metal spork for turkey soup

[bruce bowser]

I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it worth buying a new set of silverware?

[lar3ryca]

On Monday, November 29, 2021 at 9:09:22 AM UTC-6, bruce bowser wrote:
> I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it worth buying a new set of silverware?

I prefer 'fpoon'.

[J. J. Lodder]

Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',

Jan

[Peter T. Daniels]

Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."

Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
(and, occasionally, silver).

[Adam Funk]

The titanium stuff is mainly marketed for backpacking & cycle touring
to save weight.


--
Just memorize these shell commands and type them to sync up. If you
get errors, save your work elsewhere, delete the project, and download
a fresh copy. <https://xkcd.com/1597/>

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 10:45:07 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2021-12-01, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 4:39:10 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> > I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
> >> > But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
> >> > worth buying a new set of silverware?
> >> Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
> > Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
> > manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
> > Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
> > a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
> > (and, occasionally, silver).
>
> The titanium stuff is mainly marketed for backpacking & cycle touring
> to save weight.

Ah. 50+ years ago there was aluminum.

[Adam Funk]

Yup, and that was good enough for Napoleon.

--
I was born, lucky me, in a land that I love.
Though I'm poor, I am free.
When I grow I shall fight; for this land I shall die.
May the sun never set. ---The Kinks

[J. J. Lodder]

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 4:39:10 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
> > > But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
> > > worth buying a new set of silverware?
> >
> > Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
>
> Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
> manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."

I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,

Jan

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2021-12-01 17:22:02 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 4:39:10 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>> bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
>>>> But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
>>>> worth buying a new set of silverware?
>>>
>>> Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
>>
>> Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
>> manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
>
> I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
> Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
> that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
>

That's what "silverware" means in the UK.

>
>> Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
>> a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
>> (and, occasionally, silver).

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 18:22:02 +0100, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder) wrote:

>Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 4:39:10 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> > bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
>> > > But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
>> > > worth buying a new set of silverware?
>> >
>> > Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
>>
>> Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
>> manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
>
>I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
>Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
>that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
>

You may consider it an abuse, but we don't. "Silverware" is a
commonly used term in the US to describe what is properly called
"flatware", and includes sterling silver utensils, silver plate
utensils, and stainless steel utensils.

No one writing "silverware" would be corrected for using that term
even if the items being described are cheap stainless.

In fact, in places that supply plastic utensils, you would not confuse
anyone by asking where the "silverware" was if you needed those
utensils.

BTW...the US term for serving bowls and other tableware items (except
glassware) that are not eating utensils are properly called
"holloware"...even if they are flat plates that are not hollow.

We Americans manage to ignore the obstacles that confuse the Dutch.

--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[Sam Plusnet]

On 01-Dec-21 17:22, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 4:39:10 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>> bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
>>>> But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
>>>> worth buying a new set of silverware?
>>>
>>> Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
>>
>> Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
>> manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
>

> Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
> that are at least superficially silver, like plate,

It's "an ordinary-language term" for... - where he lives.

--
Sam Plusnet

[charles]

In article <1pjip18.s71...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,

J. J. Lodder <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> > On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 4:39:10 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > > bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
> > > > But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
> > > > worth buying a new set of silverware?
> > >
> > > Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
> >
> > Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
> > manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."

> I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
> Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
> that are at least superficially silver, like plate,

> Jan

In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items. Yes, we do
have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my safe and comes out on
very special occasions.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Tony Cooper]

Yes, that limiter ("in the US") should be included in the statement.

In this house, we have three different sets of "silverware". We have
"the good silver" that is sterling silver and kept in the "silver
drawer" of a buffet (aka: a sideboard) in compartmented cloth
holderers made of a material that supposedly retards oxydation. (It
doesn't). In the compartments of the silverdrawer we have a
silver-plated set. The stainless utensils are kept in a drawer in the
kitchen.

The "good silver" is seldom set out. Despite that
tarnish-preventitive cloth holder, the sterling usually needs to be
polished before use. The silver plate set is used when "company" is
over, and the kitchen stainless is used for everyday meals.

We do have a number of specialty sterling items (olive fork, sugar
spoons, etc) that are used frequently. It seems that even sterling
will not tarnish if kept in use, so they don't need polishing.

We may be a bit different because I collected sterling items for
years. I bought items at house sales, antique shops, and wherever I
found pieces that I found attractive. I have several books that
identify the hallmarks and makers' marks. (European items have
hallmarks, but American silver and coin silver have makers' marks)

I started collecting silver when a relative asked me to photograph her
items. Silver items are tricky to photograph because the surfaces are
reflective and the marks required macro photography. That got me
interested.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 12:15:08 PM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2021-12-01, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 10:45:07 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> >> On 2021-12-01, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 4:39:10 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> >> bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> >> > I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
> >> >> > But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
> >> >> > worth buying a new set of silverware?
> >> >> Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
> >> > Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
> >> > manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
> >> > Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
> >> > a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
> >> > (and, occasionally, silver).
> >> The titanium stuff is mainly marketed for backpacking & cycle touring
> >> to save weight.
> > Ah. 50+ years ago there was aluminum.
>
> Yup, and that was good enough for Napoleon.

Seems unlikely, since the capstone of the Washington Monument
(completed 1885) is a tiny pyramid of aluminum, which at the time
was rather more precious than gold.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 1:01:12 PM UTC-5, charles wrote:
> In article <1pjip18.s71...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,
> J. J. Lodder <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
> > Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 4:39:10 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > > > bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > > > I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
> > > > > But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
> > > > > worth buying a new set of silverware?
> > > > Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
> > > Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
> > > manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
> > I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
> > Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
> > that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
>

> In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items. Yes, we do
> have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my safe and comes out on
> very special occasions.

We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden case
lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished before being set out.

"Cutlery" should be things that cut.

[Snidely]

On Wednesday, Peter T. Daniels queried:

This doesn't have anything to do with the 1812 Overture, and the line
didn't stop at St Helena. On the other hand, I think the aluminum
article in question wasn't a spork, but something that looks a bit more
... ceremonial, and probably wasn't used much after the Emperor's visit
to Sedan. He was deposed after said visit, which shows that doing what
the public wants can backfire.

/dps


--
Trust, but verify.

[charles]

In article <e48cd1fa-ab1a-40a1...@googlegroups.com>, Peter

T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 1:01:12 PM UTC-5, charles wrote:
> > In article <1pjip18.s71...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>, J. J. Lodder
> > <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
> > > Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 4:39:10 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > > > > I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon
> > > > > > combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone
> > > > > > else used one? Is it worth buying a new set of silverware?
> > > > > Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
> > > > Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for
> > > > the manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
> > > I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
> > > Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items that are at
> > > least superficially silver, like plate,
> >
> > In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items. Yes,
> > we do have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my safe and
> > comes out on very special occasions.

> We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden case
> lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished before being
> set out.

> "Cutlery" should be things that cut.

agreed, but "siverware" should only be used for silver.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 01/12/2021 21:28, charles wrote:
> In article <e48cd1fa-ab1a-40a1...@googlegroups.com>, Peter
> T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

<snip>

>> "Cutlery" should be things that cut.
>
> agreed, but "siverware" should only be used for silver.

Or possibly a mixture of silicon, vanadium, and erbium.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

But what would you call the forks and spoons?

Sure, you sometimes cut food with those, but does that mean chopsticks
are cutlery, too?

