Pronunciation of the "a" in "scallops"

[rose...@zodiac.rutgers.edu]

I pronounce "scallops" with the first vowel sounding like the "a" in
"hat", i.e. to rhyme with "gallops". I've heard many people pronounce
it with the first vowel sounding like the "a" in the American pronuncia-
tion of "what", thus rhyming it with "dollops". Question: how are the
two pronunciations distributed among the various English dialects?
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Daniel M. Rosenblum, Assistant Professor, Quantitative Studies Area,
Graduate School of Management, Rutgers University (Newark)

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[Peter Moylan]

In article <1263.2...@zodiac.rutgers.edu>,

rose...@zodiac.rutgers.edu writes:
> I pronounce "scallops" with the first vowel sounding like the "a" in
> "hat", i.e. to rhyme with "gallops". I've heard many people pronounce
> it with the first vowel sounding like the "a" in the American pronuncia-
> tion of "what", thus rhyming it with "dollops". Question: how are the
> two pronunciations distributed among the various English dialects?

In Australia it's pronounced "scollops", and I've even seen it
spelt that way. The meaning of the word varies from state to
state, by the way. In some areas a "scallop" is a concoction
of potato and batter, so that if you want the seafood version you
have to ask for "Tasmanian scallops"

Peter

[Tim ARNOLD]

rose...@zodiac.rutgers.edu writes:

>I pronounce "scallops" with the first vowel sounding like the "a" in
>"hat", i.e. to rhyme with "gallops". I've heard many people pronounce
>it with the first vowel sounding like the "a" in the American pronuncia-
>tion of "what", thus rhyming it with "dollops". Question: how are the
>two pronunciations distributed among the various English dialects?

In Australia the more usual (and accepted) pronunciation is the latter.
You do here the first one occaisionally.

[Dian De Sha]

In article <1991Aug28...@wombat.newcastle.edu.au> ee...@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan) writes:

>state, by the way. In some areas a "scallop" is a concoction
>of potato and batter, so that if you want the seafood version you
>have to ask for "Tasmanian scallops"

Isn't the "scallop" the name of the fish dish, and "scalloped"
the adjective applied to some food (potatoes) that are cooked
in milk and flour? On this basis, I suppose it's possible to
scallop scallops, if you wanted to cook them that way.

Dian De Sha

[Gordon Banks]

I pronounce it "scollops". I'm from New Mexico.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks N3JXP | "When in danger, or in doubt
g...@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | Run in circles, scream and shout" --Heinlein
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[G Toal]

In article <1263.2...@zodiac.rutgers.edu> ROSE...@DRACO.RUTGERS.EDU writes:
:I pronounce "scallops" with the first vowel sounding like the "a" in

:"hat", i.e. to rhyme with "gallops". I've heard many people pronounce
:it with the first vowel sounding like the "a" in the American pronuncia-
:tion of "what", thus rhyming it with "dollops". Question: how are the
:two pronunciations distributed among the various English dialects?

Two *spelling*s, not pronunciations. They are two versions of the
same word; scallops and scollops. take your pick.

G

[Moss Madden]

In England the word scallops is always pronounced with an 'o' sound,
unless in a regional accent, when anything might happen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moss Madden
"TO ME, ALL RELIGION IS JANET: JU...@UK.AC.LIVERPOOL
JUST A BUZZING IN THE EARS" INTERNET ETC: JU...@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK
A J P TAYLOR (1990) UUCP: ...!MCVAX!UKC!LIVERPOOL.AC.UK!JU39
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moss Madden
"TO ME, ALL RELIGION IS JANET: JU...@UK.AC.LIVERPOOL
JUST A BUZZING IN THE EARS" INTERNET ETC: JU...@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK
A J P TAYLOR (1990) UUCP: ...!MCVAX!UKC!LIVERPOOL.AC.UK!JU39

[the Crisco Kid]

In article <12...@castle.ed.ac.uk> gt...@castle.ed.ac.uk (G Toal) writes:
>Two *spelling*s, not pronunciations. They are two versions of the
>same word; scallops and scollops. take your pick.

Not as simple as that: where I grew up, just outside York, the word was
spelt scallops, and pronounced either "scOllops" (referring to battered
fried potato slices) or "scAllops" (referring to bivalve shellfish).

Kay
--
6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
Kay Dekker, Dept of Industrial Design, Coventry Poly, Coventry UK
37 Old Winnings Road, Keresley Village, Coventry |B0 f- t+ g++ k++! s+ e r p!
Phone: +44 203 838668 (work) +44 203 337865 (home) |

[L J Wilson]

In article <91246.12...@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> JU...@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (Moss Madden) writes:

>In England the word scallops is always pronounced with an 'o' sound,
>unless in a regional accent, when anything might happen

Hmm, I am from Scotland, I have never heard them called 'scollops', tis
always scallops, with a nice 'a' as in hat.

babybear

--
baby...@uk.ac.edinburgh
l...@uk.ac.aber.cs

[the Crisco Kid]

In article <91246.12...@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> JU...@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (Moss Madden) writes:

>In England the word scallops is always pronounced with an 'o' sound,
>unless in a regional accent, when anything might happen

Further to my previous post ["scallops" pronounced either "scOllops" or
"scAllops", depending on whether discussing fried potato or shellfish],
the same phenomenon I described in York also (according to my friend
Andrew) applies in mid-Wales.

Moss, what do you mean by "regional accent"? Where is not "regional"?
Do you mean "RP or MRP speakers always pronounce..."? What's your
evidence for the "always"?

Not flaming, just looking for evidence.

[J Wexler]

I don't care whether you pronounce them scallops or scollops; I can
understand both, and I will say either. I want to know what the word
means to you. To me, a scallop is what the French call "coquille St
Jacques", the emblem of Saint James: a large bivalve mollusc, with
ridges on the shell radiating from the hinge, so that the shell has a
castellated edge. "Scalloped" describes an edge of anything (typically
a pie-crust) which is cut or marked in a similar manner. Evidently
other people mean different things - e.g., a potato dish of some sort,
or (what I was served in a restaurant in San Francisco) rather tasty
nuggets of some fish with a faintly molluscan texture. Without
backtracking through this thread, I can't be certain, but I think other
meanings have been mentioned.

Is our culinary vocabulary more vague and variable than other parts of
the language? Scallop is by no means the only example. How about pepper/
pimento/capsicum/chilli? Or the jam/jelly confusion that ran for WEEKS
recently?

