"Ketchup" vs. "tomato sauce" in UK staining incident
Areff
of the law firm of Baker & McKenzie (which is sort of the McDonald's of
international law firms) where a secretary got some ketchup stains on the
trousers of a lawyer or possibly a "legal executive". Here's a CNN
article on the incident.
My question is, why do the presumptively BrE
speakers involved (the stainer and the stainee) refer to ketchup as
"ketchup" rather than "tomato sauce"?
Larry G
::pulls up chair, grabs popcorn:: I'd like to follow this thread and see the
responses myself. I asked the distinction between "tomato sauce" and
"ketchup" once on a Spanish-language board and got nary a response. I also
remember asking a friend from Australia, where they call it "tomato sauce"
IIRC, but can't remember what she said about it other than the Aussie
"ketchup" was less sweet than the American variety. I'm thoroughly confused
about the whole issue myself.
Larry
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
My equally important question is whether "the details were forward
across the city" or across the City.
--
Jerry Friedman
Mike Lyle
US reverse-colonialism. Only the most refined -- viz., or at any rate
e.g., the ones you meet at AUE -- these days even know there are
other kinds of ketchup. And, in their defence (I've always supported
the underdog), the staineur and stainee in question almost certainly
reserve "tomato sauce" for something you cook in a saucepan but which
is not mushroom sauce, parsley sauce, bread sauce, raspberry sauce,
etc etc. (Have I missed a nuance, or are you having memory problems
again, Richard?)
--
Mike.
Mike Barnes
Why shouldn't they?
Also consider the person at the dry cleaner's, who might have asked for
clarification of what the substance was.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Areff
The nuance is that in BrE the condiment that Americans call "[tomato]
ketchup" seems to be called "tomato sauce". If these people are using the
term "ketchup", is that a conscious Americanism of the sort that the
Omrud (Final Arbiter of British English Usage), say, finds alarming?
Matti Lamprhey
>
> The nuance is that in BrE the condiment that Americans call "[tomato]
> ketchup" seems to be called "tomato sauce". If these people are using
> the term "ketchup", is that a conscious Americanism of the sort that
> the Omrud (Final Arbiter of British English Usage), say, finds
alarming?
You'll find just as many Brits who call it tomato ketchup as call it
tomato sauce. The most popular example is Heinz, which calls itself
Tomato Ketchup very prominently.
I have a feeling that fewer Brits are calling tomato ketchup "tomato
sauce" these days, because of the increasing awareness of what we might
refer to as "genuine tomato sauce" in foreign cuisine.
Matti
Peter Duncanson
Because in BrE "ketchup" means "tomato ketchup" by default.
In this incident it was very possibly from a bottle labelled "Heinz Tomato
Ketchup".
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.u.e)
Alan Jones
"Mike Barnes" <june...@mikebarnes.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:CwQws39z...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid...
"Ketchup" is what the British condiment's usually labelled, though other
ketchups (mushroom, walnut, anchovy) are used as ingredients rather than
condiments. The meaning of "sauce" and "ketchup" has to be understood
according to context: "oyster sauce" is an ingredient in Anglo-Chinese
cookery, "HP sauce" and many other more or less fruity "brown sauces" are
essentially condiments. So are homemade sauces such as mint or apple,
traditionally served with, respectively, lamb and pork as mustard or
horseradish is with beef. Worcester sauce (the proper name "Worcestershire"
is on the bottle but rarely spoken in full) is liquid like mushroom ketchup
(more liquid, in fact), but is regularly used as both condiment and
ingredient.
"Tomato sauce" commonly has the "ketchup" sense, as it's regarded as
something used in the same way as HP sauce etc. A sauce for pasta could be
called "tomato sauce", and in context that wouldn't be confused with
ketchup, but more often it's distinguished by an English or Italian name
depending on the other dominant ingredients: "tomato and garlic",
"Arrabbiata" and so on. In a supermarket, the pasta or "cook-in" sauces are
in a different department from the "condiment " sauces
So there is no consistent usage for either "sauce" or "ketchup" in BrE.
Alan Jones
Areff
> Also consider the person at the dry cleaner's, who might have asked for
> clarification of what the substance was.
Interestingly, I think we in AmE would say "dry cleaners" rather than "dry
cleaner's" -- we don't interpret it as a possessive. (We tend not to use
the possessive as much as the BrE do in other sorts of 'commercial
establishment' terms -- BrE seems to have thing like "the butcher's", "the
barber's" (= DocRobinE "the hairdresser's"/OmrudE "the coiffeuse"???),
etc., where AmE would have "the butcher", "the barber" (even as names for
the establishments as distinct from the professional who works at the
establishment). (Let's ignore the fact that there are no independent
butcher stores outside of New York and a few other East Coast cities, and
that the traditional barbershop [associated with Italian-Americans in
some Eastern cities but with Norwegian-Americans in Seattle] is all but
dead in most places.)
So the fact that AmE uses the expression "the cleaners" indicates that we
think of the cleaners as a plural, for some reason. So why don't we say
"the cleaner"?
mUs1Ka
>
> The nuance is that in BrE the condiment that Americans call "[tomato]
> ketchup" seems to be called "tomato sauce". If these people are
> using the term "ketchup", is that a conscious Americanism of the sort
> that the Omrud (Final Arbiter of British English Usage), say, finds
> alarming?
http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=MK2114289E&news_headline=ketchup_e-mail_scandal_lawyer_quits_his_job
Richard Phillips, 36, was publicly humiliated after demanding £4 from his
secretary to cover a cleaning bill after she accidentally spilt **tomato
sauce** on his trousers.
Mr Phillips was at the centre of an embarrassing e-mail exchange after the
secretary, Jenny Amner, accidentally squirted *tomato ketchup* on his
trousers.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?art_id=qw1119009962544B231&set_id=1&click_id=29
London - An email between a highly paid lawyer and a secretary over a
**tomato sauce** stain has become the talk of legal circles in London,
leaving the sender distinctly red-faced.
British media reported with glee the tale of Richard Phillips, who emailed
the secretary to ask her to pay a £4 (about R48) dry-cleaning bill after she
accidentally spilt **tomato sauce** on his trousers.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200506/s1395046.htm
Sauce splash spat stains lawyer's reputation
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/story.jsp?story=648744
The most famous *ketchup* stain in London has claimed its first victim.
Richard Phillips, the City lawyer whose suit was soiled by the misdirected
**tomato sauce**, has resigned from his position, it was announced
yesterday.
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/opinion/viewarticle.aspx?id=255954
RICHARD Phillips is the boss from hell who sent an e-mail to his secretary,
demanding that she paid him £4 in order to have his trousers dry-cleaned
after she had accidentally splashed a dash of **tomato sauce** on them.
--
Ray
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>The nuance is that in BrE the condiment that Americans call "[tomato]
>ketchup" seems to be called "tomato sauce". If these people are using the
>term "ketchup", is that a conscious Americanism of the sort that the
>Omrud (Final Arbiter of British English Usage), say, finds alarming?
