Re: "Cunt" a term of endearment in American English
Dena Jo
> I've reread Chaucer's Miller's tale, and I failed to find "cunt."
> The closest I found was a reference to "hir hole" and "He felte a
> thyng al rough and long yherd," but "hole" wasn't being used as a
> term of endearment. So, have I missed it, or did she pick the
> wrong tale?
May be the wrong tale -- my recall isn't all it should be -- but look
for the word "quaint."
--
Dena Jo
Email goes to denajo2 at the dot com variation of the Yahoo domain.
Have I confused you? Go here:
http://myweb.cableone.net/denajo/emailme.htm
Dena Jo
> May be the wrong tale -- my recall isn't all it should be -- but
> look for the word "quaint."
Sorry. "Queynt."
Lars Eighner
<91f41fac.04061...@posting.google.com>,
the lovely and talented Al in Dallas
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> University of Colorado President Betsy Hoffman testified that
> "cunt" could be used as a "term of endearment." After taking a
> lot of flak for her testimony, she later said, "I should have
> said, 'Read Chaucer's *The Miller's Tale*."
> Now, shouldn't a university president understand that what
> Chaucer wrote is not particularly relevant when she's being
> deposed about contemporary American English usage? [The topic
> was football players calling a female student a cunt.]
> I've reread Chaucer's Miller's tale, and I failed to find "cunt."
> The closest I found was a reference to "hir hole" and "He felte a
> thyng al rough and long yherd," but "hole" wasn't being used as a
> term of endearment. So, have I missed it, or did she pick the
> wrong tale?
Yes. She should have told this one:
What do you call a girl with two cunts?
Posh Spice.
--
Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- eig...@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/
"The very essence of the creative is its novelty, and hence we have no
standard by which to judge it." --Carl R. Rogers, On Becoming a Person
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
[...]
> What do you call a girl with two cunts?
A "quaint queynt"?
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
AUEer Emeritus & Eremitus
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
«Pensad siempre en AUE y dedicad, con amor y devoción,
lo mejor de vuestros esfuerzos a los AUEers». -Los Reyes
Al in Dallas
> On 18 Jun 2004, Dena Jo posted thus:
>
> > May be the wrong tale -- my recall isn't all it should be -- but
> > look for the word "quaint."
>
> Sorry. "Queynt."
That only led to "And prively he caughte hire by the queynte"
where "queynte" is not a term of endearment. So it looks like the
university president was trying to cover her fanny to no avail.
Thanks for pointing me to Chaucer's spelling.
Of course this raises two new questions: How does one steathily
catch a woman by her pudenda? And why does
http://www.librarius.com/canttran/mttrfs.htm[1] translate the
line I quoted as "And unperceived he caught her by the puss"? The
only definitions for "puss" seem to be cat, girl, and face, none
of which apply. Were they too squeamish to print "pussy"? But
then why not choose a different word? And "unperceived" doesn't
seem to be the best choice. [I think I've used more than two
question marks. So, I'll quit.]
[1] Choose "163-198: Nicolas courts Alison" in the left-hand
frame, and the line I quoted is the sixth line down in the Middle
English version in the left-hand column in the upper-right-hand
frame.
--
Al in Dallas
Steve Hayes
>University of Colorado President Betsy Hoffman testified that
>"cunt" could be used as a "term of endearment." After taking a
>lot of flak for her testimony, she later said, "I should have
>said, 'Read Chaucer's *The Miller's Tale*."
>
>Now, shouldn't a university president understand that what
>Chaucer wrote is not particularly relevant when she's being
>deposed about contemporary American English usage? [The topic
>was football players calling a female student a cunt.]
Why was she, rather than the football player, being deposed?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Donna Richoux
> On 18 Jun 2004 08:54:52 -0700, alfar...@yahoo.com (Al in Dallas) wrote:
>
> >University of Colorado President Betsy Hoffman testified that
> >"cunt" could be used as a "term of endearment." After taking a
> >lot of flak for her testimony, she later said, "I should have
> >said, 'Read Chaucer's *The Miller's Tale*."
> >
> >Now, shouldn't a university president understand that what
> >Chaucer wrote is not particularly relevant when she's being
> >deposed about contemporary American English usage? [The topic
> >was football players calling a female student a cunt.]
>
> Why was she, rather than the football player, being deposed?
You don't know whether he was as well; nor do I. However, it was the
university that was being sued, and it was her testimony that made the
news. There's an article at
http://www.coloradodaily.com/articles/2004/06/16/news/news01.txt
I notice:
Attorneys for plaintiffs Lisa Simpson and Anne
Gilmore, who filed a federal civil suit against CU
claiming an environment of sexual harassment led to
their rape by football players at or in connection
with a Dec. 2001 off-campus party, grilled Hoffman
on sexual harassment accountability and protocol in
her deposition.
Lisa Simpson? When I also saw "Gilmore" I wondered if there was now a
fashion to be anonymous by adopting names from TV shows, but I see there
is no "Anne" on "The Gilmore Girls."
More to the point are the comments about lesbians and feminists. There
has been a real attempt in those circles to reclaim the word "cunt" from
being nearly unspeakably vile, to being a literal and even fond term.
They've got a point -- I think it has the theoretical right to be used
as a simple anatomical term, without dread and shame.
Which is a different question from pretending that it is never used as
an insult. The Hoffman story doesn't say she went that far. She
apparently was pushed into a corner:
When asked if it could ever be used in a polite
context, Hoffman replied, "Yes, I've actually heard
it used as a term of endearment."
