Tragedy Near Orlando

[Mack A. Damia]

ORLANDO — Some 50 wildlife specialists, including a trained alligator
trapper, were combing a lake Wednesday at a Disney World resort hotel
looking for a 2-year-old boy snatched while wading on a beach by a 7-
to 8-foot alligator.

The effort was still considered a “search and rescue operation,” said
Jeff Williamson, a spokesman for the Orange County Sheriff’s
Department.

“We are very hopeful,” he said at a morning news conference.
“Sometimes you get the worst, but we are hoping for the best.”

The reptile grabbed the toddler Tuesday evening as the boy played in
about a foot of water at the Seven Seas Lagoon at the Grand Floridian
Hotel with his father.

"The father entered the water, and he tried to grab the child, but was
not successful in doing so," Orange County Sheriff Jerry Demings told
reporters at an early morning news conference.

The mother also rushed into the water to try to save the boy. When the
frantic couple was unable to pull their son to safety, they alerted a
nearby lifeguard who called 911. The father received minor injuries to
his hand.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/15/alligator-two-year-old-child-disney-world-hotel-florida

[Pablo]

Mack A. Damia wrote:

> ORLANDO

"The reptile grabbed the toddler Tuesday evening as the boy played..."

Same person?

--

Pablo

http://www.ipernity.com/home/313627
https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 1:11:41 PM UTC-4, Pablo wrote:
> Mack A. Damia wrote:

> > ORLANDO
>
> "The reptile grabbed the toddler Tuesday evening as the boy played..."
>
> Same person?

Fowler calls that "elegant variation" and deprecates it.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Mack A. Damia skrev:

> ORLANDO — Some 50 wildlife specialists, including a trained alligator
> trapper, were combing a lake Wednesday at a Disney World resort hotel
> looking for a 2-year-old boy snatched while wading on a beach by a 7-
> to 8-foot alligator.

Can you unsign me from this newspaper, please? I thought that I
had joined a group about language, but being new to this medium
as I am, I must have made some mistake, and I don't know how to
correct it.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Hmm. I'm not sure that occasional posts not about English usage are as
irritating as endless posts about Danish usage.


--
athel

[musika]

Hør, hør.


--
Ray
UK

[CDB]

On 16/06/2016 6:43 AM, musika wrote:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> Bertel Lund Hansen said:
>>> Mack A. Damia skrev:

>>>> ORLANDO — Some 50 wildlife specialists, including a trained
>>>> alligator trapper, were combing a lake Wednesday at a Disney
>>>> World resort hotel looking for a 2-year-old boy snatched while
>>>> wading on a beach by a 7- to 8-foot alligator.

>>> Can you unsign me from this newspaper, please? I thought that I
>>> had joined a group about language, but being new to this medium
>>> as I am, I must have made some mistake, and I don't know how to
>>> correct it.

Perhaps Mack's point was the ambiguity of "by" in that sentence. Was
the child snatched by, or was he wading by, that alligator? Probably both.

>> Hmm. I'm not sure that occasional posts not about English usage are
>> as irritating as endless posts about Danish usage.

> Hør, hør.

I'm happy to hear about usage, since Danish is a language which has
had some influence on English. Danish daily life is off-topic, though,
and should be kept in proportion. IMO.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Within reason, yes, but a deluge of posts of marginal interest is not
within reason.

> Danish daily life is off-topic, though,
> and should be kept in proportion. IMO.

--
athel

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Athel Cornish-Bowden skrev:

> Hmm. I'm not sure that occasional posts not about English usage
> are as irritating as endless posts about Danish usage.

1. I have never started a thread with a subject that was not
about English language.
2. I have never complained about a message within a thread based
on it's not dealing with English language.
3. I don't think that my percentage of OT messages is worse than
that of many other mebers of this group.
4. News media in English-speaking countries are neither filled
with news about the Danish language nor about daily life in
Denmark. I, on the other hand, can't turn on my tv or radio
without hearing about the two incidents that Mack A. Damia has
deemed it relevant to repeat in this newsgroup.

A question:
Are reports about daily life in some region more relevant if the
first language of this region is English?

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Peter T. Daniels]

The boy's body was found very near where it was "snatched." He was not eaten by
an alligator, so the murder of four alligators was meaningless. It was taken
for autopsy, which will presumably determine whether he died from a bite or
subsequently from drowning.

As with the little boy at the zoo who caused the murder of a gorilla, this was
another case of parental laxity. Who takes their family wading in a lagoon at
9:30 at night?

[Cheryl]

On 2016-06-16 12:21 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> The boy's body was found very near where it was "snatched." He was not eaten by
> an alligator, so the murder of four alligators was meaningless. It was taken
> for autopsy, which will presumably determine whether he died from a bite or
> subsequently from drowning.
>
> As with the little boy at the zoo who caused the murder of a gorilla, this was
> another case of parental laxity. Who takes their family wading in a lagoon at
> 9:30 at night?
>

Can you murder an animal? I think that usage is merely a rhetorical
device intended to startle the listener or reader.

If the water weren't so bloody cold here, I might go wading at 9:30 PM,
since it's still not full dark by then.

I probably wouldn't go wading at any time of day or night if I were in a
place with waters infested with dangerous reptiles, but a lot of people
don't share my nervousness.

--
Cheryl

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:51:58 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>On 2016-06-16 08:18:09 +0000, Bertel Lund Hansen said:
>
>> Mack A. Damia skrev:
>>

>>> ORLANDO ? Some 50 wildlife specialists, including a trained alligator

>>> trapper, were combing a lake Wednesday at a Disney World resort hotel
>>> looking for a 2-year-old boy snatched while wading on a beach by a 7-
>>> to 8-foot alligator.
>>
>> Can you unsign me from this newspaper, please? I thought that I
>> had joined a group about language, but being new to this medium
>> as I am, I must have made some mistake, and I don't know how to
>> correct it.
>
>Hmm. I'm not sure that occasional posts not about English usage are as
>irritating as endless posts about Danish usage.

Yes. If the child had been riding a bicycle at water's edge, Bertel
would have responded on the subject of Danish bicycle road rules not
allowing this.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:02:15 -0400, CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 16/06/2016 6:43 AM, musika wrote:
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> Bertel Lund Hansen said:
>>>> Mack A. Damia skrev:
>

>>>>> ORLANDO ? Some 50 wildlife specialists, including a trained

>>>>> alligator trapper, were combing a lake Wednesday at a Disney
>>>>> World resort hotel looking for a 2-year-old boy snatched while
>>>>> wading on a beach by a 7- to 8-foot alligator.
>
>>>> Can you unsign me from this newspaper, please? I thought that I
>>>> had joined a group about language, but being new to this medium
>>>> as I am, I must have made some mistake, and I don't know how to
>>>> correct it.
>
>Perhaps Mack's point was the ambiguity of "by" in that sentence. Was
>the child snatched by, or was he wading by, that alligator? Probably both.

I don't know what's in Mack's mind, but I thought the point was that
Orlando has been the scene of three horrific incidents in the span of
one week.

There are indications that members of the Westboro Baptist Church are
enroute to Orlando to disrupt the funeral and memorial services of the
deceased, so we may be in for a fourth horrific incident.

While I am a strong supporter of gun control, I would not have an
objection to arming the family members attending these services with
AR-15s should the Westboro group show up.

[Richard Tobin]

In article <dsftc2...@mid.individual.net>,

Cheryl <cper...@med.mun.ca> wrote:

>Can you murder an animal?

No, of course not.

>I think that usage is merely a rhetorical
>device intended to startle the listener or reader.

Or else it's used by someone who doesn't value human life higher than
that of animals.

-- Richard

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-06-16 14:32:24 +0000, Cheryl said:

> On 2016-06-16 12:21 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> The boy's body was found very near where it was "snatched." He was not eaten by
>> an alligator, so the murder of four alligators was meaningless. It was taken
>> for autopsy, which will presumably determine whether he died from a bite or
>> subsequently from drowning.
>>
>> As with the little boy at the zoo who caused the murder of a gorilla, this was
>> another case of parental laxity. Who takes their family wading in a lagoon at
>> 9:30 at night?
>>
>
> Can you murder an animal? I think that usage is merely a rhetorical
> device intended to startle the listener or reader.
>
> If the water weren't so bloody cold here, I might go wading at 9:30 PM,
> since it's still not full dark by then.

