Greengrocer's apostrophe
Anthony John Xenos
people using single and double quotation marks in inappropriate places. What
I'd like to know is the etymology of the term. In other words, who is the
Green Grocer?
Craig
--
--
Tony Xenos Craig A. Butz
10 Hocking Street 2498 Mineral Road
Athens, Ohio 45701 New Marshfield, Ohio 45766-9747
Eric Landau
> In Britain, a 'greengrocer' is a seller of fruit and vegetables. Do I
> take it that there is no such shop in the USA? If there is, what do
> you call it? If not, what do you call the equivalent counter in, say,
> a supermarket?
"Produce market"/"produce counter," although "greengrocer" isn't totally
unheard of.
--
Eric Landau, APL Solutions, Inc. (ela...@cais.com)
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger." -- Abbie Hoffman
BBULLMAN
<mic...@quinion.demon.co.uk> writes:
>In Britain, a 'greengrocer' is a seller of fruit and vegetables. Do I
>take it that there is no such shop in the USA? If there is, what do
>you call it? If not, what do you call the equivalent counter in, say,
>a supermarket?
>
>
In the USA we refer to fruit and vegetables as produce.
The section in the grocery store is called the "produce section."
I'm not sure about the actual seller, I have heard "produce-man" used, but
I don't know if a "proper" term exists for this person in the USA. This is
the first time I've ever heard "greengrocer"; I like it and I am going to
steal it.
Bruce (People may think that I'm insane, but only I know that I am.)
Gareth Williams
+We keep hearing references to the Greengrocer's apostrophe--less
educated
...... who is the
+Green Grocer?
+
In the UK, the greengocer advertises his wares on the plateglass
windows of his shop with a large brush and some white paint - potatoes
and potted chrysanthemums are among the items which make him infamous
- he blithely paints...
POT'S and POT MUM'S
for the amusement of passing AUEers.
+-Gareth Williams--------------------------------+
--- a computer is a tool to help the human being
to make mistakes much faster than he can unaided
+------------------------------------------------+
Stephen T MacGregor
>We keep hearing references to the Greengrocer's apostrophe--less educated
No -- the term means inappropriate use of the apostrophe to form the
plural of a noun, and has nothing to do with quotation marks (though
those guilty of this usage are also likely to use quotes for emphasis).
There's no one particular greengrocer that the term refers to; it seems
to be a world-wide phenomenon in the profession.
--
--------------------------------------------------------
I know everything; I just can't remember it all at once.
--------------------------------------------------------
KJBlake
Landau) writes:
>> In Britain, a 'greengrocer' is a seller of fruit and vegetables. Do I
>> take it that there is no such shop in the USA? If there is, what do
>> you call it? If not, what do you call the equivalent counter in, say,
>> a supermarket?
>
>"Produce market"/"produce counter," although "greengrocer" isn't totally
>unheard of.
Or just "grocery" or "grocery store." I've never seen "greengrocer" in the
U. S.
Mark Baker
mlo...@nyc.pipeline.com (Mark Odegard) writes:
>have called a shop specializing in just produce (fruits and
>veggies, plus other minor stuff) a "produce store". In a
>supermarket, it is called the "produce section".
It would be called the "fruit and veg section" in a supermarket
here.
Truly called it the "Produce department". Do Americans talk about
departments of supermarkets?
>We would NOT call it a "produce counter"; there is no counter,
>just self-service bins. And don't tell me you have to ask for
>your Granny Smiths or arugula from a clerk in Britain -- or
>do you?
No, although some greengrocers are not self service. Sainsburys
closed their last counter service shop in 1982
Geoff Butler
tr...@lunemere.com "Truly Donovan" writes:
> There aren't many "greengrocers" left in the USA, although you will still find
> some in New York City and perhaps other major urban areas, where you can also
> still find other specialty grocers such as independent butchers and
> fishmongers. [snip]
I'm pondering the difference between grocing and monging. Why
should you groce greens yet mong fish and iron? Chambers defines
both 'grocer' and 'monger' as 'dealer', although it adds, for
'monger', "except in a few instances, as /ironmonger/, one who
trafficks in a petty, or discreditable way, or in unpleasant
subjects". (cf 'rumourmonger'). The dreadful misuse of commas is
Chambers's's', not mine. The derivation of 'monger' is Latin
'mango', a slave dealer, so there seems to be a lot of pejorative
baggage in the word. But what was so bad about selling fish or
iron?
Geoff Butler
David 'Alwyn' Thomas
In article <DMKIE...@boss.cs.ohiou.edu>, ax82...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu (Anthony John Xenos) writes:
> who is the
> Green Grocer?
I imagine it's the person who sells fruit and veg and posts outside his shop:
Tomato's 1.50 per lb.
Banana's 2.30 per lb.
Potato's 80p per lb.
and such like.
Alwyn
Truly Donovan
>. . . And are Americans familiar with 'greens', usually as
>'spring greens', as a term for the leaves of brassicas sold as a
>vegetable? (In my youth these were usually the cut tops of Brussels
>sprouts, but OED2 says firmly that they were the leaves of cabbages,
>which is news to me.)
"Greens" in the USA generally refers to kale, collard greens, and other tough
and bitter green things that are cooked forever with ham hocks or fatback or
something like that to yield a southern specialty that most yankees look upon
with disdain and y'all don't come back no mo.
And I am one of the few Americans who finds Brussels sprouts, properly cooked,
a delight.
But I never ate the leaves.
Truly Donovan
Michael B. Quinion
Cunningham) writes:
> I'm not sure I had ever come across the term "greengrocer" before
> I saw it in a.u.e.. Do greengrocers offer red apples, orange carrots,
> yellow grapes, white squash, and purple eggplant? If so,
> "greengrocer" sounds like nearly as much of a misnomer as our "corn
> stand".
Indeed, greengrocery displays are usually very colourful; if they were
restricted to green vegetables they would do very little business. The
'green' in greengrocer derives from the same root (excuse my inadvertent
pun!) as the verb 'grow', and so 'green' could once mean any growing
thing, not just vegetables that were actually green. The plural form
'greens' came to be used as a noun meaning a green vegetable. Are
children in the USA exhorted -- as British ones once were -- to 'eat
your greens'? And are Americans familiar with 'greens', usually as
'spring greens', as a term for the leaves of brassicas sold as a
vegetable? (In my youth these were usually the cut tops of Brussels
sprouts, but OED2 says firmly that they were the leaves of cabbages,
which is news to me.)
And those of you who pointed out that 'counter' is the wrong word for
the display stands of fruit and vegetables in supermarkets are of course
quite right. Sloppy wording ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B Quinion <mic...@quinion.demon.co.uk> Thornbury, Bristol, UK
Michael Quinion Associates home page : <http://clever.net/mqa/>
World Wide Words : <http://clever.net/quinion/words/>
David Bertenshaw
> I'm not sure I had ever come across the term "greengrocer" before
>I saw it in a.u.e.. Do greengrocers offer red apples, orange carrots,
>yellow grapes, white squash,
No, but they may offer orange squash, lemon squash, lime squash,
blackcurrant squash...
Although the bigger chains are starting to offer much more variety, so
that 'squash' in the sense of
'some kind of vegetably thing a bit like a marrow but I don't
really know what it is'
is becoming more common, 'squash' to most people in the UK, I think,
would probably still mean
'concentrated fruit juice meant to be diluted with water'.
>and purple eggplant?
The most common name for this is, I think, aubergine.
> (Note to British readers: US "corn" equals UK "maize".)
Do you mean the heads of the maize - little yellow pea-shaped things
stuck onto a six inch inedible spear?
