to use hyphens in English? is this doctor a
>>>>>> diseases specialist who is infectious, or an
>>>>>> infectious-diseases specialist?
>>>>> what would a "diseases specialist" be?

>>>> I think they're called "doctors".

>>> I'd say some of them are "disease specialists," but that's a
>>> Pondian thing, but it shows why the quibble over the hyphen is
>>> silly.

>> I understand someone being a "smallpox specialist", or a
>> "specialist for the [aforementioned] disease", but just "disease
>> specialist"? In what situation would it be useful to convey that
>> someone is specialized in some disease, but keep the disease
>> unspecified?

> Rather than a particular disease, like smallpox, the description is
> usually by type: pulmonary disease specialist or infectious disease
> specialist.

> The latter are quite in demand at present:

> https://www.cleveland19.com/2022/08/07/cleveland-infectious-disease-specialist-monkeypox-outbreak-is-bigger-than-expected/

The
>
doctor appears not to be an English-usage specialist (NTTAWWT). Ey
uses "pox" instead of "pock" as a singular form meaning "M-pox lesion".

If ey caught the pox from a patient (or friend, for that matter) I might
call em an infectious infectious-disease specialist.

--
Because it takes a lot of practice.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, August 8, 2022 at 5:12:19 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Monday, August 8, 2022 at 10:27:44 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> >> * Peter T. Daniels:
> >>> On Sunday, August 7, 2022 at 5:47:25 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, 7 Aug 2022, at 01:41:21, Ken Blake posted:

> >>>>>https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/05/health/monkeypox-questions-update/index.html
> >>>>>"Within five days of the prodrome starting, patients develop a rash that
> >>>>>can look like pimples or blisters," said Dr. Jason Zucker, an infectious
> >>>>>diseases specialist
> >>>> Re When to use hyphens in English? is this doctor a diseases specialist
> >>>> who is infectious, or an infectious-diseases specialist?
> >>> what would a "diseases specialist" be?
> >> I think they're called "doctors".
> > I'd say some of them are "disease specialists," but that's a Pondian
> > thing, but it shows why the quibble over the hyphen is silly.
>
> I understand someone being a "smallpox specialist", or a "specialist for
> the [aforementioned] disease", but just "disease specialist"? In what
> situation would it be useful to convey that someone is specialized in
> some disease, but keep the disease unspecified?

In explaining the difference between, say, an internist (specialist
in "internal medicine," which is the department my G.P. is listed
in) and an orthopedist who happens to be a whiz at setting broken
limb bones.

> "She's a girlfriend."

Lucky her!

[Peter T. Daniels]

As I said, that's just the Pondian difference in when to use
singulars vs. plurals.

See reply to Q for why one might say that a particular physician
specializes in disease(s) rather than in something else.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Monday, August 8, 2022 at 4:18:26 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Aug 2022 14:58:58 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, August 8, 2022 at 2:30:31 PM UTC-6, lar3ryca wrote:
> >> On 2022-08-08 11:52, grinch wrote:
> >> > On 08/08/2022 19:46, R.Wieser wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Is a bright red bulb the same as a bright-red bulb?
> >> >
> >> > Maybe "Yes" (if it's a flower bulb); but maybe "No" (if it's a light bulb).
> >> If a light bulb, I still don't see a difference.
> >
> >A bright-red bulb is or produces a bright red color, not pink. A bright red
> >bulb produces bright light, not dim light, that is red.

> I have seen bright red lights that do not produce bright light in
> photographer's darkrooms.

...

Exactly, so "bright-red lights" might be clearer.

--
Jerry Friedman

[R.Wieser]

lar3ryca

> I still don't see a difference.

The difference is subtle, but the hyphen is a huge neon-bright cluebyfour.
--
Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[R.Wieser]

lar3ryca

> To me, it depends on usage.

Of course it does. Specifically, the author has an intended interpretation.

For some reason the ad hoc example of "bright & red" versus "bright-red"
didn't appear to be differentiated for you, but what about these?

chocolate-covered donuts
well-known doctor
much-needed vacation
nice-looking girl
https://www.really-learn-english.com/hyphen.html

> For example, I see no difference if I speak of a 'brick-red crayon' or a
> 'brick red crayon'.

If you were the author, and if you didn't see the need to ensure the reader
easily ascertained the difference between a crayon that is of a "brick-red
color" versus a crayon that is both made out of "brick and which is "red",
then you wouldn't use the hyphen.

It's all up to you, the author how hard you want to make your reader think.

> However, if I am speaking of the colour of a house, 'a brick-red wall'
> is obviously a wall that has a brick-red colour. If I say 'a brick red
> wall', it would be ambiguous, and the ambiguity can be resolved (at
> least to most English as a first language speakers), by calling it a
> 'red brick wall'.

Ah. So you do see the difference after all.

Again, it's up to you, the author, to decide how many times you want your
reader to re-read the sentence in order to glean your intentions.
--
Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[R.Wieser]

Anders D. Nygaard

> I agree; in this case, there seems to be no practical difference.

It's all up to you, the author how hard you want to make your reader think.

If you think your reader won't notice any difference, then don't use it.
If you think your reader is a bit more sophisticated, then use it.

It's completely up to you how many times you want them to re-read the
sentence to correctly ascertain what your intention was when you wrote it.
--
Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[Peter T. Daniels]

What if you think your readers suppose that crayons might be
made from brick?

[Sam Plusnet]

We have both light red and dark red roses[1] in the garden.
The difference cannot be measured in lumens.

[1] Hyphenate to taste.