I imagine that the danger of being eaten by an alligator isn't all that
great where you live?

>
> I probably wouldn't go wading at any time of day or night if I were in
> a place with waters infested with dangerous reptiles, but a lot of
> people don't share my nervousness.


--

athel

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

I'm not sure of the exact place where the boy was snatched, but the
hotels are at the edge of the lagoon.

The image below shows searchers in a boat on the lagoon just in front of
a hotel. The time taken to walk from the hotel to the edge of the lagoon
and to then walk into the shallow water would be a measured in seconds,
not minutes. The lagoon has every appearance of being an extension of
the hotel facilities. There are many lights visible so it wouldn't have
been dark at 9:30 in the evening.

http://tinyurl.com/jf53bwe
or
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/15/13/354DEE3800000578-3642167-Search_and_rescue_crews_continued_to_comb_a_lake_at_the_Walt_Dis-a-51_1465992733481.jpg

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Tony Cooper]

What many people don't realize about alligators is the speed at which
they move when going after prey. They virtually explode out of the
water.

Years ago I took my son fishing at a local lake, and the family dog
was with us. The dog was sniffing around the water's edge but not so
close that her paws were in the water.

A 'gator lunged after the dog but missed. The move was about as close
to being a literal blur of motion as can be imagined.

We had not seen any 'gators in the water prior to this, but anyone who
has been in Florida any length of time knows that there can be
alligators in any body of water. There have been alligators in the
water hazards on the golf course on which I live. The water hazards
are not connected by canal, stream, or river to any other body of
water. No one is sure how they get there, but some say the alligators
come through the drainage pipes that connect the water hazards to
lakes where overflow is intended to go in periods of heavy rain.

[Cheryl]

On 2016-06-16 1:26 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:

> What many people don't realize about alligators is the speed at which
> they move when going after prey. They virtually explode out of the
> water.
>
> Years ago I took my son fishing at a local lake, and the family dog
> was with us. The dog was sniffing around the water's edge but not so
> close that her paws were in the water.
>
> A 'gator lunged after the dog but missed. The move was about as close
> to being a literal blur of motion as can be imagined.
>
> We had not seen any 'gators in the water prior to this, but anyone who
> has been in Florida any length of time knows that there can be
> alligators in any body of water. There have been alligators in the
> water hazards on the golf course on which I live. The water hazards
> are not connected by canal, stream, or river to any other body of
> water. No one is sure how they get there, but some say the alligators
> come through the drainage pipes that connect the water hazards to
> lakes where overflow is intended to go in periods of heavy rain.

Bears can move surprisingly fast, too, over short distances. The black
bears we have locally aren't very dangerous to humans, though. There are
very few attacks on record, although it's still not a good idea to
encourage them to come around humans by leaving garbage around because
if they're upset, they just might attack, and mama bears are noted for
getting very aggressive very fast if they someone gets between them and
their cubs. It sounds like alligators and crocodiles are much more
aggressive

When I was a child we used to go to a dump to watch the bears - quite up
close and personal, really, no guardrails or warning signs. That doesn't
happen any more - garbage in areas with a lot of bears is disposed of in
ways that don't attract them.

Bears used to kind of do the tour of the garbage cans in at least one
local campsite, too, but I think that's been discouraged too by changing
the method of garbage disposal.

--
Cheryl

[Mack A. Damia]

On Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:10:52 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:02:15 -0400, CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 16/06/2016 6:43 AM, musika wrote:
>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>> Bertel Lund Hansen said:
>>>>> Mack A. Damia skrev:
>>
>>>>>> ORLANDO ? Some 50 wildlife specialists, including a trained
>>>>>> alligator trapper, were combing a lake Wednesday at a Disney
>>>>>> World resort hotel looking for a 2-year-old boy snatched while
>>>>>> wading on a beach by a 7- to 8-foot alligator.
>>
>>>>> Can you unsign me from this newspaper, please? I thought that I
>>>>> had joined a group about language, but being new to this medium
>>>>> as I am, I must have made some mistake, and I don't know how to
>>>>> correct it.
>>
>>Perhaps Mack's point was the ambiguity of "by" in that sentence. Was
>>the child snatched by, or was he wading by, that alligator? Probably both.
>
>I don't know what's in Mack's mind, but I thought the point was that
>Orlando has been the scene of three horrific incidents in the span of
>one week.

Quite.

I am under the impression that OT posts had been discussed before and
found to be acceptable. It is not as if I am the only one posting OT
stuff. I try to choose topics that are interesting.

If Aethel is overwhelmed, let me suggest that he turn off his radio.
Maybe his tortured soul will settle to a point of merely being
whelmed, then.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I'm not the one complaining about your posts. It's the one who tells us
about 15 times a day about Danish usage.

> let me suggest that he turn off his radio.
> Maybe his tortured soul will settle to a point of merely being
> whelmed, then.

--
athel

[Mack A. Damia]

Oh, sorry. Not certain how I confused you, but it was still early in
Baja. DST means Damia Sleeping Time.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 11:02:29 AM UTC-4, Cheryl wrote:
> On 2016-06-16 12:21 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > The boy's body was found very near where it was "snatched." He was not eaten by
> > an alligator, so the murder of four alligators was meaningless. It was taken
> > for autopsy, which will presumably determine whether he died from a bite or
> > subsequently from drowning.

Yes, that (drowning) was the reported finding.

> > As with the little boy at the zoo who caused the murder of a gorilla, this was
> > another case of parental laxity. Who takes their family wading in a lagoon at
> > 9:30 at night?
>
> Can you murder an animal? I think that usage is merely a rhetorical
> device intended to startle the listener or reader.
>
> If the water weren't so bloody cold here, I might go wading at 9:30 PM,
> since it's still not full dark by then.

I didn't think I needed to point out Florida's low latitude ...

> I probably wouldn't go wading at any time of day or night if I were in a
> place with waters infested with dangerous reptiles, but a lot of people
> don't share my nervousness.

The beach was posted for swimming (but not for wading) but the sign didn't
say "Here there bee dragons."

[Mack A. Damia]

On Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:47:19 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

>4. News media in English-speaking countries are neither filled
>with news about the Danish language nor about daily life in
>Denmark. I, on the other hand, can't turn on my tv or radio
>without hearing about the two incidents that Mack A. Damia has
>deemed it relevant to repeat in this newsgroup.

I try to generate interest.

We all try, Bertel. If it doesn't work, we move on.

Pax.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Killfiling Busybody Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>
> Athel Cornish-Bowden skrev:
>
>> Hmm. I'm not sure that occasional posts not about English usage
>> are as irritating as endless posts about Danish usage.
>

Which I've bitched about two years ago -- Bertel's endless O-T
"In Danish we say..." and "In Denmark we do...", about which
few AUEers give a shit.

>
> 1. I have never started a thread with a subject that was not
> about English language.
>

Irrelevant.

>
> 2. I have never complained about a message within a thread based
> on it's not dealing with English language.
>

Irrelevant.

>
> 3. I don't think that my percentage of OT messages is worse than
> that of many other mebers of this group.
>

True, but the daily dose of O-T Danish propaganda gets on one's nerves.

>
> 4. News media in English-speaking countries are neither filled
> with news about the Danish language nor about daily life in
> Denmark. I, on the other hand, can't turn on my tv or radio
> without hearing about the two incidents that Mack A. Damia has
> deemed it relevant to repeat in this newsgroup.
>

Totally irrelevant!

P.S.: Most of Bertel's compulsive "witticisms" suck,
like PeteY's witless "speech act jokes."

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~

[snide...@gmail.com]

I rarely find Bertel irritating, so I guess my thresholds are
set different from yours. However, I thought the above was
an uncharacteristic post from Bertel, and was surprised to see it.