>
I am willing to concede that British people may not be able to enter
the US as easily and hassle-free as they should, but language should
cross the water as freely as the wind. Language should be as
flavorful - spicy, even - as we wish it to be. When we utter an idea
or thought, the words used should be chosen to be as expressive as
possible.
This idea of yours that there should be the same sort of embargo on
words that there is on fruits and meats is both limiting and
regressive. You've set yourself up as some sort of language beagle
that sniffs out prohibited items and yaps at the finding.
We assumed the English language when this country was colonized, and
there's no reason to stay with the English that was in common use in
1600s. We should be able to add to that language as it develops
anywhere. In turn, the British should be able take up the words and
terms that have developed here. Language cooks should be able to add
spice to the stew on both sides of the water.
Any word that I have is free for the borrowing by any Brit, and I will
continue to borrow from them. Your taste buds may be stultified, but
mine are not.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando FL
Mike Lyle
> Mike Lyle wrote:
>> Areff wrote:
Others have answered, but, no, "ketchup" for "tomato ketchup" isn't
generally perceived as an Americanism in present-day BrE (though it
is one); I'm no longer sure about AusE, where "tomato sauce" had a
longer undisputed reign.
--
Mike.
Murray Arnow
>(Let's ignore the fact that there are no independent
>butcher stores outside of New York and a few other East Coast cities, and
>that the traditional barbershop [associated with Italian-Americans in
>some Eastern cities but with Norwegian-Americans in Seattle] is all but
>dead in most places.)
>
Balderdash!
Harvey Van Sickle
-snip-
> So the fact that AmE uses the expression "the cleaners" indicates
> that we think of the cleaners as a plural, for some reason. So why
> don't we say "the cleaner"?
Because that's reserved for the person who comes in to dust and vacuum
your house?
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canada for 30 years; S England since 1982.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van)
Areff
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:47:15 +0000 (UTC), Areff <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>There's a scandal currently rocking the globe involving the London office
>>of the law firm of Baker & McKenzie (which is sort of the McDonald's of
>>international law firms) where a secretary got some ketchup stains on the
>>trousers of a lawyer or possibly a "legal executive". Here's a CNN
>>article on the incident.
>>
>>http://tinyurl.com/8hae3
>>
>>My question is, why do the presumptively BrE
>>speakers involved (the stainer and the stainee) refer to ketchup as
>>"ketchup" rather than "tomato sauce"?
>>
> Because in BrE "ketchup" means "tomato ketchup" by default.
That doesn't explain why "tomato sauce" wasn't used. We've been led to
believe that "tomato sauce" is the *usual* BrE term for what Americans
call "ketchup".
Areff
> I have a feeling that fewer Brits are calling tomato ketchup "tomato
> sauce" these days, because of the increasing awareness of what we might
> refer to as "genuine tomato sauce" in foreign cuisine.
Gotcha. That makes me wonder whether, 25 or 50 years ago (cf. Kojak
Conjecture), something similar occurred in the US. We know that until the
1960s (at the earliest) it was standard practice for *most* Americans to
serve spaghetti with either Heinz tomato ketchup (then called 'catsup' I
believe) or Campbell's tomato soup. This was before the era of pre-made
jarred pasta sauces (the ordinary name for which in AmE is "tomato
sauce"). So was ketchup ever called "tomato sauce" in AmE, particularly
when it was served in nominally Italian-inspired dishes? EMWTK. Coop,
provide us with your recollections
please.
Areff
Wow! But in the actual emails the two people used the term "ketchup",
unless CNN misreported this. Maybe CNN did a Peter H.M.S. Brooks?
Aaron Davies
Ditto--there's at least one of each within five minutes of my apartment
here in Louisville.
--
Aaron Davies
Opinions expressed are solely those of a random number generator.
Magnae clunes mihi placent, nec possum de hac re mentiri.
Ho! Ha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Thrust!
ray o'hara
> Matti Lamprhey wrote:
> > I have a feeling that fewer Brits are calling tomato ketchup "tomato
> > sauce" these days, because of the increasing awareness of what we might
> > refer to as "genuine tomato sauce" in foreign cuisine.
>
> Gotcha. That makes me wonder whether, 25 or 50 years ago (cf. Kojak
> Conjecture), something similar occurred in the US. We know that until the
> 1960s (at the earliest) it was standard practice for *most* Americans to
> serve spaghetti with either Heinz tomato ketchup (then called 'catsup' I
> believe) or Campbell's tomato soup.
Maybe that's true where you come from,are you from Kansas or someplace
similar in Middle-America. Even my mother a good Irish-American made real
tomato sauce.
It just goes to prove that you never order Italian south of Philly or West
of Chicago.
Ketchup on pasta, ewwww yecch disgusting.
mUs1Ka
>
> Wow! But in the actual emails the two people used the term "ketchup",
> unless CNN misreported this. Maybe CNN did a Peter H.M.S. Brooks?
You are correct. The subject line of the email was "Ketchup Trousers" but
you must remember that these are "City" types.
--
Ray
Robin Bignall
wrote:
>Mike Barnes wrote:
>> Also consider the person at the dry cleaner's, who might have asked for
>> clarification of what the substance was.
>
>Interestingly, I think we in AmE would say "dry cleaners" rather than "dry
>cleaner's" -- we don't interpret it as a possessive. (We tend not to use
>the possessive as much as the BrE do in other sorts of 'commercial
>establishment' terms -- BrE seems to have thing like "the butcher's", "the
>barber's" (= DocRobinE "the hairdresser's"/OmrudE "the coiffeuse"???),
>etc., where AmE would have "the butcher", "the barber" (even as names for
>the establishments as distinct from the professional who works at the
>establishment).
It's because in such expressions as "the butcher's" there is, in BrE,
a tacit understanding that an unspoken word such as "shop" or
"premises" follows. I thought we had done this one to death many
times before.
>
>So the fact that AmE uses the expression "the cleaners" indicates that we
>think of the cleaners as a plural, for some reason. So why don't we say
>"the cleaner"?
>
Because somebody aboard the Mayflower forgot to pack the bloody
apostrophes.
--
Robin
ray o'hara
One reason may be that more than one person works there or maybe it's the
cleaner's.
Matthew Huntbach
Most likely to be unconscious. In an international law firm, you'd
expect a certain amount of internationalisation of language, and thus
the dropping of BrE idiosyncracies in favour of the AmE norm. While
"tomato sauce" is still used for it, "ketchup" is not so uncommon as to
be obviously an Americanism. From my recollection "tomato sauce" was
more widely used in the past and "ketchup" has moved from a word used
on the labels but pronounced "sauce" to one that no longer seems out of
place in spoken usage. As suggested, possibly because fresh sauces made
of tomatoes now feature more prominently in the British diet than they
used to. Possibly, like "fries" for "chips" it's a usage taken from
American fast-food chains which have only been here since the 1970s.
Matthew Huntbach
R H Draney
Ditto...there are plenty of independent butcher stores here in sunny
Arizona...it's just that the sign on the window is more likely to say
"carniceria"....r
Ross Howard
wrought:
Led by whom? "Ketchup" has been at least as common as "tomato sauce"
for decades. In the '70s the rightly notorious Wimpy bars certainly
served "ketchup" (served in a handy tomato-shaped salmonella
dispenser). And the two flagship Heinz products in the UK -- Beans and
Ketchup -- are so well-known and assimilated into British popular
culture that I was an adolescent before I discovered they were
actually American.
