is nudity porn?

[Transition Zone]

Re: Trump Chose " MacDougal " Porn Girl. Why?
On 9/22/2022 1:27 PM, bruce bowser wrote in rec.arts.tv:
> On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 2:47:06 PM UTC-4, A Friend wrote in rec.arts.tv::
>> In article <5dad31b6-0fe3-4d39...@googlegroups.com>,
>> bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 5:59:39 AM UTC-4, A Friend wrote:
>>>> In article <tgeld2$1nvk$2...@gioia.aioe.org>, trotsky <gms...@email.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 9/20/2022 8:58 PM, bruce bowser wrote:
>>>>>> Did the name MacDougal simply remind Trump of the 1990's-era MacDougal
>>>>>> Arkansas bankers?
>>>>>
>>>>> She wasn't in porn, she was Playboy's Playmate of the Year, which back
>>>>> in the day was a really big deal.
>>>> Miss December 1997. BTW it was spelled McDougal.
>>>
>>> Sorry. On Oct 5, 2018, Focus Online.de must have made a mistake:
>>> --
>>> https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/usa/neue-details-vor-buchveroeffentlichun
>>> g-melania-trump-mit-schoenling-in-uniform-wollte-sie-donald-eifersuechtig-machen_id_24302357.html
>> They did make the mistake. They also called her a "Porno-Star," and
>> AFAIK she's never done porn.
>
> She appeared naked on film. What are your definitions of that other than porn?

1) Nudity is necessary for porn.
2) Ask any woman if intentional nudity is porn? They'll say yes.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 23.09.2022 kl. 22.40 skrev Transition Zone:

> 1) Nudity is necessary for porn.
> 2) Ask any woman if intentional nudity is porn? They'll say yes.

No, they won't. In Denmark it is legal to bathe in the nude, both sun-
and waterbathing, at any beach in the country. Those who do so, are not
performing porn. We also have nudist camps or naturalist camps where it
is legal to go around naked 24/7. That also has nothing to do with porn.

Some people may get aroused at the sight or the thought, but that is in
their minds - not in the act.

--
Bertel

[Hibou]

Just so.

What's more, nudity isn't necessary for porn. Lexicographers already
have it defined: pornography - "writings, pictures, films, etc. designed
to stimulate sexual excitement" (Collins). One can stimulate sexual
excitement without being nude.

[musika]

On 24/09/2022 05:38, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Den 23.09.2022 kl. 22.40 skrev Transition Zone:
>
>> 1) Nudity is necessary for porn.
>> 2) Ask any woman if intentional nudity is porn?  They'll say yes.
>
> No, they won't. In Denmark it is legal to bathe in the nude, both sun-
> and waterbathing, at any beach in the country. Those who do so, are not
> performing porn. We also have nudist camps or naturalist camps

ObAUE - naturist

> where it
> is legal to go around naked 24/7. That also has nothing to do with porn.
>
> Some people may get aroused at the sight or the thought, but that is in
> their minds - not in the act.
>


--

Ray
UK

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Nonsense

> 2) Ask any woman if intentional nudity is porn? They'll say yes.

_Any_ woman? How many have you asked? None, I suspect, and I'm sure
you've never asked at a nudist beach.

I guess Transition Zone is American, to write such drivel.




--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[CDB]

On 9/23/2022 4:40 PM, Transition Zone wrote:

[Re: Trump Chose " MacDougal " Porn Girl. Why?]

> bruce bowser wrote in rec.arts.tv:

>> A Friend wrote in rec.arts.tv::

>>> bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> A Friend wrote:

>>>>> trotsky <gms...@email.com> wrote:
>>>>>> bruce bowser wrote:

>>>>>>> Did the name MacDougal simply remind Trump of the
>>>>>>> 1990's-era MacDougal Arkansas bankers?

>>>>>> She wasn't in porn, she was Playboy's Playmate of the Year,
>>>>>> which back in the day was a really big deal.
>>>>> Miss December 1997. BTW it was spelled McDougal.

>>>> Sorry. On Oct 5, 2018, Focus Online.de must have made a
>>>> mistake: --
>>>> https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/usa/neue-details-vor-buchveroeffentlichun
>>>>
>>>>
g-melania-trump-mit-schoenling-in-uniform-wollte-sie-donald-eifersuechtig-machen_id_24302357.html
>>> They did make the mistake. They also called her a "Porno-Star,"
>>> and AFAIK she's never done porn.

>> She appeared naked on film. What are your definitions of that other
>> than porn?

> 1) Nudity is necessary for porn. 2) Ask any woman if intentional
> nudity is porn? They'll say yes.

In olden days a glimpse of stocking was looked on as something shocking.

