"Fujiyama" vs. "Fujisan"
TANAKA Tomoyuki
question: why is Mt. Fuji called in American English "Fujiyama" much
more often than "Fujisan" (check your dictionary), when in
Japan it is usually called "fujisan" and rarely "fujiyama"?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
at least in the last 20 years or so, when "fujiyama" is used in
Japanese, it is usually in KATAKANA and in one of the following
phrases.
--- "geisya, fujiyama"
(sarcastic reference to Westerners' outdated image of Japan)
--- "fujiyama no tobiuo"
(referring to some Japanese swimmer in some Olympic games
somewhere.)
thanks for any help.
tomoyuki
Mark Odegard
(TANAKA Tomoyuki) writes:
Really? And I mean this in all seriousness.
You intimate Fujiyama or Mt. Fuji is not incorrect.
Kim Wallace
: In <3kfulj$6...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
: (TANAKA Tomoyuki) writes:
: >at least in the last 20 years or so, when "fujiyama" is used in
: >Japanese, it is usually in KATAKANA and in one of the following
: >phrases.
I can't vouch for it appearing only in katakana, since the kanji would
be the same as fuji-san! I have never seen explicit furigana indicating
fuji-san was the correct reading, however, everyone I've talked to has
said fuji-san except sometimes when they weren't sure I (as a white
gaijin) would know on-yomi!
I once heard fujiyama used in an English speech taken out of a text that
was written in the 70s, and a host father of mine (in his 60s) used it
(also in English) talking to my American dad.
There may be some regional (that host was originally from Kyushu) or
generational issues there -- the Japanese language has become a lot
more homogenous in recent decades than it was in years past, but I've
still heard some little differences like this (such as one family I
know calling the Yama-no-te line Yama-te).
: >--- "geisya, fujiyama"
: > (sarcastic reference to Westerners' outdated image of Japan)
The only time I've heard this usage is the Kome Kome Club song "Funk
Fujiyama"...I don't think that kind of sarcasm is too big in Japan.
: >--- "fujiyama no tobiuo"
: > (referring to some Japanese swimmer in some Olympic games
: > somewhere.)
Never heard that one, altho' I watched a big chunk of the summer
Olympics in Japan in '92. Then again, I'm not a big fan of swimming
so I wasn't paying the most attention.
: Really? And I mean this in all seriousness.
: You intimate Fujiyama or Mt. Fuji is not incorrect.
Mt. Fuji would be a correct translation of Fuji-san or Fuji-yama.
--
Kim Wallace
kim...@dax.cs.wisc.edu UPL Coordinator for Refrigerator Acquisition
wal...@cs.wisc.edu http://yar.cs.wisc.edu/~kimuchi
John R. Swaney
writes:
(Snips)
>
>Mt. Fuji would be a correct translation of Fuji-san or Fuji-yama.
>
Well, "Mt. Fuji" certainly wouldn't be a _literal_ translation of
"Fuji-san." The literal translation would be something like "honorable
Fuji."
Here's how it was explained to me when I was spending some time in
Japan. Fuji-yama translates literally as "Fuji mountain," or figuratively
as "Mount Fuji." However, that particular mountain holds a place of such
reverence in the history and folklore of Japan....and, in fact, is a virtual
symbol of the nation...that it is a custom to refer to it as one would refer
to a person, using the honorific form of address, "san." To do so is to
show a respect for the mountain that a non-Japanese probably would not feel
or appreciate, so most Westerners would be forgiven for calling it
"Fuji-yama." Certainly, that term is not "incorrect" in any respect.
I don't know of any other case in which an inanimate object, or
anything non-human, for that matter, is referred to by the honorific.
John Swaney
Los Angeles
Kim Wallace
: Here's how it was explained to me when I was spending some time in
: Japan. Fuji-yama translates literally as "Fuji mountain," or figuratively
: as "Mount Fuji." However, that particular mountain holds a place of such
: reverence in the history and folklore of Japan....and, in fact, is a virtual
: symbol of the nation...that it is a custom to refer to it as one would refer
: to a person, using the honorific form of address, "san." To do so is to
: show a respect for the mountain that a non-Japanese probably would not feel
: or appreciate, so most Westerners would be forgiven for calling it
: "Fuji-yama." Certainly, that term is not "incorrect" in any respect.
"San" is a legitimate reading of the character for mountain, and it _is_
the reading usually used for the names of mountains. I'm trying to remember
a good outside-of-Japan example from the world geography class I took in
Japan, but unfortunately it's late! However, Aso-san, Tsukuba-san and all
the other mountains less deeply important to the national consciousness
wouldn't be refered to the way they are if it was a purely honorific issue.
I don't know who explained things to you that way, but it seemed to be
pretty much a euphony or language-standardization issue to me, and I spent
enough time in Japan to hear otherwise (and didn't).
--
Kim Wallace
kim...@dax.cs.wisc.edu UPL Coordinator and grown-up Stunt Baby
wal...@cs.wisc.edu http://yar.cs.wisc.edu/~kimuchi
Scott Reynolds
> "Fuji-san." The literal translation would be something like "honorable
> Fuji."
>
> Here's how it was explained to me when I was spending some time in
> Japan. Fuji-yama translates literally as "Fuji mountain," or figuratively
> as "Mount Fuji." However, that particular mountain holds a place of such
> reverence in the history and folklore of Japan....and, in fact, is a virtual
> symbol of the nation...that it is a custom to refer to it as one would refer
> to a person, using the honorific form of address, "san." To do so is to
> show a respect for the mountain that a non-Japanese probably would not feel
> or appreciate, so most Westerners would be forgiven for calling it
> "Fuji-yama." Certainly, that term is not "incorrect" in any respect.
>
> I don't know of any other case in which an inanimate object, or
> anything non-human, for that matter, is referred to by the honorific.
The "san" in "Fuji-san" is the Chinese character for "mountain," not the
honorific san (as in Tanaka-san).
The names of mountains in Japanese are always XXXX-san (with the "san"
being the word for mountain, not the honorific). "Fuji-san" simply
conforms with this usage.
______________________________________________________
Scott Reynolds reyn...@ripco.com
Kim Wallace
: I don't know of any other case in which an inanimate object, or
Actually (not to comment on every word you wrote :) I know of plently of cases
where inanimate and non-human things are called "san". Generally more as
an affectionate thing (in the same way that you would refer to your child
as "san"; Keiko-san, etc.) than an honorific, tho'. Pets are a good example.
On the other hand, I'm fairly sure I've heard "Fuji-sama", which would be
more in accord with the part of your post I snipped this time...
Incoherent at 10 to midnight...
--
Kim Wallace
kim...@dax.cs.wisc.edu UPL Coordinator and grown-up Stunt Baby
wal...@cs.wisc.edu http://yar.cs.wisc.edu/~kimuchi
Andrew Bailey
>(Snips)
>John Swaney
>Los Angeles
Actually ... I think it has a lot to do with the whole concept of 'kami'
... in Japanese religion and society ...
Andrew
--
........................................................................
Andrew Bailey INTERNET: ja33...@student.uq.edu.au
University of Queensland
St. Lucia, Australia Carpe Diem
Jeffrey L Nolin
>question: why is Mt. Fuji called in American English "Fujiyama" much
> more often than "Fujisan" (check your dictionary), when in
> Japan it is usually called "fujisan" and rarely "fujiyama"?
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
instead of a translation of the "san" in Fujisan. Mt. Fuji is indeed
Fujiyama. If you mean "the" Mt. Fuji then it is indeed Fujisan.
Since Fujisan is an exception to the rule, then it is understandable
that -yama the standard would often be used instead of -san
the exception. The real need is to come up with an acceptable
translation of -san, in English, when translating Fujisan. Just
calling it Mt. Fuji doesn't seem to cut it.
Jonathan Byrne
TT> more often than "Fujisan" (check your dictionary), when in
TT> Japan it is usually called "fujisan" and rarely "fujiyama"?
I've wondered about that, but must add that I have only rarely heard
Americans refer to it as "fujiyama." My theory on the origin of
"fujiyama," though, is this: someone with a little knowledge (very
little) knew that the Japanese word for mountain is "yama," and then
created "fujiyama" from the usual English term, Mt. Fuji, and assumed it
to be correct Japanese.
I have, of course, no particular evidence to support this, but it seems
like a plausible theory.
Jonathan
---
ş OLX 2.1 TD ş jonatha...@janis-tok.com
John R. Swaney
John R. Swaney
>
>"San" is a legitimate reading of the character for mountain, and it _is_
>the reading usually used for the names of mountains. I'm trying to
remember
>a good outside-of-Japan example from the world geography class I took in
>Japan, but unfortunately it's late! However, Aso-san, Tsukuba-san and all
>the other mountains less deeply important to the national consciousness
>wouldn't be refered to the way they are if it was a purely honorific issue.
>I don't know who explained things to you that way, but it seemed to be
>pretty much a euphony or language-standardization issue to me, and I spent
>enough time in Japan to hear otherwise (and didn't).
>
>
>--
>Kim Wallace
>
Sorry about the blank posting above. Netcom must have had a
momentary glitch.