John Wexler

[Jim Grundy]

In article <B6#?^Z{@cck.cov.ac.uk>, idx...@cck.cov.ac.uk (the Crisco

Kid) writes:
|> In article <91246.12...@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> JU...@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK
(Moss Madden) writes:
|> >In England the word scallops is always pronounced with an 'o' sound,
|> >unless in a regional accent, when anything might happen

The same is also true in Australia.
(execpt I don't think there is any regional variation).

Jim

[Bayla Singer]

In article <12...@castle.ed.ac.uk> erc...@castle.ed.ac.uk (J Wexler) writes:
[ellipses (...) denote deletions]

... I want to know what the word
>means to you. To me, a scallop is ... a large bivalve mollusc, with

>ridges on the shell radiating from the hinge, so that the shell has a
>castellated edge. "Scalloped" describes an edge of anything (typically
>a pie-crust) which is cut or marked in a similar manner. Evidently
>other people mean different things - e.g., a potato dish of some sort,
>or (what I was served in a restaurant in San Francisco) rather tasty

>nuggets of some fish with a faintly molluscan texture...

The molluscan scallops, when divested of their lovely shells, have a
cylindrical or discoid shape. "Scalloped" edges look like adjacent
semicircles: uuuuu is the closest my keyboard can reproduce it. As for
culinary applications: lacking the genuine St Jacques article, "scallops"
have been cut out of fish and other seafood. The "scallops" J
Wexler encountered in San Francisco [a town otherwise noted for its
excellent food] must have been of this type. The term has been extended
to discoid shapes of other food -- veal scallops come to mind. Scallopped
potatos are discoid potatoes in a [yucky] cream sauce; then again, *chacun
a son gout* must originally have applied to food, not so?

>Is our culinary vocabulary more vague and variable than other parts of
>the language? Scallop is by no means the only example. How about pepper/
>pimento/capsicum/chilli? Or the jam/jelly confusion that ran for WEEKS
>recently?

You betcha!

--------ba...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu

[William F Phillips]

In article <12...@castle.ed.ac.uk> erc...@castle.ed.ac.uk (J Wexler) writes:

:or (what I was served in a restaurant in San Francisco) rather tasty

:nuggets of some fish with a faintly molluscan texture.

Probably shark -- it's often used for this purpose.

Does anyone know the diff between bay scallops and sea scallops (and any
other kind of scallops, for that matter).

For the record: scAllops

...but I'm a refugee from New York...

--
___ ___ _ | Bill Phillips,
(/__) . /) /) (/__) /_ . /) /) . _ _ | Friend Of A Friend
/__) (__(__(___ / / )_(__(__(__(_ /_)_/_)_ |
( ( ( | w...@world.std.com

[Dian De Sha]

In article <1991Sep5.0...@latcs1.lat.oz.au> ja...@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Jane Philcox) writes:

>In article <1991Aug28.1...@cco.caltech.edu> di...@cs.caltech.edu (Dian De Sha) writes:
>>
>>Isn't the "scallop" the name of the fish dish, and "scalloped"
>>the adjective applied to some food (potatoes) that are cooked
>>in milk and flour? On this basis, I suppose it's possible to
>>scallop scallops, if you wanted to cook them that way.
>

>Er, yes and no. "Scallop" is the name of the shellfish, and, by extension,
>the name of dishes containing scallops. And yes, you could scallop scallops,
>although that use of the word as a verb is probably only familiar to those
>who read English recipe books, it's not really used here. We'd probably say
>"fried in batter" instead. But what Peter was saying was that in a restricted
>portion of Australia (New South Wales) scalloped potatoes are known as
>"scallops," and heaven help you if you want the shellfish, and ask for them!
>Btw, if you want scalloped potatoes in Victoria, you ask for "potato cakes."

For clarification, scalloped potatoes are baked in a sloppy white sauce
of milk and flour (with or without cheese, etc) that gradually reduces
to a drier baked dish. (It's a little like having potatoes served in
their own "gravy.") You can also scallop corn this way.

What I suspect is that the original "scalloped potatoes" dish was named
for the shape of the potatoes slices (most recipes call for layering
the slices, which creates the scalloped-edge effect referred to in an
earlier posting); the recipe was popular, and then the adjective was
engineered into a verb that meant "to bake in milk and flour."

___________
Dian De Sha

[am...@vax.oxford.ac.uk]

In article <91246.12...@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK>, JU...@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (Moss Madden) writes:
> In England the word scallops is always pronounced with an 'o' sound,
> unless in a regional accent, when anything might happen
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ooooooooooh. What brand of spoken English isn't regional then?

Ian. A Scot, damn it.

[Jane Philcox]

In article <1991Aug28.1...@cco.caltech.edu> di...@cs.caltech.edu (Dian De Sha) writes:

Er, yes and no. "Scallop" is the name of the shellfish, and, by extension,

the name of dishes containing scallops. And yes, you could scallop scallops,
although that use of the word as a verb is probably only familiar to those
who read English recipe books, it's not really used here. We'd probably say
"fried in batter" instead. But what Peter was saying was that in a restricted
portion of Australia (New South Wales) scalloped potatoes are known as
"scallops," and heaven help you if you want the shellfish, and ask for them!
Btw, if you want scalloped potatoes in Victoria, you ask for "potato cakes."

Regards, Jane.
--

What appears to be a sloppy or meaningless use of words may well be a
completely correct use of words to express sloppy or meaningless ideas
Anonymous Diplomat

[Kathleen Much]

In article <1263.2...@zodiac.rutgers.edu> ROSE...@DRACO.RUTGERS.EDU writes:

>I pronounce "scallops" with the first vowel sounding like the "a" in
>"hat", i.e. to rhyme with "gallops". I've heard many people pronounce
>it with the first vowel sounding like the "a" in the American pronuncia-
>tion of "what", thus rhyming it with "dollops". Question: how are the
>two pronunciations distributed among the various English dialects?

In east Texas, it's scOllops. Since I've been in the San Francisco
area, I've heard scAllops quite a bit. Bay scallops are the little
tiny ones about a half-inch across. Regular (ocean) scallops are one
to two inches across. There was a scandal a while back about white
fish cut with small biscuit cutters to look like scallops and sold for
the same high price; it probably still happens from time to time. If
the scallops are too uniform in size, don't buy them in your fish
market.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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CASBS, 202 Junipero Serra Blvd. |Phone: (415) 321-2052
Stanford, CA 94305 |Fax: (415) 321-1192

[Peter Moylan]

In article <12...@castle.ed.ac.uk>, erc...@castle.ed.ac.uk (J Wexler) writes:
>
> Is our culinary vocabulary more vague and variable than other parts of
> the language? Scallop is by no means the only example. How about pepper/
> pimento/capsicum/chilli? Or the jam/jelly confusion that ran for WEEKS
> recently?
>

This is slightly off the subject, but ...