The BrEnglish for those is 'corn-on-the-cob', I think. As far as I
know, it's only maize when it's in the field - I've certainly never
seen the name used in a shop.
When the yellow pea-shaped things come out of a tin (without the spear
of course), they're sweetcorn.
David.
-----------------------------------------------------
David Bertenshaw E-Mail dav...@brookter.demon.co.uk
-----------------------------------------------------
David Bertenshaw
>Or just "grocery" or "grocery store." I've never seen "greengrocer" in the
>U. S.
In traditional English towns there would be a grocer (the general
store) and a greengrocer (for fresh produce).
Now of course there tends simply to be different types of -markets
(super, hyper, mega,)....
Gary Williams, Business Services Accounting
>> in, say, a supermarket?
I agree that "produce" would be the most common term for fruits and vegetables
in a supermarket. I can remember a time when food stores sold only food; at
that time we usually (in northeast Missouri) called them "grocery stores"; only
the people who worked there were much interested in distinguishing "grocery"
from "produce" from "dairy", etc.
Gary Williams
WILL...@AHECAS.AHEC.EDU
Al Fargnoli
Michael B. Quinion <mic...@quinion.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:In article: <4fu0u1$8...@cloner4.netcom.com> exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob
:Cunningham) writes:
:> I'm not sure I had ever come across the term "greengrocer" before
:> I saw it in a.u.e.. Do greengrocers offer red apples, orange carrots,
:> "greengrocer" sounds like nearly as much of a misnomer as our "corn
:> stand".
:
:Indeed, greengrocery displays are usually very colourful; if they were
:restricted to green vegetables they would do very little business. The
:'green' in greengrocer derives from the same root (excuse my inadvertent
:pun!) as the verb 'grow', and so 'green' could once mean any growing
:thing, not just vegetables that were actually green. The plural form
:'greens' came to be used as a noun meaning a green vegetable. Are
In the US, "greens" are the parts of turnips, carrots, et cetera that
Yankees feed to the livestock or throw away while Southerners boil
and serve to other humans. (Turnip greens or mustard greens are
found in every cafeteria in the Dallas/Ft. Worth Metro Area.)
:children in the USA exhorted -- as British ones once were -- to 'eat
:your greens'? And are Americans familiar with 'greens', usually as
^^^^^^
Nope. We say, "Eat your vegetables."
:'spring greens', as a term for the leaves of brassicas sold as a
:vegetable? (In my youth these were usually the cut tops of Brussels
:sprouts, but OED2 says firmly that they were the leaves of cabbages,
:which is news to me.)
Al Fargnoli
Who doesn't speak for DSC C C
Earle D. Jones
> We keep hearing references to the Greengrocer's apostrophe--less educated
> people using single and double quotation marks in inappropriate places.
========= clip here ==========
Readers of the San Francisco Chronicle will know that columnist Herb Caen
has a well organized 'postrophe patrol--ever on the lookout for the
misused apostrophe. We find them frequently.
Most common misuse is in the word it's when not used for it is.
The cat hurt it's paw.
Its time to go now.
While driving through the Salinas Valley I saw a large hand-lettered sign,
typical of those used by local farmers at their roadside stands. This one
advertisied strawberries (I think).
S'berrie's.
In big poorly painted letters.
regards, earle
==============
--
..no sig is good sig..
Rex Knepp
: In article <287481...@quinion.demon.co.uk> "Michael B. Quinion" <mic...@quinion.demon.co.uk> writes:
: >. . . And are Americans familiar with 'greens', usually as
: >'spring greens', as a term for the leaves of brassicas sold as a
: >vegetable? (In my youth these were usually the cut tops of Brussels
: >sprouts, but OED2 says firmly that they were the leaves of cabbages,
: >which is news to me.)
: "Greens" in the USA generally refers to kale, collard greens, and other tough
: and bitter green things that are cooked forever with ham hocks or fatback or
: something like that to yield a southern specialty that most yankees look upon
: with disdain and y'all don't come back no mo.
That also includes the leaves of mustard, beets, and turnips, and a
few other plants like "poke." People who won't eat spinach ('cause
of the taste, not 'cause of the grit) usually won't touch greens. It
is, however, pecularly southern to take this relatively benign vegetation
and cook it in enough grease to choke a hog.
-30-
rex
============================================================================
kn...@hou.moc.com
Rex Knepp - Marathon Oil Company - Tyler, TX
Marathon has no opinions: these are, therefore, mine.
=============================================================================
Jitze Couperus
dav...@brookter.demon.co.uk wrote:
> exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
>
> Although the bigger chains are starting to offer much more variety, so
> that 'squash' in the sense of
> 'some kind of vegetably thing a bit like a marrow but I don't
> really know what it is'
"Squash" in Merkin-land can cover all manner of sub-types - ranging
in size from overgrown cucumber to smaller things which I believe
the Brits refer to as "courgettes".
>
> >and purple eggplant?
>
> The most common name for this is, I think, aubergine.
>
Also referred to by Brits as "brinjals" or somesuch I thought ?
Translating in the opposite direction - does anybody know what the
American term for a "swede" is?
--
Jitze Couperus | coup...@cdc.com
Control Data Systems Inc | Tel: (408)541-4334
1306 Orleans Drive, Sunnyvale CA 94089 | Fax: (408)541-4106
Any opinions expressed are mine alone.
Mark Odegard
>In article <4fvas3$1...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> mn...@cam.ac.uk (
>
>>In article <4fuamf$c...@pipe2.nyc.pipeline.com>,
>> mlo...@nyc.pipeline.com (Mark Odegard) writes:
>
>>>have called a shop specializing in just produce (fruits and
>>>veggies, plus other minor stuff) a "produce store". In a
>>>supermarket, it is called the "produce section".
>
>>It would be called the "fruit and veg section" in a
>>supermarket here.
>
>>Truly called it the "Produce department". Do Americans
>>talk about departments of supermarkets?
>
>commercial with a singing butcher whose lyric went "It's Joe
>Albertson's super market, but the meat department is *mine*."
It depends on how *super* the supermarket is. For some of
the gargantuan installations that *literally* get up to
two or so acres of floor space, "department" is the proper
word. The frozen food department of these stores are larger
than whole of most New York City supermarkets, and the
produce section would easily exceed what three to five
typical NYC greengroceries take up in square footage.
--
Mark Odegard mlo...@nyc.pipeline.com
Earle D. Jones
Long) wrote:
> In article <4fu0u1$8...@cloner4.netcom.com>,
> Bob Cunningham <exw...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >tr...@lunemere.com (Truly Donovan) wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >>
===========clip here==============
> Seattle used to have a GREAT farmer's market, where you could buy
> fantastic produce.....
===========
Don't you mean farmers' market? Or was it a market where one single
farmer sold his goods?
earle
Matthew Rabuzzi
In the grocery store, it's the produce section.
As a separate store, it'll be called a fruit stand, a produce store,
a fruit-and-vegetable place. The people who run the place have
no special soubriquet.
In Britain, are 'costermonger' and 'fruiterer' still used?
............................................................
"Spear change, bwana?" asked the pun handler
Matthew Rabuzzi
Bernard Morey
>> The few independent greengrocer operations that
>>remain are generally called "produce stands" or at least that's what we called
>>them in NYC 22 years ago.
> We talk about produce stands in Southern California when we are
>speaking carefully, but in casual conversation we are more likely to
>say "corn stand". This is true even when the establishment offers a
>wide variety of produce besides corn.
I haven't heard 'greengrocer' used in Australia since the '50s. If we
want grapes, potatoes, salad mix, &c, we go to the 'fruit shop'.
These are generally owned by immigrant Italians who live in palatial
houses but seem to have little taxable income.
