Is there an art of rhetoric?
Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr
The Greek term for art, techne, means a method or skill for producing
something. Thus fly fishing produces fish, oil painting, paintings, and
bookbinding, books. What does rhetoric produce? Nothing. There is no
job description for rhetorician and there is no civil service test for it.
Therefore, there is no art of rhetoric. QED.
Michael G.
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Sean Holland
>The Greek term for art, techne, means a method or skill for producing
>something. Thus fly fishing produces fish, oil painting, paintings, and
>bookbinding, books. What does rhetoric produce? Nothing. There is no
>job description for rhetorician and there is no civil service test for it.
>Therefore, there is no art of rhetoric. QED.
>
That's really quite silly. But nicely typed.
--
Sean
Due to spam filtering, mail from hotmail or prodigy will not reach me.
Rhialto
Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr wrote in message <780n58$pok$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>The Greek term for art, techne, means a method or skill for producing
>something. Thus fly fishing produces fish, oil painting, paintings, and
>bookbinding, books. What does rhetoric produce? Nothing. There is no
>job description for rhetorician and there is no civil service test for it.
>Therefore, there is no art of rhetoric. QED.
I was going to suggest that politicians exercise this art on a daily basis,
but sadly, politicians today just aren't of the same calibre as yesteryear.
---
Rhialto
A country can be judged by the quality of its proverbs.
Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr
seho...@islandnet.com (Sean Holland) wrote:
<snip>
> That's really quite silly. But nicely typed.
Well thanks Sean. Typing IS one of my hobbies. I'll let you guess what
the others are.
Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr
"Rhialto" <rhi...@chikyuujin.earthling.net> wrote:
> I was going to suggest that politicians exercise this art on a daily basis,
> but sadly, politicians today just aren't of the same calibre as yesteryear.
That may be true but beware of nostalgia. Of course the case has been made
that at the time of Lincoln's *Gettysburg's Address* oratory had reached a
high point in the academic world. I must say that preachers are usually
gifted orators and most orators are rhetoricians. Furthermore, politicians
don't always need to speak in public, only on a limited basis. Salesmen are
the orators of our time. The proof is in David Mamet's play, *Glengarry Glen
Ross* A wonderful performance by Alec Baldwin.
Michael
________________
-There is Michael, then there is all the rest of us.
Magic Johnson
Thomas Bridge
>
> On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:29:23 GMT, Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >The Greek term for art, techne, means a method or skill for producing
> >something. Thus fly fishing produces fish, oil painting, paintings, and
> >bookbinding, books. What does rhetoric produce? Nothing. There is no
> >job description for rhetorician and there is no civil service test for it.
> >Therefore, there is no art of rhetoric. QED.
>
> lawyers. It makes their lies more stylish.
>
> Joanna
There is an art of rhetoric which was first articulated in Classical
Greece as the art of persuasive public speaking. The word I believe took
on its more superficial meaning of stylistics during Europe's rococo
daze, and has unfortunately not been taken seriously since. The art of
rhetoric is taught these days in most North American universities and in
the better school systems under the title "English Composition." Of
course, it is taught very badly, which is why the politicians of today
find it so easy to lie successfully.
Thomas
Sean Holland
On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:29:23 GMT, Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >The Greek term for art, techne, means a method or skill for producing
>> >something. Thus fly fishing produces fish, oil painting, paintings, and
>> >bookbinding, books. What does rhetoric produce? Nothing. There is no
>> >job description for rhetorician and there is no civil service test for it.
>> >Therefore, there is no art of rhetoric. QED.
>>
This is not a valid argument. For one thing, a Greek term meaning
something or other doesn't prove anything except a trivial point of
etymology. It does not lead to fly fishing producing fish, which itself is
a rather odd thing to claim.
You say that oil painting produces paintings, which is a mere
tautology. If it has any useful meaning, then it is equally useful to say
that rhetoric produces rhetoric.
Then the statement about "job description" and "civil service test" is
such plain nonsense, contributing nothing to the already bankrupt
argument, that one can only conclude that the argument, if made by a
person with a properly functioning intellect, is not a serious argument at
all. It seems to be a troll.
