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Amount vs Number
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Charles Leviton
Jul 29, 2021, 11:52:20 AM7/29/21
to
Like the "lie vs lay" debate, is "Amount vs Number" a lost cause?
Snidely
Jul 29, 2021, 12:50:10 PM7/29/21
to
On Thursday or thereabouts, Stefan Ram declared ...
> count nouns ("a huge amount of children on the playground"),
> and repeated exposures to that usage often blur the Standard
> models for us. There are also instances where plural count
> nouns are treated as representing those items in mass and
> hence usable with amount. (quoted from a source published
> in 1993)
>
> "Amount" is now fast breaking into the territory of "number",
> sometimes, but by no means always, when the following plural
> noun is viewed as an aggregate or collection. (quoted from a
> source published in 2000)
Which sources? Why should we believe them?
/dps
--
"Inviting people to laugh with you while you are laughing at yourself
is a good thing to do, You may be a fool but you're the fool in
charge." -- Carl Reiner
> Charles Leviton <charles...@gmail.com> writes:
>> Like the "lie vs lay" debate, is "Amount vs Number" a lost cause?
>
> Common and Vulgar English frequently use "amount" with plural
>> Like the "lie vs lay" debate, is "Amount vs Number" a lost cause?
>
> count nouns ("a huge amount of children on the playground"),
> and repeated exposures to that usage often blur the Standard
> models for us. There are also instances where plural count
> nouns are treated as representing those items in mass and
> hence usable with amount. (quoted from a source published
> in 1993)
>
> "Amount" is now fast breaking into the territory of "number",
> sometimes, but by no means always, when the following plural
> noun is viewed as an aggregate or collection. (quoted from a
> source published in 2000)
Which sources? Why should we believe them?
/dps
--
"Inviting people to laugh with you while you are laughing at yourself
is a good thing to do, You may be a fool but you're the fool in
charge." -- Carl Reiner
Ken Blake
Jul 29, 2021, 1:02:53 PM7/29/21
to
On 7/29/2021 8:52 AM, Charles Leviton wrote:
> Like the "lie vs lay" debate, is "Amount vs Number" a lost cause?
and also less vs fewer
> Like the "lie vs lay" debate, is "Amount vs Number" a lost cause?
--
Ken
Snidely
Jul 29, 2021, 1:06:55 PM7/29/21
to
Just this Thursday, Stefan Ram puzzled about:
> r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
> arteficial from the start and never reflected common usage.
> For example,
>
>> ... we could absorb a vast amount of South American products -
> Thurman W. Arnold, The Bottlenecks of Business, 1940
>
>> ... who wrote the U.N. that he'd be glad to furnish any
>> amount of black pebbles
> New Yorker, 20 Sept. 1952
>
> . These voices say that "amount" is (correctly) used for
> plural count nouns when they are thought of as an aggregate.
Yay! Sources cited!
/dps
--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013
> r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>> Charles Leviton <charles...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> Like the "lie vs lay" debate, is "Amount vs Number" a lost cause?
>>> Like the "lie vs lay" debate, is "Amount vs Number" a lost cause?
>> Common and Vulgar English frequently use "amount" with plural
>> count nouns
>
> But other sources opine that the simplified distinction was
>> count nouns
>
> arteficial from the start and never reflected common usage.
> For example,
>
>> ... we could absorb a vast amount of South American products -
> Thurman W. Arnold, The Bottlenecks of Business, 1940
>
>> ... who wrote the U.N. that he'd be glad to furnish any
>> amount of black pebbles
> New Yorker, 20 Sept. 1952
>
> . These voices say that "amount" is (correctly) used for
> plural count nouns when they are thought of as an aggregate.
Yay! Sources cited!
/dps
--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013
Charles Leviton
Jul 29, 2021, 2:53:37 PM7/29/21
to
On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 12:50:10 PM UTC-4, Snidely wrote:
> On Thursday or thereabouts, Stefan Ram declared ...
> On Thursday or thereabouts, Stefan Ram declared ...
Ken Blake
Jul 29, 2021, 3:12:13 PM7/29/21
to
On 7/29/2021 10:28 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Webster's Usage observed in 1989 that the usual rule is
> simplified and that in actual usage of the past thousand
> years "less" also is used for counted things.
Yes, used by many people, but not by me.
--
Ken
> Webster's Usage observed in 1989 that the usual rule is
> simplified and that in actual usage of the past thousand
> years "less" also is used for counted things.
Yes, used by many people, but not by me.
--
Ken
Peter Moylan
Jul 29, 2021, 7:59:47 PM7/29/21
to
On 30/07/21 02:52, Charles Leviton wrote:
> Like the "lie vs lay" debate, is "Amount vs Number" a lost cause?
It's certainly teetering on the edge.
> Like the "lie vs lay" debate, is "Amount vs Number" a lost cause?
The loss of this distinction could be one more step towards the loss of
the distinction in English between mass and count nouns. Probably not in
my lifetime, though, nor even that of my children.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Dingbat
Jul 30, 2021, 4:19:29 AM7/30/21
to
On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 10:20:10 PM UTC+5:30, Snidely wrote:
> On Thursday or thereabouts, Stefan Ram declared ...
> > Charles Leviton <charles...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> Like the "lie vs lay" debate, is "Amount vs Number" a lost cause?
> >
> > Common and Vulgar English frequently use "amount" with plural
> > count nouns ("a huge amount of children on the playground"),
> > and repeated exposures to that usage often blur the Standard
> > models for us. There are also instances where plural count
> > nouns are treated as representing those items in mass and
> > hence usable with amount. (quoted from a source published
> > in 1993)
> >
> > "Amount" is now fast breaking into the territory of "number",
> > sometimes, but by no means always, when the following plural
> > noun is viewed as an aggregate or collection. (quoted from a
> > source published in 2000)
>
> Which sources? Why should we believe them?
>
> /dps
>
In Indian English: so much of money
> On Thursday or thereabouts, Stefan Ram declared ...
> > Charles Leviton <charles...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> Like the "lie vs lay" debate, is "Amount vs Number" a lost cause?
> >
> > Common and Vulgar English frequently use "amount" with plural
> > count nouns ("a huge amount of children on the playground"),
> > and repeated exposures to that usage often blur the Standard
> > models for us. There are also instances where plural count
> > nouns are treated as representing those items in mass and
> > hence usable with amount. (quoted from a source published
> > in 1993)
> >
> > "Amount" is now fast breaking into the territory of "number",
> > sometimes, but by no means always, when the following plural
> > noun is viewed as an aggregate or collection. (quoted from a
> > source published in 2000)
>
> Which sources? Why should we believe them?
>
> /dps
>
CDB
Jul 30, 2021, 7:58:03 AM7/30/21
to
On 7/29/2021 2:53 PM, Charles Leviton wrote:
It may be that the best you can do is preserve the proper use in your
own English.
--
Be just and fear not.
own English.
--
Be just and fear not.
Charles Leviton
Jul 30, 2021, 9:59:27 AM7/30/21
to
CDB
Jul 30, 2021, 10:22:40 AM7/30/21
to
On 7/30/2021 9:59 AM, Charles Leviton wrote:
Had to look that up (not a Disney fan).
I thought of my quotation in terms of _Rocky Horror Picture Show_ (it's
the text posted at the church where Betty Monroe becomes Mrs Ralph
Hapschatt), but it's a poem too, by Henry Alford -- who does go on a bit:
https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/be-just-and-fear-not/
I thought of my quotation in terms of _Rocky Horror Picture Show_ (it's
the text posted at the church where Betty Monroe becomes Mrs Ralph
Hapschatt), but it's a poem too, by Henry Alford -- who does go on a bit:
https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/be-just-and-fear-not/
Mack A. Damia
Jul 30, 2021, 11:43:36 AM7/30/21
to
"If I lose the election, there MUST have been cheating."