[Paul Carmichael]

El Fri, 23 Sep 2022 13:40:59 -0700, Transition Zone escribió:

> 1) Nudity is necessary for porn.
> 2) Ask any woman if intentional nudity is porn? They'll say yes.

https://www.nakedwanderings.com/naturism-in-spain-ultimate-guide-2020/

I can walk down the street naked if I want to. Unless somebody complains.


--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[Ken Blake]

Right. For example, something written can be pornographic.

>
>> 2) Ask any woman if intentional nudity is porn? They'll say yes.
>
>_Any_ woman? How many have you asked? None, I suspect, and I'm sure
>you've never asked at a nudist beach.

Not to mention artist's models.

>I guess Transition Zone is American, to write such drivel.

Two points:

1.Not all Americans write drivel.
2. Drivel is often written by people who are not Americans.

[Paul Carmichael]

El Sat, 24 Sep 2022 08:29:00 -0700, Ken Blake escribió:


> Right. For example, something written can be pornographic.

LCL was considered pornographic in its day.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[Mack A. Damia]

Greek "pornographos", adjective, writing about prostitutes, from porne
prostitute + graphein to write.

Depends on what the nude people do.

[Ken Blake]

On 24 Sep 2022 15:39:15 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>El Sat, 24 Sep 2022 08:29:00 -0700, Ken Blake escribió:
>
>
>> Right. For example, something written can be pornographic.
>
>LCL was considered pornographic in its day.

I thought about LCL for a while, and I finally figured out what you
meant.

Yes.

[Ken Blake]

Yes, probably some of them write about prostitutes.

[Hibou]

Le 24/09/2022 à 16:54, Ken Blake a écrit :

> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>
>> Greek "pornographos", adjective, writing about prostitutes, from porne
>> prostitute + graphein to write.
>>
>> Depends on what the nude people do.
>
> Yes, probably some of them write about prostitutes.

For books about tarts, there's nothing to beat a bookshop's baking section.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 24.09.2022 kl. 17.39 skrev Paul Carmichael:

> LCL was considered pornographic in its day.

Le Crédit Lyonnais?

--
Bertel

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 24.09.2022 kl. 16.35 skrev Paul Carmichael:

> I can walk down the street naked if I want to. Unless somebody complains.

It's the same in Denmark, and it reminds med of an incident that I saw.
I was walking on the pavement in Copenhagen in a very busy streat
leading to the Train Station. A man who had just turned the corner, took
off all his clothes and walked on leaving them on the pavement. He was
not (visibly) sexually aroused. The only reaction was "Hey, you forgot
your clothes!".

--
Bertel

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 24.09.2022 kl. 17.54 skrev Ken Blake:

> Yes, probably some of them write about prostitutes.

And you can do that without writing pornography.

--
Bertel

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 1:59:58 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> Le 24/09/2022 à 05:38, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
> > Den 23.09.2022 kl. 22.40 skrev Transition Zone:

> >> 1) Nudity is necessary for porn.
> >> 2) Ask any woman if intentional nudity is porn? They'll say yes.
> > No, they won't. In Denmark it is legal to bathe in the nude, both sun-
> > and waterbathing, at any beach in the country. Those who do so, are not
> > performing porn. We also have nudist camps or naturalist camps where it

naturist

(a naturalist studies nature; naturist is a sort of euphemism
for what used to be called "sun-worshiper," i.e., nudist.

> > is legal to go around naked 24/7. That also has nothing to do with porn.
> > Some people may get aroused at the sight or the thought, but that is in
> > their minds - not in the act.
>
> Just so.
>
> What's more, nudity isn't necessary for porn. Lexicographers already
> have it defined: pornography - "writings, pictures, films, etc. designed
> to stimulate sexual excitement" (Collins). One can stimulate sexual
> excitement without being nude.

Could Mae West have been any more totally covered up?

[Peter T. Daniels]

I guess the "enzyme kineticist" has been taking JJ lessons. It was
decades before British porn caught up with US (let alone European)
porn.

It started with the bowser. TZ is a troll.

[Sam Plusnet]

On 24/09/2022 18:14, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 1:59:58 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 24/09/2022 à 05:38, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
>>> Den 23.09.2022 kl. 22.40 skrev Transition Zone:
>
>>>> 1) Nudity is necessary for porn.
>>>> 2) Ask any woman if intentional nudity is porn? They'll say yes.
>>> No, they won't. In Denmark it is legal to bathe in the nude, both sun-
>>> and waterbathing, at any beach in the country. Those who do so, are not
>>> performing porn. We also have nudist camps or naturalist camps where it
>
> naturist
>
> (a naturalist studies nature; naturist is a sort of euphemism
> for what used to be called "sun-worshiper," i.e., nudist.

I think that distinction (naturalist/naturist) is true for many English
speakers, but some do conflate the two (context usually means it's not
too difficult to tell which is meant).