Did the same source tell you we have Maize Flakes for breakfast too?
--
Ross Howard
Areff
> Murray Arnow <ar...@iname.com> wrote:
>
>> Areff wrote:
>>
>> > (Let's ignore the fact that there are no independent butcher stores
>> > outside of New York and a few other East Coast cities, and that the
>> > traditional barbershop [associated with Italian-Americans in some
>> > Eastern cities but with Norwegian-Americans in Seattle] is all but dead
>> > in most places.)
>>
>> Balderdash!
>
> Ditto--there's at least one of each within five minutes of my apartment
> here in Louisville.
Okay, all I know is that Coop goes to "Supercuts". As Orlando goes, so
goes America, or so I thought.
Areff
> On 24 Jun 2005, Areff wrote
>
> -snip-
>
>> So the fact that AmE uses the expression "the cleaners" indicates
>> that we think of the cleaners as a plural, for some reason. So why
>> don't we say "the cleaner"?
>
> Because that's reserved for the person who comes in to dust and vacuum
> your house?
No, that's "the cleaning lady" if it's one woman. I'm not sure what one
says when it's a team of more than one cleaning lady, or if there's a man
involved.
Areff
>
> "Areff" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:d9hpuo$f96$1...@news.wss.yale.edu...
>> Matti Lamprhey wrote:
>> > I have a feeling that fewer Brits are calling tomato ketchup "tomato
>> > sauce" these days, because of the increasing awareness of what we might
>> > refer to as "genuine tomato sauce" in foreign cuisine.
>>
>> Gotcha. That makes me wonder whether, 25 or 50 years ago (cf. Kojak
>> Conjecture), something similar occurred in the US. We know that until the
>> 1960s (at the earliest) it was standard practice for *most* Americans to
>> serve spaghetti with either Heinz tomato ketchup (then called 'catsup' I
>> believe) or Campbell's tomato soup.
>
>
>
> Maybe that's true where you come from,are you from Kansas or someplace
> similar in Middle-America. Even my mother a good Irish-American made real
> tomato sauce.
Har! I've had Irish-American Italian food (is there any other kind?) in
the Boston region. Ketchup!
Peter Duncanson
Some people may refer to it generically as "tomato sauce" but those who read
labels would call ketchup "ketchup".
The report in "Times Online" refers to Ketchup:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1663196,00.html
'Ketchupgate' e-mail lawyer resigns
By Philippe Naughton, Times Online
The London lawyer who insisted that a secretary who spilt
ketchup on his trousers should pay his £4 cleaning bill has
resigned from his job.
...
But a spokeswoman denied that his resignation was precipitated
by the "ketchupgate" row.
She said: "Richard resigned in early June. He will leave us in
September. He is working out his notice.
...
Mr Phillips, 36, is a senior associate with the company, the world’s
fifth-biggest law firm, and is thought to be on a six-figure package.
He sent the e-mail the day after Ms Anmer spilt some ketchup on his
suit, unaware that Ms Anmer was attending her mother's funeral.
With the subject line "ketchup trousers", his e-mail read: "Hi Jenny,
I went to a dry cleaners and they said it would cost £4 to remove ketchup
stains. If you cd let me have the cash today, that wd be much
appreciated."
Ms Amner replied: ...
She went on: "I apologise for accidentally getting a few splashes of
ketchup on your trousers. Obviously your financial need as a senior
associate is greater than mine as a mere secretary."
...
Adrian Bailey
> There's a scandal currently rocking the globe involving the London office
> of the law firm of Baker & McKenzie (which is sort of the McDonald's of
> international law firms) where a secretary got some ketchup stains on the
> trousers of a lawyer or possibly a "legal executive". Here's a CNN
> article on the incident.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/8hae3
>
> My question is, why do the presumptively BrE
> speakers involved (the stainer and the stainee) refer to ketchup as
> "ketchup" rather than "tomato sauce"?
Because that's what we call it.
Adrian
the Omrud
> Mike Lyle wrote:
> > Areff wrote:
> >> There's a scandal currently rocking the globe involving the London
> >> office of the law firm of Baker & McKenzie (which is sort of the
> >> McDonald's of international law firms) where a secretary got some
> >> ketchup stains on the trousers of a lawyer or possibly a "legal
> >> executive". Here's a CNN article on the incident.
> >>
> >> http://tinyurl.com/8hae3
> >>
> >> My question is, why do the presumptively BrE
> >> speakers involved (the stainer and the stainee) refer to ketchup as
> >> "ketchup" rather than "tomato sauce"?
> >
> > US reverse-colonialism. Only the most refined -- viz., or at any rate
> > e.g., the ones you meet at AUE -- these days even know there are
> > other kinds of ketchup. And, in their defence (I've always supported
> > the underdog), the staineur and stainee in question almost certainly
> > reserve "tomato sauce" for something you cook in a saucepan but which
> > is not mushroom sauce, parsley sauce, bread sauce, raspberry sauce,
> > etc etc. (Have I missed a nuance, or are you having memory problems
> > again, Richard?)
>
> The nuance is that in BrE the condiment that Americans call "[tomato]
> ketchup" seems to be called "tomato sauce". If these people are using the
> term "ketchup", is that a conscious Americanism of the sort that the
> Omrud (Final Arbiter of British English Usage), say, finds alarming?
OK, I will pronounce. It is not and Americanism, conscious or
otherwise. "ketchup" carries no overtone of US English. It's a
perfectly normal UK term exciting no interest in the origin of the
speaker. Some people call the stuff "tomato sauce", but I can't
discern any inference one can draw from which of these two options is
chosen, in relation to origin or indeed class (which is likely a more
common differentiator).
OTOH, the stuff which comes in jars and which one might use on pasta,
or which one makes in a saucepan from tomatoes, onions, garlic and
herbs is never ketchup but always sauce.
Since you were kind enough to express interest in Daughter's trip to
the land of the free, I can announce that she has now landed safely
at JFK and made her way to New York for an overnight stay. She told
me that the immigration officer looked at her papers, stamped her
passport and said "Welcome to the USA". Perhaps he reads AUE.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
the Omrud
It's the establishment belonging to the Dry Cleaner (or the Butcher,
or the Baker). We are, after all, a nation of shopkeepers <turns
towards Trafalgar>
the Omrud
Not by us, you haven't. Somebody's 'avin' a larf.
the Omrud
> OK, I will pronounce. It is not and Americanism, conscious or
> otherwise. "ketchup" carries no overtone of US English. It's a
> perfectly normal UK term exciting no interest in the origin of the
> speaker. Some people call the stuff "tomato sauce", but I can't
> discern any inference one can draw from which of these two options is
> chosen, in relation to origin or indeed class (which is likely a more
> common differentiator).
For goodness sake, did I write that? It is in reality perfect, but
entirely dense. Parse that!