--
Sam Plusnet

[R.Wieser]

Peter T. Daniels

> What if you think your readers suppose that crayons might be
> made from brick?

What if you said something intelligent for once?

Everyone else is carrying on an intelligent conversation.

Except you. <plonk!>
--
Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Den 09-08-2022 kl. 22:27 skrev R.Wieser:
> Anders D. Nygaard
[context restored]

>> Den 08-08-2022 kl. 13:01 skrev Paul Wolff:
>>> On Sun, 7 Aug 2022, at 20:03:14, Jerry Friedman posted:
>>>> [ infectious diseases specialist ]
>>>> What's the difference between a bright red flower and a bright-red
>>>> flower?
>>>>
>>> Assuming the flower itself isn't luminescent, and since both bright
>>> and red are qualifiers of light reflected from the flower, I can't see
>>> (!) the difference between a flower that is bright-red and a flower
>>> that is both bright and red. Or is bright-red a distinct hue that a
>>> bright and red flower may lack?

>> I agree; in this case, there seems to be no practical difference.
>
> It's all up to you, the author how hard you want to make your reader think.

For some reason, you seem to think that there is some difference
*in this specific case* which I (and others) cannot see.

> If you think your reader won't notice any difference, then don't use it.
> If you think your reader is a bit more sophisticated, then use it.
>
> It's completely up to you how many times you want them to re-read the
> sentence to correctly ascertain what your intention was when you wrote it.

What if there is no discernible difference?

What do you think is the difference between a bright red flower
and a bright-red flower?

/Anders, Denmark

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-08-09 14:24, R.Wieser wrote:
> lar3ryca
>
>> To me, it depends on usage.
>
> Of course it does. Specifically, the author has an intended interpretation.
>
> For some reason the ad hoc example of "bright & red" versus "bright-red"
> didn't appear to be differentiated for you, but what about these?
>
> chocolate-covered donuts
> well-known doctor
> much-needed vacation
> nice-looking girl
> https://www.really-learn-english.com/hyphen.html

I don't see a need for a hyphen in any of these.

>> For example, I see no difference if I speak of a 'brick-red crayon' or a
>> 'brick red crayon'.
>
> If you were the author, and if you didn't see the need to ensure the reader
> easily ascertained the difference between a crayon that is of a "brick-red
> color" versus a crayon that is both made out of "brick and which is "red",
> then you wouldn't use the hyphen.
>
> It's all up to you, the author how hard you want to make your reader think.
>
>> However, if I am speaking of the colour of a house, 'a brick-red wall'
>> is obviously a wall that has a brick-red colour. If I say 'a brick red
>> wall', it would be ambiguous, and the ambiguity can be resolved (at
>> least to most English as a first language speakers), by calling it a
>> 'red brick wall'.
>
> Ah. So you do see the difference after all.

Of course, in that particular case. I use a hyphen when there is
ambiguity in the meaning.

> Again, it's up to you, the author, to decide how many times you want your
> reader to re-read the sentence in order to glean your intentions.

In the case of a red brick house, I prefer to have the reader read it
only once. Do you know anyone who would find it ambiguous?

Do you know who would find one of 'bright red flower' and 'bright-red
flower'? In fact one of the 'rules' mentioned in the link you posted is
"Do not use a hyphen if the two words have separate meanings and do not
stand as a single adjective".

If the flower can be bright OR red, the two adjectives have separate
meanings.

--
If a man doesn’t believe as we do, we say he is a crank, and that
settles it. I mean it does nowadays, because now we can’t burn him.
– Mark Twain

[Snidely]

lar3ryca pounded on thar keyboard to tell us

But which red? fire-engine red? cherry red? dregs-of-the-burgundy
red?

/dps

--
"I'm glad unicorns don't ever need upgrades."
"We are as up as it is possible to get graded!"
_Phoebe and Her Unicorn_, 2016.05.15

[Snidely]

After serious thinking R.Wieser wrote :

> Peter T. Daniels
>
>> What if you think your readers suppose that crayons might be made from
>> brick?
>
> What if you said something intelligent for once?
>
> Everyone else is carrying on an intelligent conversation.
>
> Except you. <plonk!>

I disagree. Clumsy phrasing, but a valid point. He was reinforcing
your argument, as I see it.


/dps

--
Yes, I have had a cucumber soda. Why do you ask?

[Snidely]

on 8/9/2022, Anders D. Nygaard supposed :

Lumens vs hue.

/dps "both of which change at sunset and sunrise"

[Ken Blake]

On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 15:45:03 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:

>On 2022-08-09 14:24, R.Wieser wrote:
>> lar3ryca
>>
>>> To me, it depends on usage.
>>
>> Of course it does. Specifically, the author has an intended interpretation.
>>
>> For some reason the ad hoc example of "bright & red" versus "bright-red"
>> didn't appear to be differentiated for you, but what about these?
>>
>> chocolate-covered donuts
>> well-known doctor
>> much-needed vacation
>> nice-looking girl
>> https://www.really-learn-english.com/hyphen.html
>
>I don't see a need for a hyphen in any of these.

We're all different. To me, those all need hyphens. Without hyphens I
would read them as

covered donuts that are chocolate

known doctor that is well

needed vacation that is much

looking girl that is nice

The hyphen ties the first two words together in each of these and
makes them a single adjective.

[Ken Blake]

On Tue, 09 Aug 2022 15:36:45 -0700, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:

We don't often agree, but I agree with you on that.