/dps

[snide...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 5:02:18 AM UTC-7, CDB wrote:

> I'm happy to hear about usage, since Danish is a language which has
> had some influence on English. Danish daily life is off-topic, though,
> and should be kept in proportion. IMO.

What, a topic that's wandered off into stop signs and yields
should not have any non-English data introduced?

/dps

[Dr. HotSalt]

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 8:10:55 AM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:02:15 -0400, CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On 16/06/2016 6:43 AM, musika wrote:
> >> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >>> Bertel Lund Hansen said:
> >>>> Mack A. Damia skrev:
> >
> >>>>> ORLANDO ? Some 50 wildlife specialists, including a trained
> >>>>> alligator trapper, were combing a lake Wednesday at a Disney
> >>>>> World resort hotel looking for a 2-year-old boy snatched while
> >>>>> wading on a beach by a 7- to 8-foot alligator.
> >
> >>>> Can you unsign me from this newspaper, please? I thought that I
> >>>> had joined a group about language, but being new to this medium
> >>>> as I am, I must have made some mistake, and I don't know how to
> >>>> correct it.
> >
> >Perhaps Mack's point was the ambiguity of "by" in that sentence. Was
> >the child snatched by, or was he wading by, that alligator? Probably both.
>
> I don't know what's in Mack's mind, but I thought the point was that
> Orlando has been the scene of three horrific incidents in the span of
> one week.
>
> There are indications that members of the Westboro Baptist Church are
> enroute to Orlando to disrupt the funeral and memorial services of the
> deceased, so we may be in for a fourth horrific incident.

I just checked their nefandous webpage- they don't have anything scheduled. Yet.

> While I am a strong supporter of gun control, I would not have an
> objection to arming the family members attending these services with
> AR-15s should the Westboro group show up.

Fair's fair.


Dr. HotSalt

[Cheryl]

I like hearing about how things are different in other parts of the world.


--
Cheryl

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Ross]

So do I. I don't object to Bertel at all.

[Ross]

Circumstances in Florida were not unlike those of the most recent
Queensland crocodile incident, a couple of weeks ago: people wading
after dark. In that case the victim was an adult female (a NZ woman,
so we heard a lot about it here). Her obvious fate was only confirmed
when they found human remains inside a big croc. I notice that one
was "euthanised" rather than "murdered".

http://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/croc-that-killed-cindy-waldron-euthanised-in-far-north-queensland/news-story/57972c3267ab16c90464a3c582620b0c

[Dr. HotSalt]

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 4:40:58 PM UTC-7, Cheryl P wrote:
> On 2016-06-16 5:55 PM, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 5:02:18 AM UTC-7, CDB wrote:
> >
> >> I'm happy to hear about usage, since Danish is a language which has
> >> had some influence on English. Danish daily life is off-topic, though,
> >> and should be kept in proportion. IMO.
> >
> > What, a topic that's wandered off into stop signs and yields
> > should not have any non-English data introduced?
>
> I like hearing about how things are different in other parts of the world.

Same here. One of the extremely good things about the internet is the chance to get what intelligence types call "ground truth" from other parts of the planet, bypassing Officially- and media-massaged opinion-generating propaganda.


Dr. HotSalt

[Dr. HotSalt]

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 7:47:19 AM UTC-7, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:

> A question:
> Are reports about daily life in some region more relevant if the
> first language of this region is English?

Not to me.


Dr. HotSalt

[CDB]

On 16/06/2016 4:25 PM, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> CDB wrote:

>> I'm happy to hear about usage, since Danish is a language which has
>> had some influence on English. Danish daily life is off-topic,
>> though, and should be kept in proportion. IMO.

> What, a topic that's wandered off into stop signs and yields should
> not have any non-English data introduced?

Meden agan, that's all: "kept in proportion".

I commented on the complaint first raised by Bertel, but I'm not
inconvenienced by such postings and have no reason to complain about
them. I simply skim my way to the bottom and keep going.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:32:24 -0230, Cheryl <cper...@med.mun.ca>
wrote:

The ex and I visited Jamaica in 1973, and we took a bus trip to Ocho
Rios for a day and stopped at Ross Kanaga's crocodile farm near
Falmouth, Trelawny. He was the guy who doubled for Roger Moore in
"Live and Let Die" - the famous scene where Bond runs across the
crocodiles' backs.

We were escorted through a large solid gate, and we were in a
fenced-enclosure with swamp all around us. Here is a photo. We
walked down about half-way.

http://thetropicaltourist.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DSCF0743.jpg

There were dozens of crocs to the left and right of us. Ross had a
.357 magnum strapped to his side, and he told us to do everything he
said and not to make sudden movements. One croc seemed to get a
little frisky, so there was a cautious moment or two.

My ex was quite beside herself.

[Tony Cooper]

I can visit a similar venue at considerably less expense. Gatorland
has been an Orlando attraction since 1949.

The idea, at my age, of paying money to be attached to a wire many
feet above the ground and to slide along that wire for a long distance
has no appeal to me. It has even less appeal when the ground below is
full of alligators.

They do require helmets. That's reassuring. If I fall off and into a
pool of alligators, it's good to know that I won't come out with a
scalp injury. Of course, my scalp might be the only part of me left
not yet digested.

http://www.gatorland.com/

[Mack A. Damia]

I didn't realize it, but Ross Kananga died of cardiac arrest while
spear fishing in the Everglades in 1978, only five years after we
visited the farm. He was only 32 years old. Born in Florida where he
lived for most of his life.

He also did work on "Papillion" also shot on location at the farm in
1973.

Sign at the farm: "Trespassers Will Be Eaten!"

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Jun-17 01:02, Cheryl wrote:
> On 2016-06-16 12:21 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> The boy's body was found very near where it was "snatched." He was not
>> eaten by
>> an alligator, so the murder of four alligators was meaningless. It was
>> taken
>> for autopsy, which will presumably determine whether he died from a
>> bite or
>> subsequently from drowning.
>>
>> As with the little boy at the zoo who caused the murder of a gorilla,
>> this was
>> another case of parental laxity. Who takes their family wading in a
>> lagoon at
>> 9:30 at night?
>>
>
> Can you murder an animal? I think that usage is merely a rhetorical
> device intended to startle the listener or reader.
>
> If the water weren't so bloody cold here, I might go wading at 9:30 PM,
> since it's still not full dark by then.
>
> I probably wouldn't go wading at any time of day or night if I were in a
> place with waters infested with dangerous reptiles, but a lot of people
> don't share my nervousness.
>

The victim's family wasn't from Florida, I gather, so had no way of
knowing that it was unsafe to wade in the shallows.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Tony Cooper]

They are from Nebraska; a state where the alligators don't roam. I
don't fault the parents at all. The villas at the Grand Floridian are
almost at water's edge. That's one of the attractions of the place.
Anyone who has been a parent of a two year-old knows they can scoot
off in the blink of an eye no matter how diligent the watchers are.
Nor do I blame the parents of the boy in the gorilla's cage for the
same reason.

If Disney hasn't started the project already, I expect fences to be
erected near the shoreline. Signs, no matter how explicit, don't
work. The next thing I expect is for people to object to the fences
because they impair the view.

[Ross]

Sure, but just for that reason (as has been said in connection with
the recent Queensland case) you would hope that people catering to
tourists would give them suitable warning. Perhaps they did, and
these people just chose to ignore it.

[Snidely]

Tony Cooper asserted that:
> On Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:51:58 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>
>> On 2016-06-16 08:18:09 +0000, Bertel Lund Hansen said:
>>
>>> Mack A. Damia skrev:
>>>
>>>> ORLANDO ? Some 50 wildlife specialists, including a trained alligator
>>>> trapper, were combing a lake Wednesday at a Disney World resort hotel
>>>> looking for a 2-year-old boy snatched while wading on a beach by a 7-
>>>> to 8-foot alligator.
>>>
>>> Can you unsign me from this newspaper, please? I thought that I
>>> had joined a group about language, but being new to this medium
>>> as I am, I must have made some mistake, and I don't know how to
>>> correct it.
>>

>> Hmm. I'm not sure that occasional posts not about English usage are as
>> irritating as endless posts about Danish usage.
>

> Yes. If the child had been riding a bicycle at water's edge, Bertel
> would have responded on the subject of Danish bicycle road rules not
> allowing this.

