Apparently arbitrary application of article rules
JFH
apparent contradictions or inconsistencies in the article usage in
these sentences? Or, how a student is supposed to know in such
situations which rule to apply? The nature of the nouns in each B/C
pair is the same, and the context for each B/C pair seem the same to
me, so the student would expect to be able to apply the same rule.
A: Where on earth did you get that info?
B: I read it in the paper. (Note the definite article. The rule of
"context" is said to apply here.)
C: I read it in a magazine. (Note the indefinite article. The basic
rule for undefined singular count noun seems to apply here.)
A: Why isn't Jack here today?
B (An American): He's in the hospital. (Definite article. The rule of
"context" is said to apply here.)
C: No, he's in church. (Zero article) (The rule of "activity" or
"function" or "participation" applies here.)
Looking forward to additional examples of this problem AND ideas on
how to deal with it.
Donna Richoux
> Can anybody out there tell me how you would explain to a student the
> apparent contradictions or inconsistencies in the article usage in
> these sentences? Or, how a student is supposed to know in such
> situations which rule to apply? The nature of the nouns in each B/C
> pair is the same, and the context for each B/C pair seem the same to
> me, so the student would expect to be able to apply the same rule.
>
> A: Where on earth did you get that info?
> B: I read it in the paper. (Note the definite article. The rule of
> "context" is said to apply here.)
I believe the underlying original assumption was that every community
was served by one newspaper, so there was no question of which
newspaper. Later, it didn't matter which newspaper. Similar, "I saw on
the evening news..."
> C: I read it in a magazine. (Note the indefinite article. The basic
> rule for undefined singular count noun seems to apply here.)
There are lots of magazines and this has been true for a long time. "I
read it in a book." One of many possible books.
>
> A: Why isn't Jack here today?
> B (An American): He's in the hospital. (Definite article. The rule of
> "context" is said to apply here.)
> C: No, he's in church. (Zero article) (The rule of "activity" or
> "function" or "participation" applies here.)
>
> Looking forward to additional examples of this problem AND ideas on
> how to deal with it.
Try the page on "Articles" in the "Guide to Grammar and Writing" -- it
covers a lot of cases.
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/index2.htm
For "in school, at school, to school" and prison, church, etc, the
common idea is "enrollment" or "beneficiary of services" -- whether you
are there as a student, patient, inmate, or member, as opposed to being,
say, the plumber who has gone there to fix the pipes.
As you say, there's a US/UK+ difference for "in the hospital" vs. "in
hospital". If you're teaching English as a foreign language, have you
been told to teach one kind or the other? It would be nerve-wracking to
constantly teach *both*.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
cybercypher
> Can anybody out there tell me how you would explain to a student
> the apparent contradictions or inconsistencies in the article
> usage in these sentences? Or, how a student is supposed to know in
> such situations which rule to apply?
There's a one-word explanation: idiom.
There are no hard and fast rules that apply. Generally, however,
American English native speakers will say "the {news)paper" instead
of "a paper", but "a (news)paper" is neither wrong nor unheard of nor
rare.
I can't rationalize any "rule of context" for this idiom, except to
say that perhaps everyone used to know what newspaper everyone else
read, so "the paper" must have referred to "the newspaper that read
every day, and you know which one that is". But I just made up that
explanation. I don't necessarily believe it. Magazines, on the other
hand, tend to be read for reasons other than news, so "a magazine"
sounds right to me.
> The nature of the nouns in each B/C pair is the same, and the
> context for each B/C pair seem the same to me, so the student
> would expect to be able to apply the same rule.
>
> A: Where on earth did you get that info?
> B: I read it in the paper. (Note the definite article. The rule of
> "context" is said to apply here.)
> C: I read it in a magazine. (Note the indefinite article. The
> basic rule for undefined singular count noun seems to apply here.)
>
> A: Why isn't Jack here today?
> B (An American): He's in the hospital. (Definite article. The rule
> of "context" is said to apply here.)
> C: No, he's in church. (Zero article) (The rule of "activity" or
> "function" or "participation" applies here.)
Again, the "context" explanation seems nonsense to me. It's strictly
idiomatic. It might have come from the days when there was only one
hospital servicing a large area, but that's not the case today.
The difference between "in church" and "in the church" is that the
former idiomatically means "attending mass" or "participating in a
church service", while the latter idiomatically means that the person
in question is physically in the church building.
This is not rule-governed beyond the rule of idiomaticity, as far as
I can tell.
> Looking forward to additional examples of this problem AND ideas
> on how to deal with it.
Sing a few bars of the chorus of "Just Because":
[quote]
I love you just because
I love you just because
Just because I do, my darlin'
Emotions more than words can help me say
I love you, baby, just because you're you
Just because you're you
[/quote]
Anita Baker - Just Because Lyrics
(Micheal O'Hara, Sammy McKinney & Alex Brown)
http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/Anita-Baker/Just-Because.html
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan.
"It has come to my attention that my opinions are not universally
shared." Scott Adams, The Dilbert Blog, 23 Jan 2007;
http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/ teranews charges a one-time US$3.95
setup fee
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
cybercypher
[...]
> "in hospital". If you're teaching English as a foreign language,
> have you been told to teach one kind or the other? It would be
> nerve-wracking to constantly teach *both*.
Nah, it's easy as pie: "American speakers say 'He's in the hospital',
but British speakers say 'He's in hospital'. They mean the same thing.
Don't ask why. They're both just idiomatic."
Derek Turner
> Can anybody out there tell me how you would explain to a student the
> apparent contradictions or inconsistencies in the article usage in
> these sentences? Or, how a student is supposed to know in such
> situations which rule to apply?
If yopu are telling your students that there are ANY 'rules' in English
then I suggest you look for a new job. Usage is usage, live with it.
Peacenik
news:1171881239....@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Can anybody out there tell me how you would explain to a student the
> apparent contradictions or inconsistencies in the article usage in
> these sentences? Or, how a student is supposed to know in such
> situations which rule to apply? The nature of the nouns in each B/C
> pair is the same, and the context for each B/C pair seem the same to
> me, so the student would expect to be able to apply the same rule.
>
> A: Where on earth did you get that info?
> B: I read it in the paper. (Note the definite article. The rule of
> "context" is said to apply here.)
> C: I read it in a magazine. (Note the indefinite article. The basic
> rule for undefined singular count noun seems to apply here.)
"It's just the way we say it."
Perhaps the origin is that most communities have a major newspaper, and most
residents read it every day. So if you say "the paper", then everyone knows
what you mean. Magazines are differnet: there are lots of them to choose
from and you don't read them daily.
But "the paper" has become so ingrained in our way of speaking that it's an
idiom.
> A: Why isn't Jack here today?
> B (An American): He's in the hospital. (Definite article. The rule of
> "context" is said to apply here.)
> C: No, he's in church. (Zero article) (The rule of "activity" or
> "function" or "participation" applies here.)
These are institutional nouns. The noun "church" belongs to a limited set of
institutions that people are members of/attend regularly/belong to. These
include: "school", "church", "temple" (esp. Jewish), "college", "work",
"prison" and "jail". In the UK, "hospital" and "university" are added to the
list.
Note the at the use of "temple" in this way is almost exclusively used in a
Jewish context.
Don Aitken
<cnelso...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"JFH" <jfhol...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:1171881239....@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> Can anybody out there tell me how you would explain to a student the
>> apparent contradictions or inconsistencies in the article usage in
>> these sentences? Or, how a student is supposed to know in such
>> situations which rule to apply? The nature of the nouns in each B/C
>> pair is the same, and the context for each B/C pair seem the same to
>> me, so the student would expect to be able to apply the same rule.
>>
>> A: Where on earth did you get that info?
>> B: I read it in the paper. (Note the definite article. The rule of
>> "context" is said to apply here.)
>> C: I read it in a magazine. (Note the indefinite article. The basic
>> rule for undefined singular count noun seems to apply here.)
>
>"It's just the way we say it."
>
>Perhaps the origin is that most communities have a major newspaper, and most
>residents read it every day. So if you say "the paper", then everyone knows
>what you mean. Magazines are differnet: there are lots of them to choose
>from and you don't read them daily.
>
I doubt it. In the UK, only a small minority reads local newspapers.
When we say "the paper", we usually mean a national paper, of which
there are more than a dozen to choose from. The one we read is still
"the paper", though.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
contrex
>
> In the UK, only a small minority reads local newspapers.
>
I don't know where you comes from, my dear, but yur in Bristol, us
loves our local press. In a newsagents, asking for "a paper" will get
you the Bristol Evening Post, folded and placed in your hand - if you
want any other national or local newspaper you have to ask for it by
name.
Wood Avens
<cnelso...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"JFH" <jfhol...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:1171881239....@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> A: Why isn't Jack here today?
>> B (An American): He's in the hospital. (Definite article. The rule of
>> "context" is said to apply here.)
>> C: No, he's in church. (Zero article) (The rule of "activity" or
>> "function" or "participation" applies here.)
>
>These are institutional nouns. The noun "church" belongs to a limited set of
>institutions that people are members of/attend regularly/belong to. These
>include: "school", "church", "temple" (esp. Jewish), "college", "work",
>"prison" and "jail". In the UK, "hospital" and "university" are added to the
>list.
It's also the case, though, that in the UK someone would be "at
school" rather than "in school", and the same, generally, for church,
college and work. "In work", in the UK, means "having a job", the
opposite of "out of work".
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Skitt
> "Peacenik" wrote:
>>> A: Why isn't Jack here today?
>>> B (An American): He's in the hospital. (Definite article. The rule
>>> of "context" is said to apply here.)
>>> C: No, he's in church. (Zero article) (The rule of "activity" or
>>> "function" or "participation" applies here.)
>>
>> These are institutional nouns. The noun "church" belongs to a
>> limited set of institutions that people are members of/attend
>> regularly/belong to. These include: "school", "church", "temple"
>> (esp. Jewish), "college", "work", "prison" and "jail". In the UK,
>> "hospital" and "university" are added to the list.
>
> It's also the case, though, that in the UK someone would be "at
> school" rather than "in school", and the same, generally, for church,
> college and work. "In work", in the UK, means "having a job", the
> opposite of "out of work".
In AmE,
- in work
1 : in process of being done
2 of a horse : in training
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/