Postman vs. Mailman
Richard Fontana
materials from several decades ago, such as the film _The Postman Always
Rings Twice_ (1946) (based on a James M. Cain novel, but I don't know its
publication date), the early Motown song "Please Mr. Postman" (1961) by
the Marvelettes, and the Elvis Presley song "Return to
Sender" (1962) (which features the line "I gave a letter to the postman").
Now I don't know about you but in my dialect of AmE the standard word for
a male letter carrier employed by the U.S. Postal Service, or the
equivalent person in other countries, is "mailman" ['me@l,m&n]. It's not
like I never encountered "postman", but it's the kind of word no one would
have naturally used in my Native Dialect Region. It seems sort of
old-fashioned or literary or British.
So I'm wondering this: What are the implications of the 1940s-early
1960s examples of the use of "postman"? Why wasn't it "Please
Mr. Mailman" or _The Mailman Always Rings Twice_? More specifically:
Has "postman" been current in modern times all along, in place of
"mailman", in some regions of the US (say, Detroit, Tennessee, California,
etc.)?
Is it Americans' experience that "postman" was once a more
commonly used term but "mailman" gradually replaced it?
Is my NDR unusual in using "mailman" instead of "postman"?
Is there some subtle distinction between "postman" and "mailman" (perhaps
'postman' being a bit more formal?) that I'm ignoring or missing? I
assume that "postman" is the traditional BrE term, so is
the explanation just that for a long time Americans were aware that the
Brits said "postman" and so "postman" seemed sort of more proper than the
more domestic "mailman"?
In short, WITDWTT?
DJR
> Is there some subtle distinction between "postman" and "mailman" (perhaps
> 'postman' being a bit more formal?) that I'm ignoring or missing? I
> assume that "postman" is the traditional BrE term
Yes.
--
David
The address is valid, but I will change it at to keep ahead of the
spammers.
Spooky Guy Next Door
Fontana (rfon...@wesleyan.edu) wrote:
> Is there some subtle distinction between "postman" and "mailman" (perhaps
> 'postman' being a bit more formal?) that I'm ignoring or missing? I
> assume that "postman" is the traditional BrE term, so is
> the explanation just that for a long time Americans were aware that the
> Brits said "postman" and so "postman" seemed sort of more proper than the
> more domestic "mailman"?
FWIW, I know I've always used "postman" (or, more accurately, "postie").
> In short, WITDWTT?
PIJT, but WTF? IATHEAAA!
--
The ideas expressed in the above post are my own, with the possible
exception of the one involving a scarecrow and a stick of butter.
blog - http://www.cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/
cyberfuddle - http://www.cyberfuddle.com/
learn HTML - http://smiley.vh.mewl.net/markhtml/
Bob Stahl
> Richard Fontana:
>>Is there some subtle distinction between "postman" and
>>"mailman" (perhaps 'postman' being a bit more formal?)
>>that I'm ignoring or missing? I assume that "postman"
>>is the traditional BrE term
>Yes.
Google gives
"letter carrier":"postman":"mailman"::1:10:100.
"postmistress":"postman":"postmaster"::1:5:10.
Despite obvious bias in these results, I use these terms
in roughly these proportions. Most of my mail comes to
PO boxes; some to the door.
---
Bob Stahl
Pan
Fontana) wrote:
>It came to my attention that the word "postman" is used in some cultural
>materials from several decades ago, such as the film _The Postman Always
>Rings Twice_ (1946) (based on a James M. Cain novel, but I don't know its
>publication date), the early Motown song "Please Mr. Postman" (1961) by
>the Marvelettes, and the Elvis Presley song "Return to
>Sender" (1962) (which features the line "I gave a letter to the postman").
>
>Now I don't know about you but in my dialect of AmE the standard word for
>a male letter carrier employed by the U.S. Postal Service, or the
>equivalent person in other countries, is "mailman" ['me@l,m&n]. It's not
>like I never encountered "postman", but it's the kind of word no one would
>have naturally used in my Native Dialect Region.
I would corroborate this.
> It seems sort of
>old-fashioned or literary or British.
[snip]
Or, perhaps, just more formal, as you suggest.
Michael
To reply by email, please take out the TRASH (so to speak). Personal messages only, please!
R H Draney
Fontana) wrote:
>Now I don't know about you but in my dialect of AmE the standard word for
>a male letter carrier employed by the U.S. Postal Service, or the
>equivalent person in other countries, is "mailman" ['me@l,m&n]. It's not
>like I never encountered "postman", but it's the kind of word no one would
>have naturally used in my Native Dialect Region. It seems sort of
>old-fashioned or literary or British.
As has probably been remarked here before, in the UK the Royal Mail
delivers the post, in the US the Post Office delivers the mail....
>Is there some subtle distinction between "postman" and "mailman" (perhaps
>'postman' being a bit more formal?) that I'm ignoring or missing? I
>assume that "postman" is the traditional BrE term, so is
>the explanation just that for a long time Americans were aware that the
>Brits said "postman" and so "postman" seemed sort of more proper than the
>more domestic "mailman"?
One problem with "mailman" in recent years has been the insistence of
some that it sounds like it excludes women twice..."mailwoman" sounds
like somebody's been reading Joanna Russ and is making a funny...and
there's the old joke about "A: That's a mail plane / B: Gee, you've
got good eyesight!"....
Now they're called "letter carriers", which suggests first that they
won't deliver parcels, second that they're some sort of Vanna
White-wannabe, and third that they might infect you with a disease...
...in light of the last few months, maybe that last one's not so far
out after all...we might see a new euphemism to take its place in the
near future....r
ntaylor
>Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary, Richard
>Fontana (rfon...@wesleyan.edu) wrote:
>
>> Is there some subtle distinction between "postman" and "mailman" (perhaps
>> 'postman' being a bit more formal?) that I'm ignoring or missing? I
>> assume that "postman" is the traditional BrE term, so is
>> the explanation just that for a long time Americans were aware that the
>> Brits said "postman" and so "postman" seemed sort of more proper than the
>> more domestic "mailman"?
>
>FWIW, I know I've always used "postman" (or, more accurately, "postie").
>
Postie, Postie do your duty.
Take this to my *blue-eyed cutie.
*Mulitple choice.
Joe Manfre
> One problem with "mailman" in recent years has been the insistence
> of some that it sounds like it excludes women twice..."mailwoman"
> sounds like somebody's been reading Joanna Russ and is making a
> funny...and there's the old joke about "A: That's a mail plane / B:
> Gee, you've got good eyesight!"....
No, no, it's not mailwoman, it's femail-man. Don't you watch The
Simpsons?
JM
--
807
Robert Lipton
French letter carriers?
Bob
Robert Bannister
> Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary, Richard
> Fontana (rfon...@wesleyan.edu) wrote:
>
> > Is there some subtle distinction between "postman" and "mailman" (perhaps
> > 'postman' being a bit more formal?) that I'm ignoring or missing? I
> > assume that "postman" is the traditional BrE term, so is
> > the explanation just that for a long time Americans were aware that the
> > Brits said "postman" and so "postman" seemed sort of more proper than the
> > more domestic "mailman"?
>
> FWIW, I know I've always used "postman" (or, more accurately, "postie").
>
> > In short, WITDWTT?
>
> PIJT, but WTF? IATHEAAA!
I do notice kids saying 'mailman'. Funny thing is, it's usually a female, but
that's just the way it sounds.
--
Rob Bannister, W Australia
Mark Brader
> Now they're called "letter carriers", which suggests first that they
Well, once it's clear that we're talking about mailpeople, the phrase
can be shortened to "carrier". I think I've seen this in both Canadian
and US contexts.
Is "letter carrier" used in Britain too, and if so, is it shortened to
"carrier" at times?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Don't be silly -- send it to Canada"
m...@vex.net -- British postal worker
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Maria Conlon
Richard Fontana wrote
[...]