I would not expect that until /after/ the subject of Florida and New
Jersey (and maybe Old Jersey) bicycle road rules had been brought up.

/dps

--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

snide...@gmail.com skrev:

> I rarely find Bertel irritating, so I guess my thresholds are
> set different from yours. However, I thought the above was
> an uncharacteristic post from Bertel, and was surprised to see it.

I reacted because I can't imagine anyone not knowing about the
incidents, because it was the start of a thread, because it was
the second time that Mack A. Damia began aa thread by repeating
some news , and because, as I explained, I already am having more
than my fair share of news about it.

If a thread had drifted, and the same message had been one of the
follow-ups, I wouldn't have thought twice about it.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Mack A. Damia]

On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:11:02 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

>snide...@gmail.com skrev:
>
>> I rarely find Bertel irritating, so I guess my thresholds are
>> set different from yours. However, I thought the above was
>> an uncharacteristic post from Bertel, and was surprised to see it.
>
>I reacted because I can't imagine anyone not knowing about the
>incidents, because it was the start of a thread, because it was
>the second time that Mack A. Damia began aa thread by repeating
>some news , and because, as I explained, I already am having more
>than my fair share of news about it.

Did you notice that Tony didn't know about the shooting until he read
my post?

[CDB]

On 16/06/2016 8:01 PM, Ross wrote:

> Cheryl wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>>> The boy's body was found very near where it was "snatched." He
>>> was not eaten by an alligator, so the murder of four alligators
>>> was meaningless. It was taken for autopsy, which will presumably
>>> determine whether he died from a bite or subsequently from
>>> drowning.

>>> As with the little boy at the zoo who caused the murder of a
>>> gorilla, this was another case of parental laxity. Who takes
>>> their family wading in a lagoon at 9:30 at night?

>> Can you murder an animal? I think that usage is merely a
>> rhetorical device intended to startle the listener or reader.

>> If the water weren't so bloody cold here, I might go wading at 9:30
>> PM, since it's still not full dark by then.

>> I probably wouldn't go wading at any time of day or night if I were
>> in a place with waters infested with dangerous reptiles, but a lot
>> of people don't share my nervousness.

> Circumstances in Florida were not unlike those of the most recent
> Queensland crocodile incident, a couple of weeks ago: people wading
> after dark. In that case the victim was an adult female (a NZ woman,
> so we heard a lot about it here). Her obvious fate was only
> confirmed when they found human remains inside a big croc. I notice
> that one was "euthanised" rather than "murdered".

> http://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/croc-that-killed-cindy-waldron-euthanised-in-far-north-queensland/news-story/57972c3267ab16c90464a3c582620b0c

Don't know what they did to the gator, but "murder" is used above to
describe the precautionary killing of a gorilla. Not so far off, I think.

[CDB]

On 16/06/2016 8:03 PM, Dr. HotSalt wrote:
> Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:

>> A question: Are reports about daily life in some region more
>> relevant if the first language of this region is English?

> Not to me.

As I said, the probability of relevance *to this group's purpose* may be
greater; anglophone customs generate English terminology. Apart from
that, cable-car schedules in San Francisco are not more "relevant" than
the street-sweeping practices of suburban Scandinavia.

English usage. Food. Sheep. Other topics come up often, but they are
not relevant to the group's stated purposes, and should not become its
principal occupation.

To any who didn't catch the distinction last time: that means discussion
of those topics should be kept in some reasonable proportion to the
topical material, not that it should be banned.

Some people have now weighed in to say that they like hearing about
living-conditions abroad; I think they're missing the point.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Also, as I understand it, the lagoon is a man-made part of the resort.
It's not just that the villas were built next to the lagoon, the lagoon
was built next to the villas.

>Anyone who has been a parent of a two year-old knows they can scoot
>off in the blink of an eye no matter how diligent the watchers are.
>Nor do I blame the parents of the boy in the gorilla's cage for the
>same reason.
>
>If Disney hasn't started the project already, I expect fences to be
>erected near the shoreline. Signs, no matter how explicit, don't
>work. The next thing I expect is for people to object to the fences
>because they impair the view.

Then someone climbs over the fence, attracts the attention of an
alligator, but bystanders are prevented from quickly going to the aid of
the person because the fence is in the way.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 11:51:09 PM UTC-4, Ross wrote:
> On Friday, June 17, 2016 at 2:19:08 PM UTC+12, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 2016-Jun-17 01:02, Cheryl wrote:
> > > On 2016-06-16 12:21 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > >> The boy's body was found very near where it was "snatched." He was not
> > >> eaten by
> > >> an alligator, so the murder of four alligators was meaningless. It was
> > >> taken
> > >> for autopsy, which will presumably determine whether he died from a
> > >> bite or
> > >> subsequently from drowning.
> > >> As with the little boy at the zoo who caused the murder of a gorilla,
> > >> this was
> > >> another case of parental laxity. Who takes their family wading in a
> > >> lagoon at
> > >> 9:30 at night?

This question has not been addressed (save by a far-northerner who
noted that Up There it wasn't dark yet).

> > > Can you murder an animal? I think that usage is merely a rhetorical
> > > device intended to startle the listener or reader.
> > > If the water weren't so bloody cold here, I might go wading at 9:30 PM,
> > > since it's still not full dark by then.
> > > I probably wouldn't go wading at any time of day or night if I were in a
> > > place with waters infested with dangerous reptiles, but a lot of people
> > > don't share my nervousness.
> > The victim's family wasn't from Florida, I gather, so had no way of
> > knowing that it was unsafe to wade in the shallows.
>
> Sure, but just for that reason (as has been said in connection with
> the recent Queensland case) you would hope that people catering to
> tourists would give them suitable warning. Perhaps they did, and
> these people just chose to ignore it.

The news this morning said Disney will post alligator warnings.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Four alligators (later I heard five) were randomly selected and sliced open to
see whether they contained human remains.

> but "murder" is used above to
> describe the precautionary killing of a gorilla. Not so far off, I think.

Especially in view of an earlier incident when a gorilla picked up a human
child that had fallen into the enclosure and handed it to one of the attendants.
(I think they said that one was actually in Florida.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, June 17, 2016 at 7:39:24 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:

> As I said, the probability of relevance *to this group's purpose* may be
> greater; anglophone customs generate English terminology. Apart from
> that, cable-car schedules in San Francisco are not more "relevant" than
> the street-sweeping practices of suburban Scandinavia.
>
> English usage. Food. Sheep. Other topics come up often, but they are
> not relevant to the group's stated purposes, and should not become its
> principal occupation.

It is constantly claimed that "sheep" is a relevant topic, but the only times
sheep are specifically mentioned are in such lists of the three relevant topics.

I wonder whether it might reflect a predilection of some long-gone RR whose
interests were not passed on to other contributors.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, June 17, 2016 at 8:21:43 AM UTC-4, PeterWD wrote:

> Also, as I understand it, the lagoon is a man-made part of the resort.
> It's not just that the villas were built next to the lagoon, the lagoon
> was built next to the villas.

Or the villas and lagoon were planned and built together.

[LFS]

For many summers, sheep were a central topic of conversation. Some of
the cleverest may still have their herds: I have a little Herdwick, of
whom I'm very fond.

--
Laura (emulate St George for email)

[Katy Jennison]

+1.

--
Katy Jennison

[Cheryl]

If it were my child, I would have sued them had they assumed that a wild
animal that behaved as that gorilla did in the video would return my
child unharmed because another gorilla happened to do that elsewhere.