--
A "moderate Republican" now is a far-right Republican who
publicly laments it.
-- John Fugelsang (2021)

[bruce bowser]

On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 5:13:06 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 1:01:12 PM UTC-5, charles wrote:
> >> In article <1pjip18.s71...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,
> >> J. J. Lodder <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
> >>> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>> > On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 4:39:10 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>> > > bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> > > > I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
> >>> > > > But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
> >>> > > > worth buying a new set of silverware?
> >>> > > Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
> >>> > Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
> >>> > manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
> >>> I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
> >>> Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
> >>> that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
> >>
> >> In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items. Yes, we do
> >> have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my safe and comes out on
> >> very special occasions.
> >
> > We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden case
> > lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished before being set out.
> >
> > "Cutlery" should be things that cut.
>
> But what would you call the forks and spoons?

maybe, the same that you'd call a tape recorder. Not in existance anymore.

[Sam Plusnet]

Perhaps, but The Worshipful Company of Cutlers have diversified since 1416.


--
Sam Plusnet

[Paul Wolff]

On Wed, 1 Dec 2021, at 17:13:00, Quinn C posted:

That is a fair point. In BrE usage, I think that cutlery encompasses all
those hand-held devices used at table to transfer food from plate to
mouth. I hope "at table" doesn't need translation. I hear that there are
some people today who don't believe in communal mealtimes at all.

Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from way
back when. They even had their own trademark registry for bladed
products, recognised in English law. 'The Blades' is the current
nickname of Sheffield United Football Club. So far, this supports PTD.
But today's usage goes beyond, and says cutlery is knives, forks and
spoons. If pushed, sporks too, I'm sure.

'Cutlery' isn't synonymous with 'silver'. We should admit here that
different usages abound. My own prejudice is towards 'silver' = cutlery
of solid (if alloyed) silver, or silver plate. I wouldn't dignify any
baser metal with the name.

From Tony Cooper, I infer that AmE flatware = BrE cutlery.
--
Paul

[Tony Cooper]

Yes, but don't expect any American you run into to use that term.
Where you might see/hear it is at a store that has an area where what
we usually call "silverware" is sold. Or, by someone who is involved
with the buying or selling of that type of product. Or on the list of
items the bride and groom have suggested that you get them as a
wedding gift.*

If an American refers to "cutlery", I would assume they are referring
to all of the types of knives used in the kitchen for preparing food.
A bread kife, a paring knife, and meat knife are "cutlery", but a
serving fork or spoon is not. All "cutlery" is stainless steel.
Silver or silver plate items just don't cut it.

The above from an American's perspective.

*Dunno if that is the practice in other countries. Here, when a
couple announces their wedding, they will register at several stores.
They pick out items that they would like and list them.

If I go to - say - Macy's to buy a wedding present for a couple, the
store has that list. If I buy them a toaster, the list shows that
this item has been purchased so others will not also buy a toaster.
The list will include the silverware/dinnerware/glassware pattern so I
can - for example - buy two place settings of their china. Others may
add more place settings.

With fewer couple actually getting married, I suppose the practice is
not as common today.

The above is from my own experience, and not indicative of everyone
else's experience.

[Adam Funk]

Oops, not the most famous Napoleon but #3, & just "reputed":

French chemist Henri Étienne Sainte-Claire Deville announced an
industrial method of aluminium production in 1854 at the Paris
Academy of Sciences.[48] Aluminium chloride could be reduced by
sodium, a metal more convenient and less expensive than potassium
used by Wöhler.[49] Deville was able to produce an ingot of the
metal.[50] Napoleon III of France promised Deville an unlimited
subsidy for aluminium research; in total, Deville used 36,000 French
francs—20 times the annual income of an ordinary family.[51]
Napoleon's interest in aluminium lay in its potential military use:
he wished weapons, helmets, armor, and other equipment for the
French army could be made of the new light, shiny metal.[51] While
the metal was still not displayed to the public, Napoleon is reputed
to have held a banquet where the most honored guests were given
aluminium utensils while others made do with gold.[45]

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_aluminium#Early_industrial_production>


--
A firm rule must be imposed upon our nation before it destroys
itself. The United States needs some theology and geometry, some taste
and decency. I suspect that we are teetering on the edge of the abyss.
---Ignatius J Reilly

[Adam Funk]

On 2021-12-01, Tony Cooper wrote:

> On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 18:22:02 +0100, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> Lodder) wrote:
>
>>Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 4:39:10 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>> > bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
>>> > > But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
>>> > > worth buying a new set of silverware?
>>> >
>>> > Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
>>>
>>> Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
>>> manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
>>
>>I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
>>Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
>>that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
>>
> You may consider it an abuse, but we don't. "Silverware" is a
> commonly used term in the US to describe what is properly called
> "flatware", and includes sterling silver utensils, silver plate
> utensils, and stainless steel utensils.
>
> No one writing "silverware" would be corrected for using that term
> even if the items being described are cheap stainless.
>
> In fact, in places that supply plastic utensils, you would not confuse
> anyone by asking where the "silverware" was if you needed those
> utensils.

I wouldn't be *confused* by that, but it does sound really weird to
me.

> BTW...the US term for serving bowls and other tableware items (except
> glassware) that are not eating utensils are properly called
> "holloware"...even if they are flat plates that are not hollow.

Even "flat plates" are (almost always) slightly concave to corral the
sauce.

> We Americans manage to ignore the obstacles that confuse the Dutch.
>

--

In general, I find that calligraphers are just about the nicest people
I've ever met. ---Donald Knuth

[Adam Funk]

It doesn't *need* translation, but AmE would be "at the table"
(cf. "in the hospital").

> I hear that there are
> some people today who don't believe in communal mealtimes at all.
>
> Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
> England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
> mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from way

It still exists; they have a very fancy building across the street
from the cathedral.

<https://cutlershall.co.uk/>

> back when. They even had their own trademark registry for bladed
> products, recognised in English law. 'The Blades' is the current
> nickname of Sheffield United Football Club. So far, this supports PTD.
> But today's usage goes beyond, and says cutlery is knives, forks and
> spoons. If pushed, sporks too, I'm sure.
>
> 'Cutlery' isn't synonymous with 'silver'. We should admit here that
> different usages abound. My own prejudice is towards 'silver' = cutlery
> of solid (if alloyed) silver, or silver plate. I wouldn't dignify any
> baser metal with the name.
>
> From Tony Cooper, I infer that AmE flatware = BrE cutlery.

--

FORTRAN: You shoot yourself in each toe, iteratively, until you run
out of toes, then you read in the next foot and repeat. If you run out
of bullets, you continue anyway because you have no exception-handling
facility.

[Quinn C]

* Adam Funk:

Sure, but that's not distinguishing serving plates from eating plates.
If anything, serving plates are more often completely flat (if with a
bit of a rim.)

Some cheap cutlery is actual literal hollowware. That's when you try to
lift it and your hand ends up a meter above the table because it weighs
nothing.

--
Canada is not the United States. We can't just thump the table
and demand things, and expect everyone to fall in line. We have
to work with other people.
-- Jeffrey Lewis

[Peter T. Daniels]

Ain't language great?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 5:13:06 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:

> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 1:01:12 PM UTC-5, charles wrote:
> >> In article <1pjip18.s71...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,
> >> J. J. Lodder <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
> >>> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>> > On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 4:39:10 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>> > > bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >>> > > > I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
> >>> > > > But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
> >>> > > > worth buying a new set of silverware?
> >>> > > Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
> >>> > Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
> >>> > manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
> >>> I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
> >>> Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
> >>> that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
> >> In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items. Yes, we do
> >> have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my safe and comes out on
> >> very special occasions.
> > We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden case
> > lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished before being set out.
> > "Cutlery" should be things that cut.
>
> But what would you call the forks and spoons?