>Has "postman" been current in modern times all along, in place of
>"mailman", in some regions of the US (say, Detroit, Tennessee,
California,
>etc.)?
"Postman" has never been used in any area I've lived in (TN,
Pittsburgh, Detroit). It was always "mailman" until it became
"letter carrier" (during the 1970s? 1980s?).
>Is it Americans' experience that "postman" was once a more
>commonly used term but "mailman" gradually replaced it?
Not in my lifetime. It's possible that "postman" was the usual term
before the 1940s, but I don't know if that was the case or not.
>Is my NDR unusual in using "mailman" instead of "postman"?
No.
>Is there some subtle distinction between "postman" and "mailman"
(perhaps
>'postman' being a bit more formal?) that I'm ignoring or missing?
I
>assume that "postman" is the traditional BrE term, so is
>the explanation just that for a long time Americans were aware that
the
>Brits said "postman" and so "postman" seemed sort of more proper
than the
>more domestic "mailman"?
"Postman" sounds British to me, or "more formal" for Americans. If
"postman" was ever common in the US, I would think it would have
been along the East Coast. Actually, the Northeast Coast. Just a
guess.
>In short, WITDWTT?
Huh? (What Is The Deal With This Term???)
Maria (Tootsie)
Tony Cooper
> Huh? (What Is The Deal With This Term???)
>
> Maria (Tootsie)
Edgy, edgy, edgy.
--
Tony Cooper aka: tony_co...@yahoo.com
Song of the Day: "Two Cigarettes in an Ashtray" Patsy
Cline
Maria Conlon
Tony Cooper wrote
>Maria Conlon wrote:
>> Huh? (What Is The Deal With This Term???)
>>
>> Maria (Tootsie)
>Edgy, edgy, edgy.
>
>Tony Cooper aka: tony_co...@yahoo.com
>
>Song of the Day: "Two Cigarettes in an Ashtray" Patsy
>Cline
Nowhere close to edgy yet, Tony. And people are going to get tired
of hearing about how many days it's been. I think I'll drop it and
only say something if I break down and have a cig or if I reach 2003
without breaking down. I am anxious for Spehro to win his bet -- if
he wins, that means I have won (and have saved a ton of money in the
meantime).
Maria (Tootsie)
Bill Schnakenberg
The person that delivers the mail to my rural mailbox in NY is a woman and I
refer to her as the 'mail lady'.
My wife avoids the problem entirely by just asking "Did the mail come?"
--
Bill
Spehro Pefhany
> Postie, Postie do your duty.
> Take this to my *blue-eyed cutie.
"Postie" is more appropriate in Canada, as the French name of Canada Post
is Postes Canada. Kind of like the "chicken milk" we enjoy around
Christmas time.
Best regards,
--
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Spehro Pefhany
> The person that delivers the mail to my rural mailbox in NY is a woman and I
> refer to her as the 'mail lady'.
> My wife avoids the problem entirely by just asking "Did the mail come?"
I suggest answering either "Yes" or "No, it's not even breathing hard".
Richard Fontana
>
>Richard Fontana wrote
>
>>In short, WITDWTT?
>
>Huh? (What Is The Deal With This Term???)
Well, I say it officially stands for "What is the deal with that
thing?" and you have to pretend you're Jerry Seinfeld when you say
it. But here I thought of it more as "What is the deal with this thing?".
David Squire
> The renowned ntaylor <tay...@htan.org> wrote:
>
> > Postie, Postie do your duty.
> > Take this to my *blue-eyed cutie.
>
> "Postie" is more appropriate in Canada, as the French name of Canada Post
> is Postes Canada. Kind of like the "chicken milk" we enjoy around
> Christmas time.
"Postie" or "Posty" is common in Oz. Just another example of our predeliction
for creating affectionate diminutives - or indeed lengthenings.
Question: I recall reading an newpaper article a year or two ago in which a
linguist who was studying Australian english was interviewed. The linguist
claimed that Australian English had more of these affectionate shortenings and
lengthenings than any other form of English - and she (I think that it was a
woman) had a technical term for these things. I wish that I could remmember that
term. Can anyone help?
Cheers,
D.
Thomas A Lawson
Fontana) wrote:
This posting caused me to cast my mind back to my early years in
Kentucky.
We all knew what a postman was. We also knew what a mailman was.
But we would never _say_ "postman". Who wants to sound like a toff, a
word I didn't know then.
The subtle distinction may be a class thing, or a perceived class
thing.
Which reminds of the time, aged about eight, I asked mother:
"What is the difference between a "vayce" and a "vahz".
Her instant reply was (we are talking in 1940 money):
"If it costs more than ten dollars, it;s a "vahz".
Regards,
Tom Lawson
"There is always an easy solution to every human problem --
neat, plausible, and wrong."
- Henry Louis Mencken
Alan Jones
"Bill Schnakenberg" <will...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:3C4B8F7A...@frontiernet.net...
[...] The person that delivers the mail to my rural mailbox in NY is a woman
and I
> refer to her as the 'mail lady'.
> My wife avoids the problem entirely by just asking "Did the mail come?"
In UK the person is always the 'postman' or 'postwoman'. There is even a
children's TV entertainment and a song about "Postman Pat and his
black-and-white cat", but he's now not as popular as a newcomer "Bob the
Builder" (infant devotees of Bob wear little yellow plastic workmen's
helmets).
The letters etc. are indiscriminately called "the letters", "the mail" or
"the post".
Alan Jones
DJR
>
> R.H. Draney writes:
> > Now they're called "letter carriers", which suggests first that they
> > won't deliver parcels ...
>
> Well, once it's clear that we're talking about mailpeople, the phrase
> can be shortened to "carrier". I think I've seen this in both Canadian
> and US contexts.
>
> Is "letter carrier" used in Britain too, and if so, is it shortened to
> "carrier" at times?
No and No. At least, I've never heard these words. I can't speak for
the Southern Toffs (qv).
Matti Lamprhey
> Mark Brader wrote:
> > R.H. Draney writes (about postmen/mailmen):
> > > Now they're called "letter carriers", which suggests first that they
> > > won't deliver parcels ...
> >
> > Well, once it's clear that we're talking about mailpeople, the phrase
> > can be shortened to "carrier". I think I've seen this in both Canadian
> > and US contexts.
> >
> > Is "letter carrier" used in Britain too, and if so, is it shortened to
> > "carrier" at times?
>
> No and No. At least, I've never heard these words. I can't speak for
> the Southern Toffs (qv).
The term is used, even by Northern Yokels, but to describe organizations
rather than individuals. The Royal Mail is a letter carrier and a parcel
carrier. Parcel Force is not a letter carrier. The Royal Mail used to have
a monopoly on most of these aspects, but retains only vestiges of it.
Matti
John Dean
"ntaylor" <tay...@htan.org> wrote in message
news:3c4b6a5f...@news.CIS.DFN.DE...
I hope we're not forgetting
Postman Postman don't be slow
Be like Elvis, Go Man Go
SWALK (BURMA)
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
John Dean
"Alan Jones" <a...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:auQ28.9576$K35.1...@news1.cableinet.net...
>
> "Bill Schnakenberg" <will...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
> news:3C4B8F7A...@frontiernet.net...
> [...] The person that delivers the mail to my rural mailbox in NY is a
woman
> and I
> > refer to her as the 'mail lady'.
> > My wife avoids the problem entirely by just asking "Did the mail come?"
>
> In UK the person is always the 'postman' or 'postwoman'. There is even a
> children's TV entertainment and a song about "Postman Pat and his
> black-and-white cat", but he's now not as popular as a newcomer "Bob the
> Builder" (infant devotees of Bob wear little yellow plastic workmen's
> helmets).
>
Can we fix it? Yes we can
LarryLard
news:auQ28.9576$K35.1...@news1.cableinet.net...
>
> news:3C4B8F7A...@frontiernet.net...
> [...] The person that delivers the mail to my rural mailbox in NY is a
woman
> and I
> > refer to her as the 'mail lady'.
> > My wife avoids the problem entirely by just asking "Did the mail come?"
>
> In UK the person is always the 'postman' or 'postwoman'.
Fairly sure they are now officially the 'postie', and I am told this came
about when the Postman of the Year competition, as it was called then, was
won by a woman. Sounds believeable enough.
--
Larry Lard. Replies to group please.
Brian Wickham
wrote:
>Mark Brader wrote:
>>
>> R.H. Draney writes:
>> > Now they're called "letter carriers", which suggests first that they
>> > won't deliver parcels ...
>>
>> Well, once it's clear that we're talking about mailpeople, the phrase
>> can be shortened to "carrier". I think I've seen this in both Canadian
>> and US contexts.
>>
>> Is "letter carrier" used in Britain too, and if so, is it shortened to
>> "carrier" at times?
>
>No and No. At least, I've never heard these words. I can't speak for
>the Southern Toffs (qv).
>
>--
I've always heard "carrier" used to describe someone who spreads a
disease. Typhoid Mary is the stereotypical "carrier".
Brian Wickham
Donna Richoux
Yeah, them carrier pigeons spread the Great Plague all around.
Are you sure you never heard "carrier" used any *other* way? Fill in the
blank: aircraft _________.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Stephen Toogood
<a...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
--
Stephen Toogood
fruitbat
>
> "Postie" or "Posty" is common in Oz. Just another example of our predeliction
> for creating affectionate diminutives - or indeed lengthenings.
Every time I look at that word, I read it as "Potsie". It's driving me
nuts!
> Question: I recall reading an newpaper article a year or two ago in which a
> linguist who was studying Australian english was interviewed. The linguist
> claimed that Australian English had more of these affectionate shortenings and
> lengthenings than any other form of English - and she (I think that it was a
> woman) had a technical term for these things. I wish that I could remmember that
> term. Can anyone help?
Sorry, the only term I've ever used for it is "diminutive". Possibly
"pet name", but that's certainly not technical, and usually connotes
romantic involvement...
Diminutives seem to be very common in the North American hockey
community as well, but maybe it's just the local broadcasters here.
Jeff
Mike Page
<john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>I hope we're not forgetting
>
>Postman Postman don't be slow
>Be like Elvis, Go Man Go
>
>SWALK (BURMA)
And if you were lucky, SIAM.
Mike Page, BF(UU)
Let the ape escape for e-mail
Spooky Guy Next Door
(john...@frag.lineone.net) wrote:
I saw an episode of that yesterday. Bloody good show!
--
The ideas expressed in the above post are my own, with the possible
exception of the one involving a scarecrow and a stick of butter.
blog - http://www.cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/
cyberfuddle - http://www.cyberfuddle.com/
learn HTML - http://smiley.vh.mewl.net/markhtml/
Brian Wickham
wrote:
Excellent point Donna! But if you were to say that some person was a
carrier, most Americans would want to know, of what, and is it
dangerous. Unless that person were standing in front of them with a
mailbag and a blue uniform it would never occur to most Americans to
put the term "carrier" together with "postman". Remember, I'm not
talking about "mail carrier" but just plain "carrier".
Brian Wickham
David Squire
> David Squire <David....@csse.monash.edu.au> wrote:
> >
> > "Postie" or "Posty" is common in Oz. Just another example of our predeliction
> > for creating affectionate diminutives - or indeed lengthenings.
>
> Every time I look at that word, I read it as "Potsie". It's driving me
> nuts!
>
> > Question: I recall reading an newpaper article a year or two ago in which a
> > linguist who was studying Australian english was interviewed. The linguist
> > claimed that Australian English had more of these affectionate shortenings and
> > lengthenings than any other form of English - and she (I think that it was a
> > woman) had a technical term for these things. I wish that I could remmember that
> > term. Can anyone help?
>
> Sorry, the only term I've ever used for it is "diminutive". Possibly
> "pet name", but that's certainly not technical, and usually connotes
> romantic involvement...
Ah. But the result of the process to which I am referring is not always a diminutive.
For example, "John" can become "Johnno", "tin" -> "tinnie".
The term I am looking for was technical. I had never before encountered it.
Cheers,
D.
Pat Durkin
"Brian Wickham" <bwic...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3c4cb1bd...@news-server.nyc.rr.com...
> On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:59:44 +0100, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
> wrote:
>
> >Brian Wickham <bwic...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 09:23:40 +0000, DJR
<bass.a...@ntlworld.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Mark Brader wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> R.H. Draney writes:
> >> >> Is "letter carrier" used in Britain too, and if so, is it
shortened to
> >> >> "carrier" at times?
> >> >
> >> >No and No. At least, I've never heard these words. I can't
speak for
> >> >the Southern Toffs (qv).
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> I've always heard "carrier" used to describe someone who spreads
a
> >> disease. Typhoid Mary is the stereotypical "carrier".
> >
> >Yeah, them carrier pigeons spread the Great Plague all around.
> >
> >Are you sure you never heard "carrier" used any *other* way? Fill
in the
> >blank: aircraft _________.
>
> Excellent point Donna! But if you were to say that some person was
a
> carrier, most Americans would want to know, of what, and is it
> dangerous. Unless that person were standing in front of them with a
> mailbag and a blue uniform it would never occur to most Americans to
> put the term "carrier" together with "postman". Remember, I'm not
> talking about "mail carrier" but just plain "carrier".
When it comes right down to it, any public passenger vehicle is called
"common carrier". I am not clear as to whether all taxicabs or just
jitney-style cabs are included, nor if cruise ships and passenger
liners are included (since both cabs and ships may not be subject to
Federal law). Buses, airplanes and trains, however, are included, for
purposes of enforcing race discrimination laws, and for insurance
purposes.
Freight shippers are another thing, or the same. I don't know.
Pat
fruitbat
> fruitbat wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, the only term I've ever used for it is "diminutive".
>> Possibly "pet name", but that's certainly not technical, and
>> usually connotes romantic involvement...
>
> Ah. But the result of the process to which I am referring is not
> always a diminutive. For example, "John" can become "Johnno", "tin"
> -> "tinnie".
I understand it's not the term you're looking for, but I think the
examples you gave are still "diminutives". I think "diminutive" usually
refers not to the word itself being diminished, but the subject...
Jeff
David Squire
Yes, you're right. My Concise OED gives "duckling" as an example.
On the other hand, diminutives are not always affectionate. The term I am
trying to recall referred explicity to the *affectionate* lengthening or
shortening of words.
Cheers,
D.
felix
Scotland too.
One of my faves is the German 'loefling' meaning 'spoonling',
referring to a child who has been weaned onto solid food and is fed
with a spoon.
felix
Steve Hayes
>Now they're called "letter carriers", which suggests first that they
>won't deliver parcels, second that they're some sort of Vanna
>White-wannabe, and third that they might infect you with a disease...
>...in light of the last few months, maybe that last one's not so far
>out after all...we might see a new euphemism to take its place in the
>near future....r
My first cousin three times removed was described as a "letter carrier" in the
1871 census of Bristol, England, so they've been described as that for a long
time.
Who's Vanna White, and was he/she around in 1871?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Spehro Pefhany
> Is it Americans' experience that "postman" was once a more
> commonly used term but "mailman" gradually replaced it?
I recently used a mailing house in Los Angeles. Their confirmation email
stated:
Your mailing was delivered to the post office on 1/7/2002 and will be
distributed by uniformed agents of the federal government (postmen and
postwomen).
I first read the third word on the second line as "uninformed".
"Postwomen"? Hmm.