That is, I'd sue if I didn't find and use one of those weapons that are
apparently so easily available.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:09:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 11:51:09 PM UTC-4, Ross wrote:
>> On Friday, June 17, 2016 at 2:19:08 PM UTC+12, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> > On 2016-Jun-17 01:02, Cheryl wrote:
>> > > On 2016-06-16 12:21 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> > >> The boy's body was found very near where it was "snatched." He was not
>> > >> eaten by
>> > >> an alligator, so the murder of four alligators was meaningless. It was
>> > >> taken
>> > >> for autopsy, which will presumably determine whether he died from a
>> > >> bite or
>> > >> subsequently from drowning.
>> > >> As with the little boy at the zoo who caused the murder of a gorilla,
>> > >> this was
>> > >> another case of parental laxity. Who takes their family wading in a
>> > >> lagoon at
>> > >> 9:30 at night?
>
>This question has not been addressed (save by a far-northerner who
>noted that Up There it wasn't dark yet).
>

Whether or not it was dark is rather irrelevant. (It would have been,
though) A family on vacation isn't expected to be tucked into their
room at 9:30 PM. They're paying a rather hefty price to stay at the
Grand Floridian, and the ability to be outside in the grounds is one
reason they chose the place. At Motel 6, the "grounds" are a parking
lot next to a Waffle House.

The family wouldn't leave a 2 year-old in the room, either.

It's really not all that dark around the Grand Floridian. The
playground is well lit, and there are other lights.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:16:55 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Friday, June 17, 2016 at 7:39:24 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
>
>> As I said, the probability of relevance *to this group's purpose* may be
>> greater; anglophone customs generate English terminology. Apart from
>> that, cable-car schedules in San Francisco are not more "relevant" than
>> the street-sweeping practices of suburban Scandinavia.
>>
>> English usage. Food. Sheep. Other topics come up often, but they are
>> not relevant to the group's stated purposes, and should not become its
>> principal occupation.
>
>It is constantly claimed that "sheep" is a relevant topic, but the only times
>sheep are specifically mentioned are in such lists of the three relevant topics.
>

That may be true in your limited experience here, but not for those of
us who have been around for a few years.

http://www.archive-org-2013.com/org/a/2013-12-06_3274671_7/AUE-The-Totally-Official-Summer-Doldrums-Competition-2004/

[Tony Cooper]

True, that. It's not our practice to have the radio or TV on in the
morning. We live on the opposite side of the Orlando area, and would
not have heard the sirens, helicopters, or other indications of an
incident like this.

[Peter T. Daniels]

"That video" has been widely misinterpreted. The gorilla was trying to protect
the child from the screaming mob that suddenly erupted.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

PeteY Daniels wrote:
>
> Especially in view of an earlier incident when a gorilla picked up a
> human child that had fallen into the enclosure and handed it to one
> of the attendants.
> (I think they said that one was actually in Florida.)
>

No, at the Brookfield Zoo, in Brookfield, Illinois (near Chicago), where
in 1996 "Binti Jua," a female gorilla tended to a three-year-old boy who
had fallen into her enclosure.

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:18:31 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:19:56 -0400, Tony Cooper
><tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:19:04 +1000, Peter Moylan
>><pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>
>>They are from Nebraska; a state where the alligators don't roam. I
>>don't fault the parents at all. The villas at the Grand Floridian are
>>almost at water's edge. That's one of the attractions of the place.
>
>Also, as I understand it, the lagoon is a man-made part of the resort.
>It's not just that the villas were built next to the lagoon, the lagoon
>was built next to the villas.

No, it wasn't. The lagoon was carved out in the early 1970s. It's
used for boating, fishing, and other purposes. At one time there were
artificial waves generated by a machine so surfing was possible. The
Grand Floridian resort was opened in July, 1988.

The "lagoon" was constructed as a feature of the park and a visual and
physical separation from what was then the parking area.

It's quite possible that the Disney people planned to add a resort to
that side of what they call "The Seven Seas Lagoon" at a future time,
but the lagoon came first.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Cheryl wrote:
>
> snide...@gmail.com wrote:
>> CDB wrote:
>>
>>> I'm happy to hear about usage, since Danish is a language which
>>> has had some influence on English. Danish daily life is
>>> off-topic, though, and should be kept in proportion. IMO.
>>
>> What, a topic that's wandered off into stop signs and yields
>> should not have any non-English data introduced?
>
> I like hearing about how things are different in other parts
> of the world.
>
For Cheryl, Snidely and other Bertel-fans who are starving for news from
Denmark almost daily supplied by that relentless Denmark propagandist,
here are some "fascinating" -- actually incredibly disgusting and
sickening -- news from Denmark suppressed by Busybody Bertel. Details
are easily Googled.

1) At Denmark's Odense Zoo, the healthy young giraffe "Marius" was
euthanized, then *dismembered in front of a zoo audience* that included
children, and fed to the zoo's lions.

2) This same Danish zoo killed a healthy young lion and also
*dissected it in public*. Some 300 to 400 children gathered around the
corpse of that nine-month-old lion. The dissection began with a zoo
guide, wearing rubber boots and surgical gloves, cutting out the
animal's tongue. The wide-eyed audience, mostly children and some
adults, covered their noses to avert the pungent smell.

3) For more "fascinating" O-T news about Denmark not posted here by
Busybody Bertel for his fans, read about how the Danes mistreat the
refugees from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:21:34 -0400, Tony Cooper

<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:18:31 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
><ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:19:56 -0400, Tony Cooper
>><tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:19:04 +1000, Peter Moylan
>>><pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>They are from Nebraska; a state where the alligators don't roam. I
>>>don't fault the parents at all. The villas at the Grand Floridian are
>>>almost at water's edge. That's one of the attractions of the place.
>>
>>Also, as I understand it, the lagoon is a man-made part of the resort.
>>It's not just that the villas were built next to the lagoon, the lagoon
>>was built next to the villas.
>
>No, it wasn't. The lagoon was carved out in the early 1970s. It's
>used for boating, fishing, and other purposes. At one time there were
>artificial waves generated by a machine so surfing was possible. The
>Grand Floridian resort was opened in July, 1988.
>
>The "lagoon" was constructed as a feature of the park and a visual and
>physical separation from what was then the parking area.
>
>It's quite possible that the Disney people planned to add a resort to
>that side of what they call "The Seven Seas Lagoon" at a future time,
>but the lagoon came first.

Thanks for the correction.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, June 17, 2016 at 12:17:31 PM UTC-4, Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:

Thank you.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Thank you for restating and confirming my point.

Which was further elucidated in the sentence you deleted in order to make it look as though
you were being helpful or informative.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Tony Cooper:

> On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 02:42:15 -0700, Mack A. Damia
> <mybaco...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:11:02 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
>><gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>
>>>snide...@gmail.com skrev:
>>>
>>>> I rarely find Bertel irritating, so I guess my thresholds are
>>>> set different from yours. However, I thought the above was
>>>> an uncharacteristic post from Bertel, and was surprised to see it.
>>>
>>>I reacted because I can't imagine anyone not knowing about the
>>>incidents, because it was the start of a thread, because it was
>>>the second time that Mack A. Damia began aa thread by repeating
>>>some news , and because, as I explained, I already am having more
>>>than my fair share of news about it.
>>
>>Did you notice that Tony didn't know about the shooting until he read
>>my post?
>
> True, that. It's not our practice to have the radio or TV on in the
> morning.

Similar here. I'm glad I went to the scheduled barbecue around
noon not yet knowing about it; surprisingly, nobody mentioned it
there, so I only heard about it in the evening.

But a brutal attack on freedom is very different from the
accidental killing of one child, which is bound to happen every
day, somewhere.

Apparently, a toddler was crushed by a tombstone recently in
Copenhagen.

--
Failover worked - the system failed, then it was over.
(freely translated from a remark by Dietz Proepper
in de.alt.sysadmin.recovery)

[snide...@gmail.com]

Except it wasn't some long-gone RR, unless Jerry is among that class;
IIRC he was an ajudicator in recent episodes.
I thought the TOSD quests ran for another couple of years after 2012.
I never earned a sheep, because I couldn't answer many of the questions,
but I certainly loved reading the proposed solutions,
and found out about a lot of varietals ovine.
No longer am I limited to fine Merino.