Areff
> Since you were kind enough to express interest in Daughter's trip to
> the land of the free, I can announce that she has now landed safely
> at JFK and made her way to New York for an overnight stay. She told
> me that the immigration officer looked at her papers, stamped her
> passport and said "Welcome to the USA". Perhaps he reads AUE.
Cool. Hope she enjoys Candlewood Lake when she heads oop north.
Areff
> Did the same source tell you we have Maize Flakes for breakfast too?
My experiences in Britain some years ago taught me that British
breakfasters eat either (a) fried eggs, bacon, sausage, toast, grilled
tomahto, waffles made out of potato, or some variation on that theme, or
(b) "Muesli(x)", a postwar foodstuff apparently of Continental 5C
European (specifically Alpine?) origin.
ray o'hara
We have lots of Italian-Americans in Boston, the North End, East Boston
and Readville are all Italian neighborhoods and my town{Dedham} which is
next to Readville is over run with them.
Anybody here who put Ketchup on pasta around here would get hung, drawn and
quartered. Actually real Italians-Americans call it gravy not sauce.
ray o'hara
"Robin Bignall" > >
> Because somebody aboard the Mayflower forgot to pack the bloody
>
>
> Robin
Be careful what you say about apostrophes buddy.
Paul Wolff
<usenet...@gmail.com> writes
For me, 'tomato sauce' was the BrE norm for the bottled stuff decades
ago (but others here seem to disagree: I can only speak for my own
experience), but 'ketchup' has slowly taken over without being seen as a
particular American copying. It's a fair suggestion that
differentiation from a cook's tomato sauce is part of the reason, but
it's unlikely to be the whole reason, if only because cooking is a dying
art. I don't suppose the current BrE second syllable stress on
kilometre and harass has arrived as a conscious copying from elsewhere
either. Words change.
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo!
Robin Bignall
wrote:
Are you feeling possessive about them, Ray?
--
Robin
ray o'hara
"Robin Bignall" <docr...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:8g6pb15gj0h9aqlvu...@4ax.com...
You should see me when they leave it out when spelling my name.
ray o'hara
They will never sell anything named Mueslix as food in the U.S.A, a more
unappetizing name can't be found. Plus the ad campaign made the mistake of
saying it's what Euros eat saying anything is big in Europe will kill it
here{remember Slim Whitman?}.
R H Draney
>
>Since you were kind enough to express interest in Daughter's trip to
>the land of the free, I can announce that she has now landed safely
>at JFK and made her way to New York for an overnight stay. She told
>me that the immigration officer looked at her papers, stamped her
>passport and said "Welcome to the USA". Perhaps he reads AUE.
Nah...if if he did, he would have said "Welcome to Leftpondia"....r
Areff
> We have lots of Italian-Americans in Boston, the North End,
Isn't the North End now a yuppie neighborhood?
> East Boston
I thought East Boston was demolished when they built Logan Airport.
rban...@shaw.ca
wrote:
>Areff wrote:
>>(Let's ignore the fact that there are no independent
>>butcher stores outside of New York and a few other East Coast cities, and
>>that the traditional barbershop [associated with Italian-Americans in
>>some Eastern cities but with Norwegian-Americans in Seattle] is all but
>>dead in most places.)
>>
>
>Balderdash!
Was he not one of those Norse godlets? Put his foot in an arrow or
something.
rban...@shaw.ca
wrote:
[-]
>OK, I will pronounce.
I shall pronounce that to be a dodgy sort of usage. Even in the Manc
conurbation.
[-]
rban...@shaw.ca
wrote:
>Areff spake thusly:
>
[-]
>>
>> So the fact that AmE uses the expression "the cleaners" indicates that we
>> think of the cleaners as a plural, for some reason. So why don't we say
>> "the cleaner"?
>
>It's the establishment belonging to the Dry Cleaner (or the Butcher,
>or the Baker). We are, after all, a nation of shopkeepers <turns
>towards Trafalgar>
I suppose that _is_ the general direction of the birthplaces of the
owners of those establishments. The natives now tend to clerk for
some form of the Gummint. Worse Oop North of course; poor sods are
on the road and 'phone all the time.
Murray Arnow
>Murray Arnow wrote:
>
>>Areff wrote:
>>>(Let's ignore the fact that there are no independent
>>>butcher stores outside of New York and a few other East Coast cities, and
>>>that the traditional barbershop [associated with Italian-Americans in
>>>some Eastern cities but with Norwegian-Americans in Seattle] is all but
>>>dead in most places.)
>>>
>>
>>Balderdash!
>
>Was he not one of those Norse godlets? Put his foot in an arrow or
>something.
Did he need a teutonus shot?
ray o'hara
Logan is built on landfill and the old Bird Island Flats, a mudbank only
visible at hightide,nothing was demolished. Maybe you're thinking of the
West End which was torn down to build the monstrosity called Government
Center.
ray o'hara
<rban...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:> >Balderdash!
>
> Was he not one of those Norse godlets? Put his foot in an arrow or
> something.
LOL!!!
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Matti Lamprhey wrote:
>> I have a feeling that fewer Brits are calling tomato ketchup "tomato
>> sauce" these days, because of the increasing awareness of what we might
>> refer to as "genuine tomato sauce" in foreign cuisine.
>
>Gotcha. That makes me wonder whether, 25 or 50 years ago (cf. Kojak
>Conjecture), something similar occurred in the US. We know that until the
>1960s (at the earliest) it was standard practice for *most* Americans to
>serve spaghetti with either Heinz tomato ketchup (then called 'catsup' I
>believe) or Campbell's tomato soup. This was before the era of pre-made
>jarred pasta sauces (the ordinary name for which in AmE is "tomato
>sauce"). So was ketchup ever called "tomato sauce" in AmE, particularly
>when it was served in nominally Italian-inspired dishes? EMWTK. Coop,
>provide us with your recollections
>please.
Good Lord. Pasta with ketchup? You New Yawkers are animals!
Since there wasn't an Italian or Sicilian close enough to my family
tree to be in shade of it in the late afternoon, pasta wasn't a dish
often found on our table. Macaroni in cheese was as close as we got.
As a teenager in the 50s, though, I had meals enough at other people's
houses, and meals where spaghetti was served. The sauces were
scratch-made and simmered for hours. I never particularly liked
cooked tomatoes, and the sauces were made of cooked tomatoes and other
ingredients. Too watery for my taste.
Campbell's soup on pasta, though? Never.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando FL
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Aaron Davies wrote:
>> Murray Arnow <ar...@iname.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Areff wrote:
>>>
>>> > (Let's ignore the fact that there are no independent butcher stores
>>> > outside of New York and a few other East Coast cities, and that the
>>> > traditional barbershop [associated with Italian-Americans in some
>>> > Eastern cities but with Norwegian-Americans in Seattle] is all but dead
>>> > in most places.)
>>>
>>> Balderdash!
>>
>> Ditto--there's at least one of each within five minutes of my apartment
>> here in Louisville.
>
>Okay, all I know is that Coop goes to "Supercuts". As Orlando goes, so
>goes America, or so I thought.
>
Dunno where you get that. I go to a traditional barbershop with three
male barbers.