[Snidely]

Ken Blake submitted this idea :

> On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 15:45:03 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-08-09 14:24, R.Wieser wrote:
>>> lar3ryca
>>>
>>>> To me, it depends on usage.
>>>
>>> Of course it does. Specifically, the author has an intended interpretation.
>>>
>>> For some reason the ad hoc example of "bright & red" versus "bright-red"
>>> didn't appear to be differentiated for you, but what about these?
>>>
>>> chocolate-covered donuts
>>> well-known doctor
>>> much-needed vacation
>>> nice-looking girl
>>> https://www.really-learn-english.com/hyphen.html
>>
>> I don't see a need for a hyphen in any of these.
>
>
> We're all different. To me, those all need hyphens. Without hyphens I
> would read them as
>
> covered donuts that are chocolate

Some vendors even have chocolate-covered chocolate donuts.

I prefer the sour-cream/old-fashioned donuts.

> known doctor that is well
>
> needed vacation that is much
>
> looking girl that is nice
>
> The hyphen ties the first two words together in each of these and
> makes them a single adjective.

/dps

--
The presence of this syntax results from the fact that SQLite is really
a Tcl extension that has escaped into the wild.
<http://www.sqlite.org/lang_expr.html>

[Snidely]

Monday, Tony Cooper observed:

> On Mon, 8 Aug 2022 17:12:10 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>
>>> On Monday, August 8, 2022 at 10:27:44 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>>>> On Sunday, August 7, 2022 at 5:47:25 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 7 Aug 2022, at 01:41:21, Ken Blake posted:
>>>>>>> https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/05/health/monkeypox-questions-update/index.html
>>>>>>> "Within five days of the prodrome starting, patients develop a rash
>>>>>>> that can look like pimples or blisters," said Dr. Jason Zucker, an
>>>>>>> infectious diseases specialist
>>>>>> Re When to use hyphens in English? is this doctor a diseases specialist
>>>>>> who is infectious, or an infectious-diseases specialist?
>>>>> what would a "diseases specialist" be?
>>>>
>>>> I think they're called "doctors".
>>>
>>> I'd say some of them are "disease specialists," but that's a Pondian
>>> thing, but it shows why the quibble over the hyphen is silly.
>>
>> I understand someone being a "smallpox specialist", or a "specialist for
>> the [aforementioned] disease", but just "disease specialist"? In what
>> situation would it be useful to convey that someone is specialized in
>> some disease, but keep the disease unspecified?
>>
>
> Rather than a particular disease, like smallpox, the description is
> usually by type: pulmonary disease specialist or infectious disease
> specialist.

Isn't that where we started?

> The latter are quite in demand at present:
>
> https://www.cleveland19.com/2022/08/07/cleveland-infectious-disease-specialist-monkeypox-outbreak-is-bigger-than-expected/

/dps

--
I have always been glad we weren't killed that night. I do not know
any particular reason, but I have always been glad.
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain

[R.Wieser]

Ken Blake

>>> What do you think is the difference between a bright red flower
>>> and a bright-red flower?
>>>
>>> /Anders, Denmark
>>
>>Lumens vs hue.
>
> We don't often agree, but I agree with you on that.

Lumens versus hue said it all.

If I can possibly improve on that three-word descriptor, it might be this
less-than-stellar "albido versus hue" (given user-expected reflectance).
--
Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[Your Name]

On 2022-08-10 14:38:47 +0000, R.Wieser said:

> If I can possibly improve on that three-word descriptor, it might be this
> less-than-stellar "albido versus hue" (given user-expected reflectance).

https://enviro-soil.com/soils101/includes/soil_color.html

Typical albedo values for surface albedo are:
forest 5ĄV10%
wetĄVsoil 10%
sand 20ĄV30%
grass 25%
old snow 55%
concrete 17ĄV27%
fresh snow 80%

Not to be confused with the succubus Albedo
https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Albedo_(Overlord)

"Albedo is one of the main protagonists of the light novel series Overlord.
She is one of the three NPCs created by Tabula Smaragdina and is the
self-proclaimed wife of Ainz Ooal Gown."

[lar3ryca]

Doesn't matter.
If I say it's a bright red flower, it is both bright and red.
If I say it's a bright-red flower, it is also bright and red.
If I wanted to specify a particular shade of red that happened to be
bright, I would definitely say, again, to avoid ambiguity, a "a bright
fire-engine-red flower".

The intensity and shade are two entirely different attributes,


--
Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic.

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-08-09 16:43, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 15:45:03 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-08-09 14:24, R.Wieser wrote:
>>> lar3ryca
>>>
>>>> To me, it depends on usage.
>>>
>>> Of course it does. Specifically, the author has an intended interpretation.
>>>
>>> For some reason the ad hoc example of "bright & red" versus "bright-red"
>>> didn't appear to be differentiated for you, but what about these?
>>>
>>> chocolate-covered donuts
>>> well-known doctor
>>> much-needed vacation
>>> nice-looking girl
>>> https://www.really-learn-english.com/hyphen.html
>>
>> I don't see a need for a hyphen in any of these.
>
>
> We're all different. To me, those all need hyphens. Without hyphens I
> would read them as
>
> covered donuts that are chocolate
>
> known doctor that is well
>
> needed vacation that is much
>
> looking girl that is nice

Would you really interpret them that way? Are you a native English speaker?

> The hyphen ties the first two words together in each of these and
> makes them a single adjective.

--
The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.

[lar3ryca]

Red is not a single hue. I can think of many shades of red that could be
called bright. Of course a 'bright dark-red flower' would definitely
require a hyphen, if anyone wanted to actually say thatthe flower was
both bright and dark-red.

--
Decafalon (n.): The grueling event of getting through the day consuming
only things that are good for you.