/dps

[Dingbat]

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 8:32:29 PM UTC+5:30, Cheryl wrote:

> On 2016-06-16 12:21 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > The boy's body was found very near where it was "snatched." He was not eaten
> > by an alligator, so the murder of four alligators was meaningless. It was
> > taken for autopsy, which will presumably determine whether he died from a
> > bite or subsequently from drowning.
> >
> > As with the little boy at the zoo who caused the murder of a gorilla, this
> > was another case of parental laxity. Who takes their family wading in a
> > lagoon at 9:30 at night?
>
> Can you murder an animal?
>

Yes, if it were my dog. By law, though, only a murder of crows would pass muster and that wouldn't be a killing.

[Robert Bannister]

On 17/06/2016 10:19 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 2016-Jun-17 01:02, Cheryl wrote:
>> On 2016-06-16 12:21 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>> The boy's body was found very near where it was "snatched." He was not
>>> eaten by
>>> an alligator, so the murder of four alligators was meaningless. It was
>>> taken
>>> for autopsy, which will presumably determine whether he died from a
>>> bite or
>>> subsequently from drowning.
>>>
>>> As with the little boy at the zoo who caused the murder of a gorilla,
>>> this was
>>> another case of parental laxity. Who takes their family wading in a
>>> lagoon at
>>> 9:30 at night?
>>>
>>

>> Can you murder an animal? I think that usage is merely a rhetorical

>> device intended to startle the listener or reader.
>>
>> If the water weren't so bloody cold here, I might go wading at 9:30 PM,
>> since it's still not full dark by then.
>>

>> I probably wouldn't go wading at any time of day or night if I were in a

>> place with waters infested with dangerous reptiles, but a lot of people
>> don't share my nervousness.
>>
> The victim's family wasn't from Florida, I gather, so had no way of
> knowing that it was unsafe to wade in the shallows.
>

A friend of mine had just got back from up north and was telling us last
night how she had seen a huge crocodile beside the May River (near
Derby, Western Australia). As she was coming back to her vehicle, she
had overheard a family discussing taking their two toddlers swimming in
the river. They were apparently quite surprised when she told them it
wasn't really a good idea.

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Robert Bannister]

On 17/06/2016 7:52 AM, Ross wrote:
> On Friday, June 17, 2016 at 11:40:58 AM UTC+12, Cheryl P wrote:
>> On 2016-06-16 5:55 PM, snide...@gmail.com wrote:

>>> On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 5:02:18 AM UTC-7, CDB wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm happy to hear about usage, since Danish is a language which has
>>>> had some influence on English. Danish daily life is off-topic, though,
>>>> and should be kept in proportion. IMO.
>>>
>>> What, a topic that's wandered off into stop signs and yields
>>> should not have any non-English data introduced?
>>
>> I like hearing about how things are different in other parts of the world.
>>
>>

>> --
>> Cheryl
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>

> So do I. I don't object to Bertel at all.
>

Likewise. I find what happens in other countries interesting, and it
gives the xenophobes more opportunities to mutter "Stupid Danes, Brits,
Aussies, Canadians, Americans...".

[Robert Bannister]

On 18/06/2016 1:54 AM, Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:

> For Cheryl, Snidely and other Bertel-fans who are starving for news from
> Denmark almost daily supplied by that relentless Denmark propagandist,
> here are some "fascinating" -- actually incredibly disgusting and
> sickening -- news from Denmark suppressed by Busybody Bertel. Details
> are easily Googled.

[snip]

> 3) For more "fascinating" O-T news about Denmark not posted here by
> Busybody Bertel for his fans, read about how the Danes mistreat the
> refugees from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.
>

I bet they're not as good as it as we are.

[Robert Bannister]

It's the "reasonable proportion" part that is hard to control.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Four years ago isn't exactly recent. I was thoroughly mystified by TOSD. I
think I observed only one.

Is the "S" there for 'sheep'?

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 20:16:17 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

The "S" is explained in the link. All TOSD posts had TOSD in brackets
so those who did not want to participate could easily skip them.

My pen is empty. By the time I ever figured out the proper answer,
the sheep was already winging its way to someone else.

Few things have made me feel more intellectually inferior here than
the TOSDs.

[Lewis]

In message <nk0nh8$1pgg$1...@gioia.aioe.org>

CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 16/06/2016 8:03 PM, Dr. HotSalt wrote:
>> Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:

>>> A question: Are reports about daily life in some region more
>>> relevant if the first language of this region is English?

>> Not to me.

> As I said, the probability of relevance *to this group's purpose* may be
> greater; anglophone customs generate English terminology. Apart from
> that, cable-car schedules in San Francisco are not more "relevant" than
> the street-sweeping practices of suburban Scandinavia.

Not more relevant, and much less interesting.

> Some people have now weighed in to say that they like hearing about
> living-conditions abroad; I think they're missing the point.

Living conditions and customs inform usage, however.

To an American, a boot sale is when a store discounts boots.

Finding our that a boot sale in England is a somewhat common practice of
selling things our of the trunk of a car is interesting. Especially
since buying things from the trunk of a car over here is normally
associated with something illegal or at least seedy.

--
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.

[Dr. HotSalt]

On Friday, June 17, 2016 at 4:39:24 AM UTC-7, CDB wrote:
> On 16/06/2016 8:03 PM, Dr. HotSalt wrote:
> > Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>
> >> A question: Are reports about daily life in some region more
> >> relevant if the first language of this region is English?
>
> > Not to me.
>
> As I said, the probability of relevance *to this group's purpose* may be
> greater; anglophone customs generate English terminology. Apart from
> that, cable-car schedules in San Francisco are not more "relevant" than
> the street-sweeping practices of suburban Scandinavia.

How a Scandinavian *describes* it in English is.

> English usage. Food. Sheep. Other topics come up often, but they are
> not relevant to the group's stated purposes, and should not become its
> principal occupation.

Yeah, threads never drift.

BTW is that a worldwide English phrase? What's its country of origin?

> To any who didn't catch the distinction last time: that means discussion
> of those topics should be kept in some reasonable proportion to the
> topical material, not that it should be banned.
>

> Some people have now weighed in to say that they like hearing about
> living-conditions abroad; I think they're missing the point.

How they're described in English is always on-topic.


Dr. HotSalt

[Richard Tobin]

In article <3628a0e5-5820-4a35...@googlegroups.com>,

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>Which was further elucidated in the sentence you deleted in order to
>make it look as though you were being helpful or informative.

Remember this comment whenever you consider being helpful or
informative to PTD.

-- Richard

[musika]

TO(ally) =SDC=

> so those who did not want to participate could easily skip them.
>
> My pen is empty. By the time I ever figured out the proper answer,
> the sheep was already winging its way to someone else.
>
> Few things have made me feel more intellectually inferior here than
> the TOSDs.
>


--

Ray
UK

[Cheryl]

Yes, if you might not welcome questions into the origin of the items you
are selling, it's much better to mix with other, more honest, sellers at
one of those flea markets. Selling it out of the trunk of your car is
barely one step up from sidling up to someone at a bar and asking them
if they want cheap cigarettes.

[charles]

In article <dskgtn...@mid.individual.net>,

At most "car boot sales" the vendors have tables on which the items are
dispalayed. It's a great way of getting rid of unwanted items. It's
better than selling them on ebay - no postage involved and no commission to
PayPal. You have to pay for a site, though.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

[Katy Jennison]

For the avoidance of doubt, the uninitiated need to appreciate that the
BrE "car boot sale" isn't simply one car with its boot open. It's rows
and rows of cars in a big field or other large space. A good car boot
sale will take half a day to inspect properly.

In this respect it's different from an American garage sale, which is
usually in just one house's garage. (Yes, I know there are also
subdivisions which agree a communal date for a garage sale.) The sort
of stuff for sale is very similar, though -- that is, practically anything.

--
Katy Jennison

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Robert Bannister skrev:

> It's the "reasonable proportion" part that is hard to control.

Do you seriously think that I am worse in this respect than the
average poster here?