My point exactly.

> Sure, you sometimes cut food with those, but does that mean chopsticks
> are cutlery, too?

You'll have to ask charles.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Kinda like the Teamsters' Union.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 8:03:31 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:

> If an American refers to "cutlery", I would assume they are referring
> to all of the types of knives used in the kitchen for preparing food.
> A bread kife, a paring knife, and meat knife are "cutlery", but a
> serving fork or spoon is not. All "cutlery" is stainless steel.
> Silver or silver plate items just don't cut it.

Does the giant fork paired with the carving knife get to be honorary
cutlery? Especially if there's a slot for it in the wooden block that holds
all the non-tableware knives (but sometimes also the steak knives,
which unaccountably come in sets of six when everything else comes
in eights)?

[Peter T. Daniels]

Oh -- the one who got onto the stamps.

The first French stamps depicted Ceres (1849), then in 1850
President Louis Napoleon, in 1852 Emperor Napoleon III. They
went to allegories in 1870 and a living ruler didn't appear on
stamps until Pétain a long time later (and not since).

[Adam Funk]

<https://xkcd.com/1641/>


--
The Nixon I remembered was absolutely humorless; I couldn't imagine
him laughing at anything except maybe a paraplegic who wanted to vote
Democratic but couldn't quite reach the lever on the voting machine.
---Hunter S Thompson

[Adam Funk]

I'd include chopsticks in "cutlery", but I don't claim to be
authoritative about it.


--
They do (play, that is), and nobody gets killed, but Metallic K.O. is
the only rock album I know where you can actually hear hurled beer
bottles breaking against guitar strings. ---Lester Bangs

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 11:30:07 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2021-12-02, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 8:03:31 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:

> >> If an American refers to "cutlery", I would assume they are referring
> >> to all of the types of knives used in the kitchen for preparing food.
> >> A bread kife, a paring knife, and meat knife are "cutlery", but a
> >> serving fork or spoon is not. All "cutlery" is stainless steel.
> >> Silver or silver plate items just don't cut it.
> > Does the giant fork paired with the carving knife get to be honorary
> > cutlery? Especially if there's a slot for it in the wooden block that holds
> > all the non-tableware knives (but sometimes also the steak knives,
> > which unaccountably come in sets of six when everything else comes
> > in eights)?
> <https://xkcd.com/1641/>

A hearty LOL!

> --
> The Nixon I remembered was absolutely humorless; I couldn't imagine
> him laughing at anything except maybe a paraplegic who wanted to vote
> Democratic but couldn't quite reach the lever on the voting machine.
> ---Hunter S Thompson

Does that help with the scapegoat question?

[charles]

In article <d9e6dbe0-711c-48a6...@googlegroups.com>, Peter

I've only ever used chopsticks once, it a very upmarket Chinese restaurant
in Leeds. This would hav ebeen around 40 years ago, but I don't think I
needed to cut with them.

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

What are the things that come in eights where you live?

I grew up with sets of plates, cup, but also utensils (possibly a term
that's more common here under the influence of French) coming in six or
twelve in Germany, and my impression is that it's the same here in
Canada, although the last set I bought was a set of four - I assumed
that to be a concession to the rising number of small households.

In Japan, where even numbers are considered less lucky, the usual sets
are of five.

A comedian on TV was telling how when he moved out from his parents, he
bought one plate, one knife and one fork, because, why would he need
more than that. He only later was diagnosed with Aspergers.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Sam Plusnet]

On 01-Dec-21 23:06, Paul Wolff wrote:
>
> Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
> England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
> mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from way
> back when. They even had their own trademark registry for bladed
> products, recognised in English law. 'The Blades' is the current
> nickname of Sheffield United Football Club. So far, this supports PTD.
> But today's usage goes beyond, and says cutlery is knives, forks and
> spoons. If pushed, sporks too, I'm sure.

A friend had 'digs' in the Sheffield Assay Office. He was discouraged
from having friends visit, and he had to promise to leave things untouched.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

On 02-Dec-21 9:16, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2021-12-01, Paul Wolff wrote:
>

>> Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
>> England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
>> mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from way
>
> It still exists; they have a very fancy building across the street
> from the cathedral.
>
> <https://cutlershall.co.uk/>

Named for Ivor Cutler.
A splendid man.



--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

<contemplates the life and times of Jimmy Hoffa>

Not really.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Adam Funk]

I had not thought of that!


--
Mrs CJ and I avoid clichés like the plague.

[bil...@shaw.ca]

Large Chinese restaurants in Vancouver provide at least one set of serving
chopsticks and more usually two sets per table; each round table seats 10.
Serving chopsticks are larger than eating chopsticks and a different colour.
When a new platter of food arrives at the table, one person will generally use
the serving chopsticks to transfer a portion of the food to each diner's plate,
then place the chopsticks back on a little stand on the table. Servers carry
a pair of kitchen scissors, and will use them to cut solid food items into an
appropriate number of pieces before placing the serving platter on the table.
Soups and congees come with a ladle and are served from a large bowl by
one diner to all the others.

The diners in this case were tai chi practitioners sharing a meal after a
workout, and I noticed that Chinese family groups eating at other tables
tended to have a more relaxed approach to serving food. The initial serving
from a fresh platter might be done by one person, but after that if you
wanted more, you simply took it.

bill

[Adam Funk]

I didn't know any of that, but I can see why they stopped doing it
there.

>> French chemist Henri Étienne Sainte-Claire Deville announced an
>> industrial method of aluminium production in 1854 at the Paris
>> Academy of Sciences.[48] Aluminium chloride could be reduced by
>> sodium, a metal more convenient and less expensive than potassium
>> used by Wöhler.[49] Deville was able to produce an ingot of the
>> metal.[50] Napoleon III of France promised Deville an unlimited
>> subsidy for aluminium research; in total, Deville used 36,000 French
>> francs—20 times the annual income of an ordinary family.[51]
>> Napoleon's interest in aluminium lay in its potential military use:
>> he wished weapons, helmets, armor, and other equipment for the
>> French army could be made of the new light, shiny metal.[51] While
>> the metal was still not displayed to the public, Napoleon is reputed
>> to have held a banquet where the most honored guests were given
>> aluminium utensils while others made do with gold.[45]
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_aluminium#Early_industrial_production>

--
He [Nixon] is the president of every place in this country which
does not have a bookstore. ---Murray Kempton

[charles]

In article <d3903f34-30c9-4269...@googlegroups.com>,

difficult eating soup with chopsticks.

> The diners in this case were tai chi practitioners sharing a meal after a
> workout, and I noticed that Chinese family groups eating at other tables
> tended to have a more relaxed approach to serving food. The initial
> serving from a fresh platter might be done by one person, but after that
> if you wanted more, you simply took it.

> bill

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

I quite enjoyed the John Peel show with his whimsical musings (Or was
that Adge?)