Embraced by millions of Americans, it is remains a hot-button issue.
Much of American culture has generally adopted this rationalization -
"if our side loses, there must have been cheating."
I see it in the Olympics. I don't know the full story, but Russia was
banned because of drug use, so the athletes who trained hard and
tested drug-free have been competing under the banner of the "ROC".
The ROC won a Gold medal, beating the U.S. America's response" "They
cheated".
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 30, 2021, 3:31:00 PM7/30/21
to
Tony Cooper
Jul 30, 2021, 5:12:46 PM7/30/21
to
Russian in the 200-meter backstroke. He didn't say "They cheated",
but did say "I’ve got about 15 thoughts. Thirteen of them would get me
into a lot of trouble. It is a huge mental drain on me to go
throughout the year that I’m swimming in a race that’s probably not
clean.”
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Mack A. Damia
Jul 30, 2021, 5:15:15 PM7/30/21
to
I think the term used to describe the issue was "not clean".
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/ryan-murphy-swimmer-doping-russia-rylov-b1893500.html
Snidely
Jul 30, 2021, 7:04:30 PM7/30/21
to
Charles Leviton noted that:
I'm not sure how your reply relates to my post.
/dps
--
You could try being nicer and politer
> instead, and see how that works out.
-- Katy Jennison
/dps
--
You could try being nicer and politer
> instead, and see how that works out.
-- Katy Jennison
Snidely
Jul 30, 2021, 7:40:51 PM7/30/21
to
CDB blurted out:
Damn, every time I thought I had shut off the player and gone back to
the tab I was trying to foreground, it would start up again. And
seemed to go on to other poems without have the auto-next button
checked.
/dps
--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in
2015.
the tab I was trying to foreground, it would start up again. And
seemed to go on to other poems without have the auto-next button
checked.
/dps
--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in
2015.
Peter Moylan
Jul 30, 2021, 10:13:30 PM7/30/21
to
automatically brought up a mental picture of the Muppets singing "Letter
B, letter B, ..."
Horace LaBadie
Jul 30, 2021, 11:36:24 PM7/30/21
to
In article <fiq8gg9mbdkcc5i6n...@4ax.com>,
And, of course, the Russian national team had been disqualified because
of doping in past Olympics. It's not as though that was in any doubt
about that. Some individual Russian athletes were permitted to compete,
just not as a team representing Russia.
of doping in past Olympics. It's not as though that was in any doubt
about that. Some individual Russian athletes were permitted to compete,
just not as a team representing Russia.
bil...@shaw.ca
Jul 31, 2021, 2:29:21 AM7/31/21
to
On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 4:59:47 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 30/07/21 02:52, Charles Leviton wrote:
>
> > Like the "lie vs lay" debate, is "Amount vs Number" a lost cause?
> It's certainly teetering on the edge.
>
> The loss of this distinction could be one more step towards the loss of
> the distinction in English between mass and count nouns. Probably not in
> my lifetime, though, nor even that of my children.
>
Perhaps, but for the time being, I'm continuing to see the use of "less" where
> On 30/07/21 02:52, Charles Leviton wrote:
>
> > Like the "lie vs lay" debate, is "Amount vs Number" a lost cause?
> It's certainly teetering on the edge.
>
> The loss of this distinction could be one more step towards the loss of
> the distinction in English between mass and count nouns. Probably not in
> my lifetime, though, nor even that of my children.
>
count nouns apply to be in error. It's not allowed by my personal style guide.
bill
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 31, 2021, 9:05:38 AM7/31/21
to
Ryan Murphy is no Katie Ledecky. But at least he knows how to
spell his name, unlike Floridian Caeleb Dressel.
Tony Cooper
Jul 31, 2021, 9:32:05 AM7/31/21
to
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 06:05:35 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
To add to your indignation, his sister's name is Sherridon Dressel.
She is also an ISL swimmer and an All-American in swimming at UofF.
She is also an ISL swimmer and an All-American in swimming at UofF.
Tony Cooper
Jul 31, 2021, 9:47:13 AM7/31/21
to
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 09:31:59 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Ryan Murphy is no Katie Ledecky. But at least he knows how to
>>spell his name, unlike Floridian Caeleb Dressel.
>
>
>To add to your indignation, his sister's name is Sherridon Dressel.
>
>She is also an ISL swimmer and an All-American in swimming at UofF.
>
For the benefit of Otherponders, an "All-American" is not a person who
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Ryan Murphy is no Katie Ledecky. But at least he knows how to
>>spell his name, unlike Floridian Caeleb Dressel.
>
>
>To add to your indignation, his sister's name is Sherridon Dressel.
>
>She is also an ISL swimmer and an All-American in swimming at UofF.
>
is ultra-patriotic, neccessarily a descendant of Americans, or even a
citizen of the United States.
It is a term used to mean a selection of high school or university
students who excel at something, and the selection includes students
of any high school or university in the United States.
It is usually a selection of high school or university students who
excel in a sport (as Sherridon Dressel has), but we also have Academic
All-Americans who excel both in sports and academics.
Mack A. Damia
Jul 31, 2021, 11:48:23 AM7/31/21
to
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 06:05:35 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
I vaguely caught the original story, so I wasn't certain what exactly
was said.
Is doping a form of cheating? Answer please.
Does Murphy represent "America"? Answer please.
The quote marks were there for emphasis not to indicate an exact
quote.
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 5:12:46 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:30:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 11:43:36 AM UTC-4, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>
>> >> "If I lose the election, there MUST have been cheating."
>> >> Embraced by millions of Americans, it is remains a hot-button issue.
>> >> Much of American culture has generally adopted this rationalization -
>> >> "if our side loses, there must have been cheating."
>> >> I see it in the Olympics. I don't know the full story, but Russia was
>> >> banned because of drug use, so the athletes who trained hard and
>> >> tested drug-free have been competing under the banner of the "ROC".
>> >> The ROC won a Gold medal, beating the U.S. America's response" "They
>> >> cheated".
>> >Where did you find that response?
>>
>> It wasn't "they". It was Ryan Murphy, who placed second behind the
>> Russian in the 200-meter backstroke. He didn't say "They cheated",
>> but did say "I’ve got about 15 thoughts. Thirteen of them would get me
>> into a lot of trouble. It is a huge mental drain on me to go
>> throughout the year that I’m swimming in a race that’s probably not
>> clean.”
>
>How does Damia get from that to "America's response"?
Explanation:
>On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 5:12:46 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:30:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 11:43:36 AM UTC-4, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>
>> >> "If I lose the election, there MUST have been cheating."
>> >> Embraced by millions of Americans, it is remains a hot-button issue.
>> >> Much of American culture has generally adopted this rationalization -
>> >> "if our side loses, there must have been cheating."
>> >> I see it in the Olympics. I don't know the full story, but Russia was
>> >> banned because of drug use, so the athletes who trained hard and
>> >> tested drug-free have been competing under the banner of the "ROC".
>> >> The ROC won a Gold medal, beating the U.S. America's response" "They
>> >> cheated".
>> >Where did you find that response?
>>
>> It wasn't "they". It was Ryan Murphy, who placed second behind the
>> Russian in the 200-meter backstroke. He didn't say "They cheated",
>> but did say "I’ve got about 15 thoughts. Thirteen of them would get me
>> into a lot of trouble. It is a huge mental drain on me to go
>> throughout the year that I’m swimming in a race that’s probably not
>> clean.”
>
>How does Damia get from that to "America's response"?
I vaguely caught the original story, so I wasn't certain what exactly
was said.
Is doping a form of cheating? Answer please.
Does Murphy represent "America"? Answer please.
The quote marks were there for emphasis not to indicate an exact
quote.
Mack A. Damia
Jul 31, 2021, 11:55:19 AM7/31/21
to
have to be penalized because of the actions of a few renegades? I
don't think so.
It is all about "sportsmanship", a dying feature of competition. That
goes for all sides.