[Peter Moylan]

Um ... isn't that spelt "libido"?

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 17:21:46 +1000
Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 10/08/22 12:38, R.Wieser wrote:
> > Ken Blake
> >
> >>>> What do you think is the difference between a bright red flower
> >>>> and a bright-red flower?
> >>>>
> >>>> /Anders, Denmark
> >>>
> >>> Lumens vs hue.
> >>
> >> We don't often agree, but I agree with you on that.
> >
> > Lumens versus hue said it all.
> >
> > If I can possibly improve on that three-word descriptor, it might be this
> > less-than-stellar "albido versus hue" (given user-expected reflectance).
>
> Um ... isn't that spelt "libido"?
>

Not at all, I never saw it, wasn't there and my dead grandmother
agrees. Oh that's an Alibido.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[CDB]

On 8/9/2022 6:35 PM, Snidely wrote:
> R.Wieser wrote :
>> Peter T. Daniels:

>>> What if you think your readers suppose that crayons might be made
>>> from brick?

Or used for colouring brick?

>> What if you said something intelligent for once?

>> Everyone else is carrying on an intelligent conversation.

>> Except you. <plonk!>

Welcome to the ranks of noobstoogery. You'll see.

[CDB]

Is that an Arabic word for horniness?

[CDB]

How about a red-brick university?

[My father used to talk about his hyphenated disc, but by that time his
dotage was well over the horizon]

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, August 9, 2022 at 5:06:51 PM UTC-4, R.Wieser wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels
>
> > What if you think your readers suppose that crayons might be
> > made from brick?
>
> What if you said something intelligent for once?

It wasn't I who postulated crayons made of brick.

> Everyone else is carrying on an intelligent conversation.

FSVO "intelligent," after someone made a peculiar claim
about hyphens without considering the facts.

Oh, look, it all started when this "R. Wieser" decided to
humor Fake Blake by commenting on the trolling post.

> Except you. <plonk!>

I wish that were a reciprocal act. The handful of messages
from that person have been most bizarre. Are they leaking
in from AEU?

[Quinn C]

* Kerr-Mudd, John:

Coming from your grandma, it's even an Alibido Baba.

--
The universe hates you - deal with it.
-- Seamus Harper

[Quinn C]

* Ken Blake:

You remind me of one of my .sigs:

... if you're going around with a red pen and apostrophe, you're
... trying to prove your superiority over people. But if you're
going around trying to use peoples' correct pronouns, ... you're
trying to connect with them and ... respect them.
-- Gretchen McCulloch on Factually!



In detail:

> covered donuts that are chocolate

Those would be covered chocolate donuts.

> known doctor that is well

Maybe if you insert a comma, but even so, it's an unusual use of "well"
(even a well frog can be sick).

> needed vacation that is much

Unidiomatic use of "much" (do you mean "is a lot"?)

> looking girl that is nice

Unidiomatic use of "looking" (do you mean "girl who's looking"?)

To be clear, those are my non-native judgments.

--
... why the English language is riddled with all this gender.
What's it FOR? How did it GET there? Will it go AWAY now please?
-- Helen Zaltzman

[Ken Blake]

On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 23:52:54 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:

>On 2022-08-09 16:43, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 15:45:03 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-08-09 14:24, R.Wieser wrote:
>>>> lar3ryca
>>>>
>>>>> To me, it depends on usage.
>>>>
>>>> Of course it does. Specifically, the author has an intended interpretation.
>>>>
>>>> For some reason the ad hoc example of "bright & red" versus "bright-red"
>>>> didn't appear to be differentiated for you, but what about these?
>>>>
>>>> chocolate-covered donuts
>>>> well-known doctor
>>>> much-needed vacation
>>>> nice-looking girl
>>>> https://www.really-learn-english.com/hyphen.html
>>>
>>> I don't see a need for a hyphen in any of these.
>>
>>
>> We're all different. To me, those all need hyphens. Without hyphens I
>> would read them as
>>
>> covered donuts that are chocolate
>>
>> known doctor that is well
>>
>> needed vacation that is much
>>
>> looking girl that is nice
>
>Would you really interpret them that way? Are you a native English speaker?

Yes, of course I am. Would I really interpret them that way? Perhaps
I'm overstating my point, and I might realize that's not what the
writer meant, but I would certainly think that he didn't write what
he meant to say.

[Ken Blake]

He had a di-sc?

[Ken Blake]

On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 00:04:07 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:

>On 2022-08-09 20:38, R.Wieser wrote:
>> Ken Blake
>>
>>>>> What do you think is the difference between a bright red flower
>>>>> and a bright-red flower?
>>>>>
>>>>> /Anders, Denmark
>>>>
>>>> Lumens vs hue.
>>>
>>> We don't often agree, but I agree with you on that.
>>
>> Lumens versus hue said it all.
>>
>> If I can possibly improve on that three-word descriptor, it might be this
>> less-than-stellar "albido versus hue" (given user-expected reflectance).
>
>Red is not a single hue.

That depends on your definition of "hue." To me it is. When I was in
art school. Red was called a "hue." Darker varieties of the red hue
were called "shades of red, " and lighter varieties were called "tints
of red.

[R.Wieser]

lar3ryca

> If I say it's a bright red flower, it is both bright and red.
> If I say it's a bright-red flower, it is also bright and red.

It's all up to you, the author, how hard you want to make your reader work.
The purpose of the hyphen is to help the reader ascertain your intentions.
If your reader doesn't need that help - then you wouldn't need the hyphen.
--
Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

Now That's Magic! </Paul Daniels>

[I quite liked Ali Bongo, a sort of understated Alic^wHenr^wTommy! Cooper]

[Quinn C]

Sorry, I know only one To*y Cooper.