Harvey V
wrote:
-snip-
> I recently used a mailing house in Los Angeles. Their confirmation
> email stated:
>
> Your mailing was delivered to the post office on 1/7/2002 and
> will be distributed by uniformed agents of the federal
> government (postmen and postwomen).
>
> I first read the third word on the second line as "uninformed".
> "Postwomen"? Hmm.
I'm very surprised they haven't removed gender from the job description
-- I thought that had been done long ago for public agency positions.
--
Cheers,
Harvey
Joe Manfre
>>
>>In short, WITDWTT?
>
> What does "WITDWTT" stand for?
It's a rearranged version of "WWTTDIT", which stands for "What would
Tiny Tim do in Toronto?". A very useful question to ask oneself.
> Anyways, here's my opinion: I think "postman" and "mailman" are
> two completely different things. One time I was watching some talk
> show (I think Jerry Springer). The topic was "My Momma's A Ho".
> Anyways, one of the audience members told her that she was a nasty
> ass ho because she's "been around the block more times than the
> mailman and the postman combined".
Maybe the audience member actually said "the milkman and the postman
combined", since the person accused of being a ho would logically
be a Momma (if I may use the episode title to reason inductively)
and anyone old enough to be the mother of a person who could make
such an accusation must be old enough to remember the days when
there were milkmen. Why, my grandmother used to get soda delivered
to her house by the "soda pop man" at her rowhouse in East Baltimore.
Or maybe the audience member was talking about the combined
block-walking skills of a letter carrier and Kevin Costner. The
world may never know. It is at times of confusion like this one
that we must ask ourselves, Young Joey: "What would Tiny Tim do
in Toronto?"
JM
--
807
Spehro Pefhany
> I'm very surprised they haven't removed gender from the job description
> -- I thought that had been done long ago for public agency positions.
They probably have. This stuff was made up by some geek at the mailing
house to make dropping a sack of stuff off at their loading dock sound
better.
John Emery
haye...@yahoo.com wrote on 1/22/02 9:42 AM:
> On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 01:10:15 GMT, dado...@earthlink.net (R H Draney) wrote:
>
>
>> Now they're called "letter carriers", which suggests first that they
>> won't deliver parcels, second that they're some sort of Vanna
>> White-wannabe, and third that they might infect you with a disease...
>> ...in light of the last few months, maybe that last one's not so far
>> out after all...we might see a new euphemism to take its place in the
>> near future....r
>
> My first cousin three times removed was described as a "letter carrier" in the
> 1871 census of Bristol, England, so they've been described as that for a long
> time.
>
> Who's Vanna White, and was he/she around in 1871?
>
A seller of vowels. She's ageless.
Richard Fontana
>>
>>In short, WITDWTT?
>
>What does "WITDWTT" stand for?
Geez, Joey, this is where your youthfulness is a liability! If you were a
bit more matoor you'd know that WITDWTT stands for "What -- is -- the deal
-- with -- that -- thing?"! Your generation lacks a sense of humor (= BrE
'humour'). You're like the Baby Boomers all over again! Far out man!
> Anyways, here's my opinion: I think "postman"
>and "mailman" are two completely different things. One time I was watching
>some talk show (I think Jerry Springer). The topic was "My Momma's A Ho".
>Anyways, one of the audience members told her that she was a nasty-ass ho
>because she's "been around the block more times than the mailman and the
>postman combined". So, there ya go! See, you CAN learn something from Jerry
>Springer! Have a nice day, peeps.
Thanks for that data point, Young Joey!
Joe Fineman
> Postie, Postie do your duty.
> Take this to my *blue-eyed cutie.
While in Scotland, I received an anonymous note inscribed
Postie, postie, dinna falter:
This may lead me to the altar.
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: Beside myself is too close for comfort. :||
Leah
Fontana, I see your e-mail address has changed!! You're not at NYU
anymore?! You never DID tell us what job you have at NYU if you
weren't a professor!! Are you a janitor or something? ;) And WHY do
you always write the British version of a word in parentheses??! Do
you really think the Brits don't know that humor=humour??! Or do you
do it just b/c you think it makes you look smart? ;)
Richard Fontana
>rfon...@wesleyan.edu (Richard Fontana) wrote in message news:<slrna4rmla....@localhost.localdomain>...
>> On 22 Jan 2002 18:23:37 GMT DE781 wrote:
>> >>
>> >>In short, WITDWTT?
>> >
>> >What does "WITDWTT" stand for?
>>
>> Geez, Joey, this is where your youthfulness is a liability! If you were a
>> bit more matoor you'd know that WITDWTT stands for "What -- is -- the deal
>> -- with -- that -- thing?"! Your generation lacks a sense of humor (= BrE
>> 'humour'). You're like the Baby Boomers all over again! Far out man!
>Fontana, I see your e-mail address has changed!! You're not at NYU
>anymore?!
I think I still have access to the buildings.
> You never DID tell us what job you have at NYU if you
>weren't a professor!! Are you a janitor or something? ;)
What's a job? I get a dime every time Minneapolis Ray Wise says
"Martin Gardner". Soon I'll be able to afford that copy of _Chandler's
Daughter_.
> And WHY do
>you always write the British version of a word in parentheses??! Do
>you really think the Brits don't know that humor=humour??! Or do you
>do it just b/c you think it makes you look smart? ;)
Far out, man!
>> Thanks for that data point, Young Joey!
Yeah, what he said! And Youthful Leah too!
Harvey V
Fontana) wrote:
-snip-
> What's a job? I get a dime every time Minneapolis Ray Wise says
> "Martin Gardner". Soon I'll be able to afford that copy of
> _Chandler's Daughter_.
Chandler has a daughter? Does Monica know? (I really *must* watch
more television...)
--
Cheers,
Harvey
Joe Manfre
> On 22 Jan 2002 18:13:17 -0800 Leah wrote:
>>Fontana, I see your e-mail address has changed!! You're not at NYU
>>anymore?!
>
> I think I still have access to the buildings.
I think the men's room down in the basement level of the student
center is a good place to use if you are in the neighborhood and
in need of such a facility. (A little further east, I'd recommend
the Barnes & Noble at Astor Place.) The student center is the
only NYU building I've ever been in other than that girls' dorm
I blundered into by mistake that one time when I was looking for
something else. However, I think I would still be allowed into
all the NYU buildings because I'm so cute. But then I was once
barred from entering the library at Columbia, even though I was
wearing a nice sportcoat; I think maybe they got me mixed up with
Don Saklad. I probably fit in more with that NYU downtown
sensibility anyway, because I've got "Rear Window" on DVD and I
like the accent on that nurse in that movie. What's that actress's
name again?
JM
--
807
Richard Fontana
Thelma Ritter.
But you know, even though that was supposed to take place in Green-wich
Village, the set was modelled on an apartment building complex in Jackson
Heights, Queens.
Say, when Jimmy Stewart looked out the rear window, did he look out on an
"alley"?
Joe Manfre
Eh? The story I heard was that it was based on an actual block of
buildings in the Village and that the address of said block was
disguised somewhat in the movie. The same story is told on this page:
http://us.imdb.com/Trivia?0047396
...which also contains the interesting (made-up?) word "diegetic".
I don't know that I would use the word "complex" there, because in
this context "complex" suggests to me a bunch of buildings owned
by the same company and usually developed by the same developer,
with a more or less uniform appearance; the buildings in the
movie all looked quite different from each other, which would
suggest to me that they were separately owned buildings.
>
> Say, when Jimmy Stewart looked out the rear window, did he look out on an
> "alley"?
Well, the part in the foreground, where the irritating woman sat
on her lawn chair and then went over to harrass Raymond Burr about
how deep he was digging in his flower bed, was more of a courtyard than
an alley. It wasn't designed for vehicles to drive through, for one
thing; it is more of a location of stasis than of passage from point to
point. But the little passage through which one could gain access to
the street was more alleylike because of the ratio of its length to
its width. I can see calling that "the alley back to the courtyard".
Yes, I like this idea that an alley has to be narrow and that it
has to be designed with movement in mind rather than stasis. Yes
yes yes. Also, I just like the word "stasis". Stasis stasis stasis.
Sit, sis! Roll over! Good girl!
There is a residential neighborhood in D.C. right near where I live
that has back alleys that are paved with concrete and are parallel
to the actual streets, bisecting the square (okay, rectangular)
blocks. In addition to the narrowness and the concrete paving,
another thing distinguishing these alleys from the actual streets
is the fact that the entrances to the alleys are of the depression-
in-the-sidewalk variety commonly seen at the entrances to driveways.
JM
--
807
Richard Fontana
>Richard Fontana (rfon...@wesleyan.edu) wrote:
>> On 23 Jan 2002 12:18:24 GMT Joe Manfre wrote:
>>>I probably fit in more with that NYU downtown sensibility anyway,
>>>because I've got "Rear Window" on DVD and I like the accent on that
>>>nurse in that movie. What's that actress's name again?
>>
>> Thelma Ritter.
>>
>> But you know, even though that was supposed to take place in Green-wich
>> Village, the set was modelled on an apartment building complex in Jackson
>> Heights, Queens.
>
>Eh? The story I heard was that it was based on an actual block of
>buildings in the Village and that the address of said block was
>disguised somewhat in the movie. The same story is told on this page:
> http://us.imdb.com/Trivia?0047396
Hmm. I might be misremembering. One web page claims that _Rear Window_
was *filmed* in Jackson Heights:
"Hitch groupies" give two thumbs up for "Rear Window" filmed at
The Belvedere, one of Jackson Heights landmark garden apartments,
There's some sort of Jackson Heights connection, anyways. Also, in _The
Wrong Man_, which I mentioned recently, Henry Fonda's character was
supposed to have lived in Jackson Heights. My grandfather lived in
Astoria. (Actually both of my grandfathers did.)
>I don't know that I would use the word "complex" there, because in
>this context "complex" suggests to me a bunch of buildings owned
>by the same company and usually developed by the same developer,
>with a more or less uniform appearance; the buildings in the
>movie all looked quite different from each other, which would
>suggest to me that they were separately owned buildings.
I agree. "Complex" was the wrong word.
Tony Cooper
>
>
> Say, when Jimmy Stewart looked out the rear window, did he look out on an
> "alley"?
If I remember the movie correctly, he looked out over the
abutting backyards of two apartment buildings. I think they
were grassed areas.
--
Tony Cooper aka: tony_co...@yahoo.com
Provider of Jots and Tittles
Bob Stahl
> But you know, even though that was supposed to take place in
> Green-wich Village, the set was modelled on an apartment
> building complex in Jackson Heights, Queens.
> Say, when Jimmy Stewart looked out the rear window, did he
> look out on an "alley"?
It was a courtyard connected to the street by an alley.
They were courtyard, or garden apartments.
http://www.safa.fi/ark/ark4_97/hitchcoche1.html
http://www.filmsite.org/rear.html
I wonder whether the brand of Stewart's 35-mm camera in the
film -- Exacta -- might have been a pun on horse racing.
Hitchcock allegedly picked Burr for the villain because of
his resemblance to David O. Selznick, who was known to have
a gambling problem. I have an almost identical camera, sans
telephoto.
Did you know a thoroughbred stallion named Bates Motel has sired
Shower Scene, Last Shower, Instant Checkout, Blondeinamotel,
Adios Mother, Early Checkout, Norman's Mania, Perkin's Blade,
Sycho, Out By Noon and Suspenseiskillinme?
http://www.ntra.com/press/notebook/trcweek1203.html
---
Bob Stahl
Joe Manfre
>>and anyone old enough to be the mother of a person who could make
>>such an accusation must be old enough to remember the days when
>>there were milkmen.
>
> were like 30-40, and just had had kids when they were VERY YOUNG
> (12, 13, 14). I mean, it's common in hoes. So, it was like
> 16-20-year-old girls dissing their mommas.
Well, I guess it depends on what the legal age is for being a ho in
the state where they live, though. Would they go on TV facing their
accusers if they had engaged in hoeism otherwise? But then, I guess
it depends on the statute of limitations as well.
>>The world may never know. It is at times of confusion like this one
>>that we must ask ourselves, Young Joey: "What would Tiny Tim do in
>>Toronto?"
>
> Uhhhhh...I'll try to remember that one!
Let me know how it works out for you. It has certainly plucked me out
of plenty a pretty pickle when a tiptoe through the tulips went awry,
as we say. Word?
JM
--
807
Richard Fontana
>Richard Fontana wrote:
>>
>>
>> Say, when Jimmy Stewart looked out the rear window, did he look out on an
>> "alley"?
>
>If I remember the movie correctly, he looked out over the
>abutting backyards of two apartment buildings. I think they
>were grassed areas.
To my way of thinking, apartment buildings can't have backyards by
definition. Courtyards are possible.
Richard Fontana
>>> Who's Vanna White, and was he/she around in 1871?
>
>Monica Lewinsky"! I bet she WAS around in 1871. What ya think, boo?
Actually, Young Joey, it's a curious thing: It seems to me like what the
Europeans and others do with American game shows is import the *concept*
but not the show itself. And we've done the same thing (more
recently) with _Who Wants to be a Millionaire_ and _The Weakest Link_
(even importing the host along with the concept). But with other kinds of
shows, such as sitcoms, they import the show itself. In non-Anglophone
countries they dub in voices in the native language of the
country. The BrE don't do that though. You wouldn't realize how popular
_Friends_ is overseas! It's like Kojak used to be! (Remember Ko-- no, I
guess you wouldn't.)
Brian Wickham
Fontana) wrote:
snip
>
>Hmm. I might be misremembering. One web page claims that _Rear Window_
>was *filmed* in Jackson Heights:
>
> "Hitch groupies" give two thumbs up for "Rear Window" filmed at
> The Belvedere, one of Jackson Heights landmark garden apartments,
>
"Rear Window" was filmed entirely at Paramount on a set built with 32
apartments. I haven't been around the Belvedere's neighborhood in
years so I can't be sure, but I doubt it looks anything like the
backyards in "Rear Window". The Belvedere would be good sized
apartment buildings set in a continuous garden with no fences between.
In Manhattan all those old low rise (mostly 4 floors) buildings have a
garden in the rear which is usually available to the ground floor
tenant only. Many still have the pole for running wash lines from
upper windows. Originally those "gardens" were where the outhouses
were located and where the clinkers and ash from the burned coal were
stored until pickup.
>There's some sort of Jackson Heights connection, anyways. Also, in _The
>Wrong Man_, which I mentioned recently, Henry Fonda's character was
>supposed to have lived in Jackson Heights. My grandfather lived in
>Astoria. (Actually both of my grandfathers did.)
>
"The Wrong Man" was filmed in Jackson Heights and Corona, or at least
they did exterior shots there. The 110th Precinct House is
prominently featured in the movie. The person the film was based on
did live in Jackson Heights.
Re the discussion about whether the back of the buildings in "Rear
Window" was an alley: no. The "gardens" abut each other back to back
with just a fence in between. In larger tenements there is usually a
passageway, to the rear and it is much like a tunnel through the
building. This is for bringing out the trash and cinders. In some
neighborhoods the children called this the "cat alley" but AFAIK it
is a "service alley". Some buildings called it the "ice court" where
the iceman could deliver blocks through the dumbwaiter. The "alley"
in "Rear Window" which lets you see to the far street and sidewalk
would be quite rare anywhere in Manhattan, let alone Greenwich
Village.
Brian Wickham
NYC
Tony Cooper
>
> >If I remember the movie correctly, he looked out over the
> >abutting backyards of two apartment buildings. I think they
> >were grassed areas.
>
> To my way of thinking, apartment buildings can't have backyards by
> definition. Courtyards are possible.
Right. I forgot. If it's a yard, and it's in back, but if
it's in back of an apartment building it can't be backyard.
Because it's not in back. Or, maybe because it's not a
yard. Sure, Richard.
A courtyard, by the way, is an opening within the structure
of a building. It has to be at least partially enclosed by
the structure of the building.
Richard Fontana
>Richard Fontana wrote:
>>
>> >If I remember the movie correctly, he looked out over the
>> >abutting backyards of two apartment buildings. I think they
>> >were grassed areas.
>>
>> To my way of thinking, apartment buildings can't have backyards by
>> definition. Courtyards are possible.
>
>Right. I forgot. If it's a yard, and it's in back, but if
>it's in back of an apartment building it can't be backyard.
>Because it's not in back. Or, maybe because it's not a
>yard. Sure, Richard.
I've just never heard "backyard" used to describe the area in back of a
building, as opposed to a house. It doesn't sound right to me. Maybe
it's just not permissible in my idiolect!
>A courtyard, by the way, is an opening within the structure
>of a building. It has to be at least partially enclosed by
>the structure of the building.
I guess I'd agree with that, thinking of the courtyards I've known, but it
might depend on how you define "enclosed" or "structure of a
building". I think to say that a "courtyard" separates the backs of
two buildings implies that they form a common building complex.
Charles Riggs
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Richard Fontana wrote:
>>
>>
>> Say, when Jimmy Stewart looked out the rear window, did he look out on an
>> "alley"?
>
>If I remember the movie correctly, he looked out over the
>abutting backyards of two apartment buildings. I think they
>were grassed areas.
Wrong about the word "backyards" and quite possibly wrong about the
grass. I'm not too happy with "abutting" here, either. The "he looked
out over" was fine.
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
Fontana) wrote:
>Say, when Jimmy Stewart looked out the rear window, did he look out on an
>"alley"?
Most definitely not. Didn't he look out across a courtyard?
Charles Riggs
-RZ
"Richard Fontana" <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> wrote in message
news:slrna4ubtd....@localhost.localdomain...
I'm sure it's been asked before, but I don't see it in the FAQ: why are
there no frontyards or sideyards? Or perhaps it should be: why does the
word "backyard" exist, rather than "back yard"? I can't see it in print
without trying to rhyme it with "backward."
Joe Manfre
> In Manhattan all those old low rise (mostly 4 floors) buildings have a
> garden in the rear which is usually available to the ground floor
> tenant only. Many still have the pole for running wash lines from
> upper windows. Originally those "gardens" were where the outhouses
> were located and where the clinkers and ash from the burned coal were
> stored until pickup.
I think I like "garden" better than "backyard" for what's behind
an urban apartment building like the ones depicted in "Rear Window".
I tend to think of "backyard" as implying something behind a house
rather than behind a different sort of building. I can see maybe
"rear yard" or even "back yard" (2 words) for what's behind an
urban apartment building.
That said, Lisa (Grace Kelly's character) does refer to it as a
"backyard" in the movie, which I watched again last night. She calls
it that when she's looking at the slide from a couple of weeks earlier
that shows the yellow flowers a little taller.
I used the word "courtyard" for all those abutting gardens
behind the buildings in "Rear Window", although maybe it's
inappropriate considering that there are walls between the buildings'
gardens. (At one point you see Lisa and Stella climbing over one of
the walls as they head over to dig up Thorwald's flowerbed.)
> Re the discussion about whether the back of the buildings in "Rear
> Window" was an alley: no. The "gardens" abut each other back to back
> with just a fence in between. In larger tenements there is usually a
> passageway, to the rear and it is much like a tunnel through the
> building. This is for bringing out the trash and cinders. In some
> neighborhoods the children called this the "cat alley" but AFAIK it
> is a "service alley". Some buildings called it the "ice court" where
> the iceman could deliver blocks through the dumbwaiter. The "alley"
> in "Rear Window" which lets you see to the far street and sidewalk
> would be quite rare anywhere in Manhattan, let alone Greenwich
> Village.
I think that may be true. However, the alley to the street is called
an "alley" in the movie, by Jimmy Stewart's character, when Stella
runs around the block to see the name of the moving company that picks
up Thorwald's trunk.
Also, as I thought yesterday, there is a mistake in that Internet
Movie Database trivia entry that I pointed to yesterday -- the
address for Thorwald's building in the movie is on West 9th Street,
not West 7th Street, and it is 9th Street that runs into
Christopher Street. (There's no 7th Street anywhere west of
Third Avenue, according to the street map I consulted last night.)
The screenwriter for "Rear Window" grew up in Worcester, Mass.
JM
--
807
Richard Fontana
I've pointed out before that in my Native Dialect "side yard" definitely
doesn't exist and "front yard" at best barely exists (I can think of some
aesthetically non-pleasing house-front setups that I *might* use "front
yard" to describe, I guess). So I can't help you there. But I do have
some views on "backyard". This *is* a word in my ND and in fact it was
one of the earliest words I learned, I think. And it was conceptually one
word, three (or at least two-and-a-half) syllables: /,b&ki'Ard/ or
/,b&ki'jArd/ ("backeeARD"). So I think it should be written as a single
word.
Richard Fontana
>Also, as I thought yesterday, there is a mistake in that Internet
>Movie Database trivia entry that I pointed to yesterday -- the
>address for Thorwald's building in the movie is on West 9th Street,
>not West 7th Street, and it is 9th Street that runs into
>Christopher Street. (There's no 7th Street anywhere west of
>Third Avenue, according to the street map I consulted last night.)
MacDougal Alley and Washington Mews are two little streets that are about
where West 7th Street would be if the grid had had its way. BTW MacDougal
Alley isn't an alley.
Joe Manfre
Washington Mews is a cute li'l street, innit? Somebody told me that
those old stables are used for "NYU faculty housing" now, but I bet
that means something other than what some might expect. I mean,
ObAUE and all that.
> BTW MacDougal Alley isn't an alley.
>
Well, duh. Neither are Kirstie Alley or Ali MacGraw.
JM
--
807
-RZ
I'm not questioning whether the word exists. I was wondering why. The
two-word phrase still exists as well, and does not differ in meaning in
any way that I can tell. I frequently see references to the acronym
"NIMBY" (Not In My Back Yard), which could perhaps be respelled "NIMB,"
but I've never seen it that way.
Oh, and as a frequently unwilling mower of that rather large expanse of
grass between the front door and the street of the house I grew up in, I'd
be willing to testify to the existence of at least one front yard, and for
that matter, of a side yard. In our neighborhood, houses tended to be set
at least forty feet from the sidewalk that passed in front of the house.
I'd agree that the little patch of lawn between sidewalk and street could
barely be categorized as a "yard."
Tony Cooper
>
> "Rear Window" was filmed entirely at Paramount on a set built with 32
> apartments. I haven't been around the Belvedere's neighborhood in
> years so I can't be sure, but I doubt it looks anything like the
> backyards in "Rear Window". The Belvedere would be good sized
> apartment buildings set in a continuous garden with no fences between.
>
> In Manhattan all those old low rise (mostly 4 floors) buildings have a
> garden in the rear which is usually available to the ground floor
> tenant only. Many still have the pole for running wash lines from
> upper windows. Originally those "gardens" were where the outhouses
> were located and where the clinkers and ash from the burned coal were
> stored until pickup.
What means "gardens"? Europeans use the word "garden" to
mean what I would call a "lawn" or "yard". To me, a
"garden" is an area planted with vegetables or flowers.
Richard Fontana
I've suggested that in some dialects there may be a pronunciation
difference: "back yard" has two syllables but "backyard" has three.
I'll grant you that there's no immediately obvious difference in
meaning. "Back yard" might, to me, refer to a larger variety of things
than a "backyard" does.
>Oh, and as a frequently unwilling mower of that rather large expanse of
>grass between the front door and the street of the house I grew up in, I'd
>be willing to testify to the existence of at least one front yard, and for
>that matter, of a side yard. In our neighborhood, houses tended to be set
>at least forty feet from the sidewalk that passed in front of the house.
>I'd agree that the little patch of lawn between sidewalk and street could
>barely be categorized as a "yard."
I'm not sure anyone does. What you're calling the "front yard" is, in my
Native Dialect, called "the lawn". The normative front lawn doesn't
have, for me, sufficient yardness to be a yard. Backyards are yards,
however.
Tony Cooper
>
> >> To my way of thinking, apartment buildings can't have backyards by
> >> definition. Courtyards are possible.
> >
> >Right. I forgot. If it's a yard, and it's in back, but if
> >it's in back of an apartment building it can't be backyard.
> >Because it's not in back. Or, maybe because it's not a
> >yard. Sure, Richard.
>
> I've just never heard "backyard" used to describe the area in back of a
> building, as opposed to a house. It doesn't sound right to me. Maybe
> it's just not permissible in my idiolect!
Speaking of two different apartment buildings I lived in in
Chicago: One had a grassed area approximately 50' by 30'
behind the building. The parking spaces, and the alley, was
behind this area. In the summer, we'd set out lawn chairs
and a badminton net in the area. We had to call it
something, and called it the "back yard".
> >A courtyard, by the way, is an opening within the structure
> >of a building. It has to be at least partially enclosed by
> >the structure of the building.
>
> I guess I'd agree with that, thinking of the courtyards I've known, but it
> might depend on how you define "enclosed" or "structure of a
> building". I think to say that a "courtyard" separates the backs of
> two buildings implies that they form a common building complex.
The second apartment building was built in a "U" shape with
the entrances facing the inside of the "U". The middle area
was mostly concrete, but with planting beds and some
benches. We called that a "courtyard".
Tony Cooper
>
> >If I remember the movie correctly, he looked out over the
> >abutting backyards of two apartment buildings. I think they
> >were grassed areas.
>
> Wrong about the word "backyards" and quite possibly wrong about the
> grass. I'm not too happy with "abutting" here, either. The "he looked
> out over" was fine.
I'll take what I can get. In baseball, .333 is not that
bad.
dcw
-RZ <Dick....@lexisnexis.com> wrote:
>I'm not questioning whether the word exists. I was wondering why. The
>two-word phrase still exists as well, and does not differ in meaning in
>any way that I can tell. I frequently see references to the acronym
>"NIMBY" (Not In My Back Yard), which could perhaps be respelled "NIMB,"
>but I've never seen it that way.
We've imported "NIMBY", although we have gardens, not yards.
There are several such cases where AmE runs two words together for
reasons that are not clear over here -- "hometown" is another one.
David
Stephen Toogood
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> writes
>
>What means "gardens"? Europeans use the word "garden" to
>mean what I would call a "lawn" or "yard". To me, a
>"garden" is an area planted with vegetables or flowers.
Oh, I've come across your definition here, but not for years now. My
aunt, when I was playing with my cousins, used to warn us not to tread
on the 'garden', by which she meant her flower bed.
That would be considered old-fashioned today, and generally speaking
when you consider the part of your plot that has no building upon it, if
it's paved it's a yard and if it's not it's a garden. Fewer and fewer
houses have yards these days; you can't really relax in a yard.
--
Stephen Toogood
Steve Hayes
>in article 3c4d0dda...@news.saix.net, Steve Hayes at
>haye...@yahoo.com wrote on 1/22/02 9:42 AM:
>
>> On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 01:10:15 GMT, dado...@earthlink.net (R H Draney) wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Now they're called "letter carriers", which suggests first that they
>>> won't deliver parcels, second that they're some sort of Vanna
>>> White-wannabe, and third that they might infect you with a disease...
>>> ...in light of the last few months, maybe that last one's not so far
>>> out after all...we might see a new euphemism to take its place in the
>>> near future....r
>>
>> My first cousin three times removed was described as a "letter carrier" in the
>> 1871 census of Bristol, England, so they've been described as that for a long
>> time.
>>
>> Who's Vanna White, and was he/she around in 1871?
>>
>A seller of vowels. She's ageless.
She should do well in the former Yugoslavia, then. There's a shortage of
vowels there.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Richard Fontana
>
>There are several such cases where AmE runs two words together for
>reasons that are not clear over here -- "hometown" is another one.
That's one that makes no sense to me either. It's said as two words,
"home town", stress on "town" usually, and I think it should be so
spelled.
Skitt
I have never heard the "town" part stressed. Why would it be? To
differentiate it from a home city (if there were such an expression)?
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel of "Fawlty Towers" (he's from Barcelona).
Brian Wickham
I sometimes call them backyards, it depends on the condition. The
brownstones and small apartment buildings have a captive yard in the
back which many owners have turned into a garden area with plantings,
and more often, a seating and outdoor eating area. So if you lived
upstairs in the back of a brownstone you could look out and see a line
of private gardens, or patios, or combination of the two, that had
been developed in the spaces that were the preexisting yards. Of
course, some would not be developed and would be just dirt yards.
I think that "Rear Window" caught the spirit of the NYC backyard but
not the full reality. The general atmosphere back there is usually
more confining than the film showed.
BTW, just about any NYC restaurant that features outdoor dining in the
rear is using the space that once was the building's backyard.
Brian Wickham
Richard Fontana
>
>"Richard Fontana" <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> wrote in message
>news:slrna50m2k....@localhost.localdomain...
>> On Thu, 24 Jan 02 15:01:30 GMT dcw wrote:
>> >
>> >There are several such cases where AmE runs two words together for
>> >reasons that are not clear over here -- "hometown" is another one.
>>
>> That's one that makes no sense to me either. It's said as two words,
>> "home town", stress on "town" usually, and I think it should be so
>> spelled.
>
>I have never heard the "town" part stressed. Why would it be? To
>differentiate it from a home city (if there were such an expression)?
M-W indicates that "town" gets the stress:
Main Entry: home·town
Pronunciation: -'taun
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Date: 1912
: the city or town where one was born or grew up; also
: the place of one's
principal residence
Skitt
I see. Interestingly, they do it both ways for "downtown":
Main Entry: down·town
Pronunciation: "daun-'taun, 'daun-"
Evenly for "uptown" and "crosstown":
Main Entry: up·town
Pronunciation: '&p-'taun
Main Entry: cross·town
Pronunciation: 'kros-'taun
Up front for "boomtown":
Main Entry: boom·town
Pronunciation: 'büm-"taun
Different choices yet for "midtown":
Main Entry: mid·town
Pronunciation: 'mid-"taun, -'taun
Fascinating.
Ben Zimmer
Stress for these words depends in part on whether they're used
attributively or not. So I'd stress the first syllable in "Downtown
Chicago", "Uptown Girl", "Crosstown Traffic", and "Midtown Tunnel", but
the final syllable in "How do I get down/up/cross-town?"
--Ben
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>Fascinating.
Interesting, perhaps, fascinating not. "Fascinating" should be
reserved for only the most mind-involving and intriguing of
situations. All Star Trek fans, i.e, all red-blooded American males
among others, know this.
Charles Riggs
Skitt
"Charles Riggs" <chr...@gofree.indigo.ie> wrote in message
news:4q025u0dscs04nkq6...@4ax.com...
I see. I've never been a Star Trek fan, so ...
Blue-blooded? Naah.
John Estill
wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:00:16 -0800, John Emery <jfe...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>>in article 3c4d0dda...@news.saix.net, Steve Hayes at
>>haye...@yahoo.com wrote on 1/22/02 9:42 AM:
>>
>>> On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 01:10:15 GMT, dado...@earthlink.net (R H Draney) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Now they're called "letter carriers", which suggests first that they
>>>> won't deliver parcels, second that they're some sort of Vanna
>>>> White-wannabe, and third that they might infect you with a disease...
>>>> ...in light of the last few months, maybe that last one's not so far
>>>> out after all...we might see a new euphemism to take its place in the
>>>> near future....r
>>>
>>> My first cousin three times removed was described as a "letter carrier" in the
>>> 1871 census of Bristol, England, so they've been described as that for a long
>>> time.
>>>
>>> Who's Vanna White, and was he/she around in 1871?
>>>
>>A seller of vowels. She's ageless.
>
>She should do well in the former Yugoslavia, then. There's a shortage of
>vowels there.
Even after the airlift?
Regards,
John
--
John Estill
Native English speaker (midwestern variety), español al estilo mexicano
Millersburg, Ohio, U.S.A.
Steve Hayes
>>> Who's Vanna White, and was he/she around in 1871?
>
>LOLOLOLOLOL! How do you NOT know who Vanna White is? It's like axin' "Who's
>Monica Lewinsky"! I bet she WAS around in 1871. What ya think, boo?
Harry Viljoen will be asking you for a job soon.
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>
>"Charles Riggs" <chr...@gofree.indigo.ie> wrote in message
>news:4q025u0dscs04nkq6...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:52:04 -0800, "Skitt" <sk...@earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Fascinating.
>>
>> Interesting, perhaps, fascinating not. "Fascinating" should be
>> reserved for only the most mind-involving and intriguing of
>> situations. All Star Trek fans, i.e, all red-blooded American males
>> among others, know this.
>
>I see. I've never been a Star Trek fan, so ...
When I say a Star Trek fan, I mean a fan of the original series with,
perhaps, a slight appreciation for STNG. After those, all the
follow-ons degenerated into soap operas in Space. The characters went
to pot too: the ones on Voyager aren't even *likeable*. That Seven of
Nine has a nice body, is its only saving grace.
>Blue-blooded? Naah.
We'll have to ask Prince Charles what he watches.
Charles Riggs
Skitt
I must admit that I did watch many of the original show's episodes. I was
young then. I have lost all interest in science fiction since then. The
situations and people encountered in real life are far more interesting.
Simon R. Hughes
> That Seven of
> Nine has a nice body, is its only saving grace.
I'm going to report you to the Society Against the Abuse of Sub-
Clausal Punctuation for that one.
--
Simon R. Hughes -- http://www.geocities.com/a57998/subconscious/
<!--So much to do, so little time; so much time, so little done.-->
Charles Riggs
<shu...@tromso.online.no> wrote:
>Thus Spake Charles Riggs:
>> That Seven of
>> Nine has a nice body, is its only saving grace.
>
>I'm going to report you to the Society Against the Abuse of Sub-
>Clausal Punctuation for that one.
Will they take away all my commas? Help, Bob. I'm damned if I do and
damned if I don't. I'll never get this English language stuff right.
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>
>"Charles Riggs" <chr...@gofree.indigo.ie> wrote in message
>news:lgm45u83p1orr67j2...@4ax.com...
>> When I say a Star Trek fan, I mean a fan of the original series with,
>> perhaps, a slight appreciation for STNG. After those, all the
>> follow-ons degenerated into soap operas in Space. The characters went
>> to pot too: the ones on Voyager aren't even *likeable*. That Seven of
>> Nine has a nice body, is its only saving grace.
>
>I must admit that I did watch many of the original show's episodes. I was
>young then. I have lost all interest in science fiction since then. The
>situations and people encountered in real life are far more interesting.
Then your real life is more interesting than my real life. Give me
fantasy, any day, when I want "interesting".
Old Chinese curse: May you have an interesting life. (This is not
directed at you, of course. One has to be so careful of every word.)
Charles Riggs
Robert Lieblich
Sorry, Charles, it doesn't work without the comma, and it doesn't
work with it. You need a rewrite: "Seven of Nine's nice body is its
only saving grace.
I haven't seen the show enough to know whether it has any other
saving graces, but you're right about that nice body. Now if only
they'd found an outfit that would show it off ...
--
Bob Lieblich
Imfer the smiley
Skitt
> On Sat, 26 Jan 2002 11:58:20 -0800, "Skitt" <sk...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Charles Riggs" <chr...@gofree.indigo.ie> wrote in message
> >news:lgm45u83p1orr67j2...@4ax.com...
>
> >> When I say a Star Trek fan, I mean a fan of the original series with,
> >> perhaps, a slight appreciation for STNG. After those, all the
> >> follow-ons degenerated into soap operas in Space. The characters went
> >> to pot too: the ones on Voyager aren't even *likeable*. That Seven of
> >> Nine has a nice body, is its only saving grace.
> >
> >I must admit that I did watch many of the original show's episodes. I
was
> >young then. I have lost all interest in science fiction since then. The
> >situations and people encountered in real life are far more interesting.
>
> Then your real life is more interesting than my real life. Give me
> fantasy, any day, when I want "interesting".
Well, yeah, as I gather, you are in a fairly quiet neck of the woods. Not
so I, but I must confess that, after retiring, I don't have any more contact
with the people who filled my life with wonderment about their actions and
experiences and, incredibly, survival.
Now this forum supplies some of that.
> Old Chinese curse: May you have an interesting life. (This is not
> directed at you, of course. One has to be so careful of every word.)
You had me worried there for a sec.
Spooky Guy Next Door
(Dick....@lexisnexis.com) wrote:
> "Richard Fontana" <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> wrote in message
> news:slrna4ubtd....@localhost.localdomain...
> > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:32:58 -0500 Tony Cooper wrote:
> > >Richard Fontana wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Say, when Jimmy Stewart looked out the rear window, did he look out
> on an
> > >> "alley"?
> > >
> > >If I remember the movie correctly, he looked out over the
> > >abutting backyards of two apartment buildings. I think they
> > >were grassed areas.
> >
> > To my way of thinking, apartment buildings can't have backyards by
> > definition. Courtyards are possible.
>
> I'm sure it's been asked before, but I don't see it in the FAQ: why are
> there no frontyards or sideyards? Or perhaps it should be: why does the
> word "backyard" exist, rather than "back yard"? I can't see it in print
> without trying to rhyme it with "backward."
I say "back yard" and "front yard". I once lived in a house that had a
"side yard", but we called it a part of the "back yard" that just happened
to be intruded upon by the house.
I'd never (knowingly) speak of "backyard"s.
--
The ideas expressed in the above post are my own, with the possible
exception of the one involving a scarecrow and a stick of butter.
blog - http://www.cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/
cyberfuddle - http://www.cyberfuddle.com/
learn HTML - http://smiley.vh.mewl.net/markhtml/
-RZ
"Spooky Guy Next Door" <mgall...@cyberfuddle.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.16c40ba74...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary, -RZ
>
> "side yard", but we called it a part of the "back yard" that just
happened
> to be intruded upon by the house.
>
> I'd never (knowingly) speak of "backyard"s.
>
And I likewise. I've seen "backyard" often enough to accept its existence,
but I often wonder if it came out of an urban environment, one where back
yards were of necessity compressed into backyards.
My parents had a huge back yard, but later sold off half. The people who
bought the lot built a house set into the earth, with a sod roof. I
suppose that would be the "top yard."
John Holmes
"Spooky Guy Next Door" <mgall...@cyberfuddle.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.16c40ba74...@news.cis.dfn.de...
a
> "side yard", but we called it a part of the "back yard" that just
happened
> to be intruded upon by the house.
>
> I'd never (knowingly) speak of "backyard"s.
I think it works as an adjective (a backyard barbecue), but never as a
noun.
--
Regards
John