Hoffman defended her answer Tuesday in a meeting
with Durango (Colo.) Herald reporters and editors,
but said she should have phrased it differently.
"I was immediately sorry I said it," she said.
So, I see that this was just one bit of a much larger testimony, and the
part that the media decided to make a fuss about. The quote doesn't
indicate that she believed it was *always* or even *often* used this way
- she was asked, *ever*.
There's a discussion of the issue here:
http://web.morons.org/article.jsp?sectionid=8&id=5180
I hope Colorado stays focussed on the real question, whether the women
were harassed. The impression is being given that the college president
is trying to excuse the behavior, when that might not have been her main
point at all.
Then of course there's the side issue of the different uses in the US
and outside of it. Basically, in the UK the insult means "stupid man,"
and in the US "disagreeable woman." Right?
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Chris Kern
posted the following:
> And why does
>http://www.librarius.com/canttran/mttrfs.htm[1] translate the
>line I quoted as "And unperceived he caught her by the puss"? The
>only definitions for "puss" seem to be cat, girl, and face, none
>of which apply. Were they too squeamish to print "pussy"?
I have heard the word "puss" used as another slang term for "vagina",
at about the same level of slanginess/vulgarity as "pussy". Google
searches seem to confirm this (70,800 hits for "lick puss", for
instance)
-Chris
RobertE
"Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1gfmhz8.1ww437a1mcqkxsN%tr...@euronet.nl...
> Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Then of course there's the side issue of the different uses in the US
> and outside of it. Basically, in the UK the insult means "stupid man,"
> and in the US "disagreeable woman." Right?
That's correct. It's very commonly heard in the UK, particularly in the
North of England and Scotland. Its use is contextual, however - the social
context, that is. It's of that class of words that one wouldn't, for
instance, use in front of one's grandmother (unless one had a rather
exceptionally tough old granny), but would use amongst one's mates down the
local.
Parenthetically, earlier in this thread a poster wrote, "So it looks like
the
university president was trying to cover her fanny to no avail." Strangely
ironic, perhaps intentionally so. As is no doubt already known to many of
this group, while in the US a "fanny" is the "back bottom" and is a word one
could easily use in front of one's granny, in the UK it's the "front bottom"
and one probably wouldn't use the word in the presence of one's grandmother.
It's not considered to be as rude, for lack of a better term, as "cunt" but
its use, in many social circles, is still likely to raise a few eyebrows.
Michael West
> Then of course there's the side issue of the different uses in the US
> and outside of it. Basically, in the UK the insult means "stupid man,"
> and in the US "disagreeable woman." Right?
"Stupid man" is the usual approximate meaning
in Australia as well, and it doesn't carry the
contempt that it carries in the US. I don't really
know whether it is ever used in Oz as an
anatomical reference, as it is in the US when
it isn't a personal epithet. I suspect it may not be--
not often, anyway.
I remember being gobsmacked, as a high school
student (c 1961), when an older girl said "You
cunt!" to me. She was only mildly annoyed at me,
and I think she took into account that we'd been
acquainted for some time, but I must have turned
white because I never imagined girls at my school
used such language. It was strictly boys' locker-room
stuff.
--
Michael West
Melbourne, Australia
Dr Robin Bignall
wrote:
Teachers have been spreading the story that the graffiti in girls' toilets
at school is far worse than that in boys' for as long as I can remember.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Hertfordshire
England
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
[...]
> I have heard the word "puss" used as another slang term for "vagina",
*Vulva*, dammit.
> at about the same level of slanginess/vulgarity as "pussy". Google
> searches seem to confirm this (70,800 hits for "lick puss", for
> instance)
Only anteaters can lick vaginas.
R H Draney
>
>Teachers have been spreading the story that the graffiti in girls' toilets
>at school is far worse than that in boys' for as long as I can remember.
Stands to reason that there'd be *more* of it, at any rate...they're in there
alone, they're sitting more or less comfortably, they're able to have both hands
free at least some of the time, and they have their purses with them (containing
writing implements, inter alia)....r
CyberCypher
> Teachers have been spreading the story that the graffiti in girls'
> toilets at school is far worse than that in boys' for as long as I
> can remember.
At my university in Taiwan, it's the female students who spread the
story that the girls-room toilets are filthy because the some of girls
who use them like to cover the walls and floors not with graffiti but
with feces and menstrual blood.
The toilets in the boys rooms are never like that. There is a little
graffiti, but nothing compared with what is found in American school
toilets, and any feces on the floor is a result of the boy having
missed the hole in the floor because he squatted a little too far back.
Some boys don't feel obliged to clean up after themselves, and some
don't feel obliged to flush the toilets either.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.
Michael West
> Only anteaters can lick vaginas.
Memorable words from a very cunning linguist.
Sean O'Leathlobhair
> "Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
> news:1gfmhz8.1ww437a1mcqkxsN%tr...@euronet.nl...
> > Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Then of course there's the side issue of the different uses in the US
> > and outside of it. Basically, in the UK the insult means "stupid man,"
> > and in the US "disagreeable woman." Right?
>
> That's correct. It's very commonly heard in the UK, particularly in the
> North of England and Scotland. Its use is contextual, however - the social
> context, that is. It's of that class of words that one wouldn't, for
> instance, use in front of one's grandmother (unless one had a rather
> exceptionally tough old granny), but would use amongst one's mates down the
> local.
I am a bit of poncy southerner (now resident in the Midlands) but I
avoid this particular swearword. It seems to have a much greater
likelihood of causing serious offence even than fuck, dickhead etc. I
have often wondered why. Insults based on the male genitals are
commonly used and don't seem to be regarded as especially shocking.
But ones based on female genitals are rare and much more offensive.
> Parenthetically, earlier in this thread a poster wrote, "So it looks like
> the
> university president was trying to cover her fanny to no avail." Strangely
> ironic, perhaps intentionally so. As is no doubt already known to many of
> this group, while in the US a "fanny" is the "back bottom" and is a word one
> could easily use in front of one's granny, in the UK it's the "front bottom"
> and one probably wouldn't use the word in the presence of one's grandmother.
> It's not considered to be as rude, for lack of a better term, as "cunt" but
> its use, in many social circles, is still likely to raise a few eyebrows.
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
John Dean
> "RobertE" <som...@somewhere.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:<Od2dnbeKyZ9...@nildram.net>...
>> "Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
>> news:1gfmhz8.1ww437a1mcqkxsN%tr...@euronet.nl...
>>> Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Then of course there's the side issue of the different uses in the
>>> US and outside of it. Basically, in the UK the insult means "stupid
>>> man," and in the US "disagreeable woman." Right?
>>
>> That's correct. It's very commonly heard in the UK, particularly in
>> the North of England and Scotland. Its use is contextual, however -
>> the social context, that is. It's of that class of words that one
>> wouldn't, for instance, use in front of one's grandmother (unless
>> one had a rather exceptionally tough old granny), but would use
>> amongst one's mates down the local.
>
> I am a bit of poncy southerner (now resident in the Midlands) but I
> avoid this particular swearword. It seems to have a much greater
> likelihood of causing serious offence even than fuck, dickhead etc. I
> have often wondered why. Insults based on the male genitals are
> commonly used and don't seem to be regarded as especially shocking.
> But ones based on female genitals are rare and much more offensive.
>
they're more offensive than 'dick' or 'prick'. And, of course, 'cunt' is
increasingly used in contexts where it is not directly a swearword - cf
Irving Walsh's announcement at some literary affair 'Ah'm totally
cunted' which was greeted with a round of applause.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Matti Lamprhey
> "John Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote...
>
> > I don't think 'twat' or 'pussy' are particularly rare and I don't
> > think they're more offensive than 'dick' or 'prick'.
>
> They think it's synonymous with "twit". My 14-year old daughter used
> it at the dinner table a few days ago, and was told to mind her
> language. She was mortified when told what it meant. But many
> adults are in the same boat, methinks.
I suspect that the folk who think it means "twit" are more numerous than
those who think it means "cunt"; perhaps you ought to have left well
alone.
Matti
Michael West
Better to be safe, I think. It's probably a generational
thing, so using "twat" in the presence of old folks is
almost sure to shock. (Disclaimer: this is a US point
of view; I'm not familiar with UK uses of "twat".)
CyberCypher
> Matti Lamprhey wrote:
[...]
>> I suspect that the folk who think it means "twit" are more
>> numerous than those who think it means "cunt"; perhaps you ought
>> to have left well alone.
>
> Better to be safe, I think. It's probably a generational
> thing, so using "twat" in the presence of old folks is
> almost sure to shock. (Disclaimer: this is a US point
> of view; I'm not familiar with UK uses of "twat".)
"Old" is surley correct. There's the old joke about the TWA (as in
TransWorld Airlines) stewardess who asks at meal time, "Would you like
TWA coffee or TWA tea?"
John Dean
> "John Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message
> news:cb555h$78k$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>>>
>> I don't think 'twat' or 'pussy' are particularly rare and I don't
>> think they're more offensive than 'dick' or 'prick'.
>>
>
> They think it's synonymous with "twit". My 14-year old daughter used
> it at the dinner table a few days ago, and was told to mind her
> language. She was mortified when told what it meant. But many adults
> are in the same boat, methinks.
>
Don't get me started on Robert Browning again ...
I used to work for a bloke who always used the term 'twot'. His speech
was clearly elucidated so there was no question of mispronunciation.
He's the only person I've ever heard use it - OED says it is equivalent
to 'twat' but 'of obscure origin'. I'll bet. OED has Norman Mailer
writing it.
I note also from OED that Prof Greer is quoted "No woman wants to find
out that she has a twat like a horse-collar". Which I take to be the
Antipodean equivalent of a 'mary like a wizard's sleeve'.
--
John Dean
Oxford
R H Draney
>
>I suspect that the folk who think it means "twit" are more numerous than
>those who think it means "cunt"; perhaps you ought to have left well
>alone.
How often, outside specialized circles, is one called upon to refer to a
pregnant goldfish?...r
Matti Lamprhey
That sounds vaguely familiar, but I can't recall the link. Is it a
meaning for "twat" or "twit" which has eluded my dictionary?
Matti
Demetrius Zeluff
news:40d6fa4a$1...@chlorine.cen.brad.ac.uk:
>> Mike Mooney wrote:
>> > I think that's because lots of people don't know what "twat" means.
>> > They think it's synonymous with "twit". My 14-year old daughter
>> > used it at the dinner table a few days ago, and was told to mind
>> > her language. She was mortified when told what it meant. But many
>> > adults are in the same boat, methinks.
[snip]
> More ignorance of the real meaning, again, I think.
Aren't some words ruder than others?
I know exactly what twat means, and use it often. I'd be a bit more
careful about the word cunt.
Calling someone a tosser is less harsh than calling them a wanker, unless
you're using wanker affectionatly.
Many people wouldn't blink at cheeky bugger, would laugh at wank-badger,
and would be less annoyed with cocking fuck sucker than fucking cock
sucker.
Being called a prick is about the same as being called a bell end, but dozy
prick is probably better.
Interestingly, hucking fell, cucking funt, knucking fob, etc, all annoy
about as much as the untransposed versions.
John Dean
>> Mike Mooney wrote:
>>> "John Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message
>>> news:cb555h$78k$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I don't think 'twat' or 'pussy' are particularly rare and I don't
>>>> think they're more offensive than 'dick' or 'prick'.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think that's because lots of people don't know what "twat" means.
>>> They think it's synonymous with "twit". My 14-year old daughter used
>>> it at the dinner table a few days ago, and was told to mind her
>>> language. She was mortified when told what it meant. But many adults
>>> are in the same boat, methinks.
>>>
>>> Mike M
>>
>> Don't get me started on Robert Browning again ...
>> I used to work for a bloke who always used the term 'twot'. His
>> speech was clearly elucidated so there was no question of
>> mispronunciation. He's the only person I've ever heard use it - OED
>> says it is equivalent to 'twat' but 'of obscure origin'. I'll bet.
>
> consider it a mild expletive, equivalent to "twit", rather than
> "cunt".
>
>> OED has Norman Mailer
>> writing it.
>
> The Dead") as a substitute for "fuckin'".
>
People seem determined to pull out from the dike retarding my hoary the
anecdotes the finger of discretion that has hitherto limited to biennial
outings such tales as ...
... when Dorothy Parker was introduced to Norman Mailer she said 'Ah. So
you're the young man who can't spell 'fuck'."
--
John Dean
Oxford
R H Draney
"Twit", if one believes the lists of "useless facts" that periodically make the
rounds in e-mail...it often keeps company with "an ostrich's eye is larger than
its brain" and "a pig's orgasm lasts for six hours"....r
Sean O'Leathlobhair
> Sean O'Leathlobhair wrote:
> > "RobertE" <som...@somewhere.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:<Od2dnbeKyZ9...@nildram.net>...
> >> "Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
> >> news:1gfmhz8.1ww437a1mcqkxsN%tr...@euronet.nl...
> >>> Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Then of course there's the side issue of the different uses in the
> >>> US and outside of it. Basically, in the UK the insult means "stupid
> >>> man," and in the US "disagreeable woman." Right?
> >>
> >> That's correct. It's very commonly heard in the UK, particularly in
> >> the North of England and Scotland. Its use is contextual, however -
> >> the social context, that is. It's of that class of words that one
> >> wouldn't, for instance, use in front of one's grandmother (unless
> >> one had a rather exceptionally tough old granny), but would use
> >> amongst one's mates down the local.
> >
> > I am a bit of poncy southerner (now resident in the Midlands) but I
> > avoid this particular swearword. It seems to have a much greater
> > likelihood of causing serious offence even than fuck, dickhead etc. I
> > have often wondered why. Insults based on the male genitals are
> > commonly used and don't seem to be regarded as especially shocking.
> > But ones based on female genitals are rare and much more offensive.
> >
> I don't think 'twat' or 'pussy' are particularly rare and I don't think
> they're more offensive than 'dick' or 'prick'.
True, I tried to to think of others and failed. In my circles, twat is
very rare. If someone said: "You pussy!", I would think of a baby cat
rather than a woman's genitals.
> And, of course, 'cunt' is
> increasingly used in contexts where it is not directly a swearword - cf
> Irving Walsh's announcement at some literary affair 'Ah'm totally
> cunted' which was greeted with a round of applause.
I am completely unfamiliar with these uses.
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Tony Cooper
O'Leathlobhair) wrote:
>True, I tried to to think of others and failed. In my circles, twat is
>very rare. If someone said: "You pussy!", I would think of a baby cat
>rather than a woman's genitals.
>
If an American says "You pussy!", the meaning is that (a) he thinks
you are "pussy-whipped" or under the thumb of your wife or girlfriend,
or (b) he is saying that you are 'fraidy-cat or give up too easily.
Driver: That guy behind me keeps honking his horn.
Passenger: Give him the finger!
Driver: I don't think so. He looks pretty big.
Passenger: You pussy! (meaning #2)
Driver: Let's stop for a beer on the way home.
Passenger. Can't. I told my wife I'd be home by five, and she'll
kill me if I'm late.
Driver: Pussy! (meaning #1)
Michael West
> Norman Mailer of course routinely used "fuggin'" (in "The Naked And The
> Dead") as a substitute for "fuckin'".
Had to. "Fuckin'" was an unprintable word.
Liz
> Mike Mooney wrote:
> > Norman Mailer of course routinely used "fuggin'" (in "The Naked And
> > The Dead") as a substitute for "fuckin'".
> >
> People seem determined to pull out from the dike retarding my hoary the
> anecdotes the finger of discretion that has hitherto limited to biennial
> outings such tales as ...
> ... when Dorothy Parker was introduced to Norman Mailer she said 'Ah. So
> you're the young man who can't spell 'fuck'."
Good for her. Don't substitute some fake politeness shit or
goofy "***" to fuck up my spellchecker. Have fun using these
animated words, and try to spell them correctly. Thank you.
Robert Bannister
> "John Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message
> news:cb555h$78k$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>
>>I don't think 'twat' or 'pussy' are particularly rare and I don't think
>>they're more offensive than 'dick' or 'prick'.
>>
>
>
> I think that's because lots of people don't know what "twat" means. They
> think it's synonymous with "twit". My 14-year old daughter used it at the
> dinner table a few days ago, and was told to mind her language. She was
> mortified when told what it meant. But many adults are in the same boat,
> methinks.
Got to agree with that, and, as for 'pussy', when is it ever used as a
swear word? If it is used (perhaps to mean 'wuss' or 'wimp'), most
people would associate it with the 'pussy cat' meaning.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Teachers have been spreading the story that the graffiti in girls' toilets
> at school is far worse than that in boys' for as long as I can remember.
It's not a story. Nevertheless, there is less of it.
--
Rob Bannister
Raymond S. Wise
news:%pKBc.48851$sj4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Let's say, "barely printable" at the time.
From
http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/GESUND/ARCHIV/SEN/CH16.HTM
"Partridge's _A Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English,_ published
originally in 1937, was the first 20th century dictionary to include 'fuck'
and other colloquial sexual words. _The American Heritage Dictionary_
published in 1969 was the first general, college-sized dictionary to follow
suit. Others followed soon after and with the 1989 edition of the _OED,_ the
full range of sexual language was covered."
I vaguely remember having heard that the AHD decision to include the word
was controversial, and I've read discussions about the OED's decision not to
include that and other "four-letter words" in its original edition, but I've
never heard that there was a controversy concerning Partridge's listing it
as an entry, although I figure there must have been.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Michael West
> Got to agree with that, and, as for 'pussy', when is it ever used as a
> swear word?
Whenever it's used for the female genitalia; i.e., all the time.
> If it is used (perhaps to mean 'wuss' or 'wimp'), most
> people would associate it with the 'pussy cat' meaning.
I must be in the minority. I associate it with the
"female" meaning, but it is connotatively different
from "cunt" when used as a personal epithet. To me,
"pussy" is a weak, effeminate male (when it's not the
female thing or the feline thing), by association with
the "female" meaning of the term.
Michael West
[Re: "pussy']
> I must be in the minority. I associate it with the
> "female" meaning, but it is connotatively different
> from "cunt" when used as a personal epithet. To me,
> "pussy" is a weak, effeminate male (when it's not the
> female thing or the feline thing), by association with
> the "female" meaning of the term.
I should add that "pussy cat" is also in my vocabulary
meaning "wimp", but *without* the female connotation.
I should add too, that until today (just looked it up)
I've always assumed that the female meaning derived
from the feline meaning (i.e., as something soft, furry,
and, when propitious circumstances obtain, eminently
strokeable.) I am disappointed.
Michael West
> "Michael West" <mbw...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:%pKBc.48851$sj4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> Mike Mooney wrote:
>>
>>> Norman Mailer of course routinely used "fuggin'" (in "The Naked And The
>>> Dead") as a substitute for "fuckin'".
>>
>> Had to. "Fuckin'" was an unprintable word.
Okay. In 1948, it could not be used in commercially printed fiction
or journalism for mass distribution in the USA. It might have been
allowed in specialist publications intended for reference purposes.
Alec McKenzie
> I should add too, that until today (just looked it up)
> I've always assumed that the female meaning derived
> from the feline meaning (i.e., as something soft, furry,
> and, when propitious circumstances obtain, eminently
> strokeable.) I am disappointed.
Well, my dictionary does say "perhaps" from a non-feline origin.
--
Alec McKenzie
mcke...@despammed.com
John Dean
Ulysses was published in 1934 in the States.
Jesse Sheidlower's 'The F-Word' records several pre-war uses by American
authors - Dos Passos in 29-30 in '42nd Parallel' - "Jack, it was a
fucking shame" and Hemingway in 1937 'To Have and Have Not' - "A man
alone ain't got no bloody fucking chance".
Sheidlower quotes the first open publication of the F-word in the USA as
1926, in a diary of WW1.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Michael West
_Ulysses_ of course, became the subject of an obscenity
trial. My recollection was that the book was privately
printed overseas, but I could be wrong.
I'm surprised to hear about the uses in Dos Passos
and Hemingway. I'd be curious as to whether these
were small private printings or mass-market publications.
Otherwise, what was the publisher's problem in the
case of Mailer? I can't believe it was some sort of
inhibition on his part that led to the substitution of
the euphemism.
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> I'm surprised to hear about the uses in Dos Passos
> and Hemingway. I'd be curious as to whether these
> were small private printings or mass-market publications.
> Otherwise, what was the publisher's problem in the
> case of Mailer? I can't believe it was some sort of
> inhibition on his part that led to the substitution of
> the euphemism.
I think the problem was quantity. An occasional use for extreme
emphasis is one thing. But Mailer's book was shot through with the
word, to the point where it would be a very different book without
it.
I remember seeing a film of James Whitmore as Harry Truman in *Give
'em Hell, Harry* on PBS maybe 25 years ago. At one point, he
describes something as "bullshit," I was surprised that it went by
unbeeped, but it was the only usage in the show and it fit the
character.
At the other extreme was the *South Park* "shit" show, in which they
actually had a counter add up the uses. I have a feeling the FCC's
crackdown on such things is going to keep anyone other than pay
cable from rerunning that one.
--
Bob Lieblich
F---
Michael West
http://www.etymonline.com. Note the cameo
appearance by a noted aue regular and erstwhile
ancient Egyptian contract lawyer.
==========================================
Fuck was outlawed in print in England (by the Obscene Publications Act, 1857) and the
U.S. (by the Comstock Act, 1873). The word may have been shunned in print, but it
continued in conversation, especially among soldiers during WWI.
"It became so common that an effective way for the soldier to express this emotion was
to omit this word. Thus if a sergeant said, 'Get your ----ing rifles!' it was
understood as a matter of routine. But if he said 'Get your rifles!' there was an
immediate implication of urgency and danger." [John Brophy, "Songs and Slang of the
British Soldier: 1914-1918," pub. 1930]
The legal barriers broke down in the 20th century, with the "Ulysses" decision (U.S.,
1933) and "Lady Chatterley's Lover" (U.S., 1959; U.K., 1960). Johnson excluded the
word, and fuck wasn't in a single English language dictionary from 1795 to 1965. "The
Penguin Dictionary" broke the taboo in the latter year. Houghton Mifflin followed, in
1969, with "The American Heritage Dictionary," but it also published a "Clean Green"
edition without the word, to assure itself access to the lucrative public high school
market. The abbreviation F (or eff) probably began as euphemistic, but by 1943 it was
being used as a cuss word, too. In 1948, the publishers of "The Naked and the Dead"
persuaded Norman Mailer to use the euphemism fug instead. When Mailer later was
introduced to Dorothy Parker, she greeted him with, "So you're the man who can't spell
'fuck' " [The quip sometimes is attributed to Tallulah Bankhead]. Hemingway used muck
in "For whom the Bell Tolls," 1940. The major breakthrough in publication was James
Jones' "From Here to Eternity" (1950), with 50 fucks (down from 258 in the original
manuscript). Egyptian legal agreements from the 23rd Dynasty (749-21 B.C.E.)
frequently include the phrase, "If you do not obey this decree, may a donkey copulate
with you!" [Reinhold Aman, "Maledicta," Summer 1977].
===================================================
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Got to agree with that, and, as for 'pussy', when is it ever used as
> a swear word? If it is used (perhaps to mean 'wuss' or 'wimp'),
Which is an interesting way to put it, since, at least in the US, the
bulk of the popularity of the word "wuss" (if not the coinage) can
probably be traced to the movie _Fast Times at Ridgemont High_, which
containst the explanatory line:
DAMONE
You... are a wuss. Part wimp. Part
pussy.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |To express oneself
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |In seventeen syllables
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Is very diffic
| Tony Finch
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
John Dean
>... and fuck wasn't in a single
> English language dictionary from 1795 to 1965.
Though, having excluded it when they edited the 'F' entries in the
1890s, the OED editors included 'windfucker' for the kestrel when they
got to 'W' in the 1920s (Sheidlower again)
--
John Dean
Oxford
Robert Bannister
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>
>>Got to agree with that, and, as for 'pussy', when is it ever used as a
>>swear word?
>
>
> Whenever it's used for the female genitalia; i.e., all the time.
I don't consider that swearing. Possibly using non-medical terms is
obscene, but swearing is cursing is abusing someone, and that does not
seem to be the case here.
>
>
>>If it is used (perhaps to mean 'wuss' or 'wimp'), most
>>people would associate it with the 'pussy cat' meaning.
>
>
> I must be in the minority. I associate it with the
> "female" meaning, but it is connotatively different
> from "cunt" when used as a personal epithet. To me,
> "pussy" is a weak, effeminate male (when it's not the
> female thing or the feline thing), by association with
> the "female" meaning of the term.
I don't know whether you're in the minority or not, but 'pussy cat' was,
I think, used to describe a wimpish person long before the vulva meaning
came in. No doubt, this will inspire someone to post in long sections
from various dictionaries that will, as usual, not agree with each other.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
Me too.
(A Ring-a-rang roo,
Pray, what is that?
It's soft and furry
Like a pussy cat...)
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Robert Bannister <rob...@it.net.au> writes:
>
>
>>Got to agree with that, and, as for 'pussy', when is it ever used as
>>a swear word? If it is used (perhaps to mean 'wuss' or 'wimp'),
>
>
> Which is an interesting way to put it, since, at least in the US, the
> bulk of the popularity of the word "wuss" (if not the coinage) can
> probably be traced to the movie _Fast Times at Ridgemont High_, which
> containst the explanatory line:
>
> DAMONE
> You... are a wuss. Part wimp. Part
> pussy.
>
V-e-r-y inter-resting. I didn't see that film, but it's a likely
explanation.
--
Rob Bannister
Michael West
> I don't know whether you're in the minority or not, but 'pussy cat' was,
> I think, used to describe a wimpish person long before the vulva meaning
> came in.
I don't doubt that, but neither do I doubt that
when our drill sergeant called us a bunch of
pussies, he was not thinking of the four-footed
kind.
Raymond S. Wise
news:40D8D249...@Verizon.net...
You haven't been paying attention to Comedy Central then, Bob. They have
shown *South Park: Bigger Longer & Uncut*[1] several times, late at night on
holidays, the last time on the night before Father's Day. It is, indeed,
shown uncut, includes the song "Shut Your Fucking Face, Uncle Fucker," and
shows Saddam Hussein in hell, brandishing a dildo which looks very much like
a real penis.
Recently, I read that the head of the FCC wishes to extend to cable TV the
rules of broadcast TV. I have heard no legal rationale which would permit
them to do so. (For those who may not be aware of it, the legal rationale
for the FCC censoring the content of broadcast radio and television is that
the public owns the airwaves.)
"SP: BL&U" makes a very strong anti-censorship statement. Perhaps this could
protect them from any prosecution even if the federal government were to
somehow get the ability to censor cable TV. By the way, for those of you who
like musicals, it is, in my opinion, the best musical to be filmed in many
years.
Note:
[1] This version of the title, with no comma, appears as the main version in
the Internet Movie Database. The version with a comma after the word
"Bigger" appears as a variant.
Raymond S. Wise
news:cbaogf$ep4$3...@enyo.uwa.edu.au...
MWCD11 dates it to 1976 and has for the etymology "origin unknown."
AHD4 has "Probably blend of _wimp_ _pussy_1."
The *Encarta World English Dictionary,* North American ed., Internet
version, has "Late 20th century. Origin unknown." The word did not trigger
the "Language Advisory" page, as does the entry for the vulgar senses of the
word "pussy."
Areff
I assume erk is not suggesting that _Fast Times_ might be the origin, just
a popularizer. That might be true of "wuss" specifically; I don't know.
But I recall that the earlier term "wussy" was used frequently when I was
in elementary school in the 1970s -- I think I can memory-trace it to 1976
or 1977.
--
Donna Richoux
We've had this exact conversation in 2001, with the "Fast Times" quote
and various older dates and explanations of "wuss". Try searching the
archives for "Subject: Re: What is wusses?".
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
John Dean
> Michael West wrote:
>
> I don't know whether you're in the minority or not, but 'pussy cat'
> was, I think, used to describe a wimpish person long before the vulva
> meaning came in. No doubt, this will inspire someone to post in long
> sections from various dictionaries that will, as usual, not agree
> with each other.
It may be just BrE but I haven't heard 'pussycat' for a wimp. I hear it
only as a description of a nice, well-mannered, obliging person.
"Be a pussycat and make me a cocktail"
"He may shout a lot but deep down he's a pussycat"
--
John Dean
Oxford
Jonathan Miller
news:oOOdnfA2z6o...@gbronline.com...
I Am Not A Lawyer, but I believe that Comedy Central is pay cable.
</+advertising version> It's part of the $24.99 big package of Extended
Cable rather than the $8.99 Basic Cable that covers the broadcast stations.
Then there's . . . and individual channels and pay-per-view and . . . .
</-advertising version>
Comedy Central isn't available broadcast (of that I am certain, but you can
hook up an antenna and see for yourself). It's cable. And I'll bet it
isn't free. You can check your cable agreement (and probably the master
agreement with your locality), but most likely cable is required to offer
broadcast stations and a few community access stations for a very modest
sum, somewhere in the $8 to $12 range (incredible as it seems). They hope
no one actually accepts this. They want you to take the package that has a
higher cost (unregulated) that includes several other channels and ESPN or
an even higher priced one that includes one or more premium channels
(usually the Disney Channel and maybe Showtime) and so forth. There may be
even more tiers. HBO has enough pricing power to continue to stand alone,
but almost all the other channels get folded into some package.
I guess the FCC's take (back to Liebs's comment that I snipped) is that
everyone gets cable anyway so they have jurisdiction to do whatever they
damn well please. It's to protect the children. Don't you want to protect
the children? Think of the children.
I can't believe you don't want to protect the children. Shame on you.
Jon "It's a good thing Americans don't do irony" Miller
Jonathan Miller
news:WpudnYsddfC...@comcast.com...
> I guess the FCC's take (back to Liebs's comment that I snipped) is that
Misattribution. It was Raymond Wise. Sorry.
Jon Miller
Jonathan Miller
news:91f41fac.04061...@posting.google.com...
> University of Colorado President Betsy Hoffman testified that
> "cunt" could be used as a "term of endearment." After taking a
> lot of flak for her testimony, she later said, "I should have
> said, 'Read Chaucer's *The Miller's Tale*."
>
> Now, shouldn't a university president understand that what
> Chaucer wrote is not particularly relevant when she's being
> deposed about contemporary American English usage? [The topic
> was football players calling a female student a cunt.]
>
> I've reread Chaucer's Miller's tale, and I failed to find "cunt."
> The closest I found was a reference to "hir hole" and "He felte a
> thyng al rough and long yherd," but "hole" wasn't being used as a
> term of endearment. So, have I missed it, or did she pick the
> wrong tale?
In all the discussion, I find it interesting that no one mentioned _Lady
Chatterly_. Although it has the same arguments about Americanism and
contemporaneity, at least it's closer (and at least the word is mentioned
and discussed).
Jon Miller
Theodore Heise
Raymond S. Wise <mplsra...@gbronline.com> wrote:
> "Robert Bannister" <rob...@it.net.au> wrote in message
> news:cbaogf$ep4$3...@enyo.uwa.edu.au...
>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>
>> > Which is an interesting way to put it, since, at least in the US, the
>> > bulk of the popularity of the word "wuss" (if not the coinage) can
>> > probably be traced to the movie _Fast Times at Ridgemont High_,
>
>
> AHD4 has "Probably blend of _wimp_ _pussy_1."
I can tell you my junior high classmates and I (in Nebraska) were
using wuss and wussy as early as 1968.
--
Theodore Heise <th...@heise.nu> Bloomington, IN, USA
Jesse Sheidlower
John Dean <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>Jesse Sheidlower's 'The F-Word' records several pre-war uses by American
>authors - Dos Passos in 29-30 in '42nd Parallel' - "Jack, it was a
>fucking shame" and Hemingway in 1937 'To Have and Have Not' - "A man
>alone ain't got no bloody fucking chance".