A German comedy show had the brothers Mente as recurring figures, Ali
and Rudi.

--
Where we are, when we are ... nothing but lies told by the senses.
-- Trance Gemini

[lar3ryca]

Hyphen needed only if there is such a thing as a university that teaches
people about bricks, and if you allow the use of 'university' as a word
for the building that contains it.

> [My father used to talk about his hyphenated disc, but by that time his
> dotage was well over the horizon]

--
The past tense of William Shakespeare is "WouldIwas Shookspeared".

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-08-10 09:04, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 00:04:07 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-08-09 20:38, R.Wieser wrote:
>>> Ken Blake
>>>
>>>>>> What do you think is the difference between a bright red flower
>>>>>> and a bright-red flower?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /Anders, Denmark
>>>>>
>>>>> Lumens vs hue.
>>>>
>>>> We don't often agree, but I agree with you on that.
>>>
>>> Lumens versus hue said it all.
>>>
>>> If I can possibly improve on that three-word descriptor, it might be this
>>> less-than-stellar "albido versus hue" (given user-expected reflectance).
>>
>> Red is not a single hue.
>
>
> That depends on your definition of "hue." To me it is. When I was in
> art school. Red was called a "hue." Darker varieties of the red hue
> were called "shades of red, " and lighter varieties were called "tints
> of red.

Merriam Webster

2 a : color
/all the hues of the rainbow/
b : gradation of color
/the hues and shades of twilight — Colin Clark/
c : the attribute of colors that permits them to be classed as red,
yellow, green, blue, or an intermediate between any contiguous
pair of these colors
/red with an orange hue/

Even if we go by your art school definition (jargon though it may be),
the flower can have both luminosity and hue, and since those adjectives
have separate meanings, the link I was pointed two had, as a 'rule'

"Do not use a hyphen if the two words have separate meanings and do not
stand as a single adjective".

>> I can think of many shades of red that could be
>> called bright. Of course a 'bright dark-red flower' would definitely
>> require a hyphen, if anyone wanted to actually say thatthe flower was
>> both bright and dark-red.

--
Of course I know which side my bread is buttered on, but I don't care.
I eat both sides.

[lar3ryca]

I was just winging it, so I guess it was an adlibido.

[Snidely]

On Tuesday, lar3ryca queried:

Indeed, and bright-red is a shade.

/dps

--
Yes, I have had a cucumber soda. Why do you ask?

[CDB]

On 8/10/2022 5:36 PM, lar3ryca wrote:

Trick question.

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/red_brick

[CDB]

On 8/10/2022 11:00 AM, Ken Blake wrote:

I think more of a dis-c.

[NO LOITERING]

[Quinn C]

* CDB:

And here I was expecting a C-D.
--
It was frequently the fastest way to find what he was looking
for, provided that he was looking for trouble.
-- L. McMaster Bujold, Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen

[CDB]

On 8/11/2022 8:20 AM, Quinn C wrote:
> CDB:

That would B showing off.

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Den 10-08-2022 kl. 00:36 skrev Snidely:
> on 8/9/2022, Anders D. Nygaard supposed :

>> What do you think is the difference between a bright red flower
>> and a bright-red flower?
>

> Lumens vs hue.

Lumens are not a property of the flower, but of lighting,
so (imho) cannot enter into a description of the flower.

> /dps "both of which change at sunset and sunrise"

Whereas the hue is intrinsic to the flower
(though you cannot determine it when there is too little light).

Try again.

/Anders, Denmark

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 07:12:44 -0400, CDB wrote:

> Trick question.
>
> https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/red_brick

Interestingly, one might think of a red-brick university as an "older"
institution here in the states but there across the pond it's "newer."

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/red_brick
(of a British university) founded in the late 19th or early 20th century
and with buildings of brick, as distinct from the older universities built
of stone, as in "a junior history professor at a red-brick university."

[Snidely]

Anders D. Nygaard asserted that:

Reflect upon it, Anders, reflect upon it.

/dps

--
Let's celebrate Macaronesia

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, August 11, 2022 at 8:54:10 PM UTC-4, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 07:12:44 -0400, CDB wrote:

> > Trick question.
> > https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/red_brick
>
> Interestingly, one might think of a red-brick university as an "older"
> institution here in the states

Why might one do that? It's not an existing expression. To be
sure, the College of William and Mary's historic building at
Colonial Williamsburg is red-brick, but so are the other surviving
public buildings there.

I don't know how old the earliest surviving buildings at Harvard
and Yale are, but brick doesn't feature prominently in the campus
architecture overall.

The oldest buildings at Cornell are stone; the brick ones were
rather new when I arrived in 1968.

The University of Chicago is still known as the "Grey City" because
its campus was built across the street from the "White City," the
1893 World's Columbian Exposition, and is of gray stone. Some
"temporary" brick buildings were added during wartime (a room
in one of them is a National Historic Site), and a rather handsome
one in (again) the 1960s.

IIRC there's a lot of brick at Stanford, which is probably the
youngest of the US's prestigious universities.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 18:54:30 -0600, Ken Blake <K...@invalidinvalid.com>
wrote:

The term "red-brick university" is not used in the US, so the
misunderstanding would only be when we read/hear about a "red-brick
university in the UK.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[charles]

In article <30cafbf0-c3c3-4ab6...@googlegroups.com>,

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Thursday, August 11, 2022 at 8:54:10 PM UTC-4, Ken Blake wrote:
> > On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 07:12:44 -0400, CDB wrote:

> > > Trick question.
> > > https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/red_brick
> >
> > Interestingly, one might think of a red-brick university as an "older"
> > institution here in the states

> Why might one do that? It's not an existing expression.