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Sam Plusnet]

Thanks to YouTube, I revisited (inter alia) Gravity Begins at Home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt-GeuNAQKU


--
Sam Plusnet

[Paul Wolff]

On Thu, 2 Dec 2021, at 13:28:22, Quinn C posted:

>
>In Japan, where even numbers are considered less lucky,

Curious how that sort of irrational superstition survives. Why do the
Chinese think red is a lucky colour? Or is there something rational in
any of it, for rational people? I can't see how.

The ancient Romans thought odd numbers more favourable. I do know that
their months were originally 29 or 31 days long. They had the year as
355 days, made up of 4 x 31 days plus 8 x 29 days, except that gives
356, which is unlucky, so February was reduced to 28. Perhaps one
unlucky month was better than a whole unlucky year. And as February was
the year end, its purificatory rituals may have redeemed it.

And before anyone asks: they knew that 355 needed to be corrected, so
they added another month, the Intercalaris, every now and again. It was
all to do with the moon, with correction according to the sun. OK? The
verb 'calare', whence calendar, was to do with the new moon, I've been
told. And considering that 'moon' and 'month' are somewhat related, we
aren't that much smarter, really.
--
Paul

[J. J. Lodder]

So they have smaller bowls and porcelain spoons for that,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

The whole point of chopsticks is precisely
that you cannot cut with them.
In fact no cutting instruments of any kind were allowed to be
in the neighbourhood of a Chinese emperor at dinner.
All food was carried in pre-cut.

Just long experience with sound survival tactics,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:

> On 2021-12-02, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 4:15:07 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> >> On 2021-12-01, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 12:15:08 PM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> >> >> On 2021-12-01, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> >> > On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 10:45:07 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> >> >> >> On 2021-12-01, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> >> >> >> > On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 4:39:10 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder:

They started a wholly new republic in 1945,
with new habits. (the IVth)
There is a list of all persons who have appeared on French stamps at
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_on_the_postage_stamps_of_France>

So there is a De Gaulle stamp,
but it didn't appear until after his death,
and not while he was head of state of his own Vth republic.

Jan

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 1:28:30 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 8:03:31 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >
> >> If an American refers to "cutlery", I would assume they are referring
> >> to all of the types of knives used in the kitchen for preparing food.
> >> A bread kife, a paring knife, and meat knife are "cutlery", but a
> >> serving fork or spoon is not. All "cutlery" is stainless steel.
> >> Silver or silver plate items just don't cut it.
> >
> > Does the giant fork paired with the carving knife get to be honorary
> > cutlery? Especially if there's a slot for it in the wooden block that holds
> > all the non-tableware knives (but sometimes also the steak knives,
> > which unaccountably come in sets of six when everything else comes
> > in eights)?
>
> What are the things that come in eights where you live?

Place settings -- china and silver. Very elaborate ones come in twelves,
starter sets at the discount stores in fours.

> I grew up with sets of plates, cup, but also utensils (possibly a term
> that's more common here under the influence of French) coming in six or
> twelve in Germany, and my impression is that it's the same here in
> Canada, although the last set I bought was a set of four - I assumed
> that to be a concession to the rising number of small households.
>
> In Japan, where even numbers are considered less lucky, the usual sets
> are of five.
>
> A comedian on TV was telling how when he moved out from his parents, he
> bought one plate, one knife and one fork, because, why would he need
> more than that. He only later was diagnosed with Aspergers.

Because he made jokes about being friendless?

[Peter T. Daniels]

Fewer and fewer countries prohibit the depiction of living people
on their stamps. The US changed that rule a number of years ago,
and the very first living person explicitly depicted was Daniel Radcliffe.
There seem not to have been any since that Harry Potter Movies set.

(Some stamps showed the feats of specific astronauts but without
portraits or names, the first being John Glenn's orbital flight. It was
not placed on sale until he had safely returned from space -- and had
been prepared, printed, and distributed in total secrecy.)

Paging through the Scott Catalogue of Classic Postage Stamps
(complete listings 1840-1940, to 1952 for Commonwealth countries)
I didn't find any French stamp for the Little Colonel -- and he isn't in
that list to this day! (Under either N or B.)

[Sam Plusnet]

On 02-Dec-21 22:48, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> Fewer and fewer countries prohibit the depiction of living people
> on their stamps. The US changed that rule a number of years ago,
> and the very first living person explicitly depicted was Daniel Radcliffe.
> There seem not to have been any since that Harry Potter Movies set.

Hmm. Did the stamp depict Daniel Radcliffe, or Harry Potter?

A stamp of David Prowse/Darth Vader in full costume would muddy the
waters even more.


--
Sam Plusnet

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 14:38:24 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 1:28:30 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>> > On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 8:03:31 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> >
>> >> If an American refers to "cutlery", I would assume they are referring
>> >> to all of the types of knives used in the kitchen for preparing food.
>> >> A bread kife, a paring knife, and meat knife are "cutlery", but a
>> >> serving fork or spoon is not. All "cutlery" is stainless steel.
>> >> Silver or silver plate items just don't cut it.
>> >
>> > Does the giant fork paired with the carving knife get to be honorary
>> > cutlery? Especially if there's a slot for it in the wooden block that holds
>> > all the non-tableware knives (but sometimes also the steak knives,
>> > which unaccountably come in sets of six when everything else comes
>> > in eights)?
>>
>> What are the things that come in eights where you live?
>
>Place settings -- china and silver. Very elaborate ones come in twelves,
>starter sets at the discount stores in fours.

A "place setting" is a selection of items for one person's needs. The
number of pieces depends on the maker and the pattern. Five items is
common for china items (but not the only number of items) place
setting.

A common combination for a place setting is a dinner plate, a bread
plate, a salad plate or bowl, a cup, and a saucer.

A "set" is multiple place settings.

Fine china, at most high-end stores, can be ordered by the place
setting or in sets (usually referred to as a "Service for X) of -
usually - four, eight, or twelve settings and usually includes
non-personal items like a sugar bowl and creamer, serving bowls, etc.

We bought a service for six at Harrods (Royal Daulton "Rondelay") when
we were in London in 1969. At the time, considering shipping cost and
the exchange rate, it was a better deal than buying the same set in
the US. We later added a six more place settings and a few
replacement items for chipped and broken items.


--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[Tony Cooper]

Those spoons are almost impossible to use without slurping or
spilling.

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 1:28:30 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>> On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 8:03:31 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>>> If an American refers to "cutlery", I would assume they are referring
>>>> to all of the types of knives used in the kitchen for preparing food.
>>>> A bread kife, a paring knife, and meat knife are "cutlery", but a
>>>> serving fork or spoon is not. All "cutlery" is stainless steel.
>>>> Silver or silver plate items just don't cut it.
>>>
>>> Does the giant fork paired with the carving knife get to be honorary
>>> cutlery? Especially if there's a slot for it in the wooden block that holds
>>> all the non-tableware knives (but sometimes also the steak knives,
>>> which unaccountably come in sets of six when everything else comes
>>> in eights)?
>>
>> What are the things that come in eights where you live?
>
> Place settings -- china and silver. Very elaborate ones come in twelves,
> starter sets at the discount stores in fours.

So I went on the web site of the Hudson Bay Company, as a representative
of tradition, and checked out some of their dinnerware and flatware
sets. Putting aside the real expensive stuff that is priced per setting,
and you name any number you like, the overwhelming majority of
pre-packaged sets is now for 4 places. But there are some for 6. It
could be that those come from Europe and aren't adapted for the market.