John O'Flaherty
find it easy to lie successfully, how can you conclude that they're taught it
badly?
john
Thomas Bridge wrote:
> Joanna Prescott wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:29:23 GMT, Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >The Greek term for art, techne, means a method or skill for producing
> > >something. Thus fly fishing produces fish, oil painting, paintings, and
> > >bookbinding, books. What does rhetoric produce? Nothing. There is no
> > >job description for rhetorician and there is no civil service test for it.
> > >Therefore, there is no art of rhetoric. QED.
> >
Thomas Bridge
>
> If rhetoric is the art of persuasive public speaking, and politicians of today
> find it easy to lie successfully, how can you conclude that they're taught it
> badly?
> john
Sorry for the ambiguity there, John. What I meant basically was that
politicians get away with a lot of their bafflespeak because the vast
majority of people are not properly trained to recognize it for what it
is--and I attribute that to our education system, which fails to provide
the citizens with an adequate grounding in the art of rhetoric by giving
too little time and attention to it, and by putting what little there is
of it into the hands of poorly trained teachers. Also, politicians lie
successfully not because they are sophisticated rhetoricians, but
because they are so incompetant in that area; they don't even know when
they are lying, so are able easily to sound sincere and give the
illusion of truth. Most elections are debated with various combinations
of "mom and apple pie", ad hominem attacks on the opponent, and flag
waving, none of which require rhetorical sophistication. But the voters
ask for no more, their education having failed to make them aware that
there could be more. Politicians lie, and get elected, so their lies are
successful; however, their speeches are not often, to my mind, very
persuasive.
Thomas
DK
>something. Thus fly fishing produces fish, oil painting, paintings, and
>bookbinding, books. What does rhetoric produce? Nothing. There is no
>job description for rhetorician and there is no civil service test for it.
>Therefore, there is no art of rhetoric. QED.
>
It produces states of mind. In one of the Shikasta books, Doris Lessing
provides a not-to-be missed rhetoric contest for aspiring manipulators. It's
hilarious; each contestant, spouting absolute rhetoric, becomes moved by his
or her own words and is therefor disqualified.
--Katrina
Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr
"DK" <cooper17...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> It produces states of mind. In one of the Shikasta books, Doris Lessing
> provides a not-to-be missed rhetoric contest for aspiring manipulators. It's
> hilarious; each contestant, spouting absolute rhetoric, becomes moved by his
> or her own words and is therefor disqualified.
> --Katrina
Thanks Katrina. That's what I am looking for at alt.usage.english. A good
ole Celtic Bards' combat. Read the _Four-Gated City_?
Michael
Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr
Thomas Bridge <tbr...@home.com> wrote:
> > > There is an art of rhetoric which was first articulated in Classical
> > > Greece as the art of persuasive public speaking.
Of course I have to agree with this. Rhetoric refers to the study of the
writer's and speaker's self-conscious manipulation of his medium with
a view of ensuring the favorable reception of his message. The audience
is the most important thing to the rhetorician since all rhetoric aims
to persuade a certain reader/listener.
> > > The art of
> > > rhetoric is taught these days in most North American universities and in
> > > the better school systems under the title "English Composition." Of
> > > course, it is taught very badly, which is why the politicians of today
> > > find it so easy to lie successfully.
Also have to agree with this, Thomas. English Composition is NOW the area
of what used to be called Rhetoric. People in the nineteenth century actually
took degrees in eloquence and rhetoric at university.
Michael G.
There is no finer moment than the enjoyment of a fine speech.
Michael G.
Philip Baker
Sean Holland <seho...@islandnet.com> writes
>>> >something. Thus fly fishing produces fish, oil painting, paintings, and
>>> >bookbinding, books. What does rhetoric produce? Nothing. There is no
>>> >job description for rhetorician and there is no civil service test for it.
>>> >Therefore, there is no art of rhetoric. QED.
>>>
>
>something or other doesn't prove anything except a trivial point of
>etymology. It does not lead to fly fishing producing fish, which itself is
>a rather odd thing to claim.
> You say that oil painting produces paintings, which is a mere
>tautology. If it has any useful meaning, then it is equally useful to say
>that rhetoric produces rhetoric.
> Then the statement about "job description" and "civil service test" is
>such plain nonsense, contributing nothing to the already bankrupt
>argument, that one can only conclude that the argument, if made by a
>person with a properly functioning intellect, is not a serious argument at
>all. It seems to be a troll.
>
And a rather artless exercise in rhetoric. I wonder what marks Van Gogh
got in his painting test. Was it conducted by civil servants or was
there a government Department of Painting?
--
Philip Baker
http://www.thalasson.com
Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr
Philip Baker <ph...@thalasson.com> wrote:
> > This is not a valid argument.
Does this mean you accept the four basic principles of a valid syllogism?
(three if you condense the middle term requirement)
> > It does not lead to fly-fishing producing fish, which itself is
> >a rather odd thing to claim.
Do you wish to deny that fly-fishing is an art with a result?
> > You say that oil painting produces paintings, which is a mere
> >tautology.
I was attempting to be brief. There is an art of oil painting, isn't there?
And that art has as its objective the manifestation of paints on canvasses?
> It seems to be a troll.
Quod erat demonstratum?
> And a rather artless exercise in rhetoric. I wonder what marks Van Gogh
> got in his painting test. Was it conducted by civil servants or was
> there a government Department of Painting?
With all due respect the Department of Arts at Arles has a copy of
a certificate that van Gogh earned at an ear chopping class.
Sean Holland
(snip)
>I was attempting to be brief.
(snip)
By leaving out meaning?
Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr
seho...@islandnet.com (Sean Holland) wrote:
> By leaving out meaning?
Sean, Sean. Sometime in the fourteenth-century Europeans started taking the
gifts of nature and transforming them into wonderful pictures on walls. About
that time people wore nice clothes and they knew how to enjoy themselves. Big
guys with fat bellies, like the Flemish painter Reubens, took many wives and
ate and had children and painted. What the hell are you doing with your life?
I mean, in comparison, it kinda looks pale and ghost like.
William Lieblich
>
> In article <sehollan-250...@199-175-106-129.islandnet.com>,
> seho...@islandnet.com (Sean Holland) wrote:
>
> > By leaving out meaning?
>
> Sean, Sean. Sometime in the fourteenth-century Europeans started taking the
> gifts of nature and transforming them into wonderful pictures on walls. About
> that time people wore nice clothes and they knew how to enjoy themselves. Big
> guys with fat bellies, like the Flemish painter Reubens, took many wives and
> ate and had children and painted. What the hell are you doing with your life?
> I mean, in comparison, it kinda looks pale and ghost like.
>
Reubens? You mean the guy they named those sandwiches after?
--
Bill Lieblich
Skitt
<Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr> wrote in message
news:78j533$l42$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
> What the hell are you doing with your life?
>I mean, in comparison, it kinda looks pale and ghost like.
Doe snot!
--
Skitt http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/5537/
Central Florida CAUTION: My opinion may vary.
Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr
w...@his.com wrote:
> Reubens? You mean the guy they named those sandwiches after?
How the hell do you think they got such big bellies?
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr wrote:
>>
>> In article <sehollan-250...@199-175-106-129.islandnet.com>,
>> seho...@islandnet.com (Sean Holland) wrote:
>>
>> > By leaving out meaning?
>>
>> Sean, Sean. Sometime in the fourteenth-century Europeans started taking the
>> gifts of nature and transforming them into wonderful pictures on walls. About
>> that time people wore nice clothes and they knew how to enjoy themselves. Big
>> guys with fat bellies, like the Flemish painter Reubens, took many wives and
>> ate and had children and painted. What the hell are you doing with your life?
>> I mean, in comparison, it kinda looks pale and ghost like.
>>
>
>Reubens? You mean the guy they named those sandwiches after?
It must have been a different Reubens. If named after the painter then
any sandwich with big buns would be a Reuben.
Charles