Big Sibling is watching you

[Hibou]

'Google launches "woke" language function to be more inclusive' -
<https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/google-launches-woke-language-function-to-be-more-inclusive-3667567>
-

"Google is rolling out a new 'inclusive language' function that is
designed to avoid the use of politically incorrect words. ... Among the
words Google objects to is 'landlord' as Google considers this as not
inclusive to all. It suggests the word should be changed to 'property
owner' or 'proprietor' instead. Other more gender-inclusive alternatives
include changing 'mankind' to 'humankind', 'policeman' to 'police
officers', and replacing 'housewife' to 'stay-at-home-spouse'. The tool
also objects to the technical term 'motherboard'...."

"Designed to avoid" here apparently means "chivvying people into
complying with the orthodoxy of the moment".

[bruce bowser]

Everyone is easily offended by some form of utterance. Maybe the 'offense' is what they're trying to stop.

[Ken Blake]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 07:09:02 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:

>'Google launches "woke" language function to be more inclusive' -
><https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/google-launches-woke-language-function-to-be-more-inclusive-3667567>
>-
>
>"Google is rolling out a new 'inclusive language' function that is
>designed to avoid the use of politically incorrect words. ... Among the
>words Google objects to is 'landlord' as Google considers this as not
>inclusive to all. It suggests the word should be changed to 'property
>owner' or 'proprietor' instead. Other more gender-inclusive alternatives
>include changing 'mankind' to 'humankind', 'policeman' to 'police
>officers', and replacing 'housewife' to 'stay-at-home-spouse'. The tool
>also objects to the technical term 'motherboard'...."

Ugh! I hate all this "politically correct" stuff.

[Transition Zone]

But, will you hate it five minutes from now? A week from now? 40 years from now?

[Quinn C]

* Ken Blake:

Do you want to go back to stewardesses, barmaids and women doctors?

It's just a continuation of a trend that has been happening in English
for decades.

--
O'Brien: Nog, did you reroute that damned gyrodyne?
Nog: I'm trying, but the damned thruster array won't take the input.
O'Brien: Try the lateral impulse thrusters. And watch your mouth.
-- DS9, S06E02

[charles]

In article <1iy9yso0...@mid.crommatograph.info>,

Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> * Ken Blake:

> > On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 07:09:02 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:
> >
> >>'Google launches "woke" language function to be more inclusive' -
> >><https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/google-launches-woke-language-function-to-be-more-inclusive-3667567>
> >>-
> >>
> >>"Google is rolling out a new 'inclusive language' function that is
> >>designed to avoid the use of politically incorrect words. ... Among the
> >> words Google objects to is 'landlord' as Google considers this as not
> >>inclusive to all. It suggests the word should be changed to 'property
> >>owner' or 'proprietor' instead. Other more gender-inclusive
> >>alternatives include changing 'mankind' to 'humankind', 'policeman' to
> >>'police officers', and replacing 'housewife' to 'stay-at-home-spouse'.
> >>The tool also objects to the technical term 'motherboard'...."
> >
> > Ugh! I hate all this "politically correct" stuff.

> Do you want to go back to stewardesses, barmaids and women doctors?

The other week, I was directed to see a male doctor at my GP's surgery.

> It's just a continuation of a trend that has been happening in English
> for decades.

--

from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Transition Zone]

On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 1:28:46 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Ken Blake:
> > On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 07:09:02 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:
> >
> >>'Google launches "woke" language function to be more inclusive' -
> >><https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/google-launches-woke-language-function-to-be-more-inclusive-3667567>
> >>-
> >>
> >>"Google is rolling out a new 'inclusive language' function that is
> >>designed to avoid the use of politically incorrect words. ... Among the
> >>words Google objects to is 'landlord' as Google considers this as not
> >>inclusive to all. It suggests the word should be changed to 'property
> >>owner' or 'proprietor' instead. Other more gender-inclusive alternatives
> >>include changing 'mankind' to 'humankind', 'policeman' to 'police
> >>officers', and replacing 'housewife' to 'stay-at-home-spouse'. The tool
> >>also objects to the technical term 'motherboard'...."
> >
> > Ugh! I hate all this "politically correct" stuff.
> Do you want to go back to stewardesses, barmaids and women doctors?

Why else are red states there?

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-04-27 11:28, Quinn C wrote:
> * Ken Blake:
>
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 07:09:02 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:
>>
>>> 'Google launches "woke" language function to be more inclusive' -
>>> <https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/google-launches-woke-language-function-to-be-more-inclusive-3667567>
>>> -
>>>
>>> "Google is rolling out a new 'inclusive language' function that is
>>> designed to avoid the use of politically incorrect words. ... Among the
>>> words Google objects to is 'landlord' as Google considers this as not
>>> inclusive to all. It suggests the word should be changed to 'property
>>> owner' or 'proprietor' instead. Other more gender-inclusive alternatives
>>> include changing 'mankind' to 'humankind', 'policeman' to 'police
>>> officers', and replacing 'housewife' to 'stay-at-home-spouse'. The tool
>>> also objects to the technical term 'motherboard'...."
>>
>> Ugh! I hate all this "politically correct" stuff.
>
> Do you want to go back to stewardesses, barmaids and women doctors?

Not necessarily, for many of that sort of thing. I am fine with flight
attendant, bartender, server, and doctor. What I don't want is to be
told that 'motherboard' is considered objectionable.

Keep this crap up and I will go back to steward and stewardess.

> It's just a continuation of a trend that has been happening in English
> for decades.

Which appears to be going WAY too far these days.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 27/04/2022 8:25 pm, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2022-04-27 11:28, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Ken Blake:
>>
>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 07:09:02 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 'Google launches "woke" language function to be more inclusive' -
>>>> <https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/google-launches-woke-language-function-to-be-more-inclusive-3667567>
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> "Google is rolling out a new 'inclusive language' function that is
>>>> designed to avoid the use of politically incorrect words. ... Among the
>>>> words Google objects to is 'landlord' as Google considers this as not
>>>> inclusive to all. It suggests the word should be changed to 'property

>>>> owner' or 'proprietor' instead. Other more gender-inclusive > .

>>>> alternatives
>>>> include changing 'mankind' to 'humankind', 'policeman' to 'police
>>>> officers', and replacing 'housewife' to 'stay-at-home-spouse'. The tool
>>>> also objects to the technical term 'motherboard'...."
>>>
>>> Ugh! I hate all this "politically correct" stuff.
>>
>> Do you want to go back to stewardesses, barmaids and women doctors?
>
> Not necessarily, for many of that sort of thing. I am fine with flight
> attendant, bartender, server, and doctor. What I don't want is to be
> told that 'motherboard' is considered objectionable.

I would be perfectly happy to go back to people being free to say
whatever the hell they like and not be bullied and excoriated by
self-appointed thought police.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Quinn C]

* Richard Heathfield:

People have always commented on other people's language, and I continue
to be a more likely target of bullying than you, despite what you may
imagine.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Quinn C]

* lar3ryca:

Sure, because where the world was when one was 20 is always the exact
right amount. 10 years earlier, it was the dark ages, and 10 years
later, the fall of civilization.

[Lewis]

You miss the days of people using words like nigger, faggot, wop, spick
kike, wetback, beaner, etc?

I don't.


--
Don't be too sure I'm as crooked as I'm supposed to be. ~ Sam Spade

[Lewis]

In message <59dfd613...@candehope.me.uk> charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> In article <1iy9yso0...@mid.crommatograph.info>,
> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>> * Ken Blake:

>> > On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 07:09:02 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:
>> >
>> >>'Google launches "woke" language function to be more inclusive' -
>> >><https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/google-launches-woke-language-function-to-be-more-inclusive-3667567>
>> >>-
>> >>
>> >>"Google is rolling out a new 'inclusive language' function that is
>> >>designed to avoid the use of politically incorrect words. ... Among the
>> >> words Google objects to is 'landlord' as Google considers this as not
>> >>inclusive to all. It suggests the word should be changed to 'property
>> >>owner' or 'proprietor' instead. Other more gender-inclusive
>> >>alternatives include changing 'mankind' to 'humankind', 'policeman' to
>> >>'police officers', and replacing 'housewife' to 'stay-at-home-spouse'.
>> >>The tool also objects to the technical term 'motherboard'...."
>> >
>> > Ugh! I hate all this "politically correct" stuff.

