Nationality, citizenship

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I have recently been editing a lot of Wikipedia articles about specific
scientists.

Many of them contain what they call Infoboxes, where one can put
answers to a standard set of categories, which can be left blank where
the answer is unknown or of no importance. Two of the categories are
"citizenship" and "nationality", and the guidelines say that these
should not be used except when "necessary". They don't define
"necessary" but I interpret it as "not obvious". Not everyone pays any
attention to the guidelines. So, for example, if someone has

birthplace: somewhere in the UK
deathplace: somewhere in the UK
education: one or more universities in the UK
work places: one or more laboratories in the UK

I don't find it useful to give either citizenship or nationality.
Occasionally people take it to another degree of absurdity, writing,
for example,

Citizenship: UK (or British)
Nationality: Scottish

Anyway, the question I'm asking the learned participants here is
whether they regard citizenship and nationality as clearly different
from one another. I regard them as essentially the same, though
sometimes one term is more appropriate than the other.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

[HenHanna]

> scientists. ------------ Like WHO ???


some Cases where one's nationality and citizenship might differ:

Dual Citizenship: Some individuals hold citizenship in two countries
simultaneously, resulting in different nationalities and citizenship
rights in each.

Statelessness: People without recognized nationality by any state lack
certain legal protections and face challenges accessing basic rights.

Naturalization: When someone voluntarily acquires citizenship in a new
country, their nationality remains linked to their birth nation while
gaining the new citizenship's rights.

Children of Diplomats: Born abroad to diplomats or government officials,
their nationality might differ from the birth country due to their
parents' special status.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <l3253u...@mid.individual.net>,

Athel Cornish-Bowden <m...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Anyway, the question I'm asking the learned participants here is
>whether they regard citizenship and nationality as clearly different
>from one another. I regard them as essentially the same, though
>sometimes one term is more appropriate than the other.

There is a very legalistic distinction between the two that sometimes
matters. There are people who are US nationals but who are not US
citizens (notably, people born in certain "unincorporated"
territories). In places that do not obsreve /ius soli/ there may be
sizeable populations of non-citizen nationals.

I think in general terms the distinction is that nationality is a
matter of international diplomacy and citizenship is a matter of
domestic politics -- but that's not universally observed either.
Nationality is what it says on your passport; citizenship is where you
vote (or would if qualified); domicile is where you live and pay
taxes. (Which is why companies have nationality and domicile but not
citizenship.)

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wol...@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

[occam]

On 13/02/2024 22:40, HenHanna wrote:

>
>> I have recently been editing a lot of Wikipedia articles about specific

>> scientists. ------------ Like WHO ???
>

<Hen Hanna did not write the following>

>
> some Cases where one's nationality and citizenship might differ:
>
> Dual Citizenship: Some individuals hold citizenship in two countries
> simultaneously, resulting in different nationalities and citizenship
> rights in each.
>
> Statelessness: People without recognized nationality by any state lack
> certain legal protections and face challenges accessing basic rights.
>
> Naturalization: When someone voluntarily acquires citizenship in a new
> country, their nationality remains linked to their birth nation while
> gaining the new citizenship's rights.
>
> Children of Diplomats: Born abroad to diplomats or government officials,
> their nationality might differ from the birth country due to their
> parents' special status.
>

When you [cluckin Hen] cut and paste an AI generated piece of text, the
least you could do is to acknowledge the source. You are an incoherent
airhead who could not string together two thoughts together, let alone
write four well-formatted sentences that make sense.

[AI watchtower]

[Peter Moylan]

On 14/02/24 09:36, occam wrote:
> On 13/02/2024 22:40, HenHanna wrote:

> <Hen Hanna did not write the following>

[snip]

> When you [cluckin Hen] cut and paste an AI generated piece of text,
> the least you could do is to acknowledge the source. You are an
> incoherent airhead who could not string together two thoughts
> together, let alone write four well-formatted sentences that make
> sense.
>
> [AI watchtower]

Thanks for the explanation. For a minute there I thought that the Hen
had had an intelligence upgrade after switching from Google Groups to
Usenet. The posting, although waffly, was at least to the point.

I hadn't thought of an AI as the explanation. In hindsight, I should
have detected the fact that waffle -- a list of facts without much
advancing the discussion -- probably implies Artificial Irrelevancy.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

[Silvano]

Garrett Wollman hat am 13.02.2024 um 22:43 geschrieben:

> In article <l3253u...@mid.individual.net>,
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <m...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Anyway, the question I'm asking the learned participants here is
>> whether they regard citizenship and nationality as clearly different
>>from one another. I regard them as essentially the same, though
>> sometimes one term is more appropriate than the other.
>
> There is a very legalistic distinction between the two that sometimes
> matters. There are people who are US nationals but who are not US
> citizens (notably, people born in certain "unincorporated"
> territories). In places that do not obsreve /ius soli/ there may be
> sizeable populations of non-citizen nationals.
>
> I think in general terms the distinction is that nationality is a
> matter of international diplomacy and citizenship is a matter of
> domestic politics -- but that's not universally observed either.
> Nationality is what it says on your passport; citizenship is where you
> vote (or would if qualified); domicile is where you live and pay
> taxes. (Which is why companies have nationality and domicile but not
> citizenship.)

I tend to disagree, but it probably depends on the country, the legal
definition in different countries and languages and possibly the
existence of false friends (see my last paragraph).
For example:
Citizenship - Russian
Nationality - about 100 possible answers

On my own Italian/EU passport:
Cittadinanza (which I'd translate as citizenship, because I have full
voting rights in Italy at all levels - city district, city, province,
region, country, EU - the only problem being that in the first four
cases I have to go there to cast my ballot), nationality, nationalité.

Please note that the Italian language does have the word "nazionalità".
Then, if you wish, read the beginning of
<https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazionalit%C3%A0> and compare it to the
beginning of <https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cittadinanza>.

[occam]

On 14/02/2024 00:00, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 14/02/24 09:36, occam wrote:
>> On 13/02/2024 22:40, HenHanna wrote:
>
>> <Hen Hanna did not write the following>
>
> [snip]
>
>> When you [cluckin Hen] cut and paste an AI generated piece of text,
>> the least you could do is to acknowledge the source. You are an
>> incoherent airhead who could not string together two thoughts
>> together, let alone write four well-formatted sentences that make
>> sense.
>>
>> [AI watchtower]
>
> Thanks for the explanation. For a minute there I thought that the Hen
> had had an intelligence upgrade after switching from Google Groups to
> Usenet. The posting, although waffly, was at least to the point.

That's AI for you. It produces a synthesis of everything everyone has
written, without adding a new perspective.

>
> I hadn't thought of an AI as the explanation. In hindsight, I should
> have detected the fact that waffle -- a list of facts without much
> advancing the discussion -- probably implies Artificial Irrelevancy.
>

Yes, alas, Hen has discovered how to use Thunderbird to access usenet.
(A visit to the NG <alt.comp.software.thunderbird> will confirm my
statement. ) She has learned to weaponise the tool to continue spreading
her half-baked messages on usenet.

[Hibou]

I think I see them as different, even though my passport conflates them.
It says "Nationality: British Citizen". Being a British citizen, and not
for example a British overseas citizen, gives me important rights to
entry, residence, and so on:

'Categories of British nationality' -
<https://www.claims.co.uk/knowledge-base/immigration-law/uk-citizenship>

I see 'citizenship' as being legal, 'nationality' as more cultural. A
naturalised immigrant might say, for example, that he or she is
Franco-British.

I am also a subject of the King, of course. I'm not entirely happy about
being a subject, but I can't say he bothers me much day to day. (If I'd
been a bluebottle in England, the oath would have bothered me....

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_oath#England_and_Wales>)

[J. J. Lodder]

Just curious, how do you 'weaponise' a newsclient?
Can I get it to shoot back?


Jan

[occam]

It's an English word that means to take a benign tool and (ab)use it for
offensive purposes. It does not need to be a physical attack. It can be
verbal, textual, or (in this case) nonsensical posts.

Don't you have a Dutch word for it? (Don't make me google it.)

[Jerry Friedman]

...

I might say that A. Cornish-Bowden's citizenship is French but his
nationality is British. This non-legal use of "nationality" is or was
pretty common in the U.S.

--
Jerry Friedman

[occam]

Hmm. I have a Luxembourgish passport, in addition to my British one. In
it, it clearly identifies me of "Nationalité: Louxembougeoise".

Citizenship is not even mentioned.

Vive les Luxembourgeoisies ! (I'm kidding.)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Good point. You've prompted me to see what my passports say. My British
passport says that I'm a British citizen, my French passport says that
I have nationalité française. In addition to those, my wife has a
passport that says that she has nacionalidad chilena.

>
> Citizenship is not even mentioned.
>
> Vive les Luxembourgeoisies ! (I'm kidding.)

--
Athel cb

[Sam Plusnet]

On 14-Feb-24 9:18, occam wrote:
> On 14/02/2024 00:00, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 14/02/24 09:36, occam wrote:
>>> On 13/02/2024 22:40, HenHanna wrote:
>>
>>> <Hen Hanna did not write the following>
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> When you [cluckin Hen] cut and paste an AI generated piece of text,
>>> the least you could do is to acknowledge the source. You are an
>>> incoherent airhead who could not string together two thoughts
>>> together, let alone write four well-formatted sentences that make
>>> sense.
>>>
>>> [AI watchtower]
>>
>> Thanks for the explanation. For a minute there I thought that the Hen
>> had had an intelligence upgrade after switching from Google Groups to
>> Usenet. The posting, although waffly, was at least to the point.
>
> That's AI for you. It produces a synthesis of everything everyone has
> written, without adding a new perspective.

I note that Amazon has taken to using AI to 'synthesize' the various
reviews of a product.
The AI produces a lot of garbage - but then there's a pretty high
garbage content to some of the 'real' reviews it has swallowed.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Peter Moylan]

On 14/02/24 23:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>> Yes, alas, Hen has discovered how to use Thunderbird to access usenet.
>> (A visit to the NG <alt.comp.software.thunderbird> will confirm my
>> statement. ) She has learned to weaponise the tool to continue spreading
>> her half-baked messages on usenet.
>
> Just curious, how do you 'weaponise' a newsclient?
> Can I get it to shoot back?

That's what killfiles are for.

[Peter Moylan]

Here's a rather different example. These days there is a growing
tendency, certainly in Australia but I think also in some other places,
for people with indigenous ancestry to identify with a "nation" that
derives from traditional tribal boundaries.

[J. J. Lodder]

What makes you think I don't know that?
I was remarking on your abuse of the term.

> It does not need to be a physical attack. It can be
> verbal, textual, or (in this case) nonsensical posts.

It isn't usually applied to tools such as newsclients.
You can't 'weaponise' a hammer either.
Even when you use one to knock in someone's brains
it is still just a hammer, not a weaponised one.

> Don't you have a Dutch word for it? (Don't make me google it.)

No need to. There is no really good term, so Google won't help.
Close, but not quite right, are 'militariseren' en 'bewapenen'.
(but those correspond with 'to militarise' and 'to arm'.

A good transation would be 'verwapenen', but that word is rarely used.
It may come into use, if Anglosaxon fad for 'to weaponise' persists,

Jan

[Madhu]

* Athel Cornish-Bowden <l34c22FmccsU1 @mid.individual.net> :
Wrote on Wed, 14 Feb 2024 18:37:05 +0100:

> On 2024-02-14 14:55:31 +0000, occam said:
>
>> On 14/02/2024 15:46, Jerry Friedman wrote:

>>> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 2:41:05?AM UTC-7, Hibou wrote:
>>>> Le 13/02/2024 ? 21:26, Athel Cornish-Bowden a ?crit :
[...]

>>>>> answer is unknown or of no importance. Two of the categories are
>>>>> "citizenship" and "nationality", and the guidelines say that these
>>>>> should not be used except when "necessary". They don't define
>>>>> "necessary" but I interpret it as "not obvious". Not everyone pays any
>>>>> attention to the guidelines. So, for example, if someone has
>>>>> birthplace: somewhere in the UK
>>>>> deathplace: somewhere in the UK
>>>>> education: one or more universities in the UK
>>>>> work places: one or more laboratories in the UK
>>>>> I don't find it useful to give either citizenship or nationality.
>>>>> Occasionally people take it to another degree of absurdity,
>>>>> writing, for example,
>>>>> Citizenship: UK (or British)
>>>>> Nationality: Scottish

I imagine sometime in the last century it would be
"UK National" and "British Subject"

India doesn't have dual citizenship, I never got into it but I think it
would be to wrong to identify former Indian Citizens (who have given up
citizenship) as Indian Nationals. I always identified as an Indian
National = Indian citizen.

>>>>> Anyway, the question I'm asking the learned participants here is
>>>>> whether they regard citizenship and nationality as clearly
>>>>> different from one another. I regard them as essentially the same,
>>>>> though sometimes one term is more appropriate than the other.
>>>> I think I see them as different, even though my passport conflates
>>>> them. It says "Nationality: British Citizen". Being a British
>>>> citizen, and not for example a British overseas citizen, gives me
>>>> important rights to entry, residence, and so on: 'Categories of
>>>> British nationality' -
>>>> <https://www.claims.co.uk/knowledge-base/immigration-law/uk-citizenship>
>>>> I see 'citizenship' as being legal, 'nationality' as more
>>>> cultural. A naturalised immigrant might say, for example, that he
>>>> or she is Franco-British.
>>> ... I might say that A. Cornish-Bowden's citizenship is French but
>>> his nationality is British. This non-legal use of "nationality" is
>>> or was pretty common in the U.S.
>> Hmm. I have a Luxembourgish passport, in addition to my British

>> one. In it, it clearly identifies me of "Nationalit?:

>> Louxembougeoise".
> Good point. You've prompted me to see what my passports say. My
> British passport says that I'm a British citizen, my French passport

> says that I have nationalit? fran?aise. In addition to those, my wife

[Snidely]

With a quizzical look, Peter Moylan observed:

> On 14/02/24 23:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>
>>> Yes, alas, Hen has discovered how to use Thunderbird to access usenet.
>>> (A visit to the NG <alt.comp.software.thunderbird> will confirm my
>>> statement. ) She has learned to weaponise the tool to continue spreading
>>> her half-baked messages on usenet.
>>
>> Just curious, how do you 'weaponise' a newsclient?
>> Can I get it to shoot back?
>
> That's what killfiles are for.

I'd say killfiles are more like a tank trap than a gun.

/dps

--
"Inviting people to laugh with you while you are laughing at yourself
is a good thing to do, You may be a fool but you're the fool in
charge." -- Carl Reiner

[J. J. Lodder]

Snidely <snide...@gmail.com> wrote:

> With a quizzical look, Peter Moylan observed:
> > On 14/02/24 23:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> >
> >>> Yes, alas, Hen has discovered how to use Thunderbird to access usenet.
> >>> (A visit to the NG <alt.comp.software.thunderbird> will confirm my
> >>> statement. ) She has learned to weaponise the tool to continue spreading
> >>> her half-baked messages on usenet.
> >>
> >> Just curious, how do you 'weaponise' a newsclient?
> >> Can I get it to shoot back?
> >
> > That's what killfiles are for.
>
> I'd say killfiles are more like a tank trap than a gun.

But no real tank has ever disappeared into one. TThey jus drive by.
They are more like sandboxes to put your head in,
(like a true ostrich)

Jan