Help with (fictional?) Scotsman Crossword
Isabelle Cecchini
Cryptic crosswords are like the SDC on AUE: they usually leave me
bemused and baffled, and I suspect they require the same type of culture
and lateral thinking that I probably lack. I've had a look at the
crossword newsgroup, and found that I can't understand what they're
talking about either. That's why I've decided to ask my questions here
instead of over there.
In Kate Atkinson's /One Good Turn/, the hero at one point takes up a
copy of the Scotsman and attempts to solve the Derek Allen crossword.
Throughout the rest of the chapter, the action is punctuated by the
crossword clues. Kate Atkinson is kind enough to give the solutions,
except for the last one.
I hate to admit it, but even with the solutions, I often don't quite get
what's going on.
1. First Scotsman on the road. Six letters.
"Tarmac".
It's the only one I can make sense of.
2. Grebe reared in Northern Scandinavian city. Six letters.
"Bergen". The author adds that the hero "liked anagrams best". Is that
supposed to mean that "Bergen" is an anagram of "Grebe"? Isn't there a
letter missing?
I don't get it.
3.Jack, say, and little Arthur going to a capital city. Seven letters.
"Jakarta".
I can spot "Jack", and maybe "Art" in Arthur, and I know that Jakarta is
a capital, but I am unable to put all that together coherently.
4. Met horrid accident with lobster dish. Nine letters.
"Thermidor". I can see the link between "Thermidor" and "lobster", but
why, oh why, the horrid accident?
5. Whinge may have upset novelist. Nine letters.
Hemingway.
I think I got that one. It's an anagram again.
6. Something used in carrying out suspended sentences. Five letters.
There's no solution for that one. It's the last clue, and it marks the
end of a chapter. I think that the answer is "Death", because of the
word "sentence" in the clue. That would be a nicely dramatic way to end
a chapter, but other than that, I can't see why it should be the answer.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Father Ignatius
geskryf:
> 6. Something used in carrying out suspended sentences.
> Five letters.
NOOSE
Father Ignatius
geskryf:
> 4. Met horrid accident with lobster dish. Nine letters.
> "Thermidor". I can see the link between "Thermidor" and
> "lobster", but why, oh why, the horrid accident?
"accident" is an anagram indicator: "thermidor" is an
anagram of "met horrid".
Isabelle Cecchini
That's so much better than my guess! Thank you!
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Isabelle Cecchini
Lovely! Thank you!
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Father Ignatius
geskryf:
> 3.Jack, say, and little Arthur going to a capital city.
> Seven letters. "Jakarta".
> I can spot "Jack", and maybe "Art" in Arthur, and I know
> that Jakarta is a capital, but I am unable to put all
> that together coherently.
"Jack, say" means "something that sounds like "Jack", giving
us JAK.
"Little Arthur" is indeed ART.
"going to a" means "append an A"
And "capital city" is what's called "the definition" (what
you put the rest together to get). In The Times crossword,
at least, there a convention (that you're just supposed to
know) that the definition comes either at the start pr the
end of the clue.
Ximenes, a god-figure in the crossword world, said that one
of the principles of setting crosswords is that, once the
solver had got the right answer (possibly by an intuitive
leap or sheer guesswork), they (as we now say) should be
able to look back at the clue and be reassured that they had
the right answer.
JAK + ART + A = JAKARTA provide this reassurance.
Isabelle Cecchini
[...]
> JAK + ART + A = JAKARTA provide this reassurance.
Than you, dear Father, you explained it very clearly.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Father Ignatius
geskryf:
> 2. Grebe reared in Northern Scandinavian city. Six
> letters. "Bergen". The author adds that the hero "liked
> anagrams best". Is that supposed to mean that "Bergen" is
> an anagram of "Grebe"?
Well, maybe. I took "reared" to be a reversal indicator:
GREBE reversed is the promising-looking EBERG. But I'm at a
loss as to how to shift that E to the end, so I'm forced
uncomfortably to consider that "reared" is an anagram
indicator.
> Isn't there a letter missing?
"Northern" gives "N". It is a convention that the letters
of the points of the compass can be clued to add the letters
N, E, W, S to the construction.
(that is, thde definition is "Scandinavian city" and not
"Northern Scandinavian city": these crossword setters are
devious bastards, I tell you.)
> I don't get it.
I'm not wild about my explanation. If I were doing the
puzzle by myself, I'd be confident of having got the correct
answer and pass on with a slight feeling of dissatisfaction.
If I were doing it with a colleague who is a stickler, we'd
not move on until we'd fully understood it.
Doubtless that nice Mr. Brader will be along shortly to
provide the ultimate enlightenment.
Isabelle Cecchini
[...]
>
>
> "Northern" gives "N". It is a convention that the letters
> of the points of the compass can be clued to add the letters
> N, E, W, S to the construction.
>
> (that is, thde definition is "Scandinavian city" and not
> "Northern Scandinavian city": these crossword setters are
> devious bastards, I tell you.)
Thank you. I'm beginning to understand how cryptic crosswords are
different from our French crosswords. When our crosswords are considered
difficult, they might rely on anagrams, reversals, and of course
dreadful puns, but nothing as elaborate as those conventions.
> Doubtless that nice Mr. Brader will be along shortly to
> provide the ultimate enlightenment.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Father Ignatius
geskryf:
> Thank you. I'm beginning to understand how cryptic
> crosswords are different from our French crosswords. When
> our crosswords are considered difficult, they might rely
> on anagrams, reversals, and of course dreadful puns, but
> nothing as elaborate as those conventions.
Crosswords in different languages are an interesting study,
and only partly because of the different ways in which
different languages lend themselves to crosswords[1]. I'm
no expert, but I darkly suspect that British cryptic
crosswords are the _ne plus ultra_ of elaboration. Since
the Americans, for this purpose, broadly share the same
language, yet are apparently far less inclined to cryptic
crosswords, I can only attribute this to the characteristic
national mental slant of Perfidious Albion.
[1] I read somewhere that Hebrew crosswords can have a
numeric dimension, playing on the textual/numerical
ambiguity of Hebrew characters.
Leslie Danks
> Isabelle Cecchini <isabelle...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> het
> geskryf:
>
>> 2. Grebe reared in Northern Scandinavian city. Six
>> letters. "Bergen". The author adds that the hero "liked
>> anagrams best". Is that supposed to mean that "Bergen" is
>> an anagram of "Grebe"?
>
> Well, maybe. I took "reared" to be a reversal indicator:
> GREBE reversed is the promising-looking EBERG. But I'm at a
> loss as to how to shift that E to the end, so I'm forced
> uncomfortably to consider that "reared" is an anagram
> indicator.
Could "reared" be an obscure abbreviation of "rearranged"?
[...]
--
Les
Don Phillipson
news:47243ded$0$47117$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
> Hello, dear crossword puzzle solvers . . .
> . . .
> 1. First Scotsman on the road. Six letters.
> "Tarmac".
> It's the only one I can make sense of.
Those that do not make sense of it may be unaware
(like every Scotsman alive) of J.L. McAdam (approx.
1760-1840) who invented the best method of building
long-lasting gravel roads (suitable for fast stage coaches
etc.) known as "macadam". Only a century later,
when rubber tires were introduced, was the method
improved by adding hot tar, viz. "tarmac."
> 2. Grebe reared in Northern Scandinavian city. Six letters.