Tony Cooper
<harve...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>On 24 Jun 2005, Areff wrote
>
>-snip-
>
>> So the fact that AmE uses the expression "the cleaners" indicates
>> that we think of the cleaners as a plural, for some reason. So why
>> don't we say "the cleaner"?
>
>Because that's reserved for the person who comes in to dust and vacuum
>your house?
The cleaner is the mob guy that gets rid of the body.
Areff
> They will never sell anything named Mueslix as food in the U.S.A, a more
> unappetizing name can't be found. Plus the ad campaign made the mistake of
> saying it's what Euros eat saying anything is big in Europe will kill it
> here{remember Slim Whitman?}.
I remember the early '80s (1981-ish) TV ad campaign for the Slim Whitman
compilation recording. They emphasized that he'd sold more records than
the Beatles and Elvis combined, or something like that. No one had ever
heard of him before.
Also and around that time, Slim Whitman starred with Indira Gandhi in the
musical _Indira_, memorably collaborating on "Don't Cry for Me
Rawalpindi".
Areff
It was a mistletoe dart guided by Loki (The Tony Cooper of Norse Mythology).
R J Valentine
...
} Gotcha. That makes me wonder whether, 25 or 50 years ago (cf. Kojak
} Conjecture), something similar occurred in the US. We know that until the
} 1960s (at the earliest) it was standard practice for *most* Americans to
} serve spaghetti with either Heinz tomato ketchup (then called 'catsup' I
} believe) or Campbell's tomato soup. This was before the era of pre-made
} jarred pasta sauces (the ordinary name for which in AmE is "tomato
} sauce"). So was ketchup ever called "tomato sauce" in AmE, particularly
} when it was served in nominally Italian-inspired dishes? EMWTK. Coop,
} provide us with your recollections
} please.
I'm not Coop (though I have a kid who used to shop there). But ketchup
("catsup" on some bottles) was always different from tomato sauce when I
was growing up (which a lot of people think is still in the works). A
decent quasiscratch spaghetti sauce involved cans of tomato sauce plus
those tiny little cans of tomato paste with various spices and seasonings.
Ketchup is to tomato sauce what mustard is to mayonnaise. Late night at
the diner they'd have ketchup bottles mating on some of the tables to get
ready for another day. Tomato sauce pours; ketchup oozes; and tomato
paste will just sit there upside-down all day.
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@theWorld.com>
R J Valentine
In _Three Days of the Condor_ (based on _Six Days of the Condor_), it was
the government folks at the WTC that sent them in when Robert Redford's
title character called in the hit.
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@theWorld.com>
"I read." (= SparkE "I reed.")
ray o'hara
"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:> Good
Lord. Pasta with ketchup? You New Yawkers are animals!
Trust me, no one in NewYork ever put ketchup on pasta. To do so would be to
court "sleeping with the fishes".
It's odd that nobody has brought up the fact that although ketchup is a
meat sauce it is mostly used on french fries{that's freedom fries to you red
staters}.
ray o'hara
"R J Valentine" <r...@TheWorld.com> wrote in message
news:d9ijuq$pbn$2...@pcls4.std.com...
A funny scene in that movie is when he notices the Letter Carrier has
sneakers on instead of black shoesand decides he's a fake and kills him. If
you went by that you'd kill a lot of innocent mailmen, they're happy when we
wear the correct pants and shirt.
Charles Riggs
<r...@TheWorld.com> wrote:
>Tomato sauce pours; ketchup oozes; and tomato
>paste will just sit there upside-down all day.
I'd have assumed so, but wanted to run an experiment to verify it.
After suspending a can of tomato paste for 45 minutes over a bowl, not
the tiniest amount of paste dropped out of it. I think it is safe to
assume that, for all practical purposes, tomato paste will sit there
upside-down all day.
A 150 g can of Roma Tomato Purée at room temperature, and our weather
has returned to normal, is what I used. The experiment was done away
from sunlight or artificial light; the atmospheric pressure was 765 mm
of mercury, instrument calibration on file; and the humidity was 71%,
no calibration data available.
Afterwards, I added the paste to the pork barbecue preparation I made
yesterday, if anyone is curious.
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>Mike Lyle wrote:
>> Areff wrote:
>>> My question is, why do the presumptively BrE
>>> speakers involved (the stainer and the stainee) refer to ketchup as
>>> "ketchup" rather than "tomato sauce"?
>>
>> US reverse-colonialism. Only the most refined -- viz., or at any rate
>> e.g., the ones you meet at AUE -- these days even know there are
>> other kinds of ketchup. And, in their defence (I've always supported
>> the underdog), the staineur and stainee in question almost certainly
>> reserve "tomato sauce" for something you cook in a saucepan but which
>> is not mushroom sauce, parsley sauce, bread sauce, raspberry sauce,
>> etc etc. (Have I missed a nuance, or are you having memory problems
>> again, Richard?)
>
>The nuance is that in BrE the condiment that Americans call "[tomato]
>ketchup" seems to be called "tomato sauce". If these people are using the
>term "ketchup", is that a conscious Americanism of the sort that the
>Omrud (Final Arbiter of British English Usage), say, finds alarming?
Whatever and whoever. Ketchup is called ketchup the world 'round.
Charles Riggs
TCE is spreading.
Steve Hayes
>There's a scandal currently rocking the globe involving the London office
>of the law firm of Baker & McKenzie (which is sort of the McDonald's of
>international law firms) where a secretary got some ketchup stains on the
>trousers of a lawyer or possibly a "legal executive". Here's a CNN
>article on the incident.
>
>http://tinyurl.com/8hae3
>
>My question is, why do the presumptively BrE
>speakers involved (the stainer and the stainee) refer to ketchup as
>"ketchup" rather than "tomato sauce"?
If they're an international law firm they probably do business in Malaysia,
Singapore and Indonesia, where kechap comes from.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>I don't suppose the current BrE second syllable stress on
>kilometre and harass has arrived as a conscious copying from elsewhere
>either. Words change.
Interesting - both versions are common here.
I say HARass and KILometre. The latter because that is what I was taught at
school, when it was a foreign measurement anyway.
But when we went metric and the word entered common speech, a lot of people
said "kilOmetre" (though they didn't say "millImetre"). Perhaps it was by
analogy with "speedometer".
Everyone I heard pronounced "harass" with the stress on the first syllable
until we got TV in 1975, and a few years later there was a cops and robbers
series called "Cagney and Lacey", where the protagonists pronounced it with
stress on the second syllable. I think that was about 1983-1985.
So I have a Cagney thesis to match Areff's Fonzie thesis -- that the "harASS"
pronunciation spread through the TV series.
The other day I was listening to a radio news broadcast where a white
English-speaking reporter was intervieing a black representative of a
taxi-owners' association about a proposed strike, on the grounds that the
police were harassing taxi drivers. The reporter consistently used "harASS"
and "harASSment" (the Cagney pronunciation) while the taxi bloke (for whom
English was presumably a second language) consistently said "HARass".
I suspect that may have been because he did not come from an affluent
background, and his family did not have TV at the time that the Cagney and
Lacey series was broadcast.
Steve Hayes
>OK, I will pronounce. It is not and Americanism, conscious or
>otherwise. "ketchup" carries no overtone of US English. It's a
>perfectly normal UK term exciting no interest in the origin of the
>speaker. Some people call the stuff "tomato sauce", but I can't
>discern any inference one can draw from which of these two options is
>chosen, in relation to origin or indeed class (which is likely a more
>common differentiator).
My ancient COD, c1964, agrees. Not an Americanism, but probably derived from
Chinese, it says.
Also gives "catsup" as a variant of "ketchup:, but nary a word about US
origin.
Steve Hayes
>Ross Howard wrote:
>> Did the same source tell you we have Maize Flakes for breakfast too?
>
>My experiences in Britain some years ago taught me that British
>breakfasters eat either (a) fried eggs, bacon, sausage, toast, grilled
>tomahto, waffles made out of potato, or some variation on that theme, or
>(b) "Muesli(x)", a postwar foodstuff apparently of Continental 5C
>European (specifically Alpine?) origin.
Last month, driving down a Welsh mountainside, my wife and I simultaneously
remarked "I'm feeling peckish".
We rounded the next bend and, as if by magic, there was a little food cart,
with "Snax" on the side.
So we stopped for breakfast, and the next customer who came asked for "Best
and mushrooms".
Neither we nor the pie cart lady understood what he was talking about, so he
explained, "Best - B*E*S*T - Bacon, Eggs, Sausage, Tomato".
How common is that in BrE?
Whatever it is, we've adopted it, and will be having best for breakfast
shortly.
Steve Hayes
>That doesn't explain why "tomato sauce" wasn't used. We've been led to
>believe that "tomato sauce" is the *usual* BrE term for what Americans
>call "ketchup".
Perhaps that's another misle.
Steve Hayes
>Ross Howard wrote:
>> Did the same source tell you we have Maize Flakes for breakfast too?
>
>My experiences in Britain some years ago taught me that British
>breakfasters eat either (a) fried eggs, bacon, sausage, toast, grilled
>tomahto, waffles made out of potato, or some variation on that theme, or
>(b) "Muesli(x)", a postwar foodstuff apparently of Continental 5C
>European (specifically Alpine?) origin.
Last month, driving down a Welsh mountainside, my wife and I simultaneously
remarked "I'm feeling peckish".
We rounded the next bend and, as if by magic, there was a little food cart,
with "Snax" on the side.
So we stopped for breakfast, and the next customer who came asked for "Best
and mushrooms".
Neither we nor the pie cart lady understood what he was talking about, so he
explained, "Best - B*E*S*T - Bacon, Eggs, Sausage, Tomato".
How common is that in BrE?
Whatever it is, we've adopted it, and will be having best for breakfast
shortly.
Steve Hayes
>That doesn't explain why "tomato sauce" wasn't used. We've been led to
>believe that "tomato sauce" is the *usual* BrE term for what Americans
>call "ketchup".
Perhaps that's another misle.
--
Steve Hayes
--
Matti Lamprhey
> [...]
> So we stopped for breakfast, and the next customer who came asked for
> "Best and mushrooms".
>
> Neither we nor the pie cart lady understood what he was talking about,
> so he explained, "Best - B*E*S*T - Bacon, Eggs, Sausage, Tomato".
>
> How common is that in BrE?
These days it tends to be BESSSSSSSSSST.
Bloody spam.
Matti
Matti Lamprhey
> [...]
> Afterwards, I added the paste to the pork barbecue preparation I made
> yesterday, if anyone is curious.
You don't have to be curious to post here, but it helps.
Matti
Alan Jones
"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nftpb1hoe8tbag8rp...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:21:35 +0000 (UTC), Areff <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>That doesn't explain why "tomato sauce" wasn't used. We've been led to
>>believe that "tomato sauce" is the *usual* BrE term for what Americans
>>call "ketchup".
>
> Perhaps that's another misle.
It must be. I've never thought "ketchup" an AmE word. NSOED shows it as
found first in the late 17th century, and notes "catsup" as a variant used
in the US. "Tomato sauce" is a common BrE alternative, probably because it
matches "brown sauce" or "HP sauce", in the company of which tomato ketchup
is to be found in a "greasy spoon cafe" or indeed on my sideboard (where it
rubs shoulders with Worcester sauce). Sauces of this condiment kind are
often enjoyed with a UK cooked breakfast or a snack.
Alan Jones
ray o'hara
"Matti Lamprhey" <ma...@official-totally-reversed.com> wrote in message
news:3i4getF...@individual.net...
A good pork barbecue marinade should have a base of apple vinegar,molasses
and brown surgar with spices added to taste but never any tomato.
Ross Howard
wrought:
Am I imagining things or do we, perhaps unconsciously, prefer
"ketchup" for the very thick, quite sweetish stuff (Heinz or similar)
and "tomato sauce" for the very thin, quite vinegary stuff that is
traditionally squirted all over eggbaconsausagetomatochipsbeans
greasy-spoon breakfasts?
--
Ross Howard
the Omrud
If you ever had to fire one for not pulling his weight, did you pay
him his holiday entitlement?
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
the Omrud
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:34:30 +0000 (UTC), Areff <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> >Ross Howard wrote:
> >> Did the same source tell you we have Maize Flakes for breakfast too?
> >
> >My experiences in Britain some years ago taught me that British
> >breakfasters eat either (a) fried eggs, bacon, sausage, toast, grilled
> >tomahto, waffles made out of potato, or some variation on that theme, or
> >(b) "Muesli(x)", a postwar foodstuff apparently of Continental 5C
> >European (specifically Alpine?) origin.
>
> Last month, driving down a Welsh mountainside, my wife and I simultaneously
> remarked "I'm feeling peckish".
>
> We rounded the next bend and, as if by magic, there was a little food cart,
> with "Snax" on the side.
>
> So we stopped for breakfast, and the next customer who came asked for "Best
> and mushrooms".
>
> Neither we nor the pie cart lady understood what he was talking about, so he
> explained, "Best - B*E*S*T - Bacon, Eggs, Sausage, Tomato".
>
> How common is that in BrE?
I never heard it before.
> Whatever it is, we've adopted it, and will be having best for breakfast
> shortly.
--
the Omrud
> Ross Howard wrote:
> > Did the same source tell you we have Maize Flakes for breakfast too?
>
> My experiences in Britain some years ago taught me that British
> breakfasters eat either (a) fried eggs, bacon, sausage, toast, grilled
> tomahto, waffles made out of potato, or some variation on that theme, or
> (b) "Muesli(x)", a postwar foodstuff apparently of Continental 5C
> European (specifically Alpine?) origin.
Toast. You missed toast. Probably with Marmite or marmalade. And
children tend to have disgustingly sweet cereal.
Muesli is Swiss in origin, I think. I am eating some now. Bacon,
eggs, sausage, etc, are highly suitable for farm workers, steel
makers and dray men, but the sedentary programmer is inclined to pile
on the stones if he breakfasts on these items. I usually just have
toast with Marmite, or cereal.
Raymond S. Wise
Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:47:15 +0000 (UTC), Areff <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> >There's a scandal currently rocking the globe involving the London office
> >of the law firm of Baker & McKenzie (which is sort of the McDonald's of
> >international law firms) where a secretary got some ketchup stains on the
> >trousers of a lawyer or possibly a "legal executive". Here's a CNN
> >article on the incident.
> >
> >http://tinyurl.com/8hae3
> >
> >My question is, why do the presumptively BrE
> >speakers involved (the stainer and the stainee) refer to ketchup as
> >"ketchup" rather than "tomato sauce"?
>
> If they're an international law firm they probably do business in Malaysia,
> Singapore and Indonesia, where kechap comes from.
The word, yes, but not the tomato-based condiment, according to what
I've read.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Mike Barnes
>Ketchup is to tomato sauce what mustard is to mayonnaise.
<boggles>
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Mike Barnes
>Areff spake thusly:
>> The nuance is that in BrE the condiment that Americans call "[tomato]
>> ketchup" seems to be called "tomato sauce". If these people are using the
>> term "ketchup", is that a conscious Americanism of the sort that the
>> Omrud (Final Arbiter of British English Usage), say, finds alarming?
>
>otherwise. "ketchup" carries no overtone of US English. It's a
>perfectly normal UK term exciting no interest in the origin of the
>speaker. Some people call the stuff "tomato sauce", but I can't
>discern any inference one can draw from which of these two options is
>chosen, in relation to origin or indeed class (which is likely a more
>common differentiator).
Indeed. I might add that AFAIK the labels on the bottles always say
"Tomato Ketchup", not "Tomato Sauce", and always have done.
There. That's two alwayses, both guesswork. Come and get me.
Alan Jones
"Ross Howard" <ggu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:367qb1p4nmo2gm30d...@4ax.com...
Perhaps. But I've always supposed that the thin stuff is just a cheap
substitute and that a decent cooked breakfast, even at the roadside, would
be smothered in proper ketchup. Lorry drivers (AmE truckers) should insist
on it.
Alan Jones
Rick Wotnaz
news:d9hpuo$f96$1...@news.wss.yale.edu:
[...]
> This was before the era of pre-made
> jarred pasta sauces (the ordinary name for which in AmE is
> "tomato sauce").
This is news to me. I am familiar with canned "tomato sauce", which
is something on the order of crushed tomatoes, with much more
liquid than tomato paste, but not much in the way of spices. I
can't imagine anyone putting that on pasta directly. Ketchup, maybe
-- but not for adults, surely. Kids will eat ketchup on anything.
However, knowing that Richard is never Dead Wrong (RINDW), I went
out a-Googling to see what I could see and what I saw was a recipe
for Tomato Sauce that included tomato sauce as an ingredient.
Presuming it's not something like sourdough, where you need a
starter pinched from the last batch, there must indeed be a use of
the phrase in both senses, acceptable even in the same head-space
somehow.
Not mine,though. If "pasta sauce" didn't exist as a phrase back in
the day, it does now, and must surely have come into existence
because both senses of tomato sauce could not peacefully coexist.
The recipe, by the way
(from <www.cooksrecipes.com/sauce/tomato-sauce-recipe.html> ):
Tomato Sauce
2 tablespoons olive or vegetable oil
1 large onion, chopped
1 (15-ounce) can tomato sauce
1 (6-ounce) can tomato paste
1/2 cup dry red wine
1 teaspoon dry oregano leaves
1 teaspoon dry basil leaves
Salt to taste
1. Heat oil in a wide frying pan over medium heat; add onion
and cook, stirring often, until softened, about 5 minutes.
2. Stir in tomato sauce, tomato paste, wine, oregano and
basil. Bring to a simmer; then simmer, uncovered, for 10 minutes.
Season to taste with salt.
Makes about 4 cups sauce.
Mike Lyle
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:37:48 GMT, the Omrud
<usenet...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> OK, I will pronounce. It is not and Americanism, conscious or
>> otherwise. "ketchup" carries no overtone of US English. It's a
>> perfectly normal UK term exciting no interest in the origin of the
>> speaker. Some people call the stuff "tomato sauce", but I can't
>> discern any inference one can draw from which of these two options
is
>> chosen, in relation to origin or indeed class (which is likely a
more
>> common differentiator).
>
> My ancient COD, c1964, agrees. Not an Americanism, but probably
> derived from Chinese, it says.
>
> Also gives "catsup" as a variant of "ketchup:, but nary a word
about
> US origin.
Yes, but as we've observed before, that misses out a step in
evolution. In the 1906 Beeton, all ketchups were _runny_ , and the
kinds were: Anchovy, Cucumber, Mushroom, Mustapha (or Liver), Pontac,
and Walnut -- no tomato. The three recipes for what we'd recognize as
bottled tomato ketchup are all headed "Tomato Sauce". On the plate
showing commercial bottled sauces there isn't a tomato one, though
another plate shows that Heinz's (sic) Baked Beans in Tomato Sauce
were already established.
American sources will tell us when sieved tomato sauce acquired the
name "ketchup", and Australian shoppers can tell us which brands
still say "sauce" on the label. OED1 says ketchup can be made from
the juice of tomatoes, among other things, but doesn't get specific
about viscosity.
My point is that we have a double derivation here. Yes, "ketchup"
comes from the Chinese; but the BrEtcE application to the tomato kind
comes from American usage, because it refers to a radically different
_type_ of sauce, since the others are essentially infusions, not
reductions. To that extent it's historically an Americanism, though
it's perfectly naturalized: I'd say, though cautiously, that the
naturalization took place in my lifetime.
--
Mike.
Mike Lyle
I'm pretty curious, I admit. But, being inquisitive too, I wonder
when and why Charles stopped being a vegetarian.
--
Mike.
Frances Kemmish
> I'm pretty curious, I admit. But, being inquisitive too, I wonder
> when and why Charles stopped being a vegetarian.
>
I don't recall when Charles became a vegetarian. I do remember him
bemoaning the lack of good fillet steak in Ireland.
Fran
Pat Durkin
"Mike Barnes" <june...@mikebarnes.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:oo66KpDb...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid...
> In alt.usage.english, R J Valentine wrote:
> >Ketchup is to tomato sauce what mustard is to mayonnaise.
>
> <boggles>
I agree. I would never have made that latter association.
R H Draney
>
>So we stopped for breakfast, and the next customer who came asked for "Best
>and mushrooms".
>
>Neither we nor the pie cart lady understood what he was talking about, so he
>explained, "Best - B*E*S*T - Bacon, Eggs, Sausage, Tomato".
>
>How common is that in BrE?
>
>Whatever it is, we've adopted it, and will be having best for breakfast
>shortly.
I learned a few years ago that the restaurant I grew up calling the
"International House Of Pancakes" is now simply "IHOP", much as "Kentucky Fried
Chicken" is "KFC"...("DVD", once an abbreviation for "Digital Video Disc" and
then "Digital Versatile Disc", is now simply the item's name and not an
abbreviation at all)....
One of the selections on IHOP's breakfast menu contains no pancakes at all, but
it wouldn't do to call the place "International House Of Sausage, Eggs, Biscuits
And Gravy"..."IHOSEBAG" just sounds nasty....