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 31, 2021, 1:33:57 PM7/31/21
to
However, the Russians who are participating are the ones for whom
there is no evidence of doping.
> Does Murphy represent "America"? Answer please.
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 31, 2021, 1:36:13 PM7/31/21
to
that he thinks they are being penalized?
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 31, 2021, 1:36:54 PM7/31/21
to
Mack A. Damia
Jul 31, 2021, 1:46:02 PM7/31/21
to
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 10:36:10 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 11:55:19 AM UTC-4, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:36:17 -0400, Horace LaBadie
>> <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> >And, of course, the Russian national team had been disqualified because
>> >of doping in past Olympics. It's not as though that was in any doubt
>> >about that. Some individual Russian athletes were permitted to compete,
>> >just not as a team representing Russia.
>>
>> So the Russian athletes who trained very hard and did not use drugs
>> have to be penalized because of the actions of a few renegades? I
>> don't think so.
>>
>How are they being penalized? What in Horace's response suggests
>that he thinks they are being penalized?
Russia was disqualified from competing, genius. The few who did take
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 11:55:19 AM UTC-4, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:36:17 -0400, Horace LaBadie
>> <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> >And, of course, the Russian national team had been disqualified because
>> >of doping in past Olympics. It's not as though that was in any doubt
>> >about that. Some individual Russian athletes were permitted to compete,
>> >just not as a team representing Russia.
>>
>> So the Russian athletes who trained very hard and did not use drugs
>> have to be penalized because of the actions of a few renegades? I
>> don't think so.
>>
>How are they being penalized? What in Horace's response suggests
>that he thinks they are being penalized?
part in the games competed under the name of R.O.C.
Mack A. Damia
Jul 31, 2021, 1:49:41 PM7/31/21
to
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 10:33:55 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
You can bet that a very large number of Americans believe that "they
cheated", and you would win. They all represent America's take on the
issue.
cheated", and you would win. They all represent America's take on the
issue.
Tony Cooper
Jul 31, 2021, 2:05:11 PM7/31/21
to
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 10:36:10 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 11:55:19 AM UTC-4, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:36:17 -0400, Horace LaBadie
>> <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> >And, of course, the Russian national team had been disqualified because
>> >of doping in past Olympics. It's not as though that was in any doubt
>> >about that. Some individual Russian athletes were permitted to compete,
>> >just not as a team representing Russia.
>>
>> So the Russian athletes who trained very hard and did not use drugs
>> have to be penalized because of the actions of a few renegades? I
>> don't think so.
>>
>How are they being penalized? What in Horace's response suggests
>that he thinks they are being penalized?
>
Of course they're being penalized. They are not representiving their
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 11:55:19 AM UTC-4, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:36:17 -0400, Horace LaBadie
>> <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> >And, of course, the Russian national team had been disqualified because
>> >of doping in past Olympics. It's not as though that was in any doubt
>> >about that. Some individual Russian athletes were permitted to compete,
>> >just not as a team representing Russia.
>>
>> So the Russian athletes who trained very hard and did not use drugs
>> have to be penalized because of the actions of a few renegades? I
>> don't think so.
>>
>How are they being penalized? What in Horace's response suggests
>that he thinks they are being penalized?
>
country, their national anthem will not be played if they reach the
podium, their national flag will not be displayed, and their
achievements in the Olympics will not be entered as Russian
achievments along with the achievements of other Russians in other
Olympics.
Nationality is important to athletes. Many of the Olympic competitors
live and train in the US, but compete under their native nationality.
Flora Duffy lives and trains in Boulder, Colorado and in Stellenboch,
South Africa, but competed for Bermuda in the Woman's Triathlon.
>> It is all about "sportsmanship", a dying feature of competition. That
>> goes for all sides.
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 31, 2021, 3:29:34 PM7/31/21
to
They are competing.
Both the gymnastics teams took gold, first time in a lot of years.
At least one of the swimmers did (see Murphy, above).
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 31, 2021, 3:32:09 PM7/31/21
to
announcers, and they have suggested no such thing. I don't know
whether FoxNews has a sports division. Fox Sports worries about
other stuff.
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 31, 2021, 3:37:20 PM7/31/21
to
On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 2:05:11 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 10:36:10 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 11:55:19 AM UTC-4, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:36:17 -0400, Horace LaBadie
> >> <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >
> >> >And, of course, the Russian national team had been disqualified because
> >> >of doping in past Olympics. It's not as though that was in any doubt
> >> >about that. Some individual Russian athletes were permitted to compete,
> >> >just not as a team representing Russia.
> >>
> >> So the Russian athletes who trained very hard and did not use drugs
> >> have to be penalized because of the actions of a few renegades? I
> >> don't think so.
> >>
> >How are they being penalized? What in Horace's response suggests
> >that he thinks they are being penalized?
> >
> Of course they're being penalized. They are not representiving their
> country, their national anthem will not be played if they reach the
> podium, their national flag will not be displayed, and their
> achievements in the Olympics will not be entered as Russian
> achievments along with the achievements of other Russians in other
> Olympics.
Their label is "Russian Olympic Committee."
> On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 10:36:10 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 11:55:19 AM UTC-4, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:36:17 -0400, Horace LaBadie
> >> <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >
> >> >And, of course, the Russian national team had been disqualified because
> >> >of doping in past Olympics. It's not as though that was in any doubt
> >> >about that. Some individual Russian athletes were permitted to compete,
> >> >just not as a team representing Russia.
> >>
> >> So the Russian athletes who trained very hard and did not use drugs
> >> have to be penalized because of the actions of a few renegades? I
> >> don't think so.
> >>
> >How are they being penalized? What in Horace's response suggests
> >that he thinks they are being penalized?
> >
> Of course they're being penalized. They are not representiving their
> country, their national anthem will not be played if they reach the
> podium, their national flag will not be displayed, and their
> achievements in the Olympics will not be entered as Russian
> achievments along with the achievements of other Russians in other
> Olympics.
Were the athletes who competed in 1992 as representing "Commonwealth
of Independent States" being "penalized" because they weren't representing
"Russia"? or any of the Stans? or presumably the Baltics and Caucasus?
> Nationality is important to athletes. Many of the Olympic competitors
> live and train in the US, but compete under their native nationality.
> Flora Duffy lives and trains in Boulder, Colorado and in Stellenboch,
> South Africa, but competed for Bermuda in the Woman's Triathlon.
have dual citizenship. One of the San Marino guys represents that
country because his (great?) grandfather emigrated from there to
the US a century ago,
The Russians don't train in some other country.
Mack A. Damia
Jul 31, 2021, 3:57:23 PM7/31/21
to
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 14:05:05 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 10:36:10 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
><gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 11:55:19 AM UTC-4, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:36:17 -0400, Horace LaBadie
>>> <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> >And, of course, the Russian national team had been disqualified because
>>> >of doping in past Olympics. It's not as though that was in any doubt
>>> >about that. Some individual Russian athletes were permitted to compete,
>>> >just not as a team representing Russia.
>>>
>>> So the Russian athletes who trained very hard and did not use drugs
>>> have to be penalized because of the actions of a few renegades? I
>>> don't think so.
>>>
>>How are they being penalized? What in Horace's response suggests
>>that he thinks they are being penalized?
>>
>Of course they're being penalized. They are not representiving their
>country, their national anthem will not be played if they reach the
>podium, their national flag will not be displayed, and their
>achievements in the Olympics will not be entered as Russian
>achievments along with the achievements of other Russians in other
>Olympics.
Daniels needs to find something he can argue about. I told you that
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 10:36:10 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
><gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 11:55:19 AM UTC-4, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:36:17 -0400, Horace LaBadie
>>> <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> >And, of course, the Russian national team had been disqualified because
>>> >of doping in past Olympics. It's not as though that was in any doubt
>>> >about that. Some individual Russian athletes were permitted to compete,
>>> >just not as a team representing Russia.
