Pronouncing "Don Quixote"
Bob Martin
the US style is "kee-ho-tay", but I have just heard a BBC announcer say
"donkey-shot" (and I have heard this before on BBC R3 so it is not this
particular announcer being stupid). I think the US style is similar to
the original Spanish pronunciation, but in the UK it is thought to sound
pretentious. However, I would sooner sound a bit of a poser than bloody
ridiculous, which is how I would feel using "quick-sote" or "donkey-shot".
How do you experts here handle this one ?
Bob Martin
Tony Cooper
wrote:
I think you are tilting at windmills here.
Donna Richoux
Handle what, exactly? Are you expecting to speak before a British
audience about Cervantes? Are you an American living in the UK and you
think it might come up in conversation? (Try not to laugh at them.)
You pronounce it the way you like, they pronounce it the way they like,
and nobody fishes in the middle.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
dcw
"Quick-sote" is at least consistent with "quixotic" (which I presume we
all agree about). It's been the only pronunciation in British English
for a very long time.
"Donkey-shot" is (more or less) French, and was probably correct on Radio
Three. The composer escapes me at the moment.
David
The Bibliographer
>the US style is "kee-ho-tay", but I have just heard a BBC announcer say
>"donkey-shot"
"Donkey-shot" seems like a bad attempt to pronounce the words as if they
were French!?!?
--
Regards, Frank Young
tip...@wam.umd.edu 703-527-7684
Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891
"Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte"
Ross Howard
I'd say no middle ground -- either "QUICK-sote" or the original (well,
roughly): "ki-HOT-eh".
In English I'd feel a bit stupid attempting to pronounce foreign names
"authentically" -- most Brits say "Madame Bovary" to rhyme with
"ovary" (instead of "boh-va-RGHEE" with an uvular "r"), "Charles
AZ-nuh-vaw" (instead of "sharghl az-nah-VOORGH"), "MERE-oh" (instead
of "mi-ROH"), "SAL-vuh-daw DALL-y" (instead of "sal-va-DORR da-LEE")
and make "Gaudí" rhyme with "rowdy" (instead of "gow-DEE"), and,
getting back on track, " suh-VAN-tees" (instead of "thair-VAN-tess"),
so why not "don QUICK-sote"?
--
Ross Howard
--
Yes, but they do so much wonderful work for charity, don't they?
Alec McKenzie
Here in the UK "kee-ho-tay" would certainly sound pretentious. In the
same way that Paris is normally pronounced as written (rather than
"pa-ree"), so would Quixote be "quick-sote".
--
Alec McKenzie
mcke...@despammed.com
Jonathan Jordan
news:2...@myrtle.ukc.ac.uk...
> In article <sJ7sb.87$0M2...@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net>,
> Bob Martin <bob.m...@excite.com> wrote:
> >According to Google the British pronunciation is "quick-sote"
whereas
> >the US style is "kee-ho-tay", but I have just heard a BBC announcer
say
> >"donkey-shot" (and I have heard this before on BBC R3 so it is not
this
> >particular announcer being stupid). I think the US style is
similar to
> >the original Spanish pronunciation, but in the UK it is thought to
sound
> >pretentious. However, I would sooner sound a bit of a poser than
bloody
> >ridiculous, which is how I would feel using "quick-sote" or
"donkey-shot".
>
> "Quick-sote" is at least consistent with "quixotic" (which I presume
we
> all agree about). It's been the only pronunciation in British
English
> for a very long time.
I'm British, and to me /'kwIksot/ seems like a ridiculous spelling
pronunciation. I would use the allegedly US pronunciation /ki'hote/.
Jonathan
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> "Donkey-shot" is (more or less) French, and was probably correct on Radio
> Three. The composer escapes me at the moment.
You're probably thinking of Massenet.
Ludwig Minkus (Russian despite his name) composed what is probably
the best known Don Quixote ballet, and the name might show up on
some recordings in the French spelling (Don Quichotte).
Interesting that the French changed the spelling but we didn't.
--
Bob Lieblich
And then there's "Don Q."
Ross Howard
<Robert....@Verizon.net> wrought:
It's even been "Quijote" in Spanish for a very long time (centuries?).
Ross Howard
<jonatha...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrought:
That's actually the Western Andalusian/Canary Islands/Latin American
pronunciation, rather than the US one, which is usually something
like [kI'hoUteI], I think.