>> Do you want to go back to stewardesses, barmaids and women doctors?

> The other week, I was directed to see a male doctor at my GP's surgery.

I was recently in the hospital and while almost all the nurses were
women, only about half the doctors were men. That's quite a change since
my childhood when seeing a doctor who was a woman was quite rare. More
surprising to me, my surgeon was also a woman.

Not surprising in the "A *woman* surgeon" but rather in the sense that
believe surgery is still largely dominated bu men.

(surgery in the sense of cutting people open and playing around with the
internals).

>> It's just a continuation of a trend that has been happening in English
>> for decades.

Exactly.

--
Wally: That's my nickname, "Waly" with one el.
Dilbert: Who calls you that?
Wally: Most people, they just don't realize it.

[Ken Blake]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 13:28:40 -0400, Quinn C
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Ken Blake:
>
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 07:09:02 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:
>>
>>>'Google launches "woke" language function to be more inclusive' -
>>><https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/google-launches-woke-language-function-to-be-more-inclusive-3667567>
>>>-
>>>
>>>"Google is rolling out a new 'inclusive language' function that is
>>>designed to avoid the use of politically incorrect words. ... Among the
>>>words Google objects to is 'landlord' as Google considers this as not
>>>inclusive to all. It suggests the word should be changed to 'property
>>>owner' or 'proprietor' instead. Other more gender-inclusive alternatives
>>>include changing 'mankind' to 'humankind', 'policeman' to 'police
>>>officers', and replacing 'housewife' to 'stay-at-home-spouse'. The tool
>>>also objects to the technical term 'motherboard'...."
>>
>> Ugh! I hate all this "politically correct" stuff.
>
>Do you want to go back to stewardesses, barmaids and women doctors?

No. As far as I'm concerned they should be called stewards,
bartenders, and doctors, regardless of sex.

[Ken Blake]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 13:25:12 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:

>On 2022-04-27 11:28, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Ken Blake:
>>
>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 07:09:02 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 'Google launches "woke" language function to be more inclusive' -
>>>> <https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/google-launches-woke-language-function-to-be-more-inclusive-3667567>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> "Google is rolling out a new 'inclusive language' function that is
>>>> designed to avoid the use of politically incorrect words. ... Among the
>>>> words Google objects to is 'landlord' as Google considers this as not
>>>> inclusive to all. It suggests the word should be changed to 'property
>>>> owner' or 'proprietor' instead. Other more gender-inclusive alternatives
>>>> include changing 'mankind' to 'humankind', 'policeman' to 'police
>>>> officers', and replacing 'housewife' to 'stay-at-home-spouse'. The tool
>>>> also objects to the technical term 'motherboard'...."
>>>
>>> Ugh! I hate all this "politically correct" stuff.
>>
>> Do you want to go back to stewardesses, barmaids and women doctors?
>
>Not necessarily, for many of that sort of thing. I am fine with flight
>attendant, bartender, server, and doctor. What I don't want is to be
>told that 'motherboard' is considered objectionable.

Same for me.

>Keep this crap up and I will go back to steward and stewardess.
>
>> It's just a continuation of a trend that has been happening in English
>> for decades.
>
>Which appears to be going WAY too far these days.

Yes.

[lar3ryca]

You presume too much.
Am I to believe that you think 'motherboard' should be relegated to the
status of 'politically unacceptable'?

[Richard Heathfield]

On 28/04/2022 1:07 am, lar3ryca wrote:

<snip>

> Am I to believe that you think 'motherboard' should be relegated to the
> status of 'politically unacceptable'?

Mislepidopterists like you should be downright ashamed; this kind of
hate speech cannot be allowed to continue.

[Snidely]

on 4/27/2022, Ken Blake supposed :

Can't teach an old dog new tricks, so stay offa it's lawn?

/dps

--
Trust, but verify.

[Tony Cooper]

Did I miss the memo? Is that actually something being proposed?

What's the status on electrical cords and sockets. Are there still
"male" plugs and "female" sockets?
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[Peter Moylan]

On 28/04/22 10:07, lar3ryca wrote:
>
> You presume too much. Am I to believe that you think 'motherboard'
> should be relegated to the status of 'politically unacceptable'?

If they want to call it a fatherboard they'll have to change all the
connectors to the opposite polarity.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Peter Moylan]

They're working on an intersex version, where each side has a mixture of
protruding metal and recessed parts. This will have the advantage of an
increased risk of electrocution as you make the connection.

[lar3ryca]

If you can believe the article linked above, yes. When I first read it,
I thought it had to be satire. But the scary thing is that if it's true,
it didn't surprise me.

Years ago I read something purportedly written by a 'militant feminist'.
She said something like 'I was sitting in my living room jilling off to
some porn, when a cuntroach came skittering across the floor'. I figured
that was satire, but not long afterwards, I met someone who, while not
using those particular words, insisted on removing the syllable 'man'
from pretty much everything she said.

> What's the status on electrical cords and sockets. Are there still
> "male" plugs and "female" sockets?

No idea, but I refuse to engage in such stupidity.

[Hibou]

Already in use in France, at least, where, in a socket, the earth pin is
male and the live and neutral female. The plug is, of course, matchingly
hermaphrodite in the other sense. Slightly strange to UK eyes, but works
all right.

<https://www.cdiscount.com/pdt2/0/1/7/1/700x700/art3545411357017/rw/artezo-prise-simple-avec-terre-2p-t-16-a-blanc.jpg>


As to the subject of the thread, I think I'd start with the idea of
freedom of thought and speech, which I suppose most people would sign up
to. I think a corollary is that if one wants to change another's mind,
one should do it openly, by honest argument and persuasion. (Though I'm
tempted to add that freedom of thought may also entail the right to be
left alone and not importuned, unless one's thoughts and consequent
actions are harmful to others.)

Political correctness bypasses honest argument. It says, "You may use
only this approved vocabulary." It begs a number of questions: who has
approved the vocabulary? Are their ideas correct? Are the ideas they are
trying to suppress so harmful that they must be suppressed? And
suppressed by this indirect method?

Who is harmed by the word 'motherboard'?

I am in favour of equality of opportunity, but I think this censoring of
vocabulary stinks. One can argue that Google are simply supplying a
tool, but I understand it will be turned on by default. This suggests
they are setting themselves up as arbiters of what is acceptable, and
smacks of corporate cultural imperialism.

[Peter Moylan]

On 28/04/22 15:33, Hibou wrote:
> Le 28/04/2022 à 02:42, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>> On 28/04/22 11:27, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>> What's the status on electrical cords and sockets. Are there
>>> still "male" plugs and "female" sockets?
>>
>> They're working on an intersex version, where each side has a
>> mixture of protruding metal and recessed parts. This will have the
>> advantage of an increased risk of electrocution as you make the
>> connection.
>
> Already in use in France, at least, where, in a socket, the earth pin
> is male and the live and neutral female. The plug is, of course,
> matchingly hermaphrodite in the other sense. Slightly strange to UK
> eyes, but works all right.
>
> <https://www.cdiscount.com/pdt2/0/1/7/1/700x700/art3545411357017/rw/artezo-prise-simple-avec-terre-2p-t-16-a-blanc.jpg>
>

Yes, that's a sensible design. In any plug design the earth pin should
have some sort of priority. In Australian plugs, that is achieved by
making the earth pin long than the other two pins. I think that's also
true in a few other countries.

A more critical necessary requirement is that the active and neutral
pins should not make contact in the socket until the plug has been
inserted far enough that the gap between plug and socket is less than
the width of a baby's finger.

[Hibou]

Le 28/04/2022 à 07:00, Peter Moylan a écrit :

> On 28/04/22 15:33, Hibou wrote:
>>
>> Already in use in France, at least, where, in a socket, the earth pin
>> is male and the live and neutral female. The plug is, of course,
>> matchingly hermaphrodite in the other sense. Slightly strange to UK
>> eyes, but works all right.
>>
>> <https://www.cdiscount.com/pdt2/0/1/7/1/700x700/art3545411357017/rw/artezo-prise-simple-avec-terre-2p-t-16-a-blanc.jpg>
>>
>
> Yes, that's a sensible design. In any plug design the earth pin should
> have some sort of priority. In Australian plugs, that is achieved by
> making the earth pin long than the other two pins. I think that's also
> true in a few other countries.
>
> A more critical necessary requirement is that the active and neutral
> pins should not make contact in the socket until the plug has been
> inserted far enough that the gap between plug and socket is less than
> the width of a baby's finger.

Yes. And an absolute requirement is that anything that might give you a
belt should be a receptacle, not a pin. (I carefully avoid saying here
that anything that might give you a belt should be female.)

It is usual in UK sockets for there to be a shutter covering live and
neutral, which is pushed aside by the longer earth pin. This is intended
to defeat technically minded babies who equip themselves with
paper-clips, nails, screwdrivers, and the like.

<https://electrical.theiet.org/media/2408/figure-2.jpg>

[Madhu]

* Hibou <t4d8vh$8n8$2 @gioia.aioe.org> :
Wrote on Thu, 28 Apr 2022 06:33:37 +0100:

>
> As to the subject of the thread, I think I'd start with the idea of
> freedom of thought and speech, which I suppose most people would sign
> up to. I think a corollary is that if one wants to change another's
> mind, one should do it openly, by honest argument and
> persuasion. (Though I'm tempted to add that freedom of thought may
> also entail the right to be left alone and not importuned, unless
> one's thoughts and consequent actions are harmful to others.)
>
> Political correctness bypasses honest argument. It says, "You may use
> only this approved vocabulary." It begs a number of questions: who has
> approved the vocabulary? Are their ideas correct? Are the ideas they
> are trying to suppress so harmful that they must be suppressed? And
> suppressed by this indirect method?
>
> Who is harmed by the word 'motherboard'?
>
> I am in favour of equality of opportunity, but I think this censoring
> of vocabulary stinks. One can argue that Google are simply supplying a
> tool, but I understand it will be turned on by default. This suggests
> they are setting themselves up as arbiters of what is acceptable, and
> smacks of corporate cultural imperialism.

Google is the antichrist (this should be evident by now, I've posted it
several times)

What you are seeing is the old same orwellian agenda of 2+2 being
whatever it is that you are told it is. I'm not convinced that those
here pushing the agenda are in command of their faculties or acting
independently but are somehow compelled to follow the script

[CDB]

On 4/27/2022 6:22 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> * Richard Heathfield:

>> lar3ryca wrote:
>>> Quinn C wrote:
>>>> * Ken Blake:

I'm even more against that, because it is more likely to get physical.

But I'm against all kinds of bullying, partly because it's a natural
tendency in me that I once had to guard against (usually).

[Quinn C]

* charles:

> In article <1iy9yso0...@mid.crommatograph.info>,
> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>> * Ken Blake:
>
>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 07:09:02 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:
>>>
>>>>'Google launches "woke" language function to be more inclusive' -
>>>><https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/google-launches-woke-language-function-to-be-more-inclusive-3667567>
>>>>-
>>>>
>>>>"Google is rolling out a new 'inclusive language' function that is
>>>>designed to avoid the use of politically incorrect words. ... Among the
>>>> words Google objects to is 'landlord' as Google considers this as not
>>>>inclusive to all. It suggests the word should be changed to 'property
>>>>owner' or 'proprietor' instead. Other more gender-inclusive
>>>>alternatives include changing 'mankind' to 'humankind', 'policeman' to
>>>>'police officers', and replacing 'housewife' to 'stay-at-home-spouse'.
>>>>The tool also objects to the technical term 'motherboard'...."
>>>
>>> Ugh! I hate all this "politically correct" stuff.
>
>> Do you want to go back to stewardesses, barmaids and women doctors?
>
> The other week, I was directed to see a male doctor at my GP's surgery.

This needs more context to be understandable. I imagine you weren't
instructed to consult any of the male doctors available, just nonoe if
the female ones.

[Quinn C]

* Tony Cooper:

For various computer connections, "gender changers" were readily
available. I remember seeing one of these for the first time and being
sad about the non-availability of such an easy solution in other areas
of life.

[Quinn C]

* Lewis:

> Not surprising in the "A *woman* surgeon" but rather in the sense that
> believe surgery is still largely dominated bu men.
>
> (surgery in the sense of cutting people open and playing around with the
> internals).

What other sense of "surgery" is there (that also comes with surgeons)?

[Quinn C]

* Ken Blake:

> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 13:25:12 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
>>On 2022-04-27 11:28, Quinn C wrote:
>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 07:09:02 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 'Google launches "woke" language function to be more inclusive' -
>>>>> <https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/google-launches-woke-language-function-to-be-more-inclusive-3667567>
>>>>> -
>>>>>
>>>>> "Google is rolling out a new 'inclusive language' function that is
>>>>> designed to avoid the use of politically incorrect words. ... Among the
>>>>> words Google objects to is 'landlord' as Google considers this as not
>>>>> inclusive to all. It suggests the word should be changed to 'property
>>>>> owner' or 'proprietor' instead. Other more gender-inclusive alternatives
>>>>> include changing 'mankind' to 'humankind', 'policeman' to 'police
>>>>> officers', and replacing 'housewife' to 'stay-at-home-spouse'. The tool
>>>>> also objects to the technical term 'motherboard'...."
>>>>
>>>> Ugh! I hate all this "politically correct" stuff.
>>>
>>> Do you want to go back to stewardesses, barmaids and women doctors?
>>
>>Not necessarily, for many of that sort of thing. I am fine with flight
>>attendant, bartender, server, and doctor. What I don't want is to be
>>told that 'motherboard' is considered objectionable.
>
> Same for me.

I have no strong opinion on that specific word, although I can tell you
that it did feel a little weird when I first learned it about 40 years
ago, and the alternative "mainboard", which was around back then, seemed
more serious and appropriate.

In German, the literal translation of "motherboard" is a joke being
thrown around.

Conversely, you folks could probably derive some humor from the fact
that the German word for a nut (as in "nuts and bolts") is a homonym of
"mother" (although different in the plural).

[CDB]

On 4/28/2022 12:00 AM, lar3ryca wrote:
> Tony Cooper wrote:
>> lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>> Quinn C wrote:
>>>> lar3ryca:
>>>>> Quinn C wrote:
>>>>>> Ken Blake:

>>>>>>> Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:

>>>>>>>> 'Google launches "woke" language function to be more
>>>>>>>> inclusive' -
>>>>>>>> <https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/google-launches-woke-language-function-to-be-more-inclusive-3667567>

Nero Wolfe was once intrigued by a feminist's claim, reported to him by
Archie, that words like "piss" were patriarchally oppressive, and that
that one should be replaced by "viss". Archie had agreed politely that
she had a voint.

_Please Pass the Guilt_, 1973.

[Quinn C]

* Hibou:

> Political correctness bypasses honest argument. It says, "You may use
> only this approved vocabulary." It begs a number of questions: who has
> approved the vocabulary?

Whoever is boss within the organization that adopts guidelines for
vocabulary to be used while representing that organization.

For society at large, no such deciding body or rulebook exists, and
suggesting it does is political propaganda.

> Are their ideas correct? Are the ideas they are
> trying to suppress so harmful that they must be suppressed? And
> suppressed by this indirect method?

--
The need of a personal pronoun of the singular number and common
gender is so desperate, urgent, imperative, that ... it should long
since have grown on our speech -- The Atlantic Monthly (1878)

[lar3ryca]

Or metal (perhaps metal-coated) toy soldiers.
Don't ask me how I know.

> <https://electrical.theiet.org/media/2408/figure-2.jpg>

[Pamela]

On 20:47 27 Apr 2022, Richard Heathfield said:

> On 27/04/2022 8:25 pm, lar3ryca wrote:
>> On 2022-04-27 11:28, Quinn C wrote:
>>> * Ken Blake:

>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 07:09:02 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 'Google launches "woke" language function to be more inclusive' -
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/google-launches-woke-language-
>>>>> function-to-be-more-inclusive-3667567>

>>>>> -

>>>>>
>>>>> "Google is rolling out a new 'inclusive language' function that
>>>>> is designed to avoid the use of politically incorrect words. ...
>>>>> Among the words Google objects to is 'landlord' as Google
>>>>> considers this as not inclusive to all. It suggests the word
>>>>> should be changed to 'property owner' or 'proprietor' instead.
>>>>> Other more gender-inclusive alternatives include changing
>>>>> 'mankind' to 'humankind', 'policeman' to 'police officers', and
>>>>> replacing 'housewife' to 'stay-at-home-spouse'. The tool also
>>>>> objects to the technical term 'motherboard'...."
>>>>
>>>> Ugh! I hate all this "politically correct" stuff.
>>>
>>> Do you want to go back to stewardesses, barmaids and women doctors?
>>
>> Not necessarily, for many of that sort of thing. I am fine with
>> flight attendant, bartender, server, and doctor. What I don't want
>> is to be told that 'motherboard' is considered objectionable.
>

> I would be perfectly happy to go back to people being free to say
> whatever the hell they like and not be bullied and excoriated by
> self-appointed thought police.

Quite so. I still struggle with "chairperson" or "chairwoman" instead
of "chairman" despite it being one of the early words to fall foul of
political correctness decades ago.

[Ken Blake]

I don't struggle with either of those terms. I just don't use them.I
say, "chairman," which is the term I've always used and always to
hear/read, and as far as I'm concerned says nothing about the sex of
the person.

To me, even worse than "chairperson" or "chairwoman" is "chair,"
which I've heard many people say. As far as I'm concerned, a chair is
something to sit on.

I'm reminded that I also dislike the use of the word "person" instead
of "woman." I never used to complain about woman drivers, but these
days I sometimes complain about person drivers. When I do, my
complaint is not really about the driver, but the substitution of the
word "person" for "woman."

[Ken Blake]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:07:40 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:

Perhaps he thinks it should be called a "parentboard."

I'm reminded that IBM used to (still does?) call it a "mainboard," not
a "motherboard." I don't know why, but I wonder if political
correctness is the reason.

[Ken Blake]

Perhaps you mean "persecution" (er, that should be "personcution").

[Ken Blake]

What kind of baby? A male baby or a person baby?

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 07:52:51 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:

>Le 28/04/2022 à 07:00, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>> On 28/04/22 15:33, Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>> Already in use in France, at least, where, in a socket, the earth pin
>>> is male and the live and neutral female. The plug is, of course,
>>> matchingly hermaphrodite in the other sense. Slightly strange to UK
>>> eyes, but works all right.
>>>
>>> <https://www.cdiscount.com/pdt2/0/1/7/1/700x700/art3545411357017/rw/artezo-prise-simple-avec-terre-2p-t-16-a-blanc.jpg>
>>>
>>
>> Yes, that's a sensible design. In any plug design the earth pin should
>> have some sort of priority. In Australian plugs, that is achieved by
>> making the earth pin long than the other two pins. I think that's also
>> true in a few other countries.
>>
>> A more critical necessary requirement is that the active and neutral
>> pins should not make contact in the socket until the plug has been
>> inserted far enough that the gap between plug and socket is less than
>> the width of a baby's finger.
>
>Yes. And an absolute requirement is that anything that might give you a
>belt should be a receptacle, not a pin. (I carefully avoid saying here
>that anything that might give you a belt should be female.)

I try to stay away from anyone who might give me a belt, regardless of
sex,

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 08:36:36 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>
wrote:

I think it depends on the individual situation.

If the person is John Jones, it's "Chairman".
If the person is Judy Jones, it's "Chairwoman".
If we don't know who's in the position, it's "Chairperson".

However, if the company decides that the title of the person will
always be "Chairperson", that's their prerogative.

[Ken Blake]

Do those still exist? I used to have a bunch wiwal, but I haven't seen
any in years.

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:02:33 -0400, Quinn C
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Hibou:
>
>> Political correctness bypasses honest argument. It says, "You may use
>> only this approved vocabulary." It begs a number of questions: who has
>> approved the vocabulary?
>
>Whoever is boss within the organization that adopts guidelines for
>vocabulary to be used while representing that organization.
>
>For society at large, no such deciding body or rulebook exists, and
>suggesting it does is political propaganda.

Political propaganda and political correctness are essentially the
same thing.

[Ken Blake]

Did she get her medical insurance from Hu-a?

That seems like an inhu- thing to do.

[charles]

In article <XnsAE87A45...@144.76.35.252>,

I know a number of female Chairmen.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[charles]

In article <tkcl6hlm8271r5evv...@4ax.com>,

Person is wrong, it should be 'perchild'.

> I don't struggle with either of those terms. I just don't use them.I
> say, "chairman," which is the term I've always used and always to
> hear/read, and as far as I'm concerned says nothing about the sex of
> the person.

> To me, even worse than "chairperson" or "chairwoman" is "chair,"
> which I've heard many people say. As far as I'm concerned, a chair is
> something to sit on.

> I'm reminded that I also dislike the use of the word "person" instead
> of "woman." I never used to complain about woman drivers, but these
> days I sometimes complain about person drivers. When I do, my
> complaint is not really about the driver, but the substitution of the
> word "person" for "woman."

[Richard Heathfield]

Having struggled briefly with the chairwoman, I sidestepped around her
and have carried on magnificently without her. By now she must be
decades behind.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Quinn C]

* Ken Blake:

> To me, even worse than "chairperson" or "chairwoman" is "chair,"
> which I've heard many people say. As far as I'm concerned, a chair is
> something to sit on.

I watched the TV series "The Chair" mainly because of Sandra Oh, and
she's not playing a piece of furniture (but "the newly appointed chair
of the English department at Pembroke University.")

It's not a particularly exciting work; I don't know how it feels for
people themselves involved in university politics.

The word "chair" just feels normal at this point in this context. There
may be other contexts where that is less the case.

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:43:22 -0400, Quinn C
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Ken Blake:
>
>> To me, even worse than "chairperson" or "chairwoman" is "chair,"
>> which I've heard many people say. As far as I'm concerned, a chair is
>> something to sit on.
>
>I watched the TV series "The Chair" mainly because of Sandra Oh, and
>she's not playing a piece of furniture (but "the newly appointed chair
>of the English department at Pembroke University.")
>
>It's not a particularly exciting work; I don't know how it feels for
>people themselves involved in university politics.
>
>The word "chair" just feels normal at this point in this context.

To you. Not to me.

[Sam Plusnet]

On 28-Apr-22 13:40, Quinn C wrote:
> * Lewis:
>
>> Not surprising in the "A *woman* surgeon" but rather in the sense that
>> believe surgery is still largely dominated bu men.
>>
>> (surgery in the sense of cutting people open and playing around with the
>> internals).
>
> What other sense of "surgery" is there (that also comes with surgeons)?
>

In the UK, the building where GPs ply their trade is routinely called
"The Surgery".
They may or may not do minor surgery on the premises.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

On 28-Apr-22 17:43, Quinn C wrote:
> * Ken Blake:
>
>> To me, even worse than "chairperson" or "chairwoman" is "chair,"
>> which I've heard many people say. As far as I'm concerned, a chair is
>> something to sit on.

If you want something to sit on, try a committee.

>
> I watched the TV series "The Chair" mainly because of Sandra Oh, and
> she's not playing a piece of furniture (but "the newly appointed chair
> of the English department at Pembroke University.")

?? The county town of Pembrokeshire has a population of around 7,500.
It's a bit too small to have its own university.

Pembroke college is another matter.


--
Sam Plusnet

[Pamela]

I wonder if "chairman" was actually the first word changed to
accomodate gender.

[Sam Plusnet]

On 28-Apr-22 7:52, Hibou wrote:
> Le 28/04/2022 à 07:00, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>> On 28/04/22 15:33, Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>> Already in use in France, at least, where, in a socket, the earth pin
>>> is male and the live and neutral female. The plug is, of course,
>>> matchingly hermaphrodite in the other sense. Slightly strange to UK
>>> eyes, but works all right.
>>>
>>> <https://www.cdiscount.com/pdt2/0/1/7/1/700x700/art3545411357017/rw/artezo-prise-simple-avec-terre-2p-t-16-a-blanc.jpg>
>>>
>>
>> Yes, that's a sensible design. In any plug design the earth pin should
>> have some sort of priority. In Australian plugs, that is achieved by
>> making the earth pin long than the other two pins. I think that's also
>> true in a few other countries.
>>
>> A more critical necessary requirement is that the active and neutral
>> pins should not make contact in the socket until the plug has been
>> inserted far enough that the gap between plug and socket is less than
>> the width of a baby's finger.
>
> Yes. And an absolute requirement is that anything that might give you a
> belt should be a receptacle, not a pin. (I carefully avoid saying here
> that anything that might give you a belt should be female.)
>
> It is usual in UK sockets for there to be a shutter covering live and
> neutral, which is pushed aside by the longer earth pin. This is intended
> to defeat technically minded babies who equip themselves with
> paper-clips, nails, screwdrivers, and the like.
>

> <https://electrical.theiet.org/media/2408/figure-2.jpg>

The UK design of plug ensures that, as you pull it out of the socket, by
the time there is any exposed metal on the Live and Neutral pins, they
are isolated from the supply.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

On 28-Apr-22 2:28, Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 28/04/22 10:07, lar3ryca wrote:
>>
>> You presume too much. Am I to believe that you think 'motherboard'
>> should be relegated to the status of 'politically unacceptable'?
>

> If they want to call it a fatherboard they'll have to change all the
> connectors to the opposite polarity.
>
Given the sheer number of connectors on a motherboard, it should be
called an orgy-board.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

Pembroke Dock OTOH was big enough for a naval yard. (actual current popln erm not much bigger than Pembroke). Nice station building:

Bother, it's closed:
http://whatpub.com/pubs/PEM/201/station-inn-pembroke-dock

> Pembroke college is another matter.
>


--

Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Ken Blake]

That's great. Much better than the US kind.

[lar3ryca]

I have no idea. I had some when WIWAL. I believe I learned that lesson
in about 1947 or so.

[lar3ryca]

When I worked for them, from '66 to '72, I had never heard of political
correctness.

The machines I worked on had 'cards' plugged into 'boards' (I don't
recall the terminology for the boards), which were held in place in a
'gate'. I thing the term 'gate' referred to the fact that it was hinged,
and could be swung out to access the cards.

[Quinn C]

* Sam Plusnet:

| the fictional Pembroke University, "in what seems like New England".

[Quinn C]

* Sam Plusnet:

That's the case I considered excluded by my parenthesis (and by the word
"surgeon" in the original.)

[Sam Plusnet]

Wasn't a "chairman" someone who carried one end of a sedan chair?

I think it was a pretty gender-specific occupation.

--
Sam Plusnet

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-04-28 09:39, Ken Blake wrote:

[Peter Moylan]

> Or metal (perhaps metal-coated) toy soldiers. Don't ask me how I
> know.
>
>> <https://electrical.theiet.org/media/2408/figure-2.jpg>

When my children were young I used dummy power plugs, something like this

<https://www.bunnings.com.au/dreambaby-child-safety-power-outlet-plug-12-pack_p4211316?region_id=117319&gclid=CjwKCAjw9qiTBhBbEiwAp-GE0QUofFGnMYlr00erz_HtpJQ38zSH9CFP39_t27j9Saaak_1Cy00a3RoCLEAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds>

The image is not terribly clear. (When I google for "dummy power plug" I
mostly get results for something entirely different, and the image
search is even worse.) Basically, these are just things that you plug
into power sockets to cover up the holes. They're not easy to remove if
you are not an adult.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Lewis]

In message <gsaxy6jn...@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> * Lewis:

>> Not surprising in the "A *woman* surgeon" but rather in the sense that
>> believe surgery is still largely dominated bu men.
>>
>> (surgery in the sense of cutting people open and playing around with the
>> internals).

> What other sense of "surgery" is there (that also comes with surgeons)?

In other places a surgery may be an office or classroom. I am not sure
about the use of surgeons elsewhere.


--
'Life's like a beach. And then you die.' --Small Gods

[Lewis]

In message <15drqg8guu263$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> I have no strong opinion on that specific word, although I can tell you
> that it did feel a little weird when I first learned it about 40 years
> ago, and the alternative "mainboard", which was around back then, seemed
> more serious and appropriate.

Different things though.

A motherboard is a board that takes daughter boards (we mostly call
those cards now). A main board is not.

--
Clicked "Debug" button. Program still has bugs. Wtf? - Rich Seigel

[lar3ryca]

I googled "safety plugs' australia

https://hpm.com.au/product/nursery-plugs/

[Lewis]

Other than that one is real and the other is pretty much made u by angry
white dudes who are upset when people point out they;'re being assholes.

--
I gotta call my glitter guy

[Snidely]

Ken Blake scribbled something on Thursday the 4/28/2022:

> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:43:22 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>> * Ken Blake:
>>
>>> To me, even worse than "chairperson" or "chairwoman" is "chair,"
>>> which I've heard many people say. As far as I'm concerned, a chair is
>>> something to sit on.

"And you kids get off of my lawn!"

>> I watched the TV series "The Chair" mainly because of Sandra Oh, and
>> she's not playing a piece of furniture (but "the newly appointed chair
>> of the English department at Pembroke University.")
>>
>> It's not a particularly exciting work; I don't know how it feels for
>> people themselves involved in university politics.
>>
>> The word "chair" just feels normal at this point in this context.
>
> To you. Not to me.

You don't hang out in colleges or orchestras, I take it.

>> There
>> may be other contexts where that is less the case.

-d

--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013

[Lewis]

In message <tkcl6hlm8271r5evv...@4ax.com> Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 16:09:26 +0100, Pamela
> <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>On 20:47 27 Apr 2022, Richard Heathfield said:
>>> On 27/04/2022 8:25 pm, lar3ryca wrote:

>>>> On 2022-04-27 11:28, Quinn C wrote:
>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 07:09:02 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 'Google launches "woke" language function to be more inclusive' -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/google-launches-woke-language-
>>>>>>> function-to-be-more-inclusive-3667567>
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Google is rolling out a new 'inclusive language' function that
>>>>>>> is designed to avoid the use of politically incorrect words. ...
>>>>>>> Among the words Google objects to is 'landlord' as Google
>>>>>>> considers this as not inclusive to all. It suggests the word
>>>>>>> should be changed to 'property owner' or 'proprietor' instead.
>>>>>>> Other more gender-inclusive alternatives include changing
>>>>>>> 'mankind' to 'humankind', 'policeman' to 'police officers', and
>>>>>>> replacing 'housewife' to 'stay-at-home-spouse'. The tool also
>>>>>>> objects to the technical term 'motherboard'...."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ugh! I hate all this "politically correct" stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you want to go back to stewardesses, barmaids and women doctors?
>>>>
>>>> Not necessarily, for many of that sort of thing. I am fine with
>>>> flight attendant, bartender, server, and doctor. What I don't want
>>>> is to be told that 'motherboard' is considered objectionable.
>>>

>>> I would be perfectly happy to go back to people being free to say
>>> whatever the hell they like and not be bullied and excoriated by
>>> self-appointed thought police.
>>
>>Quite so. I still struggle with "chairperson" or "chairwoman" instead
>>of "chairman" despite it being one of the early words to fall foul of
>>political correctness decades ago.


> I don't struggle with either of those terms. I just don't use them.I
> say, "chairman," which is the term I've always used and always to
> hear/read, and as far as I'm concerned says nothing about the sex of
> the person.

And you are wrong, because to many people it absolutely does and to
*everyone*, whether you admit it or not, it explicitly states that the
default is a man, and therefore o woman in that position is an exception.

> To me, even worse than "chairperson" or "chairwoman" is "chair,"
> which I've heard many people say. As far as I'm concerned, a chair is
> something to sit on.

"Chair" for and office or office holder is ancient, and current.
Rejecting it is akin to rejecting the word "table" in one of its many
meanings because you are mistakenly assuming it is something new that is
some sort of attack on you.

Good enough for Isaac Newton and Ponder Stibbons it out to be good
enough for anyone.

> I'm reminded that I also dislike the use of the word "person" instead
> of "woman." I never used to complain about woman drivers, but these
> days I sometimes complain about person drivers. When I do, my
> complaint is not really about the driver, but the substitution of the
> word "person" for "woman."

You don't even see it, do you?

When all you've had is privilege, equality feels like oppression.

--
And the three men I admire most, the father son and the holly ghost
they caught the last train for the coast...

[Lewis]

Maybe because you vehemently defend your right to stick in 1955 and
ignore the way the language is actually used? Maybe because your comfort
is more important the other people's dignity?

--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so, but where will we find an open tattoo parlor at this
time of night?"

[Lewis]

No one mentioned Pembrokeshire.

Also, this may be a shock but often TV Series are set in fictional
locations.

--
Otto: Apes don't read philosophy.
Wanda: Yes, they do Otto, they just don't understand it.

[Lewis]

In message <g5dl6h1lebsh5bg8j...@4ax.com> Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> Perhaps he thinks it should be called a "parentboard."

> I'm reminded that IBM used to (still does?) call it a "mainboard," not
> a "motherboard." I don't know why, but I wonder if political
> correctness is the reason.

Because mainboard and motherbaord are two different things, and IBM was
always more about their enterprise computers more than their personal
computers., so they may have used mainboard a bit more. The boards in the
IBM PCs were motherboards, and they accommodated plug in daughter cards.


--
Where there's a will, I want to be in it.

[Lewis]

A different search term would probably help.
"child-safety-power-outlet-plug" is in the URL slug, so searching for
images of "safety power outlet plug" comes up with quite a lot of
examples in differing varieties.

<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=+safety+power+outlet+plug&iax=images&ia=images>

--
<Athene> we all have our moments when we lose it
<Slyspy> the key is though, to conceal the evidence before the police arrive

[Peter Moylan]

Thanks to both you and Lewis. Yes, that's what I had in mind.

[Quinn C]

* Ken Blake:

> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:07:40 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
>>On 2022-04-27 16:22, Quinn C wrote:
>>> * lar3ryca:
>>>

>>>> On 2022-04-27 11:28, Quinn C wrote:
>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>>

>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 07:09:02 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 'Google launches "woke" language function to be more inclusive' -
>>>>>>> <https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/google-launches-woke-language-function-to-be-more-inclusive-3667567>
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Google is rolling out a new 'inclusive language' function that is
>>>>>>> designed to avoid the use of politically incorrect words. ... Among the
>>>>>>> words Google objects to is 'landlord' as Google considers this as not
>>>>>>> inclusive to all. It suggests the word should be changed to 'property
>>>>>>> owner' or 'proprietor' instead. Other more gender-inclusive alternatives
>>>>>>> include changing 'mankind' to 'humankind', 'policeman' to 'police
>>>>>>> officers', and replacing 'housewife' to 'stay-at-home-spouse'. The tool
>>>>>>> also objects to the technical term 'motherboard'...."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ugh! I hate all this "politically correct" stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you want to go back to stewardesses, barmaids and women doctors?
>>>>
>>>> Not necessarily, for many of that sort of thing. I am fine with flight
>>>> attendant, bartender, server, and doctor. What I don't want is to be
>>>> told that 'motherboard' is considered objectionable.
>>>>

>>>> Keep this crap up and I will go back to steward and stewardess.
>>>>
>>>>> It's just a continuation of a trend that has been happening in English
>>>>> for decades.
>>>>
>>>> Which appears to be going WAY too far these days.
>>>
>>> Sure, because where the world was when one was 20 is always the exact
>>> right amount. 10 years earlier, it was the dark ages, and 10 years
>>> later, the fall of civilization.
>>
>>You presume too much.
>>Am I to believe that you think 'motherboard' should be relegated to the
>>status of 'politically unacceptable'?
>

> Perhaps he thinks it should be called a "parentboard."

I was genuinely confused as to who was meant here. From the structure of
the dialog, the best candidate is a reference to me, but apart from "he"
not matching, I didn't actually comment on the word "motherboard".

> I'm reminded that IBM used to (still does?) call it a "mainboard," not
> a "motherboard." I don't know why, but I wonder if political
> correctness is the reason.

I doubt it. With IBM (and some similar companies), I'd suspect it's
"that's what we've always called it and we won't change just to be like
everyone else."

--
If you tell the person the etymology of "fish," they’ll have good
facts for a day. If you teach them to look up the etymology of the
word "fish," they’ll have facts for a lifetime.
-- Lauren Gawne

[Peter Moylan]

On 29/04/22 03:53, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> On 28-Apr-22 13:40, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Lewis:
>>
>>> Not surprising in the "A *woman* surgeon" but rather in the
>>> sense that believe surgery is still largely dominated bu men.
>>>
>>> (surgery in the sense of cutting people open and playing around
>>> with the internals).
>>
>> What other sense of "surgery" is there (that also comes with
>> surgeons)?
>>

> In the UK, the building where GPs ply their trade is routinely
> called "The Surgery". They may or may not do minor surgery on the
> premises.

That terminology is also standard in Australia.

When I recently mentioned to my GP that I seemed to have a stubborn
splinter buried below the surface of the skin, her first reaction was to
get out her scalpel. In the end she didn't cut me, but that sort of
minor surgery is a common enough part of what GPs do.

In the town where I grew up, the local hospital wasn't big enough to
have a resident doctor. Instead, a local GP did hospital rounds once a
week. That probably included things like cutting out the occasional
appendix. So he did surgery at the hospital, but the consulting room at
his own practice was also called his surgery.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 02:06:07 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>In message <gsaxy6jn...@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>> * Lewis:
>
>>> Not surprising in the "A *woman* surgeon" but rather in the sense that
>>> believe surgery is still largely dominated bu men.
>>>
>>> (surgery in the sense of cutting people open and playing around with the
>>> internals).
>
>> What other sense of "surgery" is there (that also comes with surgeons)?
>
>In other places a surgery may be an office or classroom. I am not sure
>about the use of surgeons elsewhere.

Some dentists are surgeons.
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[charles]

In article <slrnt6mjfn....@zephyrus.local>,

Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
> In message <QBAaK.662027$7F2.2...@fx12.iad> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> > On 28-Apr-22 17:43, Quinn C wrote:
> >> * Ken Blake:
> >>
> >>> To me, even worse than "chairperson" or "chairwoman" is "chair,"
> >>> which I've heard many people say. As far as I'm concerned, a chair is
> >>> something to sit on.

> > If you want something to sit on, try a committee.
> >>
> >> I watched the TV series "The Chair" mainly because of Sandra Oh, and
> >> she's not playing a piece of furniture (but "the newly appointed chair
> >> of the English department at Pembroke University.")

> > ?? The county town of Pembrokeshire has a population of around 7,500.
> > It's a bit too small to have its own university.

> No one mentioned Pembrokeshire.

> Also, this may be a shock but often TV Series are set in fictional
> locations.

that will comeas a shock to many people.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Hibou]

Le 28/04/2022 à 05:00, lar3ryca a écrit :
>
> [...] not long afterwards, I met someone who, while not using those particular
> words, insisted on removing the syllable 'man' from pretty much
> everything she said.

I assume the word 'woman' was an exception. If 'man' is removed, that
leaves 'wo', which is unsatisfying. And if the 'man' part is replaced
with 'woman', that leads to infinite recursion (woman, wowoman,
wowowoman...).

[CDB]

On 4/28/2022 11:36 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Richard Heathfield said:

>>> lar3ryca wrote:
>>>> Quinn C wrote:
>>>>> * Ken Blake:

>>>>>> Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:

>>>>>>> 'Google launches "woke" language function to be more
>>>>>>> inclusive' -

>>>>>>> <https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/google-launches-woke-language-
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
function-to-be-more-inclusive-3667567>

>>>>>>> "Google is rolling out a new 'inclusive language'
>>>>>>> function that is designed to avoid the use of politically
>>>>>>> incorrect words. ... Among the words Google objects to is
>>>>>>> 'landlord' as Google considers this as not inclusive to
>>>>>>> all. It suggests the word should be changed to 'property
>>>>>>> owner' or 'proprietor' instead. Other more
>>>>>>> gender-inclusive alternatives include changing 'mankind'
>>>>>>> to 'humankind', 'policeman' to 'police officers', and
>>>>>>> replacing 'housewife' to 'stay-at-home-spouse'. The tool
>>>>>>> also objects to the technical term 'motherboard'...."

>>>>>> Ugh! I hate all this "politically correct" stuff.

>>>>> Do you want to go back to stewardesses, barmaids and women
>>>>> doctors?

>>>> Not necessarily, for many of that sort of thing. I am fine
>>>> with flight attendant, bartender, server, and doctor. What I
>>>> don't want is to be told that 'motherboard' is considered
>>>> objectionable.

>>> I would be perfectly happy to go back to people being free to
>>> say whatever the hell they like and not be bullied and excoriated
>>> by self-appointed thought police.

>> Quite so. I still struggle with "chairperson" or "chairwoman"
>> instead of "chairman" despite it being one of the early words to
>> fall foul of political correctness decades ago.

> I don't struggle with either of those terms. I just don't use them.I
> say, "chairman," which is the term I've always used and always to
> hear/read, and as far as I'm concerned says nothing about the sex of
> the person.

> To me, even worse than "chairperson" or "chairwoman" is "chair,"
> which I've heard many people say. As far as I'm concerned, a chair
> is something to sit on.

It can be used to mean the function: an appeal to the Chair.

I sat next to quite a few of them before I retired, and my usage
depended on their preference. If one of them wanted to be Madame Chair,
then that's what she was.

[Paul Wolff]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022, at 10:14:30, Hibou posted:

If it's cut short, one's then faced with another problem: a wo-wo is a
dog, at least in child-speak.
--
Paul

[Quinn C]

* charles:

Maybe it will be a relief to the people in Midsomer.

[Peter T. Daniels]

"Dummy" in some dialects means 'pacifier' -- the little thing that babies
suck in preference to their thumbs -- see Maggie Simpson -- which is
also apparently called a "binky" these days.

We'd say something like "socket protector," and we'd use it while
"childproofing" the house.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 10:15:02 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> Ken Blake scribbled something on Thursday the 4/28/2022:
> > On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:43:22 -0400, Quinn C
> > <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> >> The word "chair" just feels normal at this point in this context.
> > To you. Not to me.
>
> You don't hang out in colleges or orchestras, I take it.
>
> >> There
> >> may be other contexts where that is less the case.
>
> -d

:-) The orchestra one is a bit different ... "first chairman of the
second violins"? In AmE, the full version of "first chair first violin"
is either "concertmistress" or "concertmaster" (if there's a non-
gendered version, I haven't heard it) but in BrE, "leader."

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 11:10:08 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Ken Blake:
> > On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:07:40 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:
> >>On 2022-04-27 16:22, Quinn C wrote:
> >>> * lar3ryca:
> >>>> On 2022-04-27 11:28, Quinn C wrote:
> >>>>> * Ken Blake:
> >>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 07:09:02 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:

> >>>>>>> 'Google launches "woke" language function to be more inclusive' -
> >>>>>>> <https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/google-launches-woke-language-function-to-be-more-inclusive-3667567>

> >>>>>>> "Google is rolling out a new 'inclusive language' function that is
> >>>>>>> designed to avoid the use of politically incorrect words. ... Among the
> >>>>>>> words Google objects to is 'landlord' as Google considers this as not
> >>>>>>> inclusive to all. It suggests the word should be changed to 'property
> >>>>>>> owner' or 'proprietor' instead. Other more gender-inclusive alternatives
> >>>>>>> include changing 'mankind' to 'humankind', 'policeman' to 'police

******

> >>>>>>> officers', and replacing 'housewife' to 'stay-at-home-spouse'. The tool
> >>>>>>> also objects to the technical term 'motherboard'...."

******

> >>>>>> Ugh! I hate all this "politically correct" stuff.
> >>>>> Do you want to go back to stewardesses, barmaids and women doctors?
> >>>> Not necessarily, for many of that sort of thing. I am fine with flight
> >>>> attendant, bartender, server, and doctor. What I don't want is to be
> >>>> told that 'motherboard' is considered objectionable.
> >>>> Keep this crap up and I will go back to steward and stewardess.
> >>>>> It's just a continuation of a trend that has been happening in English
> >>>>> for decades.
> >>>> Which appears to be going WAY too far these days.
> >>> Sure, because where the world was when one was 20 is always the exact
> >>> right amount. 10 years earlier, it was the dark ages, and 10 years
> >>> later, the fall of civilization.
> >>You presume too much.
> >>Am I to believe that you think 'motherboard' should be relegated to the
> >>status of 'politically unacceptable'?
> > Perhaps he thinks it should be called a "parentboard."
>
> I was genuinely confused as to who was meant here. From the structure of
> the dialog, the best candidate is a reference to me, but apart from "he"
> not matching, I didn't actually comment on the word "motherboard".

Good grief. "He" is obviously the Google "tool" that Hibou is complaining about.
Asterisked above.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 12:53:14 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 02:06:07 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
> <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
> >In message <gsaxy6jn...@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> >> * Lewis:

> >>> Not surprising in the "A *woman* surgeon" but rather in the sense that
> >>> believe surgery is still largely dominated bu men.
> >>> (surgery in the sense of cutting people open and playing around with the
> >>> internals).
> >> What other sense of "surgery" is there (that also comes with surgeons)?
> >In other places a surgery may be an office or classroom. I am not sure
> >about the use of surgeons elsewhere.
>
> Some dentists are surgeons.

Aren't they all -- the US ones at least -- D.D.S.? (Though too many of them
don't do extractions.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

That wo- started out as wif-.

[charles]

In article <706df194-7d7f-4782...@googlegroups.com>,

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 10:15:02 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Ken Blake scribbled something on Thursday the 4/28/2022:
> > > On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:43:22 -0400, Quinn C
> > > <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> > >> The word "chair" just feels normal at this point in this context.
> > > To you. Not to me.
> >
> > You don't hang out in colleges or orchestras, I take it.
> >
> > >> There
> > >> may be other contexts where that is less the case.
> >
> > -d

> :-) The orchestra one is a bit different ... "first chairman of the
> second violins"? In AmE, the full version of "first chair first violin"

Here it's cslleed "first desk"

> is either "concertmistress" or "concertmaster" (if there's a non-
> gendered version, I haven't heard it) but in BrE, "leader."

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 10:12:12 AM UTC-4, charles wrote:
> In article <706df194-7d7f-4782...@googlegroups.com>,
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 10:15:02 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Ken Blake scribbled something on Thursday the 4/28/2022:
> > > > On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:43:22 -0400, Quinn C
> > > > <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> > > >> The word "chair" just feels normal at this point in this context.
> > > > To you. Not to me.
> > > You don't hang out in colleges or orchestras, I take it.
> > > >> There
> > > >> may be other contexts where that is less the case.
> > > -d
> > :-) The orchestra one is a bit different ... "first chairman of the
> > second violins"? In AmE, the full version of "first chair first violin"
>
> Here it's cslleed "first desk"

Ours have music stands rather than desks.

Though the young'uns are now using tablets with a display
and they "turn pages" with a pedal. (Not an option for pianists,
and organ music is printed in a format not amenable to
display on a tablet.)

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

That's another wrong use of "he", then, which wasn't even on my radar. I
hear such things from non-native speakers in whose language the word for
"tool" has a gender.

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

I think "concertmaster" is considered gender-neutral by many. Would you
call a woman "a mistress at her craft"?

59% of the violin sections of big American orchestras is women, but only
18% of those in the concertmaster role are.

[charles]

In article <563c3e39-dd13-4c72...@googlegroups.com>, Peter

T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 10:12:12 AM UTC-4, charles wrote:
> > In article <706df194-7d7f-4782...@googlegroups.com>, Peter T. Daniels
> > <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 10:15:02 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com
> > > wrote:
> > > > Ken Blake scribbled something on Thursday the 4/28/2022:
> > > > > On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:43:22 -0400, Quinn C
> > > > > <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> > > > >> The word "chair" just feels normal at this point in this
> > > > >> context.
> > > > > To you. Not to me.
> > > > You don't hang out in colleges or orchestras, I take it.
> > > > >> There may be other contexts where that is less the case.
> > > > -d
> > > :-) The orchestra one is a bit different ... "first chairman of the
> > > second violins"? In AmE, the full version of "first chair first
> > > violin"
> >
> > Here it's cslleed "first desk"

> Ours have music stands rather than desks.

So do ours,

> Though the young'uns are now using tablets with a display

You don't need to be young to use a tablet for music. I have one - it saves
carrying a whole bag of scores and you don't have to worry about the venue
lighting. There are now 5 in our U3A group who use tablets

> and they "turn pages" with a pedal. (Not an option for pianists,

I've seen a pianist use one - but can also turn my hand. Pedal gets
confusing with repeats going over page breaks

> and organ music is printed in a format not amenable to display on a
> tablet.)

> > > is either "concertmistress" or "concertmaster" (if there's a non-
> > > gendered version, I haven't heard it) but in BrE, "leader."

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:45:58 -0400, Quinn C

<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Peter T. Daniels:
>
>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 10:15:02 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Ken Blake scribbled something on Thursday the 4/28/2022:
>>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:43:22 -0400, Quinn C
>>>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>>>>> The word "chair" just feels normal at this point in this context.
>>>> To you. Not to me.
>>>
>>> You don't hang out in colleges or orchestras, I take it.
>>>
>>>>> There
>>>>> may be other contexts where that is less the case.
>>>
>>> -d
>>
>> :-) The orchestra one is a bit different ... "first chairman of the
>> second violins"? In AmE, the full version of "first chair first violin"
>> is either "concertmistress" or "concertmaster" (if there's a non-
>> gendered version, I haven't heard it) but in BrE, "leader."
>
>I think "concertmaster" is considered gender-neutral by many.

It is to me, but I consider almost all such words to be sex-neutral.

>Would you
>call a woman "a mistress at her craft"?

In chess there are Grandmasters and Woman Grandmasters. although I
think men and women should all be ranked on the same scale, with only
a single title used.

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 16:31:25 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
wrote:

>In article <563c3e39-dd13-4c72...@googlegroups.com>, Peter
>T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 10:12:12 AM UTC-4, charles wrote:
>> > In article <706df194-7d7f-4782...@googlegroups.com>, Peter T. Daniels
>> > <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> > > On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 10:15:02 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com
>> > > wrote:
>> > > > Ken Blake scribbled something on Thursday the 4/28/2022:
>> > > > > On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:43:22 -0400, Quinn C
>> > > > > <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>> > > > >> The word "chair" just feels normal at this point in this
>> > > > >> context.
>> > > > > To you. Not to me.
>> > > > You don't hang out in colleges or orchestras, I take it.
>> > > > >> There may be other contexts where that is less the case.
>> > > > -d
>> > > :-) The orchestra one is a bit different ... "first chairman of the
>> > > second violins"? In AmE, the full version of "first chair first
>> > > violin"
>> >
>> > Here it's cslleed "first desk"
>
>> Ours have music stands rather than desks.
>
>So do ours,
>
>> Though the young'uns are now using tablets with a display
>
>You don't need to be young to use a tablet for music.

Even pros use them. I've attended several David Russell guitar
concerts where I saw him use one.

[lar3ryca]

That's why I qualified it with 'pretty much everything'.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Interactive computer programs are very often personified. Siri and Alexa
are "she" because they've been given female voices. HAL is male because
he has a male voice. A friend o' mine calls his car GPS "Nancy" even when
he sets it to a male voice. A "tool" is male because tools are typically used
in traditionally male occupations and typically work by enhancing the
physical strength of the operator, and strength is a typically male attribute
-- as the fuss over transwomen in women's sports shows.

But the user of "he" is an octogenarian-going-on-120 who has repeatedly
enunciated his refusal to use the English of the 21st century (who probably
"killfiled" you months or years ago), so what are you going to do.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 10:46:06 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 10:15:02 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Ken Blake scribbled something on Thursday the 4/28/2022:
> >>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:43:22 -0400, Quinn C
> >>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> >
> >>>> The word "chair" just feels normal at this point in this context.
> >>> To you. Not to me.
> >>
> >> You don't hang out in colleges or orchestras, I take it.
> >>
> >>>> There
> >>>> may be other contexts where that is less the case.
> >>
> >> -d
> >
> > :-) The orchestra one is a bit different ... "first chairman of the
> > second violins"? In AmE, the full version of "first chair first violin"
> > is either "concertmistress" or "concertmaster" (if there's a non-
> > gendered version, I haven't heard it) but in BrE, "leader."
> I think "concertmaster" is considered gender-neutral by many. Would you
> call a woman "a mistress at her craft"?

Probably -- but "concertmistress" certainly does regularly occur.

> 59% of the violin sections of big American orchestras is women, but only
> 18% of those in the concertmaster role are.

It has a lot to do with seniority. Anyone who can be in a major symphony
orchestra is fully capable of performing the miscellaneous brief solos
that are the concertmaster/mistress's principal raison d'etre. (They
probably also decree the bowing, but that got set decades ago in the
standard repertoire.)

Very rarely, one might have to take over if something happens to the
conductor, but they can't really audition for that!

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

But the general meaning of "dummy", a thing that has the shape of
something but not the function, as in test crash dummy or dummy button,
applies here.

One explanation for the pacifier meaning is as a shortening of "dummy
teat".

--
- It's the title search for the Rachel property.
Guess who owns it?
- Tell me it's not that bastard Donald Trump.
-- Gilmore Girls, S02E08 (2001)

[Snidely]

Hibou suggested that ...

"womben-kind"

/dps

--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean

[Quinn C]

* Snidely:

> Hibou suggested that ...
>> Le 28/04/2022 à 05:00, lar3ryca a écrit :
>>>
>>> [...] not long afterwards, I met someone who, while not using those
>>> particular words, insisted on removing the syllable 'man' from pretty much
>>> everything she said.
>>
>> I assume the word 'woman' was an exception. If 'man' is removed, that leaves
>> 'wo', which is unsatisfying. And if the 'man' part is replaced with 'woman',
>> that leads to infinite recursion (woman, wowoman, wowowoman...).
>
> "womben-kind"

Biological essentialist!

--
No ... it's a good thing that one of the most famous bigots
in the country [now supports Bernie].
-- Page Kreisman, talking about Joe Rogan