>>>
>>> So the Russian athletes who trained very hard and did not use drugs
>>> have to be penalized because of the actions of a few renegades? I
>>> don't think so.
>>>
>>How are they being penalized? What in Horace's response suggests
>>that he thinks they are being penalized?
>>
>Of course they're being penalized. They are not representiving their
>country, their national anthem will not be played if they reach the
>podium, their national flag will not be displayed, and their
>achievements in the Olympics will not be entered as Russian
>achievments along with the achievements of other Russians in other
>Olympics.
he is culturally ignorant and socially retarded. He doesn't even
bother looking up the definition of "penalty" before opening his yap.
Peter Moylan
Jul 31, 2021, 7:57:58 PM7/31/21
to
On 01/08/21 00:05, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Ryan Murphy is no Katie Ledecky. But at least he knows how to spell
> his name, unlike Floridian Caeleb Dressel.
Australian reporters all seem to pronounce Ledecky's name as Ledekky,
> Ryan Murphy is no Katie Ledecky. But at least he knows how to spell
> his name, unlike Floridian Caeleb Dressel.
despite having encountered any number of other Slavic name endings.
musika
Jul 31, 2021, 8:31:02 PM7/31/21
to
On 31/07/2021 23:57, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 01/08/21 00:05, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> Ryan Murphy is no Katie Ledecky. But at least he knows how to spell
>> his name, unlike Floridian Caeleb Dressel.
>
> Australian reporters all seem to pronounce Ledecky's name as Ledekky,
> despite having encountered any number of other Slavic name endings.
>
She's American and that's how her name is pronounced.
> On 01/08/21 00:05, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> Ryan Murphy is no Katie Ledecky. But at least he knows how to spell
>> his name, unlike Floridian Caeleb Dressel.
>
> Australian reporters all seem to pronounce Ledecky's name as Ledekky,
> despite having encountered any number of other Slavic name endings.
>
--
Ray
UK
Quinn C
Jul 31, 2021, 8:58:02 PM7/31/21
to
* Horace LaBadie:
If you count 328 of them as "some individual athletes". To me, the "ban"
feels mostly symbolic.
--
There is a whole cottage industry devoted to people who are
upset by the idea of others being outraged.
-- Washington Post 2019-09-18
feels mostly symbolic.
--
There is a whole cottage industry devoted to people who are
upset by the idea of others being outraged.
-- Washington Post 2019-09-18
Quinn C
Jul 31, 2021, 9:29:02 PM7/31/21
to
* Peter T. Daniels:
> Ryan Murphy is no Katie Ledecky. But at least he knows how to
> spell his name, unlike Floridian Caeleb Dressel.
You expect him to correct the spellings his parents chose?
--
...an explanatory principle - like "gravity" or "instinct" -
really explains nothing. It's a sort of conventional agreement
between scientists to stop trying to explain things at a
certain point. -- Gregory Bateson
> Ryan Murphy is no Katie Ledecky. But at least he knows how to
> spell his name, unlike Floridian Caeleb Dressel.
--
...an explanatory principle - like "gravity" or "instinct" -
really explains nothing. It's a sort of conventional agreement
between scientists to stop trying to explain things at a
certain point. -- Gregory Bateson
Tony Cooper
Jul 31, 2021, 11:46:48 PM7/31/21
to
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 21:28:53 -0400, Quinn C
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>* Peter T. Daniels:
>
>> Ryan Murphy is no Katie Ledecky. But at least he knows how to
>> spell his name, unlike Floridian Caeleb Dressel.
>
>You expect him to correct the spellings his parents chose?
Watch out for falling jaws, but I'm going to stooge for PTD.
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>* Peter T. Daniels:
>
>> Ryan Murphy is no Katie Ledecky. But at least he knows how to
>> spell his name, unlike Floridian Caeleb Dressel.
>
>You expect him to correct the spellings his parents chose?
It's *possible* that Caeleb's name is not how his parents spelled it.
I've known several people who have invented the spelling of their
first name just to be different.
There's no indication that this is the case here, but there's no proof
that "Caeleb" is on his birth certificate.
PTD's only error is declaring the possible a fact.
Peter Moylan
Aug 1, 2021, 1:15:43 AM8/1/21
to
taking in the Olympics.
Dingbat
Aug 1, 2021, 1:58:15 AM8/1/21
to
On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 10:32:53 PM UTC+5:30, Ken Blake wrote:
>
>
COVID: Some jabbed people have 7 time less antibodies than others | Jerusalem Post
https://www.jpost.com/health-science/covid-some-jabbed-people-have-7-time-less-antibodies-than-others-study-675206
> On 7/29/2021 8:52 AM, Charles Leviton wrote:
> > Like the "lie vs lay" debate, is "Amount vs Number" a lost cause?
> and also less vs fewer
> > Like the "lie vs lay" debate, is "Amount vs Number" a lost cause?
>
>
COVID: Some jabbed people have 7 time less antibodies than others | Jerusalem Post
https://www.jpost.com/health-science/covid-some-jabbed-people-have-7-time-less-antibodies-than-others-study-675206
Anders D. Nygaard
Aug 1, 2021, 6:42:01 AM8/1/21
to
Den 01-08-2021 kl. 02:57 skrev Quinn C:
> * Horace LaBadie:
>
>> In article <fiq8gg9mbdkcc5i6n...@4ax.com>,
>> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It wasn't "they". It was Ryan Murphy, who placed second behind the
>>> Russian in the 200-meter backstroke. He didn't say "They cheated",
>>> but did say "I’ve got about 15 thoughts. Thirteen of them would get me
>>> into a lot of trouble. It is a huge mental drain on me to go
>>> throughout the year that I’m swimming in a race that’s probably not
>>> clean.”
>>
>> And, of course, the Russian national team had been disqualified because
>> of doping in past Olympics. It's not as though that was in any doubt
>> about that. Some individual Russian athletes were permitted to compete,
>> just not as a team representing Russia.
>
> If you count 328 of them as "some individual athletes". To me, the "ban"
> feels mostly symbolic.
Several sets of "individual athletes" compete as teams in team sports.
> * Horace LaBadie:
>
>> In article <fiq8gg9mbdkcc5i6n...@4ax.com>,
>> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It wasn't "they". It was Ryan Murphy, who placed second behind the
>>> Russian in the 200-meter backstroke. He didn't say "They cheated",
>>> but did say "I’ve got about 15 thoughts. Thirteen of them would get me
>>> into a lot of trouble. It is a huge mental drain on me to go
>>> throughout the year that I’m swimming in a race that’s probably not
>>> clean.”
>>
>> And, of course, the Russian national team had been disqualified because
>> of doping in past Olympics. It's not as though that was in any doubt
>> about that. Some individual Russian athletes were permitted to compete,
>> just not as a team representing Russia.
>
> If you count 328 of them as "some individual athletes". To me, the "ban"
> feels mostly symbolic.
Yes, it is mostly symbolic.
/Anders, Denmark
Peter T. Daniels
Aug 1, 2021, 9:00:05 AM8/1/21
to
definition of "penalized"? What points are deducted from their score
because some of their erstwhile teammates were found to have been
illegally doping?
In gymnastics, penalties are shown in the score. They are given for
things like stepping outside the boundary lines upon landing a vault.
Peter T. Daniels
Aug 1, 2021, 9:02:20 AM8/1/21
to
On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 7:57:58 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 01/08/21 00:05, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Ryan Murphy is no Katie Ledecky. But at least he knows how to spell
> > his name, unlike Floridian Caeleb Dressel.
> Australian reporters all seem to pronounce Ledecky's name as Ledekky,
> despite having encountered any number of other Slavic name endings.
That's correct. Presumably all the American announcers who have
> On 01/08/21 00:05, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Ryan Murphy is no Katie Ledecky. But at least he knows how to spell
> > his name, unlike Floridian Caeleb Dressel.
