Kruzitürcken!
Isabelle Cecchini
Leslie Lonsdale-Cooper and Michael Turner sometimes made intriguing
choices in their translations of Hergé's Adventures of Tintin.
For instance, one of the villains in /The Black Island/, a Doctor
(wonder where he got his title) Müller --who will prove to be a
recurring baddie in Tintin's adventures-- tends to exclaim:
"Kruzitürcken!", when the original French version has him say a very
much more French-sounding, if rather theatrical, "Malédiction!" on one
occasion, and a bit old-fashioned "Bigre!" in another.
"Malédiction!" is also translated with a very German "Himmel!" at one
point, and in fact, in the whole book, Müller sounds much more German in
English than he does in French, if that doesn't sound too weird.
The online Leo dictionary tells me that "Kruzitürcken!" might be
translated into English as "Gadzooks!" and Google has remarkably few
hits for it --36 last time I counted, and only some in pages originally
written in German.
I wonder first about the etymology of "Kruzitürcken" in German. Might it
mean something like "Crucify the Turks"?
And rather more importantly, I wonder about the recognition factor of
such an uncommon (except that it mightn't be) German oath to an
English-speaking readership.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Wood Avens
Re your second question, I don't think it would have been recognised
at all, but it would have had (to youthful British ears) a wonderfully
German-like sound to it, exactly as one might imagine a German villain
swearing, especially if one knew no German.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
R H Draney
>
>For instance, one of the villains in /The Black Island/, a Doctor
>(wonder where he got his title) Müller --who will prove to be a
>recurring baddie in Tintin's adventures-- tends to exclaim:
>"Kruzitürcken!", when the original French version has him say a very
>much more French-sounding, if rather theatrical, "Malédiction!" on one
>occasion, and a bit old-fashioned "Bigre!" in another.
>
>"Malédiction!" is also translated with a very German "Himmel!" at one
>point, and in fact, in the whole book, Müller sounds much more German in
>English than he does in French, if that doesn't sound too weird.
>
>The online Leo dictionary tells me that "Kruzitürcken!" might be
>translated into English as "Gadzooks!" and Google has remarkably few
>hits for it --36 last time I counted, and only some in pages originally
>written in German.
That's pushing it...if I were forced to do the translation, I'd go for
"Curses!", which has a long tradition in cartoon villainy...mind you, that
inclination would be greater if I had access to the original....r
--
What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?
Leslie Danks
[...]
> The online Leo dictionary tells me that "Kruzitürcken!" might be
> translated into English as "Gadzooks!" and Google has remarkably few
> hits for it --36 last time I counted, and only some in pages originally
> written in German.
>
> I wonder first about the etymology of "Kruzitürcken" in German. Might it
> mean something like "Crucify the Turks"?
Wiktionary gives this:
[translated quote]
The Kuruc [1] and the Turks laid siege to Vienna. They were therefore the
enemies of the Viennese. Thus the word is a mixture of "Kuruzen" (Kurucs)
and "Türken" (Turks) in the negative sense.
[end quote]
<http://tinyurl.com/3c3zcf>
[1] [Wikipedia quote]
The kuruc (Hungarian: kuruczok/kurucok [sg. kuruc(z)], Slovak: kuruci [sg.
kuruc]) was a term used to denote the armed anti-Habsburg rebels in Royal
Hungary between 1671 and 1711.
The kuruc army were mostly composed of Magyars, Slovaks, Ruthenians and some
Romanians; the leading nobles were usually Magyars.
[end quote]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurucs>
OTOH, the following agrees with Leo:
[quote]
English translation:Damn it!
Expression liked in Bavaria. "Kruzzi" = crucify, "Türkn" = turks. In
(fairly) Eastern parts of Europe Turks have not been liked for centuries
(since they tried to integrate Eastern Europe into their empire).
[endquote]
<http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1087070>
> And rather more importantly, I wonder about the recognition factor of
> such an uncommon (except that it mightn't be) German oath to an
> English-speaking readership.
It seems to be a mild, old-fashioned oath, possibly used occasionally in
Bavaria or Austria. The discussion in the last reference includes:
[quote]
1) [from the person asking for help] It is for a commercial (just so that
the producer (Ami) can understand what is meant in the German commercial -
not actually for production). A very famous SWABIAN!!! soccer player keeps
missing a goal - and "curses" while talking to the audience. I think they
are just trying to make fun of his accent (which is a pain in the *** to
render in English)
2) [one of the answers] If you want to get the regional flavour [...] you
might have to ask a Yorkershireman or a Texan to make your readers get the
idea.
[endquote]
Dr. Aman would be the obvious source of more enlightenment, though I suspect
the expression is under-qualified for inclusion in "Letter to Petey".
--
Les
J. J. Lodder
> Leslie Lonsdale-Cooper and Michael Turner sometimes made intriguing
> choices in their translations of Hergé's Adventures of Tintin.
>
> For instance, one of the villains in /The Black Island/, a Doctor
> (wonder where he got his title) Müller --who will prove to be a
> recurring baddie in Tintin's adventures-- tends to exclaim:
> "Kruzitürcken!", when the original French version has him say a very
> much more French-sounding, if rather theatrical, "Malédiction!" on one
> occasion, and a bit old-fashioned "Bigre!" in another.
Müller is indeed a German?
He might with that name also be of Alsatian origin,
and a native speaker of French.
(like for example le general Schneider)
> "Malédiction!" is also translated with a very German "Himmel!" at one
> point, and in fact, in the whole book, Müller sounds much more German in
> English than he does in French, if that doesn't sound too weird.
Hergé was quite capable of letting le docteur Müller swear in German
in the original French edition, had he thought that appropriate.
Hence 'Malediction !' should be translated into English
with something like 'Damnation!', to remain true to the original.
Best,
Jan
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> Isabelle Cecchini wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > The online Leo dictionary tells me that "Kruzitürcken!" might be
> > translated into English as "Gadzooks!" and Google has remarkably
> > few hits for it --36 last time I counted, and only some in pages
> > originally written in German.
If you check Google with the correct spelling (Kruzitürken), you'll get
about 3,430 hits.
> > I wonder first about the etymology of "Kruzitürcken" in German.
> > Might it mean something like "Crucify the Turks"?
No, absolutely not. It's a combination of "Kruzi-" (from "Kruzifix,"
crucifix) + "Türken" (Turks). "Kruzitürken!" is a mild blasphemy (used
by anyone in Bavaria and Austria, from children to religious old women),
from the strong blasphemy "Kruzifix!" and comparable to the mild English
"Cheese and crackers!" from the strong "Jesus Christ!" or to the mild
French "Tabarnouche!" from the strong "Tabernacle!"
The Austro-Bavarian exclamation "Kruzitürken!" (Grudsediaggn!) is used
to express anger, disappointment, surprise, etc., and is just one of
several euphemisms for the strong blasphemy "Kruzifix!" Others are
"Kruzinesen," "Kruzinal," "Kruziment," and "Kruzifünferl."
The "-türken" part is most likely derived from the Turks' attacks on
Austria in the 16th/17th centuries, but no user of that exclamation
thinks of Turks when yelling it, just as nobody thinks of a coin when
shouting "Kruzifünferl!" ("Fünferl" = a small five-Pfennig coin.)
"Kruzitürken!" is one of the mild euphemisms for "Kruzifix!", but there
are stronger blasphemies based on the latter: "Kruzifixsakrament!"
(crucifix + sacrament) and "Kreuzkruzifix!" (cross + crucifix), ranging
all the way up to the blasphemous chain
"Himmelherrgottsakramentkreuzkruzifixalleluja!" (heaven + Lord-God +
sacrament + cross + crucifix + hallelujah).
Jeez, I could write a book about blasphemies used by Catholics in
Bavaria and Austria (and Italy, Spain, Catalonia, Brazil, France,
Québec, Croatia, etc). Oh, wait, I already wrote about the
Austro-Bavarian ones in my book, pp. 180-181):
http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/boes.html
> Wiktionary gives this:
>
> [translated quote]
> The Kuruc [1] and the Turks laid siege to Vienna. They were therefore
> the enemies of the Viennese. Thus the word is a mixture of "Kuruzen"
> (Kurucs)
BULLSHIT!
> and "Türken" (Turks) in the negative sense.
> [end quote]
> <http://tinyurl.com/3c3zcf>
>
> [1] [Wikipedia quote]
> The kuruc (Hungarian: kuruczok/kurucok [sg. kuruc(z)], Slovak: kuruci
> [sg. kuruc]) was a term used to denote the armed anti-Habsburg rebels
> in Royal Hungary between 1671 and 1711.
> The kuruc army were mostly composed of Magyars, Slovaks, Ruthenians
> and some Romanians; the leading nobles were usually Magyars.
> [end quote]
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurucs>
KRUZIFIXALLELUJA! Such total horseshit! "Kruzi-" has nothing to do
with "Kuruzen" but is the short form of "Kruzifix."
> OTOH, the following agrees with Leo:
>
> [quote]
> English translation: Damn it!
> Expression liked in Bavaria. "Kruzzi" = crucify,
More horseshit. "Kruzi" (spelled correctly) is short for "Kruzifix,"
and "to crucify" is _kreuzigen_.
> "Türkn" = turks. In (fairly) Eastern
> parts of Europe Turks have not been liked for centuries
> (since they tried to integrate Eastern Europe into their empire).
> [endquote]
> <http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1087070>
> > And rather more importantly, I wonder about the recognition factor
> > of such an uncommon (except that it mightn't be) German oath to an
> > English-speaking readership.
Recognition factor of "Kruzitürken" in the USA: zero.
> It seems to be a mild, old-fashioned oath, possibly used occasionally
> in Bavaria or Austria. The discussion in the last reference includes:
It's neither "old-fashioned" nor "possibly used occasionally" but an
extremely common, widely used, and current exclamation in Bavaria and
Austria by (mostly) Catholics.
> [quote]
> 1) [from the person asking for help] It is for a commercial (just so
> that the producer (Ami) can understand what is meant in the German
> commercial - not actually for production). A very famous SWABIAN!!!
> soccer player keeps missing a goal - and "curses" while talking to
> the audience. I think they are just trying to make fun of his accent
> (which is a pain in the *** to render in English)
>
> 2) [one of the answers] If you want to get the regional flavour [...]
> you might have to ask a Yorkershireman or a Texan to make your
> readers get the idea.
> [endquote]
>
> Dr. Aman
Sakrament, Les! Don't call me "Dr. Aman." I'm "Rey," okay?
> would be the obvious source of more enlightenment, though I suspect
> the expression is under-qualified for inclusion in "Letter to Petey".
"Kruzifix-" is also used as an intensifying prefix comparable to English
"goddamn fucking". Petey Daniels is a "Kruzifixarschloch" (goddamn
fuckin' asshole).
~~~ Reinhold (Rey) Aman ~~~
Leslie Danks
> Leslie Danks wrote:
[...]
>> It seems to be a mild, old-fashioned oath, possibly used occasionally
>> in Bavaria or Austria. The discussion in the last reference includes:
>
> It's neither "old-fashioned" nor "possibly used occasionally" but an
> extremely common, widely used, and current exclamation in Bavaria and
> Austria by (mostly) Catholics.
Evidently I spend too little time with cursing Catholics. I must get out
more.
>> Dr. Aman
>
> Sakrament, Les! Don't call me "Dr. Aman." I'm "Rey," okay?
Okay.
--
Les
Isabelle Cecchini
[...]
> Re your second question, I don't think it would have been recognised
> at all, but it would have had (to youthful British ears) a wonderfully
> German-like sound to it, exactly as one might imagine a German villain
> swearing, especially if one knew no German.
Thanks! I was trying to check if "Kruzitürken" might have belonged to a
cartoonish tradition regarding the depiction of Germans, but that
doesn't seem to be the case then.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Isabelle Cecchini
[...]
>
> That's pushing it...if I were forced to do the translation, I'd go for
> "Curses!", which has a long tradition in cartoon villainy...mind you, that
> inclination would be greater if I had access to the original....r
Ah thanks. That's exactly what I was trying to ascertain: whether the
word was of old standing in any form of literature, or in caricature.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Isabelle Cecchini
[...]
> It seems to be a mild, old-fashioned oath, possibly used occasionally in
> Bavaria or Austria.
[...]
Thanks, Leslie. You and Rey agree that it's a rather mild expression.
The translators of Tintin got that right at least, even if they misspelt
the word.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Isabelle Cecchini
[...]
>
> If you check Google with the correct spelling (Kruzitürken), you'll get
> about 3,430 hits.
Thank you, Rey. That's really much better! The translators of Tintin
consistently use the wrong spelling, which in retrospect I find rather
odd, given the fact that they went to the trouble of finding a mild oath
which wouldn't even be familiar to their readers.
>>> I wonder first about the etymology of "Kruzitürcken" in German.
>>> Might it mean something like "Crucify the Turks"?
>
> No, absolutely not. It's a combination of "Kruzi-" (from "Kruzifix,"
> crucifix) + "Türken" (Turks). "Kruzitürken!" is a mild blasphemy (used
> by anyone in Bavaria and Austria, from children to religious old women),
> from the strong blasphemy "Kruzifix!" and comparable to the mild English
> "Cheese and crackers!" from the strong "Jesus Christ!" or to the mild
> French "Tabarnouche!" from the strong "Tabernacle!"
[...]
Thanks a lot for your detailed and lucidly expressed explanations, Rey.
I'll snip the rest, but don't you believe I haven't appreciated it.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Isabelle Cecchini
[about Dr Müller, a villain and Tintin's enemy]
> Müller is indeed a German?
> He might with that name also be of Alsatian origin,
> and a native speaker of French.
> (like for example le general Schneider)
[...]
You're right. There's actually not one clue in /L'Ile noire/ about
Müller's nationality or national origin. Hergé makes him speak
absolutely standard French, with no hint whatsoever of any
German-sounding expression.
It was the British translators' choice to pepper his speech, in English,
with "Ja', "Ach", "Himmel", and, of course, "Kruzitür(c)ken".
--
Isabelle Cecchini
J. J. Lodder
> J. J. Lodder a écrit :
>
> [about Dr Müller, a villain and Tintin's enemy]
>
> > Müller is indeed a German?
> > He might with that name also be of Alsatian origin,
> > and a native speaker of French.
> > (like for example le general Schneider)
> [...]
>
>
> You're right. There's actually not one clue in /L'Ile noire/ about
> Müller's nationality or national origin. Hergé makes him speak
> absolutely standard French, with no hint whatsoever of any
> German-sounding expression.
Let's say that Hergé was a lot cleverer than his translators.
(or his English readers)
He had no need for cheap gimmicks,
like having Müller shout 'Donnerwetter!'
or some other obviuosly German curse.
> It was the British translators' choice to pepper his speech, in English,
> with "Ja', "Ach", "Himmel", and, of course, "Kruzitür(c)ken".
He may even have been a Belgian,
from the officially German speaking part of Belgium perhaps.
Note that <www.familienaam.be> gives 1200+ hits on Müller,
mostly from where you woud expect,
but also heavily from the Antwerp region.
Note also that the original edition is quoted to 1936,
but I have never seen it.
Both the French edition and the English edition I have seen
date to 1966, and have obviously been updated very much,
by adapting the decor, planes, cars, etc..
The result is an amusing anachronism,
wth some details obviously thirty-ish,
some modernised to the sixties.
I have no idea whether or not an English version
of the original edition exists,
and what le docteur Müller may have said in it,
Jan
PS I did look up the good Dr Müller is French and English.
He says 'Malediction !' often, it seems to be his stop word,
but only once is it translated to 'Kruziturcken!'
as far as I saw at first glance.
The other translations of'Malediction !'
are more standard. (as you no doubt know)
Robert Bannister
> Let's say that Hergé was a lot cleverer than his translators.
Perhaps the translators of Goscinny and Uderzo did better: I've read
Asterix in French, English and German and am always amazed at how
cleverly the translators got the ideas across, even though they often
used a different play on words.
--
Rob Bannister
J. J. Lodder
I found the English translation often uninspired,
with apparently and word ending in -ix serving as a name.
OTOH they do have some very English finds,
like the centurion Appianglorius.
There is a list somewhere on the net of all Asterix names
in all languages, but I haven't bookmarked it.
Best,
Jan
mUs1Ka
news:1ieripp.xuy...@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
> Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>
>>
>> > Let's say that Hergé was a lot cleverer than his translators.
>>
>> Perhaps the translators of Goscinny and Uderzo did better: I've read
>> Asterix in French, English and German and am always amazed at how
>> cleverly the translators got the ideas across, even though they often
>> used a different play on words.
>
> I found the English translation often uninspired,
> with apparently and word ending in -ix serving as a name.
> OTOH they do have some very English finds,
> like the centurion Appianglorius.
>
http://www.literarytranslation.com/workshops/asterix/
--
Ray
UK
Mike M
It's been a few years, but I seem to recall that Asterix in Latin was
particularly good.
Mike M
Mike M
No, not in my lifetime, anyway. Most German villains (and there have
been a LOT of them in UK comics) would say things like "Gott in
Himmel!", "Donner und Blitzen!", "Teufel!" or simply "Ach!"
Japanese soldiers in the act of being shot by heroic Brits tended to
stick to "Aieee!"
Mike M
Leslie Danks
I wonder if we can trace Euroscepticism back to the "Comic for a good long
read" (IIR that C). I was more into "Wilson" and "The Tough of the Track",
meself - probably the reason I ended up as a slightly scruffy
Eurobefürworter. Did the Mekon ever say "kruzimilkyway"? - or am I
confusing that with an ad for chocolate bars?
--
Les
Mike M
During the Vietnam War I could never hear references to the Mekong
Delta without picturing a green man with a very large cranium.
Mike M
Mike M
> Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > > Let's say that Hergé was a lot cleverer than his translators.
>
> > Perhaps the translators of Goscinny and Uderzo did better: I've read
> > Asterix in French, English and German and am always amazed at how
> > cleverly the translators got the ideas across, even though they often
> > used a different play on words.
>
> I found the English translation often uninspired,
> with apparently and word ending in -ix serving as a name.
>
I'll bet it was only copyright that stopped them from using
"Weetabix".
> OTOH they do have some very English finds,
> like the centurion Appianglorius.
>
Yes, that IS good.
Mike M
Mike M
>
> I found the English translation often uninspired,
> with apparently and word ending in -ix serving as a name.
>
How many people do you know who think that the word for * is
"asterix", rather than "asterisk"?
Too many, I'll warrant.
Mike M
Pat Durkin
Asteri(c)k
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<mikm...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>On 2 Apr, 09:52, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
>
>>
>> I found the English translation often uninspired,
>> with apparently and word ending in -ix serving as a name.
>>
>
>How many people do you know who think that the word for * is
>"asterix", rather than "asterisk"?
Need you aks?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
J. J. Lodder
I don't think Hergé had any association in mind
that the Germans must automatically be the baddies.
It appears from his works that he was deliberately trying
to have an explicitly international cast,
with distinctive names that are clearly associated
with nationalities or languages.
Not just Müller, but also Oliveira da Figueira, Allan Thomson,
Bianca Castafiore, Alcazar, Rastapopoulos, and so on.
(and even Captain Haddock, orinally)
Since our intrepid young reporter
is usually on the track of crimes or conspiracies
about half of the cast must be baddies.
If there is any particular nationality
that is painted unfavourably by Hergé
it must be the Brits.
He disapproved strongly of their ways in Palestine and the Arab world,
so he let them beat up our reporter for being too inquisitive.
(at least in the original edition, later modified)
Jan
Mitch
Sorry, I'm American. I just cannot come up with any pronunciation that
makes this work. Any clues?
Mitch
the Omrud
God Save the Queen! The bit after the plums.
--
David
Mitch
Oh. Argh. Yes. I get it now (after reading). But plums?
Mitch
Mitch
http://members.aol.com/OlivThill/asterix/asterix_names.htm
Mitch
the Omrud
Send her Victorias.
--
David
R H Draney
It's nice to see the powerful resources of the Internet are being brought to
bear on matters of vital importance....r
--
What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?
J. J. Lodder
With some of the Asterix jokes it took me years to get them.
The 'aha erlebnis' is part of the fun,
Don't ask, it will come,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
J. J. Lodder
That wasn't the one,
but it covers more languages,
for fewer characters though.
The one I saw once had apart from Les Gaulois
an endless list of all those Romans,
Jan
Robert Bannister
> Mitch filted:
>
>>On Apr 2, 4:52 am, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
>>
>>>There is a list somewhere on the net of all Asterix names
>>>in all languages, but I haven't bookmarked it.
>>
>>http://members.aol.com/OlivThill/asterix/asterix_names.htm
>
>
> It's nice to see the powerful resources of the Internet are being brought to
> bear on matters of vital importance....r
>
>
The Italian ones seem woefully uninspired and, in some cases, possibly
miss the point.
--
Rob Bannister
J. J. Lodder
They are the best in the sense that they are true to the original.
How could they possibly miss the point?
Jan
Peter Moylan
Most of the originals use a play on words that makes sense in French but
wouldn't mean much to someone who didn't understand French. The Italian
"translations" seem to require the reader to understand French to get
the point.
Being true to the original _word_ is not the point. The point is to be
true to the concept, and the concept involves word play.
An example of a good translation is when French "Idéfix" became
"Dogmatix" in English. The joke in English is different from the joke in
French - although, as a bonus, the substitution comes close to being a
translation - but it retains the essential point, which is that there
would be some sort of wordplay involved. Would a native Italian speaker
see "Idefix" and think "idea fissa"? Somehow I doubt it.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Mitch
> An example of a good translation is when French "Idéfix" became
> "Dogmatix" in English. The joke in English is different from the joke in
> French
Is there more to the joke in French? In French I see only a gaulish
name, and a French phrase 'idée fixe' (related to personality of the
dog), but in English there's the name, there's the personality
(dogmatic), and there's the 'dog' part.
Mitch
Mitch
Here's only English:
ftp://ftp.cwi.nl/pub/dik/strips/Asterix.Anno
http://asterix.openscroll.org/books/asterix_the_gaul.html
(each volume has a table of the names that appear)
Wikipedia in English gives links to other languages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurring_characters_in_Asterix
Mitch
Mike M
In "Asterix and Cleopatra" it took me a while to notice that the sound
effects coming out of the Egyptian musicians' instruments (and I
quote): "Zing!" "Boom!" "Ta-ra-ra!" were lyrics from the song "Roll
Out The Barrel".
Mike M
J. J. Lodder
> On 10/04/08 19:16, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >> R H Draney wrote:
> >>> Mitch filted:
> >>>
> >>>> On Apr 2, 4:52 am, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> There is a list somewhere on the net of all Asterix names
> >>>>> in all languages, but I haven't bookmarked it.
> >>>> http://members.aol.com/OlivThill/asterix/asterix_names.htm
> >>>
> >>> It's nice to see the powerful resources of the Internet are being
> >>> brought to bear on matters of vital importance....r
> >>>
> >> The Italian ones seem woefully uninspired and, in some cases, possibly
> >> miss the point.
> >
> > They are the best in the sense that they are true to the original.
> > How could they possibly miss the point?
>
> Most of the originals use a play on words that makes sense in French but
> wouldn't mean much to someone who didn't understand French. The Italian
> "translations" seem to require the reader to understand French to get
> the point.
Quel cruauté!
> Being true to the original _word_ is not the point. The point is to be
> true to the concept, and the concept involves word play.
Perhaps the Italians haven't invented 'dumbing down' yet?
> An example of a good translation is when French "Idéfix" became
> "Dogmatix" in English. The joke in English is different from the joke in
> French - although, as a bonus, the substitution comes close to being a
> translation - but it retains the essential point, which is that there
> would be some sort of wordplay involved.
That one has always struck me as particularly dumb. (and ugly)
Anyway, a translator should translate,
he shouldn't try to appear as smarter than the original authoer.
> Would a native Italian speaker
> see "Idefix" and think "idea fissa"? Somehow I doubt it.
I have no idea, not being an Italian,
but I do think that Italians might be snmarter,
Jan
Robert Bannister
> Peter Moylan <pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> wrote:
>
>
>>An example of a good translation is when French "Idéfix" became
>>"Dogmatix" in English. The joke in English is different from the joke in
>>French - although, as a bonus, the substitution comes close to being a
>>translation - but it retains the essential point, which is that there
>>would be some sort of wordplay involved.
>
>
> That one has always struck me as particularly dumb. (and ugly)
> Anyway, a translator should translate,
> he shouldn't try to appear as smarter than the original authoer.
Wrong. A translator should attempt to convey the ideas and style of the
author in another language. You seem to be implying that word for word
translation is sufficient. "Dogmatix" is a particularly good
translation; some of the others are clever, but don't work quite so well.
>
>
>>Would a native Italian speaker
>>see "Idefix" and think "idea fissa"? Somehow I doubt it.
>
>
> I have no idea, not being an Italian,
> but I do think that Italians might be snmarter,
In that case, they would do better to read the entire thing in French
instead of in a translation that is not a translation. It is very hard
to translate jokes, especially those that rely on word play, but I think
most of the Asterix translators have been inspired.
--
Rob Bannister
Jitze
For those interested in this kind of thing (how to "translate" between
languages) I can recommend the book "Le Ton Beau de Marot" by
Douglas R. Hofstadter (Yep, same guy who did the Gödel Escher Bach
thing) Despite the title, it is written in English, and its subtitle
is _In Praise of the Music of Language_ (obAUE) If you've never
read anything by this guy, you might check him out. But beware,
his books cover the gamut from heavy math (Metamagical Themas)
to Literary Translation to the aforemetioned _Gödel Escher Bach_
which can't be described in a soundbite.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Hofstadter
It is a big tome, and not particulalryl light reading, but a brilliant
exposition on the problems of translating (word for word, or emotion,
or rhythm or word play/double entendre etc. etc.). And not to
give the whole thing away, but there is a kick in the tail of the book
which will bring a lump to you throat.
Jitze
J. J. Lodder
Probably just a coincidence.
The same words (with slightly different phonetics)
are present in the French original,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > Peter Moylan <pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>An example of a good translation is when French "Idéfix" became
> >>"Dogmatix" in English. The joke in English is different from the joke in
> >>French - although, as a bonus, the substitution comes close to being a
> >>translation - but it retains the essential point, which is that there
> >>would be some sort of wordplay involved.
> >
> >
> > That one has always struck me as particularly dumb. (and ugly)
> > Anyway, a translator should translate,
> > he shouldn't try to appear as smarter than the original author.
>
> Wrong. A translator should attempt to convey the ideas and style of the
> author in another language.
That's your idea of what a translator should do.
Can't you see that other ideas about that are possible?
> You seem to be implying that word for word
> translation is sufficient.
Your straw man.
> "Dogmatix" is a particularly good
> translation; some of the others are clever, but don't work quite so well.
Idefix isn't a joke, and it isn't a wordplay.
It is just a word (two actually) that can be made to end in -ix,
and that's all there is to it.
It shouldn't be 'translated' by a translator
who is trying to be funnier than Goscinny.
Jan
Amethyst Deceiver
ster.demon.nl says...
> Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> > J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >
> > > Peter Moylan <pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>An example of a good translation is when French "Idéfix" became
> > >>"Dogmatix" in English. The joke in English is different from the joke in
> > >>French - although, as a bonus, the substitution comes close to being a
> > >>translation - but it retains the essential point, which is that there
> > >>would be some sort of wordplay involved.
> > >
> > >
> > > That one has always struck me as particularly dumb. (and ugly)
> > > Anyway, a translator should translate,
> > > he shouldn't try to appear as smarter than the original author.
> >
> > Wrong. A translator should attempt to convey the ideas and style of the
> > author in another language.
>
> That's your idea of what a translator should do.
> Can't you see that other ideas about that are possible?
Actually, it's not just Robert's idea. It's the idea taught to
professional translators.
> > You seem to be implying that word for word
> > translation is sufficient.
>
> Your straw man.
>
> > "Dogmatix" is a particularly good
> > translation; some of the others are clever, but don't work quite so well.
>
> Idefix isn't a joke, and it isn't a wordplay.
> It is just a word (two actually) that can be made to end in -ix,
> and that's all there is to it.
That's just your opinion.
--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
J. Lodder) wrote:
>
>Idefix isn't a joke, and it isn't a wordplay.
>It is just a word (two actually) that can be made to end in -ix,
>and that's all there is to it.
>
It is made up of a two-word phrase which has a meaning to those
who understand French.
The name has been constructed by the author because of the
meaning of the phrase from which it is made.
>It shouldn't be 'translated' by a translator
>who is trying to be funnier than Goscinny.
The majority of Anglophone readers would not recognise the
phrase on which Idefix is based and would know its ('idée fixe')
meaning.
If the name is not converted into an English equivalent then the
author's intended meaning will be lost.
My knowledge of non-English languages is almost zero so I'll
have to ask a question about translation rather than give an
example.
Jan, how would you translate into your native language "He has a
bee in his bonnet."?
Unless your language has the same idiom "bee in ... bonnet"
(translated word-for-word) then any meaningful translation has
to be into an equivalent idiom in your language or into a
straightforwardly descriptive phrase.
Language is used to convey meaning. It is the translator's job
to transfer the meaning from the original in one language into a
version in a different language.
Mike M
Could be, but's it's a helluva coincidence if so.
Roll Out The Barrel, we'll have a barrel of fun
Roll Out The Barrel, we'll have the blues on the run
Zing, boom, ta-ra-ra, we'll have a song of good cheer
Now's the time to Roll Out The Barrel, 'cause the gang's all here
Mike M
Mike M
Damn, more expense. I HAVE to have that.
Mike M
J. J. Lodder
See below.
> Roll Out The Barrel, we'll have a barrel of fun
> Roll Out The Barrel, we'll have the blues on the run
> Zing, boom, ta-ra-ra, we'll have a song of good cheer
> Now's the time to Roll Out The Barrel, 'cause the gang's all here
I know, I looked it up before replying.
The version I found differs by one letter from your's:
(and is much better, with the extra rhyme)
===
Roll out the barrel, we'll have a barrel of fun
Roll out the barrel, we've got the blues on the run
Zing boom tararrel, ring out a song of good cheer
Now's the time to roll the barrel, for the gang's all here
===
Did you look it up or quote from memory?
Anyway, I have now also looked the original French
Cleo's unpretentious little outing is accompanied by:
DZIM! BOUM! TARATATARiii (should be i-s in dotted small caps)
The English translation I have does not have your text.
Instead the music is translated into:
ZING! BOOM! TANTANTARA!!!
It doesn't even scan into your song.
Perhaps you have yet another (American?) translation?
Best,
Jan
Mike M
Memory. See below.
> Anyway, I have now also looked the original French
> Cleo's unpretentious little outing is accompanied by:
> DZIM! BOUM! TARATATARiii (should be i-s in dotted small caps)
> The English translation I have does not have your text.
> Instead the music is translated into:
> ZING! BOOM! TANTANTARA!!!
> It doesn't even scan into your song.
> Perhaps you have yet another (American?) translation?
>
Ah. OK. I wonder if this is one of those "clever" translations that
we've been discussing, and that the translator *was* thinking of "Roll
Out The Barrel" but didn't get it quite right.
I don't have the book to hand, but if I did it would be the British
one, as That's What I Am.
Mike M
Peter Moylan
Oh, I agree. In fact, I think the English version is superior in this
case, although part of the superiority becomes clear only if one knows
the French original.
Donna Richoux
> On 11 Apr, 12:43, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
> > Mike M <mikmoo...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > In "Asterix and Cleopatra" it took me a while to notice that the sound
> > > > > effects coming out of the Egyptian musicians' instruments (and I
> > > > > quote): "Zing!" "Boom!" "Ta-ra-ra!" were lyrics from the song "Roll
> > > > > Out The Barrel".
> >
> > > > Probably just a coincidence.
> > > > The same words (with slightly different phonetics)
> > > > are present in the French original,
> >
> > > Could be, but's it's a helluva coincidence if so.
I think it *is* coincidence, and not particularly helluvic.
Google Books shows that "zing boom" and "boom zing" were used in various
comic songs as a kind of sound effect going back to the 1880s
(apparently, given the erratic nature of Google Books listings).
Definitely the early 1900s at least.
But Digital Tradition shows "The Beer Barrel Polka" (Roll Out the
Barrel) wasn't published in English until 1939, translated from Czech.
That's quite recent for a well-known song.
I didn't bother searching for "Tarara," given its various possible
spellings (such as the alteration mentioned to "Tararrel").
"Tarara Boom-di-ay," however spelled, is a song older than the Beer
Barrel Polka, and it seems like obvious onomatopoeia for a trumpet....
"The Best Loved Songs of the American People" gives the original title
of that one as "Ta-ra-ra Boom-der-é"; published in 1891 by Henry Sayers
who heard it "in a notorious St. Louis cabaret."
Anyway, my point is that zing, boom, and tarara predate the Beer Barrel
Polka.
> > See below.
> >
> > > Roll Out The Barrel, we'll have a barrel of fun
> > > Roll Out The Barrel, we'll have the blues on the run
> > > Zing, boom, ta-ra-ra, we'll have a song of good cheer
> > > Now's the time to Roll Out The Barrel, 'cause the gang's all here
> >
> > I know, I looked it up before replying.
> > The version I found differs by one letter from your's:
> > (and is much better, with the extra rhyme)
> > ===
> > Roll out the barrel, we'll have a barrel of fun
> > Roll out the barrel, we've got the blues on the run
> > Zing boom tararrel, ring out a song of good cheer
> > Now's the time to roll the barrel, for the gang's all here
> > ===
> > Did you look it up or quote from memory?
> >
>
> Memory. See below.
>
> > Anyway, I have now also looked the original French
> > Cleo's unpretentious little outing is accompanied by:
> > DZIM! BOUM! TARATATARiii (should be i-s in dotted small caps)
Google Books: French pages shows two hits for <dzim boum> in the 1890s,
one of them being:
l'orchestre fait : dzim boum, boum
> > The English translation I have does not have your text.
> > Instead the music is translated into:
> > ZING! BOOM! TANTANTARA!!!
> > It doesn't even scan into your song.
> > Perhaps you have yet another (American?) translation?
It makes me think of "Tan-tiv-ee," the traditional English rendering of
the hunting horn.
> Ah. OK. I wonder if this is one of those "clever" translations that
> we've been discussing, and that the translator *was* thinking of "Roll
> Out The Barrel" but didn't get it quite right.
See above. It's a "clever" translation in that these are all borrowings
from a shared cultural heritage.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
the Omrud
Skitt
> Mitch wrote:
>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> An example of a good translation is when French "Idéfix" became
>>> "Dogmatix" in English. The joke in English is different from the
>>> joke in French
>>
>> Is there more to the joke in French? In French I see only a gaulish
>> name, and a French phrase 'idée fixe' (related to personality of the
>> dog), but in English there's the name, there's the personality
>> (dogmatic), and there's the 'dog' part.
>
> Oh, I agree. In fact, I think the English version is superior in this
> case, although part of the superiority becomes clear only if one knows
> the French original.
Let's not obsess about this.
--
Skitt
Still posting after all these years ...
Mike Lyle
wrote:
> In article <1if86ry.nbz92jxi9v...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>, nospam@de-
> ster.demon.nl says...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> > > J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > > > Peter Moylan <pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> wrote:
>
> > > >>"Dogmatix" in English. The joke in English is different from the joke in
> > > >>French - although, as a bonus, the substitution comes close to being a
> > > >>translation - but it retains the essential point, which is that there
> > > >>would be some sort of wordplay involved.
>
> > > > That one has always struck me as particularly dumb. (and ugly)
> > > > Anyway, a translator should translate,
> > > > he shouldn't try to appear as smarter than the original author.
>
> > > Wrong. A translator should attempt to convey the ideas and style of the
> > > author in another language.
>
> > That's your idea of what a translator should do.
> > Can't you see that other ideas about that are possible?
>
> Actually, it's not just Robert's idea. It's the idea taught to
> professional translators.
>
> > > You seem to be implying that word for word
> > > translation is sufficient.
>
> > Your straw man.
>
> > > "Dogmatix" is a particularly good
> > > translation; some of the others are clever, but don't work quite so well.
>
> > Idefix isn't a joke, and it isn't a wordplay.
> > It is just a word (two actually) that can be made to end in -ix,
> > and that's all there is to it.
>
> That's just your opinion.
I'm surprised our own Pacifix and Atlantix haven't weighed in on a
subject I'd have thought so near to their hearts. Maybe they're
spellbound by a fine opening barrage (Ballistix) from Jan.
--
Mike.
James Silverton
S> Peter Moylan wrote:
??>> Mitch wrote:
??>>> Peter Moylan wrote:
??>>>> An example of a good translation is when French "Idéfix"
??>>>> became "Dogmatix" in English. The joke in English is
??>>>> different from the joke in French
??>>>
??>>> Is there more to the joke in French? In French I see only
??>>> a gaulish name, and a French phrase 'idée fixe' (related
??>>> to personality of the dog), but in English there's the
??>>> name, there's the personality (dogmatic), and there's the
??>>> 'dog' part.
??>>
??>> Oh, I agree. In fact, I think the English version is
??>> superior in this case, although part of the superiority
??>> becomes clear only if one knows the French original.
S> Let's not obsess about this.
Possibly, this is not the place to discuss it but I wonder why
official French added a pronounced "x" to the name of a place
used to be called Chamouni: According to The Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2007/nov/19/chamonix.skiing
only Parisians pronounce the "x" and neither British nor locals
do. I suppose the British might retain the local pronunciation
since Chamonix was originally developed for British tourists.
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
LFS
>
> For those interested in this kind of thing (how to "translate" between
> languages) I can recommend the book "Le Ton Beau de Marot" by
> Douglas R. Hofstadter (Yep, same guy who did the Gödel Escher Bach
> thing) Despite the title, it is written in English, and its subtitle
> is _In Praise of the Music of Language_ (obAUE) If you've never
> read anything by this guy, you might check him out. But beware,
> his books cover the gamut from heavy math (Metamagical Themas)
> to Literary Translation to the aforemetioned _Gödel Escher Bach_
> which can't be described in a soundbite.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Hofstadter
>
> It is a big tome, and not particulalryl light reading, but a brilliant
> exposition on the problems of translating (word for word, or emotion,
> or rhythm or word play/double entendre etc. etc.). And not to
> give the whole thing away, but there is a kick in the tail of the book
> which will bring a lump to you throat.
>
Indeed, one of the very few books that I have read that actually changed
the way I think about language. It prompted me to write to DH and we
had an interesting correspondence about Jewish jokes. I have bought
copies for several friends but I don't think any of them have been as
deeply impressed by it as I am.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
J. J. Lodder
> On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:58:21 +0200, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J.
> J. Lodder) wrote:
>
> >
> >Idefix isn't a joke, and it isn't a wordplay.
> >It is just a word (two actually) that can be made to end in -ix,
> >and that's all there is to it.
> >
> It is made up of a two-word phrase which has a meaning to those
> who understand French.
>
> The name has been constructed by the author because of the
> meaning of the phrase from which it is made.
>
> >It shouldn't be 'translated' by a translator
> >who is trying to be funnier than Goscinny.
>
> The majority of Anglophone readers would not recognise the
> phrase on which Idefix is based and would know its ('idée fixe')
> meaning.
Goscinny was no adherent of your 'dumbing down' theory.
On the contrary he inserted jokes
that often require some inventiveness to see thee point.
Your majority of dumb anglophones might look at
<http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idee+fixe>
to become slightly less dumb.
> If the name is not converted into an English equivalent then the
> author's intended meaning will be lost.
>
> My knowledge of non-English languages is almost zero so I'll
> have to ask a question about translation rather than give an
> example.
>
> Jan, how would you translate into your native language "He has a
> bee in his bonnet."?
>
> Unless your language has the same idiom "bee in ... bonnet"
> (translated word-for-word) then any meaningful translation has
> to be into an equivalent idiom in your language or into a
> straightforwardly descriptive phrase.
>
> Language is used to convey meaning. It is the translator's job
> to transfer the meaning from the original in one language into a
> version in a different language.
Jokes do not have to convey meaning,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
> In message <1if5cus.1fg...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>
> J. <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
> > Mitch <mah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> On Apr 2, 7:12 am, Mike M <mikmoo...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >> > On 2 Apr, 09:52, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >> > > > J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > > > Let's say that Hergé was a lot cleverer than his translators.
> >> >
> >> > > > Perhaps the translators of Goscinny and Uderzo did better: I've read
> >> > > > Asterix in French, English and German and am always amazed at how
> >> > > > cleverly the translators got the ideas across, even though they often
> >> > > > used a different play on words.
>
> I think the translations for Asterix have been brilliant.
Some, like the already mentioned centurion Appianglorious.
Most are mediocre however, and the English translators
translate too much, while trying to be more clever than Goscinny.
> >> > > I found the English translation often uninspired,
> >> > > with apparently and word ending in -ix serving as a name.
>
> Much like the original French.
Indeed. However, Goscinny when mediocre is a given,
and translators shouldn't try to rewrite to improve.
> > With some of the Asterix jokes it took me years to get them.
>
> I've been reading through the whole series in order for a while now.
>
> That is, in the original order as written, not the translation order which
> is quite different.
[1]
And no doubt you'll still find thinks you overlooked
when picking them up again,
Jan
[1] For those who don't have it at hand,
the canonical order is:
===
T01 - Astérix le gaulois
T02 - La Serpe D'or
T03 - Astérix Et Les Goths
T04 - Astérix Gladiateur
T05 - Le Tour De Gaule D'Astérix
T06 - Astérix Et Cleopatre
T07 - Le Combat Des Chefs
T08 - Astérix Chez Les Bretons
T09 - Astérix Et Les Normands
T10 - Astérix Légionnaire
T11 - Le Bouclier Arverne
T12 - Astérix Aux Jeux Olympiques
T13 - Astérix Et Le Chaudron
T14 - Astérix En Hispanie
T15 - La Zizanie
T16 - Astérix Chez Les Helvètes
T17 - Le Domaine Des Dieux
T18 - Les Lauriers De Cesar
T19 - Le Devin
T20 - Astérix En Corse
T21 - Le Cadeau De César
T22 - La Grande Traversée
T23 - Obélix Et Compagnie
T24 - Astérix Chez Les Belges
T25 - Le Grand Fossé
T26 - L'Odyssée D'Astérix
T27 - Le Fils D'Astérix
T28 - Astérix Chez Rahazade
T29 - Astérix La Rose Et Le Glaive
T30 - La Galère D'Obélix
T31 - Astérix Et Latraviata
T32 - Le Ciel Lui Tombe Sur La Tête
T24 is the last one one which Goscinny worked,
and the rest (Uderzo only) is best ignored.
J. J. Lodder
The Dutch are fortunate in having a choice
between British and American editions of all books.
You are fortunate though as far as Asterix is concerned.
I've been told that the American translation is very uninspired,
and that Americans prefer the English version,
if they can get it.
Best,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
> Mike M <mikm...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 11 Apr, 12:43, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
> > > Mike M <mikmoo...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > In "Asterix and Cleopatra" it took me a while to notice that the
> > > > > > sound effects coming out of the Egyptian musicians' instruments
> > > > > > (and I quote): "Zing!" "Boom!" "Ta-ra-ra!" were lyrics from the
> > > > > > song "Roll Out The Barrel".
> > >
> > > > > Probably just a coincidence.
> > > > > The same words (with slightly different phonetics)
> > > > > are present in the French original,
> > >
> > > > Could be, but's it's a helluva coincidence if so.
>
> I think it *is* coincidence, and not particularly helluvic.
>
> Google Books shows that "zing boom" and "boom zing" were used in various
> comic songs as a kind of sound effect going back to the 1880s
> (apparently, given the erratic nature of Google Books listings).
> Definitely the early 1900s at least.
And so well known that it was used in at least one book title:
Nicholas Freeling, Tsing-Boum!
> But Digital Tradition shows "The Beer Barrel Polka" (Roll Out the
> Barrel) wasn't published in English until 1939, translated from Czech.
> That's quite recent for a well-known song.
>
> I didn't bother searching for "Tarara," given its various possible
> spellings (such as the alteration mentioned to "Tararrel").
> "Tarara Boom-di-ay," however spelled, is a song older than the Beer
> Barrel Polka, and it seems like obvious onomatopoeia for a trumpet....
> "The Best Loved Songs of the American People" gives the original title
> of that one as "Ta-ra-ra Boom-der-é"; published in 1891 by Henry Sayers
> who heard it "in a notorious St. Louis cabaret."
Another coincidence.
The 'Dutch national street song' is also a 'Tarara-boem-diee'
and it is also said to date back to 1891.
My guss is that it is just a straight translation from the original
with the translators adapting the phonetics a bit,
Jan
PS Dear Cleo leaves (in her usual quiet and unobtrusive style)
to the sound of
TADZIM! TADZOUM! TARARIIIIII (Original)
or
ZING! BOOM! TANTANTARA! (English)
after having reestablished herself as SWMBO to Julius Caesar.
Goscinny seems more musically gifted than his translators,
for his line has more rythm to it,
Jan
PS One wonders though whether or not
Goscinny had a particular musical phrase in mind.
J. J. Lodder
> In message <dc551a92-5e11-42b0...@a22g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
> Mitch <mah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 2, 4:52 am, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
> >> Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >> > J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>
> >> > > Let's say that Hergé was a lot cleverer than his translators.
> >>
> >> > Perhaps the translators of Goscinny and Uderzo did better: I've read
> >> > Asterix in French, English and German and am always amazed at how
> >> > cleverly the translators got the ideas across, even though they often
> >> > used a different play on words.
> >>
> >> I found the English translation often uninspired,
> >> with apparently and word ending in -ix serving as a name.
> >> OTOH they do have some very English finds,
> >> like the centurion Appianglorius.
> >>
> >> There is a list somewhere on the net of all Asterix names
> >> in all languages, but I haven't bookmarked it.
>
> > http://members.aol.com/OlivThill/asterix/asterix_names.htm
>
> Interesting, I guess I have never read a English (USA) Asterix book
>
> Magigimmix? Malacoustix? Epidemix? Never heard of them.
Easy to see which you have:
Panoramix becomes either Readymix or Magigimix, depending on version,
instead of Getafix,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
> In message <1if86ry.nb...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>
> J. <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
> > Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >> "Dogmatix" is a particularly good
> >> translation; some of the others are clever, but don't work quite so well.
>
> > Idefix isn't a joke, and it isn't a wordplay.
>
> Yes, it is.
>
> > It is just a word (two actually) that can be made to end in -ix, and
> > that's all there is to it.
>
> You are very very wrong.
>
> > It shouldn't be 'translated' by a translator who is trying to be
> > funnier than Goscinny.
>
> You do know that the translators (at least the English ones) work very
> closely with Goscinny and that he approves everything they do, right?
My, that is great news, to his fans.
Goscinny has been seen, just leaving the building?
Jan
Barbara Bailey
news:1if93dl.pd...@de-ster.xs4all.nl:
And Cacaphonix the bard becomes Malacoustix.
Robert Bannister
> Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>Wrong. A translator should attempt to convey the ideas and style of the
>>author in another language.
>
>
> That's your idea of what a translator should do.
> Can't you see that other ideas about that are possible?
Not any that are useful, particularly in a work of "literature".
>
>
>>You seem to be implying that word for word
>>translation is sufficient.
>
>
> Your straw man.
>
>
>>"Dogmatix" is a particularly good
>>translation; some of the others are clever, but don't work quite so well.
>
>
> Idefix isn't a joke, and it isn't a wordplay.
> It is just a word (two actually) that can be made to end in -ix,
> and that's all there is to it.
If you don't think that is a joke, you are definitely missing something.
>
> It shouldn't be 'translated' by a translator
> who is trying to be funnier than Goscinny.
Funnier only by happy chance. I doubt very much that the translator was
trying to outdo Goscinny. It's just that with word play, some things
work out better than others.
--
Rob Bannister
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
I'm speechless!
J. J. Lodder
No doubt there is a list somewhere on the internet.
More examples of mediocre translations.
Malacoustix seems preferable to me.
On language: can you produce a cacaphony all by yourself,
or does it require a group of people?
Jan
Isabelle Cecchini
[...]
>
> Possibly, this is not the place to discuss it but I wonder why official
> French added a pronounced "x" to the name of a place used to be called
> Chamouni: According to The Guardian:
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2007/nov/19/chamonix.skiing
> only Parisians pronounce the "x" and neither British nor locals do. I
> suppose the British might retain the local pronunciation since Chamonix
> was originally developed for British tourists.
"Official French", when it concerns the pronunciation of place-names, is
rather a slippery entity. It's not to be equated with the speech of The
Guardian's "Parisians", which I think had better be read as "some
Parisians, those who are a bit ignorant or uneducated, and who have
adopted a spelling pronunciation because they can't be bothered to check
in a dictionary".
The standard pronunciation, which can be found in the
/Larousse de la prononciation/, doesn't sound the final "x", which has
existed in spelling since the 14th century. "Chamonis" is attested in
the 13th century. Place-names ending in "s", "z" and "x" are very common
in the Savoie.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:23:41 +0200, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J.
>J. Lodder) wrote:
>
>>
>>Jokes do not have to convey meaning,
>>
>>Jan
>
>I'm speechless!
I've now recovered the power of speech.
The words, phrases, clauses and sentences in jokes have to
convey meaning or there is no joke. In some jokes there are
double meanings; if the hearer does not recognise and understand
both meanings there is no joke.
LFS
Is there a joke if no-one laughs?
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
Yes, but the joke's on the jokester.
Also there is the occasional joke that is so sick that no one
dares laugh however much they appreciate the wit.
James Silverton
IC> James Silverton a écrit :
IC> [...]
??>>
??>> Possibly, this is not the place to discuss it but I wonder
??>> why official French added a pronounced "x" to the name of
??>> a place used to be called Chamouni: According to The
??>> Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2007/nov/19/chamonix.sk
??>> iing only Parisians pronounce the "x" and neither British
??>> nor locals do. I suppose the British might retain the
??>> local pronunciation since Chamonix was originally
??>> developed for British tourists.
IC> "Official French", when it concerns the pronunciation of
IC> place-names, is rather a slippery entity. It's not to be
IC> equated with the speech of The Guardian's "Parisians",
IC> which I think had better be read as "some Parisians, those
IC> who are a bit ignorant or uneducated, and who have adopted
IC> a spelling pronunciation because they can't be bothered to
IC> check in a dictionary".
Sometimes, we used to rent apartments in Chamonix during the
summer and I certainly heard many French-speaking people
pronouncing the "x". Whether they were half educated Parisians
is something I can't answer but it is useful to know my
pronunciation was more official than I thought.
IC> The standard pronunciation, which can be found in the
IC> /Larousse de la prononciation/, doesn't sound the final
IC> "x", which has existed in spelling since the 14th century.
IC> "Chamonis" is attested in the 13th century. Place-names
IC> ending in "s", "z" and "x" are very common in the Savoie.
Leslie Danks
> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:52:35 +0100, LFS
> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
>>Is there a joke if no-one laughs?
>
> Yes, but the joke's on the jokester.
>
> Also there is the occasional joke that is so sick that no one
> dares laugh however much they appreciate the wit.
What if a cat laughs silently inside a box?
--
Les (BrE)
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
Erwin Schrodinger will not hear it.
Just to confuse things further Erwin Schrodinger has himself
been in a box since 1961.
LFS
> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:27:56 +0200, Leslie Danks
> <leslie...@aon.at> wrote:
>
>> Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:52:35 +0100, LFS
>>> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>>> Is there a joke if no-one laughs?
>>> Yes, but the joke's on the jokester.
>>>
>>> Also there is the occasional joke that is so sick that no one
>>> dares laugh however much they appreciate the wit.
>> What if a cat laughs silently inside a box?
>
> Erwin Schrodinger will not hear it.
>
> Just to confuse things further Erwin Schrodinger has himself
> been in a box since 1961.
>
I wonder if he's laughing.
R H Draney
>
>Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
>>
>> Just to confuse things further Erwin Schrodinger has himself
>> been in a box since 1961.
>
>I wonder if he's laughing.
Unless you open it, he's neither laughing nor not laughing....r
--
What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?
Skitt
> Asterix is perfectly worthy of being obsessed about.
Having idée fixe, even?
--
Skitt (AmE)
fixin' to get another cuppa
Sara Lorimer
> J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > It shouldn't be 'translated' by a translator
> > who is trying to be funnier than Goscinny.
>
> Funnier only by happy chance. I doubt very much that the translator was
> trying to outdo Goscinny. It's just that with word play, some things
> work out better than others.
Especially since these are kids' books.
I appreciate the puns when I read them to my kids, and I get jokes I
didn't get when I first read Asterix 30 years ago -- but still, in the
end, they're comic books for children... or at least they are in my
household now, and were when I was a kid. Maybe my parents raised me
wrong.
--
SML
Leslie Danks
Next, you'll be telling us the Harry Potter books are for kids.
--
Les (BrE)
J. J. Lodder
> In message <1ifa3ba.1ob...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>
> J. <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
> > On language: can you produce a cacaphony all by yourself,
> > or does it require a group of people?
>
> You can did it solo as long as you have multiple sound sources. Say
> your voice and a lire, for example.
I had always understood a cacaphony to imply >> 1
hence more than two,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
> On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:23:41 +0200, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J.
> J. Lodder) wrote:
>
> >
> >Jokes do not have to convey meaning,
> >
> >Jan
>
> I'm speechless!
Moi, je suis medusé, by Jericho.
But please enlighten me,
what meaning did Goscinny convey
by naming Idéfix Idéfix?
Jan
J. J. Lodder
Yes, yes, butbutbut...
Asterix was originally published
in a comics magazine for the French kiddies,
but when Asterix first appeared in it
the paid circulation jumped,
because all kinds of non-kiddies started buying it,
for the kiddies of course,
Jan
HVS
What happens post-publication isn't very relevant: the central
point is who the intended audience was when they were written.
The Harry Potter phenomenon is a good contemporary case.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Lanarcam
> On 12 Apr 2008, J. J. Lodder wrote
>
>> Asterix was originally published
>> in a comics magazine for the French kiddies,
>> but when Asterix first appeared in it
>> the paid circulation jumped,
>> because all kinds of non-kiddies started buying it,
>> for the kiddies of course,
>
> What happens post-publication isn't very relevant: the central
> point is who the intended audience was when they were written.
>
The intended audience was clearly children, but there
were more than twenty years beetween the first album
"Asterix le gaulois" and "Asterix chez les Belges"
and they had had more than enough time to realise
that Asterix was at least as popular among adults
as among younguns. In fact Asterix albums have
multiple audience, there are puns for every age.
> The Harry Potter phenomenon is a good contemporary case.
I know many adults who are fans, but they
admit that only in close circles.
J. J. Lodder
Robert Bannister
Only in the forest.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
I think there was a cultural difference back then in that, in French
speaking countries, what we might have dismissed as "comic books/strips"
were not all considered to be kids' stuff. Whether this was begun by
Hergé or Goscinny & Co. I don't know, although "we" did have those
comics that covered classical stories. I was almost adult anyway by the
time I first saw an Asterix book. Tintin I never liked.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> What happens post-publication isn't very relevant: the central
> point is who the intended audience was when they were written.
>
> The Harry Potter phenomenon is a good contemporary case.
>
We could be entering the esoteric world of literary analysis here. You
wouldn't want to tell any of *them* that the only relevance of a poem
was what the author intended or that it should only be read by those the
author wrote it for.
--
Rob Bannister
Mike Lyle
Mike Lyle
>> or does it require a group of people?
>
> your voice and a lire, for example.
There's no requirement for a cacophony to issue from more than a single
source, any more than for its more popular sister, euphony.
Mike Lyle
> Mike M <mikm...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 11 Apr, 12:43, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
[...]
>>> The English translation I have does not have your text.
>>> Instead the music is translated into:
>>> ZING! BOOM! TANTANTARA!!!
>>> It doesn't even scan into your song.
>>> Perhaps you have yet another (American?) translation?
>
> It makes me think of "Tan-tiv-ee," the traditional English rendering
> of the hunting horn.
You're thinking of "tarantara" and similar expressions, which go back
centuries. "Tantivvy" is galloping.
"For when threatened with emeutes,
And yer 'eart is in yer boots,
We find the wisest thing
Is to slap our chests and sing:
Tarantara!
For there's nothing brings it round
Like the trumpet's martial sound ..."
>
>> Ah. OK. I wonder if this is one of those "clever" translations that
>> we've been discussing, and that the translator *was* thinking of
>> "Roll Out The Barrel" but didn't get it quite right.
>
> See above. It's a "clever" translation in that these are all
> borrowings from a shared cultural heritage.
I imagine that's true. There can never have been much of a monopoly in
the words "tara!" and "boom!"
Nick
>
> I think it *is* coincidence, and not particularly helluvic.
>
> Google Books shows that "zing boom" and "boom zing" were used in various
> comic songs as a kind of sound effect going back to the 1880s
> (apparently, given the erratic nature of Google Books listings).
> Definitely the early 1900s at least.
Having sung in the male chorus of Iolanthe, I can never forget:
Loudly let the trumpet bray!
Tantantara!
Proudly bang the sounding brasses!
Tzing! Boom!
As upon its lordly way
This unique procession passes,
Tantantara! Tzing! Boom!
Bow, bow, ye lower middle classes!
Bow, bow, ye tradesmen, bow, ye masses!
Blow the trumpets, bang the brasses!
Tantantara! Tzing! Boom!
We are peers of highest station,
Paragons of legislation,
Pillars of the British nation!
Tantantara! Tzing! Boom!
Iolanthe was first performed in 1882
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Lewis wrote:
>> In message <1ifa3ba.1ob...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>
>> J. <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
>>> On language: can you produce a cacaphony all by yourself,
>>> or does it require a group of people?
>>
>> You can did it solo as long as you have multiple sound sources. Say
>> your voice and a lire, for example.
>
>There's no requirement for a cacophony to issue from more than a single
>source, any more than for its more popular sister, euphony.
Noting one spelling used --
cacaphony: a fake turd.