*¡Ojalá los norteamericanos pronunciaran las vocales así de puras!*
Jonathan Jordan
news:v622rv4upkcecicg3...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:01:53 +0000, Bob Martin
<bob.m...@excite.com>
> wrought:
>
> >According to Google the British pronunciation is "quick-sote"
whereas
> >the US style is "kee-ho-tay", but I have just heard a BBC announcer
say
> >"donkey-shot" (and I have heard this before on BBC R3 so it is not
this
> >particular announcer being stupid). I think the US style is
similar to
> >the original Spanish pronunciation, but in the UK it is thought to
sound
> >pretentious. However, I would sooner sound a bit of a poser than
bloody
> >ridiculous, which is how I would feel using "quick-sote" or
"donkey-shot".
> >
> >How do you experts here handle this one ?
>
> I'd say no middle ground -- either "QUICK-sote" or the original
(well,
> roughly): "ki-HOT-eh".
Isn't it spelt with a <j> in modern Spanish? I'm sure I've seen
something like <Don Quijote de la Mancha>.
> In English I'd feel a bit stupid attempting to pronounce foreign
names
> "authentically" -- most Brits say "Madame Bovary" to rhyme with
> "ovary" (instead of "boh-va-RGHEE" with an uvular "r"), "Charles
> AZ-nuh-vaw" (instead of "sharghl az-nah-VOORGH"), "MERE-oh" (instead
> of "mi-ROH"), "SAL-vuh-daw DALL-y" (instead of "sal-va-DORR da-LEE")
> and make "Gaudí" rhyme with "rowdy" (instead of "gow-DEE"), and,
> getting back on track, " suh-VAN-tees" (instead of
"thair-VAN-tess"),
> so why not "don QUICK-sote"?
It depends a lot on the foreign names, though. And it also varies
from speaker to speaker - as I said, I'd use something influenced by
Spanish for "Quixote", but it's clear that a lot of British people
don't. (I'm sure a lot do, though - I'm sure I didn't pick that up in
either America or Spain.)
I think it will often be thought pretentious to use sounds (or
combinations of sounds) which don't occur in your natural speech,
which would explain the tendency to avoid the French uvular R.
Several of your examples end with a stressed vowel in their original
languages. My English at least seems to have a tendency to avoid
stressed vowels ending words, so I don't find it surprising that
Gaud{\'i} and Dal{\'i} (who I think usually gets a "father" vowel, for
no very good reason) get first syllable stress in English.
Also, I think a lot of people aren't familiar with non-English
spelling conventions, at least beyond French and maybe German. You
can quite often hear a <j> that really is [dZ] (or [x], as in Spanish)
turned into [Z] or [j] because people think that that's how other
languages pronounce <j>. How many people know that "Cervantes" is
pronounced like "thair-VAN-tess"? (Of course, in some dialects of
Spanish it isn't.)
Jonathan
MC
Ross Howard <ggu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Charles AZ-nuh-vaw" (instead of "sharghl az-nah-VOORGH"),
For me he will always be Charles Aznovoice.
Alan Jones
"Jonathan Jordan" <jonatha...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:bor2g8$1hqso0$1...@ID-162222.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> I'm British, and to me /'kwIksot/ seems like a ridiculous spelling
> pronunciation. I would use the allegedly US pronunciation /ki'hote/.
I'm also British, but I say (and taught others to say) "'quicksote" (or
more accurately perhaps "quicks't"). Similarly "Don Juan" is "don jew'n",
not "hwahn": the first stanza of Byron's long poem rhymes "Juan" with "new
one" and "true one". As others have pointed out, the adjective "quixotic" is
probably enough to confirm "quicksot" or something similar. And, to revive a
recent thread, "jaguar" is (everywhere, I think?) in BrE JAG-yoo-'r, whether
referring to cat or car.
Alan Jones
Javi
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:52:15 -0500, Robert Lieblich
> <Robert....@Verizon.net> wrought:
>
>> dcw wrote:
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>>> "Donkey-shot" is (more or less) French, and was probably correct on
>>> Radio Three. The composer escapes me at the moment.
>>
>> You're probably thinking of Massenet.
>>
>> Ludwig Minkus (Russian despite his name) composed what is probably
>> the best known Don Quixote ballet, and the name might show up on
>> some recordings in the French spelling (Don Quichotte).
>>
>> Interesting that the French changed the spelling but we didn't.
>
> It's even been "Quijote" in Spanish for a very long time (centuries?).