>
>>> is legal to go around naked 24/7. That also has nothing to do with porn.
>>> Some people may get aroused at the sight or the thought, but that is in
>>> their minds - not in the act.
>>
>> Just so.
>>
>> What's more, nudity isn't necessary for porn. Lexicographers already
>> have it defined: pornography - "writings, pictures, films, etc. designed
>> to stimulate sexual excitement" (Collins). One can stimulate sexual
>> excitement without being nude.
>
> Could Mae West have been any more totally covered up?

She was raunchy, but not at all pornographic (in my view, of course).

[Sam Plusnet]

Filthy lucre. Absolute filth!

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 24.09.2022 kl. 20.06 skrev Sam Plusnet:

> Filthy lucre.  Absolute filth!

Okay, then I must ask explicitly: What does LCL mean?

--
Bertel

[bruce bowser]

On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 12:38:50 AM UTC-4, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Den 23.09.2022 kl. 22.40 skrev Transition Zone:
>
> > 1) Nudity is necessary for porn.
> > 2) Ask any woman if intentional nudity is porn? They'll say yes.
> No, they won't. In Denmark it is legal to bathe in the nude, both sun-
> and waterbathing, at any beach in the country. Those who do so, are not
> performing porn. We also have nudist camps or naturalist camps where it
> is legal to go around naked 24/7. That also has nothing to do with porn.
>
> Some people may get aroused at the sight or the thought,

Et med nøgenhed hvad der ellers er nødvendigt for porno?

> but that is in their minds - not in the act.

Porno har brug for nøgenhed til stede, ikke nødvendigvis en ,,akt''.

[Tony Cooper]

Lady Chatterley's Lover.
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[Ken Blake]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 19:04:09 +0100, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:

>On 24/09/2022 18:14, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 1:59:58 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
>>> Le 24/09/2022 à 05:38, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
>>>> Den 23.09.2022 kl. 22.40 skrev Transition Zone:
>>
>>>>> 1) Nudity is necessary for porn.
>>>>> 2) Ask any woman if intentional nudity is porn? They'll say yes.
>>>> No, they won't. In Denmark it is legal to bathe in the nude, both sun-
>>>> and waterbathing, at any beach in the country. Those who do so, are not
>>>> performing porn. We also have nudist camps or naturalist camps where it
>>
>> naturist
>>
>> (a naturalist studies nature; naturist is a sort of euphemism
>> for what used to be called "sun-worshiper," i.e., nudist.
>
>I think that distinction (naturalist/naturist) is true for many English
>speakers,

Yes. Me, for example. I've been a naturalist (at a local park), but
never a naturist.

> but some do conflate the two

Yes, unfortunately.

>(context usually means it's not
>too difficult to tell which is meant).

I'm not sure about "usually," but yes that's often true. But not
always.

>>>> is legal to go around naked 24/7. That also has nothing to do with porn.
>>>> Some people may get aroused at the sight or the thought, but that is in
>>>> their minds - not in the act.
>>>
>>> Just so.
>>>
>>> What's more, nudity isn't necessary for porn. Lexicographers already
>>> have it defined: pornography - "writings, pictures, films, etc. designed
>>> to stimulate sexual excitement" (Collins). One can stimulate sexual
>>> excitement without being nude.
>>
>> Could Mae West have been any more totally covered up?
>
>She was raunchy, but not at all pornographic (in my view, of course).

My view, too.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 2:04:15 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 24/09/2022 18:14, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 1:59:58 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> >> Le 24/09/2022 à 05:38, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
> >>> Den 23.09.2022 kl. 22.40 skrev Transition Zone:

> >>>> 1) Nudity is necessary for porn.
> >>>> 2) Ask any woman if intentional nudity is porn? They'll say yes.
> >>> No, they won't. In Denmark it is legal to bathe in the nude, both sun-
> >>> and waterbathing, at any beach in the country. Those who do so, are not
> >>> performing porn. We also have nudist camps or naturalist camps where it
> > naturist
> > (a naturalist studies nature; naturist is a sort of euphemism
> > for what used to be called "sun-worshiper," i.e., nudist.
>
> I think that distinction (naturalist/naturist) is true for many English
> speakers, but some do conflate the two (context usually means it's not
> too difficult to tell which is meant).

Naturalists seem to be spoken of a lot more often than naturists.

> >>> is legal to go around naked 24/7. That also has nothing to do with porn.
> >>> Some people may get aroused at the sight or the thought, but that is in
> >>> their minds - not in the act.
> >> Just so.
> >> What's more, nudity isn't necessary for porn. Lexicographers already
> >> have it defined: pornography - "writings, pictures, films, etc. designed
> >> to stimulate sexual excitement" (Collins). One can stimulate sexual
> >> excitement without being nude.
> > Could Mae West have been any more totally covered up?
>
> She was raunchy, but not at all pornographic (in my view, of course).