I've seen many restaurants which have escargots on the menu. I've
never seen one that offers snails. (And I'm pretty sure that
people wouldn't eat them if they were on the menu.)

Peter

[gordon e. banks]

In article <12...@castle.ed.ac.uk> erc...@castle.ed.ac.uk (J Wexler) writes:
>
>

>Is our culinary vocabulary more vague and variable than other parts of
>the language? Scallop is by no means the only example. How about pepper/
>pimento/capsicum/chilli? Or the jam/jelly confusion that ran for WEEKS
>recently?
>

The chile (chee'-lay) is a plant native to the Americas. Texans have corrupted
the spanish word (probably originally from Aztec) to chilli (chilly),
and applied the word to a stew which uses dried red chile as a seasoning.
(The best chile stew is made with the fresh green chiles.) Bell peppers and
pimentos (not black pepper, another thing entirely) are from plants in
the same family, as is the tomato.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

In article <1991Sep6...@wombat.newcastle.edu.au> ee...@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan) writes:
> I've seen many restaurants which have escargots on the menu. I've
> never seen one that offers snails. (And I'm pretty sure that
> people wouldn't eat them if they were on the menu.)

Similarly, they advertise "squab" but not "pigeon", "calamari" but not
"squid". And I know people who love "unagi" and "nori" but would balk
at ordering "eel" or "kelp" (or worse "seaweed").

To forestall (or possibly ignite) discussion, the use of foreign words
as euphemisms for uncommon foods is different from the traditional use
of two different words in English to represent the animal and the food
(cow/beef, pig/pork, deer/venison, sheep/mutton) which stems from the
time when the aristocracy (those who could afford to eat them) spoke
French and the peasantry (those who encountered them on the hoof)
spoke English.

Evan Kirshenbaum
HP Laboratories
3500 Deer Creek Road, Building 26U
Palo Alto, CA 94304

kirsh...@hplabs.hp.com
(415)857-7572

[Ron Newman]

In article <1991Sep6...@wombat.newcastle.edu.au>, ee...@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan) writes:

|> I've seen many restaurants which have escargots on the menu. I've
|> never seen one that offers snails. (And I'm pretty sure that
|> people wouldn't eat them if they were on the menu.)

Around Boston, "Calamari" is eagerly eaten at raucous
North End "religious festivals" and at fancy restaurants
like The Daily Catch. I suspect "Squid" wouldn't sell as well.

But "Calamari" actually comes from a Latin and Greek word for "pen".
Why? Because it refers to an ink-like substance that the squid
secretes. Not the most appetizing image...

--
Ron Newman rne...@bbn.com

[G Toal]

In article <KIRSHENBAUM....@hplerk.hpl.hp.com> kirsh...@hplabs.hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum) writes:
>Similarly, they advertise "squab" but not "pigeon", "calamari" but not
>"squid". And I know people who love "unagi" and "nori" but would balk
>at ordering "eel" or "kelp" (or worse "seaweed").

Interesting; over here eels are (relatively) common (especially
here in London where they like them jellied), and I've never seen
seaweed called anything else in a Chinese restaurant.

The interesting bit though, is that the 'seaweed' served here is
usually just fried cabbage :-)

G

[G Toal]

In article <kcfecg...@news.bbn.com> rne...@bbn.com (Ron Newman) writes:
>Around Boston, "Calamari" is eagerly eaten at raucous
>North End "religious festivals" and at fancy restaurants
>like The Daily Catch. I suspect "Squid" wouldn't sell as well.

And we Brits call a squid a squid.

But then, this is the country which calls a spade a bloody shovel.

G

[J Wexler]

In article <1991Sep6.0...@casbs.Stanford.EDU> kath...@casbs.Stanford.EDU (Kathleen Much) writes:
>Bay scallops are the little
>tiny ones about a half-inch across. Regular (ocean) scallops are one
>to two inches across.

Neither of these sounds like the scallop that I know, which is four or
five inches across. But I know better than to expect "scallop" to mean
the same thing in different places, so when I ordered scallops in SF I
asked first. They told me that it was not shellfish - they couldn't say
clearly what fish it really was - but I decided to try it anyway, out of
interest. It was good to eat. I did not feel ripped off in any way.

>There was a scandal a while back about white
>fish cut with small biscuit cutters to look like scallops and sold for
>the same high price; it probably still happens from time to time. If
>the scallops are too uniform in size, don't buy them in your fish
>market.

This would not work with Coquilles St Jacques scallops, since they have
a characteristic lump of orange flesh as well as some whiteish meat.

I wonder why the name "scallop" is so variable in its use in different
places, whereas (as far as I know) "mussel" means more or less the same
thing everywhere, and so does "oyster".

John Wexler

[J Wexler]

In article <11...@pitt.UUCP> g...@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks) writes:
>The chile (chee'-lay) is a plant native to the Americas. Texans have corrupted
>the spanish word (probably originally from Aztec) to chilli (chilly),
>and applied the word to a stew which uses dried red chile as a seasoning.
>(The best chile stew is made with the fresh green chiles.)

Which reminds me of what I believe must be the earliest
recorded recipe for chilli con carne. Bernal Diaz, in the Conquest of
New Spain, describing the "siege" of Mexico city, tells how the
defenders would tear the hearts out of huge (OK, exagerated) numbers of
captured Spaniards in hideous sacrificial ceremonies. During one lull,
they are heard calling out from their temples to taunt the invaders:
"the chillis and tomatoes are boiling in the pot, ready to receive your flesh."
Unfortunately, Diaz was reporting under extremely difficult conditions,
so he didn't get the bit about beans, onions and cumin.
John Wexler

[walter...@gmail.com]

go fuck yourself.

[sheila...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, August 28, 1991 at 12:24:42 AM UTC+10, rose...@zodiac.rutgers.edu wrote:
> I pronounce "scallops" with the first vowel sounding like the "a" in
> "hat", i.e. to rhyme with "gallops". I've heard many people pronounce
> it with the first vowel sounding like the "a" in the American pronuncia-
> tion of "what", thus rhyming it with "dollops". Question: how are the
> two pronunciations distributed among the various English dialects?

In Australia, it's pronounced scollops, not scallops.

Have noticed on American cooking shows they all pronounce it scallops, which is strange when you first hear it.

But that's not the only word that confuses me - "cilantro, chi-POTE-le, erbs, arugala, BAYzil, scownes, parmaJAN cheese, carmelised" - it's like they're speaking English, but you don't know what the hell they're saying!

Jelly on toast would not be great, until you realise their jelly is actually jam. And here, biscuits and cookies are exactly the same thing.

So there ya go.

[sheila...@gmail.com]

What's up your arse? A SCOLLOP?

[mrucb...@att.net]

Is this a 25th anniversary observation? Or did it take that long to work up
your enthusiasm? Jelly is jelly and jam is jam. And don't blame American
chefs for coming somewhat close in saying Spanish-derived words. How do you
pronounce Chipotle? or cilantro?

[Charles Bishop]

In article <e9d923fb-8cec-4b3b...@googlegroups.com>,

Is this crossposted or are there idiots lurking?

--
charles, last post, I promise

[Robert Bannister]

Having never tried to say them in public, I say "shi-pot-leh" and
"coriander leaves".

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Sep-11 06:11, Charles Bishop wrote:
> In article <e9d923fb-8cec-4b3b...@googlegroups.com>,
> sheila...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 at 5:06:47 PM UTC+11, walter...@gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, August 29, 1991 3:05:23 PM UTC-4, Gordon Banks wrote:
>>>> I pronounce it "scollops". I'm from New Mexico.

>>> go fuck yourself.
>>
>> What's up your arse? A SCOLLOP?
>
> Is this crossposted or are there idiots lurking?

No, it's just that she can't decide whether she's replying to the 1991
thread or to the dickhead who rescued it from the dead in 2014.

They're both Google Groups users, so don't have a clear idea of the date.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Jack Campin]

>> don't blame American chefs for coming somewhat close in saying
>> Spanish-derived words. How do you pronounce Chipotle? or cilantro?
> Having never tried to say them in public, I say "shi-pot-leh" and
> "coriander leaves".

"Urfa pepper" (or "Urfa biber" or "isot") and "dhaniya", since
I go into Middle Eastern and Indian food shops a lot and Latin
American ones hardly at all.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Peter T. Daniels]

No, they're not.

Their postings may have come through GG, but they are not GG users.

[Jerry Friedman]

On 9/10/16 6:53 PM, Jack Campin wrote:
>>> don't blame American chefs for coming somewhat close in saying
>>> Spanish-derived words. How do you pronounce Chipotle? or cilantro?
>> Having never tried to say them in public, I say "shi-pot-leh" and
>> "coriander leaves".
>
> "Urfa pepper" (or "Urfa biber" or "isot") and "dhaniya", since
> I go into Middle Eastern and Indian food shops a lot and Latin
> American ones hardly at all.

From what I read, urfa peppers are very different from chipotles.
Chipotles are very hot, smoked, and usually sold whole, though I'm sure
you can get them crushed.

--
Jerry Friedman
"No Trump" bridge-themed political shirts: cafepress.com/jerrysdesigns
Bumper stickers ditto: cafepress/jerrysstickers

[RH Draney]

On 9/10/2016 10:54 AM, mrucb...@att.net wrote:
>
> Is this a 25th anniversary observation? Or did it take that long to work up
> your enthusiasm? Jelly is jelly and jam is jam. And don't blame American
> chefs for coming somewhat close in saying Spanish-derived words. How do you
> pronounce Chipotle? or cilantro?

Not like this, at any rate:

https://youtu.be/sRv9_Q3HOmg

(Thirteen years on, I notice a lot of people still saying
"chi-pole-tay")....r

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

That looks like a Nahuatl word, though I suppose it came to English via
Spanish. I've no idea how a Nahuatl speaker would say it, and probably
it doesn't have a final e in Nahuatl.

> or cilantro?

If you just treat that as an English word your won't be too far from a
Spanish pronunciation.
--
athel

[Jack Campin]

>>>> How do you pronounce Chipotle? or cilantro?
>>> Having never tried to say them in public, I say "shi-pot-leh" and
>>> "coriander leaves".
>> "Urfa pepper" (or "Urfa biber" or "isot") and "dhaniya", since
>> I go into Middle Eastern and Indian food shops a lot and Latin
>> American ones hardly at all.
> From what I read, urfa peppers are very different from chipotles.
> Chipotles are very hot, smoked, and usually sold whole, though I'm
> sure you can get them crushed.

I've had them under both names and I can't tell the difference.
Urfa peppers are smoked and always sold flaked in the UK though
I've seen them whole in Turkey.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 1:25:01 PM UTC-4, Jack Campin wrote:

> >>>> How do you pronounce Chipotle? or cilantro?
> >>> Having never tried to say them in public, I say "shi-pot-leh" and
> >>> "coriander leaves".
> >> "Urfa pepper" (or "Urfa biber" or "isot") and "dhaniya", since
> >> I go into Middle Eastern and Indian food shops a lot and Latin
> >> American ones hardly at all.
> > From what I read, urfa peppers are very different from chipotles.
> > Chipotles are very hot, smoked, and usually sold whole, though I'm
> > sure you can get them crushed.
>
> I've had them under both names and I can't tell the difference.
> Urfa peppers are smoked and always sold flaked in the UK though
> I've seen them whole in Turkey.

Urfa is the modern Turkish(?) name of the ancient city of Edessa, capital of
the early Christian kingdom of Osrhoëne.

[Robert Bannister]

On 11/09/2016 11:44 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 9/10/16 6:53 PM, Jack Campin wrote:
>>>> don't blame American chefs for coming somewhat close in saying
>>>> Spanish-derived words. How do you pronounce Chipotle? or cilantro?
>>> Having never tried to say them in public, I say "shi-pot-leh" and
>>> "coriander leaves".
>>
>> "Urfa pepper" (or "Urfa biber" or "isot") and "dhaniya", since
>> I go into Middle Eastern and Indian food shops a lot and Latin
>> American ones hardly at all.
>
> From what I read, urfa peppers are very different from chipotles.
> Chipotles are very hot, smoked, and usually sold whole, though I'm sure
> you can get them crushed.
>

The chipotle sauce (which is the only way I've seen the word used so far
in this country) is far from what I would call hot. Still, the raw
jalopeños on sale here are pretty mild too compared with Thai chillies.

[Robert Bannister]

If it were spelt "chipotl", we might have had a clue.

[Jack Campin]

>>>>>> How do you pronounce Chipotle? [...]
>>>> "Urfa pepper" [...]

> Urfa is the modern Turkish(?) name of the ancient city of Edessa,
> capital of the early Christian kingdom of Osrhoëne.

Its official name since the 1920s is Sanliurfa, but you never see
that except in government sources.

I doubt if anybody still called it Edessa when peppers first got
there.

I didn't notice them locally - probably one of the many instances
of a foodstuff getting a geographical name that has little to do
with where it originated or is most used. Various kinds of kebab
in Turkey are named after cities, but all of them are available
everywhere.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Cf. "tomato" and "chocolate." Nahuatl caused problems for borrowers.