Since the 18th century.
--
Saludos cordiales
Javi
Mood conjugation:
I've been to hell and back
You've taken a wrong turn
He is a loser
(Craig Brown)
Adrian Bailey
news:mckenzie-FBE2CE...@news.aaisp.net.uk...
> In article <sJ7sb.87$0M2...@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net>,
> Bob Martin <bob.m...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> > According to Google the British pronunciation is "quick-sote" whereas
> > the US style is "kee-ho-tay", but I have just heard a BBC announcer say
> > "donkey-shot" (and I have heard this before on BBC R3 so it is not this
> > particular announcer being stupid).
As has been pointed out elsewhere, this is because the announcer is talking
about the French name of a musical piece.
> > I think the US style is similar to
> > the original Spanish pronunciation, but in the UK it is thought to sound
> > pretentious. However, I would sooner sound a bit of a poser than bloody
> > ridiculous, which is how I would feel using "quick-sote" or
"donkey-shot".
>
> Here in the UK "kee-ho-tay" would certainly sound pretentious. In the
> same way that Paris is normally pronounced as written (rather than
> "pa-ree"), so would Quixote be "quick-sote".
I think both pronunciations are normal in the UK now and I'm not really sure
which one I use more often. Perhaps the funner faux-Spanish one. Although I
generally prefer to use a British pronunciation of a foreign word when there
is one, I am also reacting against the current spelling-pronunciation trend.
Adrian
Skitt
> Ross Howard escribió :
>> Robert Lieblich wrought:
>>> dcw wrote:
>>>> "Donkey-shot" is (more or less) French, and was probably correct on
>>>> Radio Three. The composer escapes me at the moment.
>>>
>>> You're probably thinking of Massenet.
>>>
>>> Ludwig Minkus (Russian despite his name) composed what is probably
>>> the best known Don Quixote ballet, and the name might show up on
>>> some recordings in the French spelling (Don Quichotte).
>>>
>>> Interesting that the French changed the spelling but we didn't.
>>
>> It's even been "Quijote" in Spanish for a very long time
>> (centuries?).
>
> Since the 18th century.
Latvians change the spelling so that the pronunciation reflects the original
when read by a Latvian. They converte the last letter to a Latvian word
ending, though, so it comes out "Don Kihots".
In general, Latvians try to honor the original pronunciations, adjusting the
spellings to match what would be written if the name, as said, were a
Latvian one. They do take liberties with the endings, though, inflecting
them as necessary.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
Skitt
> In English I'd feel a bit stupid attempting to pronounce foreign names
> "authentically" -- most Brits say "Madame Bovary" to rhyme with
> "ovary" (instead of "boh-va-RGHEE" with an uvular "r"), "Charles
> AZ-nuh-vaw" (instead of "sharghl az-nah-VOORGH"), "MERE-oh" (instead
> of "mi-ROH"), "SAL-vuh-daw DALL-y" (instead of "sal-va-DORR da-LEE")
> and make "Gaudí" rhyme with "rowdy" (instead of "gow-DEE"), and,
> getting back on track, " suh-VAN-tees" (instead of "thair-VAN-tess"),
> so why not "don QUICK-sote"?
Interesting. But a name is a name, right? Why change it? Is is that if it
is a bit unusual, it should be disrespectfully massacred?
Now I wonder what do you do with the Vietnamese "Nguyen"? I say it
*somewhat* like "win", trying to honor the name by saying as close as I
possibly can to the original and not to appear to be provincial.
Unknown
I've been saying "don key-hotay", "don hwan" and (for the animal, but
not the car) "jagwar" since (at least) school in Yorkshire in the 60s.
Cheers - Ian
Paul Rooney
wrote:
>
>I'm in the UK, I don't think I'm particularly pretentious, but I would
>certainly say kee-ho-tay if referring to the novel.
I'd say Kee Oh Tay.
>
>Similarly, I'd say "don hwan"
I'd say Don One.
--
Paul
My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003):
http://paulrooney.netfirms.com
Please sponsor me for the London Marathon at:
http://www.justgiving.com/london2004
Jerry Friedman
> "Jonathan Jordan" <jonatha...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:bor2g8$1hqso0$1...@ID-162222.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > I'm British, and to me /'kwIksot/ seems like a ridiculous spelling
> > pronunciation. I would use the allegedly US pronunciation /ki'hote/.