I didn't see sets for 8 or 12 places. I guess you're expected to buy two
or three sets of four.

I noticed one flatware set for 10 people.

>> I grew up with sets of plates, cup, but also utensils (possibly a term
>> that's more common here under the influence of French) coming in six or
>> twelve in Germany, and my impression is that it's the same here in
>> Canada, although the last set I bought was a set of four - I assumed
>> that to be a concession to the rising number of small households.
>>
>> In Japan, where even numbers are considered less lucky, the usual sets
>> are of five.
>>
>> A comedian on TV was telling how when he moved out from his parents, he
>> bought one plate, one knife and one fork, because, why would he need
>> more than that. He only later was diagnosed with Aspergers.
>
> Because he made jokes about being friendless?

He was making jokes about the differences between him and other people.

Buying one of each was just logical for him - he was going to live
alone, nobody was expected to visit, so he needed only one. No emotion
was attached to that choice. For most people, it doesn't work like that
- they would either buy several in the hope that some day they'll have
guests, or be sad about what buying just one said about their life. The
diagnosis gave him a bit of an explanation for different reactions like
this.

That aside, I like to have several pieces of each to myself, because I
find it makes the washing more efficient. I don't like to wash the knife
in the middle of making a sandwich, so I may use up to three knives in
the process.

--
In the old days, the complaints about the passing of the
golden age were much more sophisticated.
-- James Hogg in alt.usage.english

[Quinn C]

* charles:

> In article <d3903f34-30c9-4269...@googlegroups.com>,
> bil...@shaw.ca <bil...@shaw.ca> wrote:

>> Large Chinese restaurants in Vancouver provide at least one set of
>> serving chopsticks and more usually two sets per table; each round table
>> seats 10. Serving chopsticks are larger than eating chopsticks and a
>> different colour. When a new platter of food arrives at the table, one
>> person will generally use the serving chopsticks to transfer a portion of
>> the food to each diner's plate, then place the chopsticks back on a
>> little stand on the table. Servers carry a pair of kitchen scissors, and
>> will use them to cut solid food items into an appropriate number of
>> pieces before placing the serving platter on the table. Soups and congees
>> come with a ladle and are served from a large bowl by one diner to all
>> the others.
>
> difficult eating soup with chopsticks.

In Japan, you usually do, but there's a reason the Japanese language
calls it "drinking soup".

[Quinn C]

* J. J. Lodder:

Yes, but just as you may cut potatoes with your fork, it's not unusual
to cut an omelet or pieces of tofu with chopsticks.

The discussion was about whether that counts as cutting for the purpose
of naming something cutlery.

On a higher level, I was making fun of the idea that terms like
"cutlery", "silverware" or "hollowware" should be true to their
etymology.

--
The country has its quota of fools and windbags; such people are
most prominent in politics, where their inherent weaknesses seem
less glaring and attract less ridicule than they would in other
walks of life. -- Robert Bothwell et.al.: Canada since 1945

[Snidely]

Just this Thursday, Tony Cooper reminisced about:

> We bought a service for six at Harrods (Royal Daulton "Rondelay") when
> we were in London in 1969. At the time, considering shipping cost and
> the exchange rate, it was a better deal than buying the same set in
> the US. We later added a six more place settings and a few
> replacement items for chipped and broken items.

That's a nice pattern, from what I can see. Your teacups have a slight
flare? Did you get the teapot, and is it the round one or the
rectangular one?

/dps

--
"That’s where I end with this kind of conversation: Language is
crucial, and yet not the answer."
Jonathan Rosa, sociocultural and linguistic anthropologist,
Stanford.,2020

[Tony Cooper]

Interesting what certain words connote. I see PTD's use of "china"
and think he's referring to that "real expensive stuff that is priced
per setting".

You see it and read it as "dinnerware". That includes those boxed
sets of everyday stuff.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 02 Dec 2021 17:12:05 -0800, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Just this Thursday, Tony Cooper reminisced about:
>
>> We bought a service for six at Harrods (Royal Daulton "Rondelay") when
>> we were in London in 1969. At the time, considering shipping cost and
>> the exchange rate, it was a better deal than buying the same set in
>> the US. We later added a six more place settings and a few
>> replacement items for chipped and broken items.
>
>That's a nice pattern, from what I can see. Your teacups have a slight
>flare? Did you get the teapot, and is it the round one or the
>rectangular one?

Yes: this one:

https://www.replacements.com/china-royal-doulton-rondelay-concord-shape-teapot-and-lid/p/5625221

The rest of the service is in the sideboard in padded sleeves, but the
teapot, sugar, and creamer are in use and kept in the kitchen cabinet.
Not the cups, though.

Replacements Ltd has a lot of Rondelay items still available. I broke
the creamer several years ago, and bought a replacement from them.

The cups do have a flare.

[Peter Moylan]

On 02/12/21 10:06, Paul Wolff wrote:

> Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
> England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
> mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from

> way back when. They even had their own trademark registry for bladed
> products, recognised in English law. 'The Blades' is the current
> nickname of Sheffield United Football Club. So far, this supports
> PTD. But today's usage goes beyond, and says cutlery is knives, forks
> and spoons. If pushed, sporks too, I'm sure.

My forks and spoons are definitely cutlery, in my language, but they are
not flat enough to be called flatware. The knives are fairly flat.

I have mixed feelings about the term "silverware". Should silver-plated
cutlery qualify? My gut says no.

The cutlery of my childhood had indented marks saying "EPNS ENGLAND". I
believe EPNS stood for electroplated nickel steel. In those days there
probably wasn't any Australian-made cutlery, so we had to get it from
England.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[musika]

Electroplated nickel silver.

--
Ray
UK

[Richard Heathfield]

On 03/12/2021 05:58, Peter Moylan wrote:

<snip>

> I have mixed feelings about the term "silverware". Should silver-plated
> cutlery qualify? My gut says no.
>
> The cutlery of my childhood had indented marks saying "EPNS ENGLAND". I
> believe EPNS stood for electroplated nickel steel. In those days there
> probably wasn't any Australian-made cutlery, so we had to get it from
> England.

Late 1970s sitcom "To The Manor Born" portrays the fall from money of
Audrey fforbes-Hamilton and her transition from her manor house to the
Lodge at the bottom of the drive.

In one episode Brabinger, her butler, assures her that when serving
sherry to guests to the Lodge he keeps his thumb over the "EPNS" mark.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Snidely]

Watch this space, where Tony Cooper advised that...

Thank you. I was looking at pictures from ebay and etsy, and while
they were also trying to show me other patterns there were some hints
of a cup with straight sides (like a mug) and a teapot in the pumpkin
shape.

I like simple, clean patterns like yours, but I'd probably pick
chinese-blue on white. My mother's pattern, from Czechlosvakia in
1939, is a very simple grey pattern on white, with a classical theme.
There are a few post-war replacement pieces with a related but
different pattern, but you may not notice while the meal is going on.

On the other hand, my eclectism has led me, for my daily use, to a
solid color setting from Ikea. Originally I had just tea cups for use
at the office, one in each of blue, turquoise, and seafoam. Now I have
the white cup and a rainbow of sandwich plates to match and bowls in
the blue. And the little Ikea bowls with a mock Chinois pattern
blue-on-white (set of 4, each with a different version of the pattern).