> "Bergen". The author adds that the hero "liked anagrams best". Is that
> supposed to mean that "Bergen" is an anagram of "Grebe"? Isn't there a
> letter missing?
> I don't get it.
The N is supplied in N.Scandinavia. This is pushing the
envelope of acceptability in clues.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Peter Duncanson
The punctuation in cryptic clues can mislead. The definition
section of a clue and the "kit of parts" section are frequently
run together. One of the tricks of solving such a clue is to see
how else the words can be divided into phrases and sentences.
Grebe reared in Northern Scandinavian city. Six letters.
Insert a fullstop(period):
Grebe reared in Northern. Scandinavian city. Six letters.
The construction "<something1> in <something2>" can mean that
<something1> is to be inserted in <something2> or it can mean
that <something2> is to be inserted in <something1>. It is for
the solver to try both and discover which works.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Nick Spalding
<47243ded$0$47117$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>
on Sun, 28 Oct 2007 08:44:25 +0100:
> Hello, dear crossword puzzle solvers
>
> Cryptic crosswords are like the SDC on AUE: they usually leave me
> bemused and baffled, and I suspect they require the same type of culture
> and lateral thinking that I probably lack. I've had a look at the
> crossword newsgroup, and found that I can't understand what they're
> talking about either. That's why I've decided to ask my questions here
> instead of over there.
>
> In Kate Atkinson's /One Good Turn/, the hero at one point takes up a
> copy of the Scotsman and attempts to solve the Derek Allen crossword.
> Throughout the rest of the chapter, the action is punctuated by the
> crossword clues. Kate Atkinson is kind enough to give the solutions,
> except for the last one.
>
> I hate to admit it, but even with the solutions, I often don't quite get
> what's going on.
>
> 1. First Scotsman on the road. Six letters.
> "Tarmac".
> It's the only one I can make sense of.
>
> 2. Grebe reared in Northern Scandinavian city. Six letters.
> "Bergen". The author adds that the hero "liked anagrams best". Is that
> supposed to mean that "Bergen" is an anagram of "Grebe"? Isn't there a
> letter missing?
> I don't get it.
"Berge" anagram of "Grebe" + "n" from Northern
> 3.Jack, say, and little Arthur going to a capital city. Seven letters.
> "Jakarta".
> I can spot "Jack", and maybe "Art" in Arthur, and I know that Jakarta is
> a capital, but I am unable to put all that together coherently.
"Jak" ... "art" going to "a"
> 4. Met horrid accident with lobster dish. Nine letters.
> "Thermidor". I can see the link between "Thermidor" and "lobster", but
> why, oh why, the horrid accident?
Accident is a keyword indicating an anagram of "Met horrid"
> 5. Whinge may have upset novelist. Nine letters.
> Hemingway.
> I think I got that one. It's an anagram again.
>
> 6. Something used in carrying out suspended sentences. Five letters.
>
> There's no solution for that one. It's the last clue, and it marks the
> end of a chapter. I think that the answer is "Death", because of the
> word "sentence" in the clue. That would be a nicely dramatic way to end
> a chapter, but other than that, I can't see why it should be the answer.
I think it is "noose". A "suspended sentence" implies judicial hanging.
--
Nick Spalding
Paul Wolff
>"Isabelle Cecchini" <isabelle...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote in message
>news:47243ded$0$47117$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
>> Hello, dear crossword puzzle solvers . . .
>> . . .
>> 1. First Scotsman on the road. Six letters.
>> "Tarmac".
>> It's the only one I can make sense of.
And I'm certain it's incorrect.
>
>Those that do not make sense of it may be unaware
>(like every Scotsman alive) of J.L. McAdam (approx.
>1760-1840) who invented the best method of building
>long-lasting gravel roads (suitable for fast stage coaches
>etc.) known as "macadam".
The phrase "First Scotsman" at the start of the clue is a suggestion
that just as the first man was Adam, so the first Scotsman was "Mc" or
"Mac" Adam.
>Only a century later,
>when rubber tires were introduced, was the method
>improved by adding hot tar, viz. "tarmac."
The second part of the clue is the defining "on the road", meaning that
the solution is something that is in some sense on the road.
The clue is tight with no redundancy - excellent. The solution is
macadam.
If the setter wants the correct solution to be tarmac, their clue is
defective.
--
Paul
Father Ignatius
> Don Phillipson <d.phillips...@ncf.ca> wrote
>> "Isabelle Cecchini"
>> <isabelle...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:47243ded$0$47117$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
>>> Hello, dear crossword puzzle solvers . . .
>>> . . .
>>> 1. First Scotsman on the road. Six letters.
>>> "Tarmac".
>>> It's the only one I can make sense of.
>
> And I'm certain it's incorrect.
MCADAM?
Robert Lieblich
Brilliant analysis indeed. If only the clue hadn't asked for six
letters and the author hadn't given "tarmac" as the answer ...
<light bulb starts to glow>
Author's error, then. Right?
tinwhistler
<isabelle.cecch...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:
[snip]
> 1. First Scotsman on the road. Six letters.
> "Tarmac".
> It's the only one I can make sense of.
[snip]
McAdam; from Wiki: John Loudon McAdam, a Scottish engineer noted for
inventing the process of "macadamization" of roads. "First man"
obviously alludes to Adam. Scotticizing that yields "McAdam."
--
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
Paul Wolff
>On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 07:25:27 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
><d.phillips...@ncf.ca> wrote:
>
>>"Isabelle Cecchini" <isabelle...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:47243ded$0$47117$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
>>> Hello, dear crossword puzzle solvers . . .
>>
>>> "Bergen". The author adds that the hero "liked anagrams best". Is that
>>> supposed to mean that "Bergen" is an anagram of "Grebe"? Isn't there a
>>> letter missing?
>>> I don't get it.
>>
>>The N is supplied in N.Scandinavia. This is pushing the
>>envelope of acceptability in clues.
>
>The punctuation in cryptic clues can mislead. The definition
>section of a clue and the "kit of parts" section are frequently
>run together. One of the tricks of solving such a clue is to see
>how else the words can be divided into phrases and sentences.
>
> Grebe reared in Northern Scandinavian city. Six letters.
>
>Insert a fullstop(period):
>
> Grebe reared in Northern. Scandinavian city. Six letters.
>
>The construction "<something1> in <something2>" can mean that
><something1> is to be inserted in <something2> or it can mean
>that <something2> is to be inserted in <something1>. It is for
>the solver to try both and discover which works.
>
horribly strained to make the word "in" do the duty of the verb
"insert". But I dare say that battle is lost. Up, Guards, and at 'em,
and all that.
Whether or not it does, the N is not in, but on, or to.
Next, the word "reared". This can signal "reversed", but a purist like
me would say this is permissible only in "down" clues. The sense of
"rear" that is being used in such a case is "raise".
Here, I think we are being invited to read "reared" as "built up", which
it can mean when "up" means "upwards", and then to transform that
meaning into the other kind of "built up", which is "constructed", which
has no reference to direction (or rearing) but just implies putting
together from parts. Or there again, that's too strained. I think the
setter is just slapdash.
Do I need to say that if this is what the setter intends, I consider it
very poor clueing?
A variant such as "Grebe flies to Northern Scandinavian city", where
"flies" can signal the letters flying around into a different order, and
"to" properly signals that the result is added to the letter N for
Northern, is much to be preferred.
