Re: mauve
James Hogg
> I've always pronounced mauve as if it had the same vowel as Maude, a
> sort of flattened o, not quite as rounded as in modern, but very very
> close to that.
>
> I heard it today pronounced to rhyme with cove, with the o sound at the
> beginning of 'over'. That is, a distinctly full, long-o sound.
>
> Now I am not so sure which is right because I've never learned to
> decipher the IPA, and 'taupe' is pronounced with that long-o sound from
> over and cove.
>
> (OT: In my experience taupe is a much lighter color that #483c32 that
> Wikipedia says it is)
Rhyming with "cove" is the standard British pronunciation according to
the dictionaries, but I've heard the Maude-style vowel often enough.
--
James
musika
James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com> typed:
Next week's lesson: "move".
--
Ray
UK
annily
I've never heard mauve pronounced other than to rhyme with cove, and
I've always pronounced taupe as "tawp".
--
Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia,
which may or may not influence my opinions.
Cheryl P.
I have also never heard any way to pronounce mauve other than to rhyme
with cove, but I pronounce taupe at "tope".
--
Cheryl
Default User
"Lewis" <g.k...@gmail.com.dontemailme> wrote in message
news:g.kreme-16F38C...@news.iad.newshosting.com...
> I've always pronounced mauve as if it had the same vowel as Maude, a
> sort of flattened o, not quite as rounded as in modern, but very very
> close to that.
>
> I heard it today pronounced to rhyme with cove, with the o sound at the
> beginning of 'over'. That is, a distinctly full, long-o sound.
The first pronounciation is needed for the pun in "The Flying Sorcerers".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flying_Sorcerers
Brian
franzi
--
franzi
James Hogg
As I stand alone at the gate, the smoke from my Woodbine wafting abroad,
I can assure Lewis that there are no fairies at the bottom of the garden.
--
James
Nick Spalding
<9f8ed68c-0754-47f2...@w42g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
on Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:47:31 -0700 (PDT):
She wasn't spelt that way. I don't think I've ever seen an 'e' on the
end before this thread.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Donna Richoux
> I've always pronounced mauve as if it had the same vowel as Maude, a
> sort of flattened o, not quite as rounded as in modern, but very very
> close to that.
>
> I heard it today pronounced to rhyme with cove, with the o sound at the
> beginning of 'over'. That is, a distinctly full, long-o sound.
>
> Now I am not so sure which is right because I've never learned to
> decipher the IPA, and 'taupe' is pronounced with that long-o sound from
> over and cove.
>
> (OT: In my experience taupe is a much lighter color that #483c32 that
> Wikipedia says it is)
"Mauve" was originally a French word, so it makes sense to me that it
would still have that "French au" that I think we all put into "au pair"
and "gauche." But it also sounds quite reasonable that it picked up an
alternative pronunciation.
However, (1) Americans and Britons do not pronounce simple long-O words
like "oh" and "know" the same, and (2) the IPA convention does not
satisfactorily account for this. This is exactly why pronunciation
threads are messy.
Leaving pronunciation and back to the word -- "mauve" is the French name
for the common mallow, or Malva sylvestris. The distinctive pinky-purple
color can be seen here:
However, as a clothing dye, mauve was not made from any plant; it was
one of the first synthetic products made from fossil fuels and it kicked
off a worldwide fashion rage. There's a book called _Mauve: How One Man
Invented a Color That Changed the World_.
I and some others here had a lot of fun in past years looking up the
history of color names. I don't think we looked into "taupe" ... Well,
that's pretty short. "Taupe" is the French word for "mole."
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Wood Avens
wrote:
No? Doesn't the spirit of morning move?
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Cece
In America, I heard "mauve" rhyme with "cove" every time I heard it --
until sometime in the 1960s, when my older sister said it with the
vowel from "Maude." Our mother immediately corrected her. Mind you,
Mother knew not one word of French, nor that "mauve" came from French;
she just knew English very well indeed. Since then, I think every
time I've heard it, it's been mawv, and good friends I've tried to
discuss it with have been offended that I might even consider that
they would ever mispronounce a word, insisting that the word cannot
possibly be pronounced like "cove." Yet-- they don't mispronounce
"taupe"...
James Silverton
I've pronounced the word as "morve" all my life and I don't intend to
change. However, it occurs to me that I don't know how William Henry
Perkin pronounced it. It is really a remarkable story how an, admittedly
well-off, teenager made the first aniline dye and essentially invented
synthetic industrial dye chemistry.
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
R H Draney
>
>But do Maud and Maude sound any different from each other, within the
>same speech zone? That would be a surprise.
>
>I am more likely to think that they are both pronounced 'Matilda'.
Sure, take my money and run Venezuela....r
--
"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly."
- Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle
franzi
> franzi wrote, in
> <9f8ed68c-0754-47f2-92f7-8389605bb...@w42g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
But do Maud and Maude sound any different from each other, within the
same speech zone? That would be a surprise.
I am more likely to think that they are both pronounced 'Matilda'.
--
franzi
Mark Brader
> > I've always pronounced mauve as if it had the same vowel as Maude...
> > I heard it today pronounced to rhyme with cove, with the o sound at the
> > beginning of 'over'. That is, a distinctly full, long-o sound.
Donna Richoux:
> "Mauve" was originally a French word, so it makes sense to me that it
> would still have that "French au" that I think we all put into "au pair"
> and "gauche."
We do? I pronounce all these words with a long O, which is how my
English-speaking ears perceive the French sound.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "After much soul-searching, the DMR decided to
m...@vex.net | go with UNIX." -- "/aur" magazine, April-May '89
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>I've always pronounced mauve as if it had the same vowel as Maude, a
>sort of flattened o, not quite as rounded as in modern, but very very
>close to that.
>
>I heard it today pronounced to rhyme with cove, with the o sound at the
>beginning of 'over'. That is, a distinctly full, long-o sound.
I've always pronounced it to rhyme with cove.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Robert Bannister
Before you do that, you might consider the Australian pronunciation of
"maroon" which is much closer to "marron" than BrE.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
For me, "mauve" and "taupe" have the "cove" vowel. I have heard "tawp",
but never "mawv".
--
Rob Bannister
annily
Macquarie lists both pronunciations of "taupe", with "tawp" first, which
IIRC means they consider it the more-common pronunciation in Australia,
so I'm not alone.
R H Draney
>
>For me, "mauve" and "taupe" have the "cove" vowel. I have heard "tawp",
>but never "mawv".
I've heard all four, but "tawp" is the least often encountered...this may be
because it's homophonous with "top" for the CIC....r
tony cooper
wrote:
I take a certain modest pride in not having used "mauve" or "taupe" in
conversation.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
annily
Do you mean "maroon" pronounced to rhyme with "bone"? That's how I've
always pronounced the colour (but not the verb). How is it close to
"marron", which is stressed on the first syllable and has a schwa for
the second vowel?
Peter Moylan
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>> Before you do that, you might consider the Australian pronunciation of
>> "maroon" which is much closer to "marron" than BrE.
>
> Do you mean "maroon" pronounced to rhyme with "bone"? That's how I've
> always pronounced the colour (but not the verb).
Me too. I think that's the standard AusE pronunciation.
> How is it close to "marron", which is stressed on the first syllable
> and has a schwa for the second vowel?
You mean a sort of yabbie? Yes, that's pronounced like "marinated"
without the "ated", but I don't think that's what he meant. The French
word "marron", which is the same colour as our "maroon" - to the extent
that colours can be the same in different languages, which is not very
far - has equal stress on both syllables. Admittedly the ending is
nasalised, and the vowel isn't quite the "bone" vowel, but there's some
similarity.