> Australian reporters all seem to pronounce Ledecky's name as Ledekky,
> despite having encountered any number of other Slavic name endings.
interviewed her and describe her achievements have verified the
pronunciation with her or her representatives. (Stress on the second
syllable.)
(The comparison was that she's done better than Ryan over the years.)
Peter T. Daniels
Aug 1, 2021, 9:04:17 AM8/1/21
to
On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 9:29:02 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > Ryan Murphy is no Katie Ledecky. But at least he knows how to
> > spell his name, unlike Floridian Caeleb Dressel.
>
> You expect him to correct the spellings his parents chose?
He's over 18. Has he gotten over the trauma of every elementary-
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > Ryan Murphy is no Katie Ledecky. But at least he knows how to
> > spell his name, unlike Floridian Caeleb Dressel.
>
> You expect him to correct the spellings his parents chose?
school teacher telling him he was spelling it wrong?
Dyslexia is heritable.
Peter T. Daniels
Aug 1, 2021, 9:06:54 AM8/1/21
to
On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 11:46:48 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 21:28:53 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> >* Peter T. Daniels:
> >> Ryan Murphy is no Katie Ledecky. But at least he knows how to
> >> spell his name, unlike Floridian Caeleb Dressel.
> >You expect him to correct the spellings his parents chose?
>
> Watch out for falling jaws, but I'm going to stooge for PTD.
Not in this message, you aren't.
> On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 21:28:53 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> >* Peter T. Daniels:
> >> Ryan Murphy is no Katie Ledecky. But at least he knows how to
> >> spell his name, unlike Floridian Caeleb Dressel.
> >You expect him to correct the spellings his parents chose?
>
> Watch out for falling jaws, but I'm going to stooge for PTD.
> It's *possible* that Caeleb's name is not how his parents spelled it.
> I've known several people who have invented the spelling of their
> first name just to be different.
> There's no indication that this is the case here, but there's no proof
> that "Caeleb" is on his birth certificate.
>
> PTD's only error is declaring the possible a fact.
Especially since you revealed his, presumably younger,
sister's spelling.
Mack A. Damia
Aug 1, 2021, 11:24:32 AM8/1/21
to
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 06:00:02 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Duh? Horace didn't use the term; he said "disqualified". I used it.
>In gymnastics, penalties are shown in the score. They are given for
>things like stepping outside the boundary lines upon landing a vault.
Let me get this straight: You don't think that being disqualified
from competing is a "penalty"? Really?
Methinks your mindlessness is too much with you.
>In gymnastics, penalties are shown in the score. They are given for
>things like stepping outside the boundary lines upon landing a vault.
from competing is a "penalty"? Really?
Methinks your mindlessness is too much with you.
Mack A. Damia
Aug 1, 2021, 11:29:21 AM8/1/21
to
reading the headlines about the Olympics, I haven't watched one second
of the games.
Quinn C
Aug 1, 2021, 12:08:51 PM8/1/21
to
* Peter T. Daniels:
So many disrespectful elementary teachers would cause some trauma, for
sure. I expect the generation of teachers who thought that was ok to be
mostly retired.
--
... it might be nice to see ourselves reflected in TV shows and
Pride season campaigns, but the cis white men who invented the
gender binary still own the damn mirror.
-- Delilah Friedler at slate.com
sure. I expect the generation of teachers who thought that was ok to be
mostly retired.
--
... it might be nice to see ourselves reflected in TV shows and
Pride season campaigns, but the cis white men who invented the
gender binary still own the damn mirror.
-- Delilah Friedler at slate.com
Peter T. Daniels
Aug 1, 2021, 12:52:46 PM8/1/21
to
Why is it so hard for you to grasp the difference?
Mack A. Damia
Aug 1, 2021, 1:08:19 PM8/1/21
to
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 09:52:43 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Twist and shout, Daniels.
You are really screwed up, and you don't realize it.
You are really screwed up, and you don't realize it.
Snidely
Aug 1, 2021, 1:28:59 PM8/1/21
to
Mack A. Damia suggested that ...
Was the ROC team penalized? No, the Russian team was.
You should practice clear thinking.
/dps
--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean
You should practice clear thinking.
/dps
--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean
Mack A. Damia
Aug 1, 2021, 3:25:34 PM8/1/21
to
On Sun, 01 Aug 2021 10:28:51 -0700, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:
You should practice reading comprehension. You have been infected
with Daniels-double-speak.
Nowhere have I said that the ROC team was penalized. Nowhere. You
may be delusional as well.
Horace: Russian team has been disqualified.
Me: Russian athletes been penalized.
PTD: How are they being penalized?
Tony: Of course they are being penalized
Yup! "Delusional".
wrote:
with Daniels-double-speak.
Nowhere have I said that the ROC team was penalized. Nowhere. You
may be delusional as well.
Horace: Russian team has been disqualified.
Me: Russian athletes been penalized.
PTD: How are they being penalized?
Tony: Of course they are being penalized
Yup! "Delusional".
Mack A. Damia
Aug 1, 2021, 3:50:00 PM8/1/21
to
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 09:52:43 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
The dopers on the Russian team caused the entire Russian team to be
disqualified (penalized).
The remaining athletes who wanted to compete did so under the banner
of R.O.C.
Did the penny drop yet?
disqualified (penalized).
The remaining athletes who wanted to compete did so under the banner
of R.O.C.
Did the penny drop yet?
Peter T. Daniels
Aug 1, 2021, 4:06:37 PM8/1/21
to
Incidentally, the gymnastics announcers have been scrupulous about
saying "Russian Olympic Committee team" (not even saying "R.O.C.,"
presumably because Over Here that means Republic of China, which
for decades at the Olympics has been called "Chinese Taipei."
The swimming announcers, led by Rowdy Gaines, whose heday was
L.A. '84, just say "Russia" and "Russians."
But since you've claimed not to have watched one minute of it, it's
clear that you know absolutely nothing about it and lack the standing
to pontificate on the matter.
> Did the penny drop yet?
>
> >Why is it so hard for you to grasp the difference?
Mack A. Damia
Aug 1, 2021, 4:25:17 PM8/1/21
to
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:06:34 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Are you on drugs, Daniels?
>Incidentally, the gymnastics announcers have been scrupulous about
>saying "Russian Olympic Committee team" (not even saying "R.O.C.,"
>presumably because Over Here that means Republic of China, which
>for decades at the Olympics has been called "Chinese Taipei."
Have you looked at the news - or the games? What do they say?
https://images.wsj.net/im-375629?width=860&height=573
https://i2-prod.walesonline.co.uk/incoming/article21193674.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200c/0_GettyImages-1331600837.jpg
What THREE letters do YOU see, Daniels?
>The swimming announcers, led by Rowdy Gaines, whose heday was
>L.A. '84, just say "Russia" and "Russians."
>
>But since you've claimed not to have watched one minute of it, it's
>clear that you know absolutely nothing about it and lack the standing
>to pontificate on the matter.
Actually watching the games themselves won't give you the details of
this issue. This comes through on the world news - 24/7.
>> Did the penny drop yet?
>>
>> >Why is it so hard for you to grasp the difference?
>
>I won't retype the above question.
>
>> >> Methinks your mindlessness is too much with you.
I think you have to know you are wrong and confused, but you are too
much of a coward to admit it.
>Incidentally, the gymnastics announcers have been scrupulous about
>saying "Russian Olympic Committee team" (not even saying "R.O.C.,"
>presumably because Over Here that means Republic of China, which
>for decades at the Olympics has been called "Chinese Taipei."
https://images.wsj.net/im-375629?width=860&height=573
https://i2-prod.walesonline.co.uk/incoming/article21193674.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200c/0_GettyImages-1331600837.jpg
What THREE letters do YOU see, Daniels?