The criterion was "stimulate sexual excitement without being nude."

Maybe in this century you're overly jaded, but at least between the
1920s and early 1940s, she stimulated plenty of sexual excitement.
It didn't hurt that (almost ?) all her movies were period pieces.

[bruce bowser]

A classic book.

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

I've never seen what I'd think of when I hear "child pornography" (e.g.
images in which someone touches a child), but I've come across pictures
of children who were clad, but taken in a way that was clearly meant to
titillate. Those may fall under child pornography.

--
Doctor: If you were human, I'd say you had a severe panic attack.
Tuvok: I am not human.
Doctor: No kidding.
-- Star Trek: Voyager S03E02

[Hibou]

I think the definition I quoted applies to the purpose of the work. A
work designed to entertain can contain erotic moments, without being
pornography.

I suppose the question is: is the eroticism there for its own sake, or
is it part of something larger?

[Ross Clark]

Or prostituting one's writing talents? Probably equally common.

[Paul Carmichael]

El Sat, 24 Sep 2022 14:21:13 -0400, Tony Cooper escribió:

> On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 20:14:23 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
> <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>
>>Den 24.09.2022 kl. 20.06 skrev Sam Plusnet:
>>
>>> Filthy lucre.  Absolute filth!
>>
>>Okay, then I must ask explicitly: What does LCL mean?
>
> Lady Chatterley's Lover.

You dare write it out in full? Burn the porn peddler!

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[Paul Carmichael]

They say size doesn't matter.


--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[Peter Moylan]

On 24/09/22 19:34, musika wrote:

> On 24/09/2022 05:38, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> Den 23.09.2022 kl. 22.40 skrev Transition Zone:
>>

>>> 1) Nudity is necessary for porn.
>>> 2) Ask any woman if intentional nudity is porn? They'll say yes.
>>

>> No, they won't. In Denmark it is legal to bathe in the nude, both sun-
>> and waterbathing, at any beach in the country. Those who do so, are
>> not performing porn. We also have nudist camps or naturalist camps
>

> ObAUE - naturist

I was naked in the shower this morning. Make of that what you will.

It's been quite a few years since I was last naked on a beach. Beaches
lost their attraction for me after I almost drowned.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Peter T. Daniels]

They're not forbidden -- but the traditional "naked baby lying on
a bearskin rug" is, also vids of Japanese babies having a bath.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Mae West went to jail (briefly) after her Broadway play *Sex* was
shut down as pornographic. There were probably no naked ladies
in it, but its purpose was definitely to titillate and more.

[Ken Blake]

Oddly, even though I can't swim and never go into the water, I like
beaches.

[Sam Plusnet]

Even when I first saw a Mae West film[1] I thought she portrayed a
parody of flirting - and certainly didn't see it as pornographic (At
that age I would have been very interested if it had been even slightly
pornographic).
I don't think anyone would think of flirting as pornographic.

[1] Probably in the early 1960s - which were not at all 'Swinging' where
I lived.

[Sam Plusnet]

Is this some new health conscious form of pornography?

"To watch the film you must achieve at least 12 mph on this static
bicycle - 18 mph during the really steamy scenes."

[Sam Plusnet]

Is being 'a harmless drudge' a form of prostitution?

[bil...@shaw.ca]

Mae West did more than flirt. She dispensed sexual innuendo. But I agree
that's not pornographic. The graphic part is missing.

bill

[Peter Moylan]

On 26/09/22 03:38, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> [1] Probably in the early 1960s - which were not at all 'Swinging'
> where I lived.

Because they weren't the Sixties. The Sixties didn't start until about 1968.

[Peter Moylan]

Yes, that's a valid distinction. I like walking on beaches, or just
watching the scenery. For that matter, I'm happy to swim in places like
the Coral Sea that don't have big waves, or even to go snorkelling (only
slightly nervously) in places with no land in sight. But I've stopped
going out to catch the waves.

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 6:29:47 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 26/09/22 03:38, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
> > [1] Probably in the early 1960s - which were not at all 'Swinging'
> > where I lived.
> Because they weren't the Sixties. The Sixties didn't start until about 1968.

My Sixties began in the summer of 1966, the year I finished high school in the
spring, spent six weeks away from home at the Banff School of Fine Arts,
as it was called then, started university in the fall, learned to play bridge, pool
and poker, and got a steady girlfriend. All good.

bill

[Hibou]

They do indeed, but I think it's only a partial truth. Within certain
limits, size is not the most important variable in the Equation of Pleasure.

[GordonD]

On 25/09/2022 11:41, Paul Carmichael wrote:

As long as his wife or servant doesn't read it.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

[Peter T. Daniels]

She was doing it on stage and later on film. That''s _totally_ visual!

Have you ever seen *Gypsy*? Or, for that matter, a movie of Gypsy
Rose Lee doing her act? She never actually took off more than a
glove or two, and drove men crazy!