--
Paul
Father Ignatius
"Leslie Danks" <Leslie...@aon.at> wrote in message
news:47247672$0$8120$91ce...@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at...
Doubt it. Seems kind of a reach to me.
R H Draney
It was the first thing I thought of as well, but "comma" or "colon" might work
given that it signals the end of a chapter....r
--
"He come in the night when one sleep on a bed.
With a hand he have the basket and foods."
- David Sedaris explains the Easter rabbit
Barbara Bailey
> Hello, dear crossword puzzle solvers
> 1. First Scotsman on the road. Six letters.
> "Tarmac".
> It's the only one I can make sense of.
Umgluph. I got nothing. Sorry.
> 2. Grebe reared in Northern Scandinavian city. Six letters.
> "Bergen". The author adds that the hero "liked anagrams best". Is that
> supposed to mean that "Bergen" is an anagram of "Grebe"? Isn't there a
> letter missing?
> I don't get it.
Grebe + N(orthern) = Scandinavian city
> 3.Jack, say, and little Arthur going to a capital city. Seven letters.
> "Jakarta".
> I can spot "Jack", and maybe "Art" in Arthur, and I know that Jakarta
> is a capital, but I am unable to put all that together coherently.
"Say" is the clue here -- this one's phonetic rather than visual:
Jack=Jak; Slur "Arthur" the way a small child might and you can get
"Arta"
> 4. Met horrid accident with lobster dish. Nine letters.
> "Thermidor". I can see the link between "Thermidor" and "lobster", but
> why, oh why, the horrid accident?
Anagram "Met horrid".
> 6. Something used in carrying out suspended sentences. Five letters.
>
> There's no solution for that one. It's the last clue, and it marks the
> end of a chapter. I think that the answer is "Death", because of the
> word "sentence" in the clue. That would be a nicely dramatic way to
> end a chapter, but other than that, I can't see why it should be the
> answer.
My guess would be "noose" rather than "death". Suspended sentence =
death by hanging.
Jonathan Morton
news:fg201u$fle$1...@theodyn.ncf.ca...
> "Isabelle Cecchini" <isabelle...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote in
> message
> news:47243ded$0$47117$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
>> Hello, dear crossword puzzle solvers . . .
>> . . .
>> 1. First Scotsman on the road. Six letters.
>> "Tarmac".
>> It's the only one I can make sense of.
>
> Those that do not make sense of it may be unaware
> (like every Scotsman alive) of J.L. McAdam (approx.
> 1760-1840) who invented the best method of building
> long-lasting gravel roads (suitable for fast stage coaches
> etc.) known as "macadam". Only a century later,
> when rubber tires were introduced, was the method
> improved by adding hot tar, viz. "tarmac."
In addition there's a further play on words. If Adam were the first man
(which, per Genesis, he was) then McAdam could (in crossword-speak) be the
first Scotsman. Were it not for the fact that the OP has given us the
author's solution, I would suggest "McAdam" as the solution.
For a further look at the crossword in literature, see Dorothy L Sayers'
short story "The Fascinating Problem of Uncle Melager's Will".
Regards
Jonathan
Jeffrey Turner
Though you got all the (good) answers here, you might want to take such
questions to rec.puzzles.crosswords
--Jeff
--
"Power never concedes anything without a
demand. It never has and it never will."
--Frederick Douglass
Jonathan Morton
message news:vJmdnVwD7IO7Lrna...@bt.com...
>
> In addition there's a further play on words. If Adam were the first man
> (which, per Genesis, he was) then McAdam could (in crossword-speak) be the
> first Scotsman. Were it not for the fact that the OP has given us the
> author's solution, I would suggest "McAdam" as the solution.
Sorry, I posted this before reading the whole thread, others have explained
it better than I did.
Regards
Jonathan
Peter Duncanson
On second thoughts, "in" could mean that the letter or group of
letters is "in" the solution: the word being clued.
>Next, the word "reared". This can signal "reversed", but a purist like
>me would say this is permissible only in "down" clues. The sense of
>"rear" that is being used in such a case is "raise".
>
>Here, I think we are being invited to read "reared" as "built up", which
>it can mean when "up" means "upwards", and then to transform that
>meaning into the other kind of "built up", which is "constructed", which
>has no reference to direction (or rearing) but just implies putting
>together from parts. Or there again, that's too strained. I think the
>setter is just slapdash.
>
>Do I need to say that if this is what the setter intends, I consider it
>very poor clueing?
I too, dislike the use of "reared" as an anagram indicator.
>A variant such as "Grebe flies to Northern Scandinavian city", where
>"flies" can signal the letters flying around into a different order, and
>"to" properly signals that the result is added to the letter N for
>Northern, is much to be preferred.
"Scrambled Grebe with added Northern Scandinavian city."
Mike Lyle
[...]
> Brilliant analysis indeed. If only the clue hadn't asked for six
> letters and the author hadn't given "tarmac" as the answer ...
>
> <light bulb starts to glow>
>
> Author's error, then. Right?
Unless it's the /character's/ error. Which would be elegant, under such
circumstances.
--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
LaReina del Perros
<r_s_li...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Paul Wolff wrote:
>> The clue is tight with no redundancy - excellent. The solution is
>> macadam.
>>
>> If the setter wants the correct solution to be tarmac, their clue is
>> defective.
>
>Brilliant analysis indeed. If only the clue hadn't asked for six
>letters and the author hadn't given "tarmac" as the answer ...
>
><light bulb starts to glow>
>
>Author's error, then. Right?
Or editor's error, which the author failed to catch in galleys, and
which is now driving said auther to trichotillomania.
CDB
> "Leslie Danks" <Leslie...@aon.at> wrote in message
> news:47247672$0$8120$91ce...@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at...
>> Father Ignatius wrote:
>>> Isabelle Cecchini isabelle...@wanadoo.fr.invalid
>>>> 2. Grebe reared in Northern Scandinavian city. Six
>>>> letters. "Bergen". The author adds that the hero "liked
>>>> anagrams best". Is that supposed to mean that "Bergen" is an
>>>> anagram of "Grebe"?
>>> Well, maybe. I took "reared" to be a reversal indicator:
>>> GREBE reversed is the promising-looking EBERG. But I'm
>>> at a loss as to how to shift that E to the end, so I'm forced
>>> uncomfortably to consider that "reared" is an anagram
>>> indicator.
>> Could "reared" be an obscure abbreviation of "rearranged"?
> Doubt it. Seems kind of a reach to me.
Are we perhaps forgetting the etymology of an uncommon word frequently
discussed in this very lounge? Hwaet! we greba on geardagum/ hroron
mid hondum hrimcealde sae...
"undercooked," 1655, variant of M.E. rere, from O.E. hrer "lightly
cooked," *probably* *related to hreran "to stir, move."* (Online
Etymology Dictionary, pompons added)
Isabelle Cecchini
> Robert Lieblich wrote:
> [...]
>> Brilliant analysis indeed. If only the clue hadn't asked for six
>> letters and the author hadn't given "tarmac" as the answer ...
>>
>> <light bulb starts to glow>
>>
>> Author's error, then. Right?
>
> Unless it's the /character's/ error. Which would be elegant, under such
> circumstances.
That's it! The author does say that her character "wasn't very good at
crosswords", and I realise I may have been misleading the panel when I
said that she provided us with the answers. The only answers are
actually those found by the character. We don't know if they're the
right answers.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Jeffrey Turner
>
>
> "Scrambled Grebe with added Northern Scandinavian city."
Well, if that isn't a bad clue...
Peter Duncanson
<jtu...@localnet.com> wrote:
>Peter Duncanson wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Scrambled Grebe with added Northern Scandinavian city."
>
>Well, if that isn't a bad clue...
It's certainly not good for the Grebe.
Isabelle Cecchini
> Isabelle Cecchini wrote:
>
> Though you got all the (good) answers here, you might want to take such
> questions to rec.puzzles.crosswords
When I first browsed through rec.puzzles.crosswords, I had the greatest
difficulty understanding what it was all about. I really felt out of my
depth. The explanations kindly given by a.u.e.'s expert crossword
solvers have helped me get an inkling of the way cryptic crosswords are
built.
Maybe next time I have a crossword related question, I'll be able to
summon enough courage to ask it in rec.puzzles.crosswords!
--
Isabelle Cecchini
mUs1Ka
Please do, Isabelle. There are a few of us from here who frequent r.p.c.
We sometimes have another Frenchwoman, called Natalie, who asks questions.
--
Ray
UK
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
Paul Wolff
the Liverpool team bath!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/7054071.stm
--
Paul
Jeffrey Turner
> "Isabelle Cecchini" <isabelle...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote in message
> news:4724dcc9$0$47105$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
>
>>Jeffrey Turner a écrit :
>>
>>>Isabelle Cecchini wrote:
>>>
>>>Though you got all the (good) answers here, you might want to take such
>>>questions to rec.puzzles.crosswords
>>
>>When I first browsed through rec.puzzles.crosswords, I had the greatest
>>difficulty understanding what it was all about. I really felt out of my
>>depth. The explanations kindly given by a.u.e.'s expert crossword solvers
>>have helped me get an inkling of the way cryptic crosswords are built.
>>
>>Maybe next time I have a crossword related question, I'll be able to
>>summon enough courage to ask it in rec.puzzles.crosswords!
>
> Please do, Isabelle. There are a few of us from here who frequent r.p.c.
> We sometimes have another Frenchwoman, called Natalie, who asks questions.
Yes, if you make clear you're a beginner you'll get the necessary
assistance. Discussions amongst the regulars take appropriate
shortcuts.
J. J. Lodder
> Isabelle Cecchini <isabelle...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> het
> geskryf:
>
> > Thank you. I'm beginning to understand how cryptic
> > crosswords are different from our French crosswords. When
> > our crosswords are considered difficult, they might rely
> > on anagrams, reversals, and of course dreadful puns, but
> > nothing as elaborate as those conventions.
>
> Crosswords in different languages are an interesting study,
> and only partly because of the different ways in which
> different languages lend themselves to crosswords[1]. I'm
> no expert, but I darkly suspect that British cryptic
> crosswords are the _ne plus ultra_ of elaboration.
Perhaps, but in Dutch all this elaboration (like anagrams)
is considered to be a second rate kind of crypto,
because it is too easy.
The best authors don't use it.
BTW beware of the crossword -> kruiswoord false friend.
A 'kruiswoord' is the inferior kind of puzzle
where you just substitute words. (from a dictionary perhaps)
(like Spanish river -> Ebro)
The hard ones (cryptic crosswords) are called 'cryptograms'.
> Since
> the Americans, for this purpose, broadly share the same
> language, yet are apparently far less inclined to cryptic
> crosswords, I can only attribute this to the characteristic
> national mental slant of Perfidious Albion.
Indeed, I remember reading somewhere
(it may even have been our dear friend Mr Watson)
that he, as a visiting American, was excused from
playing the rainy afternoon word puzzle games,
since it was well known among Britons that Americans
are much to dumb to understand this kind of thing.
Which suited him fine of course,
Jan
Nick Spalding
<4724dcc9$0$47105$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>
on Sun, 28 Oct 2007 20:02:07 +0100:
Just start doing them.
--
Nick Spalding
John Dean
That's how he spelt it according to the DNB:
"McAdam, John Loudon (1756-1836), builder and administrator of roads,"
And OED says 'macadam' is "The name of John Loudon McAdam (1756-1836)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Loudon_McAdam
--
John Dean
Oxford
John Dean
Crosswords, that is.
--
John Dean
Oxford
John Dean
> "Isabelle Cecchini" <isabelle...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote in
> message
> news:4724dcc9$0$47105$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
>> Jeffrey Turner a écrit :
>>> Isabelle Cecchini wrote:
>>>
>>> Though you got all the (good) answers here, you might want to take
>>> such questions to rec.puzzles.crosswords
>>
>> When I first browsed through rec.puzzles.crosswords, I had the
>> greatest difficulty understanding what it was all about. I really
>> felt out of my depth. The explanations kindly given by a.u.e.'s
>> expert crossword solvers have helped me get an inkling of the way
>> cryptic crosswords are built. Maybe next time I have a crossword related
>> question, I'll be able to
>> summon enough courage to ask it in rec.puzzles.crosswords!
>>
>
> Please do, Isabelle. There are a few of us from here who frequent
> r.p.c. We sometimes have another Frenchwoman, called Natalie, who
> asks questions.
Yes indeedy. We'll watch out for you and steer the wilder spirits away from
you. There's a lot of literature on the subject of the cryptic and a lot of
on-line resources. The Wiki article is not perfect, but as a brief intro to
the types of clue you encounter it's a useful starting point. Beware! Many
an unwary dabbler has become an addict. [Which sounds just like a clue but
isn't]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptic_crossword#Types_of_clue
--
John Dean
Oxford
Robin Bignall
A non-cryptic clue I came across today is "What is the common
English name for ten to the power 24?" It starts with Q, ends
with N and is 11 letters. My dictionaries come up with
'quadrillion' and 'quintillion' which are 10^15 and 10^18, but no
other possibility.
--
Robin
Herts, England
Peter Duncanson
<docr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>A non-cryptic clue I came across today is "What is the common
>English name for ten to the power 24?" It starts with Q, ends
>with N and is 11 letters. My dictionaries come up with
>'quadrillion' and 'quintillion' which are 10^15 and 10^18, but no
>other possibility.
Those are the only two big numbers found by a search for
"qu????????n" at OneLook.com.
Jeffrey Turner
10 to the 15 is an American quadrillion, in Britain a quadrillion is
10 to the 24, and a quintillion is 10 to the 30. An American
quintillion is 10 to the 18.
John Dean
OED:
Quadrillion.
a. In Great Britain originally: The fourth power of a million, represented
by 1 followed by twenty-four ciphers.
So your crossword is a little out of date but not entirely wrong
--
John Dean
Oxford
Robert Bannister
> I'm not wild about my explanation. If I were doing the
> puzzle by myself, I'd be confident of having got the correct
> answer and pass on with a slight feeling of dissatisfaction.
> If I were doing it with a colleague who is a stickler, we'd
> not move on until we'd fully understood it.
Cryptic crosswords, or their compilers, seem to have changed over the
years. Time was, if I didn't finish a crossword, I'd look at the
solution the next day and exclaim either "I should have got that" or
"How clever". Nowadays, I look and mumble "Huh?".
--
Rob Bannister
R H Draney
>
>Robin Bignall wrote:
>>
>> A non-cryptic clue I came across today is "What is the common
>> English name for ten to the power 24?" It starts with Q, ends
>> with N and is 11 letters. My dictionaries come up with
>> 'quadrillion' and 'quintillion' which are 10^15 and 10^18, but no
>> other possibility.
>
>OED:
> Quadrillion.
>a. In Great Britain originally: The fourth power of a million, represented
>by 1 followed by twenty-four ciphers.
>
>So your crossword is a little out of date but not entirely wrong
People have such short memories around here!...
http://alt-usage-english.org/sdc2005/questions1_30.html#q15
....r
--
"He come in the night when one sleep on a bed.
With a hand he have the basket and foods."
- David Sedaris explains the Easter rabbit
Garrett Wollman
Isabelle Cecchini <isabelle...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:
>Cryptic crosswords are like the SDC on AUE: they usually leave me
>bemused and baffled, and I suspect they require the same type of culture
>and lateral thinking that I probably lack.
The first newspaper crosswords are thought to have been published in
the United States. Most of the crosswords published here today are
not that much different from those of several decades ago. The same
form became popular in Britain but developed significantly and in an
unusual direction. Does anyone know why this happened?
I suspect most Americans -- even the ones who religiously do the
syndicated puzzle in their local McPaper every morning -- would be
flummoxed by even an "easy" British cryptic. The puzzles in the
better U.S. papers do, on occasion, use clues that are within a step
or two of cryptics' (particularly Emily Cox and Henry Rathvon, who do
set "pure" cryptics in addition to their newspaper puzzles), but even
then the cryptic clues may be only six or eight out of a
hundred-odd-clue Sunday puzzle. We generally expect our clues to make
sense and lead directly to the solution with a minimum of diversion;
the only commonly-observed conventions are agreement in number, tense,
and abbreviation.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wol...@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Father Ignatius
> The first newspaper crosswords are thought to have been
> published in the United States. Most of the crosswords
> published here today are not that much different from
> those of several decades ago. The same form became
> popular in Britain but developed significantly and in an
> unusual direction. Does anyone know why this happened?
1. In response to the deviousness that is the hallmark of
the British mind?
2. The natural British love of being in an in-group?
> I suspect most Americans -- even the ones who religiously
> do the syndicated puzzle in their local McPaper every
> morning -- would be flummoxed by even an "easy" British
> cryptic. The puzzles in the better U.S. papers do, on
> occasion, use clues that are within a step or two of
> cryptics' (particularly Emily Cox and Henry Rathvon, who
> do set "pure" cryptics in addition to their newspaper
> puzzles), but even then the cryptic clues may be only six
> or eight out of a hundred-odd-clue Sunday puzzle. We
> generally expect our clues to make sense and lead
> directly to the solution with a minimum of diversion; the
In response to the straightforwardness that is the hallmark
of the American mind?
J. J. Lodder
Father Ignatius
> Cryptic crosswords, or their compilers, seem to have
> changed over the years. Time was, if I didn't finish a
> crossword, I'd look at the solution the next day and
> exclaim either "I should have got that" or "How clever".
> Nowadays, I look and mumble "Huh?".
Already tumulus incorporates inner chamber (6)
Wood Avens
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:
[of US crosswords]
>We generally expect our clues to make
>sense and lead directly to the solution with a minimum of diversion;
>the only commonly-observed conventions are agreement in number, tense,
>and abbreviation.
I tend to get annoyed with that type of crossword because, at least in
the early stages, it's frequently not possible to decide which of two
or three (or more, if they're short) words is the one required. With
any well-compiled cryptic crossword there's no room for doubt ; once
you've got it, you've got it.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Nick Spalding
on Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:49:45 +0200:
[spoiler]
The adyton (Greek ?d?t??) or adytum (Latin) was a restricted area within
the cella of a Greek or Roman temple. Its name meant "inaccessible" or "do
not enter".
--
Nick Spalding
K. Edgcombe
mUs1Ka <mUs...@NOSPAMexcite.com> wrote:
>"Isabelle Cecchini" <isabelle...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote in message
>>
>> difficulty understanding what it was all about. I really felt out of my
>> depth. The explanations kindly given by a.u.e.'s expert crossword solvers
>> have helped me get an inkling of the way cryptic crosswords are built.
>>
>> Maybe next time I have a crossword related question, I'll be able to
>> summon enough courage to ask it in rec.puzzles.crosswords!
Where's Bob Lieblich when we want him?
(who doesn't just do cryptic crosswords, but sets them, in case anyone didn't
know). Or have I missed a contribution from him?
Katy
Roland Hutchinson
> Ximenes, a god-figure in the crossword world, said that one
> of the principles of setting crosswords is that, once the
> solver had got the right answer (possibly by an intuitive
> leap or sheer guesswork), they (as we now say) should be
> able to look back at the clue and be reassured that they had
> the right answer.
That's precisely the reason why I like doing "cryptic" or "British-style"
crosswords from time to time. The ordinary "American-style" ones don't
interest me at all.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Roland Hutchinson
> In article <jr7bi3tn4tqjdfrdj...@4ax.com>,
> Wood Avens <wood...@askjennison.com> wrote:
>
>>I tend to get annoyed with that type of crossword because, at least in
>>the early stages, it's frequently not possible to decide which of two
>>or three (or more, if they're short) words is the one required.
>
> Of course, that's part of the challenge in the puzzle!
I think you mean, that is the _only_ challenge in the puzzle.
Prai Jei
<uaSdnTbUJ4q_37na...@saix.net>:
> "Jack, say" means "something that sounds like "Jack", giving
> us JAK.
One that I *set* in a crossword back in my student days (my landlord was an
avid crossword fan and classical music enthusiast):
"Appeal to the cat, we hear, for the composition's number" (4 letters)
<rot13>
BCHF
Fbhaqf yvxr "B Chff", naq pynffvpny cvrprf ner serdhragyl vqragvsvrq ol
"bchf ahzoref".
--
ξ:) Proud to be curly
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Barbara Bailey
news:fg5b4v$9io$1...@aioe.org:
> Father Ignatius (or somebody else of the same name) wrote in message
> <uaSdnTbUJ4q_37na...@saix.net>:
>
>> "Jack, say" means "something that sounds like "Jack", giving
>> us JAK.
>
> One that I *set* in a crossword back in my student days (my landlord
> was an avid crossword fan and classical music enthusiast):
>
> "Appeal to the cat, we hear, for the composition's number" (4 letters)
>
> <rot13>
>
> BCHF
> Fbhaqf yvxr "B Chff", naq pynffvpny cvrprf ner serdhragyl vqragvsvrq
> ol "bchf ahzoref".
That one's good. By which, of course, I mean "I could answer it."
Paul Wolff
>On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 05:37:50 +0000 (UTC), wol...@bimajority.org
>(Garrett Wollman) wrote:
>
>[of US crosswords]
>
>>We generally expect our clues to make
>>sense and lead directly to the solution with a minimum of diversion;
>>the only commonly-observed conventions are agreement in number, tense,
>>and abbreviation.
>
>I tend to get annoyed with that type of crossword because, at least in
>the early stages, it's frequently not possible to decide which of two
>or three (or more, if they're short) words is the one required. With
>any well-compiled cryptic crossword there's no room for doubt ; once
>you've got it, you've got it.
>
Wollman:
>>The first newspaper crosswords are thought to have been >>published in
the United States. Most of the crosswords published >>here today are
not that much different from those of several >>decades ago. The same
form became popular in Britain but >>developed significantly and in an
unusual direction. Does anyone >>know why this happened?
The basic crossword clue form simply gives what we can loosely call a
definition, and the solver has to choose the word that satisfies the
definition and also fits with all the intersecting words. The classical
cryptic clue takes that definition, and adds some kind of check phrase,
which has evolved to be as artificial as you like, to confirm the
correct choice of solution-word without reference to intersections. I
suggest that the cryptic clue developed to meet the objection that the
simple form suffered from ambiguity.
And it became established because the existence of two elements in the
clue -- the definition and the check phrase -- adds a further dimension,
in which part of the puzzle now becomes the identification and
differentiation of the two elements. Which words are the definitional
words, and which words are the check phrase words? This gives the
compiler scope for ingenious misdirection.
Take the "First Scotsman on the road" clue. I suggested that the words
"First Scotsman" are a check phrase for the definitional answer to "on
the road", macadam. But the same phrase could have been the
definitional part, if the clue had been "First Scotsman gives a penny to
fish" (in playful allusion to the traditional meanness of the Scots).
In this case, the first Scotsman is Alex Salmond (job title: First
Minister of Scotland) and he gives 'd' for penny, old style, to salmon,
a fish. Not much misdirection there, true, but nevertheless an
additional challenge to the solver to analyse the clue correctly.
Anyway, it's more fun that way, to lock mental horns with the compiler.
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo!
Robert Lieblich
Sadly, Katy, I construct (as we say in the US) mostly mainstream
American puzzles, and lately I've been pretty much out of the market.
I do have a couple of dozen in backlog, but I don't want to try
selling again until I'm sure I can devote adequate time to keeping up
a steady flow. I doubt that that will occur before I retire from my
Navy job, probably three or four years from now.
I do solve cryptics (I particularly enjoy the Toronto Globe & Mail,
which is a bit oddball -- anyone curious about it can email me for an
explanation of how to access it without paying the newspaper for the
privilege). I also have a few hundred Guardian puzzles printed out
and ready to feed into the solving stream as needed (for which I thank
one of our number, who I hope recalls why). I have tried constructing
cryptics, and in some ways I find them more congenial than the US
style. Cluing takes much longer, but you don't waste hours trying to
get all the words to fit. (A look at any American-style puzzle will
clarify that remark.) But I've never tried to sell a cryptic, and the
market for such things here in Leftpondia is quite small.
As a cryptic solver, I suspect I rate around the median in this
group. Given the nature of the group, I'm quite proud of that.
Robert Lieblich
>
> Garrett Wollman wrote:
>
> > In article <jr7bi3tn4tqjdfrdj...@4ax.com>,
> > Wood Avens <wood...@askjennison.com> wrote:
> >
> >>I tend to get annoyed with that type of crossword because, at least in
> >>the early stages, it's frequently not possible to decide which of two
> >>or three (or more, if they're short) words is the one required.
> >
> > Of course, that's part of the challenge in the puzzle!
>
> I think you mean, that is the _only_ challenge in the puzzle.
The toughest American-style puzzles are damned tough, though not in
the same way as cryptics. Anyone curious about this can check out the
Saturday Stumpers at the website of Newsday (a newspaper published on
Long Island). Here's a link:
<http://www.newsday.com/features/puzzles/ny-features-crossword-puzzle-stan-newman,0,6257505.htmlpage>
or
You'll get the puzzle for the current date, but you can retrieve at
least a couple of the Saturday ones. Note that these draw on American
popular culture, just as UK cryptics draw on UK culture.
Robin Bignall
<john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:
>Robin Bignall wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 21:22:03 +0000, Nick Spalding
>> <spal...@iol.ie> wrote:
>>
>>> Isabelle Cecchini wrote, in
>>> <4724dcc9$0$47105$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>
>>> on Sun, 28 Oct 2007 20:02:07 +0100:
>>>
>>>> Jeffrey Turner a ?it :
>>>>> Isabelle Cecchini wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Though you got all the (good) answers here, you might want to take
>>>>> such questions to rec.puzzles.crosswords
>>>>
>>>> When I first browsed through rec.puzzles.crosswords, I had the
>>>> greatest difficulty understanding what it was all about. I really
>>>> felt out of my depth. The explanations kindly given by a.u.e.'s
>>>> expert crossword solvers have helped me get an inkling of the way
>>>> cryptic crosswords are built.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe next time I have a crossword related question, I'll be able to
>>>> summon enough courage to ask it in rec.puzzles.crosswords!
>>>
>>> Just start doing them.
>>
>> A non-cryptic clue I came across today is "What is the common
>> English name for ten to the power 24?" It starts with Q, ends
>> with N and is 11 letters. My dictionaries come up with
>> 'quadrillion' and 'quintillion' which are 10^15 and 10^18, but no
>> other possibility.
>
>OED:
> Quadrillion.
>a. In Great Britain originally: The fourth power of a million, represented
>by 1 followed by twenty-four ciphers.
>
>So your crossword is a little out of date but not entirely wrong
John, Jeffrey, thanks for the answer. Both my (supposedly BrE)
electronic dictionaries, COD and ODE, give only the American
definitions.
Note to Peter D: I recently bought a Sharp PWE500A.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00015U88S/ref=pd_sl_aw_flat-hi_ukh06ce_200210550_1
In addition to the dictionary and thesaurus it also contains
quotations and an anagram solver that actually works. The
technology difference between that and the COD is obvious,
particularly in speed.
Unlike Mike Lyle I didn't lose my crossword ability after
hospital treatment: I didn't have any even before.
--
Robin
Herts, England
Peter Duncanson
<docr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>John, Jeffrey, thanks for the answer. Both my (supposedly BrE)
>electronic dictionaries, COD and ODE, give only the American
>definitions.
>Note to Peter D: I recently bought a Sharp PWE500A.
>http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00015U88S/ref=pd_sl_aw_flat-hi_ukh06ce_200210550_1
>In addition to the dictionary and thesaurus it also contains
>quotations and an anagram solver that actually works. The
>technology difference between that and the COD is obvious,
>particularly in speed.
Thanks. That looks interesting.
>Unlike Mike Lyle I didn't lose my crossword ability after
>hospital treatment: I didn't have any even before.
Confused simile where I yield to the first of you deprecated in
AUE. 6 letters.
Robert Bannister
That's not the kind of huh clue I meant. I rather enjoy unusual words or
words new to me. What I hate is when, even when I guess it myself from
the other letters, I can't see any proper relationship between the clue
and the answer.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> I tend to get annoyed with that type of crossword because, at least in
> the early stages, it's frequently not possible to decide which of two
> or three (or more, if they're short) words is the one required. With
> any well-compiled cryptic crossword there's no room for doubt ; once
> you've got it, you've got it.
>
I agree entirely. On the rare occasions I attempt a "straight"
crossword, I find I have solve an entire corner in my head before I dare
write anything down. With a properly set cryptic clue, you know, as you
say, when you've got it...
Perhaps I should say "in most cases": I often get clues where the answer
is a word in two directions (eg GOLF, FLOG), and it is not always clear
which word is required until you get more letters. My annoying, 90%
anagram compiler, sets clues of this type where the only letter you can
get from other clues does not reveal the "correct" answer. In addition,
he or she writes a number of clues that make little sense at all, even
though the only possible word that fits the other letters usually turns
out to be the answer required.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
>
> Anyway, it's more fun that way, to lock mental horns with the compiler.
Which is what it's all about. It can be very difficult to solve a
crossword from a new source because you don't know how the compiler's
twisted mind works. When I went back to England for a holiday, it took
me a week before I could do the Guardian crossword: not because it was
any more difficult, but because it was different.
--
Rob Bannister
Dick Chambers
> <4724dcc9$0$47105$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>
> on Sun, 28 Oct 2007 20:02:07 +0100:
>
>> difficulty understanding what it was all about. I really felt out of my
>> depth. The explanations kindly given by a.u.e.'s expert crossword
>> solvers have helped me get an inkling of the way cryptic crosswords are
>> built.
>>
>> Maybe next time I have a crossword related question, I'll be able to
>> summon enough courage to ask it in rec.puzzles.crosswords!
[My apologies to Nick Spalding. I am answering Isabelle's post via Nick's,
because my system has not downloaded her original posting.]
If you wish to learn the basic principles of how to solve British cryptic
crosswords, I recommend the book "Cryptic crosswords and how to solve them"
by Michael Kindred and Derrick Knight, published by Chambers (no relation to
myself). I myself learnt the basic techniques from this source. The book
describes the various strtegems a crossword compiler might use when setting
the clues. It starts off with a few very easy cryptic crosswords, and
gradually increases the difficulty as you progress through the book.
If you are a beginner, I do not recommend that you even attempt the Times or
Guardian crosswords. The Daily Express (terrible newspaper, nothing but
Diana and more Diana) does a very good cryptic crossword, at just the right
level for an intelligent beginner. This is published in book form as the
"All new Crusader crosswords", volume 1 and volume 2. When the Daily Express
cryptics become too easy for you, move on to the Daily Telegraph, which is
also published in book form. Only when the Daily Telegraph becomes too easy
for you should you move on to the Guardian. I have not yet reached the
Guardian stage myself.
I think you should be able to obtain the books I have mentioned above,
through Amazon.co.uk . But I have not checked up on this.
I do wonder how a French person, or even an American or Australian who has
not lived here, can possibly solve some of the British cryptic clues at all.
Many of the clues incorporate specifically British aspects of life, such as
cricketing terms, the names of small British towns sufficiently well known
here but virtually unknown to outsiders, etc. For example, a clue that I
solved a few weeks ago referred to "Kent" as part of the clue. Kent is a
county in the extreme south-east of England, and this part of the clue
therefore gave rise to the letters "SE" within the final answer. Would the
French or American solver normally have suffiicient specifically-British
knowledge to solve this type of clue?
Isabelle, if you can solve a British cryptic crossword such as the Crusader,
it is time for you to admit that you are more British than French, to settle
down in a cottage with rose-garden in Bishop's Stortford, and to become a
naturalised Englishwoman. Send me the official forms and I shall sign them
for you.
Richard Chambers Leeds UK.
Garrett Wollman
Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>I agree entirely. On the rare occasions I attempt a "straight"
>crossword, I find I have solve an entire corner in my head before I dare
>write anything down. With a properly set cryptic clue, you know, as you
>say, when you've got it...
Interesting; that's not my experience.
For the first three months of this year (to a first approximation), I
was laid up with a broken knee. I spent the time at my parents' home,
since I was not able to get around my own home at the time. They
took the /Boston Globe/ daily, and usually left the crossword for me
to do. I never got *really* good at it, but given an hour I could
usually do the weekday ones. (I don't think I ever completed one
of the Sunday Cox & Rathvon monsters[1] although I would usually get
most of the way through it after a couple hours.)
Perhaps it's just that there's a different puzzle-solving strategy.
With the /Globe/ puzzles, I would usually scan through all of the
clues in order, looking for ones I was certain about, and filling
those in first. In an American-style puzzle there are nearly always
several clues where the answer is obvious (e.g., "XCV - XXXIV" will
always be "XLI"). Then I begin to work the puzzle methodically,
writing down any solutions that I'm uncertain of next to the clues, so
that I remember what I was thinking when I come back on further
passes. (These invariably turn out to be wrong.) Usually the bottom
strip of the puzzle is the easiest section, with lots of short words,
so I'll often finish that before I get the middle complete.
The Sunday puzzles usually include three or more full-width (and/or
full-height) entries, usually with impossibly vague clues (like "Part
3 of quip", seen commonly in the /Globe/ puzzles); these are usually
related to the puzzle's title or theme, but I usually have to have
most of the crosses before I can figure out the reference.
-GAWollman
[1] See, for example, the excerpt at
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0812934865>.
Father Ignatius
> The basic crossword clue form simply gives what we can
> loosely call a definition, and the solver has to choose
> the word that satisfies the definition and also fits with
> all the intersecting words. The classical cryptic clue
> takes that definition, and adds some kind of check
> phrase, which has evolved to be as artificial as you
> like, to confirm the correct choice of solution-word
> without reference to intersections. I suggest that the
> cryptic clue developed to meet the objection that the
> simple form suffered from ambiguity.
And gave rise to focusing on the clue independently of the
grid: Evelyn Waugh used to visit Ronald Knox in Knox's
declining days, and they would solve The Times crossword
without reference to the grid: Waugh would simply read the
clues aloud to the bedridden and failing Knox.
"...if you meet a man who boasts that he does not think
[detective stories] interesting, you will nearly always find
that he indulges in some lower form of compensation --
probably he is a cross-word addict." --Ronald Knox
> And it became established because the existence of two
> elements in the clue -- the definition and the check
> phrase -- adds a further dimension, in which part of the
"Subsidiary information" (SI) seems to be a standard term:
definition + SI = surface
or
SI + definition = surface
where "surface" is jargon for "the clue as a whole".
> puzzle now becomes the identification and differentiation
> of the two elements. Which words are the definitional
> words, and which words are the check phrase words? This
> gives the compiler scope for ingenious misdirection.
"Having people for dinner?" (11)
"Decline to put small pig with old sow" (3, 2, 4)
ROT13:
PNAAVONYVFZ
EHA GB FRRQ
> Take the "First Scotsman on the road" clue. I suggested
> that the words "First Scotsman" are a check phrase for
> the definitional answer to "on the road", macadam. But
> the same phrase could have been the definitional part, if
> the clue had been "First Scotsman gives a penny to fish"
> (in playful allusion to the traditional meanness of the
> Scots). In this case, the first Scotsman is Alex Salmond
Noting in passing that Mr. Salmond might appear in, say, a
Guardian crossword, but he would not appear in a Times
crossword, where they have a tradition of excluding living
persons (with the exception of HM, whose presence might
signal "ER" in the answer)
Why? Because the clues go out-of-date, I imagine:
"Gordon Bennett! Rebels only want new leaders" (5)
ROT13: OEBJA
Exploring the <ObCrossThread>cusp</ObCrossThread>,
"Companion lost from group -- another ace gone, sadly" (9)
ROT13: OHAGUBEAR - Guvf jnf na bovghnel pyhr va Gur Thneqvna
bppnfvbarq ol gur qrngu bs gurve cbchyne pebffjbeq frggre
Obo Fzvguvrf, jub frg pebffjbeqf sbe ntrf va Gur Thneqvna
haqre gur cfrhqbalz "Ohagubear".
> (job title: First Minister of Scotland) and he gives 'd'
> for penny, old style, to salmon, a fish. Not much
> misdirection there, true, but nevertheless an additional
> challenge to the solver to analyse the clue correctly.
> Anyway, it's more fun that way, to lock mental horns with
> the compiler.
Yes, indeedy:
"We'll get excited with Ring seat" (10)
ROT 13 JNTAREVGRF
I allus thought that would go better as "We get excited with
Ring seat", but who am I to tinker with greatness?
Father Ignatius
> Confused simile where I yield to the first of you
> deprecated in AUE. 6 letters.
mutter mutter terminological inexactitude mutter
Father Ignatius
geskryf:
> I do wonder how a French person, or even an American or
> Australian who has not lived here, can possibly solve
> some of the British cryptic clues at all. Many of the
> clues incorporate specifically British aspects of life,
> such as cricketing terms, the names of small British
> towns sufficiently well known here but virtually unknown
> to outsiders, etc. For example, a clue that I solved a
> few weeks ago referred to "Kent" as part of the clue.
> Kent is a county in the extreme south-east of England,
> and this part of the clue therefore gave rise to the
> letters "SE" within the final answer. Would the French or
> American solver normally have suffiicient
> specifically-British knowledge to solve this type of
> clue?
This certainly is a prollim for me, here in SA (although
cricket we know from, if not stuff like English county
cricketers' names). I know that reference to the Home
Counties prolly implies "SE", but I can't remember how long
it is since I fluffed a [now-forgotten] clue to which the
answer was REDCAR. But, as you see, I was ruffled enough
that I still recall it.
But it's Brit popular culture references that wrong-foot me
most:
"Something very small? Vote for Mr Corbett" (8)
"Bar of soap" (6, 6)
ROT13:
RYRPGEBA (could and should have got that)
EBIREF ERGHEA (not in a million years)
Nick Spalding
on Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:31:57 +0900:
The Times has several different compilers.
--
Nick Spalding
Paul Wolff
But presumably still only one crossword editor to lay down the law. It
used to be Edmund Akenhead, who didn't claim personal skill but did have
firm standards (NTIKWTW).
Prai Jei
<Xns99D899230FAB2...@194.177.96.26>:
A few more of mine to try:
Mark it correct, say, to get in (6)
Locate the smell - it's the dummy medicine (7)
Rough behaviour in animal drama (9)
Robert Bannister
I vaguely remember, back in the days when I still lived there, that the
experts could tell one from the other.
--
Rob Bannister
Nick Spalding
on Wed, 31 Oct 2007 09:15:56 +0900:
> Nick Spalding wrote:
> >
> > The Times has several different compilers.
>
> I vaguely remember, back in the days when I still lived there, that the
> experts could tell one from the other.
I think that is still true but I am not one of those experts. There is
certainly one who is a lot keener on anagrams than the others.
--
Nick Spalding
Roland Hutchinson
Oh, yes -- they can be plenty tough. But the challenge is still usually not
to solve the clue, but to determing by interlocking words which of several
plausible solutions are correct.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Father Ignatius (or somebody else of the same name) wrote in message
> <uaSdnTbUJ4q_37na...@saix.net>:
>
>> "Jack, say" means "something that sounds like "Jack", giving us
>> JAK.
>
> One that I *set* in a crossword back in my student days (my landlord
> was an avid crossword fan and classical music enthusiast):
>
> "Appeal to the cat, we hear, for the composition's number" (4 letters)
>
> <rot13>
>
> BCHF
> Fbhaqf yvxr "B Chff", naq pynffvpny cvrprf ner serdhragyl vqragvsvrq ol
> "bchf ahzoref".
Doesn't really work for me, unless "sounds like" gets a pretty wide
latitude. The vowels are /@/ and /U/, as in "puck" and "put".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Just sit right back
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | and you'll hear a tale,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | a tale of the Stanford red
|That started when a little boy
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | named Leland did drop dead
(650)857-7572
Roland Hutchinson
> Prai Jei <pvsto...@zyx-abc.fsnet.co.uk> writes:
>
>> Father Ignatius (or somebody else of the same name) wrote in message
>> <uaSdnTbUJ4q_37na...@saix.net>:
>>
>>> "Jack, say" means "something that sounds like "Jack", giving us
>>> JAK.
>>
>> One that I *set* in a crossword back in my student days (my landlord
>> was an avid crossword fan and classical music enthusiast):
>>
>> "Appeal to the cat, we hear, for the composition's number" (4 letters)
>>
>> <rot13>
>>
>> BCHF
>> Fbhaqf yvxr "B Chff", naq pynffvpny cvrprf ner serdhragyl vqragvsvrq ol
>> "bchf ahzoref".
>
> Doesn't really work for me, unless "sounds like" gets a pretty wide
> latitude. The vowels are /@/ and /U/, as in "puck" and "put".
Interesting. Both /U/ for me, and I'm in the biz. The /U/ pronunciation
sounds like Latin to me (and I would so in Latin), but the English word has
a good honest English schwa as far as I'm concerned.
It's also the easiest cryptic clue I've come across in a while (though that
may just be me).
I think getting "composition" and/or "number" out of there would toughen it
up a bit.
"Classic sounds of a catcall. (4)" might toughen it up considerably.
I imaging that one of the hardest things about devising cryptic clues is
gauging how difficult they are after you've made them up.
John Holmes
> Nick Spalding wrote:
>> Isabelle Cecchini wrote, in
>> <4724dcc9$0$47105$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>
>>>
>>> summon enough courage to ask it in rec.puzzles.crosswords!
>>
>
> Crosswords, that is.
Here's a good place for a start:
http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/wordgames/cryptic_crossword/index.shtml
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
Isabelle Cecchini
> John Dean wrote:
>> Nick Spalding wrote:
>>> Isabelle Cecchini wrote, in
>>> <4724dcc9$0$47105$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe next time I have a crossword related question, I'll be able to
>>>> summon enough courage to ask it in rec.puzzles.crosswords!
>>>
>>> Just start doing them.
>>
>> Crosswords, that is.
>
> Here's a good place for a start:
> http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/wordgames/cryptic_crossword/index.shtml
A very good place indeed. Thank you. The 'Reveal the word' button is one
that I find myself pushing enthustiastically.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
I know when I'm beaten
Isabelle Cecchini
[...]
> enthustiastically.
Change that to 'enthusiticallity'.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Roland Hutchinson
> Isabelle Cecchini a écrit :
> [...]
>> enthustiastically.
>
> Change that to 'enthusiticallity'.
You _are_ a native speaker AICMFP.
Mike Lyle
> Isabelle Cecchini wrote:
>
>> Isabelle Cecchini a écrit :
>> [...]
>>> enthustiastically.
>>
>> Change that to 'enthusiticallity'.
>
> You _are_ a native speaker AICMFP.
And she's nearly invented a new mild rude word: "enthrusticality".
" D'ye reckon Penelope's enthrustical?" "Not 'alf!"
"Sad, really: he was rusticated for enthrusticating the swans." "You
mean he wasn't sent down for going down?"
--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Father Ignatius
> "Sad, really: he was rusticated for enthrusticating the
> swans." "You mean he wasn't sent down for going down?"
It was the swan that went down. They can only take so much,
you know, your Johnny swan.