It's a UK expression, From Tudor times onwards brick tended to be used as a
building material. The two oldest English Universities, tended to use
stone as the buidling material, although my Cambridge College, founded in
1428. used brick.
Anywhere more modern was known as "Red Brick".

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 at 16:21:07, Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com>
wrote: (my responses usually follow points raised):

> The term "red-brick university" is not used in the US, so the
> misunderstanding would only be when we read/hear about a "red-brick
> university in the UK.

Harvard, which has plenty of brick (usually red) buildings, is, as a result
of that brick, called an "Ivy League university" here across the pond.

Do those over there refer to it as that instead of as a red-brick
university?

What grows on the red brick of those red-brick universities over yonder?

[Richard Heathfield]

Leagues, much to the disgust of the ground staff. They get
everywhere..

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Tony Cooper]

One difference is that term "Ivy League universities" refers to eight
specific universities: Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth*, Harvard,
Princeton, Yale, and the University of Pennsylvania. The term
"red-brick universities" in the UK does not refer to a specific number
of universities.

I've been by Columbia, but I didn't really notice if any of the walls
were ivy-covered. I'm not sure ivy can survive New York City.

*Dartmouth is a university, but not in name. It's Dartmouth College.

[charles]

In article <td614t$2i3hd$1...@dont-email.me>, J. P. Gilliver (John)

I suspect they keep the bricks clear of vegetation.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, August 12, 2022 at 12:30:46 PM UTC-4, charles wrote:
> In article <30cafbf0-c3c3-4ab6...@googlegroups.com>,
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 11, 2022 at 8:54:10 PM UTC-4, Ken Blake wrote:
> > > On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 07:12:44 -0400, CDB wrote:

> > > > Trick question.
> > > > https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/red_brick
> > > Interestingly, one might think of a red-brick university as an "older"
> > > institution here in the states
> > Why might one do that? It's not an existing expression.
>
> It's a UK expression, From Tudor times onwards brick tended to be used as a
> building material. The two oldest English Universities, tended to use
> stone as the buidling material, although my Cambridge College, founded in
> 1428. used brick.
> Anywhere more modern was known as "Red Brick".

Exactly. Did you look at the comment I was responding to, or at
the data I provided that refuted the assertion?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, August 12, 2022 at 1:03:31 PM UTC-4, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 at 16:21:07, Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com>
> wrote: (my responses usually follow points raised):

> > The term "red-brick university" is not used in the US, so the
> > misunderstanding would only be when we read/hear about a "red-brick
> > university in the UK.
>
> Harvard, which has plenty of brick (usually red) buildings, is, as a result
> of that brick, called an "Ivy League university" here across the pond.

Uh, no, Harvard is one of the eight (prestigious) universities that
compete in sports with each other (because for the most part
their sports teams are not of a caliber to compete with the better
known sports universities such as those that make up the Big
Ten league [which comprises more than ten universities]). The
name of the sports league is, as often happens, a shorthand for
referring to the Ivy League universities as a group. By state from
north to south: Dartmouth,* Harvard, Brown, Yale, Columbia,
Cornell,** Princeton, Penn.

*Dartmouth retains the name "College" but is a university.
**Cornell is north of all the others save Dartmouth but yields
in seniority to Columbia.

They are called the Ivy League because traditionally universities
(even less-prestigious ones) had ivy growing on the walls of their
buildings, until it was realized that ivy can be harmful to the stone
surfaces it clings to. The memoir by Muriel Beadle, the wife of the
former president (and Nobel Prize laureate) of the University of
Chicago, George Beadle, is titled *Where Has All the Ivy Gone?*

> Do those over there refer to it as that instead of as a red-brick
> university?

Assuming "it" refers to Harvard, yes. It would not be called a
"red-brick university" because in British English that would be \
an insult to its status as the oldest institution of higher learning
in the US (est. 1630).

> What grows on the red brick of those red-brick universities over yonder?

Hopefully nothing, as climbing plants usually use a solvent to
maintain their position. But "those red-brick universities" does
not refer to anything "over hither."

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 at 19:28:18, "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net>

wrote: (my responses usually follow points raised):

>> Harvard, which has plenty of brick (usually red) buildings, is, as a result
>> of that brick, called an "Ivy League university" here across the pond.
>
> Uh, no, Harvard is one of the eight (prestigious) universities that
> compete in sports with each other

I'm not even going to respond to someone as stupid as you are Mr. Daniels.

Look up WHY there's "ivy" in the name, you stupid uneducated moron.
What are you even doing here? You should be in remedial reading classes.

For the fifth grade.

Sheesh.
I thought people as stupid as you are would be Darwinized out already.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 07:37:21 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:


>The University of Chicago is still known as the "Grey City" because
>its campus was built across the street from the "White City," the
>1893 World's Columbian Exposition, and is of gray stone

I know you don't like information added to something you've posted,
but here goes:

The "White City" term for the Exposition came from the building's
colors. The architects agreed that all of the buildings would be the
same color, and that was a "chalk-white over plaster of Paris".

I'm currently (slowly) reading "The Devil in the White City" by Erik
Larson. Larson's non-fiction book is about the architect Daniel
Burnham's part in creating the Exposition and the serial killer Herman
Mudgett (aka Dr Henry Howard Holmes) who was active the area at the
time.

