Pronunciation of "ay" = always
Joe Fineman
OED flatly says
The spelling fluctuates between ay and aye: the former is preferable
on grounds of etymology, phonology, and analogy. The word rimes, in
the literary speech, and in all the dialects, with the group bay,
day, gay, hay, may, way. On the other hand, aye `yesž² does not rime
with these, and should not be written ay.
"In all the dialects." Nevertheless, I noticed a long time ago that
Ewan MacColl, who sang a lot of songs in the northern English &
Scottish dialects in which "ay" occurs frequently, pronounces it [aI],
like "aye" & "I". That he could have got it wrong seemed conceivable
but unlikely: the dialects he sang in were not his native one, but on
the other hand he had Scottish parents and learned songs from them --
how could the question not have come up?
Now I have a vast set of CDs on which all of Robert Burns's songs are
sung by a great variety of singers -- and they all pronounce "ay" the
same as "I". It is hard to believe that either they or the OED could
be so utterly wrong, but one or the other must be. Does anybody know?
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: Marriage is the most estimable of the sexual perversions. :||
John Dean
The OED give a clear explanation of what they have considered in deciding
their idea of pronunciation. Worth adding that they also note that 'aye' for
yes was often spelt 'I' in early usage, though it doesn't seem to appear
before 1575 ( 1576 Tyde Taryeth no Man in Collier E.E. Pop. Lit. 12 If you
say I, syr, we will not say no. 1594 Drayton Idea 57 Nothing but No and I,
and I and No.) whereas 'ay' (whose 'logical' pronunciation, to me, rhymes
with 'bay') appears from c. 1200
As far as Burns is concerned, I think we are bound to assume on the evidence
that Burns was a poet who liked to write in rhyme, and so instances where
'ay' or 'aye' meaning 'forever' is clearly intended to rhyme with 'bay'
'gay' 'say' etc indicate how he expected it to be said or sung.
People who recite or sing his work may not be aware of that. When they see
'ay' written down they may assume it is pronounced like the 'aye' with which
they are more familiar.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Raymond S. Wise
news:wkk71th...@TheWorld.com...
> S.v. "ay, aye, adv." with definition "ever, always, continually" the
> OED flatly says
>
> The spelling fluctuates between ay and aye: the former is preferable
> on grounds of etymology, phonology, and analogy. The word rimes, in
> the literary speech, and in all the dialects, with the group bay,
> with these, and should not be written ay.
>
> "In all the dialects." Nevertheless, I noticed a long time ago that
> Ewan MacColl, who sang a lot of songs in the northern English &
> Scottish dialects in which "ay" occurs frequently, pronounces it [aI],
> like "aye" & "I". That he could have got it wrong seemed conceivable
> but unlikely: the dialects he sang in were not his native one, but on
> the other hand he had Scottish parents and learned songs from them --
> how could the question not have come up?
>
> Now I have a vast set of CDs on which all of Robert Burns's songs are
> sung by a great variety of singers -- and they all pronounce "ay" the
> same as "I". It is hard to believe that either they or the OED could
> be so utterly wrong, but one or the other must be. Does anybody know?
As it happens, I recently ran across this word "aye/ay," meaning "ever,
always." MWCD11 gives "ay" as a secondary variant for "aye," and gives only
one pronunciation for this sense of the word: /eI/[1], that is, it rhymes it
with "day."
My reason for looking it up was to see if /eI/ was ever used as a
pronunciation of "aye." A few days ago I saw the 1944 film *Between Two
Worlds.* At one point, Sydney Greenstreet says "Eh?" to indicate that he had
not understood the reply of another character. The closed-captioning spelled
it "Aye?"
The only word spelled "aye" which is pronounced /eI/ is the one which you
are discussing: All others (and one word which has only the spelling
"ay"[2]) are pronounced /aI/, that is, rhyming with "buy." As I indicated,
the captioner should have written "Eh?" for the word used by Greenstreet.
Note:
[1] This is an example of ASCII IPA, used by some of us in
alt.usage.english.