From another newsgroup and another century comes this story of acronymous food:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.folklore.urban/msg/586ed398617df527
....r
rban...@shaw.ca
wrote:
>rbaniste1 wrote:
>>Murray Arnow wrote:
>>
>>>Areff wrote:
>>>>(Let's ignore the fact that there are no independent
>>>>butcher stores outside of New York and a few other East Coast cities, and
>>>>that the traditional barbershop [associated with Italian-Americans in
>>>>some Eastern cities but with Norwegian-Americans in Seattle] is all but
>>>>dead in most places.)
>>>>
>>>
>>>Balderdash!
>>
>>Was he not one of those Norse godlets? Put his foot in an arrow or
>>something.
>
>Did he need a teutonus shot?
That is not really in Areff's line but I see he appears to know Lokal
stuff.
Iskandar Baharuddin
"Areff" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:d9hgv3$682$1...@news.wss.yale.edu...
> There's a scandal currently rocking the globe involving the
> London office
> of the law firm of Baker & McKenzie (which is sort of the
> McDonald's of
> international law firms) where a secretary got some ketchup
> stains on the
> trousers of a lawyer or possibly a "legal executive". Here's
> a CNN
> article on the incident.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/8hae3
>
> My question is, why do the presumptively BrE
> speakers involved (the stainer and the stainee) refer to
> ketchup as
> "ketchup" rather than "tomato sauce"?
>
Malaysian "kicap", probably both derived from Chinese?
I recall asking for Worcestershire sauce in Jakarta. After a
length discussion the waiter finally understood that what I
wanted was "kecap Inggeris".
I eventually learned to ask for "Lea Perrin".
Izzy
Mike Lyle
[...]
> Does "ketchup" perhaps derive from the Indonesian "kecap" or the
> Malaysian "kicap", probably both derived from Chinese?
>
> I recall asking for Worcestershire sauce in Jakarta. After a
> length discussion the waiter finally understood that what I
> wanted was "kecap Inggeris".
>
> I eventually learned to ask for "Lea Perrin".
As you've seen from other messages in the thread, yes, your
derivation is correct. "English ketchup" is a good expression for
Worcestershire sauce, too: the real thing still contains anchovies,
and the early English ketchup recipes are at least slightly fishy,
just as the Malay liquid came from pickled fish. (Compare those
smelly but delicious South-East Asian fish sauces.)
--
Mike.
Iskandar Baharuddin
start? Is "speedometer" a sufficient explanation? And why is it
not simply a "speedmeter"?
Perhaps we should just fall into line with the Yanks and call
them "klicks".
Izzy
Charles Riggs
Fran is totally correct. While I bemoan the fact I enjoy the taste of
dead cooked animals, I haven't entirely stopped eating them. Mostly
though, I am a vegetarian, as befits a person of my refined East Coast
sensibilities. But you can be sure that my friend No Ears, a man not
anywhere near the East or even the West Coast, eats at least one
bloody steak a week.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Areff <m...@privacy.net> wrote in
> news:d9hpuo$f96$1...@news.wss.yale.edu:
>
> [...]
>> This was before the era of pre-made jarred pasta sauces (the
>> ordinary name for which in AmE is "tomato sauce").
>
> This is news to me. I am familiar with canned "tomato sauce", which
> is something on the order of crushed tomatoes, with much more liquid
> than tomato paste, but not much in the way of spices. I can't
> imagine anyone putting that on pasta directly. Ketchup, maybe -- but
> not for adults, surely. Kids will eat ketchup on anything.
>
> However, knowing that Richard is never Dead Wrong (RINDW), I went
> out a-Googling to see what I could see and what I saw was a recipe
> for Tomato Sauce that included tomato sauce as an ingredient.
> Presuming it's not something like sourdough, where you need a
> starter pinched from the last batch, there must indeed be a use of
> the phrase in both senses, acceptable even in the same head-space
> somehow.
That's the way it is in my dialect. "Tomato sauce" is tomato-based
pasta sauce that isn't "meat sauce". It would have canned tomato
sauce (or possibly fresh tomatoes) and tomato paste as a base.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If the human brain were so simple
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |That we could understand it,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |We would be so simple
|That we couldn't.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Areff
> Areff <m...@privacy.net> wrote in
> news:d9hpuo$f96$1...@news.wss.yale.edu:
>
> [...]
>> This was before the era of pre-made
>> jarred pasta sauces (the ordinary name for which in AmE is
>> "tomato sauce").
>
> This is news to me. I am familiar with canned "tomato sauce", which
> is something on the order of crushed tomatoes, with much more
> liquid than tomato paste, but not much in the way of spices. I
> can't imagine anyone putting that on pasta directly.
Me neither, but it may have been done. I think canned tomato sauce of the
sort you probably mean has, however, been used as a component in some
recipes for tomato sauce. Moreover, there have also been true canned
tomato sauces -- like jarred tomato sauce, a poor substitute for the real
thing, but there's one brand that's only sold in Connecticut ("Don
Pepino") that's above average for the genre, despite the metallic element.
> Ketchup, maybe
> -- but not for adults, surely.
Different times, different mores.
> Not mine,though. If "pasta sauce" didn't exist as a phrase back in
> the day, it does now, and must surely have come into existence
> because both senses of tomato sauce could not peacefully coexist.
But "pasta sauce" can mean non-tomato things too, at least in my dialect.
I'll grant you that there's some important sense in which the default sort
of sauce for pasta seems to be some sort of tomato sauce (probably some
sort of marinara-type sauce).
Areff
> Yes, but as we've observed before, that misses out a step in
> evolution. In the 1906 Beeton, all ketchups were _runny_ , and the
> kinds were: Anchovy, Cucumber, Mushroom, Mustapha (or Liver), Pontac,
> and Walnut -- no tomato. The three recipes for what we'd recognize as
> bottled tomato ketchup are all headed "Tomato Sauce". On the plate
> showing commercial bottled sauces there isn't a tomato one, though
> another plate shows that Heinz's (sic) Baked Beans in Tomato Sauce
> were already established.
The Heinz baked beans type of tomato sauce is still another category. It's
not ketchup, and it's not tomato sauce in the common modern sense.
Areff
I remember him talking about cooking hamburgers and meatloaf.
He's a Buddhist, though.
Areff
> That's the way it is in my dialect. "Tomato sauce" is tomato-based
> pasta sauce that isn't "meat sauce".
That's interesting. I'd say that for me "tomato sauce" includes
tomato-based pasta sauces that include meat (which I call "meat sauce"),
though I can imagine a sauce that was so meat-oriented that it lost all
tomato-ness and ceased to be notionally tomato sauce.
ray o'hara
"Iskandar Baharuddin" >
> I recall asking for Worcestershire sauce in Jakarta. After a
> length discussion the waiter finally understood that what I
> wanted was "kecap Inggeris".
>
> I eventually learned to ask for "Lea Perrin".
>
> Izzy
At the Vicksburg Nattional Military Park in Vicksburg Mississippi the
ironclad warship the U.S.S.Cairo {prononced KAYRO} on display{sunk in 1863
and raised in 1963}, one of the items recovered from the wreck is a Lea &
Perrins bottle, they have not changed the shape or size of of the bottle in
all this time.