Speaking of buying used stuff for handling comestibles, have you seen
this?
<URL:https://www.theverge.com/22801890/sunbeam-radiant-control-toaster-t20-t35-vista>

I don't think I've ever used one of those, but simpler toasters with
thermostats triggering the pop-up were part of my life for a long time.
Even well into my adult years, with units where you looked for the
slot marked for single slices.

I also remember my aunt's "tipi" toaster, that was entirely manual, and
she may even have had a wire rack to use on her woodstove. (1950s
version woodstove, with a 1950s electric stove next to it. Both had
ovens.)

Okay, now that the cup has overflowethed with nostalgia, I'll give a
break to any readers that made it this far. Both of these reference
recent subthreads in AUE:

<URL:https://www.gocomics.com/getfuzzy/2021/10/03>
<URL:https://www.gocomics.com/getfuzzy/2021/09/15>

(and yes, I know these seem to be from 2009 and 2010; I don't think
I've seen a 2011 yet.)

/dps "there's also a chess match going on, eh?"

--
Trust, but verify.

[Snidely]

Peter Moylan suggested that ...

> On 02/12/21 10:06, Paul Wolff wrote:
>
>> Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
>> England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
>> mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from
>> way back when. They even had their own trademark registry for bladed
>> products, recognised in English law. 'The Blades' is the current
>> nickname of Sheffield United Football Club. So far, this supports
>> PTD. But today's usage goes beyond, and says cutlery is knives, forks
>> and spoons. If pushed, sporks too, I'm sure.
>
> My forks and spoons are definitely cutlery, in my language, but they are
> not flat enough to be called flatware. The knives are fairly flat.

I think "flatware" as a term came about because people were stamping
out table service items. Large hammers, rather than castings in molds.
Works out pretty well for stainless steel, which the Oneida people
have done well with, and since then just about everybody else.

> I have mixed feelings about the term "silverware". Should silver-plated
> cutlery qualify? My gut says no.

Isn't silver too soft to hold up to steaks and swedes and carrots?
Cups should be alright, but even those are probably an alloy of silver.

> The cutlery of my childhood had indented marks saying "EPNS ENGLAND". I
> believe EPNS stood for electroplated nickel steel. In those days there
> probably wasn't any Australian-made cutlery, so we had to get it from
> England.

My mother called her set "sterling", but I don't have access to the
[maker] marks on it. Her everyday was definitely not sterling. I have
one piece of the everyday I swiped from my brothers, because it was a
proper soup spoon instead of an oversize teaspoon, but I have to track
it down to check its marks.


/dps "the even-older everyday was already in the garden and the sandbox
by the time I used it"

[Adam Funk]

On 2021-12-02, Quinn C wrote:

> * Adam Funk:
>
>> On 2021-12-01, Tony Cooper wrote:

>>
>>> On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 18:22:02 +0100, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
>>> Lodder) wrote:
>>>
>>>>Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>

>>>>> On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 4:39:10 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>> > bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > > I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
>>>>> > > But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
>>>>> > > worth buying a new set of silverware?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
>>>>> manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
>>>>
>>>>I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
>>>>Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
>>>>that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
>>>>

>>> You may consider it an abuse, but we don't. "Silverware" is a
>>> commonly used term in the US to describe what is properly called
>>> "flatware", and includes sterling silver utensils, silver plate
>>> utensils, and stainless steel utensils.
>>>
>>> No one writing "silverware" would be corrected for using that term
>>> even if the items being described are cheap stainless.
>>>
>>> In fact, in places that supply plastic utensils, you would not confuse
>>> anyone by asking where the "silverware" was if you needed those
>>> utensils.
>>
>> I wouldn't be *confused* by that, but it does sound really weird to
>> me.
>>
>>> BTW...the US term for serving bowls and other tableware items (except
>>> glassware) that are not eating utensils are properly called
>>> "holloware"...even if they are flat plates that are not hollow.
>>
>> Even "flat plates" are (almost always) slightly concave to corral the
>> sauce.
>
> Sure, but that's not distinguishing serving plates from eating plates.
> If anything, serving plates are more often completely flat (if with a
> bit of a rim.)

If it has a rim, you can pedantically argue that the item is concave.


> Some cheap cutlery is actual literal hollowware. That's when you try to
> lift it and your hand ends up a meter above the table because it weighs
> nothing.

Good for backpacking!

--
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to
chance. ---Robert R. Coveyou

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Pierre Bérégovoy is an interesting (and surprising) one: much more
popular after he committed suicide than he was before. It's only a
matter of time before Joséphine Baker is there. In fact I'm surprised
she isn't there already. Maybe she is, but I haven't found her. She is
on an American stamp, however.

>
> So there is a De Gaulle stamp,
> but it didn't appear until after his death,
> and not while he was head of state of his own Vth republic.
>
> Jan

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

In the early years of our marriage we used silver spoons and forks
every day, for the purely practical reason that they were all we had:
my first wife made off with all the stainless steel, and we couldn't
afford to replace it.

When our apartment was broken into in 1993, we lost a dictionary, a
GameBoy and our Italian money (they didn't bother with the British
money that was in the same place: I felt quite insulted). All our
silver was intact, probably because the thieves didn't think of looking
in the kitchen. Our neighbours were less fortunate.

[Adam Funk]

I assume she's on your mind from the ceremony a few days ago. I
noticed that they are leaving her remains in Monaco but put in the
Panthéon a coffin containing soil from various places where she'd
lived --- is that a common way of doing it?

>> So there is a De Gaulle stamp,
>> but it didn't appear until after his death,
>> and not while he was head of state of his own Vth republic.
>>
>> Jan
>
>


--

a rose that's not from anywhere that you would know or I would care

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Checking at https://www.timbres-de-france.com/ I see that there was a
stamp in her honour in 1994. I'll add her to the wikiparticle.

[J. J. Lodder]

No, it is a recent innovation.
Twenty years ago they had a row about it.
Someone had the bright idea that there really had to be
some more women bodily there, in a fit of faux feminisme.
Someone had the idea that George Sand was just the one they wanted.

Now George Sand was burried where she had wanted to be,
close to the house where she had lived. [1]
Protest were of no avail, they dug her up and carried her away.
(the whole village, I don't know is there was still family alive,
some literary greats if memory serves)
In France you are effectively state property.

BTW, Her house is still there, in its original state,
and it can be visited.
It looks as if Chopin could walk in any moment
to play a nocturne on his own piano,

Jan

[1] By analogy: image some British government official
deciding the have some Brontes dug up in Haworth
as extra feminine filler material for Westminster Abbey.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Yes, but Monaco isn't France. They could dig up anyonz they felt like
if they were buried in France.

> Twenty years ago they had a row about it.
> Someone had the bright idea that there really had to be
> some more women bodily there, in a fit of faux feminisme.
> Someone had the idea that George Sand was just the one they wanted.
>
> Now George Sand was burried where she had wanted to be,
> close to the house where she had lived. [1]
> Protest were of no avail, they dug her up and carried her away.
> (the whole village, I don't know is there was still family alive,
> some literary greats if memory serves)
> In France you are effectively state property.
>
> BTW, Her house is still there, in its original state,
> and it can be visited.
> It looks as if Chopin could walk in any moment
> to play a nocturne on his own piano,
>
> Jan
>
> [1] By analogy: image some British government official
> deciding the have some Brontes dug up in Haworth
> as extra feminine filler material for Westminster Abbey.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 7:22:00 PM UTC-5, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 02-Dec-21 22:48, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > Fewer and fewer countries prohibit the depiction of living people
> > on their stamps. The US changed that rule a number of years ago,
> > and the very first living person explicitly depicted was Daniel Radcliffe.
> > There seem not to have been any since that Harry Potter Movies set.
> Hmm. Did the stamp depict Daniel Radcliffe, or Harry Potter?