[bill van]

In article <abd64e8c-2f58-4896...@googlegroups.com>,

Shake and shake that ketchup bottle.
None'll come, and then a lottl.
--
bill

[RH Draney]

On 9/11/2016 10:33 PM, bill van wrote:
>
> Shake and shake that ketchup bottle.
> None'll come, and then a lottl.

Shake it faster, gun the throttle,
Serve it to your axolotl.

....r

[Isabelle C]

Shake it hard, show your mettle,
Pour it down the Popocatépetl.

--
Isabelle

[Peter T. Daniels]

Nash?

No one has trouble with axolotl and atlatl, though.

[CDB]

On 9/11/2016 11:21 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Robert Bannister wrote:

>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> mrucb...@att.net said:

>>>> And don't blame American chefs for coming somewhat close in
>>>> saying Spanish-derived words. How do you pronounce Chipotle?

>>> That looks like a Nahuatl word, though I suppose it came to
>>> English via Spanish. I've no idea how a Nahuatl speaker would say
>>> it, and probably it doesn't have a final e in Nahuatl.

>>>> or cilantro?

>>> If you just treat that as an English word your won't be too far
>>> from a Spanish pronunciation.

>> If it were spelt "chipotl", we might have had a clue.

> Cf. "tomato" and "chocolate." Nahuatl caused problems for borrowers.

Apparently the second element in "chipotle" is "poctli", smoke. That
might explain why it kept its "l", when "tomate" (from "tomatl") and
"chocolate" ("xocolatl") didn't.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chipotle

In Mexico City around 1960, people I talked to pronounced the name
"Chapultepec" (second element "tepetl", hill) to end with a glottal stop.

[Richard Tobin]

In article <e3krv1...@mid.individual.net>,

Athel Cornish-Bowden <athe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>> Is this a 25th anniversary observation? Or did it take that long to work up
>> your enthusiasm? Jelly is jelly and jam is jam. And don't blame American
>> chefs for coming somewhat close in saying Spanish-derived words. How do you
>> pronounce Chipotle?

>That looks like a Nahuatl word, though I suppose it came to English via
>Spanish. I've no idea how a Nahuatl speaker would say it, and probably
>it doesn't have a final e in Nahuatl.

According to the OED it is (through Spanish) from Nahuatl "chil"
(as in chilli) + "poctli" (smoke).

-- Richard

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-09-12 14:58:18 +0200, CDB <belle...@gmail.com> said:

> On 9/11/2016 11:21 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>> mrucb...@att.net said:
>
>>>>> And don't blame American chefs for coming somewhat close in
>>>>> saying Spanish-derived words. How do you pronounce Chipotle?
>
>>>> That looks like a Nahuatl word, though I suppose it came to
>>>> English via Spanish. I've no idea how a Nahuatl speaker would say
>>>> it, and probably it doesn't have a final e in Nahuatl.
>
>>>>> or cilantro?
>
>>>> If you just treat that as an English word your won't be too far
>>>> from a Spanish pronunciation.
>
>>> If it were spelt "chipotl", we might have had a clue.
>
>> Cf. "tomato" and "chocolate." Nahuatl caused problems for borrowers.
>
> Apparently the second element in "chipotle" is "poctli", smoke. That
> might explain why it kept its "l", when "tomate" (from "tomatl") and
> "chocolate" ("xocolatl") didn't.

"Avocado" is a strange one: it looks like a Spanish word, but the
(modern) Spanish for a lawyer is "abogado", and the Spanish for avocado
is "aguacate" (or "palta" in some places, like my home), reasonably
similar to Nahuatl "ahuacatl", meaning "testicle".

>
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chipotle
>
> In Mexico City around 1960, people I talked to pronounced the name
> "Chapultepec" (second element "tepetl", hill) to end with a glottal stop.

--
athel

[Charles Bishop]

In article <e3o0u8...@mid.individual.net>,

Athel Cornish-Bowden <athe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 2016-09-12 14:58:18 +0200, CDB <belle...@gmail.com> said:
>
> > On 9/11/2016 11:21 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> Robert Bannister wrote:
> >>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >>>> mrucb...@att.net said:
> >
> >>>>> And don't blame American chefs for coming somewhat close in
> >>>>> saying Spanish-derived words. How do you pronounce Chipotle?
> >
> >>>> That looks like a Nahuatl word, though I suppose it came to
> >>>> English via Spanish. I've no idea how a Nahuatl speaker would say
> >>>> it, and probably it doesn't have a final e in Nahuatl.
> >
> >>>>> or cilantro?
> >
> >>>> If you just treat that as an English word your won't be too far
> >>>> from a Spanish pronunciation.
> >
> >>> If it were spelt "chipotl", we might have had a clue.
> >
> >> Cf. "tomato" and "chocolate." Nahuatl caused problems for borrowers.
> >
> > Apparently the second element in "chipotle" is "poctli", smoke. That
> > might explain why it kept its "l", when "tomate" (from "tomatl") and
> > "chocolate" ("xocolatl") didn't.
>
> "Avocado" is a strange one: it looks like a Spanish word, but the
> (modern) Spanish for a lawyer is "abogado", and the Spanish for avocado
> is "aguacate" (or "palta" in some places, like my home), reasonably
> similar to Nahuatl "ahuacatl", meaning "testicle".

Where, then did English get "avocado"? In some dim alley, going through
the pockets of another language?

> >
> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chipotle
> >
> > In Mexico City around 1960, people I talked to pronounced the name
> > "Chapultepec" (second element "tepetl", hill) to end with a glottal stop.

--

charles

[Don Freeman]

Makes sense as it is a smoked jalapeno. I tried smoking one once,
couldn't keep it lit.

--
__
(oO) www.cosmoslair.com
/||\ Cthulhu Saves!!! (In case he needs a midnight snack)

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Richard Yates]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 09:22:14 +0200, Isabelle C
<isab...@lewanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:

>Le 12/09/2016 08:47, RH Draney a écrit :
>> On 9/11/2016 10:33 PM, bill van wrote:
>>>
>>> Shake and shake that ketchup bottle.
>>> None'll come, and then a lottl.
>>
>> Shake it faster, gun the throttle,
>> Serve it to your axolotl.
>>

> Shake it hard, show your mettle,
> Pour it down the Popocatépetl.

When it's dry you've won the battle,
Toss it with your best atlatl.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 11:25:01 AM UTC-6, Jack Campin wrote:
> >>>> How do you pronounce Chipotle? or cilantro?
> >>> Having never tried to say them in public, I say "shi-pot-leh" and
> >>> "coriander leaves".
> >> "Urfa pepper" (or "Urfa biber" or "isot") and "dhaniya", since
> >> I go into Middle Eastern and Indian food shops a lot and Latin
> >> American ones hardly at all.
> > From what I read, urfa peppers are very different from chipotles.
> > Chipotles are very hot, smoked, and usually sold whole, though I'm
> > sure you can get them crushed.
>
> I've had them under both names and I can't tell the difference.
> Urfa peppers are smoked and always sold flaked in the UK though
> I've seen them whole in Turkey.

Now I'm finding contradictory information on the heat of urfa peppers
and chipotles, but some people say they're comparable in hotness.
Everything I've looked at says urfa peppers taste smoky but are not
smoked.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Oliver Cromm]

* mrucb...@att.net:

> [...] And don't blame American
> chefs for coming somewhat close in saying Spanish-derived words. How do you
> pronounce Chipotle? or cilantro?

When I first read "chipotle" on a menu, I rhymed it with
"Aristotle"; like some others, I was assuming a Nahuatl word
ending in -tl.

Forgot about those -tli words, although Metztli (moon) is the name
of a Mexican friend's daughter. I'll never forget how she, at 2
years old, pointed out the window and said "My moon!"

--
Java is the SUV of programming tools.
A project done in Java will cost 5 times as much, take twice as
long, and be harder to maintain than a project done in a
scripting language such as PHP or Perl. - Philip Greenspun

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Ignorant slut PeteY "Genital Herpes" Daniels wrote:

>
> bill van wrote:
>>
>> Shake and shake that ketchup bottle.
>> None'll come, and then a lottl.
>>
> Nash?
>

Wrong again.

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
"I once saw a woman in full burka at Walmart.
She was with a man." --PeteY

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 15:38:32 -0700, Reinhold {Rey} Aman
<am...@sonic.net> wrote:

>Ignorant slut PeteY "Genital Herpes" Daniels wrote:
>>
>> bill van wrote:
>>>
>>> Shake and shake that ketchup bottle.
>>> None'll come, and then a lottl.
>>>
>> Nash?
>>
>Wrong again.

Actually, Richard Armour, but his version spells it "lot'll".

He should be recognized by name-dropping PTD because Armour has a Ph.D
in English philology and he might have attended one of the meetings
that PTD is always dropping into conversations.

In fairness to the guess, Armour's light verse is often compared to
Nash's. His poems appeared in newspaper Sunday supplements in a
feature called "Armour's Armory". Fortunately, Armour never scored
particularly well on an IQ test so he is not castigated for
contributing to Sunday supplements.

The verse attributed to Armour is:

Shake and shake
The catsup bottle.
None'll come—
And then a lot'll.

He also wrote:

Nothing attracts
The mustard from wieners
As much as the slacks
Just back from the cleaners.

This quatrain could spawn a thread of multiple posts in aue. We could
discuss the naturalness of mustard on "weiners" and "slacks" for
pants, and whether or not the establishment is a cleaner or the
cleaners. Endlessly.





--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Robert Bannister]

I think I needed to repeat "in this country" or else reword the entire
sentence.

[Tony Cooper]

Arrgh! I want it on record that I caught my own error in letting
"weiners" slip by, and anyone else pointing it out is just hot
dogging.

[bill van]

In article <egeetbtj22rt2pg00...@4ax.com>,

Time to spill a little wiener blut.
--
bill

[Peter Moylan]

In French un avocat is both a lawyer and a fruit. In some other
languages the fruit is called some version of advocate-pear. As far as I
know, though, English got the word for the fruit from Spanish.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 7:27:36 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 15:38:32 -0700, Reinhold {Rey} Aman
> <am...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >Daniels wrote:
> >> bill van wrote:

> >>> Shake and shake that ketchup bottle.
> >>> None'll come, and then a lottl.
> >> Nash?
> >Wrong again.
>
> Actually, Richard Armour, but his version spells it "lot'll".

Too bad the sociopath didn't know that.

> He should be recognized by name-dropping PTD because Armour has a Ph.D
> in English philology and he might have attended one of the meetings
> that PTD is always dropping into conversations.

I know Richard Armour from endless imitations of *1066 and All That*. The
first one, *It All Started with Columbus*, was good. But he didn't know
when to stop.

Evidently Tony Cooper doesn't know what philologists do, either, or what
sort of meetings they go to.

And there's no reason to believe he was still engaging in philology after
1972.

[Jerry Friedman]

I thought the "in this country" and "here" took care of everything.

Jalapeños aren't the hottest chiles around, but they're definitely hot
enough for me.

--
Jerry Friedman
"No Trump" bridge-themed political shirts: cafepress.com/jerrysdesigns
Bumper stickers ditto: cafepress/jerrysstickers

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Text-falsifying bitch PeteY "Genital Herpes" Daniels drooled:
>
> Tony Cooper wrote:
>> Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
>>> Daniels wrote: { <---- *falsified again* }
>>>
I wrote:

>>> Ignorant slut PeteY "Genital Herpes" Daniels wrote:
>>>> bill van wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Shake and shake that ketchup bottle.
>>>>> None'll come, and then a lottl.
>>>>>
>>>> Nash?
>>>>
>>> Wrong again.
>>
>> Actually, Richard Armour, but his version spells it "lot'll".
>
> Too bad the sociopath didn't know that.
>

Wrong again, you *attention-craving* snippy little bitch.

[RH Draney]

On 9/12/2016 8:21 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> I know Richard Armour from endless imitations of *1066 and All That*. The
> first one, *It All Started with Columbus*, was good. But he didn't know
> when to stop.

I need a nap...I read that and wondered how I managed to miss Armour's
book on electricity, "It All Started with Coulombs"....r

[CDB]

On 9/12/2016 5:08 PM, Richard Yates wrote:
> Isabelle C <isab...@lewanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:
>> RH Draney a écrit :

>>> bill van wrote:

>>>> Shake and shake that ketchup bottle.
>>>> None'll come, and then a lottl.

>>> Shake it faster, gun the throttle,
>>> Serve it to your axolotl.
>>>

>> Shake it hard, show your mettle,
>> Pour it down the Popocatépetl.

> When it's dry you've won the battle,
> Toss it with your best atlatl.

If wounded neighbours protest that hotly,
Retort with salsa con chipotle.

[RH Draney]

If you'd like to taste chipotle
Change your pronunciation tot'lly.

....r

[Oliver Cromm]

* Tony Cooper:

>>He also wrote:
>>
>>Nothing attracts
>>The mustard from wieners
>>As much as the slacks
>>Just back from the cleaners.
>>
>>This quatrain could spawn a thread of multiple posts in aue. We could
>>discuss the naturalness of mustard on "weiners" and "slacks" for
>>pants, and whether or not the establishment is a cleaner or the
>>cleaners. Endlessly.
>
> Arrgh! I want it on record that I caught my own error in letting
> "weiners" slip by, and anyone else pointing it out is just hot
> dogging.

Crybaby!

--
Bill Gates working as a waiter:
- Waiter, there's a fly in my soup
- Try again, maybe it won't be there this time

[Jerry Friedman]

If you want to make a goat lay
Tracks, just feed it some chipotle.

--
Jerry Friedman

[CDB]

On 9/13/2016 5:22 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> RH Draney wrote:

>> CDB wrote:
>>> Richard Yates wrote:
>>>> Isabelle C <isab...@lewanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> RH Draney a écrit :
>>>>>> bill van wrote:

>>>>>>> Shake and shake that ketchup bottle.
>>>>>>> None'll come, and then a lottl.

>>>>>> Shake it faster, gun the throttle,
>>>>>> Serve it to your axolotl.
>>>>>>

>>>>> Shake it hard, show your mettle,
>>>>> Pour it down the Popocatépetl.

>>>> When it's dry you've won the battle,
>>>> Toss it with your best atlatl.

>>> If wounded neighbours protest that hotly,
>>> Retort with salsa con chipotle.

>> If you'd like to taste chipotle
>> Change your pronunciation tot'lly.

> If you want to make a goat lay
> Tracks, just feed it some chipotle.

That's more than mere caloric outlay;
Swollen goatlips bleat chipoutlay.

But got it now. If I may quote Lay,
"Chips go better with chipotle."

[Jerry Friedman]

That's definitely better than mine.

[CDB]

On 9/14/2016 10:16 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

From my position on the shoulders of others, I see the cascade as
an organic whole.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 9:03:42 PM UTC+3, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 1:25:01 PM UTC-4, Jack Campin wrote:
>
> > >>>> How do you pronounce Chipotle? or cilantro?
> > >>> Having never tried to say them in public, I say "shi-pot-leh" and
> > >>> "coriander leaves".
> > >> "Urfa pepper" (or "Urfa biber" or "isot") and "dhaniya", since
> > >> I go into Middle Eastern and Indian food shops a lot and Latin
> > >> American ones hardly at all.
> > > From what I read, urfa peppers are very different from chipotles.
> > > Chipotles are very hot, smoked, and usually sold whole, though I'm
> > > sure you can get them crushed.
> >

> > I've had them under both names and I can't tell the difference.
> > Urfa peppers are smoked and always sold flaked in the UK though
> > I've seen them whole in Turkey.
>

> Urfa is the modern Turkish(?) name of the ancient city of Edessa, capital of
> the early Christian kingdom of Osrhoëne.

Syriac Orhāy / Urhoy, Armenian Uṛ.hay Arabic al-ruhā / al-ruhā'
Kurdish Riha [rəhā]

It has been called Urfa in Turkish since at least the 17th cent.

In 1984 it was the given official name Şanlıurfa "Glorious Urfa"
referring to the popular resistance against French occupation (1919-1920).

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 3:33:13 AM UTC+3, Jack Campin wrote:
> >>>>>> How do you pronounce Chipotle? [...]
> >>>> "Urfa pepper" [...]

> > Urfa is the modern Turkish(?) name of the ancient city of Edessa,
> > capital of the early Christian kingdom of Osrhoëne.
>

> Its official name since the 1920s is Sanliurfa, but you never see
> that except in government sources.

"Şanlıurfa" ("Glorious Urfa") dates from 1984. Urfa is 17th cent.
or earlier.

"Urfa peppers" is also called isot in Turkish, perhaps from
ısı ot "hot grass".

>
> I doubt if anybody still called it Edessa when peppers first got
> there.
>
> I didn't notice them locally - probably one of the many instances
> of a foodstuff getting a geographical name that has little to do
> with where it originated or is most used. Various kinds of kebab
> in Turkey are named after cities, but all of them are avasilable
> everywhere.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
> Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
> mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Dingbat]

On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 11:33:42 PM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 1:25:01 PM UTC-4, Jack Campin wrote:
>
> > >>>> How do you pronounce Chipotle? or cilantro?
> > >>> Having never tried to say them in public, I say "shi-pot-leh" and
> > >>> "coriander leaves".
> > >> "Urfa pepper" (or "Urfa biber" or "isot") and "dhaniya", since
> > >> I go into Middle Eastern and Indian food shops a lot and Latin
> > >> American ones hardly at all.
> > > From what I read, urfa peppers are very different from chipotles.
> > > Chipotles are very hot, smoked, and usually sold whole, though I'm
> > > sure you can get them crushed.
> >
> > I've had them under both names and I can't tell the difference.
> > Urfa peppers are smoked and always sold flaked in the UK though
> > I've seen them whole in Turkey.
>

> Urfa is the modern Turkish(?) name of the ancient city of Edessa, capital of
> the early Christian kingdom of Osrhoëne.

Yes, and Antakya is the Turkish name of Antioch. Both are in what was called
Alexandretta when it was part of French administered Syria. I've read that
Alexandretta was given to Turkey to bribe them into not supporting the Nazis.

[Dingbat]

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 at 4:57:36 AM UTC+5:30, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 15:38:32 -0700, Reinhold {Rey} Aman
> <am...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> >Ignorant slut PeteY "Genital Herpes" Daniels wrote:
> >>
> >> bill van wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Shake and shake that ketchup bottle.
> >>> None'll come, and then a lottl.
> >>>
> >> Nash?
> >>
> >Wrong again.
>
> Actually, Richard Armour, but his version spells it "lot'll".
>
> He should be recognized by name-dropping PTD because Armour has a Ph.D
> in English philology and he might have attended one of the meetings
> that PTD is always dropping into conversations.

Armour wrote, 'The defenders of the Alamo were killed to the last man
who was also killed.' It was in his history of the US; I don't remember
the title of the book.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Sunday, September 18, 2016 at 4:00:21 PM UTC+3, Dingbat wrote:
> On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 11:33:42 PM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 1:25:01 PM UTC-4, Jack Campin wrote:
> >
> > > >>>> How do you pronounce Chipotle? or cilantro?
> > > >>> Having never tried to say them in public, I say "shi-pot-leh" and
> > > >>> "coriander leaves".
> > > >> "Urfa pepper" (or "Urfa biber" or "isot") and "dhaniya", since
> > > >> I go into Middle Eastern and Indian food shops a lot and Latin
> > > >> American ones hardly at all.
> > > > From what I read, urfa peppers are very different from chipotles.
> > > > Chipotles are very hot, smoked, and usually sold whole, though I'm
> > > > sure you can get them crushed.
> > >
> > > I've had them under both names and I can't tell the difference.
> > > Urfa peppers are smoked and always sold flaked in the UK though
> > > I've seen them whole in Turkey.
> >
> > Urfa is the modern Turkish(?) name of the ancient city of Edessa, capital of
> > the early Christian kingdom of Osrhoëne.
>
> Yes, and Antakya is the Turkish name of Antioch. Both are in what was called

Antakya directly comes from the Arabic name of the city, 'anTa:kiya:

> Alexandretta when it was part of French administered Syria. I've read that,

Alexandretta is a separate town, a port. In Turkish: İskenderun
for Arabic al-'iskandaru:na(t) (variants 'iskandaru:na(t), al'iskandaru:n,
'iskandaru:n). The district (Turkish sancak [sanjaq] "banner" translated
into Arabic as liwa:') of İskenderun included Antakya but never Urfa. It
is the portion of Turkey that juts south into Syria. When incorporated
into Turkey in 1938 Antakya became the capital of the district with the
status of vilayet (still understood, now called il) and the name of the
district called Hatay (a neologism based on "Hittite", allegedly it was
Hittite (actually more like Luwian) and allegedly the Hittites were
Turks. For a year before that a nominally state was established, called
the State of Hatay (Hatay Devleti). A highly fictionalized version
under the name "Republic of Hatay" was depicted in "Indiana Jones and the
Last Crusade", though location scenes were in Petra, Jordan.

Syria recently recognized the incorporation of the district, when
Asad - Erdoğan relations were good, but gives special privileges
to those born there.

Except for the district of Alexandretta, the Syrian - Turkish
border was demarcated by the Treaty of Ankara (confirmed later
in Laussane)

[Yusuf B Gursey]

The Treaty of Ankara was between the Ankara Government (Kemalist,
later to become the Republic of Turkey) and France in 1921. The
French had withdrawn from Urfa a year earlier. France had enough
difficulty with rebellious Arab forces in Syria, it simply could
not fight on both sides of the front. The French gave up occupying
portions of Anatolia allotted to them so that they could hold on
to Syria. The treaties had stipulated on the rights of Turks in the
district of Alexandretta.

[bebe...@aol.com]

Lausanne

[jakeda...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, 28 August 1991 00:24:42 UTC+10, rose...@zodiac.rutgers.edu wrote:
> I pronounce "scallops" with the first vowel sounding like the "a" in
> "hat", i.e. to rhyme with "gallops". I've heard many people pronounce
> it with the first vowel sounding like the "a" in the American pronuncia-
> tion of "what", thus rhyming it with "dollops". Question: how are the
> two pronunciations distributed among the various English dialects?
> --
>
> Daniel M. Rosenblum, Assistant Professor, Quantitative Studies Area,
> Graduate School of Management, Rutgers University (Newark)
>
> ROSE...@DRACO.RUTGERS.EDU \/ same machine,
> ROSE...@DRACO.BITnet /\ different networks
>
> ROSE...@CANCER.RUTGERS.EDU \ / CANCER & PISCES are machines in a
> ROSE...@PISCES.RUTGERS.EDU >< VAXcluster called ZODIAC, so these
> ROSE...@ZODIAC.BITnet / \ 3 addresses all go to the same place.

sAME

[Peter Moylan]

Only a year to go until we can celebrate the 30th anniversary of the
early postings to alt.usage.english.

(scallops rhyme with dollops here)

[Snidely]

Peter Moylan presented the following explanation :

A soft gallops in my neck of the geoduck^W Left Coast, as best I can
tell.

(My mother always ordered them. I'm okay with them, but not inclined
to look for them.)

/dps "ABICT"




--
Rule #0: Don't be on fire.
In case of fire, exit the building before tweeting about it.
(Sighting reported by Adam F)

[RH Draney]

On 3/20/2020 3:26 PM, Snidely wrote:
> Peter Moylan presented the following explanation :
>>

>> (scallops rhyme with dollops here)
>
> A soft gallops in my neck of the geoduck^W Left Coast, as best I can tell.
>
> (My mother always ordered them.  I'm okay with them, but not inclined to
> look for them.)

My mother liked them too...I told her I preferred not to eat anything
that eats with its asshole....

On another occasion, she asked me what they looked like with their
shells on...I told her to picture the Shell Oil Company logo....r

[Dingbat]

On Wednesday, September 4, 1991 at 5:01:03 AM UTC-7, L J Wilson wrote:
> In article <91246.12...@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> JU...@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (Moss Madden) writes:
>
> >In England the word scallops is always pronounced with an 'o' sound,
> >unless in a regional accent, when anything might happen
>
> Hmm, I am from Scotland, I have never heard them called 'scollops', tis
> always scallops, with a nice 'a' as in hat.
>
> babybear
>
The Mall in London is a [m&l].
May a Londoner call the one in Washington a [m&l]
... or a Washingtonian call the one in London a [mOl]?

[Ken Blake]

On 3/20/2020 6:26 PM, RH Draney wrote:
> On 3/20/2020 3:26 PM, Snidely wrote:
>> Peter Moylan presented the following explanation :
>>>
>>> (scallops rhyme with dollops here)
>>
>> A soft gallops in my neck of the geoduck^W Left Coast, as best I can tell.
>>
>> (My mother always ordered them.  I'm okay with them, but not inclined to
>> look for them.)
>
> My mother liked them too...I told her I preferred not to eat anything
> that eats with its asshole....

Mirugai (the Japanese name for them) is one of my favorite kinds of
sushi, but unfortunately it's been getting hard to get, at least around
here.

--
Ken

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Why not?

> ... or a Washingtonian call the one in London a [mOl]?

I don't whether they may or not, but they do.




--
athel

[occam]

On 21/03/2020 09:24, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2020-03-21 01:44:58 +0000, Dingbat said:
>
>> On Wednesday, September 4, 1991 at 5:01:03 AM UTC-7, L J Wilson wrote:
>>> In article <91246.12...@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> JU...@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK
>>> (Moss Madden) writes:
>>>
>>>> In England the word scallops is always pronounced with an 'o' sound,
>>>> unless in a regional accent, when anything might happen
>>>
>>> Hmm, I am from Scotland, I have never heard them called 'scollops', tis
>>> always scallops, with a nice 'a' as in hat.
>>>
>>>     babybear
>>>
>> The Mall in London is a [m&l].
>> May a Londoner call the one in Washington a [m&l]
>
> Why not?

Missing 'n'. Ma[n]y a Londoner...

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 9:45:01 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:

> The Mall in London is a [m&l].
> May a Londoner call the one in Washington a [m&l]
> ... or a Washingtonian call the one in London a [mOl]?

They might, but they mayn't.