General rule for alphabetizing titles with Mr, Mrs, Dr, St, numbers, etc?

[Tak To]

Also,
M Mme Mlle Ste ...
L' Le La Les El Los Las Il Lo ...

(Film titles are often untranslated.)

Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[Don Phillipson]

"Tak To" <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote in message
news:ll5d8k$u1f$1...@dont-email.me...

> Also,
> M Mme Mlle Ste ...
> L' Le La Les El Los Las Il Lo ...
>
> (Film titles are often untranslated.)

There are no general rules. Style rules for titles (abbreviations,
punctuation etc.) are likely to be different for each medium (e.g.
books, magazines, internet web sites) and are found in style
manuals, e.g. Chicago Manual of Style.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Richard Tobin]

In article <ll5qnu$1jv$1...@news.albasani.net>,

Don Phillipson <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:

>There are no general rules. Style rules for titles (abbreviations,
>punctuation etc.) are likely to be different for each medium (e.g.
>books, magazines, internet web sites) and are found in style
>manuals, e.g. Chicago Manual of Style.

They also vary with country. For example, in a country where some name
prefix like "de" or "van" is common, it may be customary to ignore the
prefix when alphabetizing, but when the same names appear in an English
publication the prefix is usually treated as part of the name.

-- Richard

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

If we're talking about an index, then unless there are a large number
of such entries (in which case one needs to define a system and follow
it) the simplest and best for most readers is to index both forms.
Yesterday I wanted to include Soraya de Chadarevian in an index.
Looking at her own publications I saw that she herself regards the "de"
as part of the surname, but it's not obvious that every reader will
assume that, so I put separate entries for "de Chadarevian, Soraya" and
for "Chadarevian, Soraya de". Adding one possibly unnecessary line to
an index is a trivial addition to the amount of space needed (unless it
pushes the whole index onto another page). Of course, if the two
entries end up within a couple of lines of other, as they well might
with "Doctor…" and "Dr...", then there is not much point in putting
both.

There are many other complications to be considered, like the fact that
French "de" and Dutch "de" are different words with different meanings,
and the various countries in which names beginning with "van" are
common (The Netherlands, Belgium, northern France, parts of the USA,
South Africa) handle them differently. Satisfying everyone is close to
impossible.

--
athel

[J. J. Lodder]

In countries where the 'van' is common (like NL)
the rules also differ with the kind of publication.

A further complication is some people have double names
with a van inside, like Karel Glastra van Loon.
Glastra van Loon, Karel
is the correct alphabetisation by family name,
but computers often make
Loon, Karel Glastra van
out of it.

All very bad for the citation score,

Jan

[Jerry Friedman]

On 5/16/14 10:09 AM, Tak To wrote:
> Also,
> M Mme Mlle Ste ...
> L' Le La Les El Los Las Il Lo ...
>
> (Film titles are often untranslated.)

Maybe it depends on what you're doing and who's going to use it. Are
you just alphabetizing your movie collection?

It may be quixotic of me to follow what I believe to be tradition and
alphabetize "Mc" as if it were "Mac" on my grade spreadsheet, when the
college treats that letter sequence as any other. I reversed two grades
last semester because of that.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 17 May 2014 14:19:00 +0200, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
wrote:

Here, as I may bhave mentioned vefore, we had a problem with Janse van
Rensburg and Jansen van Rensburg.

There are plenty of van Rensburgs indexed under v, but these appear under J.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, May 17, 2014 1:38:52 PM UTC-4, Lewis wrote:
> In message <ll5d8k$u1f$1...@dont-email.me>

> Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:

> > M Mme Mlle Ste ...
> > L' Le La Les El Los Las Il Lo ...
>

> I ignore them all. Mr Smith Goes to Washington is under S,

So it wouldn't be found right after *Mister Roberts*? Bizarre.

[Mark Brader]

Athel Cornish-Bowden:

> If we're talking about an index, then unless there are a large number
> of such entries (in which case one needs to define a system and follow
> it) the simplest and best for most readers is to index both forms.