The character(s), but the faces of all the actors are clearly recognizable.

They did a set in 1989 to honor the year of the greatest movies, which
depicted the posters of GWTW, Wizard of Oz, Stagecoach, and one other,
which happened not to depict characters of any still-living actors.

> A stamp of David Prowse/Darth Vader in full costume would muddy the
> waters even more.

Have you seen the UK set for *One Man's Army*? About a dozen portraits.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Given that you're expected to slurp your noodles, that's presumably
a feature not a bug.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 8:04:39 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:

> That aside, I like to have several pieces of each to myself, because I
> find it makes the washing more efficient. I don't like to wash the knife
> in the middle of making a sandwich, so I may use up to three knives in
> the process.

That seems a bit ADD. I don't mind if a tiny bit of peanut butter gets
into the jam ("jelly" in the standard phrase), and if I'm doing both
mayonnaise and mustard on a ham & cheese, I can wipe the knife
clean on the bread face. And then another one to cut?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 8:04:43 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
> * J. J. Lodder:

> > The whole point of chopsticks is precisely
> > that you cannot cut with them.
>
> Yes, but just as you may cut potatoes with your fork, it's not unusual
> to cut an omelet or pieces of tofu with chopsticks.
>
> The discussion was about whether that counts as cutting for the purpose
> of naming something cutlery.

The rabbis could get a whole chapter of Talmud out of that.

> On a higher level, I was making fun of the idea that terms like
> "cutlery", "silverware" or "hollowware" should be true to their
> etymology.

We have a word for that -- a certain type of "fallacy."

[Peter T. Daniels]

"Dinnerware" is probably the word on the boxes of 16 pieces.

"Chinaware" might be confined to the good stuff.

[Peter T. Daniels]

The owners have flair.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 03 Dec 2021 00:22:25 -0800, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Isn't silver too soft to hold up to steaks and swedes and carrots?
>Cups should be alright, but even those are probably an alloy of silver

Sterling silver is 92.5% silver with the 7.5% being other metals to
increase strength. Some silverware is marked at "900" or "800"
(meaning 90.0%/80.0%) but are not considered to be sterling silver.

These figures are stamped on each item along with the maker's mark.
The US adopted "925" as the figure for sterling in 1868.

I have a few "coin silver" spoons. They are pieces that are not
considered to be sterling, but have interest and value because they
were made in Colonial times before the 925 standard was adopted.
They are in the 900 range.

Tableknives can have a stainless steel blade and still be considered
as sterling silver flatware if the handle is sterling. Tableknives
are not stamped out in one piece. They are a blade and a handle
fitted together.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 03 Dec 2021 00:12:30 -0800, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Speaking of buying used stuff for handling comestibles, have you seen
>this?
><URL:https://www.theverge.com/22801890/sunbeam-radiant-control-toaster-t20-t35-vista>

I did see, and read that, a few days ago. Our toaster is a bare-bones
cheapie that doesn't do a particularly good job of toasting, but the
Sunbeam in that article sells - used! - for an average of $130. I'm
not that demanding of proper toast.

There is another thread on "Pet Peeves". One of mine is restaurants
that serve toast with breakfast orders but present the toast
unbuttered with little packets of frozen butter. Toast *must* be
buttered when it's hot.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Corollary: toast must be _served_ when it is hot.

When I stayed a few nights at a B&B behind the BM, I had the option of either
a "full English breakfast" or "tea and toast." Having just experienced a "full Irish
breakfast" on the Aer Lingus plane back from Dublin (and anyway I wasn't
in the habit of eating anything early in the morning), I wasn't interested in
risking the former, so I had "tea and toast." They brought a nice pot of tea --
and a toast rack with at least six, or maybe it was eight, slices of toast (my
mind's tongue makes it white bread) held vertically and well separated so
that they could thoroughly dry out on both sides.

All I had heard about English "cuisine" was well confirmed during that visit.
Fortunately I found an Indian buffet restaurant a block or so in another
direction (possibly in the direction of the West End theatres, where that
evening I saw a pre-Broadway tryout of *Kiss of the Spider Woman* with
Chita Rivera).

[Quinn C]

* Adam Funk:

> On 2021-12-02, Quinn C wrote:
>
>> * Adam Funk:
>>
>>> On 2021-12-01, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>>> BTW...the US term for serving bowls and other tableware items (except
>>>> glassware) that are not eating utensils are properly called
>>>> "holloware"...even if they are flat plates that are not hollow.
>>>
>>> Even "flat plates" are (almost always) slightly concave to corral the
>>> sauce.
>>
>> Sure, but that's not distinguishing serving plates from eating plates.
>> If anything, serving plates are more often completely flat (if with a
>> bit of a rim.)
>
> If it has a rim, you can pedantically argue that the item is concave.

You say pedantically, I say "technically". I wouldn't use concave/convex
in everyday contexts unless the item is curved over most of its extent.

--
If someone has a penis (or we think they have a penis) we use
he/him/his pronouns and treat them like a boy/man. If someone
has a vagina (or we think they have a vagina) we use she/her/
hers pronouns and treat them like a girl/woman.
See what I did there? -- Kyl Myers

[Sam Plusnet]

Nicely put.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

I am a little less scrupulous if I am the only person who will use the
thing that might get 'contaminated'.
If it is shared, or might be shared with others, I go the extra mile.

--
Sam Plusnet

[lar3ryca]

I probably knew this at one time, but the jam/jelly thing makes me wonder.
To this Canadian, jam is crushed or shredded fruit, having all the pulp in it,
while jelly is the juice only.

So what do you call the clear, jiggly fruit spread?

--
It must be jelly, 'cause jam don't shake like that."

[lar3ryca]

The police helicopter have FLIR.

[Peter T. Daniels]

In my yout', they were all "jelly" even though some of the jars said "jam"
and some said "preserves." ("Marmalade" didn't count as "jelly..") (I once
made the mistake of reading a book by Steve Allen (the so-called comedian
who invented The Tonight Show) who devoted a chapter to castigating a
waiter at a fancy Southern hotel who did not know what "marmalade" was.
That prompted me to check the Dictionary of American Regional English,
which shows that "marmalade" is used in the Northeast and Midwest but
not in the South. (I don't remember what it had for western areas.)

[J. J. Lodder]

Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> * Peter T. Daniels:
>

> > On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 1:28:30 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
> >> * Peter T. Daniels:

> >>> On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 8:03:31 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> If an American refers to "cutlery", I would assume they are referring
> >>>> to all of the types of knives used in the kitchen for preparing food.
> >>>> A bread kife, a paring knife, and meat knife are "cutlery", but a
> >>>> serving fork or spoon is not. All "cutlery" is stainless steel.
> >>>> Silver or silver plate items just don't cut it.
> >>>
> >>> Does the giant fork paired with the carving knife get to be honorary
> >>> cutlery? Especially if there's a slot for it in the wooden block that
> >>> holds all the non-tableware knives (but sometimes also the steak
> >>> knives, which unaccountably come in sets of six when everything else
> >>> comes in eights)?

> >>
> >> What are the things that come in eights where you live?
> >
> > Place settings -- china and silver. Very elaborate ones come in twelves,
> > starter sets at the discount stores in fours.
>
> So I went on the web site of the Hudson Bay Company, as a representative
> of tradition, and checked out some of their dinnerware and flatware
> sets. Putting aside the real expensive stuff that is priced per setting,
> and you name any number you like, the overwhelming majority of
> pre-packaged sets is now for 4 places. But there are some for 6. It
> could be that those come from Europe and aren't adapted for the market.
>
> I didn't see sets for 8 or 12 places. I guess you're expected to buy two
> or three sets of four.
>

> I noticed one flatware set for 10 people.

The traditional set for Dutch silver is 12 of each,
in a 'cassette', together with the usual serving things.
These were sold as wedding gifts for the rich. [1]

The idea was that silver sets were meant for formal dinners,
so a mere six wouldn't do,

Jan

[1] Out of fashion these days, and old silver tableware
fetches little more than the metal value.
Poor quality antique silver fetches even less,
and is often melted down.

[J. J. Lodder]

Snidely <snide...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Peter Moylan suggested that ...
> > On 02/12/21 10:06, Paul Wolff wrote:
> >
> >> Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
> >> England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
> >> mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from
> >> way back when. They even had their own trademark registry for bladed
> >> products, recognised in English law. 'The Blades' is the current
> >> nickname of Sheffield United Football Club. So far, this supports
> >> PTD. But today's usage goes beyond, and says cutlery is knives, forks
> >> and spoons. If pushed, sporks too, I'm sure.
> >
> > My forks and spoons are definitely cutlery, in my language, but they are
> > not flat enough to be called flatware. The knives are fairly flat.
>
> I think "flatware" as a term came about because people were stamping
> out table service items. Large hammers, rather than castings in molds.

Silver tableware was never cast in molds.
(the result is quite soft, so unnusable)
It is always hammered, originally by hand
later pressed industrially and finished by hand.
Cast silver is restricted to heavy bulk items,
like candle holders, feet for teapots, and so on.

> Works out pretty well for stainless steel, which the Oneida people
> have done well with, and since then just about everybody else.
>
> > I have mixed feelings about the term "silverware". Should silver-plated
> > cutlery qualify? My gut says no.
>
> Isn't silver too soft to hold up to steaks and swedes and carrots?
> Cups should be alright, but even those are probably an alloy of silver.

Yes, usally 835 or 925 (sterling)
The belief that this in necessary is nothing but folklore.
A Dutch firm (Gerritsen) proved it by making
and marketing 999 table silver.
Their methods to achieve this are a trade secret.
They obtained a special 999 hallmark for it.

It was not a commercial succes. More expensive,
and you really need to look at the hallmarks
to see the difference with lower grades,

Jan

[charles]

In article <1pjmrcu.1ep...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,

J. J. Lodder <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
> Snidely <snide...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Peter Moylan suggested that ...
> > > On 02/12/21 10:06, Paul Wolff wrote:
> > >
> > >> Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
> > >> England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
> > >> mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from
> > >> way back when. They even had their own trademark registry for bladed
> > >> products, recognised in English law. 'The Blades' is the current
> > >> nickname of Sheffield United Football Club. So far, this supports
> > >> PTD. But today's usage goes beyond, and says cutlery is knives, forks
> > >> and spoons. If pushed, sporks too, I'm sure.
> > >
> > > My forks and spoons are definitely cutlery, in my language, but they
> > > are not flat enough to be called flatware. The knives are fairly flat.
> >
> > I think "flatware" as a term came about because people were stamping
> > out table service items. Large hammers, rather than castings in molds.

> Silver tableware was never cast in molds.
> (the result is quite soft, so unnusable)
> It is always hammered, originally by hand
> later pressed industrially and finished by hand.

A cousin of mine, produced a 25 setting set of gold cutlery for the, then,
new Scottish Parliament for formal dinners. He said he'd never do a
Government contract again.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

Anyway, AIUI, in "PB & jelly sandwich" as well as "jelly donut", the
distinction is neutralized even for people who distinguish jam from
jelly on its own.

My favorite jelly donuts (in Germany) contain "plum butter".

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 8:04:39 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
>
>> That aside, I like to have several pieces of each to myself, because I
>> find it makes the washing more efficient. I don't like to wash the knife
>> in the middle of making a sandwich, so I may use up to three knives in
>> the process.
>
> That seems a bit ADD.

I guess you mean OCD. Either way, it's not ideal to use clinical
diagnoses so lightly, I think just "obsessive" will do fine.

> I don't mind if a tiny bit of peanut butter gets
> into the jam ("jelly" in the standard phrase), and if I'm doing both
> mayonnaise and mustard on a ham & cheese, I can wipe the knife
> clean on the bread face. And then another one to cut?

I said "up to 3". 2 is more common. And it may play a role that I use a
jar of mustard for many months. Once it's almost empty, I get less
fussy. The worry is not about cross-contamination per se, but about the
introduction of molds and such.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 2:28:04 PM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
...

> The traditional set for Dutch silver is 12 of each,
> in a 'cassette', together with the usual serving things.
> These were sold as wedding gifts for the rich. [1]
>
> The idea was that silver sets were meant for formal dinners,
> so a mere six wouldn't do,
>
> Jan
>
> [1] Out of fashion these days, and old silver tableware
> fetches little more than the metal value.
> Poor quality antique silver fetches even less,
> and is often melted down.

I wonder whether there would be a market for it in the U.S. I
recently saw part of a show on auctioning the contents of
abandoned storage units in Texas (/Storage Wars/), and it
appears that in this country antiques of all kinds are valuable
and there's a sucker born every minute.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Tony Cooper]

I immediately rinse off a knife that was used to spread mustard.
Mustard dries quickly and becomes extremely difficult to remove from
knife.

[Peter Moylan]

At that sort of hotel I leave the toast uneaten. Cold toast is bleah.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Peter Moylan]

To an Australian, the clear stuff is also jam, and jelly is a dessert.

[Tony Cooper]

First, Jan's referring to "poor quality" antique silver, and, second,
he's referring to the European market. Anything that is of"Poor
quality" is not going to have value.

But, old sterling does have value in the US. There are several
companies that buy sterling silverware pieces for re-sale to people
who have a set but are either missing some pieces or are adding pieces
and want to add the same maker and pattern.

Replacements, Ltd

https://www.replacements.com/silver/brands/a?rplSrc

is one I've dealt with. Naturally, the prices they pay are set to
allow them to make a profit when they sell them, and they have to
invest in items that may not sell for quite along time.

Also, sterling silver spoons and forks are re-fashioned into jewelry
and decorative items. As an example, these are earrings made from
silver* spoon handles:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/201817393522

My daughter has a similar pair that she made from spoons I gave her.
A third spoon was made into a dangle for a silver chain and worn as a
necklace. There are many web pages of this type of jewelry and decor
items like wind chimes.

*This pair is made from a Wm Rogers silver plate spoons. It was
easiest example I could find.

[Paul Wolff]

On Fri, 3 Dec 2021, at 18:36:11, Quinn C posted:

I can imagine that your 'plum butter' matches our 'quince cheese', while
being made with a different fruit. Or they may be radically different.
--
Paul