I saw Sally Rand (whose Fan Dance was the hit of the 1933 Chicago
World's Fair) do her act, and chat for about an hour with the audience
afterward, not long before she left this earth in 1979. She did wear a
body stocking (I don't know whether she'd done so more than 40 years
earlier), but you couldn't actually see anything because the very heavy
fans were quite big and skillfully manipulated (you wouldn't want to
arm-wrestle her). Again, her act was incredibly lascivious in its day.
But Chicago was "the town that Billy Sunday could not shut down."

[Ken Blake]

Is that a pistol in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?

[Sam Plusnet]

Size does matter - see:

"It's a great big shame
And if she belonged to me
I'd let her know who's who
Nagging at a fellow that is six foot three
And her not four feet two."

[lar3ryca]

A fellow meets a friend who is under 4 ft. tall, and asks him how things
are with his 6 ft. tall girlfriend.

"Not too good", says the little guy.
"What's wrong?"

"Well, when we're nose to nose, my toes are in.
When we're toes to toes, my nose is in.
And when I'm in, I have nobody to talk to."


--
I sneezed a sneeze into the air.
It fell to earth, I know not where,
But hard and cold were the looks of those.
In whose vicinity I snoze.

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-09-26 11:34, Sam Plusnet wrote:

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 10:38:34 AM UTC-7, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2022 21:26:32 +1000, Peter Moylan
> >

> >It's been quite a few years since I was last naked on a beach. Beaches
> >lost their attraction for me after I almost drowned.

> Oddly, even though I can't swim and never go into the water, I like
> beaches.

Absent a tsunami, very few people drown on beaches.

bill

[Peter Moylan]

On 27/09/22 05:57, lar3ryca wrote:
>
> A fellow meets a friend who is under 4 ft. tall, and asks him how things
> are with his 6 ft. tall girlfriend.
>
> "Not too good", says the little guy.
> "What's wrong?"
>
> "Well, when we're nose to nose, my toes are in.
> When we're toes to toes, my nose is in.
> And when I'm in, I have nobody to talk to."

A midget was expelled from a nudist camp. He kept sticking his nose into
other people's business.

[Paul Wolff]

On Mon, 26 Sep 2022, at 11:29:42, Peter Moylan posted:

>On 26/09/22 03:38, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>> [1] Probably in the early 1960s - which were not at all 'Swinging'
>> where I lived.
>
>Because they weren't the Sixties. The Sixties didn't start until about 1968.
>

Oh, what a shame. 66-67 were pretty good and changed my life for ever,
all the same.
--
Paul

[Quinn C]

* Paul Wolff:

Mine, too, certainly. It's when I learned to talk.

My mother said that I was a late talker, so that she worried sometimes,
but I started talking a lot more once I could form proper sentences.
Maybe I was just embarrassed of making those babyish one- or two-word
utterances.

--
... one has to question science with those economy people
[...] thinking is often blocked by an ideological super-
structure [...] It's in many aspects more a religion than
a science. -- Heiner Flassbeck, famous economist

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 8:02:01 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Paul Wolff:
> > On Mon, 26 Sep 2022, at 11:29:42, Peter Moylan posted:
> >>On 26/09/22 03:38, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> >>> [1] Probably in the early 1960s - which were not at all 'Swinging'
> >>> where I lived.
> >>Because they weren't the Sixties. The Sixties didn't start until about 1968.
> > Oh, what a shame. 66-67 were pretty good and changed my life for ever,
> > all the same.
> Mine, too, certainly. It's when I learned to talk.
>
> My mother said that I was a late talker, so that she worried sometimes,
> but I started talking a lot more once I could form proper sentences.
> Maybe I was just embarrassed of making those babyish one- or two-word
> utterances.

I wonder why this is called "the German baby joke" (the whole first
page of Google hits for the punch line refer to it that way). I've seen
it describing John Stuart Mill.

https://jokes.one/joke/the-german-baby-joke

[bruce bowser]

"over 100 people die each year due to rip currents in the U.S."
-- https://www.weather.gov/wrn/spring2017-rip-currents

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

Only in a German household could everything be adequate for 3 years
straight?

A neighbor of mine spoke his first ever words when his grandma asked him
to get her glasses: "Leave me alone!" ("Laß mir meine Ruhe!")
Or so the family lore goes.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Bill Boei]

Rip currents/tides happen in the water, not on the beach.

bill

[Peter Moylan]

It's slightly higher than that in Australia, despite our lower
population. Some reports I've seen, though, suggest that tourists
account for a surprisingly high proportion of the drownings. I suspect
that that's because tourists are less able to spot rips, and more likely
to swim in places where there are no lifeguards.

(My own near-drowning happened because there are no lifesaver patrols on
nude beaches. What saved me was that I was spotted by a board rider on
the next beach over.)