What I said was:
Boy do I stand corrected! Frankly, I don't remember who it was
among my associates in Japan that gave me the "honorific" explanation, but
he or she certainly was wrong.
If I understand you correctly, the kanji character for "mountain"
can be pronounced (read) as either "yama" or "san." I have a couple of
books on kanji here which don't show that variant, but I guess they could be
as inadequate as my friend in Japan.
Thanks for the info.
John Swaney
Los Angeles
Wei-Hwa Huang
I would perhaps say "Fujisan" = Fuji mountain
"Fujiyama" = Fuji Mountain
Does that work?
Reuben Muns
>
>
> Well, "Mt. Fuji" certainly wouldn't be a _literal_ translation of
>"Fuji-san." The literal translation would be something like "honorable
>Fuji."
>
Sumimasen, but you fell into a linguistic trap. Fuji-san does indeed
translate to "Mount Fuji", just the same as Fujiyama. The "san" in
this case is NOT the honorific used with names. It's another yomikata
(method of reading) the Kanji which means "mountain".
kun yomi = yama
on yomi = san (similar to Chinese "shan" as in Shantung)
Reuben
Per Sundfeldt
: Well, "Mt. Fuji" certainly wouldn't be a _literal_ translation of
: "Fuji-san." The literal translation would be something like "honorable
: Fuji."
: Here's how it was explained to me when I was spending some time in
: Japan. Fuji-yama translates literally as "Fuji mountain," or figuratively
: as "Mount Fuji." However, that particular mountain holds a place of such
: reverence in the history and folklore of Japan....and, in fact, is a virtual
: symbol of the nation...that it is a custom to refer to it as one would refer
: to a person, using the honorific form of address, "san." To do so is to
: show a respect for the mountain that a non-Japanese probably would not feel
: or appreciate, so most Westerners would be forgiven for calling it
: "Fuji-yama." Certainly, that term is not "incorrect" in any respect.
Dear Mr. Swaney,
I am afraid some mendacious person has amused himself at your expense.
Fujisan and Fujiyama mean the same thing, and are written with the same
three kanji. The third ideogram can be pronounced both in Sino-Japanese
(on-yomi): "san," or in Japanese (kun-yomi) "yama." But both readings mean
"mountain." Fujiyama is the aberration here, being a bastard term, i.e.
comprising of both on-yomi and kun-yomi. Such readings are uncommon but exist.
: I don't know of any other case in which an inanimate object, or
: anything non-human, for that matter, is referred to by the honorific.
God is non-human isn't he/she/it? Further, you should come home to me, I
usually refer to my computer as Mac-chan (^_^).
Wei-Hwa Huang
>I would perhaps say "Fujisan" = Fuji mountain
> "Fujiyama" = Fuji Mountain
>Does that work?
iCome to think of it, I may have that reversed.
Let me attempt to explain my rationale.
The character for "mountain" (the three-stroke character in this discussion)
has an On-reading (Chinese) of "san," and a Kun-reading (Japanese) of "yama."
These are basically the only two readings it has, except for a few exceptions
like "yagi" = "mountain sheep" = "goat." Oh, and sometimes for pronunciation
conveinence it can be "zan."
Now, the On-reading is basically used for phrases that existed in Chinese,
while the Kun-reading is used for compound phrases in Japanese. So we
have "sanjoo" = mountaintop, "sanrin" = mountain forest, "sanmyaku" =
mountain range, "sanson" = mountain village,
"gezan" = down mountain = come down from a mountain = leave a temple (because
most important temples were on mountains); and on the other hand, "yamakami"
= mountain god =? wife, "yamatsunami" = mountain tsunami = avalanche,
"yamaoroshi" = wind blowing down a mountain (the character for "oroshi" looks
decidedly un-Chinese to me).
You also get interesting oddities like "yamamizu" = mountain water (spring),
but "sansui" = landscape, scenery. The latter meaning is still in use by
Chinese, but it seems like the first meaning is not, despite the literal
surface reading.
Anyway, it seems to me that since "Fuji" is the On-reading of the name,
"Fujisan" is a single phrase meaning "Fuji Mountain," while "Fujiyama"
is a two-component phrase meaning "the mountain called Fuji."
Does this make sense?
Carl Wright cc0197
I was writing something in Japanese and I started to put down the word
takusan, meaning many. I thought that there might be a kanji that I could
use, so I looked it up in a Japanese dictionary. There were two kanji's
for the word. I recognized the second one as the kanji I knew for mountain.
Being curious, I looked up the first one to find out what connection the
kanji for mountain would have with the word for 'many'. The first kanji
was taku with a meaning of 'swamp'. Trying to rationalize how that a swamp
on the side of a mountain could have anything to do with 'many', I realized
that the two kanji's were just used for their sounds. I would like to ask
the experienced Japanese writers how they would write takusan in a document?
Would you use the kanji I have seen in dictionaries, or would you use
hiragana?
Can you think of another language on earth where you could have a native
speaker of the language read from a native publication to ten other
native speakers, have them write down what is read, have all ten of them
have something that could be slightly different, and yet have all ten of
them be correct?
Carl
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Disclammer...Disclamur...Whatever...If I can't spell Disclaimer, it's obvious
I don't speak for 3M.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Luke
|> The names of mountains in Japanese are always XXXX-san (with the "san"
|> being the word for mountain, not the honorific). "Fuji-san" simply
|> conforms with this usage.
Just to be pedantic, there are lots of mountains that are "yama" rather than
"san", though "san" seems to be more common, at least from my experience.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| David Luke Sword of truth, fly swift and sure |
| lu...@boi.hp.com That evil die, and good endure |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kim Wallace
: Just to put in my 2 yen worth.
Oddly enough worth more than 2 cents these days, I think...and to think I
wanted to melt all my 1 yen coins down for the aluminum at one point...
: on the side of a mountain could have anything to do with 'many', I realized
: that the two kanji's were just used for their sounds. I would like to ask
: the experienced Japanese writers how they would write takusan in a document?
: Would you use the kanji I have seen in dictionaries, or would you use
: hiragana?
Yep, there are quite a few cases of kanji used only for their sounds...kind
of neat, huh? Hong Kong Cantonese is even worse (at least as much of it as
I can read (not much)).
Anyway, how I would write takusan depends on what I was writing and who my
prospective audience is. I'd probably use it for newspaper-style writing
and serious essays for a general audience, and it's a toss-up whether I'd
use it for a technical piece or Japanese-class assignment...most technical
pieces I've read tend to have it in hiragana, I think, and in assignments
it honestly depends on whether I'm grasping for material or having a hard
time fitting all my ideas onto the tiny piece of paper. I would definitely
write it in hiragana for a personal letter, narrative, or anything where the
audience would potentially include folks with a junior high level education
(keeping in mind that that's the last mandatory level in Japan).
: Can you think of another language on earth where you could have a native
: speaker of the language read from a native publication to ten other
: native speakers, have them write down what is read, have all ten of them
: have something that could be slightly different, and yet have all ten of
: them be correct?
They wouldn't all necessarily be correct...native Japanese screw up kanji
just like the rest of us (all tho' not necessarily as often...).
--
Kim Wallace
kim...@dax.cs.wisc.edu UPL Coordinator and former Stunt Baby
wal...@cs.wisc.edu http://yar.cs.wisc.edu/~kimuchi
"Very early in my life it was too late."
Benjamin William Kelly
>Dear Mr. Swaney,
How about Koya-san, the mountain near Osaka where all the tombs/shrines
and things of some incredibly famous people reside?
-Ben
Mark Odegard
Huang) writes:
[snip snip snip]
>"yamakami" = mountain god =? wife [...]
A left turn in the thread. It my understanding that "god" is not quite
the right tanslation for "kami".
A kami may be great or small, but is fundmentally something other than
what a Westerner would think of as a lower-case "god." "Spirit",
"daemon" would be a better generic translation.
The Classical Graces, Muses or Furys would be analogous to kamis.
Wagner's Rhine Maidens and Norns could also be described in such terms.
Not really goddesses, yet part of the spirit world, with powers of their
own.
The American attitude towards Hirohito being regarded as a "god" was a
gross misunderstanding. The Japanese Emperor was regarded as a living
kami, and not something analogous to the demented Roman Emperors who
thought of themseleves a Jupiter-on-Earth. The Japanese attitude
towards the Emperor was no more and no less unreasonable than the
"divine right" claims made for European monarchs (and even today, in
certain circles, for the Queen of England).
John R. Swaney
>
>I am afraid some mendacious person has amused himself at your expense.
>Fujisan and Fujiyama mean the same thing, and are written with the same
>three kanji. The third ideogram can be pronounced both in Sino-Japanese
>(on-yomi): "san," or in Japanese (kun-yomi) "yama." But both readings mean
>"mountain." Fujiyama is the aberration here, being a bastard term, i.e.
>comprising of both on-yomi and kun-yomi. Such readings are uncommon but
exist.
>
>
Believe me, I know it now. I doubt I've ever looked so ill-informed
in a public posting (although anything is possible.) But here is a final
note. I called a friend of mine who was married to a Japanese man for many
years, lived in Japan, and is fluent in the language. I told her about my
bozo misimpression, to which she replied: 1) the notion that the "san" in
Fuji-san is the honorific is totally wrong, as you've all pointed out; 2)
however, she _also_ saw that "honorific" explanation in a children's book on
Japan and the Japanese language that she purchased for her sons. So, it's
apparently some kind of old wives' tale that gets spread to unsuspecting
Westerners like me. She noted that the children's book had been written by
an American and she opined that the "Fuji-san" story illustrated the
arrogance of Westerners who pretend that anyone but the Japanese can ever
_really_ understand the language.
John Swaney
Los Angeles
Ulrich Plate
: Fuji."
No. "fuji-san" is simply "Mount Fuji", "-san" being the sino-japanese
reading for the same kanji as "yama".
Ulrich Plate
Wei-Hwa Huang
>Can you think of another language on earth where you could have a native
>speaker of the language read from a native publication to ten other
>native speakers, have them write down what is read, have all ten of them
>have something that could be slightly different, and yet have all ten of
>them be correct?
(tongue in cheek)
Sure, just get a group of mathematicians together and tell them to write
down "For all fields that have a certain fixed number of elements that is
finite, there will exist an element that will generate the non-zero
elements of the field." ;-)
Seriously, this is just a side effect of having many "alphabets." More
importantly though, the choice can heavily influence the connotation.
Wei-Hwa Huang
>In article <D5oAp...@rci.ripco.com>, Scott Reynolds <reyn...@ripco.com> writes:
>|> The names of mountains in Japanese are always XXXX-san (with the "san"
>|> being the word for mountain, not the honorific). "Fuji-san" simply
>|> conforms with this usage.
>Just to be pedantic, there are lots of mountains that are "yama" rather than
>"san", though "san" seems to be more common, at least from my experience.
Well, here's all the proper names in one dictionary I have:
Daisen in Shimane-ken
Hakusan in Gifu-ken
Tateyama in Toyama-ken
Daisetsuzan in Hokkaido
Hieizan in Kyoto
Asosan in Kumamoto-ken
Asamayama between Nagano-ken and Gunma-ken
Koyasan in Wakayama-ken
Fujisan (of course)
Bandaisan in Fukushima-ken
Hakoneyama in Kanagawa-ken
Two "yama"s compared to nine "san"s.
Oh, but what about Toyama, Fukuyama, Okayama, Wakayama and Matsuyama?
All of them are cities with "mountain" in their names. Are they based
on actual mountains nearby?
Pascal MacProgrammer
>Well, here's all the proper names in one dictionary I have:
>
>Daisen in Shimane-ken
>Hakusan in Gifu-ken
>Tateyama in Toyama-ken
>Daisetsuzan in Hokkaido
>Hieizan in Kyoto
>Asosan in Kumamoto-ken
>Asamayama between Nagano-ken and Gunma-ken
>Koyasan in Wakayama-ken
>Fujisan (of course)
>Bandaisan in Fukushima-ken
>Hakoneyama in Kanagawa-ken
>
>Two "yama"s compared to nine "san"s.
>
>Oh, but what about Toyama, Fukuyama, Okayama, Wakayama and Matsuyama?
>All of them are cities with "mountain" in their names. Are they based
>on actual mountains nearby?
It appears that the =tendancy= is to give all characters in the name
their "on" pronunciation, or all the "kun". I'm not good enough at
Japanese yet to recognize from a romaji transcription which it is. (But
I'm rather certain about "Fujisan" [on-on-on] and "Matsuyama" [kun-kun].)
--
==----= Steve MacGregor
([.] [.]) Phoenix, AZ
--------------------------oOOo--(_)--oOOo----------------------------------
Help stamp out, eliminate, and abolish redundancy!
Steve Sundberg
: In <3kfulj$6...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
: >
: > (sarcastic reference to Westerners' outdated image of Japan)
: >
: >--- "fujiyama no tobiuo"
: > (referring to some Japanese swimmer in some Olympic games
: > somewhere.)
: Really? And I mean this in all seriousness.
: You intimate Fujiyama or Mt. Fuji is not incorrect.
The 'san' part of Fujisan is not an honorific, only an alternative
pronunciation of the kanji for mountain, I think.
Kelly Tsai Chia-Hua
Glen F. Pankow
(TANAKA Tomoyuki) writes:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> question: why is Mt. Fuji called in American English "Fujiyama" much
> more often than "Fujisan" (check your dictionary), when in
> Japan it is usually called "fujisan" and rarely "fujiyama"?
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
Why do Americans call rice wine "saki" more often than "sake"? Or "harikari"
more often than "harakiri"? Or "karey-oki" more often than "karaoke"?
A CIA plot? A conspiracy by disgruntled Jet program rejects?? Racists in the
LA PD??? I'm impressed -- not even Mr. Tanaka has implied such goofiness.
Certainly much of it can be attributed to the difficultly for many Americans
to properly pronounce Japanese words or to mistakenly intersperse syllables.
These things are easy to get propagated, as most people do not have the
knowledge about Japan needed to recognize the correct pronunciation. And
once such words start becoming widely propagated, they become ingrained in the
language.
"Fujiyama" might be a bit more complex. Perhaps somebody who thought he knew
more about the Japanese language than he actually did got the whole snowball
rolling? Some of the replies to this subject indicate that this is a problem
even today...
Unfortunately other examples abound:
Every year when some local Japanese businesses hold their Spring festival, a
news anchorman for *years* mentioned the wonderful "banzai" trees displayed
there. Only last year did he finally get it right. Surely he must have been
corrected repeatedly.
I still cringe whenever I hear someone discuss the beauty of "Kiyoto" or a
Japanese woman in a "kimona".
You'd think that some of it would be actively challenged. Why do Japanese
manufacturers allow Americans to butcher their company names? Were I to
properly pronounce the sentence "I left my Nikon in my Honda.", I doubt the
listener would understand what I was trying to say.
Oh, well, maybe I'll go over to Makudonarudo and think about it...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A side note: nobody has yet noted that the term "Fujinoyama" was used much
more commonly in the past as well.
In E. Papinot's book, Historical and Geographical Dictionary of Japan,
Mt. Fuji has also been called (in addition to Fuji-no-yama and Fuji-san)
Narusawa no takane, Tokiwa-yama, Hatachi-yama, Chiri-yama, Mie-yama, Nii-yama,
Midashi-yama, Mikami-yama, Hagoromo-yama, Otome-yama, Higashi-yama,
Taketori-yama, Sennin-yama, Fuku-kaze-ana-yama, Toki-shiranu-yama, etc. For
those of you who like to count these things, that's 15 yamas to 1 san :-).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Onizuka KENTARO
>>The 'san' part of Fujisan is not an honorific, only an alternative
>>pronunciation of the kanji for mountain, I think.
Yes!
character kun-yomi on-yomi mandarin chinese
|
| | |
| | | yama san/sen shan1
|_____|_____|
old chinese cantonese
tsian saan
There are a lot of mountain with SAN/SEN added after the name.
Bandaisan Asosan Daisen Ususan...
together with,, there are a lot of mountain with -YAMA
Asamayama
-Yama follows kunyomi names and -San follows on-yomi names. In this
sense, FUJISAN should be FUJISAN not FUJIYAMA.
When I first heard of "FUJIYAMA GEISHA", I didn't recognize it would
mean FUJISAN.
Kentaro
Satoru Miyazaki
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> question: why is Mt. Fuji called in American English "Fujiyama" much
> more often than "Fujisan" (check your dictionary), when in
> Japan it is usually called "fujisan" and rarely "fujiyama"?
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Japanese, it is usually in KATAKANA and in one of the following
> phrases.
>
> --- "geisya, fujiyama"
> (sarcastic reference to Westerners' outdated image of Japan)
As one netter points out, in English this Mountain should be Mt. Fuji like
Mt. Rainier, WA, USA. In Japanese, it should be Fujisan (all characters are
read in "on" yomi) while Asamayama is read all in "kun" yomi. The way someone
reads Fujisan as Fujiyama, i.e., on yomi and kun yomi are mixed, is called
"Juubako yomi". (I don't know the origin of this term, but Juubako is a kind
of a portable Japanese food carrying box and can be piled one over the other,
i.e., "kasaneru" or "Juu" in on yomi)
>
> --- "fujiyama no tobiuo"
> (referring to some Japanese swimmer in some Olympic games
> somewhere.)
>
records for a 400 m and 1500 m free style heat around 1948 in Los Angeles, the Los
Angeles Times (I think) called him a flying fish of Fujiyama. Then the
Japanese news media translated it simply into "Fujiyama no tobiuo". Tobiuo
means a flying fish. Japan like Germany was banned from the London Olympics
in 1948. So Furuhashi could not participate in this Olympics. By the time
Japan was allowed to participate in the Helsinki Olympics in 1952, his prime
had passed and he was the last in a 400 m free style competition. Mr. Furuhashi
is the current President of the Japan Olympics Commission and reelected for
the fourth term recently.
-----
------------------------------------------------------------
Satoru Miyazaki 米国
Pesticide Research Center ミシガン州立大学
Michigan State University 農薬研究所
U.S.A. 宮崎覚
miya...@pilot.msu.edu
Arthur Edwards
MacProgrammer) wrote:
* Not so very long ago, whu...@cco.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang) said...
*
* It appears that the =tendancy= is to give all characters in the name
* their "on" pronunciation, or all the "kun". I'm not good enough at
* Japanese yet to recognize from a romaji transcription which it is. (But
* I'm rather certain about "Fujisan" [on-on-on] and "Matsuyama" [kun-kun].)
mount fuji would be fuji-san, ie. the san is the onyomi reading of the kanji.
fujiyama is the kunyomi reading, which would apply if it was written
partly in hiragana.
--
I know it's really difficult to explain, but if you try real hard I'm sure you'll get it. These are not opinions, I couldn't even spell the word until a purple rabbit whispered in my ear. Or was it a pink unicorn? Either way I'm not old enough to have opinions yet. And I wouldn't tell you if I did. So there.
Ito Kazumitsu
> In article <D5oAp...@rci.ripco.com>, Scott Reynolds <reyn...@ripco.com> writes:
>
> |> The names of mountains in Japanese are always XXXX-san (with the "san"
> |> being the word for mountain, not the honorific). "Fuji-san" simply
> |> conforms with this usage.
>
> Just to be pedantic, there are lots of mountains that are "yama" rather than
> "san", though "san" seems to be more common, at least from my experience.
With reference to the discussion on the names of mountains in Japan,
I would like to give some data for your consideration.
Attached is a list of mountain names collected from the index pages of
Aono, Hirukawa: Koutou Chizuchou, 1978, Ninomiya Shoten, Tokyo
(An atlas for high school students).
According to this list, Japanese mountain names can be sorted into
three groupes:
Group Number of cases
------------------------------------------
Take group (-Take or -Dake) 42 38%
San group (-San or -Zan) 36 32%
Yama group (-Yama) 30 27%
Others 3 3%
Others are:
Ezo-Fuji : Fuji in Ezo (Hokkaido). There are many XXX-Fuji's in Japan,
most of which are aliases of some mountains. For example,
Hirao-Fuji is an alisas for Hirao-Yama in Saku, Nagano-Ken.
Kamuinupuri : a name of Ainu origin
Dai-Sen : The Kanji for -Sen is the same as that of -Yama or -San.
But the pronunciation is special for this mountain.
The following is the list of mountains in Japan.
Note:
1. The original book does not have furigana on the names.
So any mistakes in the data are Ito's fault.
2. The original book gives names of famous mountains only.
As I see it, many less famous mountains often have -Yama
in their names. Including such mountains will give a completely
different result. "Take" means a high and steep mountain.
So it is natural that Take group should have the highest
percentage in the list of famous mountains.
---- cut here ----
akagi yama
aka dake
asama yama
asitaka yama
azumaya san
aso zan
adatara yama
azuma yama
amagi san
iizuna yama
iide yama
iino yama
iimori yama
ishizuchi yama
izuga take
iwaki san
iwate san
usu zan
udo san
unebi yama
unzen dake
ezo-fuji
ena san
ebosi dake
oakan dake
ousaka yama
oodaigahara yama
osore zan
ontake san
kaimon dake
kasatori yama
kashimayariga take
gatu san (Gassan)
kamabusa yama
kamuinupuri
kanpuu zan
kirishima yama
kujuu san (juu meaning KASANARU)
kujuu san (juu meaning SUMU)
kumotori yama
kurobegorou dake
kouya san
kokusiga take
gozaisyo yama
kobushiga take
komaga take
zaou san
sanbonyari dake
jiiga take
shizuga take
syakaga take
joune dake
shirane san
shirouma take
daisetsu zan
dai sen
dainichi dake
taira dake
tate yama
tanigawa dake
tanzawa san
chausu dake
chacha dake
choukai san
tsukuba san
tsubakuro dake
tsurugi dake
tennou zan
togakushi yama
tokachi dake
torigata yama
naeba yama
nasu dake
nantai san
nutakukamuushippe yama
nokogiri yama
norikura dake
haku san
haguro yama
hakone yama
hanamagari yama
hayachine yama
haruna san
bandai san
hiuchi dake
hiei zan
hiko yama
fuji san
houei zan
houraiji san
hotaka dake
horosiri dake
honshirane san
mikasa yama
mitake san
minamikomaga take
myougi san
myoukou san
meakan dake
yakushi dake
yake dake
yatsuga take
yariga take
yariga take
yuubari dake
yuurappu dake
yoiti dake
youtei zan
rausu dake
rebun dake
rokkou san
---- cut here ----
--
*******************************************************************
日立市在住 伊藤一光 k...@maczuka.hitachi.ibaraki.jp
Ito Kazumitsu Hitachi, Ibaraki, JAPAN
L. William Franke
: In article <3kfulj$6...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
: (TANAKA Tomoyuki) writes:
: >
: > --------------------------------------------------------------------
: > question: why is Mt. Fuji called in American English "Fujiyama" much
: > more often than "Fujisan" (check your dictionary), when in
: > Japan it is usually called "fujisan" and rarely "fujiyama"?
: > --------------------------------------------------------------------
: Why do Americans call rice wine "saki" more often than "sake"? Or "harikari"
: more often than "harakiri"? Or "karey-oki" more often than "karaoke"?
Back in the early days of television, there was also a skit put on by
comedian Red Buttons -- I think he had his own show, "The Red Buttons
Show," somewhere back in the early or mid 50s -- in which he impersonated
a Japanese and sang a song or did a chant about "Fujiyama, Fujiyama,
Fujiyama Beer" with a picture of Mt. Fuji in the background. He did this
every week for at least a year on his own show and also on other
variety/comedy shows before and after he had his own show. Millions of
Americans watched and learned.
TANAKA Tomoyuki
>
>Why do Americans call rice wine "saki" more often than "sake"? Or "harikari"
>more often than "harakiri"? Or "karey-oki" more often than "karaoke"?
these things can be explained by English phonology.
certain sound-combinations are hard to pronounce.
have people noticed that many Americans have trouble pronouncing the
word "nuclear" and pronounce it as "nyookyuler"?
it's even in the on-line Webster:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
nu-cle-ar \'n(y):u-kle^--er, /-kye-ler\ adj (1846)
1: of, relating to, or constituting a nucleus
2: of, relating to, or utilizing the atomic nucleus, atomic energy,
the atom bomb, or atomic power
USAGE Though disapproved of by many, pronunciations ending in
\-kye-ler\ have been found in widespread use among educated
speakers including scientists, lawyers, professors,
congressmen, U.S. cabinet members and at least one U.S.
president and one vice president. While most common in the
U.S., these pronunciations have also been heard from British
and Canadian speakers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
how about pronouncing the word "ask" as "aks"?
this "Fujiyama" -- "Fujisan" thing seems to be a historical accident
caused by the newspaper articles on the swimmer Furuhashi and the
comedian Red Buttons (thanks again!) and maybe other things.
question #2: why is the word "koan" so well-known in the USA whereas
in Japan "zen-mondou" is more common?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
ko-an \'ko^--,a^:n\ n [Jp ko^-an, fr. ko^- public + an proposition]
(1945) :a paradox to be meditated upon that is used to train
Zen Buddhist monks to abandon ultimate dependence on reason and
to force them into gaining sudden intuitive enlightenment
--------------------------------------------------------------------
my guess is that maybe it's because of books by D.T.Suzuki
(Suzuki Daisetsu).
David Luke
|> Interesting!
|>
|> In the article <D64x7...@icluna.kobe-u.ac.jp> of newsgroup soc.culture.japan,sci.lang.japan,alt.usage.english
|> t927...@kobe-u.ac.jp wrote
[list of names of ken with "yama" in them]
|> There are no names of "SAN", but only of "YAMA".
But then, I think all of the traditional "ken" use only names with kun-yomi,
so of course there are no "san"s.
(Are their any ken with on-yomi names? I can't think of any.)
Masumi Abe
>I don't know why, but I always say "Yamate-sen" instead of "Yamanote-sen"
I used Yamate-sen until I was corrected by a native Tokyoites. Since then, I've been using Yamanote-sen, I believe, at least when I say it conciously.
>Likewise I have always said "Touyako"
>(Lake Touya in Hokkaido), but I found out the Hokkaido natives say "Douyako".
I am from Hokkaido, and traditionally or among older generation, it is Touyako or more like Tooyako. Younger generation and people from "Naichi" (main part of Japan) are learning those names from just reading Kanji. Hassamu in Sapporo used to be Hassabu, and Asahigawa used to be Asahikawa. Most of place names in Hokkaido is Ainu origin, but for newer people they are only kanji names.
>I have always thought "Ibaragi" ken is correct, but apparently it is "Ibaraki"
>ken (Ibaraki prefecture).
I must be in a similar generation with Mr (Dr?). Miyazaki.