It's a slow read for several reasons. Mine is a paperback copy
(Vintage Books, Division of Random House) the reduced page size, the
fact that it is set in a typeface that is usually reserved for the
disclaimers at the bottom of dicey advertisments, and that it is
combined with an almost-gray ink makes it not suitable for my
post-operative vision.

Knowing your interest in architects and architecture, I recommend the
book for you. While Burnham was the lead architect, the Exposition
was a collaborative effort of several famous architects and their
parts are detailed in the book. Frederick Law Olmsted - the
landscape architect who, with Calvert Vaux, designed NY's Central
Park - is prominent in the book.

The book has won several awards, but - should you find a copy - avoid
the paperback version.

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 18:03:53 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<G6...@255soft.uk> wrote:


John, are you new to AUE? I don't remember seeing you here before.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, August 12, 2022 at 3:20:46 PM UTC-4, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 at 19:28:18, "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net>
> wrote: (my responses usually follow points raised):

Well where else would your "responses" be, moron?

> >> Harvard, which has plenty of brick (usually red) buildings, is, as a result
> >> of that brick, called an "Ivy League university" here across the pond.
> > Uh, no, Harvard is one of the eight (prestigious) universities that
> > compete in sports with each other
>
> I'm not even going to respond to someone as stupid as you are Mr. Daniels.

Really? Then what is this response?

> Look up WHY there's "ivy" in the name, you stupid uneducated moron.

I explained it to you.

Looks like you're too stupid to read more than one sentence at a time.

> What are you even doing here? You should be in remedial reading classes.
>
> For the fifth grade.
>
> Sheesh.
> I thought people as stupid as you are would be Darwinized out already.

Your pathetic attempts at insults bear a very close resemblance to
those from something calling itself "R. Wieser."

It's pretty juvenile to not use one's real name, let alone trying to
get away with multiple nyms.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, August 12, 2022 at 3:26:26 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 07:37:21 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> >The University of Chicago is still known as the "Grey City" because
> >its campus was built across the street from the "White City," the
> >1893 World's Columbian Exposition, and is of gray stone
>
> I know you don't like information added to something you've posted,
> but here goes:
>
> The "White City" term for the Exposition came from the building's
> colors. The architects agreed that all of the buildings would be the
> same color, and that was a "chalk-white over plaster of Paris".

Well duh.

> I'm currently (slowly) reading "The Devil in the White City" by Erik
> Larson. Larson's non-fiction book is about the architect Daniel
> Burnham's part in creating the Exposition and the serial killer Herman
> Mudgett (aka Dr Henry Howard Holmes) who was active the area at the
> time.
>
> It's a slow read for several reasons. Mine is a paperback copy
> (Vintage Books, Division of Random House) the reduced page size, the
> fact that it is set in a typeface that is usually reserved for the
> disclaimers at the bottom of dicey advertisments, and that it is
> combined with an almost-gray ink makes it not suitable for my
> post-operative vision.
>
> Knowing your interest in architects and architecture, I recommend the
> book for you. While Burnham was the lead architect, the Exposition
> was a collaborative effort of several famous architects and their
> parts are detailed in the book. Frederick Law Olmsted - the
> landscape architect who, with Calvert Vaux, designed NY's Central
> Park - is prominent in the book.

It's a fairly old book, and it's mostly fiction. Don't believe most
of what it says about the Exposition or the serial killer. He's gone
on to give the same treatment to other topics, and I didn't even
consider taking them up. (Maybe not quite as bad as Caleb Carr
[*The Alienist*], who not only invented most of what he claimed
was NYC history, but also isn't a good writer.)

> The book has won several awards, but - should you find a copy - avoid
> the paperback version.

There was nothing wrong with it in 2003. It's a poor craftsman
who blames his tools -- or cataract surgeree who blames his
reading materials.

[Quinn C]

* J. P. Gilliver (John):

I don't remember seeing your name here before, but you're already a hot
candidate for the loony bin with that level of invective. The person
you're ranting at can be annoying, but you take it to a whole other
level.

--
- There's someone here wanting to audition. - OK, Who is he?
- Well, it's not exactly a he. - OK, Who is she?
- Well, it's not exactly a she. ... it's sort of a they.
- You mean there's more than one? - Not really.
- Good grief, it's a triple-header.
-> <https://muppet.fandom.com/wiki/Tom,_Dick,_and_Harry>

[Paul Wolff]

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022, at 13:29:03, Tony Cooper posted:

>On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 18:03:53 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

>>On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 at 16:21:07, Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com>
>>wrote: (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>> The term "red-brick university" is not used in the US, so the
>>> misunderstanding would only be when we read/hear about a "red-brick
>>> university in the UK.
>>
>>Harvard, which has plenty of brick (usually red) buildings, is, as a result
>>of that brick, called an "Ivy League university" here across the pond.
>>
>>Do those over there refer to it as that instead of as a red-brick
>>university?
>>
>>What grows on the red brick of those red-brick universities over yonder?
>
>One difference is that term "Ivy League universities" refers to eight
>specific universities: Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth*, Harvard,
>Princeton, Yale, and the University of Pennsylvania. The term
>"red-brick universities" in the UK does not refer to a specific number
>of universities.
>
>I've been by Columbia, but I didn't really notice if any of the walls
>were ivy-covered. I'm not sure ivy can survive New York City.
>
>*Dartmouth is a university, but not in name. It's Dartmouth College.
>

That name is easily confused with Britannia Royal Naval College,
Dartmouth, in the UK, for naval officer training.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Royal_Naval_College>
That's 'Dartmouth' to us over here. I don't know the US equivalent -
maybe located near San Diego or in Chesapeake Bay. For Army officer
training, I think your West Point corresponds to our Sandhurst.
--
Paul

[Jerry Friedman]

The second is right. It's some decades older than San Diego's
being in the U. S.