--
___________________
Bernie Morey
Melbourne
bmo...@melbourne.dialix.oz.au
Markus Laker
> In Britain, are 'costermonger' and 'fruiterer' still used?
'Fruiterer' is still common. I didn't know what a costermonger was until it
looked it up. I don't remember ever seeing anybody selling fruit in the
street from a barrow, though people often sell fruit and veg from stalls,
usually in markets.
Markus.
Lee Rudolph
>dav...@brookter.demon.co.uk wrote:
>> >and purple eggplant?
>> The most common name for this is, I think, aubergine.
>Also referred to by Brits as "brinjals" or somesuch I thought ?
"Brinjal" is Urdu (I think; it's the word A. Nisa Bhatti uses in
"Modern Muslim Cooking of Indo-Pakistan", whereas my various
Indo-[non-Pakistan] cookbooks use other words--"weng" and "baigan").
I don't know for sure, but I would guess that, if "brinjal" has
nowadays come to be a British English word (and why not?), then
it and "aubergine" are a wonderful example of cognate synonyms
with wildly different paths to the present: for though the
originally French "aubergine" has the appearance of being related
to the French "auberge" (inn; from a Teutonic root), in fact
French took the word (in the XVIII century) from Catalan
"alberginia", which came in turn (much earlier) from the
Arabic "al-badindjan", itself borrowed from Persian
"badin-gan", ultimately from Sanskrit "vatin-ganah".
I really want to believe that "brinjal", "weng", and
"baigan" all spring from "vatin-ganah", too.
Oh, by the way, "vatin-ganah" supposedly means "vegetable
that acts against wind".
Sources: Picoche, Dict. Etymologique du francais; Grigson,
Jane Grigson's Vegetable Book.
Lee Rudolph, unwilling to let baigans be baigans
Michael B. Quinion
> In Britain, are 'costermonger' and 'fruiterer' still used?
Though the word 'fruiterer' still occurs, it is an old-fashioned term
restricted to formal statements, say on letterheads: 'greengrocer and
fruiterer'. Nobody would actually say "I'm just popping down to the
fruiterer for some oranges".
As to 'costermonger', I wouldn't use it, even if I were to see someone
selling fruit, vegetables or fish from a barrow in the street (which
round here never happens). It sounds very old-fashioned, and for me has
strong associations with London. Perhaps someone from the metropolis
can say if it is still used there?
Clifton T. Sharp
>:children in the USA exhorted -- as British ones once were -- to 'eat
>:your greens'? And are Americans familiar with 'greens', usually as
> ^^^^^^
>Nope. We say, "Eat your vegetables."
Uh-oh. I sense another "Yankees vs. Southerners" thread coming along
any second now... :-)
--
Cliff Sharp There are days when no matter which
WA9PDM way you spit, it's upwind.
cli...@indep1.chi.il.us --The First Law of Reality
Larry Israel
fruits and vegetables was known as a "fruit store".
John Long
If even one, today. It was a fisherman's market too.
Actually, the thought process that lead me to use the singular
posesive was the one-to-one relationship between the various merchants
and their suppliers. Rather than a collectivezed reselling that you
have at a supermarket, it was like you were buying from individuals
who bought from individuals.
It seemed like the right thing to do at the time, anyway.
Gavin J Dormand
>In article <31231192...@news.demon.co.uk>,
>dav...@brookter.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
>> exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
>>
>
>> Although the bigger chains are starting to offer much more variety, so
>> that 'squash' in the sense of
>> 'some kind of vegetably thing a bit like a marrow but I don't
>> really know what it is'
>
>"Squash" in Merkin-land can cover all manner of sub-types - ranging
>in size from overgrown cucumber to smaller things which I believe
>the Brits refer to as "courgettes".
>
>>
>>
>> The most common name for this is, I think, aubergine.
>>
>
>Also referred to by Brits as "brinjals" or somesuch I thought ?
>
>American term for a "swede" is?
Rutabaga or something like that, although I'm from North East England and
wouldn't say "swede"; rather a "turnip".
M. Murray
: dav...@brookter.demon.co.uk wrote:
: > exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
: >
: > Although the bigger chains are starting to offer much more variety, so
: > that 'squash' in the sense of
: > 'some kind of vegetably thing a bit like a marrow but I don't
: > really know what it is'
: "Squash" in Merkin-land can cover all manner of sub-types - ranging
: in size from overgrown cucumber to smaller things which I believe
: the Brits refer to as "courgettes".
: >
: > >and purple eggplant?
: >
: > The most common name for this is, I think, aubergine.
: >
Aubergine is now widespread in Britain, where we usually only get purple
ones, so just say "aubergine".
: Also referred to by Brits as "brinjals" or somesuch I thought ?
No. Brinjal is an Indian word (Hindi?) for okra or ladies finger,
smallish green vegetables.
: Translating in the opposite direction - does anybody know what the
: American term for a "swede" is?
--
Martin Murray :: School of Chemistry, Bristol University, BS8 1TS, England
KJBlake
(Jitze Couperus) writes:
>Translating in the opposite direction - does anybody know what the
>American term for a "swede" is?
"Rutabaga," I believe.
Richard Kaulfuss
: : Also referred to by Brits as "brinjals" or somesuch I thought ?
: No. Brinjal is an Indian word (Hindi?) for okra or ladies finger,
: smallish green vegetables.
No. That's "tinda". Brinjal is definitely aubergine - I've got a jar of
pickle lying around somewhere. However, we don't encounter the word much
outside the realm of Indian cuisine.
Dick
John S.Robinson
>Jitze Couperus (coup...@cdc.com) wrote:
>: dav...@brookter.demon.co.uk wrote:
>: > exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
>: > >and purple eggplant?
>: >
>: > The most common name for this is, I think, aubergine.
>: >
>Aubergine is now widespread in Britain, where we usually only get purple
>ones, so just say "aubergine".
> : Also referred to by Brits as "brinjals" or somesuch I thought ?
Yes, at least on Indian restaurant menus.
>No. Brinjal is an Indian word (Hindi?) for okra or ladies finger,
>smallish green vegetables.
No, the Indian restaurant term for okra is "bhindi".
Incidentally, according to an article I read recently the vast
majority of "Indian" restaurants are run by Bangladeshis.
John
Just returned from eating a chicken vindaloo.
John Wexler
co...@zeus.bris.ac.uk (M. Murray) writes:
|> Aubergine is now widespread in Britain, where we usually only get purple
|> ones, so just say "aubergine".
|>
|> : Also referred to by Brits as "brinjals" or somesuch I thought ?
|>
|> smallish green vegetables.
Those are bhindi. Aubergines really are brinjals.
JW
Edmund Grimley-Evans
|> windows of his shop with a large brush and some white paint - potatoes
|> and potted chrysanthemums are among the items which make him infamous
|> - he blithely paints...
|>
|> POT'S and POT MUM'S
|>
|> for the amusement of passing AUEers.
Near where we used to live there was one who sold SIGERET'S,
I think it was.
Earle D. Jones
Knepp) wrote:
> Truly Donovan (tr...@lunemere.com) wrote:
> : In article <287481...@quinion.demon.co.uk> "Michael B. Quinion"
<mic...@quinion.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> That also includes the leaves of mustard, beets, and turnips, and a
> few other plants like "poke." People who won't eat spinach ('cause
> of the taste, not 'cause of the grit) usually won't touch greens. It
> is, however, pecularly southern to take this relatively benign vegetation
> and cook it in enough grease to choke a hog.
====== Clip some of that nasty yankee talk rat here! ==========
====================
Hey!
Y'all watch yo mouth--talkin' about greens!
When I was growing up in Birmingham, Alabama in the 30's and 40's, one of
our main staples was some variety of what we referred to as *greens*.
Today, when I eat spinach (bland, one-dimensional, Popeye stuff), I think
back to my mother's dinners (served in the middle of the day--you know:
breakfast, dinner, and supper).
We almost always had some kind of greens. The staple product in my family
was a mixture of turnip greens and collard greens (we said collards).
There might also be some spinach and other things therein, and if we were
lucky, a bit of mustard greens, which added a lovely piquancy (we didn's
say that then) that I still remember.
And *poke*, more commonly called *poke salad*, grew wild along fences. We
never cooked poke. Poke was served, right out of the icebox--cold, as a
salad along with some lettuce. More frequently though, we had *slaw*
(now, for some reason, called coleslaw), which was finely sliced cabbage
with enough mayonnaise to get it down.
And when we finished our greens, we drank the *pot likker*--the broth left
in the pot after cooking the greens.
It is a proven scientific fact that pot likker is the healthiest drink
known to medical doctors the world over.
Sure, we threw in a little of what you would call *fatback* (we called it
*sow belly*). If Aunt Blanche was eating with us, we called it *side
meat*. Aunt Blanche was a little uppity (she had a car--a '39 Chevrolet)
and looked down on the poor folks. But she came over for dinner pretty
often!
And together with the greens, we had black-eyed peas (shelled by hand) and
about once a week, some fried chicken. And of course, corn bread. The
corn bread could be cooked in a pan like a rectangular cake pan, but
formed into *pones* and cooked in a skillet--the taste was much better.
Some days we had hominy. Fried hominy from the can, with a little
crumbled and fried sausage mushed up in it--now that's good eatin'!
My favorite dessert was crumbled corn bread with molasses.
I'm sure you're still interested.
For breakfast, my father would get up early and get some sausage going.
This sausage was made by Bob Sykes, who lived down the street. He killed
his hogs in November and sold us bulk sausage for around 10 cents a
pound. I did not see a link sausage until I was 20 and in the Army. I saw
a pizza for the first time as a student at Georgia Tech, when I was 22.
After the sausage was cooked, he (my father, not Bob Sykes) would slice
some sweet potatoes (not yams) into about 1/4 inch thick pieces. Then he
would sprinkle some brown sugar on the potato slices and fry them in the
sausage grease. Finally, he would fry eggs for the family. The whole
thing was served hot off the stove, with grits on the side, to all of us.
Cholesterol had not been discovered.
Actually, pot likker is known to cancel out cholesterol.
Now aren't you glad you read alt.usage.english? It's the cultural hotspot
of the Internet, don't y'all agree?
Bob Cunningham
[...]
>Those are bhindi. Aubergines really are brinjals.
Surprising oddity concerning "aubergine": There is a word
"auberge", an inn, that apparently is completely unrelated
etymologically to "aubergine" (NSOED/93).
---
BC | "Short words are best and the old words
LA | when short are best of all."
| -- Winston Churchill
Jitze Couperus
wrote:
>
> As to 'costermonger', I wouldn't use it, even if I were to see someone
> selling fruit, vegetables or fish from a barrow in the street (which
> round here never happens). It sounds very old-fashioned, and for me has
> strong associations with London. Perhaps someone from the metropolis
> can say if it is still used there?
>
If D'Oyle Carte (I _tried_ to look up how to spell it, but failed) were
still around, it would still be in use there. In one of the Gilbert & Sullivan
works reference is made:
...When the costermonger's not a-jumping on his mother (on his mother)
Tum te tum te tum dum dum take one consideration with another
A policeman's lot
is not
a happy one
Can anybody shed any light as to why costermongers were
supposed to habitually be jumping on their Mums? Strange behaviour indeed.
David Casseres
(Gareth Williams) wrote:
> ax82...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu (Anthony John Xenos) wrote:
>
> +We keep hearing references to the Greengrocer's apostrophe--less
> educated
> ...... who is the
> +Green Grocer?
> +
> In the UK, the greengocer advertises his wares on the plateglass
> windows of his shop with a large brush and some white paint - potatoes
> and potted chrysanthemums are among the items which make him infamous
> - he blithely paints...
>
> POT'S and POT MUM'S
>
> for the amusement of passing AUEers.
In the U.S. he's called a "produce manager" and he (or his executive aide)
makes cardboard placards that say things like
"FRESH" TOMATOE'S!!
and
"GREEN" APPLE'S FOR "PIE"
--
David Casseres
Exclaimer: Hey!
David Casseres
> Jitze Couperus (coup...@cdc.com) wrote:
> : dav...@brookter.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> : > exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
> : >
>
> : > ..."Squash" in Merkin-land can cover all manner of sub-types - ranging
> : in size from overgrown cucumber to smaller things which I believe
> : the Brits refer to as "courgettes".
No, a cucumber is never called a squash, and the word "squash" is applied
only to one particular family, not to "all manner of sub-types." The
family just happens to have many varieties. But back to Mr. Murray:
> : Translating in the opposite direction - does anybody know what the
> : American term for a "swede" is?
It's a variety of turnip -- I think it's the one we call a rutabaga.
Esther Vail
JC> Translating in the opposite direction - does anybody know what
JC> the American term for a "swede" is?
Rutabaga, and the supermarket checkout person never can recognize
it, since only very old-fashioned cooks (such as I am) seem to use
it now. A small amount of it, peeled and diced, adds marvelous
flavor to many stews and soups, and it's grand steamed and mashed.
Esther H. Vail, Rochester NY USA
(est...@rochgte.fidonet.org)
Peter Moylan
you might like this variant.
Australia has plenty of greengrocers, but most of the supermarkets
also sell fruit and vegetables. And that section of a
supermarket is invariably called "Fresh produce".
I've often been tempted to point out that some of the goods
have been misclassified, and should be moved to the
"Stale produce" section.
--
Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
ftp://ee.newcastle.edu.au/pub/www/Moylan.html
OS/2 freeware list at ftp://ee.newcastle.edu.au/pub/Moylan/os2/os2info.html
Michael B. Quinion
> Can anybody shed any light as to why costermongers were
> supposed to habitually be jumping on their Mums? Strange behaviour
> indeed.
You will find that the lines are actually:
When the coster's finished jumping on his mother--
He loves to lie a-basking in the sun.
'coster' being a common abbreviation for 'costermonger'.
Costermongers had a proverbial reputation for being rough, tough and
mean. See also references in P.G. Wodehouse for a continuation of that
conventional wisdom. Costermongering, according to Mayhew, was a low
occupation, often taken up by destitute people or immigrants.
I asked earlier whether the word was still used in London. I omitted to
say that the term "barrow boy" is probably the better-known expression,
though even that seems strangely old-fashioned to my ears. That phrase
has its own implications of seedy venality.
an...@treebranch.com
Jitze Couperus wrote:
> Translating in the opposite direction - does anybody know what the
> American term for a "swede" is?
If that's like a turnip except yellow and more flavorful, it's a rutabaga.
--Anom
Truly Donovan
>Jitze Couperus wrote:
More flavorful, or more god-awful, depending on your point of view.
Truly Donovan, who once sent a plate back to the kitchen to have the vegetable
du jour removed because she can't even tolerate the stuff on her plate
Anne Marsden
co...@zeus.bris.ac.uk (M. Murray) writes:
> No. Brinjal is an Indian word (Hindi?) for okra or ladies finger,
> smallish green vegetables.
>
>
Eeewww! No, okra is 'Bhindi' as in 'bhindi bhaji'. I hate bhindi. My
iguanas love it, though they have a tough time eating slimy things due
to their lack of teeth. (Cue trying to mash up bananas small enough for
a baby to eat thread.)
Incidentally, I left Britain before the current wave of 'Balti Houses'.
What is a Balti House?
Anne Marsden.
David Bertenshaw
>Incidentally, I left Britain before the current wave of 'Balti Houses'.
>What is a Balti House?
They seem to be the same Indian restaurants as before, but they now
emphasise the fact that they sell Balti. Balti seems to be (I eat it,
I don't cook it!) curried meat, vegetables etc served in a metal
wok-like container on the table with naan bread. It is very good when
done properly.
It does seem to be a recent introduction to Britain - certainly to
Cheshire.
David.
-----------------------------------------------------
David Bertenshaw E-Mail dav...@brookter.demon.co.uk
-----------------------------------------------------
Geoff Butler
dav...@brookter.demon.co.uk "David Bertenshaw" writes:
> hell...@voxel.com (Anne Marsden) wrote:
>
> >Incidentally, I left Britain before the current wave of 'Balti Houses'.
> >What is a Balti House?
>
> They seem to be the same Indian restaurants as before, but they now
> emphasise the fact that they sell Balti. Balti seems to be (I eat it,
> I don't cook it!) curried meat, vegetables etc served in a metal
> wok-like container on the table with naan bread. It is very good when
> done properly.
>
> It does seem to be a recent introduction to Britain - certainly to
> Cheshire.
It was allegedly invented in Britain, in the Midlands; there is no
equivalent in the subcontinent. More allegedly still, one translation
of 'Balti' is 'bucket'.
Geoff Butler
s.meric
Make that two of us, Truly! "Properly cooked" is the operative word.
Must be steamed quickly so they don't turn to mush. Dress with butter
and grated nutmeg.
Yum!
Polar
Peter Wright
jl...@primenet.com "John Long" writes:
> >
> > > Seattle used to have a GREAT farmer's market, where you could buy
> > > fantastic produce.....
> >
> > ===========
> > Don't you mean farmers' market? Or was it a market where one single
> > farmer sold his goods?
> >
> If even one, today. It was a fisherman's market too.
>
You're not referring to Pike Place Market, are you? Surely that has
not turned into a mainly souvenir area?
I remember one or two farmers' markets in Seattle, that were quite
good value and good quality.
Here in Britain we have 'farm shops' scattered on some main roads in
country areas, and within shouting distance of each other in the
orchard country. They used to be excellent value; now they seem to
be more expensive than town greengrocers, and 99% of their produce
is clearly not locally grown.
--
------------ ----------------------------------------
Peter Wright
Shropshire
Matthew Rabuzzi
Now that we've gotten these translation issues fairly well settled,
how about melons? I believe that what's called a
cantaloupe in the US is really a muskmelon, aka
netted/reticulate/nutmeg melon -- it's got a dry pebbled rind.
What are (properly) called cantaloupes (and are so called elsewhere?)
are smoothly ribbed, or roughly warty, on the outside.
I don't know if these are sold in the US.
The above two categories have orange, red, salmon, green, flesh;
the third type of _Cucumis melo_ is the white-fleshed winter melon,
like honeydew, casaba, canary, and Christmas melons.
(Watermelons are either _Cucumis citrullus_/same genus as cucumber & melons,
_Cucurbita citrullus_/same genus as squashes, or _Citrullus vulgaris,
depending on who's classifying.)
So -- how do other people interpret the word "cantaloupe"?
............................................................
Run the gantlet, gallop the gantlope, canter the cantaloupe
Matthew Rabuzzi
Ash Nallawalla
>In article <312adc51...@news.demon.co.uk>
> dav...@brookter.demon.co.uk "David Bertenshaw" writes:
>> hell...@voxel.com (Anne Marsden) wrote:
>>
>> >Incidentally, I left Britain before the current wave of 'Balti Houses'.
>> >What is a Balti House?
>>
>> They seem to be the same Indian restaurants as before, but they now
>> emphasise the fact that they sell Balti.
>It was allegedly invented in Britain, in the Midlands; there is no
>equivalent in the subcontinent. More allegedly still, one translation
>of 'Balti' is 'bucket'.
Correct, but with "Indian" words you have to ask _which_ Indian
language is being used. Anne mentioned "bhindi" (ladies fingers)
which is the Hindi word, but on the West Coast of India it is known
as bhinda (Gujarati) or bhendi (Marathi). I had never heard of
"balti cooking" when I lived in India. Probably a good marketing
job by someone in Blighty, who was inspired by various cuisines
that feature a hot sizzling pan brought to the table for effect.
--
Managing Editor, PC Update; Vice-President, Melb PC
Director, Association of Personal Computer User Groups
mailto:a...@melbpc.org.au
Joseph C Fineman
apostrophe in the plural of an ordinary noun is a fatuous
vulgarism...". A number of examples are given, not from greengrocers
but from rather pretentious establishments. "A notice...KEEP OUT,
POLICE DOG'S WORKING cannot escape suspicion of using an apostrophe in
the same way."
%^)
--
Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
239 Clinton Road (617) 731-9190
Brookline, MA 02146
an...@treebranch.com
David Casseres wrote:
> > Jitze Couperus (coup...@cdc.com) wrote:
> > : dav...@brookter.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > : > ..."Squash" in Merkin-land can cover all manner of sub-types -
> ranging
> > : in size from overgrown cucumber to smaller things which I
> believe
> > : the Brits refer to as "courgettes".
>
> No, a cucumber is never called a squash, and the word "squash" is
> applied
> only to one particular family, not to "all manner of sub-types."
David was probably referring to a zucchini, an elongated green squash that can
(especially the smaller ones) sometimes be mistaken for a cucumber (description
provided in case it's called something else where you come from). Since I don't
like them, of course I have an even harder time telling them apart when they're
sliced, cooked, and mixed into some dish I'm eating....
--Anom
Roy Lakin
Joseph C Fineman <j...@world.std.com> wrote:
>See Fowler, _MEU_ 2, s.v. possessive puzzles 7. "To insert an
>apostrophe in the plural of an ordinary noun is a fatuous
>vulgarism...". A number of examples are given, not from greengrocers
>but from rather pretentious establishments. "A notice...KEEP OUT,
>POLICE DOG'S WORKING cannot escape suspicion of using an apostrophe in
>the same way."
It _could_ be correct, of course.
Assume there's only one dog.
Assume it's not normally to be found working, and the writer doesn't want
it disturbed.
Assume the writer is being informal.
Until I see the quote in its entirety (yes I _do_ have an old copy somewhere)
I can only assume Fowler has clanged again.
:-)
Roy
Rex Knepp
: (Watermelons are either _Cucumis citrullus_/same genus as cucumber & melons,
: _Cucurbita citrullus_/same genus as squashes, or _Citrullus vulgaris,
: depending on who's classifying.)
: So -- how do other people interpret the word "cantaloupe"?
To me, a cantaloupe is a smallish (less than 8 inches [20 cm] in diameter)
spheroidal fruit with a reticulate skin. When ripe, the skin is golden-
brown with a raised lighter brown "net." The flesh is pale orange in color,
and the seeds are likewise pale orange. They are delicious!
rex (what I wouldn't do for a Rocky Ford Cantaloupe right now!)
============================================================================
kn...@hou.moc.com
Rex Knepp - Marathon Oil Company - Tyler, TX
Marathon has no opinions: these are, therefore, mine.
=============================================================================
Rex Knepp
: David was probably referring to a zucchini, an elongated green squash that can
: (especially the smaller ones) sometimes be mistaken for a cucumber (description
: provided in case it's called something else where you come from). Since I don't
: like them, of course I have an even harder time telling them apart when they're
: sliced, cooked, and mixed into some dish I'm eating....
At the grocery yesterday, I saw "cucumbers," "zucchini," and "English
cucmbers." These last were much longer than the other cucumbers, yet
of approximately the same girth. I have *no* idea what they might be...
-30-
rex
Joseph C Fineman
>>"A notice...KEEP OUT,
>>POLICE DOG'S WORKING cannot escape suspicion of using an apostrophe in
>>the same way."
>It _could_ be correct, of course.
Indeed it could! (Well, _might_.) Hence, I believe, Mr Gowers's sly
diction ("cannot escape suspicion").
>Until I see the quote in its entirety (yes I _do_ have an old copy somewhere)
>I can only assume Fowler has clanged again.
I don't have the original MEU at hand, but I believe this is a recent
quotation & not Fowler's responsibility.
Truly Donovan
>rex (what I wouldn't do for a Rocky Ford Cantaloupe right now!)
Gotta wait til August and then eat as many as you can in the 2.5 weeks before
they are all gone again. In case anyone wonders why prosciutto sales in
Colorado spike in August, this is it.
Truly Donovan
Colin Fine
>
> On (16 Feb 96) Jitze Couperus wrote to All...
>
> JC> Translating in the opposite direction - does anybody know what
> JC> the American term for a "swede" is?
>
> Rutabaga, and the supermarket checkout person never can recognize
> it, since only very old-fashioned cooks (such as I am) seem to use
> it now. A small amount of it, peeled and diced, adds marvelous
> flavor to many stews and soups, and it's grand steamed and mashed.
>
didn't know what sort.
How interesting that the Americans have adopted a Swedish word, while we
just call it swede.
Any parallel examples?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
|Colin Fine 33 Pemberton Drive, Bradford BD7 1RA 01274 733680 |
| co...@kindness.demon.co.uk |
|"There are no extraordinary people: There are only ordinary people |
|doing extraordinary things with what they have been given" -K.B.Brown|
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ruth Bygrave
>At the grocery yesterday, I saw "cucumbers," "zucchini," and "English
>cucmbers." These last were much longer than the other cucumbers, yet
>of approximately the same girth. I have *no* idea what they might be...
The cucumbers I have seen must have been English... this post leaves
me wondering what American cucumbers look like.
Regards, \/\/oof
Bernard Morey
>To me, a cantaloupe is a smallish (less than 8 inches [20 cm] in diameter)
>spheroidal fruit with a reticulate skin. When ripe, the skin is golden-
>brown with a raised lighter brown "net." The flesh is pale orange in color,
>and the seeds are likewise pale orange. They are delicious!
Australia = rockmelon, except in ponsy fruit shops.
--
___________________
Bernie Morey
Melbourne
bmo...@melbourne.dialix.oz.au
John Wexler
knowledgeable Americans, and then cooked it for them, and we ate it
(with haggis), and they affirmed that it was a rutabaga. That ought to
clear the whole thing up - except that this is Scotland, where the name
for the thing is "turnip".
JW
P.S. Botanists over here seem to recognise "rutabaga" as the scientific
name for the thing.
P.P.S. Where did that name come from, anyway?
Lee Rudolph
> US cucumbers (Canadian, too, I imagine?) are shorter and rounder
>than what we call English cucumbers, but the key difference is that the
>English cucumbers sold in US markets is seedless and thus more elegant
>and expensive.
Not *always* more "elegant", insofar as they're sometimes marketed as
"burpless cukes".
Lee Rudolph, for obvious reasons a longtime fan of W. Atlee Burpee
Esther Vail
RB> From: rbyg...@anglianet.co.uk (Ruth Bygrave)
RB> Organization: AngliaNet Ltd
RB> Message-ID: <3133a2a5...@newnews.anglianet.co.uk>
RB>
RB> kn...@news.neosoft.com (Rex Knepp) wrote:
RB>
RB> >At the grocery yesterday, I saw "cucumbers," "zucchini," and "English
RB> >cucmbers." These last were much longer than the other cucumbers, yet
RB> >of approximately the same girth. I have *no* idea what they might
RB> be...
RB>
RB> The cucumbers I have seen must have been English... this post leaves
RB> me wondering what American cucumbers look like.
RB>
US cucumbers (Canadian, too, I imagine?) are shorter and rounder
than what we call English cucumbers, but the key difference is that the
English cucumbers sold in US markets is seedless and thus more elegant
and expensive.
Esther H. Vail, Rochester NY USA
(est...@rochgte.fidonet.org)
Mark Odegard
>Esthe...@p15.f333.n2613.z1.fidonet.org (Esther Vail) writes:
>
>>US cucumbers (Canadian, too, I imagine?) are shorter and
>>rounder than what we call English cucumbers, but the key
>>difference is that the English cucumbers sold in US markets
>is seedless and thus more elegant and expensive.
>
>marketed as "burpless cukes".
>
>Lee Rudolph, for obvious reasons a longtime fan of
>W. Atlee Burpee
Actually, the burpless cukes (last I read of them) are
seedless. You cannot propagate them yourself. You have to
buy seeds every growing season, a commercial botanist's dream
plant.
I just posted on borborygmus. Now, on eructation.
My goodness. I'm waiting to see if something on the
divine afflatus comes up on my newsreader; my night
will be complete.
Actually, this is an appropriate ending to this thread
that began with the greengrocer's apostrophe.
--
Mark Odegard mlo...@nyc.pipeline.com
KJBlake
writes:
>P.S. Botanists over here seem to recognise "rutabaga" as the scientific
>name for the thing.
No, the scientific name is *Brassica napobrasica.*
>P.P.S. Where did that name come from, anyway?
Rutabaga? From the Swedish.
Mark Baker
coup...@cdc.com (Jitze Couperus) writes:
>> Australia = rockmelon, except in ponsy fruit shops.
>> -- ^^^^^
>
>Should I add this to my collection of Strine or does it have a wider
>provenance?
It's used in the UK, although I think it came from Australia. Imported
by "Neighbours" viewers perhaps? I always thought it was spelt poncy
though.
>I can guess at the meaning (upscale snooty?) or does it also carry overtones
>as to the referent's sexual predilection (swishy?).
Not as far as I know.
Shakib Otaqui
co...@kindness.demon.co.uk "Colin Fine" wrote:
CF> In article: <82526259...@rochgte.fidonet.org>
CF> Esthe...@p15.f333.n2613.z1.fidonet.org (Esther Vail) writes:
CF> >
CF> > On (16 Feb 96) Jitze Couperus wrote to All...
CF> >
CF> > JC> Translating in the opposite direction - does anybody know what
CF> > JC> the American term for a "swede" is?
CF> >
CF> > Rutabaga, and the supermarket checkout person never can recognize
CF> > it, since only very old-fashioned cooks (such as I am) seem to use
CF> > it now. A small amount of it, peeled and diced, adds marvelous
CF> > flavor to many stews and soups, and it's grand steamed and mashed.
CF> >
CF> Thanks, I knew that a rutabaga was some sort of root vegetable, but I
CF> didn't know what sort.
CF>
CF> How interesting that the Americans have adopted a Swedish word, while we
CF> just call it swede.
CF>
CF> Any parallel examples?
Not exactly parallel, but I find the history of "artichoke"
fascinating. It originally came into English from the Arabic
"kharshouf" via the Italian "articiocco". So far, so ordinary.
But the plant is now commonly known in some variants of colloquial
Arabic as "arda shokeh", which translates very appropriately as
"thorn of the ground". It's a classic example of folk etymology,
with the added spice of the word having gone full circle.
--
Words have finished flirting. Now they are making love.
*********************************************************************
Shakib Otaqui Al-Quds Consult
Mark Odegard
>Another way to tell the difference: turnips are merely
>awful, while rutabagas are vile, contemptible, and evil.
I usta not like turnips. Now I do. They are sweet, with
an underlying pungence. I suspect Truly has not had them
in a *long* time. It is important that they be crisp. There
is nothing sadder than a spongey turnip.
As for rutabagas, well. Once in a year, as an accent to
a hearty beefy meal. Or with a haggis, if one is going to
be ethnic.
--
Mark Odegard mlo...@nyc.pipeline.com
Johan Braennlund
: In our last episode <4h4q91$l...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>,
: Broadcast on alt.usage.english
: The lovely and talented John Wexler wrote:
: >I hereby certify that, last week, I exhibited a whole swede to three
: >knowledgeable Americans, and then cooked it for them, and we ate it
You did WHAT? :-)
: >P.S. Botanists over here seem to recognise "rutabaga" as the scientific
: >name for the thing.
: Well, as a last resort I looked it up. It is Swedish. It does
: mean root+bag. It is a turnip. Botanists call it Brassica
: napus napobrassica.
: Swedish dialect: rot=root + bagge=bag.
In modern Swedish, "bagge" roughly means "bug" (or "ram", as in "male
sheep", but I don't think that's relevant in this case). I *think* I've
read in some dictionary that the etymology has something to do with this.
I've never seen the word "bagge" being used to mean "bag", but I suppose
it could have been used like that in Old Swedish, or in some dialect that
I'm not familiar with.
Johan Braennlund
m94...@student.tdb.uu.se
Mark Baker
Esthe...@p15.f333.n2613.z1.fidonet.org (Esther Vail) writes:
> US cucumbers (Canadian, too, I imagine?) are shorter and rounder
>than what we call English cucumbers, but the key difference is that the
>English cucumbers sold in US markets is seedless and thus more elegant
>and expensive.
So what do you call the cucmbers sold in England, or are they not
available? (the seeds are an essential part of English cucumbers, that's
where msot of the flavour is)
chab...@vms1.bham.ac.uk
>>
>> Australia = rockmelon, except in ponsy fruit shops.
>> -- ^^^^^
>
> Should I add this to my collection of Strine or does it have a wider
> provenance?
It's spelt `poncey', and derives from `ponce' - a pimp, or an effeminate man.
It has come to mean, colloquially, fancy or haughty.
Tony Chabot
Coby (Jacob) Lubliner
Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> wrote:
>Truly Donovan, who has learned to love olives and liver (when respectfully
>cooked) but has no intention of ever developing an affinity for rutabagas,
>marzipan, and macaroni and cheese, including fettucini Alfredo (I say it is
>macaroni and cheese and I say to hell with it).
Does that imply a concomitant aversion to spelling
_fettuccine_ correctly?
Coby
Mark Odegard
>Turnips are edible when raw, both rutabagas and turnips
>are the most vile examples of "food" ever conceived of.
Hyperbole.
Chitterlings, my beloved grandmother's lamentable
lutefisk, and a few other things are truly vile; but
turnips and rutabagas?
You probably dislike parsnips, winter squash, carrots,
kale, spinach, arugala, radiccio, brussels sprouts,
broccoli and cauliflower too.
--
Mark Odegard mlo...@nyc.pipeline.com
John Wexler
dan...@access.digex.net (J. Dudley Benjafield) writes:
|> All that is fine, but how do you then distinguish
|> between turnips and rutabaga?
In Scotland, where the rutabaga thing is called "turnip", the other
thing is a "white turnip". I didn't know you cared.
JW
Roy Lakin
[...]
>available in the markets in Colorado, but no one ever tries to actually feed
>one to you.)
You've just given an example why "actually" is better placed before "tries"
than where you put it. Imagine what "to virtually feed" means.
>
>Truly Donovan, whose hostility towards rutabagas is already on record here
Roy Lakin, whose hostility towards those who split infinitives just for
the sake of it is also on record here.
:-)
Truly Donovan
I cannot speak for the individual to whom this addressed, but I can certainly
speak for at least one person who loathes rutabagas, and your assumption is
not valid. Kale ain't on the *top* of my list, but all those other things are
okay and some of them (spinach, brussels sprouts, broccoli, and cauliflower)
are practically passions.
I sense here a little bit of the current American snobbery towards people who,
raised on the Standard American Diet, don't care for anything with any trace of
bitterness. Tsk, tsk. We rutabaga-haters can be just as discriminating,
palate-wise, as anyone else.
Truly Donovan
Ian Dale
: kr...@netcom.com (Cerebus The Aardvark) wrote:
:
: >Turnips are edible when raw, both rutabagas and turnips
: >are the most vile examples of "food" ever conceived of.
:
: Hyperbole.
Indeed.
Although this thread begins to look like it belongs in alt.food,
rather than a.u.e., I can't sit idly by while the noble rutabaga is
defamed. To my taste, raw rutabaga is delicious sliced -- like a more
than usually tangy and crisp apple. And cheap, into the bargain!
Henry McGilton
*In article: <4h80c7$8...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> mn...@cam.ac.uk (Mark Baker)
*writes:
*> It's used in the UK, although I think it came from Australia. Imported
*> by "Neighbours" viewers perhaps? I always thought it was spelt poncy
*> though.
*
*Even though "Neighbours" seems to have been running for an eternity, the
*word is actually older than that. The first OED2 citation is dated
*1964. Often spelt 'poncey'. It's connected with the verb 'to ponce
*about' meaning to act in an effeminate manner.
Yes, the word is spelled ``ponce'', and the adjective is ``poncey''.
Ponce [rhymed into Johnny Ronce] was at one time used as another word
for a pimp, or for a man who ``lived off the earnings of a high-class
lady'' to paraphrase the song.
........ Henry
KJBlake
>>kale, spinach, arugala, radiccio, brussels sprouts,
>>broccoli and cauliflower too.
I like all of these except kale, but especially arugula (with a "u") and
radicchio (with the "h," please).
Lest there be anyone here who is confused by the pronunciation of
"radiccio" (wrong spelling) vs. "radicchio" (correct), since U.S. stores
so often get this wrong, note that the "ch" in Italian is pronounced "k"
(ra-DICK-io). If it were "radiccio," it would be pronounced "ra-DITCH-io."
Truly Donovan
>I *think* I've seen a daikon. Giant parsnip is a good
>description. But much much whiter.
And much much less tapered.
Truly Donovan
John Wexler
Esthe...@p15.f333.n2613.z1.fidonet.org (Esther Vail) writes:
> In the USA a turnip is that smaller white object of which one type
> has a purple top; I have the impression this critter is known as a
> "neep" (or is it "neap") in Scotland.
In Scotland, both "neep" and "turnip" generally mean the big purplish
orange-fleshed rutabaga. The smaller white-fleshed thing is also
recognised as a turnip, generally specified as a "white turnip".
This is a rare opportunity for me to disagree mildly with Rainer, who
thinks that an unqualified "turnip" is a white one. As you may guess
from our names, we are neither of us Scots, although we live here.
In article <DnyxDH.2D.0.staf...@dcs.ed.ac.uk>,
r...@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Rainer Thonnes) writes:
|> In Scotland, turnips are small and white and purple too, with white flesh.
|> Neeps are the yellow-fleshed ones traditionally consumed with haggis.
|> I've a feeling that "neep" derives etymologically from the second syllable
|> of turnip, and indeed I gather that the term "turnip" is ambiguous here,
|> and is used to describe both the little white turnip and the big yellow
|> swede.