> Yesterday I wanted to include Soraya de Chadarevian in an index...
> ... I put separate entries for "de Chadarevian, Soraya" and

> for "Chadarevian, Soraya de".

Good decision.
--
Mark Brader | "I do have an idea ... based on the quite obvious fact
Toronto | that the number two is ridiculous and can't exist."
m...@vex.net | -- Ben Denison (Isaac Asimov, "The Gods Themselves")

[David Kleinecke]

It amuses me that Huffpost lists Paul Krugman in their bloggers
under "P". That is not what most people in the US expect.

[Robert Bannister]

Closer to home, it would seem that every index including "Mac" and "Mc"
names alphabetises them differently. Sometimes strictly alphabetically,
sometimes with all the Mac/Mc names at an apparently random position
before the Ms, amid the MAs or after all the Ms - and sometimes with Mac
and Mc separate. Given this with British names, the chances of a
sensible approach to foreign names seems unlikely.

--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 18 May 2014 10:50:21 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com>
wrote:

>Closer to home, it would seem that every index including "Mac" and "Mc"
>names alphabetises them differently. Sometimes strictly alphabetically,
>sometimes with all the Mac/Mc names at an apparently random position
>before the Ms, amid the MAs or after all the Ms - and sometimes with Mac
>and Mc separate. Given this with British names, the chances of a
>sensible approach to foreign names seems unlikely.

And that leads to difficulty with names like Machin, which is not a Mac name
but a Mach name.

[John Varela]

On Fri, 16 May 2014 16:09:55 UTC, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>
wrote:

> Also,
> M Mme Mlle Ste ...
> L' Le La Les El Los Las Il Lo ...

There's a simple solution that my wife recently encountered in some
magazine of hers. A home decorator had organized all the client's
books by arranging them in the order of the color of their bindings.

--
John Varela

[Jerry Friedman]

A friend of mine in grad school did that with his physics books, because
he was at least as likely to remember the color as the author or title.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Snidely]

On Sunday, Jerry Friedman exclaimed wildly:

Orange (Wheeler, I believe)

/dps "Math was gold"

--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2014-05-20 06:05:08 +0000, Snidely said:

> On Sunday, Jerry Friedman exclaimed wildly:
>> On 5/18/14 5:03 PM, John Varela wrote:
>>> On Fri, 16 May 2014 16:09:55 UTC, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also,
>>>> M Mme Mlle Ste ...
>>>> L' Le La Les El Los Las Il Lo ...
>>>
>>> There's a simple solution that my wife recently encountered in some
>>> magazine of hers. A home decorator had organized all the client's
>>> books by arranging them in the order of the color of their bindings.
>>
>> A friend of mine in grad school did that with his physics books,
>> because he was at least as likely to remember the color as the author
>> or title.
>
> Orange (Wheeler, I believe)
>
> /dps "Math was gold"

IUPAC have become very systematic with their colours. Everybody refers
to the recommendations on physical chemistry as "The Green Book", and
likewise for organic (blue) and inorganic (red). When they brought out
an encyclopaedia of chemical terminology it had a gold cover, and is,
of course, known as "The Gold Book" -- that choice was dictated by the
fact that its first ediror was Victor Gold.


--
athel

[LFS]

On 20/05/2014 07:46, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

>
> IUPAC have become very systematic with their colours. Everybody refers
> to the recommendations on physical chemistry as "The Green Book", and
> likewise for organic (blue) and inorganic (red). When they brought out
> an encyclopaedia of chemical terminology it had a gold cover, and is, of
> course, known as "The Gold Book" -- that choice was dictated by the fact
> that its first ediror was Victor Gold.
>
>

Reminds me of a report published by a committee chaired by Sir Ron
Dearing in the 1980s. The cover design was the word "red" in white
letters repeated over a red background. When I met one of the people
involved I enquired about this and was told that Sir Ron had insisted on
this: his initials were RED.

--
Laura (emulate St George for email)

[Mike L]

I can't recall a stiplet of why I remember that report's appearance;
but remember it I do.

--
Mike.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2014-05-18 06:21:58 +0000, Steve Hayes said:

> On Sun, 18 May 2014 10:50:21 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Closer to home, it would seem that every index including "Mac" and "Mc"
>> names alphabetises them differently. Sometimes strictly alphabetically,
>> sometimes with all the Mac/Mc names at an apparently random position
>> before the Ms, amid the MAs or after all the Ms - and sometimes with Mac
>> and Mc separate. Given this with British names, the chances of a
>> sensible approach to foreign names seems unlikely.
>
> And that leads to difficulty with names like Machin, which is not a Mac name
> but a Mach name.

I learned today that the problem works the other way as well. (I knew
the name Machin many years ago because I was at school with a Machin.)
In a lecture I was attending today the speaker acknowledged
collaboration with someone called Mchaourab. Very obviously not a Mac
name (it's actually Lebanese), but how would you ensure that a
computer-based system wouldn't treat it like one?

--
athel

[spuorg...@gowanhill.com]

Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> In a lecture I was attending today the speaker acknowledged
> collaboration with someone called Mchaourab. Very obviously not a Mac
> name (it's actually Lebanese), but how would you ensure that a
> computer-based system wouldn't treat it like one?

Systems for indexers usually have the option to put in a 'sort as' entry, to over-ride the default sortation.

To use an example already given, "de Chadarevian, Soreya" SORT AS "Chadarevian, Soreya" would produce:

Chadappa, John
de Chadarevian, Soreya
Chadband, Richard

where the prefix is part of the surname but is ignored for sorting.

Scottish telephone directories had special instructions on "which Mac" to explain how names were sorted; Welsh directories had "Which Jones" due to the large number of Joneses.

Owain

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:17:23 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> I learned today that the problem works the other way as well. (I knew
> the name Machin many years ago because I was at school with a Machin.)
> In a lecture I was attending today the speaker acknowledged
> collaboration with someone called Mchaourab. Very obviously not a Mac
> name (it's actually Lebanese), but how would you ensure that a
> computer-based system wouldn't treat it like one?

You could begin by cursing the French administration of Liban, which
gave rise to such roman-script monstrosities, and then transliterate
the Arabic into something more reasonable. (I don't even see what the
-aou- is supposed to represent. The M- could be any of the prefixes
ma-, mi-, or mu-, and the root is clearly SH R B ('drink', as seen
in _sherbet_ and _sorbet_, and in the Arabic word for smoking tobacco),
but there's no way to insert either an `ayn or an 'alif between the
a and the ou to come up with a possible Arabic word form.)

[Robert Bannister]

On 21/05/2014 8:13 pm, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:17:23 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> I learned today that the problem works the other way as well. (I knew
>> the name Machin many years ago because I was at school with a Machin.)
>> In a lecture I was attending today the speaker acknowledged
>> collaboration with someone called Mchaourab. Very obviously not a Mac
>> name (it's actually Lebanese), but how would you ensure that a
>> computer-based system wouldn't treat it like one?
>
> You could begin by cursing the French administration of Liban, which
> gave rise to such roman-script monstrosities, and then transliterate
> the Arabic into something more reasonable. (I don't even see what the
> -aou- is supposed to represent.

"aou" is French for our "ow" (in "cow") sound.

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 21 May 2014 04:42:39 -0700 (PDT), spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:

>Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> In a lecture I was attending today the speaker acknowledged
>> collaboration with someone called Mchaourab. Very obviously not a Mac
>> name (it's actually Lebanese), but how would you ensure that a
>> computer-based system wouldn't treat it like one?
>
>Systems for indexers usually have the option to put in a 'sort as' entry, to over-ride the default sortation.
>
>To use an example already given, "de Chadarevian, Soreya" SORT AS "Chadarevian, Soreya" would produce:
>
>Chadappa, John
>de Chadarevian, Soreya
>Chadband, Richard
>
>where the prefix is part of the surname but is ignored for sorting.

Which would be the most confusing system of all.

It would be better to have

de Chadarevian, Soreya, see Chadarevian, Soreya de

with two entries.

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 21 May 2014 13:49:52 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>Teach the computer that case counts and write Mc/Mac names in camel
>case?

Tell that to Macmillan the publishers.

[Peter T. Daniels]

I don't think there's a _mVQawTaL_ form in Arabic (i.e. mVSHawRaB).

(I seem to have put the Fischer grammar back on the shelf, and I CBA
to go and get it.)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2014-05-22 03:37:19 +0000, Steve Hayes said:

> On Wed, 21 May 2014 04:42:39 -0700 (PDT), spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
>
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> In a lecture I was attending today the speaker acknowledged
>>> collaboration with someone called Mchaourab. Very obviously not a Mac
>>> name (it's actually Lebanese), but how would you ensure that a
>>> computer-based system wouldn't treat it like one?
>>
>> Systems for indexers usually have the option to put in a 'sort as'
>> entry, to over-ride the default sortation.
>>
>> To use an example already given, "de Chadarevian, Soreya" SORT AS
>> "Chadarevian, Soreya" would produce:
>>
>> Chadappa, John
>> de Chadarevian, Soreya
>> Chadband, Richard
>>
>> where the prefix is part of the surname but is ignored for sorting.
>
> Which would be the most confusing system of all.
>
> It would be better to have
>
> de Chadarevian, Soreya, see Chadarevian, Soreya de
>
> with two entries.

I'm not sure that there is much point in having "see …" if there are
two entries. Why not just let readers find the information they want in
the way they find most natural. Anyway, two entries are what I decided
to have (but spelling "Soraya" correctly).
--
athel

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Of course. I'm surprised that anyone with the slightest familiarity
with the ordinary French spelling of foreign (especially Arab) names
wouldn't know that. In any case, "more reasonable" for whom? For
monoglot Americans, or, as seems more relevant in this case, for French
speakers? Finally, I don't see how cursing the French administration
would help as a solution to the problem posed.
--
athel

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, May 22, 2014 2:35:58 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2014-05-22 01:42:55 +0000, Robert Bannister said:
> > On 21/05/2014 8:13 pm, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:17:23 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> >>> I learned today that the problem works the other way as well. (I knew
> >>> the name Machin many years ago because I was at school with a Machin.)
> >>> In a lecture I was attending today the speaker acknowledged
> >>> collaboration with someone called Mchaourab. Very obviously not a Mac
> >>> name (it's actually Lebanese), but how would you ensure that a
> >>> computer-based system wouldn't treat it like one?
> >> You could begin by cursing the French administration of Liban, which
> >> gave rise to such roman-script monstrosities, and then transliterate
> >> the Arabic into something more reasonable. (I don't even see what the
> >> -aou- is supposed to represent.
> > "aou" is French for our "ow" (in "cow") sound.
>
> Of course. I'm surprised that anyone with the slightest familiarity
> with the ordinary French spelling of foreign (especially Arab) names
> wouldn't know that. In any case, "more reasonable" for whom? For
> monoglot Americans,

For people familiar with Arabic.

> or, as seems more relevant in this case, for French
> speakers? Finally, I don't see how cursing the French administration
> would help as a solution to the problem posed.

What about the M problem? Only in French is و transiterated <ou>.

[Peter Moylan]

On 21/05/14 21:42, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> In a lecture I was attending today the speaker acknowledged
>> collaboration with someone called Mchaourab. Very obviously not a Mac
>> name (it's actually Lebanese), but how would you ensure that a
>> computer-based system wouldn't treat it like one?
>
> Systems for indexers usually have the option to put in a 'sort as' entry, to over-ride the default sortation.

The birth of a new word! I like it.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Mark Brader]

"Owain":

> > Systems for indexers usually have the option to put in a 'sort as'
> > entry, to over-ride the default sortation.

Peter Moylan:

> The birth of a new word! I like it.

Well, the usual term in my experience is "sorting key". Oh, you were
talking about "sortation". Sorry, Canada Post was using it back in
the 20th century. As you may know, Canadian postal codes are like
British ones only different, and consist of two parts separated by
a space. Well, although it isn't used very much, the first part
has its own name. In recent years the only term I've seen for this
3-character part is the "area code", but there was a time when it
was called a "forward sortation area" (or FSA for short).
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Don't be silly -- send it to Canada"
m...@vex.net -- British postal worker

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Thu, 22 May 2014 22:59:51 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>"Owain":
>> > Systems for indexers usually have the option to put in a 'sort as'
>> > entry, to over-ride the default sortation.
>
>Peter Moylan:
>> The birth of a new word! I like it.
>
>Well, the usual term in my experience is "sorting key". Oh, you were
>talking about "sortation". Sorry, Canada Post was using it back in
>the 20th century. As you may know, Canadian postal codes are like
>British ones only different, and consist of two parts separated by
>a space. Well, although it isn't used very much, the first part
>has its own name. In recent years the only term I've seen for this
>3-character part is the "area code", but there was a time when it
>was called a "forward sortation area" (or FSA for short).

Also:
http://www.ehow.com/facts_7214416_sortation-center_.html

What Is a Sortation Center?

Sortation center is term used by some companies to describe a
location where letters and packages are sorted by zip code and
sometimes size, date sent and contents. This type of facility is
also called a sorting center.

Those in the UK are Sortation Centres.

http://www.apc-overnight.com/contact.php

http://jobview.monster.co.uk/Goods-Out-Sortation-Team-Leader-Leicester-MID-134349278.aspx

Goods Out & Sortation Team Leader
About the Job

This is a fantastic opportunity for a Goods Out & Sortation Team
Leader to join a leading retail distribution company ...

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Mike L]

These anomalies can be either irritating or amusing, according to the
situation. Libya has a place called "Giarabub" on English maps,
because it was how the Italians tried to transliterate the real name,
which is "Jaghbub". Not sure if French still recognises a country
called "Arabie S�oudite" resulting, it seems, from some
English-speaker's incompetent pronunciation of "Sa'udi", or maybe an
innocent Frenchman's answer to a local offical's "How do the French
write the sound of the English 'a'?"

Churchill, in _My Early Life_ (fine book) commented on the confusion
arising when British officialdom adopted a reformed Romanised spelling
of Indian words. Not enough users understood that the English vowels
themselves would have to be adapted to a "continental" style. The
result was that locals who used to understand perfectly were now
baffled by the Brits' "outlandish pronunciation".

The confusion survives in patches, often twisted back on itself. The
horrible institution "sati" is still often spelt "suttee" in the
obsolete style, but some well-meaning people pronounce it "sooty": not
sure that Harry H. Corbett would have approved. I once knew a Mrs
Abdullah who even herself pronounced her name "Abdoollah" - I assume
she'd just given up.

--
Mike.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, May 23, 2014 5:49:51 PM UTC-4, Mike L wrote:

> These anomalies can be either irritating or amusing, according to the
> situation. Libya has a place called "Giarabub" on English maps,
> because it was how the Italians tried to transliterate the real name,
> which is "Jaghbub". Not sure if French still recognises a country

> called "Arabie S�oudite" resulting, it seems, from some

> English-speaker's incompetent pronunciation of "Sa'udi", or maybe an
> innocent Frenchman's answer to a local offical's "How do the French
> write the sound of the English 'a'?"
> Churchill, in _My Early Life_ (fine book) commented on the confusion
> arising when British officialdom adopted a reformed Romanised spelling
> of Indian words. Not enough users understood that the English vowels
> themselves would have to be adapted to a "continental" style. The
> result was that locals who used to understand perfectly were now
> baffled by the Brits' "outlandish pronunciation".
> The confusion survives in patches, often twisted back on itself. The
> horrible institution "sati" is still often spelt "suttee" in the
> obsolete style, but some well-meaning people pronounce it "sooty": not
> sure that Harry H. Corbett would have approved. I once knew a Mrs
> Abdullah who even herself pronounced her name "Abdoollah" - I assume
> she'd just given up.

While I appreciate your overall point, I wonder what you're saying
about this last lady? Is it that you feel she should include the `ayin
at the beginning?

[Mark Brader]

Mark Brader:

>> Oh, you were talking about "sortation". Sorry, Canada Post was using
>> it back in the 20th century.

(Good thing I didn't suggest they invented it.)

Peter Duncanson:

> Also:
> http://www.ehow.com/facts_7214416_sortation-center_.html
>
> What Is a Sortation Center?
>
> Sortation center is term used by some companies to describe a
> location where letters and packages are sorted by zip code and
> sometimes size, date sent and contents. This type of facility is
> also called a sorting center.

I should have checked the OED Online sooner, but of course most entries
starting with S have not been updated since the OED2.

But, as it turns out, "sortation" is older than that anyway: it's
in the OED1, with citations as early as 1844. The second cite, from
1885, is directly relevant -- James Wilson Hyde, in "The Royal Mail,
its curiosities and romance", wrote:

Thus it will be seen that the sortation of letters is no mere
mechanical process.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "The E-Mail of the species is more deadly
m...@vex.net | than the Mail." -- Peter Neumann

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Fri, 23 May 2014 22:04:26 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Mark Brader:
>>> Oh, you were talking about "sortation". Sorry, Canada Post was using
>>> it back in the 20th century.
>
>(Good thing I didn't suggest they invented it.)
>
>Peter Duncanson:
>> Also:
>> http://www.ehow.com/facts_7214416_sortation-center_.html
>>
>> What Is a Sortation Center?
>>
>> Sortation center is term used by some companies to describe a
>> location where letters and packages are sorted by zip code and
>> sometimes size, date sent and contents. This type of facility is
>> also called a sorting center.
>
>I should have checked the OED Online sooner, but of course most entries
>starting with S have not been updated since the OED2.
>
>But, as it turns out, "sortation" is older than that anyway: it's
>in the OED1, with citations as early as 1844. The second cite, from
>1885, is directly relevant -- James Wilson Hyde, in "The Royal Mail,
>its curiosities and romance", wrote:
>
> Thus it will be seen that the sortation of letters is no mere
> mechanical process.

Then there are the cookery terms -

sautation: the process of frying quickly in a little hot fat

saltation: seasoning by adding sodium chloride

(One of those words exists but not defined like that.)

[Dr Nick]

LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes:

> On 20/05/2014 07:46, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>>
>> IUPAC have become very systematic with their colours. Everybody refers
>> to the recommendations on physical chemistry as "The Green Book", and
>> likewise for organic (blue) and inorganic (red). When they brought out
>> an encyclopaedia of chemical terminology it had a gold cover, and is, of
>> course, known as "The Gold Book" -- that choice was dictated by the fact
>> that its first ediror was Victor Gold.

Unlike "The Rubber Bible", every copy of which I've seen has been bound
in cloth.

> Reminds me of a report published by a committee chaired by Sir Ron
> Dearing in the 1980s. The cover design was the word "red" in white
> letters repeated over a red background. When I met one of the people
> involved I enquired about this and was told that Sir Ron had insisted
> on this: his initials were RED.

This seems the appropriate time to mention Sir Gus O'Donnell.

[Mike L]

On Fri, 23 May 2014 19:20:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Friday, May 23, 2014 5:49:51 PM UTC-4, Mike L wrote:
>
>> These anomalies can be either irritating or amusing, according to the
>> situation. Libya has a place called "Giarabub" on English maps,
>> because it was how the Italians tried to transliterate the real name,
>> which is "Jaghbub". Not sure if French still recognises a country

>> called "Arabie S�oudite" resulting, it seems, from some

>> English-speaker's incompetent pronunciation of "Sa'udi", or maybe an
>> innocent Frenchman's answer to a local offical's "How do the French
>> write the sound of the English 'a'?"
>> Churchill, in _My Early Life_ (fine book) commented on the confusion
>> arising when British officialdom adopted a reformed Romanised spelling
>> of Indian words. Not enough users understood that the English vowels
>> themselves would have to be adapted to a "continental" style. The
>> result was that locals who used to understand perfectly were now
>> baffled by the Brits' "outlandish pronunciation".
>> The confusion survives in patches, often twisted back on itself. The
>> horrible institution "sati" is still often spelt "suttee" in the
>> obsolete style, but some well-meaning people pronounce it "sooty": not
>> sure that Harry H. Corbett would have approved. I once knew a Mrs
>> Abdullah who even herself pronounced her name "Abdoollah" - I assume
>> she'd just given up.
>
>While I appreciate your overall point, I wonder what you're saying
>about this last lady? Is it that you feel she should include the `ayin
>at the beginning?

No, in English conversation I pronounce the "u" as in RP "putt" not
"put". Though coloured in a slightly Arabic way.

--
Mike.

[Peter T. Daniels]

So it's not only French, but also Arabic where the English borrowing
doesn't use the closest available English phoneme.

[Mike L]

On Sat, 24 May 2014 19:46:00 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 24, 2014 5:15:57 PM UTC-4, Mike L wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 May 2014 19:20:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >On Friday, May 23, 2014 5:49:51 PM UTC-4, Mike L wrote:
>
>> >> I once knew a Mrs
>> >> Abdullah who even herself pronounced her name "Abdoollah" - I assume
>> >> she'd just given up.
>> >While I appreciate your overall point, I wonder what you're saying
>> >about this last lady? Is it that you feel she should include the `ayin
>> >at the beginning?
>>
>> No, in English conversation I pronounce the "u" as in RP "putt" not
>> "put". Though coloured in a slightly Arabic way.
>
>So it's not only French, but also Arabic where the English borrowing
>doesn't use the closest available English phoneme.

I don't think RP has a closer one, though.

--
Mike.

[Peter T. Daniels]

"pull" (= "put")

"pool" would also work

(there's only one phonemic quality, and two lengths; here it's short,
i.e. "pull/put")

(note that your "oo" covers both the possibilities: "wool/fool")

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2014-05-24 18:44:21 +0000, Dr Nick said:

> LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes:
>
>> On 20/05/2014 07:46, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> IUPAC have become very systematic with their colours. Everybody refers
>>> to the recommendations on physical chemistry as "The Green Book", and
>>> likewise for organic (blue) and inorganic (red). When they brought out
>>> an encyclopaedia of chemical terminology it had a gold cover, and is, of
>>> course, known as "The Gold Book" -- that choice was dictated by the fact
>>> that its first ediror was Victor Gold.
>
> Unlike "The Rubber Bible", every copy of which I've seen has been bound
> in cloth.

I guess we're less influenced by Sir Gus (see below) than you. We just
call it "The Rubber book".

>
>> Reminds me of a report published by a committee chaired by Sir Ron
>> Dearing in the 1980s. The cover design was the word "red" in white
>> letters repeated over a red background. When I met one of the people
>> involved I enquired about this and was told that Sir Ron had insisted
>> on this: his initials were RED.
>
> This seems the appropriate time to mention Sir Gus O'Donnell.

--
athel

[Mike L]

On Sun, 25 May 2014 20:21:32 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Ah. No, I meant the RP "putt" or "shut" vowel, which seems to me as
near as we get to the "A" in "'Allah".

--
Mike.

[Peter T. Daniels]

I understood that. That was why I said that you were treating the
Arabic name badly, since a far closer vowel is readily available
in English.

If at the top you were trying to say that Mrs Abdullah uses the PUTT
vowel, spelling it "oo" was not a possible way of doing so.

[Robert Bannister]

As in that famous NSW Muslim enclave Ulladulla.

[Mike L]

On Mon, 26 May 2014 16:18:12 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

The point I was illustrating was the confusion about which system of
values for Roman alphabet vowels was to be used in these cases. I
mentioned "sooty" for "suttee". When I wrote "I once knew a Mrs

Abdullah who even herself pronounced her name 'Abdoollah' - I assume

she'd just given up" I thought it was reasonably clear that I was
giving a similar example: she must have _known_ the usual
pronunciation of her own married name.

--
Mike.

[Mike L]

Insidious expansion: there'll be Sharia law in Parramatta, you mark my
words.

--
Mike.

[Peter Moylan]

Just to balance the vowels out, there is a significant NSW Sikh enclave
in Woolgoolga.