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Oliver Cromm skrev:

> Apparently, a toddler was crushed by a tombstone recently in
> Copenhagen.

Yes, but the police have withheld other information than just
that. I doubt that they'll release the whole story. The public
doesn't need to know, and the unlucky people who caused the
incident, would prefer not to have the details published.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Cheryl]

Oh, yes, and flea markets and garage sales have the same function here.
It's merely the connotation - "car trunk sale", if the term existed
here, would be a little too close to the "fell off a truck" or "bought
it from a guy in a bar", which would imply the goods were originally
stolen.

Although many, perhaps most, of the goods sold at flea markets and
garage sales are quite legitimately being disposed of by the owners,
there are rumours that some of the items sold at flea markets,
particularly the commercial ones where anyone can rent a table set up in
some public space, are stolen. In fact, some people say that if some
small item like a camera is stolen from you, you might find it if you do
the rounds of the local flea markets.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-06-18 10:21:53 +0000, Bertel Lund Hansen said:

> Robert Bannister skrev:
>
>> It's the "reasonable proportion" part that is hard to control.
>
> Do you seriously think that I am worse in this respect than the
> average poster here?

Yes. That's exactly the problem.


--
athel

[CDB]

On 18/06/2016 3:17 AM, Dr. HotSalt wrote:

> CDB wrote:
>> Dr. HotSalt wrote:
>>> Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:

>>>> A question: Are reports about daily life in some region more
>>>> relevant if the first language of this region is English?

>>> Not to me.

>> As I said, the probability of relevance *to this group's purpose*
>> may be greater; anglophone customs generate English terminology.
>> Apart from that, cable-car schedules in San Francisco are not more
>> "relevant" than the street-sweeping practices of suburban
>> Scandinavia.

> How a Scandinavian *describes* it in English is.

Bertel, like many Scandinavians, speaks good English for a non-NESsie*,
but I don't consider his non-language postings a good source of
information about English usage. His postings about Danish usage may
well be relevant to English, though.

*"Non-{Native English Speaker}+{adjectival and diminutive ending}".

>> English usage. Food. Sheep. Other topics come up often, but
>> they are not relevant to the group's stated purposes, and should
>> not become its principal occupation.

> Yeah, threads never drift.

I think you're still not getting "principal occupation".

> BTW is that a worldwide English phrase? What's its country of
> origin?

What phrase? "Thread drift"?

>> To any who didn't catch the distinction last time: that means
>> discussion of those topics should be kept in some reasonable
>> proportion to the topical material, not that it should be banned.

>> Some people have now weighed in to say that they like hearing about
>> living-conditions abroad; I think they're missing the point.

> How they're described in English is always on-topic.

Only in the sense that any English text is. That's a rather broad
criterion.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Not something you'd know anything about.

[Tony Cooper]

Do the things sold from the boot of the car come from falling off the
back of a lorry?

obTranspondial: Does that expression exist in BrE? In the US, "it
fell off the back of a truck" means "it's stolen merchandise".

[musika]

Yes, very much so.

> In the US, "it fell off the back of a truck" means "it's stolen merchandise".
>


--

Ray
UK

[CDB]

On 18/06/2016 6:21 AM, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Robert Bannister skrev:

>> It's the "reasonable proportion" part that is hard to control.

> Do you seriously think that I am worse in this respect than the
> average poster here?

You are certainly no "worse" than some. You are in the hot-seat because
your name was raised in the Original Posting of this sub-thread.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 11:10:41 +0100, Katy Jennison
<ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> wrote:

>>
>> At most "car boot sales" the vendors have tables on which the items are
>> dispalayed. It's a great way of getting rid of unwanted items. It's
>> better than selling them on ebay - no postage involved and no commission to
>> PayPal. You have to pay for a site, though.
>>

I can't imagine too many Americans bothering to display at a flea
market if all he has to sell can be transported in the truck of his
car. Maybe so if the merchandise is something like movie DVDs, but
most flea market sellers bring so much they need a truck or trailer.

Most of the flea market sellers are people who frequent garage sales
during the week, buy things on the cheap, and then sell those things
at a weekend flea market. Very few are selling their own possessions.

[Cheryl]

Well, if they've bought it, it's theirs, right?

The only couple I know who make a kind of hobby out of flea markets have
been buying things for decades, and although many of their finds
probably did come originally from other flea markets and garage sales
could probably run a flea market stall for years on what they've got in
their house.

I think around here the only people who sell out of the back of a truck
(not a car) are farmers, but that may have something to do with our climate.

[Peter T. Daniels]

There are a number of long-established flea markets in Midtown Manhattan. Some
seem to occupy lands that on weekdays are parking lots, others are in temporarily
empty lots where doubtless developers are battling for the right to erect more
luxury towers.

Some are indoor establishments, in old "loft buildings" (that used to serve as
warehouses or "light industry" such as manufacturing clothing).

In both cases, each dealer has their permanent assigned spot, for which they
presumably pay rent and also have some sort of vendor's license from the city.
They specialize: I was once (a few years ago) dragged to two of them, where
there were dealers in second-hand DVDs, used clothing, and photographic prints
and other collectibles, among others. The outdoor ones -- like the "farmers"
at the ubiquitous "farmers markets" -- transport their merchandise in vans
(panel trucks). The indoor ones presumably have storage space on the premises.

Some of the farmers markets are long-established, e.g. in Union Square most
days of the week, Grand Army Plaza (Brooklyn) on some days, where parts of
the paved areas are set aside for them and the crowds they attract.

Others are set up on the avenues, with parking prohibited, on specified days
for specified hours. I've regularly encountered them on Broadway outside
Columbia University and on Tenth Avenue in the West 50s near John Jay College,
and there are plenty of others throughout the city.

[Richard Tobin]

In article <fcdbff03-aad8-4fd4...@googlegroups.com>,

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> >Which was further elucidated in the sentence you deleted in order to
>> >make it look as though you were being helpful or informative.

>> Remember this comment whenever you consider being helpful or
>> informative to PTD.

>Not something you'd know anything about.

See?

-- Richard

[Richard Tobin]

In article <aglambdolji2v5pqa...@4ax.com>,

Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Do the things sold from the boot of the car come from falling off the
>back of a lorry?
>
>obTranspondial: Does that expression exist in BrE? In the US, "it
>fell off the back of a truck" means "it's stolen merchandise".

You know what Chisholm said?
He said "I know how Arthur Daley'll die"
I said "How's that?"
He said "He'll fall off the back of a lorry"

from "Arthur Daley, E's Alright" by The Firm, also known for "Star Trekkin'".

-- Richard

[Janet]

In article <aglambdolji2v5pqa...@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...

Yes to "fell off the back of a lorry" expression.

Some carboot goods may be stolen, but the vast majority of sellers are
just people selling their own junk.

Janet.

[Janet]

In article <molamb9rbp19tpnnk...@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...

Most Brits don't have a truck but do have a family car. A car boot
sale is on a different selling-scale to the kind of open air markets
where dealers sell.

Janet.

[Tony Cooper]

In this area, the person who wants to sell a few things but doesn't
want to bother setting up at a flea market has a yard sale or a garage
sale. Quite often, several neighbors will add things.

I can't think of anywhere I've ever seen individuals selling things
from their car trunks except in neighborhoods where the items in the
trunk have been in someone else's car or house just hours before.

[Dr. HotSalt]

On Saturday, June 18, 2016 at 6:44:12 AM UTC-7, CDB wrote:
> On 18/06/2016 3:17 AM, Dr. HotSalt wrote:
> > CDB wrote:
> >> Dr. HotSalt wrote:
> >>> Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>
> >>>> A question: Are reports about daily life in some region more
> >>>> relevant if the first language of this region is English?
>
> >>> Not to me.
>
> >> As I said, the probability of relevance *to this group's purpose*
> >> may be greater; anglophone customs generate English terminology.
> >> Apart from that, cable-car schedules in San Francisco are not more
> >> "relevant" than the street-sweeping practices of suburban
> >> Scandinavia.
>
> > How a Scandinavian *describes* it in English is.
>
> Bertel, like many Scandinavians, speaks good English for a non-NESsie*,

His (and others') exceptions from "good English" are interesting. To me.