Having said that, I'll also acknowledge Bill's point that none of these
drownings occur in the sand.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 28.09.2022 kl. 02.47 skrev Bill Boei:

>> "over 100 people die each year due to rip currents in the U.S."
>> -- https://www.weather.gov/wrn/spring2017-rip-currents

> Rip currents/tides happen in the water, not on the beach.

And tsunamies happen in the water and have nothing to do with the beach?

--
Bertel

[J. J. Lodder]

Yes, and Albert Einstein idem, and no doubt others.
And idem with soup instead of apple pie. Make up your own.

While there is no disagreement about Einstein being late in speaking
there are various anecdotes around
about what his first words are supposed to have been.

The one I liked best is: 'Alles ist gut wie es ist!'

Jan

[Peter Moylan]

On 28/09/22 19:57, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> While there is no disagreement about Einstein being late in speaking
> there are various anecdotes around
> about what his first words are supposed to have been.
>
> The one I liked best is: 'Alles ist gut wie es ist!'

Wasn't that Pangloss?

[CDB]

On 9/27/2022 7:11 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels:
>> Quinn C wrote:
>>> Paul Wolff:
>>>> Peter Moylan posted:

>>>>> Sam Plusnet wrote:

>>>>>> [1] Probably in the early 1960s - which were not at all
>>>>>> 'Swinging' where I lived.
>>>>> Because they weren't the Sixties. The Sixties didn't start
>>>>> until about 1968.
>>>> Oh, what a shame. 66-67 were pretty good and changed my life
>>>> for ever, all the same.
>>> Mine, too, certainly. It's when I learned to talk.

>>> My mother said that I was a late talker, so that she worried
>>> sometimes, but I started talking a lot more once I could form
>>> proper sentences. Maybe I was just embarrassed of making those
>>> babyish one- or two-word utterances.

>> I wonder why this is called "the German baby joke" (the whole
>> first page of Google hits for the punch line refer to it that way).
>> I've seen it describing John Stuart Mill.

>> https://jokes.one/joke/the-german-baby-joke

> Only in a German household could everything be adequate for 3 years
> straight?

> A neighbor of mine spoke his first ever words when his grandma asked
> him to get her glasses: "Leave me alone!" ("Laß mir meine Ruhe!") Or
> so the family lore goes.

Do German children dutzen their grannies? In French, the polite "vous"
used to be de rigueur.

--
Although de rigueur ain't what it used to be.

[Silvano]

CDB hat am 28.09.2022 um 14:13 geschrieben:

Even for French children uttering their very first words?

[Quinn C]

* CDB:

I don't know if anyone in German-speaking areas ever picked up that
habit, but if so, probably only higher social ranks.

Certainly in my generation - and the neighbor in question was a few
years younger than me - we used "Du" towards any relative, even those we
only saw at large gatherings once a year or less, and most certainly a
granny who lives in the house.

I'm regularly pointing out to other German speakers that in the 33 years
I lived in Germany, I never used "Sie" all that much, because of course
it was "Du" to other children, to other university students (since 1968,
and in our time even to young assistants and such, and in the small
university town where I lived, that was often extended to people who
look like they might be students), to people in the same club, choir
etc., and then "Du" to colleagues (up to the CEO) at work because it was
an IT company.

[Janet]

In article <7b242d70-4633-4488-ba1d-
bdd628...@googlegroups.com>, bb...@shaw.ca says...

Listen to the voice of raisin.

Janet

[Ken Blake]

They also have nothing to do with the beachies.

[CDB]

On 9/28/2022 8:28 AM, Silvano wrote:
> CDB hat geschrieben:

>> Quinn C wrote:

>>> A neighbor of mine spoke his first ever words when his grandma
>>> asked him to get her glasses: "Leave me alone!" ("Laß mir meine
>>> Ruhe!") Or so the family lore goes.

>> Do German children dutzen their grannies? In French, the polite
>> "vous" used to be de rigueur.

> Even for French children uttering their very first words?

One suspects him of muttering curses uder his breath for a long time
before that.

[CDB]

On 9/28/2022 9:16 AM, Quinn C wrote:
> CDB:

Thank you. At my age, I'm probably allowed to be frightfully old-fashioned.

--
When I wanna be.

[bruce bowser]

Wow. I'm sure you must have been used to various further vernacular from certain German towns to towns on into Eastern Holland or Southern Denmark. Since each of these town pride themselves so much on their own distinctions from their regions.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 9:16:15 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:

> I'm regularly pointing out to other German speakers that in the 33 years
> I lived in Germany, I never used "Sie" all that much, because of course

"I regularly point out"
"I didn't use 'Sie' all that much"

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 9:16:15 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>
>> I'm regularly pointing out to other German speakers that in the 33 years
>> I lived in Germany, I never used "Sie" all that much, because of course
>
> "I regularly point out"

I'm sure I did intend to express something by using the progressive
form, but I can't put it in words spontaneously, and the difference
isn't all that big, but this:

> "I didn't use 'Sie' all that much"

certainly doesn't reflect what I wanted to express. That sounds like a
decision I took in a few cases rather than an experience that permeated
and colored my life. I guess "I didn't ever" would mostly get it back,
although I still feel that "never" is a stronger word. Even Poe's poem
would lose something if it was "not evermore".

[Sam Plusnet]

On 28/09/2022 12:48, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 28/09/22 19:57, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
>> While there is no disagreement about Einstein being late in speaking
>> there are various anecdotes around
>> about what his first words are supposed to have been.
>>
>> The one I liked best is: 'Alles ist gut wie es ist!'
>
> Wasn't that Pangloss?
>

I've come across that on a paint chart.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 12:39:09 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 9:16:15 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:

> >> I'm regularly pointing out to other German speakers that in the 33 years
> >> I lived in Germany, I never used "Sie" all that much, because of course
> > "I regularly point out"
>
> I'm sure I did intend to express something by using the progressive
> form, but I can't put it in words spontaneously, and the difference
> isn't all that big, but this:

The progressive simply isn't used that way. It does feel like a German-
accent thing, but I can't think why. They probably drill you in some use
of the -ing form, and it gets overgeneralized, or something.

> > "I didn't use 'Sie' all that much"
>
> certainly doesn't reflect what I wanted to express. That sounds like a
> decision I took in a few cases rather than an experience that permeated
> and colored my life. I guess "I didn't ever" would mostly get it back,
> although I still feel that "never" is a stronger word. Even Poe's poem
> would lose something if it was "not evermore".

"Never" and "not all that much" are simply not compatible.

"Not all that much" means 'a bit'. I.e., not never.

[J. J. Lodder]

Right. People don't drown in the Sahara either.
There just is less opportunity to try...

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 28/09/22 19:57, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > While there is no disagreement about Einstein being late in speaking
> > there are various anecdotes around
> > about what his first words are supposed to have been.
> >
> > The one I liked best is: 'Alles ist gut wie es ist!'
>
> Wasn't that Pangloss?

No. Pangloss insists that it can't be any better,

Jan

[Paul Wolff]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, at 18:20:37, Sam Plusnet posted:

Do you by any chance have a brother, Matt Plusnet?
--
Paul

[Paul Wolff]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, at 10:56:53, CDB posted:

Just remembered - when I was just out of school, before university, I
spent a couple of months with a German family - widowed mother, mother's
sister, mother's son of 16 to whom I was supposed to speak English to
help with colloquialisms as well as the basics. Mother was a rural GP
(Ärztin). My point: the two older women invariably addressed me as Herr
Wolff, and I don't actually remember the pronoun but it must have been
Sie, if they made me a Herr, when I was still a boy in my own mind. It
was too formal for me and felt wrong. (Early 1960s.)
--
Paul

[Paul Wolff]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, at 21:51:09, J. J. Lodder posted:

I'm told the water's there all right, and you just need to dig deep
enough. The trouble is, no matter how fast you dig, the sand keeps
trickling back into the hole.

It reminds me of that song about the camel and the sphinx.
--
Paul

[Snidely]

Bill Boei suggested that ...

Not to mention that a few more than 100 people visit US beaches.

/dps


--
I have always been glad we weren't killed that night. I do not know
any particular reason, but I have always been glad.
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain

[Quinn C]

* CDB:

I don't know if it's much different in French, but the "Du"/"Sie"
distinction is primarily about distance, and more indirectly about
respect ("polite" tends to mix up these two aspects.)

Simplifying, of course, but to me, using "Sie" signifies either that we
have no reason to be buddies, because we have nothing in common (like
being schoolmates, colleagues, members of the same club) - I of course
used "Sie" in transient relations like meeting someone at a bus stop or
staff-customer interactions - or that we can't be buddies, because we're
in a kind of relationship that would make that awkward, e.g. teacher and
student.

One of the weirder things to me in old movies is when people flirt with
each other while still using "Sie" (though it likely happened with my
parents.) There are multiple things coming together in this:

- As mentioned, with most people (at least my age) I used "Du" from the
start anyway
- I'm more comfortable being friends before flirting seriously
- I always thought the idea silly that we can't be buddies because we're
of a different (assigned/perceived) gender

The latter is very generational. In my parents' generation, it may still
have been considered suspicious for a married person to be on a "Du"
basis with a member of the opposite sex other than your spouse. I was
maybe a bit ahead of the curve, but it should be the norm with young
people now that you can have friends of any gender. Of course in my case
there was the bit that I didn't really connect with my assigned gender.

[Quinn C]

No, the "never" in my sentence signified "at no point in my life".

Traditionally, when you became an adult, you changed from addressing
most of your peers by "Du" to addressing most of your peers as "Sie", at
least in a middle class or higher social setting, but I never reached
such a point.

[Quinn C]

* Paul Wolff:

Most of our high school teachers changed to "Sie" and "Herr/Frau" when
we reached grade 11 ("secondary school phase II"). There were a few
young ones who suggested a mutual "Du", but that felt awkward for most
of us.

The kind of asymmetric relationship where the older person uses "Du" and
the younger person "Sie" had become mostly inacceptable between adults
in my generation (we're democratic now!), and the changeover to be
addressed as adult was usually in the 16-18 age range.

[Paul Wolff]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, at 21:28:46, Quinn C posted:
>* Paul Wolff:

>
>> Just remembered - when I was just out of school, before university, I
>> spent a couple of months with a German family - widowed mother, mother's
>> sister, mother's son of 16 to whom I was supposed to speak English to
>> help with colloquialisms as well as the basics. Mother was a rural GP
>> (Ärztin). My point: the two older women invariably addressed me as Herr
>> Wolff, and I don't actually remember the pronoun but it must have been
>> Sie, if they made me a Herr, when I was still a boy in my own mind. It
>> was too formal for me and felt wrong. (Early 1960s.)
>
>Most of our high school teachers changed to "Sie" and "Herr/Frau" when
>we reached grade 11 ("secondary school phase II"). There were a few
>young ones who suggested a mutual "Du", but that felt awkward for most
>of us.
>
>The kind of asymmetric relationship where the older person uses "Du" and
>the younger person "Sie" had become mostly inacceptable between adults
>in my generation (we're democratic now!), and the changeover to be
>addressed as adult was usually in the 16-18 age range.
>

Thank you for that, and for your parallel information in other posts.
Clearly, my experience wasn't nearly as odd as I thought at the time.
--
Paul

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 9:16:24 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 12:39:09 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> >> * Peter T. Daniels:
> >>> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 9:16:15 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:

> >>>> I'm regularly pointing out to other German speakers that in the 33 years
> >>>> I lived in Germany, I never used "Sie" all that much, because of course
> >>> "I regularly point out"
> >> I'm sure I did intend to express something by using the progressive
> >> form, but I can't put it in words spontaneously, and the difference
> >> isn't all that big, but this:
> > The progressive simply isn't used that way. It does feel like a German-
> > accent thing, but I can't think why. They probably drill you in some use
> > of the -ing form, and it gets overgeneralized, or something.
> >>> "I didn't use 'Sie' all that much"
> >> certainly doesn't reflect what I wanted to express. That sounds like a
> >> decision I took in a few cases rather than an experience that permeated
> >> and colored my life. I guess "I didn't ever" would mostly get it back,
> >> although I still feel that "never" is a stronger word. Even Poe's poem
> >> would lose something if it was "not evermore".
> > "Never" and "not all that much" are simply not compatible.
> > "Not all that much" means 'a bit'. I.e., not never.
>
> No, the "never" in my sentence signified "at no point in my life".

Still incompatible with "not all that much."

> Traditionally, when you became an adult, you changed from addressing
> most of your peers by "Du" to addressing most of your peers as "Sie", at
> least in a middle class or higher social setting, but I never reached
> such a point.

See? That's a proper use of "never."

[CDB]

Young people in Quebec probably tutoyer everybody (but IANAYP or IQ).
OTOH, I was watching a movie version of Michel Tremblay's novel _C'tà
ton tour, Laura Cadieux_, in which a group of lower-middle-class ladies
all vouvoyered each other and addressed each other as (frex) "Mme Cadieux".

A question of courteous refinement, I gather, and probably accurate.
Tremblay has a great way with dialogue.

[Sam Plusnet]

One of those Knights in White Satin?
(No.)

--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

I suppose rip currents do happen in the water, but they wouldn't happen
at all if there were no beach present.

--
Sam Plusnet

[bruce bowser]

> Young people in Quebec probably tutoyer everybody.

Is 'tu' viewed the same way as 'du' in Brussels or in the French-German border towns like Saarbrücken or Schengen.

[CDB]

On 10/1/2022 2:17 PM, bruce bowser wrote:
> CDB wrote:
>> Quinn C wrote:
>>> CDB:

[modern use of 2p pronouns]

>>> I don't know if it's much different in French, but the
>>> "Du"/"Sie" distinction is primarily about distance, and more
>>> indirectly about respect ("polite" tends to mix up these two
>>> aspects.)

>> Young people in Quebec probably tutoyer everybody.

> Is 'tu' viewed the same way as 'du' in Brussels or in the
> French-German border towns like Saarbrücken or Schengen.

Dunno. You wold need a speaker of both French and Dutch for that.

[bruce bowser]

In Brussels?