> For Army officer
> training, I think your West Point corresponds to our Sandhurst.

Also right. I notice that it has three names--formally the U. S.
Military Academy, but people usually say West Point, but in
intercollegiate sports it's called Army. The U. S. Naval Academy
is called Navy in sports and sometimes Annapolis, but maybe
not as often as the Military Academy is called West Point?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Tony Cooper]

Chesapeake Bay. Our United States Naval Academy has been located in
Annapolis, Maryland since 1845. Its precedessor was the Philadelphia
Naval Asylum School.

"West Point" is actually the United States Military Academy which is
in West Point, New York. We do refer to it as "West Point", though.

Air Force officers are trained at the United States Air Force Academy
near Colorado Springs, Colorado. Coast Guard officers are trained at
the United States Coast Guard Academy in New London, Connecticut.

[Jerry Friedman]

So I was wrong about decades. Just three years before the U.S. officially
gained control of San Diego, not that San Diego would have been a good
place for an American service academy at the time.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Sam Plusnet]

On 12-Aug-22 23:18, Quinn C wrote:
> * J. P. Gilliver (John):
>
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 at 19:28:18, "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net>
>> wrote: (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>>> Harvard, which has plenty of brick (usually red) buildings, is, as a result
>>>> of that brick, called an "Ivy League university" here across the pond.
>>>
>>> Uh, no, Harvard is one of the eight (prestigious) universities that
>>> compete in sports with each other
>>
>> I'm not even going to respond to someone as stupid as you are Mr. Daniels.
>>
>> Look up WHY there's "ivy" in the name, you stupid uneducated moron.
>> What are you even doing here? You should be in remedial reading classes.
>>
>> For the fifth grade.
>>
>> Sheesh.
>> I thought people as stupid as you are would be Darwinized out already.
>
> I don't remember seeing your name here before, but you're already a hot
> candidate for the loony bin with that level of invective. The person
> you're ranting at can be annoying, but you take it to a whole other
> level.
>

I find it impossible to believe that the J. P. Gilliver I have known for
years in other newsgroups, would actually write anything remotely like that.
I suspect one of the common trolls is playing silly buggers again.

J. P. Gilliver posts in BrE. I get the distinct impression that this
counterfeit posts in AmE.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

This must be a fake & not the real J. P. Gilliver[1] who would never
post such vitriol.

So Ken Blake is not alone in attracting trollish counterfeits.

[1] John has posted for many years in other newsgroups.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Peter Moylan]

On 13/08/22 05:26, Tony Cooper wrote:

> I'm currently (slowly) reading "The Devil in the White City" by Erik
> Larson. Larson's non-fiction book is about the architect Daniel
> Burnham's part in creating the Exposition and the serial killer
> Herman Mudgett (aka Dr Henry Howard Holmes) who was active the area
> at the time.
>
> It's a slow read for several reasons. Mine is a paperback copy
> (Vintage Books, Division of Random House) the reduced page size,
> the fact that it is set in a typeface that is usually reserved for
> the disclaimers at the bottom of dicey advertisments, and that it is
> combined with an almost-gray ink makes it not suitable for my
> post-operative vision.

I share your pain. I'm currently reading some paperbacks that I bought a
mere 50 years ago, and it seems to me that the print is not as dark as
it used to be. It's a struggle.

I keep meaning to buy a miner's lamp. That is, the sort of light that
can be strapped onto one's forehead. I used to have that sort of thing
for reading on camping trips, and it compensates well for hard-to-read
pages.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Mark Brader]

Tony Cooper:
> One difference [from "red-brick universities"] is that [the] term

> "Ivy League universities" refers to eight specific universities:
> Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth*, Harvard, Princeton, Yale,
> and the University of Pennsylvania.

In fact, the Ivy League is a sports league that these universities
participate in. Like many names of sports teams, it was originally
the league's nickname and then became the official name.

*New Hampshire, not Nova Scotia or Massachusetts.
--
Mark Brader | "Youths steal funds for charity"
Toronto | --White Plains, NY, Reporter Dispatch
m...@vex.net | February 17, 1982

[Snidely]

Anders D. Nygaard wrote on 8/8/2022 :
> Den 08-08-2022 kl. 13:01 skrev Paul Wolff:
>> On Sun, 7 Aug 2022, at 20:03:14, Jerry Friedman posted:
>>> [ infectious diseases specialist ]
>>> What's the difference between a bright red flower and a bright-red
>>> flower?
>>>
>> Assuming the flower itself isn't luminescent, and since both bright and red
>> are qualifiers of light reflected from the flower, I can't see (!) the
>> difference between a flower that is bright-red and a flower that is both
>> bright and red. Or is bright-red a distinct hue that a bright and red
>> flower may lack?
>
> I agree; in this case, there seems to be no practical difference.
>
> /Anders, Denmark

DOS/cmd window

REM black background red foreground
color 04
REM black background bright-red foreground
color 0c

HTML colors:

Red: #FF0000
OrangeRed: #FF4500
Maroon: #800000
DarkRed: #8B0000
FireBrick: #B22222
Crimson: #DC143C

And from colorcodes.io:

Bright Red Color Codes
BRIGHT RED
PMS: 2347 C
HEX COLOR: #E10600;
RGB: (225,6,0)
CMYK: (0,94,100,0)

/dps

--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean