Le Carré: Genghis Khan

[Leif Ohlsson]

Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to the right of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first time in the late seventies in Sweden (where I live).
The novel by John le Carré was published 1974.
My question is: did le Carré invent the expression, or has it been around even before -74. If so, who coined the phrase?

Second question: There's a sentence in the novel that I don't quite understand:
"..the late Mrs. Loveday, who had a persian lamb-coat and stood in for junior divinity until her cheques bounced". What does it mean; "stood in for junior divinity"? (she was a teacher).

Grateful for any suggestions.
Leif, Stockholm

[Nick Spalding]

Leif Ohlsson wrote, in
<3bcce4c1-a97c-4dcc...@googlegroups.com>
on Sun, 10 Mar 2013 13:55:16 -0700 (PDT):

She sometimes took classes in junior divinity when the regular teacher
was not available.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

[Leslie Danks]

Leif Ohlsson wrote:

> Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to the right of
> Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first time in the late
> seventies in Sweden (where I live). The novel by John le Carré was
> published 1974. My question is: did le Carré invent the expression, or has
> it been around even before -74. If so, who coined the phrase?

Using Google Books advanced search, the earliest example I came up with was
this, which is clearly a review of a play:

Time - Band 73,Teil 1 - Seite 78

"Van Heflin is an ingratiatingly drawly but volcani' cally eruptive goodguy,
and Larry Gates makes an icy fork-tongued reptile of the man whose politics
are somewhat to the right of Genghis Khan. But since the play is rigged for
the triumph of .."

Volume 73 of Time Magazine dates from 1959

<http://www.google.at/search?lr=lang_en&hl=de&tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=%22to+the+
right+of+Genghis+Khan%22&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_min:01.01.1950,cd_max:31.12.1960&
num=10>

> Second question: There's a sentence in the novel that I don't quite
> understand: "..the late Mrs. Loveday, who had a persian lamb-coat and
> stood in for junior divinity until her cheques bounced". What does it
> mean; "stood in for junior divinity"? (she was a teacher).

Standing in for someone means taking their place if they are unable to
appear for whatever reason (illness, drunkenness, imprisonment, etc.) The
sentence means that Mrs. Loveday taught the junior divinity classes when the
regular teacher was away. A "stand-in" is someone who stands in.

--
Les

[James Hogg]

And "divinity" might not be well known to Swedish speakers as the name
of a school subject known by various other names, such as "religious
studies".

--
James

[Mike L]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 13:55:16 -0700 (PDT), Leif Ohlsson
<leif.o...@expressen.se> wrote:

>Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to the right of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first time in the late seventies in Sweden (where I live).
>The novel by John le Carré was published 1974.
>My question is: did le Carré invent the expression, or has it been around even before -74. If so, who coined the phrase?

I have the impression that I've known it since the '60s; but we'd
probably need to search newspapers to get an accurate estimate.

>
>Second question: There's a sentence in the novel that I don't quite understand:
>"..the late Mrs. Loveday, who had a persian lamb-coat and stood in for junior divinity until her cheques bounced". What does it mean; "stood in for junior divinity"? (she was a teacher).
>

Either she was a part-time teacher who came in only to teach religious
studies to younger pupils, or she was not an RE teacher, but acted as
a substitute teacher for the purpose.

The subject in British schools used to be narrowly Christian, and was
generally known either as "Divinity" or "Scripture". A few
old-fashioned schools still, I believe, use the term "Humanity" for
Latin lessons. Even more amusing, to me, are those schools which teach
religious studies in the Humanities Department.

--
Mike.

[Leif Ohlsson]

Wonderful,
thank you all very much!

And you're absolutely right, James: divinity does not connect with schools in my swedish brain. We had "Christianity" and, later on, "Religion".

[Iain Archer]

James Hogg wrote on Sun, 10 Mar 2013

I once entered a competition and won the school divinity prize. They
never told me how long the divinity lasted.
--
Iain Archer

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 23:23:17 +0000, Iain Archer <m...@privacy.net>
wrote:

Oh, fudge.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[Robert Bannister]

I always got "Could try harder" in Div.

--
Robert Bannister

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 13:55:16 -0700 (PDT), Leif Ohlsson
<leif.o...@expressen.se> wrote:

Her lambs wore coats imported from Persia?


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <khiv3j$fnl$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,

Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at> wrote:
>Standing in for someone means taking their place if they are unable to
>appear for whatever reason (illness, drunkenness, imprisonment, etc.) The
>sentence means that Mrs. Loveday taught the junior divinity classes when the
>regular teacher was away.

As a name for a subject, "divinity" is, I suspect familiar to most
Americans only in the name of Harvard Divinity School and any
similarly-named institutions as may exist. It sounds odd: like they
are teaching students how to be divine, rather than how to preach
about it. (HDS is officially non-denominational, but it was at the
center of the Unitarians' break from Congregationalism.)

Divinity is also the name of a confection popular in the South. I've
never had it, but I've seen it made on TV.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Sam Plusnet]

In article <9h1qj8hhc6ctvfv3h...@4ax.com>, n...@yahoo.co.uk
says...

I do appreciate that this is quite wrong, but taken out of context, and
remembering that this was a boys' school, I wondered if Mrs Loveday was
so attractive that the boys considered her to be near divine - until she
was found to have feet of clay.

--
Sam

[Jerry Friedman]

On Mar 10, 7:22 pm, woll...@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
> In article <khiv3j$fn...@speranza.aioe.org>,

> Leslie Danks  <leslie.da...@aon.at> wrote:
>
> >Standing in for someone means taking their place if they are unable to
> >appear for whatever reason (illness, drunkenness, imprisonment, etc.) The
> >sentence means that Mrs. Loveday taught the junior divinity classes when the
> >regular teacher was away.
>
> As a name for a subject, "divinity" is, I suspect familiar to most
> Americans only in the name of Harvard Divinity School and any
> similarly-named institutions as may exist.

...

Or in the "D. D." after a minister's name. I don't associate it with
any particular school, and a few minutes ago I wouldn't have been able
to say whether Harvard had a divinity school or not.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

Incidentally, I think that use of "took" would confuse a lot of
Americans for a moment. People in the ed biz sometimes use it to each
other ("I need someone to take that class") but otherwise "take a
class" is what the students do, in my experience. Or the pupils, as
you would say.

And why does the school care whether her checks bounced? She wasn't
writing checks to the school, was she?

--
Jerry Friedman

[James Hogg]

Divinity in my school was taught by the reverend headmaster, P. H.
Wogers, whose claim to fame was that he had edited a book entitled "A
Guide to Divinity Teaching". He once confided in the class about his
doubts as a young man about to embark on a teaching career. He wondered
whether it was wise to combine the roles of priest and teacher. He had
discussed this with an older colleague who assured him that it was all
right, in the words: "In fact, I look forward to the day when all
teachers are ordained clergymen."

Having related this anecdote, our headmaster looked around the classroom
to see the reaction and observed with a chuckle that I had a look of
"absolute howwor" on my face.

--
James

[R H Draney]

Sam Plusnet filted:

>
>> On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 13:55:16 -0700 (PDT), Leif Ohlsson
>> <leif.o...@expressen.se> wrote:
>> >
>>>Second question: There's a sentence in the novel that I don't quite understand:
>>>"..the late Mrs. Loveday, who had a persian lamb-coat and stood in for junior
>>divinity until her cheques bounced". What does it mean; "stood in for junior
>>divinity"? (she was a teacher).
>

>I do appreciate that this is quite wrong, but taken out of context, and
>remembering that this was a boys' school, I wondered if Mrs Loveday was
>so attractive that the boys considered her to be near divine - until she
>was found to have feet of clay.

And cheques of rubber....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[R H Draney]

Steve Hayes filted:

>
>On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 13:55:16 -0700 (PDT), Leif Ohlsson
><leif.o...@expressen.se> wrote:
>>
>>"..the late Mrs. Loveday, who had a persian lamb-coat
>

>Her lambs wore coats imported from Persia?

It made the children laugh and play....r

[Dr Nick]

wol...@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) writes:

> In article <khiv3j$fnl$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
> Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at> wrote:
>>Standing in for someone means taking their place if they are unable to
>>appear for whatever reason (illness, drunkenness, imprisonment, etc.) The
>>sentence means that Mrs. Loveday taught the junior divinity classes when the
>>regular teacher was away.
>
> As a name for a subject, "divinity" is, I suspect familiar to most
> Americans only in the name of Harvard Divinity School and any
> similarly-named institutions as may exist. It sounds odd: like they
> are teaching students how to be divine, rather than how to preach
> about it. (HDS is officially non-denominational, but it was at the
> center of the Unitarians' break from Congregationalism.)

Well if they study it long enough they'd become devines.

It was divinity early in my school career but became "RE" later, and is
RE now as far as I can tell.

[Dr Nick]

Dr Nick <nosp...@temporary-address.org.uk> writes:

> wol...@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) writes:
>
>> In article <khiv3j$fnl$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
>> Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at> wrote:
>>>Standing in for someone means taking their place if they are unable to
>>>appear for whatever reason (illness, drunkenness, imprisonment, etc.) The
>>>sentence means that Mrs. Loveday taught the junior divinity classes when the
>>>regular teacher was away.
>>
>> As a name for a subject, "divinity" is, I suspect familiar to most
>> Americans only in the name of Harvard Divinity School and any
>> similarly-named institutions as may exist. It sounds odd: like they
>> are teaching students how to be divine, rather than how to preach
>> about it. (HDS is officially non-denominational, but it was at the
>> center of the Unitarians' break from Congregationalism.)
>
> Well if they study it long enough they'd become devines.

That should have been divines. Of course.

I think I'll give my fingers a rest and see if they start typing what I
tell them.

[the Omrud]

On 11/03/2013 05:59, James Hogg wrote:

> Divinity in my school was taught by the reverend headmaster, P. H.
> Wogers, whose claim to fame was that he had edited a book entitled "A
> Guide to Divinity Teaching". He once confided in the class about his
> doubts as a young man about to embark on a teaching career. He wondered
> whether it was wise to combine the roles of priest and teacher. He had
> discussed this with an older colleague who assured him that it was all
> right, in the words: "In fact, I look forward to the day when all
> teachers are ordained clergymen."
>
> Having related this anecdote, our headmaster looked around the classroom
> to see the reaction and observed with a chuckle that I had a look of
> "absolute howwor" on my face.

Daughter was given a C for her mock GCSE Religious Eduction exam
because, she claimed, the teacher marked down atheists. Probably right
- she got an A at the public exam, presumably for answering the
questions correctly.

--
David

[the Omrud]

It's bad form to issue dud cheques. At one time, a private school might
not want to be associated with a person who couldn't pay her bills.

--
David

[the Omrud]

It was RI in my school in 1967 - Religious Instruction. But what we got
in that lesson was actually RE. Nobody tried to Instruct us at all.

--
David

[Cheryl]

On 2013-03-10 6:25 PM, Leif Ohlsson wrote:
> Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to the right of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first time in the late seventies in Sweden (where I live).
> The novel by John le Carré was published 1974.
> My question is: did le Carré invent the expression, or has it been around even before -74. If so, who coined the phrase?

I don't know who coined it, but the phrase "to the right of <famous
name> " (and, for that matter, "to the left of <famous name>) are fairly
common. I think I've heard "to the right of Attila the Hun" more often
than "to the irght of Genghis Khan", though.

> Second question: There's a sentence in the novel that I don't quite understand:
> "..the late Mrs. Loveday, who had a persian lamb-coat and stood in for junior divinity until her cheques bounced". What does it mean; "stood in for junior divinity"? (she was a teacher).

As others have said, she filled in for the religious studies teacher.


--
Cheryl

[Cheryl]

Perhaps divinity teachers are supposed to be honest (assuming that the
bad cheques were the result of some fraud) or at least well-organized
financially?


--
Cheryl

[Iain Archer]

Robert Bannister wrote on Mon, 11 Mar 2013

>On 11/03/13 7:23 AM, Iain Archer wrote:
>> James Hogg wrote on Sun, 10 Mar 2013

>>> And "divinity" might not be well known to Swedish speakers as the name
>>> of a school subject known by various other names, such as "religious
>>> studies".
>>>
>> I once entered a competition and won the school divinity prize. They
>> never told me how long the divinity lasted.
>
>I always got "Could try harder" in Div.
>

That's typical of more minor divinities than is generally realised. I
failed my own Religious Knowledge O-level.
--
Iain Archer

[bert]

On Sunday, 10 March 2013 22:24:38 UTC, Mike L wrote:
> A few old-fashioned schools still, I believe,
> use the term "Humanity" for Latin lessons.

At Glasgow University, the lintel over the doorway to the
Latin department is incised with the word "HUMANITIES".
This would have been in 1870.
--

[Tim McDaniel]

In article <4a41e15a-8996-4e07...@n2g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,

Indeed, that use of "took" confused me mightily because I'd never
heard of the "in the ed biz" meaning before.

>And why does the school care whether her checks bounced? She wasn't
>writing checks to the school, was she?

I interpreted it as "until the cheques that they paid her bounced",
equivalent to "... until her PAY-cheques bounced" or "... until THEIR
cheques bounced". But by calling them "her cheques", it would
emphasize that they were things in her possession that turned out to
be worthless and therefore emphasizing her point of view. But I
certainly can't assert that my interpretation must be the only one: is
the school and its finances otherwise mentioned?

Alternately, the "Persian lamb-coat" might instead be an indication of
her extravigance (I'm just assuming that mentioning that means that
it's expensive as opposed to a mere descriptive like "the brown
checked coat"), so she had indeed run thru her money. I have an idea
that bankruptcy was considered to be moral wickedness (and perhaps
some still view it that way); I have a dim notion that bankrupts had
(have?) some disabilities in the law in parts of the US, like not
being allowed to serve on juries. Sorry I can't take the time to
research this; I throw it out off the top of my head in case others
can shoot it down or confirm.

--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

[CDB]

On 10/03/2013 9:25 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> Leif Ohlsson <leif.o...@expressen.se> wrote:

>> Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to the
>> right of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first time in
>> the late seventies in Sweden (where I live). The novel by John le
>> Carré was published 1974. My question is: did le Carré invent the
>> expression, or has it been around even before -74. If so, who
>> coined the phrase?

>> Second question: There's a sentence in the novel that I don't quite
>> understand: "..the late Mrs. Loveday, who had a persian lamb-coat
>> and stood in for junior divinity until her cheques bounced". What
>> does it mean; "stood in for junior divinity"? (she was a teacher).

> Her lambs wore coats imported from Persia?

Good question. Leif, is "Persian lamb-coat" what was in the novel? It
should be Persian-lamb coat, if there is a hyphen; usually the phrase is
written without one.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 06:59:45 +0100, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
wrote:

When I was at school (in England) we attended Scripture classes. I think
that the name was changed to Religious Education some years later. In
turn that became Religious Studies. I think that the name "Religious
Education" was felt to carry an undercurrent of religious
indoctrination. "Studies" perhaps seems more objective.

Scripture lessons taught the Christian Bible.

Religious Studies covers a much wider field.

A Level Religious Studies (kids aged 16 to 18):
http://www.edexcel.com/quals/gce/gce08/rs/Pages/default.aspx

A Level Religious Studies

Designed to encourage an interest in and enthusiasm for a rigorous
study of religion, our A Level Religious Studies specification will
enable students to develop an insight into areas of knowledge,
belief and thought central to an understanding of the modern world.
Through a study of philosophy, ethics and the world's major
religions, students will gain a range of knowledge and skills that
will help them make sense of contemporary events.

Edexcel is a national examinations body.
http://www.edexcel.com/Aboutus/who-we-are/Pages/Whoweare.aspx

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 21:48:29 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Mar 10, 3:33�pm, Nick Spalding <spald...@iol.ie> wrote:
>> Leif Ohlsson wrote, in
>> <3bcce4c1-a97c-4dcc...@googlegroups.com>
>> �on Sun, 10 Mar 2013 13:55:16 -0700 (PDT):
>>
>> > Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to the right of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first time in the late seventies in Sweden (where I live).

>> > The novel by John le Carr� was published 1974.
>> > My question is: did le Carr� invent the expression, or has it been around even before -74. If so, who coined the phrase?

>>
>> > Second question: There's a sentence in the novel that I don't quite understand:
>> > "..the late Mrs. Loveday, who had a persian lamb-coat and stood in for junior divinity until her cheques bounced". What does it mean; "stood in for junior divinity"? (she was a teacher).
>>
>> > Grateful for any suggestions.
>>
>> She sometimes took classes in junior divinity when the regular teacher
>> was not available.
>
>Incidentally, I think that use of "took" would confuse a lot of
>Americans for a moment.

It doesn't confuse me at all. It's a phrasing that I would use
without a thought. However, you know from my posting history that I
am one of the sloppier users of our language in our group.

I took classes in courses other than business subjects when I was an
undergraduate. <sounds right to me.

[Cheryl]

On 2013-03-11 10:46 AM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 06:59:45 +0100, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Iain Archer wrote:
>>> James Hogg wrote on Sun, 10 Mar 2013
>>>> Nick Spalding wrote:
>>>>> Leif Ohlsson wrote, in
>>>>> <3bcce4c1-a97c-4dcc...@googlegroups.com> on Sun,
>>>>> 10 Mar 2013 13:55:16 -0700 (PDT):
>>>>>
>>>>>> Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to
>>>>>> the right of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first
>>>>>> time in the late seventies in Sweden (where I live). The novel

>>>>>> by John le Carr� was published 1974. My question is: did le
>>>>>> Carr� invent the expression, or has it been around even before

Names of courses change with the educational fashion, although they may
start off making useful distinction.

I was rather amused when I found out that the Education Act in power at
the time in my home province required that two subjects be taught -
physical education and religion. Presumably the fact that students were
eventually supposed to pass provincial exams in subjects such as English
Language, English Literature, Mathematics etc. covered everything else.
We rarely had 'phys ed' (to my great delight) and never studied
religion. I attended a small 'everyone but the Roman Catholics' school,
and since the various categories of Protestants who represented the
student body hadn't agreed on a common religious education curriculum at
that time, we didn't have one. We did get each Protestant cleric, in
strict rotation, to say a prayer at the beginning of each assembly, but
that was about it. Our parents could send us to Sunday School or bring
us to church services, or not, depending on preference, if they had a
desire for or an aversion to education in religion.

In some ways, it was an odd system. Nowadays, some sort of
interdenominational religious education is taught - and they get into
world religions at some points - but I think by high school the courses
are pretty much optional and low enrollment. Of course, even in the old
days, parents had the ultimate say as to whether their children attended
the religious education classes which were then 'compulsory' in most
schools, but some didn't seem to realize that and allegedly some schools
didn't go out of their way to make sure that parents knew they had that
option. Part of the reason was religious belief, but part - especially
in the larger schools - was that the school still had to provide
supervision for the excused students, and once you have more than one or
two excused, or have some excused who can't be trusted to behave well,
there are consequences for the orderly operation of the school, and
maybe legal consequences, too.

--
Cheryl

[the Omrud]

That's "took" as in "was a student". The quoted sentence uses "took" as
"was the teacher".

My headmaster took all RE classes for first-year pupils.

--
David

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 09:33:39 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 21:48:29 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
><jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mar 10, 3:33 pm, Nick Spalding <spald...@iol.ie> wrote:
>>> Leif Ohlsson wrote, in
>>> <3bcce4c1-a97c-4dcc...@googlegroups.com>
>>>  on Sun, 10 Mar 2013 13:55:16 -0700 (PDT):
>>>
>>> > Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to the right of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first time in the late seventies in Sweden (where I live).

>>> > The novel by John le Carré was published 1974.
>>> > My question is: did le Carré invent the expression, or has it been around even before -74. If so, who coined the phrase?

>>>
>>> > Second question: There's a sentence in the novel that I don't quite understand:
>>> > "..the late Mrs. Loveday, who had a persian lamb-coat and stood in for junior divinity until her cheques bounced". What does it mean; "stood in for junior divinity"? (she was a teacher).
>>>
>>> > Grateful for any suggestions.
>>>
>>> She sometimes took classes in junior divinity when the regular teacher
>>> was not available.
>>
>>Incidentally, I think that use of "took" would confuse a lot of
>>Americans for a moment.
>
>It doesn't confuse me at all. It's a phrasing that I would use
>without a thought. However, you know from my posting history that I
>am one of the sloppier users of our language in our group.
>
>I took classes in courses other than business subjects when I was an
>undergraduate. <sounds right to me.

Whoops...misread this one. The meaning was that Mrs Loveday *taught*
classes when the regular teacher was not available. Still, I have no
real problem understanding "took" in this context if I read the entire
sentence.

How about: "John took any shifts available."? (John is a waiter)
Or, "Mary took any class except physical ed"? (Mary is a substitute
teacher who is called when a regular teacher doesn't show up)

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 09:51:07 +0000, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
wrote:

This reminds me of 1956 when I was offered a scholarship to a small,
private college. It was a church-founded college, and a certain
number of credits in "Religious Education" was required. Degrees (BA,
BS) were offered in many non-religious majors, but the college rules
required all students to take some Religious Education courses.

I didn't go there.

[James Hogg]

The context makes things clearer. She is a teacher in the category of
the "poor white of the teaching community", "employed through one of the
shiftier agencies specialising in supply teachers for prep schools". She
was writing bad cheques and presumably ran into trouble with the law as
a result. The next teacher in this category of "poor white of the
teaching community" whose fate is briefly described in the novel is "the
late Mr. Maltby, the pianist who had been called from choir practice to
help the police with their enquiries, and as far as anyone knew was
helping them to this day."

--
James

[Iain Archer]

CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote on Mon, 11 Mar 2013 at 09:10:06:
>On 10/03/2013 9:25 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> Leif Ohlsson <leif.o...@expressen.se> wrote:
>
>>> Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to the
>>> right of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first time in
>>> the late seventies in Sweden (where I live). The novel by John le

>>> Carr� was published 1974. My question is: did le Carr� invent the

>>> expression, or has it been around even before -74. If so, who
>>> coined the phrase?
>
>>> Second question: There's a sentence in the novel that I don't quite
>>> understand: "..the late Mrs. Loveday, who had a persian lamb-coat
>>> and stood in for junior divinity until her cheques bounced". What
>>> does it mean; "stood in for junior divinity"? (she was a teacher).
>
>> Her lambs wore coats imported from Persia?
>
>Good question. Leif, is "Persian lamb-coat" what was in the novel? It
>should be Persian-lamb coat, if there is a hyphen; usually the phrase is
>written without one.
>

It's in the first paragraph of the novel -- unhyphenated in the HTML
version I've downloaded.
--
Iain Archer

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 13:16:05 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>
>When I was at school (in England) we attended Scripture classes. I think
>that the name was changed to Religious Education some years later. In
>turn that became Religious Studies. I think that the name "Religious
>Education" was felt to carry an undercurrent of religious
>indoctrination. "Studies" perhaps seems more objective.
>

As Iain Archer has mentioned, another name used was "Religious
Knowledge".

[James Hogg]

No hyphen in my British paperback from 1975. Snippet views on Google
Books would seem to indicate that American editions put a hyphen in
"Persian-lamb".

--
James

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Leif Ohlsson <leif.o...@expressen.se> writes:

> Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to the
> right of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first time in
> the late seventies in Sweden (where I live). The novel by John le

> Carré was published 1974. My question is: did le Carré invent the

> expression, or has it been around even before -74. If so, who coined
> the phrase?

It wasn't coined there, but I don't see it much further back.

But when Joe's telling me how to run Charter, he's almost to the
right of Genghis Khan.

_Life_, Aug. 28, 1970

American community in Singapore considerably to the right of
Genghis Khan, only not as literate, a situation somewhat debasing
to the human spirit.

_Princeton Alumni Weekly_, May 16,
1971

And there is the pep-pill effect his sort of talk ... can have on
suburbia's neanderthal element: the people already moving to the
right of Pontius Pilate who would like to keep blacks and low-cost
housing out of their communities ...

_New York Magazine_, Oct. 11, 1971

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Sorry, captain. Convenient
SF Bay Area (1982-) |technobabble levels are dangerously
Chicago (1964-1982) |low.

evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Mar 10, 4:55 pm, Leif Ohlsson <leif.ohls...@expressen.se> wrote:
> Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to the right of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first time in the late seventies in Sweden (where I live).
> The novel by John le Carré was published 1974.
> My question is: did le Carré invent the expression, or has it been around even before -74. If so, who coined the phrase?

it's usually "the right of Attila the Hun".

clearly Altaic people are getting a bad press in the West.

although official Soviet and thus Communist Mongolian viewpoint
echoing Russian sentiment villified Chinggis (the Mongolian
pronounciation) I would argue that both Chinggis and Attila
revolutionized their respective societies. I don't regard abolishing
the decadent Empire of the Khwarezmshah by Chinggis and war on the
Roman Empire as being "rightist" although their methods were
reprehensible.

Attila and Chinggis have become schoolbook heroes in Turkey and Attila
tradtionally has been a hero in Hungary.

>
> Second question: There's a sentence in the novel that I don't quite understand:
> "..the late Mrs. Loveday, who had a persian lamb-coat and stood in for junior divinity until her cheques bounced". What does it mean; "stood in for junior divinity"? (she was a teacher).
>

> Grateful for any suggestions.
> Leif, Stockholm

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Mar 11, 1:25 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 10, 4:55 pm, Leif Ohlsson <leif.ohls...@expressen.se> wrote:
>
> > Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to the right of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first time in the late seventies in Sweden (where I live).
> > The novel by John le Carré was published 1974.
> > My question is: did le Carré invent the expression, or has it been around even before -74. If so, who coined the phrase?
>
> it's usually "the right of Attila the Hun".
>
> clearly Altaic people are getting a bad press in the West.
>
> although official Soviet and thus Communist Mongolian viewpoint
> echoing Russian sentiment villified Chinggis (the Mongolian

the exception was an early Soviet Russian film "Storm over Asia" about
a fictional descendant of Chinggis who becomes the hero.

actually there are many people who claim descent from Chinggis, in
some cases well documented.

[Skitt]

Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

> "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote:

>> When I was at school (in England) we attended Scripture classes. I think
>> that the name was changed to Religious Education some years later. In
>> turn that became Religious Studies. I think that the name "Religious
>> Education" was felt to carry an undercurrent of religious
>> indoctrination. "Studies" perhaps seems more objective.
>>
> As Iain Archer has mentioned, another name used was "Religious
> Knowledge".
>
>

Speaking of which, here's a little quiz to test that knowledge.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0105/Are-you-smarter-than-an-atheist-A-religious-quiz/When-does-the-Jewish-Sabbath-begin

By the way, in Latvian schools we had a course whose name translates to
"Faith Education". Believers who had their minds set a particular way
could opt out. A pair of Baptist brothers did that when I was taking
the course.
--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://home.comcast.net/~skitt99/main.html

[Iain Archer]

Yusuf B Gursey wrote on Mon, 11 Mar 2013

>On Mar 10, 4:55�pm, Leif Ohlsson <leif.ohls...@expressen.se> wrote:
>> Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to the
>>right of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first time in the
>>late seventies in Sweden (where I live).

>> The novel by John le Carr� was published 1974.
>> My question is: did le Carr� invent the expression, or has it been

>>around even before -74. If so, who coined the phrase?
>
>it's usually "the right of Attila the Hun".
>

For which the earliest reference I can find in Google Books is:

"But when it comes to people and politics, sf sometimes takes a position
slightly to the right of Attila the Hun."
-- The Trend in engineering (Jan 1971), University of Washington

which lags behind Evan's Genghis in Life, Aug. 28, 1970.
--
Iain Archer

[Sam Plusnet]

In article <khjs...@drn.newsguy.com>, dado...@spamcop.net says...
>
> Sam Plusnet filted:

> >
> >> On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 13:55:16 -0700 (PDT), Leif Ohlsson
> >> <leif.o...@expressen.se> wrote:
> >> >
> >>>Second question: There's a sentence in the novel that I don't quite understand:
> >>>"..the late Mrs. Loveday, who had a persian lamb-coat and stood in for junior
> >>divinity until her cheques bounced". What does it mean; "stood in for junior
> >>divinity"? (she was a teacher).
> >

> >I do appreciate that this is quite wrong, but taken out of context, and
> >remembering that this was a boys' school, I wondered if Mrs Loveday was
> >so attractive that the boys considered her to be near divine - until she
> >was found to have feet of clay.
>
> And cheques of rubber....r

And her tail/W knees were made out of springs...

Clearly a woman of parts.

--
Sam

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 10:58:19 -0700, Skitt <ski...@comcast.net> wrote:

>Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>> "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote:
>
>>> When I was at school (in England) we attended Scripture classes. I think
>>> that the name was changed to Religious Education some years later. In
>>> turn that became Religious Studies. I think that the name "Religious
>>> Education" was felt to carry an undercurrent of religious
>>> indoctrination. "Studies" perhaps seems more objective.
>>>
>> As Iain Archer has mentioned, another name used was "Religious
>> Knowledge".
>>
>>
>Speaking of which, here's a little quiz to test that knowledge.
>
>http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0105/Are-you-smarter-than-an-atheist-A-religious-quiz/When-does-the-Jewish-Sabbath-begin
>

Worryingly, I scored 30 out of 32. I must try less hard.

I failed on the head of the Greek Gods and the leader of The Great
Awakening questions.

>By the way, in Latvian schools we had a course whose name translates to
>"Faith Education". Believers who had their minds set a particular way
>could opt out. A pair of Baptist brothers did that when I was taking
>the course.

--

[Jerry Friedman]

On Mar 11, 11:30 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 11, 1:25 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mar 10, 4:55 pm, Leif Ohlsson <leif.ohls...@expressen.se> wrote:
>
> > > Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to the right of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first time in the late seventies in Sweden (where I live).
> > > The novel by John le Carré was published 1974.
> > > My question is: did le Carré invent the expression, or has it been around even before -74. If so, who coined the phrase?
>
> > it's usually "the right of Attila the Hun".
>
> > clearly Altaic people are getting a bad press in the West.
>
> > although official Soviet and thus Communist Mongolian viewpoint
> > echoing Russian sentiment villified Chinggis (the Mongolian
>
> the exception was an early Soviet Russian film "Storm over Asia" about
> a fictional descendant of Chinggis who becomes the hero.

...

Somewhere recently I saw an admiring comment that Chinggis considered
himself bound by the law, unlike most (all?) rulers at the time. I
haven't tried to find out what that refers to or how true it is.

> > pronounciation) I would argue that both Chinggis and Attila
> > revolutionized their respective societies. I don't regard abolishing
> > the decadent Empire of the Khwarezmshah by Chinggis and war on the
> > Roman Empire as being "rightist" although their methods were
> > reprehensible.

The early uses are from a time when, as I recall, many people
considered any kind of support of the military to be right-wing.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On Mar 11, 7:56 am, James Hogg <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
> Tim McDaniel wrote:
> > In article

> > <4a41e15a-8996-4e07-b187-21a68d1c3...@n2g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,

...

Thanks. I suppose that, as others suggested, the school would also
rather not have teachers who wrote bad checks, but my vague memory was
that they didn't have so much choice.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Christian Weisgerber]

Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:

> I don't know who coined it, but the phrase "to the right of <famous
> name> " (and, for that matter, "to the left of <famous name>) are fairly
> common. I think I've heard "to the right of Attila the Hun" more often
> than "to the irght of Genghis Khan", though.

I'm not sure where to place Attila or Genghis Khan in today's
political spectrum.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

[Jerry Friedman]

On Mar 11, 11:58 am, Skitt <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> > "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote:
> >> When I was at school (in England) we attended Scripture classes. I think
> >> that the name was changed to Religious Education some years later. In
> >> turn that became Religious Studies. I think that the name "Religious
> >> Education" was felt to carry an undercurrent of religious
> >> indoctrination. "Studies" perhaps seems more objective.
>
> > As Iain Archer has mentioned, another name used was "Religious
> > Knowledge".
>
> Speaking of which, here's a little quiz to test that knowledge.
>

> http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0105/Are-you-smarter-than-an-atheis...

Weird set-up, where you have to hit "next" twice to get to the next
question, waiting for the ads both times, and weird ways of asking
questions: "Do you happen to know which of these is the king of gods
in ancient Greek mythology?" (Zeus, Mars, Apollo, Don't know) and
"Please tell me which of the following is NOT one of the Ten
Commandments?" and "Would you tell me if Mother Teresa was ...(Jewish,
Catholic, Hindu, Mormon, Buddhist, Don't know)". I hope neither of
those catches on.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Leif Ohlsson]

On Monday, March 11, 2013 3:27:13 PM UTC+1, James Hogg wrote:
> Iain Archer wrote:
>
> > CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote on Mon, 11 Mar 2013 at 09:10:06:
>
> >> On 10/03/2013 9:25 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>
> >>> Leif Ohlsson <leif.o...@expressen.se> wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>>> Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to
>
> >>>> the right of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first
>
> >>>> time in the late seventies in Sweden (where I live). The novel
>

> >>>> by John le Carré was published 1974. My question is: did le
>
> >>>> Carré invent the expression, or has it been around even before

>
> >>>> -74. If so, who coined the phrase?
>
> >>
>
> >>>> Second question: There's a sentence in the novel that I don't
>
> >>>> quite understand: "..the late Mrs. Loveday, who had a persian
>
> >>>> lamb-coat and stood in for junior divinity until her cheques
>
> >>>> bounced". What does it mean; "stood in for junior divinity"?
>
> >>>> (she was a teacher).
>
> >>
>
> >>> Her lambs wore coats imported from Persia?
>
> >>
>
> >> Good question. Leif, is "Persian lamb-coat" what was in the novel?
>
> >> It should be Persian-lamb coat, if there is a hyphen; usually the
>
> >> phrase is written without one.
>
> >>
>
> > It's in the first paragraph of the novel -- unhyphenated in the HTML
>
> > version I've downloaded.
>
>
>
> No hyphen in my British paperback from 1975. Snippet views on Google
>
> Books would seem to indicate that American editions put a hyphen in
>
> "Persian-lamb".
>
>
>
> --
>
> James

Yes, my mistake. There's a hyphen in my american edition of the novel, but not where I put it.

--
Leif

[Skitt]

Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

> Skitt wrote:
>> Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>>> "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote:

>>>> When I was at school (in England) we attended Scripture classes. I think
>>>> that the name was changed to Religious Education some years later. In
>>>> turn that became Religious Studies. I think that the name "Religious
>>>> Education" was felt to carry an undercurrent of religious
>>>> indoctrination. "Studies" perhaps seems more objective.
>>>>
>>> As Iain Archer has mentioned, another name used was "Religious
>>> Knowledge".
>>>
>>>
>> Speaking of which, here's a little quiz to test that knowledge.
>>
>> http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0105/Are-you-smarter-than-an-atheist-A-religious-quiz/When-does-the-Jewish-Sabbath-begin
>>
> Worryingly, I scored 30 out of 32. I must try less hard.
>
> I failed on the head of the Greek Gods and the leader of The Great
> Awakening questions.
>
>

I got lucky on the Great Awakening one, and I aced the test. I'm a good
atheist, and I know what I don't believe in.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

And that's a snippet. I don't trust the dates on snippets (or even
that they necessarily match the asserted work). The first verifiable
hit with Attila the Hun is in the November 29, 1984, _New Scientist_.

At the other side, I see "to the left of Mao Tse-tung" in 1974.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a
SF Bay Area (1982-) |barbarian, and thinks that the
Chicago (1964-1982) |customs of his tribe and island are
|the laws of nature.
evan.kir...@gmail.com |
| Shaw, _Caesar & Cleopatra_
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

I was doing so well until I got to the Great Awakening one. 31 out of
32. Are you and I the atheists people are supposed to compare
themselves to with this test?

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |A handgun is like a Lawyer. You
SF Bay Area (1982-) |don't want it lying around where
Chicago (1964-1982) |the children might be exposed to
|it, but when you need one, you need
evan.kir...@gmail.com |it RIGHT NOW, and nothing else will
|do.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Bill McNutt

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> writes:

> Skitt <ski...@comcast.net> writes:
>
>> Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>>> Skitt wrote:
>
>>>> Speaking of which, here's a little quiz to test that knowledge.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0105/Are-you-smarter-than-an-atheist-A-religious-quiz/When-does-the-Jewish-Sabbath-begin
>>>>
>>> Worryingly, I scored 30 out of 32. I must try less hard.
>>>
>>> I failed on the head of the Greek Gods and the leader of The Great
>>> Awakening questions.
>>>
>> I got lucky on the Great Awakening one, and I aced the test. I'm a
>> good atheist, and I know what I don't believe in.
>
> I was doing so well until I got to the Great Awakening one.

And, in my defense, my answer would have been correct for the *Second*
Great Awakening. That was a much pickier (and trickier) question than
any of the others.

> 31 out of 32. Are you and I the atheists people are supposed to
> compare themselves to with this test?

Oh, and I notice that the Christian Science Monitor quiz didn't ask
any questions about Christian Science.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Sometimes I think the surest sign
SF Bay Area (1982-) |that intelligent life exists
Chicago (1964-1982) |elsewhere in the universe is that
|none of it has tried to contact us.
evan.kir...@gmail.com | Calvin

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 10:58:19 -0700, Skitt <ski...@comcast.net> wrote:

>Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>> "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote:
>
>>> When I was at school (in England) we attended Scripture classes. I think
>>> that the name was changed to Religious Education some years later. In
>>> turn that became Religious Studies. I think that the name "Religious
>>> Education" was felt to carry an undercurrent of religious
>>> indoctrination. "Studies" perhaps seems more objective.
>>>
>> As Iain Archer has mentioned, another name used was "Religious
>> Knowledge".
>>
>>
>Speaking of which, here's a little quiz to test that knowledge.
>
>http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0105/Are-you-smarter-than-an-atheist-A-religious-quiz/When-does-the-Jewish-Sabbath-begin

According to my scoring, I got 31 out of 32 correct (I answered "Don't know"
to one of the questions on the US Constitution).

According to their scoring, I got them all wrong (didn't have Javascript
enabled).

But most of that stuff I learned at high school, a Methodist church school, in
fact.




--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Steve Hayes]

When I got a job as a bus conductor one of the written rules was that anyone
who had a garnishee order against them was liable to instant dismissal. One
could get one of those without even writing dud cheques.

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 01:22:26 +0000 (UTC), wol...@bimajority.org (Garrett
Wollman) wrote:

>In article <khiv3j$fnl$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
>Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at> wrote:
>>Standing in for someone means taking their place if they are unable to
>>appear for whatever reason (illness, drunkenness, imprisonment, etc.) The
>>sentence means that Mrs. Loveday taught the junior divinity classes when the
>>regular teacher was away.
>
>As a name for a subject, "divinity" is, I suspect familiar to most
>Americans only in the name of Harvard Divinity School and any
>similarly-named institutions as may exist. It sounds odd: like they
>are teaching students how to be divine, rather than how to preach
>about it. (HDS is officially non-denominational, but it was at the
>center of the Unitarians' break from Congregationalism.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDlkbai_Ftk

Here's a first-rate opportunity
To get married with impunity,
And indulge in the felicity
Of unbounded domesticity.
You shall quickly be parsonified,
Conjugally matrimonified,
By a doctor of divinity
Who is located in this vicinity.
By a doctor of divinity,
Who resides in this vicinity,
By a doctor, a doctor, a doctor of divinity, of divinity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Divinity

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 22:24:38 +0000, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>The subject in British schools used to be narrowly Christian, and was
>generally known either as "Divinity" or "Scripture". A few
>old-fashioned schools still, I believe, use the term "Humanity" for
>Latin lessons. Even more amusing, to me, are those schools which teach
>religious studies in the Humanities Department.

According to Wikipedia:

The humanities include ancient and modern languages, literature, philosophy,
religion, and visual and performing arts such as music and theatre. The
humanities that are also regarded as social sciences include history,
anthropology, area studies, communication studies, cultural studies, law,
economics and linguistics. Scholars working in the humanities are sometimes
described as "humanists".

[Jerry Friedman]

On Mar 11, 11:25 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 10, 4:55 pm, Leif Ohlsson <leif.ohls...@expressen.se> wrote:
>
> > Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to the right of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first time in the late seventies in Sweden (where I live).
> > The novel by John le Carré was published 1974.
> > My question is: did le Carré invent the expression, or has it been around even before -74. If so, who coined the phrase?
>
> it's usually "the right of Attila the Hun".

True, though till about 1993 they were pretty close, with GK often
ahead.

http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=right+of+Attila+the+Hun%2Cright+of+Genghis+Khan&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=

> clearly Altaic people are getting a bad press in the West.

...

Indeed, though it's better to be a Young Turk than a Mongoloid.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 09:51:07 +0000, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> It was divinity early in my school career but became "RE" later, and is
>> RE now as far as I can tell.
>
>It was RI in my school in 1967 - Religious Instruction. But what we got
>in that lesson was actually RE. Nobody tried to Instruct us at all.

Exam Question: In what sense was Jesus divine?
Answer: He had such GORGEOUS shoulder-length hair.

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 17:27:28 +0000 (UTC), na...@mips.inka.de (Christian
Weisgerber) wrote:

>Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:
>
>> I don't know who coined it, but the phrase "to the right of <famous
>> name> " (and, for that matter, "to the left of <famous name>) are fairly
>> common. I think I've heard "to the right of Attila the Hun" more often
>> than "to the irght of Genghis Khan", though.
>
>I'm not sure where to place Attila or Genghis Khan in today's
>political spectrum.

One of the epithets for Margaret Thatcher was Attila the Hen.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <mwu9sl...@gmail.com>,

Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Oh, and I notice that the Christian Science Monitor quiz didn't ask
>any questions about Christian Science.

It wasn't their quiz; they took it from Pew.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <khl460$1eiq$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,

Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:

>I'm not sure where to place Attila or Genghis Khan in today's
>political spectrum.

With respect to Attila, one must remember that to Americans of a
certain age, "the Hun" was newspaperese for "Germany", particularly of
the National Socialist persuasion (but I suspect also the Imperial
variety during WWI).

[musika]

On 11/03/2013 20:01, Jerry Friedman wrote:


>
> Weird set-up, where you have to hit "next" twice to get to the next
> question, waiting for the ads both times, and weird ways of asking
> questions: "Do you happen to know which of these is the king of gods
> in ancient Greek mythology?" (Zeus, Mars, Apollo, Don't know) and
> "Please tell me which of the following is NOT one of the Ten
> Commandments?" and "Would you tell me if Mother Teresa was ...(Jewish,
> Catholic, Hindu, Mormon, Buddhist, Don't know)". I hope neither of
> those catches on.

Well, the first "next" takes you to the answer and the second "next" to
the next question. I don't find that weird.

--
Ray
UK

[Leslie Danks]

Garrett Wollman wrote:

> In article <khl460$1eiq$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>
>>I'm not sure where to place Attila or Genghis Khan in today's
>>political spectrum.
>
> With respect to Attila, one must remember that to Americans of a
> certain age, "the Hun" was newspaperese for "Germany", particularly of
> the National Socialist persuasion (but I suspect also the Imperial
> variety during WWI).

Yes. This is an excerpt from a Yahoo.answers.com article [1]:

[quote]
“Huns” resulted from a remark made by Kaiser Wilhelm when he dispatched a
German expeditionary corps to China during the 1900 Boxer Rebellion. He
basically told his troops to show no mercy, saying that 1,000 years ago the
Huns (an Asiatic nomad people, not Germanic in the least) led by Attila, had
made such a name for themselves with their depredations that they were still
considered synonymous with wanton destruction, and urging the German troops
of 1900 in China to similarly make a name for themselves that would last
1,000 years. When the Germans were fighting the French and the British a
mere 14 years later, this piece of ready-made propaganda was too good to
pass up for the Allied side, particularly in view of the reports coming in
from Belgium from the earliest days of the war.
[/quote]

So it was the Kaiser's fault...

[http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071004154548AAoSix1]

--
Les

[Cheryl]

I got 30 - the leader of the Great Awakening and (rather stupidly) the
majority religion in Indonesia were the ones I missed. I thought about
the correct answer for Indonesia, and then thought I must be wrong
because if they were the majority, what was all the unrest about?

I even got the questions about US laws right.

--
Cheryl

[Mike L]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 13:56:47 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
<evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Skitt <ski...@comcast.net> writes:
>
>> Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>>> Skitt wrote:
>
>>>> Speaking of which, here's a little quiz to test that knowledge.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0105/Are-you-smarter-than-an-atheist-A-religious-quiz/When-does-the-Jewish-Sabbath-begin
>>>>
>>> Worryingly, I scored 30 out of 32. I must try less hard.
>>>
>>> I failed on the head of the Greek Gods and the leader of The Great
>>> Awakening questions.
>>>
>> I got lucky on the Great Awakening one, and I aced the test. I'm a
>> good atheist, and I know what I don't believe in.
>
>I was doing so well until I got to the Great Awakening one. 31 out of
>32. Are you and I the atheists people are supposed to compare
>themselves to with this test?

They named a specific atheist to emulate: president of the Association
of American Atheists (OWTTE) scored 100%. As we've seen before, many
conscious atheists and agnostics know a lot about religious matters,
since they've actually thought about the subject - very likely as much
as ministers or teachers of the established religions.

I aced it, but with a quasi-informed guess on The Great Awakening, of
which I hadn't heard. There's a well-known British Olympian named
Jonathan Edwards, and he comes from a low-church Anglican family, and
the answer was clearly going to be some kind of Christian. Maybe
Olympic Jonathan was named after this Jonathan; couldn't be Graham,
never heard of the other one, so "Click".

--
Mike.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Edwards was a key figure in the First Great Awakening (which is the
one they specified), Finney in the Second Great Awakening. I had
thought that the first one was the one in the early 19th century (with
the second later in the century) and picked wrong.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |To express oneself
SF Bay Area (1982-) |In seventeen syllables
Chicago (1964-1982) |Is very diffic
| Tony Finch
evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Mike L]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 23:33:31 +0200, Steve Hayes
<haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 22:24:38 +0000, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>The subject in British schools used to be narrowly Christian, and was
>>generally known either as "Divinity" or "Scripture". A few
>>old-fashioned schools still, I believe, use the term "Humanity" for
>>Latin lessons. Even more amusing, to me, are those schools which teach
>>religious studies in the Humanities Department.
>
>According to Wikipedia:
>
>The humanities include ancient and modern languages, literature, philosophy,
>religion, and visual and performing arts such as music and theatre. The
>humanities that are also regarded as social sciences include history,
>anthropology, area studies, communication studies, cultural studies, law,
>economics and linguistics. Scholars working in the humanities are sometimes
>described as "humanists".
>

Wikipedia's no doubt recording current usage; but the list is clearly
so large as to be meaningless. That's current thinking for you. My
implicit original point, of course, was that it's not neutral to
classify religious studies - a.k.a. Divinity, etc - as a "humanity".

That group labelled "social sciences" horrifies me: anthropology may
be a science, but none of the others is. Disciplines, no doubt; but
not sciences.

--
Mike.

--
Mike.

[Mike L]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 13:07:19 -0700 (PDT), Leif Ohlsson
<leif.o...@expressen.se> wrote:

>On Monday, March 11, 2013 3:27:13 PM UTC+1, James Hogg wrote:
>> Iain Archer wrote:
>>
>> > CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote on Mon, 11 Mar 2013 at 09:10:06:
>>
>> >> On 10/03/2013 9:25 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>
>> >>> Leif Ohlsson <leif.o...@expressen.se> wrote:
>>
>> >>>> Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to
>>
>> >>>> the right of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first
>>
>> >>>> time in the late seventies in Sweden (where I live). The novel
>>

>> >>>> by John le Carr� was published 1974. My question is: did le
>>
>> >>>> Carr� invent the expression, or has it been around even before

>>
>> >>>> -74. If so, who coined the phrase?
>>
>> >>>> Second question: There's a sentence in the novel that I don't
>>
>> >>>> quite understand: "..the late Mrs. Loveday, who had a persian
>>
>> >>>> lamb-coat and stood in for junior divinity until her cheques
>>
>> >>>> bounced". What does it mean; "stood in for junior divinity"?
>>
>> >>>> (she was a teacher).
>>
>> >>> Her lambs wore coats imported from Persia?
>>
>> >> Good question. Leif, is "Persian lamb-coat" what was in the novel?
>>
>> >> It should be Persian-lamb coat, if there is a hyphen; usually the
>>
>> >> phrase is written without one.
>>
>> > It's in the first paragraph of the novel -- unhyphenated in the HTML
>>
>> > version I've downloaded.
>>
>> No hyphen in my British paperback from 1975. Snippet views on Google
>>
>> Books would seem to indicate that American editions put a hyphen in
>>
>> "Persian-lamb".
>

>Yes, my mistake. There's a hyphen in my american edition of the novel, but not where I put it.

One of the most depressing furs, to my mind. John Seymour told how he
once had a shepherding job in South Africa which required him to check
each new-born lamb and immediately kill and skin the ones with perfect
astrakhan coats. No job for a man who knew that animals had maternal
feelings.

--
Mike.

[Robert Bannister]

On 11/03/13 10:08 PM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 13:16:05 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
> <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> When I was at school (in England) we attended Scripture classes. I think
>> that the name was changed to Religious Education some years later. In
>> turn that became Religious Studies. I think that the name "Religious
>> Education" was felt to carry an undercurrent of religious
>> indoctrination. "Studies" perhaps seems more objective.
>>
> As Iain Archer has mentioned, another name used was "Religious
> Knowledge".
>
>

The same sort of thing happened with gym which could be PE, PI or PT
depending on current educational fads. I was actually quite surprised
how many other contributors agreed with "Divinity" as the name, as I
thought it was a peculiarity of my school.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 12/03/13 2:59 AM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 10:58:19 -0700, Skitt <ski...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

>>> "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote:
>>
>>>> When I was at school (in England) we attended Scripture classes. I think
>>>> that the name was changed to Religious Education some years later. In
>>>> turn that became Religious Studies. I think that the name "Religious
>>>> Education" was felt to carry an undercurrent of religious
>>>> indoctrination. "Studies" perhaps seems more objective.
>>>>
>>> As Iain Archer has mentioned, another name used was "Religious
>>> Knowledge".
>>>
>>>

>> Speaking of which, here's a little quiz to test that knowledge.
>>
>> http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0105/Are-you-smarter-than-an-atheist-A-religious-quiz/When-does-the-Jewish-Sabbath-begin
>>
> Worryingly, I scored 30 out of 32. I must try less hard.
>
> I failed on the head of the Greek Gods and the leader of The Great
> Awakening questions.

Well, I got them all right, but it doesn't prove anything. To start
with, it is biassed towards Americans with at least three questions
about the American Constitution. In addition, amongst a whole load of
very easy questions, there were a few very obscure things. I have never
heard of Maimonides nor of the Great Awakening.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 11/03/13 12:48 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Mar 10, 3:33 pm, Nick Spalding <spald...@iol.ie> wrote:
>> Leif Ohlsson wrote, in
>> <3bcce4c1-a97c-4dcc...@googlegroups.com>
>> on Sun, 10 Mar 2013 13:55:16 -0700 (PDT):

>>
>>> Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to the right of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first time in the late seventies in Sweden (where I live).
>>> The novel by John le Carr� was published 1974.
>>> My question is: did le Carr� invent the expression, or has it been around even before -74. If so, who coined the phrase?
>>
>>> Second question: There's a sentence in the novel that I don't quite understand:
>>> "..the late Mrs. Loveday, who had a persian lamb-coat and stood in for junior divinity until her cheques bounced". What does it mean; "stood in for junior divinity"? (she was a teacher).
>>

>>> Grateful for any suggestions.
>>
>> She sometimes took classes in junior divinity when the regular teacher
>> was not available.
>
> Incidentally, I think that use of "took" would confuse a lot of
> Americans for a moment. People in the ed biz sometimes use it to each
> other ("I need someone to take that class") but otherwise "take a
> class" is what the students do, in my experience. Or the pupils, as
> you would say.
>
> And why does the school care whether her checks bounced? She wasn't
> writing checks to the school, was she?

My Phys Ed teacher in first year high school was sacked when they caught
him selling stolen TVs - dishonesty reflects badly on the school whether
the school is directly involved or not.

--
Robert Bannister

[Donna Richoux]

Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:

> On 2013-03-10 6:25 PM, Leif Ohlsson wrote:

> > Reading "Tinker, Tailor..." I noticed the expression "just to the right
> > of Genghis Khan". I heard that phrase for the first time in the late
> > seventies in Sweden (where I live). The novel by John le Carr� was
> > published 1974. My question is: did le Carr� invent the expression, or
> > has it been around even before -74. If so, who coined the phrase?
>

> I don't know who coined it, but the phrase "to the right of <famous
> name> " (and, for that matter, "to the left of <famous name>) are fairly
> common. I think I've heard "to the right of Attila the Hun" more often
> than "to the irght of Genghis Khan", though.
>

That occurred to me, too. Google Books' first hit for "to the right of
Attila the Hun" is dated 1978, though, while their first for "to the
right of Genghis Khan" is 1970, as Evan shows.

Actually my first thought is that "Genghis Khan" is a highly misspelled
name, thus affecting Google hunts. Does my list of old Google Ratios
still open on this new computer?... Yes, thanks be. My notes then,
around 2002, were:

> Genghis Khan
> the Biographical Dictionary site says it is "Genghis Khan"
>
> counting hits for gengis, ghengis, and ghenghis shows that
> "ghengis" is the most popular of the errors.
>
> "Genghis" 53,000
> outnumbers
> "ghengis" 14,000 or almost 4:1.
>
> Comparing all seven other possible combinations to "Genghis Khan" shows
> that the correct spelling (39,000) outnumbers all the misspellings
> together (~13,000) by about 3:1.

I'll just add here that ratios in the area of 3 or 4 mean they are
extremely common errors. Ratios around 2 tended to be legitimate (if
perhaps controversial) variants. Almost nothing was lower than 2 ("ad
nauseam" was a rare example of being outnumbered by the mistaken
version, "ad nauseum").

--
Best -- Donna Richoux

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

I got those right by thinking of the probable underlying principles and
then guessing.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:

> Well, I got them all right, but it doesn't prove anything. To start
> with, it is biassed towards Americans with at least three questions
> about the American Constitution. In addition, amongst a whole load
> of very easy questions, there were a few very obscure things. I have
> never heard of Maimonides nor of the Great Awakening.

I'll give you the Great Awakening, but never having heard of Rabbi
Moses ben Maimon, the "Rambam" to Jews and Moses Maimonides to the
goyim, is kinda like never having heard of Augustine. I'd expect him
to be probably the second-most-recognized Jewish philosopher, after
Hillel.

Out of curiosity, in your comparative religion classes (assuming you
had them), how was Judaism presented? It would seem to be hard to
describe rabbincal (that is, post-Temple) Judaism without reference to
Maimonides' 13 principles of faith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_principles_of_faith#Maimonides.27_13_principles_of_faith

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Those who study history are doomed
SF Bay Area (1982-) |to watch others repeat it.
Chicago (1964-1982)

evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <m2rsj8tgllglbbcs8...@4ax.com>,

Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 23:33:31 +0200, Steve Hayes
><haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>According to Wikipedia:
>>
>>The humanities include ancient and modern languages, literature, philosophy,
>>religion, and visual and performing arts such as music and theatre. The
>>humanities that are also regarded as social sciences include history,
>>anthropology, area studies, communication studies, cultural studies, law,
>>economics and linguistics. Scholars working in the humanities are sometimes
>>described as "humanists".

[deletia]

>That group labelled "social sciences" horrifies me: anthropology may
>be a science, but none of the others is. Disciplines, no doubt; but
>not sciences.

I think there are plenty of linguists who would dispute your
contention. Economists likewise, but that's more debatable. MIT
gives out S.B. degrees in both, and doctorates in those two plus
political science, history, and philosophy. At other universities,
economics is often part of the business school, and in some places
linguistics is placed more firmly on the science side of the ledger.
(The notion of going to an engineering school to get a Ph.D. in
political science does seem a bit odd, but not quite so odd as going
to an engineering school to get a Bachelor of Science in Music.)

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <wqtdpg...@gmail.com>,
Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:

>I'll give you the Great Awakening, but never having heard of Rabbi
>Moses ben Maimon, the "Rambam" to Jews and Moses Maimonides to the
>goyim,

"Musa ibn Maimun" is the form that I've heard -- but I would never
have heard of him had I not read a book about Islamic Spain.

>Out of curiosity, in your comparative religion classes (assuming you
>had them), how was Judaism presented? It would seem to be hard to
>describe rabbincal (that is, post-Temple) Judaism without reference to
>Maimonides' 13 principles of faith.

Anything I know about C.E. Judaism I've learned outside of school
(mostly from those who practice it). I don't expect that's unique,
although I did go to parochial school. (We didn't even bother with
all the different ways the various protestant sects were wrong,[1] if
I recall correctly, but we did get an overview of Asian religions in
the social-studies course called "Russian and Asian Studies".)

-GAWollman

[1] From the Church's perspective, of course.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

I got that one wrong because I recognised the name Jonathan Edwards from
that other context and avoided it.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

General Rule: Disciplines with "science" in the name are not sciences.

That rule was passed on to me by a computer scientist. He considered
that Computer Science straddles the science/non-science boundary.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Mar 11, 5:42 pm, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

[test of religious knowledge]

> I aced it, but with a quasi-informed guess on The Great Awakening, of
> which I hadn't heard. There's a well-known British Olympian named
> Jonathan Edwards, and he comes from a low-church Anglican family, and
> the answer was clearly going to be some kind of Christian. Maybe
> Olympic Jonathan was named after this Jonathan; couldn't be Graham,
> never heard of the other one, so "Click".

For those unfamiliar with Jonathan Edwards, he's most famous (perhaps
unfairly) for his sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God". If
you need to be cheered up, it's available on many Web pages. Here it
is with long esses and everything:

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1053&context=etas

Keep reading till you feel better.

--
Jerry Friedman

[R H Draney]

Jerry Friedman filted:

>
>On Mar 11, 5:42=A0pm, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>[test of religious knowledge]
>
>> I aced it, but with a quasi-informed guess on The Great Awakening, of
>> which I hadn't heard. There's a well-known British Olympian named
>> Jonathan Edwards, and he comes from a low-church Anglican family, and
>> the answer was clearly going to be some kind of Christian. Maybe
>> Olympic Jonathan was named after this Jonathan; couldn't be Graham,
>> never heard of the other one, so "Click".
>
>For those unfamiliar with Jonathan Edwards, he's most famous (perhaps
>unfairly) for his sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God". If
>you need to be cheered up, it's available on many Web pages. Here it
>is with long esses and everything:
>

>http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3D1053&context=3D=

>etas
>
>Keep reading till you feel better.

He can't even run his own life...I'll be damned if he'll run mine....

Sorry, but that's the only Jonathan Edwards that's had any effect on me....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Steve Hayes]

And anthropology is the discipline that, historically, allowed free rein to
the widest range of cultural prejudices while pretending to be "scientific".

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 01:30:39 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:


>>That group labelled "social sciences" horrifies me: anthropology may
>>be a science, but none of the others is. Disciplines, no doubt; but
>>not sciences.
>>
>General Rule: Disciplines with "science" in the name are not sciences.
>
>That rule was passed on to me by a computer scientist. He considered
>that Computer Science straddles the science/non-science boundary.

Of course if you go by old fashioned usage, then you should not only use
"humanities" in the old sense, but "science" as well. Many European languages
still use "science" in the old sense, like Russian "nauka".

This sometimes causes mistranslation, as something translated into English as
"scientific paper", when the subject of the paper is one of the humanities,
might be better translated as "academic paper" or "scholarly paper".

[Steve Hayes]

Much more common in Namibia, and they only use the four square inches from the
middle of the back. The rest of the animal is tossed out.

I used to be reminded of it in "Leisure-suit Larry in the land of the lounge
lizards" when he wondered how many naugas gave their all for the door
covering.

[Paul Wolff]

In message <aq7agf...@mid.individual.net>, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> writes

No dere boy div was praktised at st custards too.
--
Paul

[Cheryl]

I'd heard of Maimonides, but all I know about the Great Awakening is
that it was a Protestant popular religious movement that swept the US a
couple of centuries ago.

--
Cheryl

[Cheryl]

On 2013-03-11 10:34 PM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:
>
>> Well, I got them all right, but it doesn't prove anything. To start
>> with, it is biassed towards Americans with at least three questions
>> about the American Constitution. In addition, amongst a whole load
>> of very easy questions, there were a few very obscure things. I have
>> never heard of Maimonides nor of the Great Awakening.
>
> I'll give you the Great Awakening, but never having heard of Rabbi
> Moses ben Maimon, the "Rambam" to Jews and Moses Maimonides to the
> goyim, is kinda like never having heard of Augustine. I'd expect him
> to be probably the second-most-recognized Jewish philosopher, after
> Hillel.
>
> Out of curiosity, in your comparative religion classes (assuming you
> had them), how was Judaism presented? It would seem to be hard to
> describe rabbincal (that is, post-Temple) Judaism without reference to
> Maimonides' 13 principles of faith.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_principles_of_faith#Maimonides.27_13_principles_of_faith
>

I never took a comparative religion class - anything I know about any
religion other than the one I was raised in I picked up casually.

I knew Maimonides was a famous rabbi, but I couldn't have told you he
had 13 principles of faith.

--
Cheryl

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

I had heard of Maimonides but not in any formal or informal "learning
context". I just came across the name and remembered it because it was,
to me, distinctive and therefore memorable. I know nothing about
Maimonides. I had a distant memory of the name "the Great Awakening" but
knew no details. I now know slightly more after a very superficial skim
across the Wikipedia article.

[Peter Moylan]

On 12/03/13 05:59, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 10:58:19 -0700, Skitt <ski...@comcast.net> wrote:

>> Speaking of which, here's a little quiz to test that knowledge.
>>
>> http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0105/Are-you-smarter-than-an-atheist-A-religious-quiz/When-does-the-Jewish-Sabbath-begin
>>
> Worryingly, I scored 30 out of 32. I must try less hard.
>
> I failed on the head of the Greek Gods and the leader of The Great
> Awakening questions.

I too got 30 out of 32, although I don't think I would have persisted if
I'd known that the quiz was designed to take you through it so slowly. I
don't have a clue what the Great Awakening was, and am not motivated to
try to find out. I should have known who Maimonides was, and I admit to
a lack in my education on that score.

It's not at all surprising that atheists score better than Christians on
that quiz. (I don't feel qualified to comment on Jews and Mormons.) In
my case, I grew up with a religion, and discarded it only after
carefully looking at the evidence and putting some effort into deciding
what I really believed. That's not unusual for an atheist; most of us, I
suspect, hold that position as a result of conscious decisions and
careful thought. In contrast, the great majority of Christians are
Christians because that's what their parents were. Some of them gave
careful thought to their beliefs, but I suspect that the majority don't
have considered beliefs, but just accept what they have been told.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Peter Moylan]

On 12/03/13 09:25, Cheryl wrote:

> I got 30 - the leader of the Great Awakening and (rather stupidly) the
> majority religion in Indonesia were the ones I missed. I thought about
> the correct answer for Indonesia, and then thought I must be wrong
> because if they were the majority, what was all the unrest about?

The unrest is because, over time, Indonesia has gobbled up most of the
territory in the region, without giving consideration as to whether the
people there really want to be Indonesian. There's a big mix of
cultures, not always compatible in mindset with the dominant Javanese. A
history of oppressive leaders hasn't helped.

As a result, you get subgroups pushing for independence. The best-known
example is Timor Leste, a.k.a. East Timor, but there are others. It's
likely, in my opinion, that Aceh will eventually break away. Papua
probably won't, because of the Indonesian strategy of bringing in other
ethnic groups to dilute the Papuan population. (But the UK tried this in
Northern Ireland, and Israel is trying it in the West Bank, and in
neither case did the strategy bring peace; so maybe the conflict will
continue to simmer.)

In some cases you have a mainly Christian subculture wanting to separate
from the dominant Muslim country, but I think that's coincidence. It's
not really about religion.

[Peter Moylan]

On 12/03/13 08:58, musika wrote:
> On 11/03/2013 20:01, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> Weird set-up, where you have to hit "next" twice to get to the next
>> question, waiting for the ads both times, and weird ways of asking
>> questions: "Do you happen to know which of these is the king of gods
>> in ancient Greek mythology?" (Zeus, Mars, Apollo, Don't know) and
>> "Please tell me which of the following is NOT one of the Ten
>> Commandments?" and "Would you tell me if Mother Teresa was ...(Jewish,
>> Catholic, Hindu, Mormon, Buddhist, Don't know)". I hope neither of
>> those catches on.
>
> Well, the first "next" takes you to the answer and the second "next" to
> the next question. I don't find that weird.
>
Perhaps not weird, but definitely annoying. There's a significant delay
between hitting "next" and seeing the next page. If all the questions
had been on the same page I would have finished the quiz in well under a
minute. As it was, it must have taken about 15 minutes.

[Cheryl]

Thanks for the explanation. It's not a part of the world I know a lot about.

--
Cheryl

[John Ritson]

The Olympian Jonathan Edwards was a very devout - not competing on the
Sabbath - Christian but subsequently lost his faith.

[Peter Brooks]

On Mar 12, 1:09 pm, Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 12/03/13 05:59, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>

> > On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 10:58:19 -0700, Skitt <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> Speaking of which, here's a little quiz to test that knowledge.
>

> >>http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0105/Are-you-smarter-than-an-atheis...

>
> > Worryingly, I scored 30 out of 32. I must try less hard.
>
> > I failed on the head of the Greek Gods and the leader of The Great
> > Awakening questions.
>
> I too got 30 out of 32, although I don't think I would have persisted if
> I'd known that the quiz was designed to take you through it so slowly. I
> don't have a clue what the Great Awakening was, and am not motivated to
> try to find out. I should have known who Maimonides was, and I admit to
> a lack in my education on that score.
>
> It's not at all surprising that atheists score better than Christians on
> that quiz. (I don't feel qualified to comment on Jews and Mormons.) In
> my case, I grew up with a religion, and discarded it only after
> carefully looking at the evidence and putting some effort into deciding
> what I really believed. That's not unusual for an atheist; most of us, I
> suspect, hold that position as a result of conscious decisions and
> careful thought. In contrast, the great majority of Christians are
> Christians because that's what their parents were. Some of them gave
> careful thought to their beliefs, but I suspect that the majority don't
> have considered beliefs, but just accept what they have been told.
>

Indeed. Though, with my love of cathedrals, plainsong, hymns, the
cadences of the Book of Common Prayer and Ecclesiastes, I know that
I'm a CofE atheist.

[Cheryl]

Give it a generation or two and you'll have atheists who haven't given
much thought to their position and just accept what their parents have
told them.

--
Cheryl

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:

> General Rule: Disciplines with "science" in the name are not sciences.
>
> That rule was passed on to me by a computer scientist. He considered
> that Computer Science straddles the science/non-science boundary.

There are two issues here. The first is whether you consider "math"
to be a subset of "science" or something different. And the second is
that the discipline includes a lot of what is more properly "software
engineering" and "computer engineering".

On the research end, there's definitely a lot of science, in the sense
of constructing and testing models and setting up, running, and
analyzing experiments to try to get an understanding of how things
work, but I definitely go back and forth between describing myself as
a "computer scientest" and a "software engineer" based on what sort of
thing I've been working on.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |There is no such thing as bad data,
SF Bay Area (1982-) |only data from bad homes.

[CT]

Peter Moylan wrote:

> If all the questions had been on the same page I would have finished
> the quiz in well under a minute.

+1

> As it was, it must have taken about 15 minutes.

As it was, I gave up.

--
Chris

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

That was my problem. That's the Second Great Awakening. The first
one predated the US (1730s).

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |It does me no injury for my neighbor
SF Bay Area (1982-) |to say there are twenty gods, or no
Chicago (1964-1982) |God.
| Thomas Jefferson
evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Jerry Friedman]

Indeed. But even there hadn't been such a long delay, I'd think they
could have put the answer and the next question on the same page.

--
Jerry Friedman