Among older generations in Tokyo, Akihabara is simply Akiba. Tokyo natives don't usually call the place with full name. Akiba-ga-hara theory sounds believable to me.
sxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsx
Masumi Abe Internet: a...@kaleida.com
Kaleida Labs, Inc. AppleLink: ABE.M
1055-B Joaquin Rd. Tel: 415-335-2011
Mt. View, CA 94043 Fax: 415-335-2096
sxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsxsx
y
Tomomi Marukawa
Not long ago, someone said these things below.
(It is a pity that I can't find that article now....)
:Okayama(Okayama Prefecture) or Yamagata(Yamagata Prefecture) has
:something to do with mountain? Mountains are nearby?
I thought this question was very interesting, so I looked the origins
of the names of the prefecture which include the word,"yama"
(means mountain).
Yamagata-ken ----- "yamagata" means the place closer to the mountain.
Toyama-ken ----- "toyama" seems to have come from the name of one
temple,named "toyama-ji". This "ji" means temple.
Yamanashi-ken ----- "yamanashi" means the pears which grow in the
mountain.
Wakayama-ken ----- Long,long time ago,the district which is now called
"wakayama" was called "okayama". "okayama" existed
at that time already. It is confusing,so they changed
it into "wakayama".
Okayama-ken ----- "okayama" means the small hill.
Yamaguchi-ken ----- "yamaguchi" means the entrance to the mountain.
In Yamaguchi-ken ,there is Yamaguchi basin.
Seeing these,you will recognize that these names has a lot to do with
the mountains. (Except Toyama-ken) I think all these names has come
from the geographical features nearby.
--------------------------------
Tomomi Marukawa
t927...@keen50.seg.kobe-u.ac.jp
--------------------------------
David Luke
|> I still cringe whenever I hear someone discuss the beauty of "Kiyoto" or a
|> Japanese woman in a "kimona".
|>
|> You'd think that some of it would be actively challenged. Why do Japanese
|> manufacturers allow Americans to butcher their company names?
And why do they do it themselves? If you've ever taken a Shinkansen route
that goes through Kyoto, you've had to suffer through the English language
"Kiyoto" in the automatic announcements on the train...
|> Were I to
|> properly pronounce the sentence "I left my Nikon in my Honda.", I doubt the
|> listener would understand what I was trying to say.
My wife's maiden name is "Handa", and like clockwork, everybody who hears that
for the first time says something like, "oh, are you related to the founder
of the car comapany?" She's started pronouncing it like "hand" to avoid the
questions...
kenji
In the article <D64x7...@icluna.kobe-u.ac.jp> of newsgroup soc.culture.japan,sci.lang.japan,alt.usage.english
t927...@kobe-u.ac.jp wrote
| Yamagata-ken ----- "yamagata" means the place closer to the mountain.
| Toyama-ken ----- "toyama" seems to have come from the name of one
| temple,named "toyama-ji". This "ji" means temple.
| Yamanashi-ken ----- "yamanashi" means the pears which grow in the
| mountain.
| Wakayama-ken ----- Long,long time ago,the district which is now called
| "wakayama" was called "okayama". "okayama" existed
| at that time already. It is confusing,so they changed
| it into "wakayama".
| Okayama-ken ----- "okayama" means the small hill.
| Yamaguchi-ken ----- "yamaguchi" means the entrance to the mountain.
| In Yamaguchi-ken ,there is Yamaguchi basin.
|
| Seeing these,you will recognize that these names has a lot to do with
| the mountains. (Except Toyama-ken) I think all these names has come
| from the geographical features nearby.
There are no names of "SAN", but only of "YAMA".
Kenji
Daan Sandee
[many examples of Americans mangling Japanese names deleted ]
>I still cringe whenever I hear someone discuss the beauty of "Kiyoto" or a
>Japanese woman in a "kimona".
Ah, but you haven't lived until you've heard an anchorperson speak of
Osaka as if it's the beginning of the Star-Spangled Banner ("Osaka new see").
Daan Sandee san...@cmns.think.com
Mountain View, CA 94041
Steve Sundberg
: Every year when some local Japanese businesses hold their Spring festival, a
: news anchorman for *years* mentioned the wonderful "banzai" trees displayed
: there. Only last year did he finally get it right. Surely he must have been
: corrected repeatedly.
: I still cringe whenever I hear someone discuss the beauty of "Kiyoto" or a
: Japanese woman in a "kimona".
And don't forget geisha-- pronounced 'gee-sha.'
: You'd think that some of it would be actively challenged. Why do Japanese
: manufacturers allow Americans to butcher their company names? Were I to
: properly pronounce the sentence "I left my Nikon in my Honda.", I doubt the
: listener would understand what I was trying to say.
I gave up pronouncing Nikon correctly many years ago, and only do so now
around old classmates from Japan.
: Oh, well, maybe I'll go over to Makudonarudo and think about it...
And have a hanbaaga? How about a game of beesuboru afterwards?
--
******************************************************************************
* P E R C E P T I O N I S R E A L I T Y *
******************************************************************************
Jim Breen
: Why do Americans call rice wine "saki" more often than "sake"? Or "harikari"
: more often than "harakiri"? Or "karey-oki" more often than "karaoke"?
If I was a stirrer, which mercifully I am not, I could well ask why the
Japanese pronounce milk "miruku", Perth "paasu", Sydney "Shidonee", etc.
etc.
--
Jim Breen [ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学]
Department of Robotics & Digital Technology. Monash University.
Clayton VIC 3168 Australia (p) +61 3 905 3298 (f) +61 3 905 3574
j.b...@rdt.monash.edu.au [http://www.rdt.monash.edu.au/‾jwb/]
Kim Wallace
: : Oh, well, maybe I'll go over to Makudonarudo and think about it...
: And have a hanbaaga? How about a game of beesuboru afterwards?
^^^^^^^^^
Isn't that yakyuu? I don't think I've heard beesuboru -- is it a common
word?
David Luke
|> Glen F. Pankow (gl...@news.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
|>
|> : Why do Americans call rice wine "saki" more often than "sake"? Or "harikari"
|> : more often than "harakiri"? Or "karey-oki" more often than "karaoke"?
|>
|> Japanese pronounce milk "miruku", Perth "paasu", Sydney "Shidonee", etc.
|> etc.
This looks to me to be a different issue. "miruku" is certainly the best
mapping of the English "milk" to the more limited set of phonemes available
in Japanese. The English mispronunciations of Japanese words are not. A
better comparison might be the Japanese "ion" for "ion", despite the fact
that "aion" would be better pronunciation-wise. The motivated student will
be able to list several more examples of this type... :)
kenji
lu...@boi.HP.COM wrote
| But then, I think all of the traditional "ken" use only names with kun-yomi,
| so of course there are no "san"s.
|
| (Are their any ken with on-yomi names? I can't think of any.)
Well, I recalled my memory, and got only one example of kun-yomi of "KEN",
which is AGATA. This is very old usage, say in Nara era (about 1200-1300
years ago), and I think it is dead for a long time.
Kenji
Shimpei Yamashita
kenji <oka...@center.osakafu-u.ac.jp> wrote:
:In the article <D669...@boi.hp.com> of newsgroup soc.culture.japan,sci.lang.japan,alt.usage.english
You missed the point--he was asking if there are names of prefectures
that are in on-yomi, not anything about reading of the character "ken"
itself.
As for the original question, Gunma, Kouchi, Shiga and Saga come to
mind. I may have missed a few, since I don't have a map with me right
now. I guess you can argue that Kyoto, Tokyo and Hokkaido aren't ken
("prefecture"), so I won't include them on the list.
--
Shimpei Yamashita, Stanford University shi...@leland.stanford.edu
Satoru Miyazaki
> In article <D6A6B...@center.osakafu-u.ac.jp>,
> kenji <oka...@center.osakafu-u.ac.jp> wrote:
> :In the article <D669...@boi.hp.com> of newsgroup soc.culture.japan,sci.lang.japan,alt.usage.english
> :lu...@boi.HP.COM wrote
> mind. I may have missed a few, since I don't have a map with me right
> now. I guess you can argue that Kyoto, Tokyo and Hokkaido aren't ken
> ("prefecture"), so I won't include them on the list.
>
> --
> Shimpei Yamashita, Stanford University shi...@leland.stanford.edu
>
>
Douglas Harper
|Steve Sundberg (dee...@mm.com) wrote:
|
|: : Oh, well, maybe I'll go over to Makudonarudo and think about it...
|
|: And have a hanbaaga? How about a game of beesuboru afterwards?
|Isn't that yakyuu? I don't think I've heard beesuboru -- is it a common
|word?
|--
|Kim Wallace
|
|kim...@dax.cs.wisc.edu UPL Coordinator and former Stunt Baby
|wal...@cs.wisc.edu http://yar.cs.wisc.edu/~kimuchi
|"Very early in my life it was too late."
Wow! Hang around the net long enough and you run into kimchi and
baseball as naturalized Japanese citizens in the same posting.
Makes me thirsty for some of that "all-American" Stevens Point beer.
--
Douglas Harper | Are you a turtle?
c...@oracorp.com |
+1 (607) 277-2020 |
David Luke
|> In article <D6A6B...@center.osakafu-u.ac.jp>,
|> kenji <oka...@center.osakafu-u.ac.jp> wrote:
|> : | (Are their any ken with on-yomi names? I can't think of any.)
|> As for the original question, Gunma, Kouchi, Shiga and Saga come to
|> mind. I may have missed a few, since I don't have a map with me right
|> now.
Ah. Yes, I guess there are some. Apparantly, I've spent too much time
hanging out in the Kanto to have the on-yomied names come quickly to mind. :)
|> I guess you can argue that Kyoto, Tokyo and Hokkaido aren't ken
|> ("prefecture"), so I won't include them on the list.
That was the intent of my question -- I thought of Kyoto, Tokyo, and Hokkaido
as potential examples, but those all seem to be entities that have evolved
into ken-like status, rather than being ken in the same sense that the kens
named ken are kens (did that make any sense?).
Shimpei Yamashita
Satoru Miyazaki <miya...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
:>
:Didn't you forget Osaka? 1 to, 1 dou, 2 fu, 4? ken.
"O" and "saka" are kun-yomi. :-)
Blaine Erickson
lu...@boi.HP.COM (David Luke) wrote:
>In article <3lcr8q$t...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>, j...@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au
>(Jim Breen) writes:
>|> : Glen F. Pankow (gl...@news.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
>|> :
>|> : Why do Americans call rice wine "saki" more often than "sake"?
>|> : Or "harikar i"
>|> : more often than "harakiri"? Or "karey-oki" more often than "karaoke"?
>|>
>|> If I was a stirrer, which mercifully I am not, I could well ask why the
>|> Japanese pronounce milk "miruku", Perth "paasu", Sydney "Shidonee", etc.
>|> etc.
>This looks to me to be a different issue. "miruku" is certainly the
>best mapping of the English "milk" to the more limited set of
>phonemes available in Japanese. The English mispronunciations of
>Japanese words are not. A better comparison might be the Japanese
>"ion" for "ion", despite the fact that "aion" would be better
>pronunciation-wise.
Actually, "mispronunciations" in both directions are the *same* issue:
phonology. In each case, monolingual native speakers adapt foreign
words to native pronunciation norms. Looking at "sake," the "eh"
sound of Japanese *never* occurs in an open syllable in English; only
"ey" (as in "hey") occurs. Further, English reduces vowels in
unaccented (or less-than-primarily-accented) syllables, so that "ey"
often becomes "ee," as in "Mondee" instead of "Monday."
^^ ^^
>"miruku" is certainly the
>best mapping of the English "milk" to the more limited set of
>phonemes available in Japanese.
Just to pick nits here, but "mirk" would be the best mapping of
*phonemes.* However, words have more than just phonemes; they also
have phonology and prosody (and distribution and meaning and...) In any
case, "mirk" violates Japanese syllable structure and is
phonologically impossible in modern standard Japanese, so we make do
with "miruku" instead. Bonus question: what's the difference between
"miruku" and "gyuunyuu"? (Yeah, I know the answer, but I want to pose
the question and maybe get some people thinking.)
Blaine Erickson
eric...@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Shadow
>From: eric...@uhunix3.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Blaine Erickson)
>Subject: Re: "Fujiyama" vs. "Fujisan"
>Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 20:11:38 GMT
>lu...@boi.HP.COM (David Luke) wrote:
>>In article <3lcr8q$t...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>, j...@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au
>>(Jim Breen) writes:
>>|> : Glen F. Pankow (gl...@news.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
>>|> :
>>|> : Why do Americans call rice wine "saki" more often than "sake"?
>>|> : Or "harikar i"
>>|> : more often than "harakiri"? Or "karey-oki" more often than "karaoke"?
>>|>
>Blaine Erickson
>eric...@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Could the answer be that one comes from Formost while the other comes from
Meiji?
Kim Wallace
: with "miruku" instead. Bonus question: what's the difference between
: "miruku" and "gyuunyuu"? (Yeah, I know the answer, but I want to pose
: the question and maybe get some people thinking.)
Gyuunyuu comes out of cows. I'm not sure what exactly miruku is...I think
I've only heard it on TV. Coffee creamer?
al...@zorro.informatik.uni-leipzig.de
This looks to me to be a different issue. "miruku" is certainly the best
mapping of the English "milk" to the more limited set of phonemes available
in Japanese. The English mispronunciations of Japanese words are not. A
better comparison might be the Japanese "ion" for "ion", despite the fact
that "aion" would be better pronunciation-wise. The motivated student will
be able to list several more examples of this type... :)
Though I heartily agree with the first part, I can't agree with the
last. 'ion' is not an English word *in origin* and the Japanese ion is
much more right than the English version. They chose the Latin way of
pronouncing it, certainly because some German influence. I always find
it odd that the Japanese read Greek letters the same as the English,
which is not so very good, IMHO. Makes "pi" the same as "pie" though,
which may be better in education.
But this just goes to show that there is usually not much sense in
talking about how people pronounce words they did not create
themselves. In some sense many English words come from German and
nobody here would find it odd that the English have a "k" in the end
of "milk", where we have a "ch". It's just that the English took the
word for their usage and changed it to what seemed better to
them. Same goes for "miruku" in Japanese.
One might argue that there is still gyuunyuu and since miruku is
actually supposed to be the English word it should sound more like it.
This might be O.K. for milk, but I remember one evening in Tokyo where
somebody asked me whether "ibu" was the whole day or just the evening.
You might guess that I though the question rather out of point. It
then turned out that "ibu" was what other folks call "Christmas Eve"
(you recognise the method), so a word that should be English has
changed it's content completely. There are lots of such words, like
"saabisu" (*was* service), "guraundo" (ground), "arubaito"
(Arbeit=work) and so on.
Alex
Onizuka KENTARO
>>>Just to pick nits here, but "mirk" would be the best mapping of
>>>*phonemes.* However, words have more than just phonemes; they also
>>>have phonology and prosody (and distribution and meaning and...) In any
>>>case, "mirk" violates Japanese syllable structure and is
>>>phonologically impossible in modern standard Japanese, so we make do
>>>with "miruku" instead. Bonus question: what's the difference between
>>>"miruku" and "gyuunyuu"? (Yeah, I know the answer, but I want to pose
>>>the question and maybe get some people thinking.)
>>
>>>Blaine Erickson
>>>eric...@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
>>
>>Could the answer be that one comes from Formost while the other comes from
>>Meiji?
Yes. English is not only vocabulary donnar to Japanese. "Pompu" in
Japanese (meaning is "pump") is from Dutch "Pomp." The sacrid
people's names in testamants in Japanese are very different from those
in Englisn. The present pope's name is "Yohane pauro nisei" not "Jon
Poru nisei." They are mainly from Latin and dropping causational
terminals such as -s -us -is etc. Many western words were first from
Portuguise, and then from Dutch. And then from German and it is today
that tremendous amount of English vocabulary is flowing into Japanese.
The Words for music are mainly from Italian (e.g. fortessimo,
crescendo, piano, alto, largo,,,) The words for Fashons, cloths design
are from French.
And these days Japanese people are interested in French and Italian
words.
Kentaro
Daan Sandee
>
>This looks to me to be a different issue. "miruku" is certainly the best
>mapping of the English "milk" to the more limited set of phonemes available
>in Japanese. The English mispronunciations of Japanese words are not. A
>better comparison might be the Japanese "ion" for "ion", despite the fact
>that "aion" would be better pronunciation-wise. The motivated student will
>be able to list several more examples of this type... :)
And why are you assuming that Japanese "ion" is a transcription of
English "ion" ? What do you think the rest of the world calls it ?
It is a perfectly proper Greek word, neuter present participle of the verb
"to go", and is pronounced "ee-oan" in all major languages of the world
except English. Why should the Japanese follow the English custom of
mangling vowels of non-English words, like "sakee" for "sake", or "eye-on"
for "ion"?
Mark Odegard
[snip]
>And why are you assuming that Japanese "ion" is a transcription of
>English "ion"? What do you think the rest of the world calls it ?
>It is a perfectly proper Greek word, neuter present participle of
>the verb "to go", and is pronounced "ee-oan" in all major languages
>of the world except English. Why should the Japanese follow the
>English custom of mangling vowels of non-English words, like "sakee"
>for "sake", or "eye-on" for "ion"?
A word like "ion" does not immediately suggest a "correct" pronunciation
such as /'iAn/ or /'iA.n/ or /'iOn/. English dislikes this class of
diphthongs (two long vowels). It's just not how vowels work in English.
/'aIAn/ is standard (for me at least), though I suspect /'aIOn/ and
/'aiA.n/ are also heard. Compare "iodine" (USA pronunciation), for the
pattern for words beginning in -io.
The moon of Jupiter (or it is Saturn), Io is another example. As an
American speaker, I want to say Eye-Oh, as will most of my countrymen.
Only Carl Sagan et cie will insist on /'iO/.
"Iambic", /ai'ambik/ demonstrates how English "naturally" approaches
such words. And yes, the late Mr. Fleming *should* have pronounced his
first name /'ai@n/.
Other such words: iatrogenic; iota (unless you have taken Greek, then
/'jOt@/); Ionic.
As for Mr. Sandee's choler over the "English custom of mangling vowels
of non-English words", well; /sEst lA vaI/ as the French say.
Satoru Miyazaki
> In article <3lsl16$q...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
> mlo...@ix.netcom.com "Mark Odegard" writes:
>
> >such words. And yes, the late Mr. Fleming *should* have pronounced his
> >first name /'ai@n/.
>
>
> --
> Ken Moore (K...@hpsl.demon.co.uk)
>
Is "Scotch" only reserved for whiskey or whisky? I never heard Scottish
and Soda.
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
miya...@pilot.msu.edu "Satoru Miyazaki" writes:
> In Article <797070...@hpsl.demon.co.uk> "K...@hpsl.demon.co.uk (Ken Moore)"
> says:
> > In article <3lsl16$q...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
> > mlo...@ix.netcom.com "Mark Odegard" writes:
> >
> > >such words. And yes, the late Mr. Fleming *should* have pronounced his
> > >first name /'ai@n/.
> >
> > . . . and Ian is a Scottish name.
> >
> Is "Scotch" only reserved for whiskey or whisky? I never heard Scottish
> and Soda.
"Scotch" is an adjective that supposedly may only be applied to three
things:
1) Whisky (NEVER, ever, whiskEy: that's Irish, Bourbon or Rye)
2) Egg (a concoction of forcemeat moulded around a hard-boiled egg)
3) Mist (what the Irish call "a soft day")
If you want an adjective to describe someone or something (other than the
above) that comes from Scotland, then you must use either "Scottish" or
"Scots". If you don't, you'll upset a lot of Scotsmen.
(Would someone like to tell that to the Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing
Company? ;-)
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} b...@dsl.co.uk
Dragonhill Systems Ltd Faringdon (+44 1367) 242363 (Fax & Answerphone)
Bramble Passage, 20 Coxwell Street, FARINGDON, Oxon, SN7 7HA, United Kingdom
Satoru Miyazaki
> In article <19950405083...@miyazaki.prc.msu.edu>
> miya...@pilot.msu.edu "Satoru Miyazaki" writes:
>
> > In Article <797070...@hpsl.demon.co.uk> "K...@hpsl.demon.co.uk (Ken Moore)"
> > says:
> > > In article <3lsl16$q...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
> > > mlo...@ix.netcom.com "Mark Odegard" writes:
> "Scotch" is an adjective that supposedly may only be applied to three
> things:
> 1) Whisky (NEVER, ever, whiskEy: that's Irish, Bourbon or Rye)
> 2) Egg (a concoction of forcemeat moulded around a hard-boiled egg)
> 3) Mist (what the Irish call "a soft day")
>
> If you want an adjective to describe someone or something (other than the
> above) that comes from Scotland, then you must use either "Scottish" or
> "Scots". If you don't, you'll upset a lot of Scotsmen.
>
> (Would someone like to tell that to the Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing
> Company? ;-)
> --
and a "Scottish" tape does not work as well as "their" tape. (^_^)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Moore
>Is "Scotch" only reserved for whiskey or whisky? I never heard Scottish
>and Soda.
Most Scots people would say that: "Scotch" is whisky and nothing else.
"Whiskey" is US or Irish, I believe. However, you may find someone
occasionally who doesn't mind the term. My mother-in-law calls herself
Scotch.
--
Ken Moore (K...@hpsl.demon.co.uk)
Wei-Hwa Huang
>"Scotch" is an adjective that supposedly may only be applied to three
>things:
> 1) Whisky (NEVER, ever, whiskEy: that's Irish, Bourbon or Rye)
> 2) Egg (a concoction of forcemeat moulded around a hard-boiled egg)
> 3) Mist (what the Irish call "a soft day")
>
>If you want an adjective to describe someone or something (other than the
>above) that comes from Scotland, then you must use either "Scottish" or
>"Scots". If you don't, you'll upset a lot of Scotsmen.
How about "Scottish" tape?
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
whu...@cco.caltech.edu "Wei-Hwa Huang" writes:
Why didn't you read the WHOLE of my post: or was my closing sentence too
subtle for you (hint: who *makes* Scotch Tape(tm))?
P. K. W. Tan
: >
: Is "Scotch" only reserved for whiskey or whisky? I never heard Scottish
: and Soda.
No, `Scotch' is reserved for WHISKY. WHISKEY is `Irish'.
Of course, there's also `Scotch broth' and `Scotch tape'!
Peter Tan
Robert Hart
:
:>Is "Scotch" only reserved for whiskey or whisky? I never heard Scottish
:>and Soda.
:
:Most Scots people would say that: "Scotch" is whisky and nothing else.
:occasionally who doesn't mind the term. My mother-in-law calls herself
:Scotch.
:
:--
:Ken Moore (K...@hpsl.demon.co.uk)
What About Scotch eggs?
Robert Hart
Ken Moore
rh...@wnet.gov.edmonton.ab.ca "Robert Hart" writes:
>What About Scotch eggs?
We really need a Scot to decide on this, but I suspect it may not be a
Scottish usage; likewise "mist".
We had a more generic thread on this question some weeks ago, ie the
rarety of people using their own nationality as a word in the same
way as other nationalities do.
eg US "english" = UK "screw" or "side" (billiards term)
UK "French horn" = Fr "cor"
--
Ken Moore (K...@hpsl.demon.co.uk)
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
K...@hpsl.demon.co.uk "Ken Moore" writes:
> In article <D6MAy...@champ.wnet.gov.edmonton.ab.ca>
> rh...@wnet.gov.edmonton.ab.ca "Robert Hart" writes:
>
> >What About Scotch eggs?
>
> We really need a Scot to decide on this, but I suspect it may not be a
> Scottish usage; likewise "mist".
After making my posting listing the three acceptable uses of Scotch, I
asked my tame (it's very difficult getting them this way) Scotsman
colleague whether he would wish to add or subtract from my list, and he
agreed that it was exactly right. I couldn't draw him on Scotch Tape
though! Scotch broth should be Scots, he asserts.
One problem is that in some lallans dialects, Scotch is used by the Scots
themselves (and I don't mean to gargle with;-)
> We had a more generic thread on this question some weeks ago, ie the
> rarety of people using their own nationality as a word in the same
> way as other nationalities do.
>
> eg US "english" = UK "screw" or "side" (billiards term)
Any good billiards player would assert that screw and side are actually
different, both in application and effect.
> UK "French horn" = Fr "cor"
But of course a Cor Anglais is an entirely different instrument.
The one of these I really adore (for its inanity) is:
UK "French letter" = Fr "Capot anglais" (and of course a Dutch Cap,
whilst functionally
equivalent, in part, is
not related!)
(I have a vague feeling that the French also have a phrase involving
"English..." equivalent to our "French leave", but can't remember it
off-hand.)
Mark Odegard
writes:
>
>Ken Moore (K...@hpsl.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
>: We had a more generic thread on this question some weeks ago, ie the
>: rarety of people using their own nationality as a word in the same
>: way as other nationalities do.
>
>: eg US "english" = UK "screw" or "side" (billiards term)
>: UK "French horn" = Fr "cor"
>
>What about `cor anglais', `cr`eme anglaise' v. custard?
And the "English horn" is not even a horn but an oboe-like woodwind.
"Horn" unmodified means the French Horn, as with Mozart's and R.
Strauss's horn concerti.
Gerald B Mathias
: Yes. English is not only vocabulary donnar to Japanese. "Pompu" in
: Japanese (meaning is "pump") is from Dutch "Pomp." ...
And speaking of "donors," the Japanese got the word 'danna' from almost
the same place English got "donor."
Bart Mathias
P. K. W. Tan
: We had a more generic thread on this question some weeks ago, ie the
: rarety of people using their own nationality as a word in the same
: way as other nationalities do.
: eg US "english" = UK "screw" or "side" (billiards term)
: UK "French horn" = Fr "cor"
What about `cor anglais', `cr`eme anglaise' v. custard?
PT
Ken Moore
b...@dsl.co.uk "Brian {Hamilton Kelly}" writes:
>In article <797258...@hpsl.demon.co.uk>
> K...@hpsl.demon.co.uk "Ken Moore" writes:
>> eg US "english" = UK "screw" or "side" (billiards term)
>
>Any good billiards player would assert that screw and side are actually
>different, both in application and effect.
Agreed, but I don't know whether "english" is both or, if not, which.
--
Ken Moore (K...@hpsl.demon.co.uk)
Ken Moore
mlo...@ix.netcom.com "Mark Odegard" writes:
>"Horn" unmodified means the French Horn, as with Mozart's and R.
>Strauss's horn concerti.
Yes, among orchestral musicians, but in British brass bands (not
military or wind bands) "horn" would usually mean tenor saxhorn -
occasionally baritone saxhorn - while in jazz circles it means any
of trumpet, trombone, saxophone or clarinet, possibly others.
--
Ken Moore (K...@hpsl.demon.co.uk)
Eric Canton
b...@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes :
> The one of these I really adore (for its inanity) is:
> UK "French letter" = Fr "Capot anglais" (and of course a Dutch Cap,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It's "Capote anglaise" (feminine noun, while "pre'servatif" is masculine;
go figure ...)
> whilst functionally
> equivalent, in part, is
> not related!)
> (I have a vague feeling that the French also have a phrase involving
> "English..." equivalent to our "French leave", but can't remember it
> off-hand.)
That's right : "Filer a` l'anglaise."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric CANTON ILOG (Paris) | Qui Deus a dune' escie"nce Marie
url: http://www.ilog.fr | e de parler bone eloquence de
or http://www.ilog.com | ne s'en deit taisir ne celer France
tel: +33 1 46 63 66 66 | ainz se deit voluntiers mustrer.
fax: +33 1 46 63 15 82 |
2ul9m...@vms.csd.mu.edu
In article <19950331100...@miyazaki.prc.msu.edu>, miya...@pilot.msu.edu (Satoru Miyazaki) writes:
>In Article <3lgg6d$9...@nntp.Stanford.EDU> "shi...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Shimpei Yamashita)" says:
>> In article <D6A6B...@center.osakafu-u.ac.jp>,
>> kenji <oka...@center.osakafu-u.ac.jp> wrote:
>> :lu...@boi.HP.COM wrote
>> As for the original question, Gunma, Kouchi, Shiga and Saga come to
>> mind. I may have missed a few, since I don't have a map with me right
>> ("prefecture"), so I won't include them on the list.
>>
>i want to learn japanese. can you teach me samuelsun?
Maynard Hogg
> > How about "Scottish" tape?
> Why didn't you read the WHOLE of my post: or was my closing sentence too
> subtle for you (hint: who *makes* Scotch Tape(tm))?
Sumitomo 3M? <g>
===
|\^/| Maynard Hogg
_|\| |/|_ #306, 4-30-10 Yoga, Setagaya-ku, Tokyo, Japan 158
> < Fax: +81-3-3700-7399
>_./|\._< Internet: may...@gol.com
Unsolicited commercial electronic mail sent to this address will be
proofread at a cost of US$200/hour (half-hour minimum).
Looking for Internet access in Japan? E-mail in...@gol.com
Maynard Hogg
> >Is "Scotch" only reserved for whiskey or whisky? I never heard Scottish
> >and Soda.
We pedants insist that Scotch == Scottish whisky.
> Most Scots people would say that: "Scotch" is whisky and nothing
> else. "Whiskey" is US or Irish, I believe. However, you may find
> someone occasionally who doesn't mind the term. My mother-in-law
> calls herself Scotch.
My grandfather's generation calls itself Scottish or Scotch--you are
what you've drink?--but maybe they've been in Canada too long. (They
were *born* in Scotland, but that was a lot of Scotch down the gullet
ago.)
Ash Nallawalla
I'd hazard a guess that the origin is Indo-European, and might have
reached Japan through Buddhism. "Daan" or similar words in Indian
languages mean "gift".
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ash Nallawalla, VK3CIT ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Editor, PC Update, Melbourne PC User Group -- A member of APCUG
CIS: 72662,377 Fidonet: 3:635/508 Internet: a...@melbpc.org.au
Online edition of PC Update via http://www.melbpc.org.au
emmas...@gmail.com
He corrected me saying that San and Yama are the same but the kanji has two pronunciations, like most kanji.
Fujisan and Fujiyama are the same, however Yama is techinally incorrect since it's the kun yomi instead of on yomi (used when two words collide).
Though some Japanese might make the mistake of thinking Fuji and Yama are two different words and say Fujiyama. This is the only difference I've been able to tell.
emmas...@gmail.com
Each kanji has at least two readings, the On-yomi and Kun-yomi. On-yomi is used when two+ kanji are placed together to form a word. Kun-yomi is used for individual kanji.
富士山 is considered one word in Japanese, so therefore they use On-yomi for all three kanji. A clue for the correct heading would be that Fuji is on yomi so therefore 山 must be pronounced "San".
The mispronunciation isn't really ignorance. In fact some Japanese might have trouble if the struggle learning kanji readings, but foreigners are mostly the people to do it. In English Mt. and Everest are two words, so it might be hard to tell if you should use On-yomi or not.
Peter T. Daniels
the thread?
Peter Moylan
message. Anyway, it was interesting information, even if he waited 20
years to give it.
We still have no example of someone reviving an ancient thread from
anywhere except Google Groups.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
> On 2015-Oct-30 00:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 9:09:39 AM UTC-4, emmas...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Fujisan is the correct reading of 富士山. Let me explain
> >> Each kanji has at least two readings, the On-yomi and Kun-yomi. On-yomi is used when two+ kanji are placed together to form a word. Kun-yomi is used for individual kanji.
> >> 富士山 is considered one word in Japanese, so therefore they use On-yomi for all three kanji. A clue for the correct heading would be that Fuji is on yomi so therefore 山 must be pronounced "San".
> >> The mispronunciation isn't really ignorance. In fact some Japanese might have trouble if the struggle learning kanji readings, but foreigners are mostly the people to do it. In English Mt. and Everest are two words, so it might be hard to tell if you should use On-yomi or not.
> >
> > Is this a first? A gmailer who revives a 20 1/2-year-old thread returns to
> > the thread?
>
> "Returns" only in the sense of adding a followup to the original
> message. Anyway, it was interesting information, even if he waited 20
> years to give it.
already been given. Bart Mathias (who posted to sci.lang yesterday) has one
message, but there was probably cross-posting from a Japanese langauge group.
> We still have no example of someone reviving an ancient thread from
> anywhere except Google Groups.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
--
athel
David Kleinecke
than once. But this poster has only augmented their previous post.
If you are still there, sir or madam as the case may be, please
reply and prove you have seen these repsonses.
Richard Tobin
>> We still have no example of someone reviving an ancient thread from
>> anywhere except Google Groups.
>Would that be because the ancient threads are no longer archived
>anywhere else?
archive and posting system.
A similar thing happens on the BBC News website sometimes. Someone
finds an ancient news report and mentions on Twitter or similar site,
not realising that it is not current. Thousands of people visit it.
It then appears in the "most popular" articles list, and even more
people do the same. The BBC now prominently mark such articles as
old, and it happens less than it used to.
-- Richard
Peter T. Daniels
explained why he thinks it's insulting.
Of course Asshole is afraid to look at my reply to Peter M.
Peter T. Daniels
fault that gmail users don't look at it.
Charles Bishop
> On 2015-Oct-30 00:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 9:09:39 AM UTC-4, emmas...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Fujisan is the correct reading of 富士山. Let me explain
> >>
> >> Each kanji has at least two readings, the On-yomi and Kun-yomi. On-yomi is
> >> used when two+ kanji are placed together to form a word. Kun-yomi is used
> >> for individual kanji.
> >>
> >> 富士山 is considered one word in Japanese, so therefore they use On-yomi
> >> for all three kanji. A clue for the correct heading would be that Fuji is
> >> on yomi so therefore 山 must be pronounced "San".
> >>
> >> The mispronunciation isn't really ignorance. In fact some Japanese might
> >> have trouble if the struggle learning kanji readings, but foreigners are
> >> mostly the people to do it. In English Mt. and Everest are two words, so
> >> it might be hard to tell if you should use On-yomi or not.
> >
> > Is this a first? A gmailer who revives a 20 1/2-year-old thread returns to
> > the thread?
>
> "Returns" only in the sense of adding a followup to the original
> message. Anyway, it was interesting information, even if he waited 20
> years to give it.
18 years and I was claiming a record for it.
> We still have no example of someone reviving an ancient thread from
> anywhere except Google Groups.
chrles, we have evidence of intelligence in GG users
Charles Bishop
reply in current times.
> If you are still there, sir or madam as the case may be, please
> reply and prove you have seen these repsonses.
Charles, Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
Richard Tobin
>> A similar thing happens on the BBC News website sometimes. Someone
>> finds an ancient news report and mentions on Twitter or similar site,
>> not realising that it is not current. Thousands of people visit it.
>> It then appears in the "most popular" articles list, and even more
>> people do the same. The BBC now prominently mark such articles as
>> old, and it happens less than it used to.
>GG articles have their date at the right end of the heading. It's not their
>fault that gmail users don't look at it.
have people responding to ancient postings - and as far as I can tell,
you're the only one who cares enough to regularly complain about it -
why are you so picky about a suggested solution?
-- Richard
Peter T. Daniels
It often needs to be pointed out because those of you who have no information
about the past -- or who don't look at the dates of replied-to messages that
are displayed at the top of the replies -- not infrequently react in inappropriate
ways.
David Kleinecke
at the posting dates (I gather those are not apparent on some
newsreaders). Occasionally the strange names are due to cross-posting
but usually to old threads.
evar...@gmail.com
山 (Shān) it is also cognate with the Korean word 산 (San) which is written as 山 in Korean Hanja. It likely would have come into the Japanese language from Korean and Chinese Scholars who helped the Yamato establish foreign relations around the 5th century AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji#History