>
> I'm also British, but I say (and taught others to say) "'quicksote" (or
> more accurately perhaps "quicks't"). Similarly "Don Juan" is "don jew'n",
> not "hwahn": the first stanza of Byron's long poem rhymes "Juan" with "new
> one" and "true one".
I suppose we have to pronounce it that way, despite the likelihood of
ridicule, but only in regard to Byron's poem, right? I'd say "wahn"
in "He's a real Don Juan" or "It's based on the Spanish story of Don
Juan." (I use the "closest English phoneme" method, and I don't
really have an /hw/.)
> As others have pointed out, the adjective "quixotic" is
> probably enough to confirm "quicksot" or something similar.
I believe I've heard "kee-ho-tic" in the U.S., and I think we can
expect to hear it more.
...
--
Jerry Friedman
Carmen L. Abruzzi
Bibliographer" <tip...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
> In article <sJ7sb.87$0M2...@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net>,
> Bob Martin <bob.m...@excite.com> wrote:
>> According to Google the British pronunciation is "quick-sote" whereas
>> the US style is "kee-ho-tay", but I have just heard a BBC announcer say
>> "donkey-shot"
>> How do you experts here handle this one ?
>
> "Donkey-shot" seems like a bad attempt to pronounce the words as if they
> were French!?!?
>
Apparently that's exactly what it is.
Everybody's talking about the Kee-hoe-tay pronunce being the "original", but
the original would have bee Kee-show-tay. [S] (that is, the sound
represented by English "sh") was the original pronunciation of Spanish <x>.
later it went to [x], that is the <ch> of <Bach>. In Spain, <x> spellings
were often reformed to <j>, but in Mexico, they're kept.
So that's how "sherry" comes from Jerez. Once "Xeres".
Robert Bannister
> Ross Howard wrote:
>
>
>>In English I'd feel a bit stupid attempting to pronounce foreign names
>>"authentically" -- most Brits say "Madame Bovary" to rhyme with
>>"ovary" (instead of "boh-va-RGHEE" with an uvular "r"), "Charles
>>AZ-nuh-vaw" (instead of "sharghl az-nah-VOORGH"), "MERE-oh" (instead
>>of "mi-ROH"), "SAL-vuh-daw DALL-y" (instead of "sal-va-DORR da-LEE")
>>and make "Gaudí" rhyme with "rowdy" (instead of "gow-DEE"), and,
>>getting back on track, " suh-VAN-tees" (instead of "thair-VAN-tess"),
>>so why not "don QUICK-sote"?
>
>
> Interesting. But a name is a name, right? Why change it? Is is that if it
> is a bit unusual, it should be disrespectfully massacred?
If I had met the Don in person and he had told me his name, I would of
course pronounce it that way. Seeing he is an imaginary person of
several centuries past, I don't consider it disrespectful to call him
Kwicksot.
>
> Now I wonder what do you do with the Vietnamese "Nguyen"? I say it
> *somewhat* like "win", trying to honor the name by saying as close as I
> possibly can to the original and not to appear to be provincial.
I have taught a large number of children with the name 'Nguyen'. I have
asked many of them how they say their name and I have had many, very
different answers. I go for a sort of nasal 'ng' followed by 'wen'.
--
Rob Bannister
Skitt
> Skitt wrote:
>> Now I wonder what do you do with the Vietnamese "Nguyen"? I say it
>> *somewhat* like "win", trying to honor the name by saying as close
>> as I possibly can to the original and not to appear to be provincial.
>
> I have taught a large number of children with the name 'Nguyen'. I
> have asked many of them how they say their name and I have had many,
> very different answers. I go for a sort of nasal 'ng' followed by
> 'wen'.
Ah, you do well, then.
Peter Morris
"Bob Martin" <bob.m...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:sJ7sb.87$0M2...@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
I would call the character "Key-ho-tay" but I would describe someone
as being "quick-zot-ick"
Peter Moylan
>I believe I've heard "kee-ho-tic" in the U.S., and I think we can
>expect to hear it more.
That's the only pronunciation I knew. I've just been to look at
some on-line dictionaries, and was surprised that none of them
agreed with me. I guess it's time to retrain myself into saying
the funny-sounding version.
Some of those dictionaries are really nasty in terms of popups,
by the way. I got a lot more information about Green Card
lotteries than about the word "quixotic". Time to change my
browser settings again.
I am I, Don Quick Oats,
The lord of La Mancha,
And onward to glory I go.
Do English singers really sing it like that?
--
Peter Moylan Peter....@newcastle.edu.au
http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au (OS/2 and eCS information and software)
Richard Maurer
Everybody's talking about the Kee-hoe-tay pronunce being the "original", but
the original would have bee Kee-show-tay. [S] (that is, the sound
represented by English "sh") was the original pronunciation of Spanish <x>.
later it went to [x], that is the <ch> of <Bach>. In Spain, <x> spellings
were often reformed to <j>, but in Mexico, they're kept.
So that's how "sherry" comes from Jerez. Once "Xeres".
[end quote] >>
Did we skip a step?
Was there a revolution in there?
(More likely I missed something)
I was following along
sh was the original
sh => <ch> as in Bach. OK
and then
<ch> => <j> as in Mexican Juan ?
How do Spaniards pronounce it today (in eye dialect).
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
John O'Flaherty
wrote:
>Robert Bannister wrote:
>> Skitt wrote:
>
>>> Now I wonder what do you do with the Vietnamese "Nguyen"? I say it
>>> *somewhat* like "win", trying to honor the name by saying as close
>>> as I possibly can to the original and not to appear to be provincial.
>>
>> I have taught a large number of children with the name 'Nguyen'. I
>> have asked many of them how they say their name and I have had many,
>> very different answers. I go for a sort of nasal 'ng' followed by
>> 'wen'.
>
>Ah, you do well, then.
Just say 'thing wee'en'. The sneak up on it by saying it faster and
dropping thi-.
John O'Flaherty
Now take the next step, and say 'haagwaar'.
--
john
R H Draney
>
>I would call the character "Key-ho-tay" but I would describe someone
>as being "quick-zot-ick"
How long has it been since anyone has actually used the word "quixotic" in
conversation?...mind you, it's a show-stopper in Scrabble....
"Donkey shot" sounds like some obscure drinking game in a college dorm..."me and
some dudes were sitting around, nothing much happening, so we decided to do some
donkey shots"....r
J. J. Lodder
> I'm also British, but I say (and taught others to say) "'quicksote" (or
> more accurately perhaps "quicks't"). Similarly "Don Juan" is "don jew'n",
> not "hwahn": the first stanza of Byron's long poem rhymes "Juan" with "new
> one" and "true one". As others have pointed out, the adjective "quixotic" is
> probably enough to confirm "quicksot" or something similar. And, to revive a
> recent thread, "jaguar" is (everywhere, I think?) in BrE JAG-yoo-'r, whether
> referring to cat or car.
There have been discussions along the same lines
about how Mac OS X.2, code name 'Jaguar' should be pronounced.
Apples current big cat, OS X v10.3 code name 'Panther'
gives less problems,
Jan
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> Peter Morris filted:
> >I would call the character "Key-ho-tay" but I would
> >describe someone as being "quick-zot-ick"
> How long has it been since anyone has actually used
> the word "quixotic" in conversation?
[...]
Five-and-a-half years in my case. Since I write like I talk, I just
used it in my electronic conversation with Bob Lieblich on March 10, 1998:
"You see, Mr. L, it is my quixotic mission in life to prick and
deflate self-impressed gasbags, be they professors, politicians,
judges or other self-anointed pains-in-the-ass. "
--
Reinhold (Dena Rey) Aman
Ross Howard
<carmenl...@yahoo.com> wrought:
I think the Spanish "j" (which sounds very similar to the German and
Scots "ch") was probably already in place in Cervantes's time, or a
kind of halfway "hy"-type sound would be used.
Javi?
Ross Howard
<Richar...@worldnet.att.net> wrought:
><< [Carmen L. Abruzzi] (re Quixote)
>Everybody's talking about the Kee-hoe-tay pronunce being the "original", but
>the original would have bee Kee-show-tay. [S] (that is, the sound
>represented by English "sh") was the original pronunciation of Spanish <x>.
>later it went to [x], that is the <ch> of <Bach>. In Spain, <x> spellings
>were often reformed to <j>, but in Mexico, they're kept.
>
>So that's how "sherry" comes from Jerez. Once "Xeres".
>[end quote] >>
>
>
>
>
>Did we skip a step?
>Was there a revolution in there?
>(More likely I missed something)
>
>I was following along
> sh was the original
> sh => <ch> as in Bach. OK
>and then
> <ch> => <j> as in Mexican Juan ?
>
>
>How do Spaniards pronounce it today (in eye dialect).
It's roughly "kee-HOT-eh" in Spain, with the "j" -- as in all words
where it appears, and like "ge" and "gi" -- varying between
very-English-like aspiration (south-western Spain and the Canary
Islands) and a more guttural German-"ch"-like sound (most of the rest
of the Peninsula).
Ross Howard
<am...@sonic.net> wrought:
Only two and a half months in my case (23 August 2003):
"(Asked he, in his Quixotic quest for the standardisation of
hyphenated compound premodifiers.)"
I'm now not sure if I should have hyphenated it, though -- it looks
groovier Rey's way. Gotta love them exquisite words with both a "q"
and an "x" in 'em.
Howard G
david56
> In article <sJ7sb.87$0M2...@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net>,
> Bob Martin <bob.m...@excite.com> wrote:
> >According to Google the British pronunciation is "quick-sote" whereas
> >the US style is "kee-ho-tay", but I have just heard a BBC announcer say
> >"donkey-shot" (and I have heard this before on BBC R3 so it is not this
> >particular announcer being stupid). I think the US style is similar to
> >the original Spanish pronunciation, but in the UK it is thought to sound
> >pretentious. However, I would sooner sound a bit of a poser than bloody
> >ridiculous, which is how I would feel using "quick-sote" or "donkey-shot".
>
> "Quick-sote" is at least consistent with "quixotic" (which I presume we
> all agree about). It's been the only pronunciation in British English
> for a very long time.
>
> "Donkey-shot" is (more or less) French, and was probably correct on Radio
> Three. The composer escapes me at the moment.
There are lots of musical works based on the Don - it's been a
popular work to transfer to other media.
There is a set of songs by Ibert, who was French.
--
David
=====
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> How does a Spanish speaking person pronounce "Don Quixote"?
(Hyphen, man, hyphen!)
"Ell LOH-koh pen-DEH-khoh"?
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Javi
> How does a Spanish speaking person pronounce "Don Quixote"?
/'don ki'khote/ or /'don ki'hote/
Don Phillipson
news:bor23c$f...@rac2.wam.umd.edu...
> In article <sJ7sb.87$0M2...@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net>,
> Bob Martin <bob.m...@excite.com> wrote:
> >According to Google the British pronunciation is "quick-sote" whereas
> >the US style is "kee-ho-tay", but I have just heard a BBC announcer say
> >"donkey-shot"
>
> "Donkey-shot" seems like a bad attempt to pronounce the words as if they
> were French!?!?
Don Quichotte is the title of at least two
French musical works (popular in London.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)
Javi
Yes, in Cervantes time the change SH > J (unvoiced guttural fricative) had
taken place, at least in the dialect spoken in the Court, but it continued
being represented with X. Anyway, in those times there were no mass media,
so some dialects conserved SH. In the 18th century the RAE stablished
orthographic norms: the words that were pronounced with unvoiced guttural
fricative should be written with J. The graph X was to be used only in words
taken directly from Latin or Greek, where X is pronounced KS.
Heres is the beginning of the first edition of the book, where you can see
Quixote, exercicio, for Quijote, ejercicio, and some other orthographical
oddities, as z for c, ç for z, related to x for j: the medieval Spanish
sibilants have already changed to what they are nowadys, but the orthography
maintained the distinctions:
EL INGENIOSO
HIDALGO DON QVIXOTE
DE LA MANCHA
Compuesto por Miguel de Ceruantes
Saauedra.
DIRIGIDO AL DVQVE DE BEIAR,
Marques de Gibraleon, Conde de Benalcaçar Bañares,
Vizconde de la Puebla de Alcozer, Señor de
las villas de Capilla, Curiel y
Burguillos.
(....)
PRIMERA PARTE
DEL INGENIOSO
hidalgo don Quixote de
la Mancha.
Capitulo Primero 5
Que trata de la condicion y exercicio del famoso
hidalgo don Quixote de la Mancha.
En vn lugar de la Mancha, de cuyo nombre
no quiero acordarme, no ha mucho tiempo que
viuia vn hidalgo de los de lança en astillero, 10
adarga antigua, rozin flaco y galgo corredor.
dcw
Robert Lieblich <Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote:
>dcw wrote:
>> "Donkey-shot" is (more or less) French, and was probably correct on Radio
>> Three. The composer escapes me at the moment.
>
>You're probably thinking of Massenet.
Possibly. Or Ravel, which may be playing on R3 even as I type.
David
Frances Kemmish
> In article <sJ7sb.87$0M2...@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net>,
> Bob Martin <bob.m...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>According to Google the British pronunciation is "quick-sote" whereas
>>the US style is "kee-ho-tay", but I have just heard a BBC announcer say
>>"donkey-shot" (and I have heard this before on BBC R3 so it is not this
>>particular announcer being stupid). I think the US style is similar to
>>the original Spanish pronunciation, but in the UK it is thought to sound
>>pretentious. However, I would sooner sound a bit of a poser than bloody
>>ridiculous, which is how I would feel using "quick-sote" or "donkey-shot".
>
>
> "Quick-sote" is at least consistent with "quixotic" (which I presume we
> all agree about). It's been the only pronunciation in British English
> for a very long time.
>
> "Donkey-shot" is (more or less) French, and was probably correct on Radio
> Three. The composer escapes me at the moment.
>
Paris Opera Ballet has a new production of "Don Quixote" that opened
recently. Perhaps that was the context of the BBC report, and the reason
for the pronunciation apparently imitating the French.
Fran
John Varela
> "Donkey-shot" is (more or less) French, and was probably correct on Radio
> Three.
And also closer to the original Spanish pronunciation. 500 years ago X
represented the "sh" sound in Castillian, as it still does in Portuguese,
Catalan, and (I think) Galician.
--
John Varela
(Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much.
John Varela
<carmenl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Everybody's talking about the Kee-hoe-tay pronunce being the "original", but
> the original would have bee Kee-show-tay. [S] (that is, the sound
> represented by English "sh") was the original pronunciation of Spanish <x>.
> later it went to [x], that is the <ch> of <Bach>. In Spain, <x> spellings
> were often reformed to <j>, but in Mexico, they're kept.
>
> So that's how "sherry" comes from Jerez. Once "Xeres".
Also all those Nahuatl and Mayan place names in Mexico with X's in them.
Uxmal is pronounced "Ooshmal", and so forth. Mexico itself was originally
"Meshica".
Evan Kirshenbaum
Why? The animal was a "yaguara" in Guarani and a "jaguara" in Tupi.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If we have to re-invent the wheel,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |can we at least make it round this
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time?
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Javi
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:15:44 UTC, D.C....@ukc.ac.uk (dcw) wrote:
>
>> "Donkey-shot" is (more or less) French, and was probably correct on
>> Radio Three.
>
> And also closer to the original Spanish pronunciation. 500 years ago
> X represented the "sh" sound in Castillian, as it still does in
> Portuguese, Catalan, and (I think) Galician.
You are right. And in Basque.
Ross Howard
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrought:
>John O'Flaherty <quia...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:48:19 +0000, Ian Noble <> wrote:
>>
>> >I've been saying "don key-hotay", "don hwan" and (for the animal,
>> >but not the car) "jagwar" since (at least) school in Yorkshire in
>> >the 60s.
>>
>> Now take the next step, and say 'haagwaar'.
>
>Why? The animal was a "yaguara" in Guarani and a "jaguara" in Tupi.
Was the same transcription system used for both, or was it really /j/
versus /dZ/?
--
Ross Howard
("Yes, but they do so much wonderful work for charity, don't they?")
Alec McKenzie
"Carmen L. Abruzzi" <carmenl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> So that's how "sherry" comes from Jerez. Once "Xeres".
Not directly. First it was called "sherries", and then it became
"sherry" on the grounds that it should be singular, after all.
--
Alec McKenzie
mcke...@despammed.com
Ben Zimmer
Alec McKenzie wrote:
>
> In article <BBD6B30A.301E%carmenl...@yahoo.com>,
> "Carmen L. Abruzzi" <carmenl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > So that's how "sherry" comes from Jerez. Once "Xeres".
>
> Not directly. First it was called "sherries", and then it became
> "sherry" on the grounds that it should be singular, after all.
Cf. other "false plurals":
cerise > cherry, cherries
chaise > shay(s)
chassis > sash(es) (for a window)
pease > pea(s)
richesse > riches (pl.)
Chinese > Chinee(s)
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
[...]
> Gotta love them exquisite words
> with both a "q" and an "x" in 'em.
I also love x-less "quagga."
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Peter Moylan
>In article <BBD6B30A.301E%carmenl...@yahoo.com>,
> "Carmen L. Abruzzi" <carmenl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> So that's how "sherry" comes from Jerez. Once "Xeres".