When kids hollow out a vegetable and cut a face in it and put a candle
inside for Halloween here, they use a rutabaga and they call it a turnip
lantern. Recently the shops have taken to selling huge (probably
imported) squashes for the same purpose - not many people eat them, and
they're only sold around Halloween.
JW
Hedbanger
content than parsnips. It is good raw or cooked in a soup with a
fishstock base.
When I make oxtail stew I dice a small turnip (or dailkon) and cook
it along with beef bones from the very beginning. By the time the meat
is tender and it is time to put vegetables into the pot, the turnip
has cooked to bits but it imparts a barely perceptible flavor to the
pot, "rounding out the palate," as they say. I have two recipes, one
Chinese, with fresh ginger, one a sort of Provencal, with a splash of
red wine. The turnips go well with either.
Some people seem to have more sensitive bitterness receptors.
Radicchio and endive (and tonic water) are very bitter to my taste but
the root vegetables mentioned are not. I think there are some folks
who are able to experience the full bitterness of some foods and still
relish it. I can take the bitterer things in small doses.
---
- J.Faires
- Hedbanger - hedb...@hooked.net
---
- If you're not part of the solution
- you're part of the precipitate.
---
Steve Cornelius
mis...@scripps.edu (Mark Israel) wrote:
>In article <truly.240...@lunemere.com>, tr...@lunemere.com (Truly
Donovan) writes:
>
>> Anti-infinitive splitters will never understand a stylistic
>> infinitive split even if they were to try, which they aren't about
>> to. They ought to give it up and give the rest of us a rest.
>
> Shades of Fowler's "superfluous hair-remover" (the hair-remover
>that nobody wants)!
>
> Shades of Gowers' "ex-prime minister" (a minister who is past his
>prime)!
>
> Shades of White's "Chattanooga News-Free Press" (a press that is
>devoid of news)!
>
> Please, let's make it "anti-infinitive-splitters".
>
Where some of the above might have been better for the removal of a hyphen,
an advertisement in last Saturday's "Sydney Morning Herald" could have used a
hyphen (or two). It was promoting "Sydney Square Breast Clinic". My first
reaction was that I had seen a few in my time, but the corners on most of them
were quite nicely rounded.
Steve Cornelius
Sydney, Australia
byker...@s054.aone.net.au
Peter Hoogenboom
: In article <truly.240...@lunemere.com>, tr...@lunemere.com (Truly Donovan) writes:
: > Anti-infinitive splitters will never understand a stylistic
"Yesterday, I tried (mumble) to the store (mumble) some food so I'd be
able (mumble) dinner, but I wasn't able (mumble) to the store before it
closed, because the manager had decided (mumble) it early, and I had
(mumble) at work late."
"Why did you have to stay late?"
"I was splitting some firewood."
Peter
--
Peter Hoogenboom phoo...@wlu.edu
Department of Music, DuPont 208 hoogen...@fs.sciences.wlu.edu
Washington and Lee University phoog...@wesleyan.edu
Lexington, VA 24450 (540) 463-8697
David Blair
Nice to see your posting on a.u.e. this morning. Keep up the good work!
--
David Blair
School of English, Linguistics & Media
MACQUARIE UNIVERSITY
SYDNEY
Mark Brader
> Where some of the above might have been better for the removal of a hyphen,
> an advertisement in last Saturday's "Sydney Morning Herald" could have used
It could have been worse, though. One of Sydney's suburbs is called Manly!
--
Mark Brader "Men are animals."
m...@sq.com "What are women? Plants, birds, fish?"
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto -- Spider Robinson, "Night of Power"
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Myles Paulson
In article <1996Mar15.0...@sq.com>, Mark Brader (m...@sq.com) writes:
>Steve Cornelius (byker...@s054.aone.net.au) writes:
>> Where some of the above might have been better for the removal of a hyphen,
>> an advertisement in last Saturday's "Sydney Morning Herald" could have used
>> a hyphen (or two). It was promoting "Sydney Square Breast Clinic". ...
>
>It could have been worse, though. One of Sydney's suburbs is called Manly!
Which used to have a school "Manly Boys High". True
--
Myles Paulson <xexr...@wackydoo.dialix.oz.au>
"I told you I was sick"
Epitaph on gravestone, Rookwood Cemetaryo
Studio MJAU
"Alan J. Flavell" <fla...@mail.cern.ch> wrote:
>Presumably some kind of white radish, similar to the Bavarian "Radi"
>and what's sold in Britain as "Mooli" (presumably an Indian or
>Pakistani name for it). Am I right?
>
>best regards
>
Yes, you are. Daikon and Mooli are the same vegetable - a mild-tasting,
large, white radish. Yum!
Anna Smith
---
Studio MJAU * WWW Design
mj...@henry.demon.co.uk
KJBlake
(Studio MJAU) writes:
>>Presumably some kind of white radish, similar to the Bavarian "Radi"
>>and what's sold in Britain as "Mooli" (presumably an Indian or
>>Pakistani name for it). Am I right?
>>
>>best regards
>>
>
>Yes, you are. Daikon and Mooli are the same vegetable - a mild-tasting,
>large, white radish. Yum!
I've never heard it called "Mooli" here in the states. Is the previous
poster correct? Is it an Indian or Pakistani name? Do you know which?
I like Indian food very much, but I don't recall having ever identified
Daikon in it. How do the Indians use it?
By the way, the other name that I know for it is the Chinese one, "Lo
Baak."
Simon Hosie
I thought birds and fish were animals too..
Studio MJAU
kjb...@aol.com (KJBlake) wrote:
>In article <AD7425C8...@henry.demon.co.uk>, mj...@henry.demon.co.uk
>(Studio MJAU) writes:
>
>>>Presumably some kind of white radish, similar to the Bavarian "Radi"
>>>and what's sold in Britain as "Mooli" (presumably an Indian or
>>>Pakistani name for it). Am I right?
>>>
>>>best regards
>>>
>>
>>Yes, you are. Daikon and Mooli are the same vegetable - a mild-tasting,
>>large, white radish. Yum!
>
>I've never heard it called "Mooli" here in the states. Is the previous
>poster correct? Is it an Indian or Pakistani name? Do you know which?
The name appears in my Indian recipe book, where it is spelt muli, with a
line over the u. I can't confirm whether the same name is used in
Pakistani.
>
>I like Indian food very much, but I don't recall having ever identified
>Daikon in it. How do the Indians use it?
I've encountered it in pickles and mixed veg curries. I guess it would make
a nice pakora. My book has a recipe for Carrot and Radish Puree (Gajar muli
bharta) but I've not cooked it.
I'm more familiar with its use in Japanese cuisine. Daikon pickle (takuan)
is worth a try if you're feeling adventurous :-)
JC Hume
mn...@cam.ac.uk (Mark Baker) wrote:
>In article <couperus-010...@jc.svl.cdc.com>,
> coup...@cdc.com (Jitze Couperus) writes:
>>> Australia = rockmelon, except in ponsy fruit shops.
>>> -- ^^^^^
>>
>>Should I add this to my collection of Strine or does it have a wider
>>provenance?
>It's used in the UK, although I think it came from Australia. Imported
>by "Neighbours" viewers perhaps? I always thought it was spelt poncy
>though.
>>I can guess at the meaning (upscale snooty?) or does it also carry overtones
>>as to the referent's sexual predilection (swishy?).
>Not as far as I know.
I would have thought the word was spelled poncy. Wherever it
originated it was used a lot in the UK, in the same way as effeminate
or queer. For example, I believe Quentin Crisp may have been
described as a ponce, in his film Naked Civil Servant, but don't quote
me on that.
Julie