>The swimming announcers, led by Rowdy Gaines, whose heday was
>L.A. '84, just say "Russia" and "Russians."
>
>But since you've claimed not to have watched one minute of it, it's
>clear that you know absolutely nothing about it and lack the standing
>to pontificate on the matter.
this issue. This comes through on the world news - 24/7.
>> Did the penny drop yet?
>>
>> >Why is it so hard for you to grasp the difference?
>
>I won't retype the above question.
>
>> >> Methinks your mindlessness is too much with you.
much of a coward to admit it.
Tony Cooper
Aug 1, 2021, 4:32:54 PM8/1/21
to
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:06:34 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> The remaining athletes who wanted to compete did so under the banner
>> of R.O.C.
>
>They were ipso facto neither disqualified nor penalized.
I think you are being too literal in your understanding of
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> The remaining athletes who wanted to compete did so under the banner
>> of R.O.C.
>
>They were ipso facto neither disqualified nor penalized.
"penalized". The fact that they cannot compete under the Russian
flag, they will not hear the Russian anthem if they podium, and that
their achievements will not be listed as the Russian team's
achievements penalizes them.
The intent was to penalize the Russian sporting federation, but the
R.O.C. team members are serving out the penalty.
Snidely
Aug 1, 2021, 4:54:04 PM8/1/21
to
On Sunday, Tony Cooper queried:
I agree with PTD that the Russian team was penalized, not the ROC.
Playing of the anthem is minor compared to not being at the Games at
all.
/dps
--
Who, me? And what lacuna?
Playing of the anthem is minor compared to not being at the Games at
all.
/dps
--
Who, me? And what lacuna?
Peter T. Daniels
Aug 1, 2021, 5:14:58 PM8/1/21
to
On Sunday, August 1, 2021 at 4:32:54 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:06:34 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> The remaining athletes who wanted to compete did so under the banner
> >> of R.O.C.
> >They were ipso facto neither disqualified nor penalized.
>
> I think you are being too literal in your understanding of
> "penalized". The fact that they cannot compete under the Russian
> flag, they will not hear the Russian anthem if they podium, and that
> their achievements will not be listed as the Russian team's
> achievements penalizes them.
You make them sound like the flag-idolaters some of the Brits
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:06:34 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> The remaining athletes who wanted to compete did so under the banner
> >> of R.O.C.
> >They were ipso facto neither disqualified nor penalized.
>
> I think you are being too literal in your understanding of
> "penalized". The fact that they cannot compete under the Russian
> flag, they will not hear the Russian anthem if they podium, and that
> their achievements will not be listed as the Russian team's
> achievements penalizes them.
and Dutchies here like to complain Americans are.
> The intent was to penalize the Russian sporting federation, but the
> R.O.C. team members are serving out the penalty.
in the name.
Tony Cooper
Aug 1, 2021, 6:45:40 PM8/1/21
to
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 14:14:55 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
"flag-idolators".
The added penalty on the R.O.C. athletes is that their name in a list
of medal-winners or record-holders will be asterisked in any account
of Russian athletics. It will be like a wind-aided record.
>
>> The intent was to penalize the Russian sporting federation, but the
>> R.O.C. team members are serving out the penalty.
>
>Unlike, say, the Refugees team, their country is fully identified
>in the name.
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>On Sunday, August 1, 2021 at 4:32:54 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:06:34 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> >> The remaining athletes who wanted to compete did so under the banner
>> >> of R.O.C.
>> >They were ipso facto neither disqualified nor penalized.
>>
>> I think you are being too literal in your understanding of
>> "penalized". The fact that they cannot compete under the Russian
>> flag, they will not hear the Russian anthem if they podium, and that
>> their achievements will not be listed as the Russian team's
>> achievements penalizes them.
>
>You make them sound like the flag-idolaters some of the Brits
>and Dutchies here like to complain Americans are.
I would not equate pride in representing one's country as being
>On Sunday, August 1, 2021 at 4:32:54 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:06:34 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> >> The remaining athletes who wanted to compete did so under the banner
>> >> of R.O.C.
>> >They were ipso facto neither disqualified nor penalized.
>>
>> I think you are being too literal in your understanding of
>> "penalized". The fact that they cannot compete under the Russian
>> flag, they will not hear the Russian anthem if they podium, and that
>> their achievements will not be listed as the Russian team's
>> achievements penalizes them.
>
>You make them sound like the flag-idolaters some of the Brits
>and Dutchies here like to complain Americans are.
"flag-idolators".
The added penalty on the R.O.C. athletes is that their name in a list
of medal-winners or record-holders will be asterisked in any account
of Russian athletics. It will be like a wind-aided record.
>
>> The intent was to penalize the Russian sporting federation, but the
>> R.O.C. team members are serving out the penalty.
>
>Unlike, say, the Refugees team, their country is fully identified
>in the name.
Quinn C
Aug 1, 2021, 9:11:58 PM8/1/21
to
* Snidely:
> On Sunday, Tony Cooper queried:
>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:06:34 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> The remaining athletes who wanted to compete did so under the banner
>>>> of R.O.C.
>>>
>>> They were ipso facto neither disqualified nor penalized.
>>
>> I think you are being too literal in your understanding of
>> "penalized". The fact that they cannot compete under the Russian
>> flag, they will not hear the Russian anthem if they podium, and that
>> their achievements will not be listed as the Russian team's
>> achievements penalizes them.
>>
>> The intent was to penalize the Russian sporting federation, but the
>> R.O.C. team members are serving out the penalty.
>
> I agree with PTD that the Russian team was penalized, not the ROC.
I disagree. The Russian team is (organized by) the ROC. I say the
Russian state was penalized.
--
Some of the most horrific things ever done to humans
were done by the politest, best-dressed, most well-spoken
people from the very best homes and neighborhoods.
-- Jerry Springer
> On Sunday, Tony Cooper queried:
>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:06:34 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> The remaining athletes who wanted to compete did so under the banner
>>>> of R.O.C.
>>>
>>> They were ipso facto neither disqualified nor penalized.
>>
>> I think you are being too literal in your understanding of
>> "penalized". The fact that they cannot compete under the Russian
>> flag, they will not hear the Russian anthem if they podium, and that
>> their achievements will not be listed as the Russian team's
>> achievements penalizes them.
>>
>> The intent was to penalize the Russian sporting federation, but the
>> R.O.C. team members are serving out the penalty.
>
> I agree with PTD that the Russian team was penalized, not the ROC.
Russian state was penalized.
--
Some of the most horrific things ever done to humans
were done by the politest, best-dressed, most well-spoken
people from the very best homes and neighborhoods.
-- Jerry Springer
Peter Moylan
Aug 1, 2021, 11:08:32 PM8/1/21
to
spellings of baby names. Remember those web sites where people would
write in saying "I want to call my baby girl McKenzie but I don't want
it to be like anyone else's name. How does Muckwibbleenzie sound? Should
I add a 'q' somewhere?"?
Those babies are now adults. They've learnt to live with the names
because half of their contemporaries also have funny-looking names.
Dingbat
Aug 5, 2021, 11:55:26 AM8/5/21
to
I knew a Czech named Klecka who pronounced his name as Kletchka, not Kletzka.
And he said his distant relative Cissy Spacek's name had an original pronunciation
of Spa-check.
Quinn C
Aug 5, 2021, 12:12:09 PM8/5/21
to
* Dingbat:
The tch sound is written č in Czech, so that name was probably Klečka in
the original, whereas Ledecky doesn't contain a č.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ledecky>
Czech people of that name seem to write it Ledecký (the accent marks a
long vowel). Women would in the mother country be Ledecká. I remember
how when I last visited Prague, the cinema advertised a new feature with
Kim Basingerova.
> And he said his distant relative Cissy Spacek's name had an original
> pronunciation of Spa-check.
