Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

other newsgroup dealing language topics?

277 views
Skip to first unread message

Michael Uplawski

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 4:56:10 AM3/13/23
to
Good morning.

I cannot contribute much to any discussion at this moment, but reading
alt.usage.english has become just as difficult:
My newsreader marks filtered postings but does not remove them from the
threads. With about 90% of the content being reduced to mere clutter,
this newsgroup has beaten all recoeds in a short time. This can be a
problem of my program, but I will stick to it for other reasons.

Can you recommed a different group, possibly outside the alt-hierachy
for English languge topics?

TIA.

Cheerio
--
Native German / Colloquial French

Michael Uplawski

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 5:02:11 AM3/13/23
to
Good morning.

I cannot contribute much to any discussion at this moment, but reading
alt.usage.english has become just as difficult:
My newsreader marks filtered postings but does not remove them from the
threads. With about 90% of the content being reduced to mere clutter,
this newsgroup has beaten all records in a short time. This can be a

Michael Uplawski

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 5:02:57 AM3/13/23
to
Good morning.

I cannot contribute much to any discussion at this moment, but reading
alt.usage.english has become just as difficult:
My newsreader marks filtered postings but does not remove them from the
threads. With about 90% of the content being reduced to mere clutter,
this newsgroup has beaten all records in a short time. This can be a
problem of my program, but I will stick to it for other reasons.

Can you recommed a different group, possibly outside the alt-hierachy
for English language topics?

John Dunlop

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 5:50:27 AM3/13/23
to
Michael Uplawski:
> I cannot contribute much to any discussion at this moment, but reading
> alt.usage.english has become just as difficult:
> My newsreader marks filtered postings but does not remove them from the
> threads. With about 90% of the content being reduced to mere clutter,
> this newsgroup has beaten all records in a short time. This can be a
> problem of my program, but I will stick to it for other reasons.
>
> Can you recommed a different group, possibly outside the alt-hierachy
> for English language topics?

There's alt.english.usage and uk.culture.language.english, but I don't
think either is very active, certainly a lot less than AUE.
English-language discussion would also be on-topic in sci.lang, but I
don't know how how active it is nowadays, either. If I were you, I'd try
to make reading AUE easier.

Some people use Google Groups, which might be an option for you while
you work out what's wrong with your newsreader. It seems unlikely that a
newsreader can mark filtered posts but not remove them. If you can't
figure it out, would it be an option to install another newsreader (in
addition to your current one)?

Even something as unsophisticated as Thunderbird could give you a more
pleasant reading experience. Its biggest downside, though, is that you
can't hide follow-ups to killfiled posts (AFAIK), and so you're still
left having to skip over RRs who insist on responding to trolls.

--
John

Bertel Lund Hansen

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 7:34:34 AM3/13/23
to
Den 13.03.2023 kl. 10.50 skrev John Dunlop:

> Even something as unsophisticated as Thunderbird could give you a more
> pleasant reading experience. Its biggest downside, though, is that you
> can't hide follow-ups to killfiled posts (AFAIK),

Correct, but instead of removing the post you can choose to ignore
subthreads starting with the post, and that kills it and every follow-up
but leaves the main thread undisturbed.

It works well.

--
Bertel, Denmark

John Dunlop

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 8:02:17 AM3/13/23
to
Bertel Lund Hansen:
Thanks for confirming.

I'd be reluctant to ignore subthreads in their entirety, though, because
thread drift can lead to interesting discussions.

Changing the subject line to reflect the content of the subthread would
be helpful, but not many people do that.

--
John

occam

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 8:57:56 AM3/13/23
to
On 13/03/2023 13:02, John Dunlop wrote:
> Bertel Lund Hansen:
>> Den 13.03.2023 kl. 10.50 skrev John Dunlop:
>>
>>> Even something as unsophisticated as Thunderbird


<ahem> Why do you think of TB as 'unsophisticated'?


could give you a more
>>> pleasant reading experience. Its biggest downside, though, is that you
>>> can't hide follow-ups to killfiled posts (AFAIK),
>>
>> Correct, but instead of removing the post you can choose to ignore
>> subthreads starting with the post, and that kills it and every follow-up
>> but leaves the main thread undisturbed.
>>
>> It works well.
>
> Thanks for confirming.
>
> I'd be reluctant to ignore subthreads in their entirety, though, because
> thread drift can lead to interesting discussions.

Agreed. However there is more than one way of ignoring a subthread. I
paint mine with a very faint shade of grey by 'tag'-ing the message with
'ignore'. (You can choose the colour of 'ignore' to be any shade of
grey.) All this is achieved by using my 'unsophisticated' Thunderbird.



John Dunlop

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 9:42:40 AM3/13/23
to
occam:
>>> Den 13.03.2023 kl. 10.50 skrev John Dunlop:
>>>
>>>> Even something as unsophisticated as Thunderbird
>
>
> <ahem> Why do you think of TB as 'unsophisticated'?

Because it lacks features that stand-alone newsreaders tend to have. For
example, in this group, muting quoted text prevents your space bar from
wearing out (and preserves your sanity). But you need an add-on for that
in Thunderbird. More sophisticated newsreaders (e.g., Pan) provide that
functionality out-of-the-box.

I don't think "unsophisticated" is particularly negative. I use
Thunderbird and am reasonably happy with it. But the newsreader is only
part of Thunderbird. I wouldn't expect it to be as feature-rich as a
stand-alone newsreader.

--
John

Bertel Lund Hansen

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 10:20:29 AM3/13/23
to
Den 13.03.2023 kl. 13.02 skrev John Dunlop:

> Changing the subject line to reflect the content of the subthread would
> be helpful, but not many people do that.

It would make no difference for my view.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Bertel Lund Hansen

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 10:27:44 AM3/13/23
to
Den 13.03.2023 kl. 13.57 skrev occam:

> <ahem> Why do you think of TB as 'unsophisticated'?

It has quite strange function for going back and forth in the messages
in the sequence that I read them in. It works sometimes, and other times
not. There are messages that I could not read because they had
diappeared from my window, and the back-and-forth didn't find them.

I have learnt to live with Thunderbird, but I miss Agent - the best
newsreader I have tried. I have mentioned before the unique feature with
filters that can be set to disappear after a specific period, and better
still: after a specific period with no activity.

I don't understand that other newsreaders haven't copied it.

--
Bertel, Denmark

occam

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 10:59:47 AM3/13/23
to
On 13/03/2023 15:27, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Den 13.03.2023 kl. 13.57 skrev occam:
>
>> <ahem> Why do you think of TB as 'unsophisticated'?
>
> It has quite strange function for going back and forth in the messages
> in the sequence that I read them in.

Up arrow and down arrow work fine for me. What sequence do you read them?

It works sometimes, and other times
> not. There are messages that I could not read because they had
> diappeared from my window, and the back-and-forth didn't find them.

When this happens to me, it is usually because I have done something
silly, like inadvertently deleted the specific message. (Easily done.)

>
> I have learnt to live with Thunderbird, but I miss Agent - the best
> newsreader I have tried. I have mentioned before the unique feature with
> filters that can be set to disappear after a specific period, and better
> still: after a specific period with no activity.
>
> I don't understand that other newsreaders haven't copied it.
>

All of my old messages ('old' as defined by me) disappear automatically.
As for filter rules, I'd like to be in control when they are 'on' and
when 'off'. Nothing more annoying than seeing an old banished poster
reappearing in my mailbox, because some 'autopilot' scheme decided to
pardon him/her for past abuses. (Now, what was that clever rule I had
devised for him, which automatically got deleted?)

occam

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 11:16:11 AM3/13/23
to
On 13/03/2023 14:42, John Dunlop wrote:
> occam:
>>>> Den 13.03.2023 kl. 10.50 skrev John Dunlop:
>>>>
>>>>> Even something as unsophisticated as Thunderbird
>>
>>
>> <ahem> Why do you think of TB as 'unsophisticated'?
>
> Because it lacks features that stand-alone newsreaders tend to have. For
> example, in this group, muting quoted text prevents your space bar from
> wearing out (and preserves your sanity). But you need an add-on for that
> in Thunderbird. More sophisticated newsreaders (e.g., Pan) provide that
> functionality out-of-the-box.

On the other hand, if you only use 20% of those 'out-of-the-box'
features (an overestimate), then - in my book - the remaining 80% of
features are called 'bloat'.

The out-of-the-box feature of TB I appreciate most is the ability to
read my emails in addition to newsgroups. The Swiss Army knife
principle to reading mail.

>
> I don't think "unsophisticated" is particularly negative.

Well, actually it is.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/unsophisticated

'naive' 'lacking in worldly wisdom or informed judgment' and 'crude' are
quite negative and damning descriptions of most things.




Paul Carmichael

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 11:19:20 AM3/13/23
to
El Mon, 13 Mar 2023 13:42:34 +0000, John Dunlop escribió:

> Because it lacks features that stand-alone newsreaders tend to have. For
> example, in this group, muting quoted text prevents your space bar from
> wearing out (and preserves your sanity). But you need an add-on for that
> in Thunderbird. More sophisticated newsreaders (e.g., Pan) provide that
> functionality out-of-the-box.

Pretty sure I've never heard Pan referred to before as sophisticated. I
use it because TB kept losing the plot (maybe a linux issue).

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

Bertel Lund Hansen

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 11:22:39 AM3/13/23
to
Den 13.03.2023 kl. 16.19 skrev Paul Carmichael:

> Pretty sure I've never heard Pan referred to before as sophisticated. I
> use it because TB kept losing the plot (maybe a linux issue).

Losing the plot? What do you mean?

My TB on Linux Mint doesn't lose anything.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Bertel Lund Hansen

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 11:29:23 AM3/13/23
to
Den 13.03.2023 kl. 15.59 skrev occam:

>> It has quite strange function for going back and forth in the messages
>> in the sequence that I read them in.

> Up arrow and down arrow work fine for me. What sequence do you read them?

I read new messages. That means that I may read one from one thread, and
them one from another thread. Going up doesn't display the previous one.
I have to use AltGr+'[', and sometimes it just has no effect.

> It works sometimes, and other times
>> not. There are messages that I could not read because they had
>> diappeared from my window, and the back-and-forth didn't find them.
>
> When this happens to me, it is usually because I have done something
> silly, like inadvertently deleted the specific message. (Easily done.)

I have never deleted a message by accident.

> All of my old messages ('old' as defined by me) disappear automatically.

Of course.

> As for filter rules, I'd like to be in control when they are 'on' and
> when 'off'. Nothing more annoying than seeing an old banished poster
> reappearing in my mailbox, because some 'autopilot' scheme decided to
> pardon him/her for past abuses. (Now, what was that clever rule I had
> devised for him, which automatically got deleted?)

You can set up a rule such that the filter deleting posts from NN
disappeares when they haven't been active for x days. You can set 365
days if you like.

My filters are filled with rules that may or may not be neccessary.

--
Bertel, Denmark

John Dunlop

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 11:29:29 AM3/13/23
to
occam:
> On 13/03/2023 14:42, John Dunlop wrote:

(describing Thunderbird)

>> I don't think "unsophisticated" is particularly negative.
>
> Well, actually it is.

Not in this context. It means "not complicated or highly developed; basic":

https://www.google.com/search?q=define+unsophisticated

The quotation given is "unsophisticated computer software". There is
nothing necessarily negative about that.

--
John

occam

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 11:35:27 AM3/13/23
to
...other than the messages that go a-missing? (You need a consistent
story, Bertel ;-)

Perhaps the 'back-and-forth issue with your TB is also Linux related.
Have you aired the issue on <alt.comp.software.thunderbird>?

John Dunlop

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 11:56:25 AM3/13/23
to
Paul Carmichael:
> El Mon, 13 Mar 2023 13:42:34 +0000, John Dunlop escribió:
>
>> Because it lacks features that stand-alone newsreaders tend to have. For
>> example, in this group, muting quoted text prevents your space bar from
>> wearing out (and preserves your sanity). But you need an add-on for that
>> in Thunderbird. More sophisticated newsreaders (e.g., Pan) provide that
>> functionality out-of-the-box.
>
> Pretty sure I've never heard Pan referred to before as sophisticated. [...]

I'm pretty sure I haven't. "More sophisticated" (i.e., less basic) is a
comparative form. "I'm taller than you" doesn't mean I'm tall.

--
John

Paul Carmichael

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 12:04:42 PM3/13/23
to
Mine does. Now and again it unsubscribes from all groups.

It has other little bugs such as every now and then it explodes all
folder views.

I still use it for email. I like to use different progs for different
stuff. That way I don't join the ranks of those that accidentally post a
private email to a newsgroup. I've seen that happen *often*.


--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

Paul Carmichael

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 12:05:58 PM3/13/23
to
El Mon, 13 Mar 2023 15:56:21 +0000, John Dunlop escribió:

> I'm pretty sure I haven't. "More sophisticated" (i.e., less basic) is a
> comparative form. "I'm taller than you" doesn't mean I'm tall.

Yes it does, because I'm quite tall.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

John Dunlop

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 12:08:02 PM3/13/23
to
Paul Carmichael:
> El Mon, 13 Mar 2023 15:56:21 +0000, John Dunlop escribió:
>
>> I'm pretty sure I haven't. "More sophisticated" (i.e., less basic) is a
>> comparative form. "I'm taller than you" doesn't mean I'm tall.
>
> Yes it does, because I'm quite tall.

I knew you were going to say that.

--
John

Paul Carmichael

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 12:54:14 PM3/13/23
to
What do you think of the show so far?

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

John Dunlop

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 12:58:40 PM3/13/23
to
Paul Carmichael:
> El Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:07:57 +0000, John Dunlop escribió:
>
>> Paul Carmichael:
>>> El Mon, 13 Mar 2023 15:56:21 +0000, John Dunlop escribió:
>>>
>>>> I'm pretty sure I haven't. "More sophisticated" (i.e., less basic) is
>>>> a comparative form. "I'm taller than you" doesn't mean I'm tall.
>>>
>>> Yes it does, because I'm quite tall.
>>
>> I knew you were going to say that.
>
> What do you think of the show so far?

Time ill spent.

--
John

Tak To

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 1:29:57 PM3/13/23
to
On 3/13/2023 10:27 AM, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Den 13.03.2023 kl. 13.57 skrev occam:
>
>> <ahem> Why do you think of TB as 'unsophisticated'?
>
> It has quite strange function for going back and forth in the messages
> in the sequence that I read them in. It works sometimes, and other times
> not. There are messages that I could not read because they had
> diappeared from my window, and the back-and-forth didn't find them.

If a message disappears from the listing window, 9 times out
of 10 it is because it has been marked as read. There are two
stages of filtering in TB, one is at the View-Threads-
{All,Unread...} level, the other at the Tag/Quick Filter
level. The confusing thing is that a read message won't
disappear immediately, but will after any event that updates
the display.

This brings me to my biggest gripe about TB -- there is no
"undo" for marking a message as read (either explicitly
or implicitly). Ideally there should be a separate undo-
stack that let the user "unread" the past N messages.

> I have learnt to live with Thunderbird, but I miss Agent - the best
> newsreader I have tried. I have mentioned before the unique feature with
> filters that can be set to disappear after a specific period, and better
> still: after a specific period with no activity.
>
> I don't understand that other newsreaders haven't copied it.

Users have a different usage pattern.

I never like any sort of automatic *filtering* schemes (including
"kill" features).

I am more in favor of *retaining* schemes. For example, I would
like to mark a subthread/set of messages as "retained" so that
they would be visible in the listing window by default regardless
of their "read" status, together with all never-read messages.
Currently I have to set individual messages as "unread" and
"starred" to approximate the effect, and that is far from ideal.

I prefer filtering capability on duration of inactivity, etc,
to expiration dates on retained subthread/messages.

----- -----

I have never used other newsreaders than TB extensively but I
have read the descriptions of many of them in the group.
Somehow, I rarely found those "advanced" features found outside
of TB useful.

Features in TB that I would like to see

(1) A sophisticated MBOX file repairing tool. There are a number
of garbled MBOX files on my disk. I don't know what went wrong,
and I could not see anything obvious in a text editor. However,
TB hangs while trying to create the index files for them.

(2) In the editor, the ability to make "hard" newlines and
chevrons distinguishable from "soft" ones.

(3) Ability to export subthreads/messages as .zip files.

(4) Ability to override tag precedence; or some way to do
global tag replacements.

Etc

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr






Tak To

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 1:32:32 PM3/13/23
to
On 3/13/2023 9:42 AM, John Dunlop wrote:
> occam:
>>>> Den 13.03.2023 kl. 10.50 skrev John Dunlop:
>>>>
>>>>> Even something as unsophisticated as Thunderbird
>>
>>
>> <ahem> Why do you think of TB as 'unsophisticated'?
>
> Because it lacks features that stand-alone newsreaders tend to have. For
> example, in this group, muting quoted text prevents your space bar from
> wearing out (and preserves your sanity). But you need an add-on for that
> in Thunderbird. More sophisticated newsreaders (e.g., Pan) provide that
> functionality out-of-the-box.

Is "muting quoted text" same as greying it out? What does the
space bar do in this context in TB?

Tak To

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 1:39:22 PM3/13/23
to
I appreciate people changing the subject lines appropriately.
and do make use of the fact.

At times I change the subject lines myself, but have no idea if the
changes make any difference to anyone.

Ken Blake

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 1:47:48 PM3/13/23
to
On 13 Mar 2023 16:04:37 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>El Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:22:34 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen escribió:
>
>> Den 13.03.2023 kl. 16.19 skrev Paul Carmichael:
>>
>>> Pretty sure I've never heard Pan referred to before as sophisticated. I
>>> use it because TB kept losing the plot (maybe a linux issue).
>>
>> Losing the plot? What do you mean?
>>
>> My TB on Linux Mint doesn't lose anything.
>
>
>Mine does. Now and again it unsubscribes from all groups.


That was the problem I had with Thunderbird under Windows 11, and it's
why I switched away from Thunderbird and went back to Agent 6.0.



>It has other little bugs such as every now and then it explodes all
>folder views.
>
>I still use it for email.


So do I.


> I like to use different progs for different
>stuff.


I generally do too, but not for your reason (see below).


>That way I don't join the ranks of those that accidentally post a
>private email to a newsgroup. I've seen that happen *often*.


I generally prefer different programs because it's rare that the same
program is what I consider to be the best in two different categories.
It's the same reason I dislike the idea of software suites; for
example I think Microsoft Excel is the best.spreadsheet program, but
Corel WordPerfect is the best word processor.

Ken Blake

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 1:50:47 PM3/13/23
to
On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 15:27:40 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen
<gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

>Den 13.03.2023 kl. 13.57 skrev occam:
>
>> <ahem> Why do you think of TB as 'unsophisticated'?
>
>It has quite strange function for going back and forth in the messages
>in the sequence that I read them in. It works sometimes, and other times
>not. There are messages that I could not read because they had
>diappeared from my window, and the back-and-forth didn't find them.
>
>I have learnt to live with Thunderbird, but I miss Agent - the best
>newsreader I have tried.

I use and like Agent, but I liked Thunderbird at least as much.

Why do you miss it? Why not switch to it if you think it's the best.?

John Dunlop

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 2:03:57 PM3/13/23
to
Tak To:
> On 3/13/2023 9:42 AM, John Dunlop wrote:

(Thunderbird)

>> Because it lacks features that stand-alone newsreaders tend to have. For
>> example, in this group, muting quoted text prevents your space bar from
>> wearing out (and preserves your sanity). But you need an add-on for that
>> in Thunderbird. More sophisticated newsreaders (e.g., Pan) provide that
>> functionality out-of-the-box.
>
> Is "muting quoted text" same as greying it out?

The extension I use gives you the option of hiding ("collapsing") the
quoted text completely or leaving a few lines visible at the bottom. It
also allows you to collapse or expand individual levels of quotes.

> What does the space bar do in this context in TB?

Moves the text in the message pane up one ... eh, pane-ful. After you
reach the bottom, it moves you to the next unread message.

--
John

Kerr-Mudd, John

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 4:01:29 PM3/13/23
to
On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 13:39:17 -0400
Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:

> On 3/13/2023 10:20 AM, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> > Den 13.03.2023 kl. 13.02 skrev John Dunlop:
> >
> >> Changing the subject line to reflect the content of the subthread would
> >> be helpful, but not many people do that.
> >
> > It would make no difference for my view.
>
> I appreciate people changing the subject lines appropriately.
> and do make use of the fact.
>
> At times I change the subject lines myself, but have no idea if the
> changes make any difference to anyone.
>
I got told off for doing it in here, once upon a time.



--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

TonyCooper

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 4:09:34 PM3/13/23
to
Older RRs are thinking of Bob Cunningham when reading this.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

Bertel Lund Hansen

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 4:27:11 PM3/13/23
to
Den 13.03.2023 kl. 16.35 skrev occam:

>> My TB on Linux Mint doesn't lose anything.
>>
>
> ...other than the messages that go a-missing? (You need a consistent
> story, Bertel ;-)

The messages are still there. I just can't find them.

> Perhaps the 'back-and-forth issue with your TB is also Linux related.
> Have you aired the issue on <alt.comp.software.thunderbird>?

No. I tend to live with the flaws in the programs I use rather than go
through a lot of work only to find that it didn't solve the problem.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Bertel Lund Hansen

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 4:30:12 PM3/13/23
to
Den 13.03.2023 kl. 17.04 skrev Paul Carmichael:

> I still use it for email. I like to use different progs for different
> stuff. That way I don't join the ranks of those that accidentally post a
> private email to a newsgroup. I've seen that happen *often*.

It hasn't happened to me, neither in Agent nor in TB. I've more often
seen usenet messaghes be sent as private email. I haven't done that either.

I like to have both functions in one program because I may want to email
a person that has written something in a newsgroup. I did that maybe
twice a year but that is a long time ago.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Bertel Lund Hansen

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 4:31:30 PM3/13/23
to
Den 13.03.2023 kl. 18.47 skrev Ken Blake:

> That was the problem I had with Thunderbird under Windows 11, and it's
> why I switched away from Thunderbird and went back to Agent 6.0.

I tried Agent 6 under Wine a second time, but it (or Wine) crashed.

--
Bertel, Denmark

occam

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 4:32:27 PM3/13/23
to
More recent posters may be thinking of occam when reading K-M J's
confession. I did rebuke him on one occasion (and promptly reversed the
subject line), on the grounds that it was an unnecessary act of 'tidying
up'.


Bertel Lund Hansen

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 4:41:18 PM3/13/23
to
Den 13.03.2023 kl. 18.29 skrev Tak To:

>> It has quite strange function for going back and forth in the messages
>> in the sequence that I read them in. It works sometimes, and other times
>> not. There are messages that I could not read because they had
>> diappeared from my window, and the back-and-forth didn't find them.
>
> If a message disappears from the listing window, 9 times out
> of 10 it is because it has been marked as read.

Not here. Messages are marked as read the second they are displayed.

> There are two
> stages of filtering in TB, one is at the View-Threads-
> {All,Unread...} level, the other at the Tag/Quick Filter
> level. The confusing thing is that a read message won't
> disappear immediately, but will after any event that updates
> the display.

Messages that are displayed here, never disappear. The filters I use,
are only active while fetching.

> This brings me to my biggest gripe about TB -- there is no
> "undo" for marking a message as read (either explicitly
> or implicitly).

Try to mark (or display) a message and then press M. You can mark as
many as you like.

>> I have learnt to live with Thunderbird, but I miss Agent - the best
>> newsreader I have tried. I have mentioned before the unique feature with
>> filters that can be set to disappear after a specific period, and better
>> still: after a specific period with no activity.
>>
>> I don't understand that other newsreaders haven't copied it.
>
> Users have a different usage pattern.

They can leave the option unused if they don't like it.

> Features in TB that I would like to see
>
> (1) A sophisticated MBOX file repairing tool. There are a number
> of garbled MBOX files on my disk. I don't know what went wrong,
> and I could not see anything obvious in a text editor. However,
> TB hangs while trying to create the index files for them.

I haven't had the problem, but I would roll out my backup if something
like that happened to me.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Bertel Lund Hansen

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 4:42:37 PM3/13/23
to
Den 13.03.2023 kl. 18.50 skrev Ken Blake:

> Why do you miss it? Why not switch to it if you think it's the best.?

Because I now run Linux. Agent can run under Wine, but it crashes. I've
tried it twice.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Peter Moylan

unread,
Mar 13, 2023, 8:39:48 PM3/13/23
to
There used to be some broken newsreaders that started a new thread when
the subject line changed. I don't think that happens any more.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Bertel Lund Hansen

unread,
Mar 14, 2023, 3:26:03 AM3/14/23
to
Den 14.03.2023 kl. 01.39 skrev Peter Moylan:

> There used to be some broken newsreaders that started a new thread when
> the subject line changed. I don't think that happens any more.

In Agent you can choose that if they haven't removed the option in the
present version.

I have forgotten whether it's an option in TB.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Snidely

unread,
Mar 14, 2023, 3:26:59 AM3/14/23
to
John Dunlop asserted that:
Doesn't bring in many drachmas for me, either, but I swear less at my
computer when I'm reading AUE than when I'm trying to get it to do
other things, so I guess I get some relaxation from AUE.

Too bad I never got any sheep.

/dps

--
Yes, I have had a cucumber soda. Why do you ask?

Snidely

unread,
Mar 14, 2023, 3:30:00 AM3/14/23
to
Bertel Lund Hansen formulated the question :
> Den 13.03.2023 kl. 13.57 skrev occam:
>
>> <ahem> Why do you think of TB as 'unsophisticated'?
>
> It has quite strange function for going back and forth in the messages in the
> sequence that I read them in. It works sometimes, and other times not. There
> are messages that I could not read because they had diappeared from my
> window, and the back-and-forth didn't find them.
>
> I have learnt to live with Thunderbird, but I miss Agent - the best
> newsreader I have tried. I have mentioned before the unique feature with
> filters that can be set to disappear after a specific period, and better
> still: after a specific period with no activity.
>
> I don't understand that other newsreaders haven't copied it.

Ah, Mesnews has something along those lines, but on the downside, it is
frozen in time. (Same thing happened to my favorite CD player program,
and to an editor I used to be very fond of.)

/dps

--
"Maintaining a really good conspiracy requires far more intelligent
application, by a large number of people, than the world can readily
supply."

Sam Plusnet

Snidely

unread,
Mar 14, 2023, 3:35:33 AM3/14/23
to
On Monday, Tak To pointed out that ...

> This brings me to my biggest gripe about TB -- there is no
> "undo" for marking a message as read (either explicitly
> or implicitly). Ideally there should be a separate undo-
> stack that let the user "unread" the past N messages.

Back when readnews was the sophisticated tool for reading Usenet (4.x
BSD on Vaxen that got larger every couple of years), knowing how to
tweak a .newsrc was a useful skill. Even when Larry Wall's rn took
front stage, that was a known fall back. And it still seems a good
idea to back up the current descendant of .newsrc from time to time.

Snidely

unread,
Mar 14, 2023, 3:41:04 AM3/14/23
to
Monday, Bertel Lund Hansen quipped:
For forensic purposes, I might look at hex dump to see if any unusual
character values have crept in. In UTF8, sometimes a multibyte
character might be in a non-canonical form, for instance, or a break of
some sort (buffer boundary condition, perhaps) may have introduced an
illegal value that your editor chooses to ignore.

/dps "don't ask me how I know this"

--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean

Snidely

unread,
Mar 14, 2023, 3:43:40 AM3/14/23
to
Snidely is guilty of <mn.701d7e735742ccdf.127094@snitoo> as of
3/14/2023 12:29:52 AM

> frozen in time. (Same thing happened to my favorite CD player program
> ...

I currently like VLC a lot, but it is missing "stop after the current
track". Something I like when playing certain pieces, like the Enigma
Variations.

/dps

--
"This is all very fine, but let us not be carried away be excitement,
but ask calmly, how does this person feel about in in his cooler
moments next day, with six or seven thousand feet of snow and stuff on
top of him?"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain.

Peter Moylan

unread,
Mar 14, 2023, 3:45:36 AM3/14/23
to
On 14/03/23 18:35, Snidely wrote:
> On Monday, Tak To pointed out that ...
>
>> This brings me to my biggest gripe about TB -- there is no "undo"
>> for marking a message as read (either explicitly or implicitly).
>> Ideally there should be a separate undo- stack that let the user
>> "unread" the past N messages.
>
> Back when readnews was the sophisticated tool for reading Usenet (4.x
> BSD on Vaxen that got larger every couple of years), knowing how to
> tweak a .newsrc was a useful skill. Even when Larry Wall's rn took
> front stage, that was a known fall back. And it still seems a good
> idea to back up the current descendant of .newsrc from time to time.

Those files still exist in Thunderbird. The filenames are of the form
servername.rc, and the content is the same as a traditional .newsrc
file. The only hard part is that, as with all Mozilla files, the files
are buried several layers down in your MOZPROFILES directory.

Kerr-Mudd, John

unread,
Mar 14, 2023, 5:08:45 AM3/14/23
to
Ah; so he trolled quite a few NGs then.

Bertel Lund Hansen

unread,
Mar 14, 2023, 5:56:48 AM3/14/23
to
Den 14.03.2023 kl. 08.45 skrev Peter Moylan:

> Those files still exist in Thunderbird. The filenames are of the form
> servername.rc,

On my system it is "newsrc-news.eternal-september-1.org".

--
Bertel, Denmark

Peter Moylan

unread,
Mar 14, 2023, 7:02:35 AM3/14/23
to
Interesting. There might have been a design change with version. On my
system, the .org files are directories, one for each news server,
containing a bunch of configuration files.

HVS

unread,
Mar 14, 2023, 10:05:03 AM3/14/23
to
On 14 Mar 2023, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote
It's there in XNews -- a tick-box for "Start new thread when subject
changes". I think I'd expect a "proper" newsreader to have that
option.

(Am I the only one here that still uses XNews? I was pleased to find
that since it's a simple executable that doesn't need to be
"installed", it still works fine on Windows 10. I've got 5
programs/utilities from the olden days that are like that.)

--
Cheers, Harvey

bruce bowser

unread,
Mar 14, 2023, 11:01:42 AM3/14/23
to
On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 4:56:10 AM UTC-4, Michael Uplawski wrote:
> Good morning.
>
> I cannot contribute much to any discussion at this moment, but reading
> alt.usage.english has become just as difficult:
> My newsreader marks filtered postings but does not remove them from the
> threads. With about 90% of the content being reduced to mere clutter,
> this newsgroup has beaten all recoeds in a short time. This can be a
> problem of my program, but I will stick to it for other reasons.
>
> Can you recommed a different group, possibly outside the alt-hierachy
> for English languge topics?

Of course, fr.lettres.langue.anglaise

Kerr-Mudd, John

unread,
Mar 14, 2023, 11:16:54 AM3/14/23