[2] That "ay" is an interjection, "--usually used with following _me_ to
express sorrow or regret," according to MWCD11.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
David Kilpatrick
Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
Burns nothwithstanding, the Scots word 'aye' meaning ever or always is
pronounced 'eye' or 'I' and that's aye been! In fact, the phrase 'ayebeen'
is used to refer to the attitude of our local council worthies who want to
see no changes in life.
The Scots yes is also 'I' or ay (the spelling ay or aye is variable) and I
have used that all my life, although I don't speak in Scots, because my
father used it all the time (despite having eliminated his Scots accent by a
deliberate process, something which very few Scots do and the rest of his
family never did). But 'aye' for yes stuck, and it's stuck with me too.
The main confusion in songs is with 'ae', the 'pure Doric' for 'one'. Ae
Fond Kiss is 'One Fond Kiss' and is pronounced 'a' as in 'hay'. A lot of
pseudo-Scots, or even native spoken Scots who used a modern dialect where
'yin', 'one' or 'ain' is used for 'one', will sing 'eye fond kiss' and that
really grates!
The northern phrase 'for ever and aye' or just 'ever and aye' is also
pronounsed 'eye' in English, so the OED's incorrect assignment of phonetics
to this word is peculiar.
Another song to consider is 'Aye Waukin' O, Waukin' an' weary' which is most
definitely 'eye' and sounds terrible if you attempt to sing it otherwise.
This word is in such common use all round - 'Yer aye doin' that, stop it',
'he's aye bletherin aboot that', 'ye've aye been one for the ladies'. Anyone
who said 'ay' as in 'hay' would just not be understood, at least in the
central and Lowlands areas. As to whether a Shetland variant exists I don't
know...
David
Abby Sale
>S.v. "ay, aye, adv." with definition "ever, always, continually" the
>OED flatly says
>
> The spelling fluctuates between ay and aye: the former is preferable
> on grounds of etymology, phonology, and analogy. The word rimes, in
> the literary speech, and in all the dialects, with the group bay,
> day, gay, hay, may, way. On the other hand, aye `yes??does not rime
> with these, and should not be written ay.
Joe,
The OED is not very good on Scottishisms. Surprisingly, older Webters and
Merriam-Websters are better. It also completely sucks as a tool for folk
song research.
For decades I used MacColl pronounciation as a guide (and a dozen
glosseries for meanings) and became pretty good at colloquial & ballad
Scots. (Forget bothy Scots - that's another story.) Then I finally broke
down 6 or 7 years ago and bought Chambers' _The Concise Scots Dictionary_.
It has everything - etymology, definitions sorted with century and
location in Scotland. As you know both pronounciation & definition vary
widely across Scottish landscape & time. And spelin' is anybody's guess.
I waffled some but both Campin & Gaughan highly recommended it so I went &
spent the few dollars on the paperback edition.
I couldn't be happier. Screw OED.
See next post. (r.m.f only)
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
Boycott South Carolina!
http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml
Abby Sale
>S.v. "ay, aye, adv." with definition "ever, always, continually" the
>OED flatly says
>
> The spelling fluctuates between ay and aye: the former is preferable
> on grounds of etymology, phonology, and analogy. The word rimes, in
> the literary speech, and in all the dialects, with the group bay,
> day, gay, hay, may, way. On the other hand, aye `yes??does not rime
> with these, and should not be written ay.
>
>"In all the dialects." Nevertheless, I noticed a long time ago that
>Ewan MacColl, who sang a lot of songs in the northern English &
>Scottish dialects in which "ay" occurs frequently, pronounces it [aI],
>like "aye" & "I". That he could have got it wrong seemed conceivable
>but unlikely: the dialects he sang in were not his native one, but on
>the other hand he had Scottish parents and learned songs from them --
>how could the question not have come up?
>
>Now I have a vast set of CDs on which all of Robert Burns's songs are
>sung by a great variety of singers -- and they all pronounce "ay" the
>same as "I". It is hard to believe that either they or the OED could
>be so utterly wrong, but one or the other must be. Does anybody know?
>--
I forgot. _Concise Scots_ gives (I assume we're aye talking about its
sense of "ever" that it's a dipthong (upsidedown e-lower case i) and
pronounced as mile, bite, line.
This is distinguished from ay- yes/indeed, also a dipthong (a-capital I)
pronunced as eye, rise, hive.
It does not state it is never pronounced as bay in Scotland but does not
give any examples in any place or time there.
John Dean
> David Kilpatrick <icon...@btconnect.com> writes:
>
>> On 9/3/04 11:51 pm, in article c2ll61$7ok$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk,
>> "John Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>
>>> Joe Fineman wrote:
>
>>>> S.v. "ay, aye, adv." with definition "ever, always, continually"
>>>> the OED flatly says
>
>>>> The spelling fluctuates between ay and aye: the former is
>>>> preferable on grounds of etymology, phonology, and analogy. The
>>>> word rimes, in the literary speech, and in all the dialects,
>>>> with the group bay, day, gay, hay, may, way. On the other hand,
>
>
>>> The OED give a clear explanation of what they have considered in
>>> deciding their idea of pronunciation.
>
> apparently did they bother to consult any of the Scots dictionaries or
> authorities on the language. Because all these flatly disagree with
> them.
I'm finding it wearisome that discussion of pronunciation is constantly
being hijacked by people who think there is some Scottish connection other
than the fact that the usage of 'ay' no longer exists in many places outside
Scotland and the North of England.
OED sees the roots in early ME, ON, ME, OS, OHG and MHG. Its use was
widespread in English - Chaucer uses it, Shakespeare uses it, Langland uses
it in Piers Ploughman, DeFoe uses it ...
In short, it's an English word, used widely by the English and English
speakers over several centuries. That's why OED give the pronunciation they
do. There's no reason for them to make a special point of considering
Scottish usage any more than they should quote everyday Scottish
pronunciation for words like brown or town.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Paul Burke
>
> I'm finding it wearisome that discussion of pronunciation is constantly
> being hijacked by people who think there is some Scottish connection other
> than the fact that the usage of 'ay' no longer exists in many places outside
> Scotland and the North of England.
Why aye man.
> OED sees the roots in early ME, ON, ME, OS, OHG and MHG. Its use was
> widespread in English - Chaucer uses it, Shakespeare uses it, Langland uses
> it in Piers Ploughman, DeFoe uses it ...
> In short, it's an English word, used widely by the English and English
> speakers over several centuries. That's why OED give the pronunciation they
> do. There's no reason for them to make a special point of considering
> Scottish usage any more than they should quote everyday Scottish
> pronunciation for words like brown or town.
But I think the OP was talking about Scottish songs.
Now let's get onto a discussion of the variations of the pronunciation
of "nowt" (nothing) in the South East Lancashire area.
Paul Burke
David Kilpatrick
Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
Context. Context, context...
On the whole Scots songs are sung in Scots, except when I sing them, in
which case the audience normally assumes a Welsh Australian with adenoids
has spent the summer in Iceland.
David
John Dean
'sung in Scots'? What does that sound like? Is it a dialect of English? Do
you sing 'Four Maries' in Scots the way others sing 'Lambton Worm' in
Geordie? In the 4 Maries, do you sing 'the death I am to die' to rhyme with
'dee' or 'die'? If the former, would you expect that pronunciation to be
covered in an English Dictionary?
--
John Dean
Oxford
Joe Fineman
> In short, it's an English word, used widely by the English and
> English speakers over several centuries. That's why OED give the
> pronunciation they do. There's no reason for them to make a special
> point of considering Scottish usage any more than they should quote
> everyday Scottish pronunciation for words like brown or town.
But in this case they went so far as to say "in all dialects".
Wouldn't that include the Scottish ones -- at least in the patois of
Oxford University a century ago?
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: A science is only a well-made language. :||
David Kilpatrick
Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
> 'sung in Scots'? What does that sound like? Is it a dialect of English? Do
> you sing 'Four Maries' in Scots the way others sing 'Lambton Worm' in
> Geordie? In the 4 Maries, do you sing 'the death I am to die' to rhyme with
> 'dee' or 'die'? If the former, would you expect that pronunciation to be
> covered in an English Dictionary?
Since 'lands I was to see' indicates a rhyme 'dee' for die (in at that
version anyway) I would sing dee. The Four Maries is however written in
English, not Scots, and the rhyme is little different from English
pronunciation in the past. Dee was the the pronunciation in Cumbria and
Yorkshire which I grew up with, and it's the pronunciation I hear from
neighbours over the border in Northumberland now.
I would not doubt the OED except that in the case of 'aye' for ever, I have
never heard the 'hay' pronunciation anywhere. I'm public school with
maternal influence pure Oxford (gown not town Oxford accent-wise, it's very
divided place that way!) and most relatives now living in Oxford, and father
and both elder brothers Oxford graduates.
OK, I escaped at a young age by being non-academic, but that wee legacy has
never been a welcome thing in folk, or any, singing. It's not that easy to
soften the vocal habits of the mid-20th century English upper middle
classes, which is why I readily take the piss out of myself trying to sing
in Scots.
However, I am more interested in making an attempt at 'Schir Gormalyn and
the Reid Wolff at the Warldis End' than Donald where's yer troosers...!
And, for what it's worth, I suspect Motherwell's 'found' manuscript was
faked anyway, and to my untrained eye the middle Scots looks very much like
middle English. If anyone has the full text of Schir Gormalyn I would like
to have it, because all I have is the first half dozen verses and R A
Smith's peculiar very un-Scottish tune.
On topic for both groups?
DK
Raymond S. Wise
news:c2qh1o$26p$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
Depending upon what argument you accept, Scots is either a dialect of
English or a separate language from English. The following is from *The
Cambridge Encyclopedia of The English Language* by David Crystal, Cambridge
University Press, (C) 1999:
or
[begin quote from Usenet post]
[quote]
[page 330]
Of all the varieties of English which have developed within the
British Isles, there are none more distinctive or more divergent from
Standard English than some of those associated with Scotland. Indeed,
the extent of the divergence in one of these varieties has led to a
well-established use of the label, the 'Scots language', and to a
spirited defence of all that such a label stands for. It is argued
that Scots differs from the regional dialects of England in two
crucial ways. It is unique because it was once the variety used, in
the late Middle Ages, when Scotland was an independent nation; and it
is unique because it has a clearly defined history of its own, with a
strong literary tradition beginning in Middle English (p. 52), its own
dialect variants (several of which have individual literary
histories), its own 'golden age' and period of decline, a modern
literary renaissance, and a contemporary sociolinguistic stature which
other dialects of British English do not share. There are many more
Scottish expressions in current use in Scotland than there are English
dialect expressions in current use in any dialect of England. The term
'dialect island' is sometimes used to capture the character of the
Scottish situation.
[page 333]
There is evidently a continuum linking Standard English and Scots in
informal speech, and to some extent in writing. At one extreme, people
from Scotland may speak a dialect which is to all intents and purposes
Standard English, with only a slight Scottish accent indicating where
they are from. At the other extreme, a highly distinctive variety may
be used, with an extremely localized English vocabulary,
pronunciation, and grammar, often coloured by borrowings from Gaelic.
[end quote]
[end quote from Usenet group]
In my experience, most dictionaries treat Scots as a dialect of English.
Robert Bannister
> People who recite or sing his work may not be aware of that. When they see
> 'ay' written down they may assume it is pronounced like the 'aye' with which
> they are more familiar.
I suspect you're right. I've never looked it up, but the only time I've
ever heard it used, outside old songs or books, is in the phrase "for
ever and aye", and the few people I heard say it pronounced it "eye".
--
Rob Bannister
Tony Cooper
<icon...@btconnect.com> wrote:
>However, I am more interested in making an attempt at 'Schir Gormalyn and
>the Reid Wolff at the Warldis End' than Donald where's yer troosers...!
>
Yeah, but neither are as good as "Who'll Be King But Charlie".
David Kilpatrick
"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
And, of course, we can now launch into a discussing of whether Charlie
should be pronounced with a short a, or as in standard Scots, as Chairlie!
Locally, it's about an even split. A typical chorus will be half and half
Charlies and Chairlies. Same with heart - hart or hairt. Still I live in an
area where you map someone's birth village by the way they say the words for
'us', 'we', and 'two' - and it can change over a distance of five miles.
David