That seems to be, at least usually, Špaček, i.e. Shpatchek in Czech
pronunciation.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_%C5%A0pa%C4%8Dek>
--
Trans people are scapegoated for the impossibilities of this two-box
system, but the system harms all of us. Most people have felt ashamed
of the ways we don't conform to whatever narrow idea of man or woman
has been prescribed onto our bodies -- H.P.Keenan in Slate
the original, whereas Ledecky doesn't contain a č.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ledecky>
Czech people of that name seem to write it Ledecký (the accent marks a
long vowel). Women would in the mother country be Ledecká. I remember
how when I last visited Prague, the cinema advertised a new feature with
Kim Basingerova.
> And he said his distant relative Cissy Spacek's name had an original
> pronunciation of Spa-check.
pronunciation.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_%C5%A0pa%C4%8Dek>
--
Trans people are scapegoated for the impossibilities of this two-box
system, but the system harms all of us. Most people have felt ashamed
of the ways we don't conform to whatever narrow idea of man or woman
has been prescribed onto our bodies -- H.P.Keenan in Slate
Garrett Wollman
Aug 5, 2021, 12:31:11 PM8/5/21
to
In article <s40cgghtks6g43eea...@4ax.com>,
his passport.
Of course, in olden times, doctors and recording clerks would
"correct" "misspelled" names on birth records. (And in even more
olden times, the name of the child was not even decided until they
survived a long enough for a formal naming ceremony or baptism.)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wol...@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>It's *possible* that Caeleb's name is not how his parents spelled it.
>I've known several people who have invented the spelling of their
>first name just to be different.
>
>It's *possible* that Caeleb's name is not how his parents spelled it.
>I've known several people who have invented the spelling of their
>first name just to be different.
>
>There's no indication that this is the case here, but there's no proof
>that "Caeleb" is on his birth certificate.
There is, however, substantial evidence that that is the spelling on
>that "Caeleb" is on his birth certificate.
his passport.
Of course, in olden times, doctors and recording clerks would
"correct" "misspelled" names on birth records. (And in even more
olden times, the name of the child was not even decided until they
survived a long enough for a formal naming ceremony or baptism.)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wol...@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Quinn C
Aug 5, 2021, 1:00:24 PM8/5/21
to
* Garrett Wollman:
> In article <s40cgghtks6g43eea...@4ax.com>,
> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>It's *possible* that Caeleb's name is not how his parents spelled it.
>>I've known several people who have invented the spelling of their
>>first name just to be different.
>>
>>There's no indication that this is the case here, but there's no proof
>>that "Caeleb" is on his birth certificate.
>
> There is, however, substantial evidence that that is the spelling on
> his passport.
>
> Of course, in olden times, doctors and recording clerks would
> "correct" "misspelled" names on birth records.
Thanks for all the scare quotes. I've seen several instances where a
family name changed in the official record because the record keeper
couldn't read the handwriting of their predecessor.
--
Americans are not that comfortable with being uncomfortable.
-- Veronica Osorio
> In article <s40cgghtks6g43eea...@4ax.com>,
> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>It's *possible* that Caeleb's name is not how his parents spelled it.
>>I've known several people who have invented the spelling of their
>>first name just to be different.
>>
>>There's no indication that this is the case here, but there's no proof
>>that "Caeleb" is on his birth certificate.
>
> There is, however, substantial evidence that that is the spelling on
> his passport.
>
> Of course, in olden times, doctors and recording clerks would
> "correct" "misspelled" names on birth records.
family name changed in the official record because the record keeper
couldn't read the handwriting of their predecessor.
--
Americans are not that comfortable with being uncomfortable.
-- Veronica Osorio
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Aug 6, 2021, 2:33:25 AM8/6/21
to
On 2021-08-05 16:31:08 +0000, Garrett Wollman said:
> In article <s40cgghtks6g43eea...@4ax.com>,
> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's *possible* that Caeleb's name is not how his parents spelled it.
>> I've known several people who have invented the spelling of their
>> first name just to be different.
>>
>> There's no indication that this is the case here, but there's no proof
>> that "Caeleb" is on his birth certificate.
>
> There is, however, substantial evidence that that is the spelling on
> his passport.
>
> Of course, in olden times, doctors and recording clerks would
> "correct" "misspelled" names on birth records. (And in even more
> olden times, the name of the child was not even decided until they
> survived a long enough for a formal naming ceremony or baptism.)
Brought up as I was in the bosom of the Church of England I remember
> In article <s40cgghtks6g43eea...@4ax.com>,
> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's *possible* that Caeleb's name is not how his parents spelled it.
>> I've known several people who have invented the spelling of their
>> first name just to be different.
>>
>> There's no indication that this is the case here, but there's no proof
>> that "Caeleb" is on his birth certificate.
>
> There is, however, substantial evidence that that is the spelling on
> his passport.
>
> Of course, in olden times, doctors and recording clerks would
> "correct" "misspelled" names on birth records. (And in even more
> olden times, the name of the child was not even decided until they
> survived a long enough for a formal naming ceremony or baptism.)
being surprised at the idea that babies already had names before they
were baptised.
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.
Dingbat
Aug 6, 2021, 5:00:00 AM8/6/21
to
the nuances of its pronunciation. Or I might not have noticed how he
pronounced the Š since the distinctive feature, to my ear, was the č.
Tak To
Aug 8, 2021, 1:27:40 PM8/8/21
to
There was a US TV Series called /Banacek/ in the 70s. The
eponymous detective was Polish. His name was pronounced
with a [tS]. It was made very clear, especially in the
occasions when Banacek corrected the (sometimes deliberate)
mispronunciations.
I read an article (probably in /Esquire/) complaining that if
the detective was Polish, why wasn't the name spelled
"Banaczek"; and if the name was "Banacek", why wasn't he a
Czech.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Dingbat
Aug 9, 2021, 5:53:14 AM8/9/21
to
On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 10:57:40 PM UTC+5:30, Tak To wrote:
> I read an article (probably in /Esquire/) complaining that if
> the detective was Polish, why wasn't the name spelled
> "Banaczek"; and if the name was "Banacek", why wasn't he a
> Czech.
>
AFAIK, it would have to be Banaćek to have a [t͡ɕ] pronunciation.
> I read an article (probably in /Esquire/) complaining that if
> the detective was Polish, why wasn't the name spelled
> "Banaczek"; and if the name was "Banacek", why wasn't he a
> Czech.
>
[tS] is spelled <cz>; the anglophone might not distinguish it from ć.
FWIW, Polish c, ć and cz are similar to z, q and ch in Mandarin.
Tak To
Aug 10, 2021, 5:52:59 PM8/10/21
to
On 8/9/2021 5:53 AM, Dingbat wrote:
> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 10:57:40 PM UTC+5:30, Tak To wrote:
>> I read an article (probably in /Esquire/) complaining that if
>> the detective was Polish, why wasn't the name spelled
>> "Banaczek"; and if the name was "Banacek", why wasn't he a
>> Czech.
>>
> AFAIK, it would have to be Banaćek to have a [t͡ɕ] pronunciation.> [tS] is spelled <cz>; the anglophone might not distinguish it from ć.
In the US, Anglophones are generally told to pronounce a <cz>
> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 10:57:40 PM UTC+5:30, Tak To wrote:
>> I read an article (probably in /Esquire/) complaining that if
>> the detective was Polish, why wasn't the name spelled
>> "Banaczek"; and if the name was "Banacek", why wasn't he a
>> Czech.
>>
> AFAIK, it would have to be Banaćek to have a [t͡ɕ] pronunciation.> [tS] is spelled <cz>; the anglophone might not distinguish it from ć.
that appears in a Polish name as [tS]. I don't know how common
the <c> and <ć> are in Polish, but <ć> will probably get written
as <c> in the US in any case. I haven't come across a guide for
pronouncing <c> in Polish names. I suspect that most Anglophone
would follow the English convention and use [s]/[k].