> but I don't consider his non-language postings a good source of
> information about English usage.

Am I the only person here who automatically analyzes everything they read
for style as well as content?

> His postings about Danish usage may well be relevant to English, though.

Sorry, but to me that sentence reads like a contradiction in terms. That is, unless you're thinking of what English and Danish have in common/ how they differ because of/ despite their common roots?

> *"Non-{Native English Speaker}+{adjectival and diminutive ending}".

I liked it.

> >> English usage. Food. Sheep. Other topics come up often, but
> >> they are not relevant to the group's stated purposes, and should
> >> not become its principal occupation.
>
> > Yeah, threads never drift.
>
> I think you're still not getting "principal occupation".

Oh, I'm getting it. But I still analyze for usage as well as content.
When I'm reading in this group I focus on usage and *try* to focus on
mine as well when writing the rare original post or just replying.

> > BTW is that a worldwide English phrase? What's its country of
> > origin?
>
> What phrase? "Thread drift"?

Yes. Is it an AmE invention that spread worldwide? I see posters
from many countries using it but never any alternatives.

> >> To any who didn't catch the distinction last time: that means
> >> discussion of those topics should be kept in some reasonable
> >> proportion to the topical material, not that it should be banned.
>
> >> Some people have now weighed in to say that they like hearing about
> >> living-conditions abroad; I think they're missing the point.
>
> > How they're described in English is always on-topic.
>
> Only in the sense that any English text is. That's a rather broad
> criterion.

Well, the criteria one uses to parse a post in any group should be those relevant to the group, no?

Is this one of those "takes offense where none is offered" things? Am
I just failing to be sufficiently rigid in my permissiveness?


Dr. HotSalt

[Dr. HotSalt]

On Saturday, June 18, 2016 at 9:52:26 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, June 18, 2016 at 10:42:20 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 11:10:41 +0100, Katy Jennison
> > <ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> At most "car boot sales" the vendors have tables on which the
> > >> items are dispalayed. It's a great way of getting rid of unwanted
> > >> items. It's better than selling them on ebay - no postage
> > >> involved and no commission to PayPal. You have to pay for a site,
> > >> though.
> >
> > I can't imagine too many Americans bothering to display at a flea
> > market if all he has to sell can be transported in the truck of his
> > car. Maybe so if the merchandise is something like movie DVDs, but
> > most flea market sellers bring so much they need a truck or trailer.
> >
> > Most of the flea market sellers are people who frequent garage sales
> > during the week, buy things on the cheap, and then sell those things
> > at a weekend flea market. Very few are selling their own possessions.
>
> There are a number of long-established flea markets in Midtown
> Manhattan. Some seem to occupy lands that on weekdays are parking lots,
> others are in temporarily empty lots where doubtless developers are
> battling for the right to erect more luxury towers.

In Phoenix you couldn't just stop at an empty lot, open your trunk, and
sell the contents without getting the landowner's permission. Here in my
little corner of WA State it's not such a big deal.

In neither case are the sale items expected to be stolen unless the
seller is displaying say twenty Playstations still in the original
unopened box.

> Some are indoor establishments, in old "loft buildings" (that used to
> serve as warehouses or "light industry" such as manufacturing clothing).

When I lived in Phoenix there were two Officially Approved mass venues
for that. One was held on weekends at the Dog Racing track parking lot,
where individuals could rent from one to four parking slots to display
their wares out of the trunk of their car or set up on folding tables.

Those folks seemed to generally sell their own stuff. There were also
"commercial" dealers who evidently bought masses of stuff from whoever
(this was before E-bay was a thing) and sold it in large semi-permanent
structures that spanned five to ten slots.

The other was a large enclosed building where one could rent one of a few sizes of empty stall in which one would set up tables or just lay
stuff on the floor. The building was air-conditioned and the cost of that
was folded into the space rental, so a given item almost always cost more
than the same item at the open-air dog track.

> In both cases, each dealer has their permanent assigned spot, for which
> they presumably pay rent and also have some sort of vendor's license
> from the city.

In the Official venues in PHX such licenses were required- they gave
sellers an air of legitimacy but some still occasionally got busted for
selling stolen property.

> They specialize: I was once (a few years ago) dragged to two of them,
> where there were dealers in second-hand DVDs, used clothing, and
> photographic prints and other collectibles, among others. The outdoor
> ones -- like the "farmers" at the ubiquitous "farmers markets" --
> transport their merchandise in vans (panel trucks). The indoor ones
> presumably have storage space on the premises.

There are also specialized sales of this kind. I'm thinking
specifically of electronic gear sold at "Hamfests", gatherings of Amateur
Radio enthusiasts. The meetings themselves are usually limited to holders
of amateur radio licenses (or those interested in obtaining same) but the
sales tables are open to the public.

Per the obligatory topic-of-the-week thread drift, there were also
occasional gun shows/sales at the local VFW hall, but those were closely
regulated by the police.

I once was driving from Phoenix to Black Canyon City and pulled off the
freeway to find a bush that needed watering and discovered a dozen or so
vehicles at a rest area doing a brisk trade in firearms.

I was offered a Mac-10 in 9mm for only $200.00. The seller even showed
me how to pop the top and turn a (illegally hand-filed) part around to
get full auto. Since I only had $200 in cash on me that was earmarked for
something else I declined.

That sort of thing still goes on, I'm told.

> Some of the farmers markets are long-established, e.g. in Union Square
> most days of the week, Grand Army Plaza (Brooklyn) on some days, where
> parts of the paved areas are set aside for them and the crowds they
> attract.
>
> Others are set up on the avenues, with parking prohibited, on specified
> days for specified hours. I've regularly encountered them on Broadway
> outside Columbia University and on Tenth Avenue in the West 50s near
> John Jay College, and there are plenty of others throughout the city.

If I ever retire and decide to go traveling, I intend to attend the
so-called World's Largest Yard Sale along Highway 127:

http://www.127yardsale.com/

Six hundred miles of second-hand junk!


Dr. HotSalt

[Mack A. Damia]

Fairly common in these parts. Home-made stuff, especially copperware
and basketware.

Puppies, too. The seller will hold a little one up to passing traffic.

[Janet]

In article <n46bmbd5ccftqb4ot...@4ax.com>, tonycooper214

@gmail.com says...
>
> On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 19:11:26 +0100, Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <molamb9rbp19tpnnk...@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
> >@gmail.com says...
> >>
> >> On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 11:10:41 +0100, Katy Jennison
> >> <ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> At most "car boot sales" the vendors have tables on which the items are
> >> >> dispalayed. It's a great way of getting rid of unwanted items. It's
> >> >> better than selling them on ebay - no postage involved and no commission to
> >> >> PayPal. You have to pay for a site, though.
> >> >>
> >>
> >> I can't imagine too many Americans bothering to display at a flea
> >> market if all he has to sell can be transported in the truck of his
> >> car. Maybe so if the merchandise is something like movie DVDs, but
> >> most flea market sellers bring so much they need a truck or trailer.
> >>
> >> Most of the flea market sellers are people who frequent garage sales
> >> during the week, buy things on the cheap, and then sell those things
> >> at a weekend flea market. Very few are selling their own possessions.
> >
> > Most Brits don't have a truck but do have a family car. A car boot
> >sale is on a different selling-scale to the kind of open air markets
> >where dealers sell.
>
> In this area, the person who wants to sell a few things but doesn't
> want to bother setting up at a flea market has a yard sale or a garage
> sale.

People here do that too. But a car boot with more sellers attracts
more people; plus there's the fun that you can offload your own junk and
find some more to take home.

Janet

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Jun-18 13:35, Tony Cooper wrote:

> My pen is empty. By the time I ever figured out the proper answer,
> the sheep was already winging its way to someone else.

Winging? I don't think we've ever had flying sheep in this group. Flying
pigs, yes. I suppose the occasional "whoosh" could have been from
passing sheep.

What do you call a dog with wings?

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia