Thomas Jefferson's accent
Polar
Just saw a TV show in which the actor playing Jefferson
used a sort of hybrid "Southern" accent, with some weirdnesses, like
"hewse" for "house" (much discussion of Monticello) [1]
In Colonial times, *was* there a "Southern" accent as we
understand it today -- even granting that there are many different
Southern accents, ranging from deep-in-the-heart-of-Texas to
soft- barely- there- Virginian?
Wouldn't Jefferson have spoken more like the people in
the part of England where his father, Peter Jefferson, came from
(I think)?
[1] Monticello -- Jefferson's "seat", now a historic attraction.
--
Polar
C. Gwinn
Polar <sme...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3848e35c...@news.mindspring.com...
N.Mitchum
-----
> Just saw a TV show in which the actor playing Jefferson
> used a sort of hybrid "Southern" accent, with some weirdnesses, like
> "hewse" for "house"
>
>
> Wouldn't Jefferson have spoken more like the people in
> the part of England where his father, Peter Jefferson, came from
If he said "hewse" for "house," the accent may have been
researched. I recall that areas of the Smokey Mountains, New
England, and Canada (places with a common linguistic heritage, and
places rather insulated from the outside world) share this
pronunciation of the "ow" sound, a speech characteristic that
dates back to colonial times.
----NM
D. Ferrel
>-----
>> Just saw a TV show in which the actor playing Jefferson
>> used a sort of hybrid "Southern" accent, with some weirdnesses, like
>> "hewse" for "house"
>>
>> In Colonial times, *was* there a "Southern" accent as we
>> understand it today [...]
>>
I lived in Virginia for 6 years and my wife grew up in
Tidewater Virginia. Her favorite example: The Boy Scout who
chased a mouse about the house -- which in Tidewater sounds like
The Boy scoot who chased a moouse abooot the hoooos (at least
that's as close as I can come to a phonetic translation). People
in Maine and some parts of Canada have a similar accent.
Someone mentioned such accents in "isolated" locations.
There are supposedly places that are isolated in the Blue Ridge
mountains where people still speak Elizabethan English. However I'm
talking about heavily populated places: Norfolk, Newport News,
Hampton, even up to Richmond. //// F
David McMurray
> Polar wrote:
> -----
> > Just saw a TV show in which the actor playing Jefferson
> > used a sort of hybrid "Southern" accent, with some weirdnesses, like
> > "hewse" for "house"
[...]
> If he said "hewse" for "house," the accent may have been
> researched. I recall that areas of the Smokey Mountains, New
> England, and Canada (places with a common linguistic heritage, and
> places rather insulated from the outside world) share this
> pronunciation of the "ow" sound, a speech characteristic that
> dates back to colonial times.
Assuming that "hewse" is meant as an example of the phenomenon known as
Canadian raising, it is perhaps worth noting that it has been discussed
so often in a.u.e that it seems very unlikely that anything new and
useful on the subject will emerge from mere speculation or random
recollection.
--
David
Bob Cunningham
>N.Mitchum <aj...@lafn.org> wrote:
>[...]
John Lawler discusses it at
<http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/aue/truly.html>.
Among other things he says:
There's a Web page devoted to "Canadian Raising", as it's called
in the trade, which has sound clips you can download and play
while you practice. The URL is
http://web.mit.edu/troberts/www/raising.html.
But, like so many other things, the fact that Canadian raising has
been discussed in AUE shouldn't preclude introducing and discussing
new aspects of it. I find it interesting that Thomas Jefferson's
speech may have included Canadian raising. Rather than indulging in
mere speculation, N. Mitchum suggested that someone may have
researched the matter before putting that pronunciation in the mouth
of Thomas Jefferson.
John Lawler writes that Canadian raising is found among 'Canadian
English speakers (and a fair number of speakers in the upper tier of
US states, including lots of Michiganders)'. What evidence is there
that it once reached as far south as Thomas Jefferson's Virginia?
Richard Fontana
>But, like so many other things, the fact that Canadian raising has
>been discussed in AUE shouldn't preclude introducing and discussing
>new aspects of it. I find it interesting that Thomas Jefferson's
>speech may have included Canadian raising. Rather than indulging in
>mere speculation, N. Mitchum suggested that someone may have
>researched the matter before putting that pronunciation in the mouth
>of Thomas Jefferson.
>
>John Lawler writes that Canadian raising is found among 'Canadian
>English speakers (and a fair number of speakers in the upper tier of
>US states, including lots of Michiganders)'. What evidence is there
>that it once reached as far south as Thomas Jefferson's Virginia?
I remember reading somewhere recently that the sound heard in
Canadian "house" was once common in many English dialects and
represents an older pronunciation which was later lost in most dialects;
but it's possible I read that *here*.
Richard
Peter T. Daniels
> been discussed in AUE shouldn't preclude introducing and discussing
> new aspects of it. I find it interesting that Thomas Jefferson's
> speech may have included Canadian raising. Rather than indulging in
> mere speculation, N. Mitchum suggested that someone may have
> researched the matter before putting that pronunciation in the mouth
> of Thomas Jefferson.
>
> John Lawler writes that Canadian raising is found among 'Canadian
> English speakers (and a fair number of speakers in the upper tier of
> US states, including lots of Michiganders)'. What evidence is there
> that it once reached as far south as Thomas Jefferson's Virginia?
The Linguistic Atlas data were collected in the 1930s from nonagenarians
(wherever possible), i.e. people who started talking in the 1840s, less
than 20 years after Jefferson died. So all you need to do is consult the
published volumes of the relevant section of the Atlas -- though they
may be hard to track down, since only New England was published in
traditional linguistic atlas format.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
David McMurray
Bob Cunningham <malgran...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Nov 1999 06:02:53 -0500, ik0...@kingston.net (David
> McMurray) said:
>
> >N.Mitchum <aj...@lafn.org> wrote:
>
> >> Polar wrote:
> >> -----
> >> > Just saw a TV show in which the actor playing Jefferson
> >> > used a sort of hybrid "Southern" accent, with some weirdnesses, like
> >> > "hewse" for "house"
>
> >[...]
>
> >> If he said "hewse" for "house," the accent may have been
> >> researched. I recall that areas of the Smokey Mountains, New
> >> England, and Canada (places with a common linguistic heritage, and
> >> places rather insulated from the outside world) share this
> >> pronunciation of the "ow" sound, a speech characteristic that
> >> dates back to colonial times.
>
> >Assuming that "hewse" is meant as an example of the phenomenon known as
> >Canadian raising, it is perhaps worth noting that it has been discussed
> >so often in a.u.e that it seems very unlikely that anything new and
> >useful on the subject will emerge from mere speculation or random
> >recollection.
[...]
> But, like so many other things, the fact that Canadian raising has
> been discussed in AUE shouldn't preclude introducing and discussing
> new aspects of it.
But the fact that I never suggested that it should makes me wonder why
you bother to tell us that it shouldn't.
What we have here is a report that an actor (Canadian, perhaps?) playing
Jefferson said "hewse". We can only guess at what Polar means by "hewse"
(is it /hus/ or /hjus/ or something else?) and have no way of knowing
whether it was the actor's intention to represent Canadian raising. Even
if it was, the accuracy of NM's description of the nature and extent of
that phenomenon is questionable and its relevance to Jeffersonian speech
characteristics is unclear.
> [...] Rather than indulging in mere speculation, N. Mitchum suggested
> that someone may have researched the matter before putting that
> pronunciation in the mouth of Thomas Jefferson.
Or no one may have researched it -- in the absence of any stated factual
basis for the suggestion, it looks very much like speculation to me.
This thread establishes that Thomas Jefferson might or might not have
referred to his "hewse" at Monticello. You might consider that to be a
new and useful data point, but I don't.
--
David
Rich Wales
> John Lawler writes that Canadian raising is found among
> 'Canadian English speakers (and a fair number of speakers
> in the upper tier of US states, including lots of Michi-
> ganders)'. What evidence is there that it once reached
> as far south as Thomas Jefferson's Virginia?
I've been told that "Canadian raising" of /aU/ (the diphthong in "house"
and "about") before unvoiced consonants is a characteristic feature of
the speech of southeastern Virginia (the Tidewater region) and central
South Carolina (Columbia and environs).
I've heard this pronunciation, for example, used by South Carolina Sen-
ator Fritz Hollings.
FWIW, I've never heard this pronunciation in the speech of any native
of Michigan or New England. I =have= heard a pronunciation of /aU/
by some speakers from Massachusetts and Minnesota, in which the first
sound is somewhat moved back (i.e., closer to an "ah" sound, as opposed
to a "short A" as in "cat"). This, however, is definitely =not= the
Canadian "raised" pronunciation.
I grew up in California, but I lived for several years in southwestern
Ontario, Canada -- where "Canadian raising" is normal, and its absence
in most American dialects is a key feature of what is commonly nicknamed
a "Yankee drawl".
Rich Wales ri...@webcom.com http://www.webcom.com/richw/
Dave Timpe
news:1999112718...@wyattearp.stanford.edu...
| FWIW, I've never heard this pronunciation in the speech of any native
| of Michigan
Have you ever been to the U.P. (Upper Peninsula)? You'd hear it there (or
at least a version of it -- sometimes out 'n about sounds a bit more like
oat 'n aboat with some speakers, but there are oot 'n abooters, too,
especially around Sault Ste. Marie). Some parts of Wisconsin have it as
well.
I don't think the Tidewater variety is identical either (maybe shorter?),
but it's in the same ballpark.
--
Dave Timpe
davetimpe at cybrzn dot com
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Rich Wales <ri...@webcom.com> wrote in message
> news:1999112718...@wyattearp.stanford.edu...
>
> | FWIW, I've never heard this pronunciation in the speech of any native
> | of Michigan
>
> Have you ever been to the U.P. (Upper Peninsula)? You'd hear it there (or
> at least a version of it -- sometimes out 'n about sounds a bit more like
> oat 'n aboat with some speakers, but there are oot 'n abooters, too,
> especially around Sault Ste. Marie). Some parts of Wisconsin have it as
> well.
I knew they shouldn't have built that bridge ...
DQJuly
>Ontario, Canada -- where "Canadian raising" is normal, and its absence
>in most American dialects is a key feature of what is commonly nicknamed
>a "Yankee drawl".
FWIW, Canada is a very poor country, and so the absence of the "canadian drawl"
in the American dialect is not a big loss. Canadians are not unique as they
would want to be. They're just mirror reflections of Americans.
Polar
What the hell??!!
This is the biggest mass of b.s. I can remember reading on this NG,
and that's saying a lot.
--
Polar
Dave Timpe
Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3841B9...@worldnet.att.net...
The one in the Soo? It doesn't get too much traffic. The few times I've
crossed it I'd maybe meet one oncoming car on the whole bridge, which is
about a mile long. One factor in the Eastern U.P. might be that Soo,
Ontario is several times the size of Soo, Michigan, and thus has a greater
media footprint. Until the 70's or so, there was only one radio station and
no TV station on the Michigan side (although Cable TV got started in towns
like that back in the 50's).
Frances Kemmish
>
>
> The one in the Soo? It doesn't get too much traffic. The few times I've
> crossed it I'd maybe meet one oncoming car on the whole bridge, which is
> about a mile long. One factor in the Eastern U.P. might be that Soo,
> Ontario is several times the size of Soo, Michigan, and thus has a greater
> media footprint. Until the 70's or so, there was only one radio station and
> no TV station on the Michigan side (although Cable TV got started in towns
> like that back in the 50's).
>
There is, of course, so much more going on on the Ontario side of the
bridge. The only time I was there, I had just missed the armadillo
races.
Fran