>
>Not directly. First it was called "sherries", and then it became
>"sherry" on the grounds that it should be singular, after all.
Gimme a martinus.
--
Peter Moylan Peter....@newcastle.edu.au
http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au (OS/2 and eCS information and software)
John O'Flaherty
>John O'Flaherty <quia...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:48:19 +0000, Ian Noble <> wrote:
>>
>> >I've been saying "don key-hotay", "don hwan" and (for the animal,
>> >but not the car) "jagwar" since (at least) school in Yorkshire in
>> >the 60s.
>>
>> Now take the next step, and say 'haagwaar'.
>
>Why? The animal was a "yaguara" in Guarani and a "jaguara" in Tupi.
That would be the next step after that.
--
johm
J. J. Lodder
> In article <1gt98sa.pcc...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,
> J. J. Lodder <jjl...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
> >Graphic Converter (solidly German in origin, much used on the Mac)
> >also offers either left or right, or clockwise, counterclockkwise.
> >
> >Must be due to American cultural imperialism of course.
> >(or simpler, comes from direct translation of the German term,
> >'gegenuhrzeigersinn')
>
> Is "gegen-" more "counter-" then "anti-"?
The Germans know about 'anti' too,
but not for clocks, afaik,
Jan
John Dean
> In article <1gt98sa.pcc...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,
> J. J. Lodder <jjl...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>> Graphic Converter (solidly German in origin, much used on the Mac)
>> also offers either left or right, or clockwise, counterclockkwise.
>>
>> Must be due to American cultural imperialism of course.
>> (or simpler, comes from direct translation of the German term,
>> 'gegenuhrzeigersinn')
>
> Is "gegen-" more "counter-" then "anti-"?
>
such as "Gegen den Frost hilft kein Zittern" (Shivering is no help
against frost) or "Gegen die Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens"
(Against stupidity the Gods often struggle in vain).
My Collins says German for clockwise is "im Uhrzeigersinn" (two words,
literally "in the direction of the clock") and ant-clockwise is "gegen
(also 'entgegen') dem Uhrzeigersinn" (three words).
--
John Dean
Oxford
J. J. Lodder
> dcw wrote:
> > In article <1gt98sa.pcc...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,
> > J. J. Lodder <jjl...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> >
> >> Graphic Converter (solidly German in origin, much used on the Mac)
> >> also offers either left or right, or clockwise, counterclockkwise.
> >>
> >> Must be due to American cultural imperialism of course.
> >> (or simpler, comes from direct translation of the German term,
> >> 'gegenuhrzeigersinn')
> >
> > Is "gegen-" more "counter-" then "anti-"?
> >
> "gegen" can be both and also means "against" - staple of German proverbs
> such as "Gegen den Frost hilft kein Zittern" (Shivering is no help
> against frost) or "Gegen die Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens"
> (Against stupidity the Gods often struggle in vain).
"Mit der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens." (Schiller),
ohne gegen darin, according to my source.
Yours may be a back-translation from the English.
Asimov made "Against stupidity, the Gods themselves, contend in vain",
out of it.
But being an optimist against all odds,
he added a question mark behind his last in vain.
Best,
Jan
Mark Brader
> > ... German proverbs
> > such as "Gegen den Frost hilft kein Zittern" (Shivering is no help
> > against frost) or "Gegen die Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens"
> > (Against stupidity the Gods often struggle in vain).
> "Mit der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens." (Schiller),
> ohne gegen darin, according to my source.
> Yours may be a back-translation from the English.
> Asimov made "Against stupidity, the Gods themselves, contend in vain",
> out of it.
He certainly quoted it that way (in his novel "The Gods Themselves"),
but it could well have been someone else's translation. He didn't know
German at a level as to read literature, I'm pretty sure.
> But ... he added a question mark behind his last in vain.
Not as part of the translation -- that was only when he turned it into
a title (for the third part of the novel).
--
Mark Brader "You have seen this incident, based on
Toronto sworn testimony. Can you prove that it
m...@vex.net didn't happen?" -- Plan 9 from Outer Space
K. Edgcombe
John Dean <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>against frost) or "Gegen die Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens"
>(Against stupidity the Gods often struggle in vain).
No "often" about it. The Gods themselves struggle in vain.
Katy
rban...@shaw.ca
That's an improvement; stick to schoolmistressing Hun stuff.