> FWIW, Polish c, ć and cz are similar to z, q and ch in Mandarin.
I don't know if these voiceless Polish consonants are aspirated,
but all Mandarin affricates are voiceless and distinguishable
only by aspiration. (The first of each pair is aspirated.)
----- -----
As usual, the c-curl (same as c-cedilla) and z-curl convention
causes a lot of confusion as they are used to transcribe both
the 'alveolo-palatal' (Mandarin[1]) and 'palatal' (German[2],
Malayam[3]) sounds. The Polish sound is described as
'(alveolo)-palatal'[4], but the sample sounds 'postalveolar'
(i.e., [tS]) or 'palatal' to me. Could it be an allophone
situation as in Malayam?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_German_phonology
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayalam
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_phonology
Dingbat
Aug 11, 2021, 12:42:44 PM8/11/21
to
On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 3:22:59 AM UTC+5:30, Tak To wrote:
> On 8/9/2021 5:53 AM, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 10:57:40 PM UTC+5:30, Tak To wrote:
> >> I read an article (probably in /Esquire/) complaining that if
> >> the detective was Polish, why wasn't the name spelled
> >> "Banaczek"; and if the name was "Banacek", why wasn't he a
> >> Czech.
> >>
> > AFAIK, it would have to be Banaćek to have a [t͡ɕ] pronunciation.
> > [tS] is spelled <cz>; the anglophone might not distinguish it from ć.
> In the US, Anglophones are generally told to pronounce a <cz>
> that appears in a Polish name as [tS]. I don't know how common
> the <c> and <ć> are in Polish, but <ć> will probably get written
> as <c> in the US in any case. I haven't come across a guide for
> pronouncing <c> in Polish names. I suspect that most Anglophone
> would follow the English convention and use [s]/[k].
> > FWIW, Polish c, ć and cz are similar to z, q and ch in Mandarin.
> c/z, q/j, ch/zh
> I don't know if these voiceless Polish consonants are aspirated,
> but all Mandarin affricates are voiceless and distinguishable
> only by aspiration. (The first of each pair is aspirated.)
An Anglophone trying to imitate Polish pronunciation would aspirate
> On 8/9/2021 5:53 AM, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 10:57:40 PM UTC+5:30, Tak To wrote:
> >> I read an article (probably in /Esquire/) complaining that if
> >> the detective was Polish, why wasn't the name spelled
> >> "Banaczek"; and if the name was "Banacek", why wasn't he a
> >> Czech.
> >>
> > AFAIK, it would have to be Banaćek to have a [t͡ɕ] pronunciation.
> > [tS] is spelled <cz>; the anglophone might not distinguish it from ć.
> In the US, Anglophones are generally told to pronounce a <cz>
> that appears in a Polish name as [tS]. I don't know how common
> the <c> and <ć> are in Polish, but <ć> will probably get written
> as <c> in the US in any case. I haven't come across a guide for
> pronouncing <c> in Polish names. I suspect that most Anglophone
> would follow the English convention and use [s]/[k].
> > FWIW, Polish c, ć and cz are similar to z, q and ch in Mandarin.
> c/z, q/j, ch/zh
> I don't know if these voiceless Polish consonants are aspirated,
> but all Mandarin affricates are voiceless and distinguishable
> only by aspiration. (The first of each pair is aspirated.)
ć and cz but not c. That would probably be acceptable to Polish
listeners if the articulations are otherwise right.
Chinese z always sounds unvoiced. The other two vary. My Wu language
speaker always voices j when speaking Mandarin. I have heard unvoiced zh
in one speaker's pronunciation of Zhao but I have also heard it voiced like in
judge from Wu speakers. I have even heard it voiced by a resident of
Shenzhen which is a Mandarin speaking city. In this clip by a Shenzen
resident, j and zh sound voiced to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3ZBvMAPqsg
>
> ----- -----
>
> As usual, the c-curl (same as c-cedilla) and z-curl convention
> causes a lot of confusion as they are used to transcribe both
> the 'alveolo-palatal' (Mandarin[1]) and 'palatal' (German[2],
> Malayam[3]) sounds. The Polish sound is described as
> '(alveolo)-palatal'[4], but the sample sounds 'postalveolar'
> (i.e., [tS]) or 'palatal' to me. Could it be an allophone
> situation as in Malayam?
It sounds palatal to me despite being described as alveolo-palatal.
> ----- -----
>
> As usual, the c-curl (same as c-cedilla) and z-curl convention
> causes a lot of confusion as they are used to transcribe both
> the 'alveolo-palatal' (Mandarin[1]) and 'palatal' (German[2],
> Malayam[3]) sounds. The Polish sound is described as
> '(alveolo)-palatal'[4], but the sample sounds 'postalveolar'
> (i.e., [tS]) or 'palatal' to me. Could it be an allophone
> situation as in Malayam?
The Chinese X, however, does sound alveolo-palatal. This makes
their Xi sound odd since I'm used to a palatal adjacent to [i:] and [e:]
in Malayalam where affricates can be alveolo-palatal only adjacent
to back vowels and post alveolar only adjacent to a cerebral stop,
often across a morpheme/ word boundary, or in loan words like
puncture. I find French lignes similarly odd for having an
alveolo-palatal rather than palatal nasal adjacent to [i:].
Tak To
Aug 12, 2021, 3:15:32 PM8/12/21
to
Quite possible, as Wu languages typically have a three way
tenuis-apirated-voiced distinction for some of the consonants.
I have heard unvoiced zh
> in one speaker's pronunciation of Zhao but I have also heard it voiced like in
> judge from Wu speakers.
understandable that a native Wu speaker might voice some of
them.
> I have even heard it voiced by a resident of
> Shenzhen which is a Mandarin speaking city.
is "Mandarin speaking" -- the population has a significant
portion of recent immigrants who are native Mandarin speakers,
while almost all the locals (Yue native speakers) can speak
Mandarin as a second language with varying degree of competence.
And Mandarin is the default language except in private situations
between two locals.
> In this clip by a Shenzen
> resident, j and zh sound voiced to me:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3ZBvMAPqsg
hard to tell.
>> ----- -----
>>
>> As usual, the c-curl (same as c-cedilla) and z-curl convention
>> causes a lot of confusion as they are used to transcribe both
>> the 'alveolo-palatal' (Mandarin[1]) and 'palatal' (German[2],
>> Malayam[3]) sounds. The Polish sound is described as
>> '(alveolo)-palatal'[4], but the sample sounds 'postalveolar'
>> (i.e., [tS]) or 'palatal' to me. Could it be an allophone
>> situation as in Malayam?
>
> It sounds palatal to me despite being described as alveolo-palatal.
> The Chinese X, however, does sound alveolo-palatal.
that "s" is closer than "sh".
> This makes
> their Xi sound odd since I'm used to a palatal adjacent to [i:] and [e:]
> in Malayalam where affricates can be alveolo-palatal only adjacent
> to back vowels and post alveolar only adjacent to a cerebral stop,
> often across a morpheme/ word boundary, or in loan words like
> puncture.
palatal and alveolo-palatal. Is this what you are saying?
front vowel, morpheme initial : postalveolar
back vowel, morpheme initial : postalveolar
front vowel, elsewhere : palatal
back vowel, elsewhere: alveolo-palatal
FWIW the Mandarin alveolo-palatals (x, j, q) appears only
before [i] an [y] (final or medial) and the denti-aveolars
(s, c, z) and the retroflexes (sh, ch, zh) never before
them. The i in <si> etc is not an [i] but a shwa -- the
syllable is a vocalized consonant.
> I find French lignes similarly odd for having an
> alveolo-palatal rather than palatal nasal adjacent to [i:].
-- but then I don't have anything to contrast it with.
https://forvo.com/word/ligne/#fr
I suspect we have to bring in the apical-laminal dimension
to clarify all these cases.
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