>Sheidlower quotes the first open publication of the F-word in the USA as
>1926, in a diary of WW1.
Sheidlower has since learned more. I believe that the 1926 example is
still the first open _literary_ publication of the word--or, I should
say, the 1926 example is still the earliest such in my knowledge--but
colleagues have since pointed out that there are substantially earlier
examples in published legal sources. There are a variety of 19th century
examples of _fuck_ and _motherfucking_ in published U.S. court cases.
Jesse Sheidlower
OED
steve
(in article <cbc1o7$lsr$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>):
i have heard it used to describe certain managers, as in
"Don't worry he is just a big pussy cat", in reference to their "hard " over
bearing management style.
Skitt
> John Dean wrote:
>>> I don't know whether you're in the minority or not, but 'pussy cat'
>>> was, I think, used to describe a wimpish person long before the
>>> vulva meaning came in. No doubt, this will inspire someone to post
>>> in long sections from various dictionaries that will, as usual, not
>>> agree with each other.
>>
>> It may be just BrE but I haven't heard 'pussycat' for a wimp. I hear
>> it only as a description of a nice, well-mannered, obliging person.
>> "Be a pussycat and make me a cocktail"
>> "He may shout a lot but deep down he's a pussycat"
>
> i have heard it used to describe certain managers, as in
> "Don't worry he is just a big pussy cat", in reference to their "hard
> " over bearing management style.
That would be "pussycat", overbearing or not.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
Robert Bannister
Ah! The mind of a drill sergeant. The mind boggles.
Psychiatrist: What is the first thing you think of when you look at
this? [Holds up meaningless ink blot]
Patient: Sex.
Psychiatrist: And this?
Patient: Sex.
[continued for some time]
Psychiatrist: But why do all these things make you think of sex?
Patient: I think about sex all the time.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
I'm familiar with both those usages. I guess it depends on the situation
and the tone of voice. The second example certainly means soft-hearted,
and it's not far from that to just meaning soft.
Why does Netscape's spelling checker hate "usages"?
--
Rob Bannister
John Dean
... and continues:
Psychiatrist: Don't you think that's a little unhealthy?
Patient: Well, Jeeze, you're the one with all the dirty pictures.
--
John Dean
Oxford
R H Draney
>
>Michael West wrote:
>
>> I don't doubt that, but neither do I doubt that
>> when our drill sergeant called us a bunch of
>> pussies, he was not thinking of the four-footed
>> kind.
>
>Ah! The mind of a drill sergeant. The mind boggles.
Consider the possible interpretations of the word "drill"...the boggling
subsides somewhat....r
Michael West
> Ah! The mind of a drill sergeant. The mind boggles.
> Psychiatrist: What is the first thing you think of when you look at
> this? [Holds up meaningless ink blot]
> Patient: Sex.
> Psychiatrist: And this?
> Patient: Sex.
> [continued for some time]
> Psychiatrist: But why do all these things make you think of sex?
> Patient: I think about sex all the time.
In the version I heard:
> Psychiatrist: You seem to be obsessed with sex?
> Patient: Me!? You're the one with all the dirty pictures!
Michael West
> Why does Netscape's spelling checker hate "usages"?
I think of "usage" as a mass noun. Maybe it does too.
I'd choose "uses" for the plural.
Skitt
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>> Why does Netscape's spelling checker hate "usages"?
>
> I think of "usage" as a mass noun. Maybe it does too.
> I'd choose "uses" for the plural.
Naah, different meanings. "Usages" is fine. I just requested the OE
spelling checker to look it over, and it didn't object to the plural.
Richard Bollard
wrote:
>That only led to "And prively he caughte hire by the queynte"
>where "queynte" is not a term of endearment. So it looks like the
>university president was trying to cover her fanny to no avail.
>
Oh dear. Was that intended?
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra, Australia
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Sheidlower has since learned more. I believe that the 1926 example is
> still the first open _literary_ publication of the word--or, I should
> say, the 1926 example is still the earliest such in my knowledge--
Searching the Making of America archive shows how you have to be
careful. There are a lot of hits from Samuel Drake's _Annals of
Witchcraft in New England_, for example. Things like
And I went neer her Bedfide, and I heard a ftrainge Kind of Noyfe,
which was like a Wheelpe fucking of the Dam, or, Kettins fucking,
which made me to thinke whether any of the Catts had layd any of
there Kittins vpon the Syde of the Bed, or wheather it might be
fome ftrainge Kind of Hiffing within her. [sic to all, including
the "there"]
The OCR obviously needs to be adjusted for old typography
conventions.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |English grammar is not taught in
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |primary or secondary schools in the
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |United States. Sometimes some
|mythology is taught under that
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |rubric, but luckily it's usually
(650)857-7572 |ignored, except by the credulous.
| John Lawler
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Alec McKenzie
Psychiatrist: Are you troubled by improper thoughts?
Patient: Why, no . . . in fact I rather enjoy them!
--
Alec McKenzie
mcke...@despammed.com
Robert Bannister
Not a boring answer.
--
Rob Bannister
R H Draney
>
>R H Draney wrote:
>
>> Robert Bannister filted:
>>
>>
>> Consider the possible interpretations of the word "drill"...the boggling
>> subsides somewhat....r
>>
>Not a boring answer.
Nor one that augers well....r
Michael West
Drill sergeants are known for being a bit twisted.
--
Michael West
Skitt
They also tend to snap.