When I see "maroon" I'm sometimes reminded of Bugs Bunny saying "What a
maroon", using a word that rhymes with "raccoon". Is that the way the
colour is pronounced in AmE, or is it merely a bugsism?
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Peter Moylan
Since I had always assumed that Isaac's name used the "cot" vowel, the
pun sounded awfully weak to me. The rest of the book was pretty good,
though.
Even for a CIC person, wouldn't the pun require pronouncing "mauve" in
the same way as a non-rhotic "morph"?
R H Draney
>
>Default User wrote:
>> "Lewis" <g.k...@gmail.com.dontemailme> wrote in message
>> news:g.kreme-16F38C...@news.iad.newshosting.com...
>>> I've always pronounced mauve as if it had the same vowel as Maude, a
>>> sort of flattened o, not quite as rounded as in modern, but very very
>>> close to that.
>>>
>>> I heard it today pronounced to rhyme with cove, with the o sound at the
>>> beginning of 'over'. That is, a distinctly full, long-o sound.
>>
>> The first pronounciation is needed for the pun in "The Flying Sorcerers".
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flying_Sorcerers
>
>Since I had always assumed that Isaac's name used the "cot" vowel, the
>pun sounded awfully weak to me. The rest of the book was pretty good,
>though.
>
>Even for a CIC person, wouldn't the pun require pronouncing "mauve" in
>the same way as a non-rhotic "morph"?
When Isaac's at a nudist camp,
He promptly joins the fun.
For 'when in Rome's his favorite quote
As he tells everyone.
So when the order comes around:
"All clothing you must doff"
Without a moment's hesitation,
Isaac 'as 'em off.
James Hogg
> In article <SkWwn.277259$OM2.1...@newsfe14.ams2>,
> "musika" <mUs...@SPAMNOTexcite.com> wrote:
>
>> In news:hq12i1$c4i$1...@news.eternal-september.org,
>> James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com> typed:
>>> Lewis wrote:
>>>> sort of flattened o, not quite as rounded as in modern, but very very
>>>> close to that.
>>>>
>>>> I heard it today pronounced to rhyme with cove, with the o sound at
>>>> the beginning of 'over'. That is, a distinctly full, long-o sound.
>>>>
>>>> decipher the IPA, and 'taupe' is pronounced with that long-o sound
>>>> from over and cove.
>>>>
>>>> (OT: In my experience taupe is a much lighter color that #483c32 that
>>>> Wikipedia says it is)
>>> Rhyming with "cove" is the standard British pronunciation according to
>>> the dictionaries, but I've heard the Maude-style vowel often enough.
>> Next week's lesson: "move".
>
When do we get on to advanced courses in Mövenpick?
--
James
LFS
Ah, they do make awfully good ice cream. And in Toronto they had a whole
eating place, full of little stalls where the food was cooked to order.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Steve Hayes
>When I see "maroon" I'm sometimes reminded of Bugs Bunny saying "What a
>maroon", using a word that rhymes with "raccoon". Is that the way the
>colour is pronounced in AmE, or is it merely a bugsism?
Dunno about AmE, but it's pronounced to rhyme with raccoon in my dialect.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>For me, "mauve" and "taupe" have the "cove" vowel. I have heard "tawp",
>but never "mawv".
A fellow student of my cousin in art school announced one day "I'm going all
Fauve".
He pronounced it to rhyme with mauve and cove.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>OTOH, I spell blonde with the terminal e and armour with a u (but not
>most other British spellings). I know why armour, but I have no idea
>where I latched on to blonde instead of blond.
I thought "blond" was masculine and "blonde" feminine.
>Well, blond is the color. I might describe a wood finish as blond.
>Blonde is a woman with blond-colored hair.
>
>I think the blonde/blond distinction is still relevant in the UK, but
>over here using blonde anymore is bordering on just wrong.
Political correctness, perhaps?
Nick Spalding
on Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:44:16 +0200:
> On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 16:59:56 +1000, Peter Moylan <gro.nalyomp@retep> wrote:
>
> >When I see "maroon" I'm sometimes reminded of Bugs Bunny saying "What a
> >maroon", using a word that rhymes with "raccoon". Is that the way the
> >colour is pronounced in AmE, or is it merely a bugsism?
>
> Dunno about AmE, but it's pronounced to rhyme with raccoon in my dialect.
And mine, whether it's a colour or large firework.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Nick Spalding
<1d04dd38-2bf6-4c84...@z7g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>
on Tue, 13 Apr 2010 15:04:46 -0700 (PDT):
I have no way of knowing. I only know one Maud, a neighbour, and
wouldn't think of asking her how she spells herself.
> I am more likely to think that they are both pronounced 'Matilda'.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
franzi
> On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:28:16 +0800, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com>
> wrote:
>
> >For me, "mauve" and "taupe" have the "cove" vowel. I have heard "tawp",
> >but never "mawv".
>
> A fellow student of my cousin in art school announced one day "I'm going all
> Fauve".
>
> He pronounced it to rhyme with mauve and cove.
>
--
franzi
Cheryl P.
> On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:28:16 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com>
> wrote:
>
>> For me, "mauve" and "taupe" have the "cove" vowel. I have heard "tawp",
>> but never "mawv".
>
> A fellow student of my cousin in art school announced one day "I'm going all
> Fauve".
>
> He pronounced it to rhyme with mauve and cove.
>
>
studying English, and to impress her he told her how much he admired the
poet Keats - and pronounced 'Keats' wrong.
--
Cheryl
ke...@cam.ac.uk
Cheryl P. <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:
>>
>One of my sisters, when a student, told a fellow student that she was
>studying English, and to impress her he told her how much he admired the
>poet Keats - and pronounced 'Keats' wrong.
How do you do that? I'd have thought it was quite hard to get wrong.
Kee-uts?
Katy
James Hogg
Rhyming with Yeats perhaps?
--
James
Cheryl P.
I've been trying to remember. I think it was 'Kates' which makes a kind
of sense, because there's a better-known local name 'Kean' which is
pronounced 'Kane'.
--
Cheryl
Pat Durkin
"Lewis" <g.k...@gmail.com.dontemailme> wrote in message
> In article <l5h9s5l8ftn01nunp...@4ax.com>,
> Nick Spalding <spal...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
>> franzi wrote, in
>> <9f8ed68c-0754-47f2...@w42g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
> ever
> saw it, but it was present in the world around me enough that the
> spelling stuck.
>
> OTOH, I spell blonde with the terminal e and armour with a u (but
> not
> most other British spellings). I know why armour, but I have no idea
> where I latched on to blonde instead of blond.
>
> Blonde is a woman with blond-colored hair.
>
> I think the blonde/blond distinction is still relevant in the UK,
> but
> over here using blonde anymore is bordering on just wrong.
I don't think so. But, of course, a divorced man and an engaged (to be
married) male are referred to with the "feminine ending" here in the
US, so vengeance is there to be relished, hot or cold.
I think "né" is also invisible to many family tree-ers.
Peter Moylan
ke...@cam.ac.uk
Pat Durkin <durk...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>I don't think so. But, of course, a divorced man and an engaged (to be
>married) male are referred to with the "feminine ending" here in the
AAMOI, why is one of the above a man and the other a male?
I find it vaguely irritating, though I don't know why, when people say things
like "I saw a female with green hair
today", or "there was a male cutting the grass" - it sounds like a police
report, but some people seem to use the words as alternatives to "woman" and
"man".
Katy
Peter Moylan
<enthusiastic clapping>
Peter Moylan
> In article <82js39...@mid.individual.net>,
> "Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flying_Sorcerers
>
> I've never heard of that. I *must* read it.
Yes, you must. One of my favourites.
Cheryl P.
> Lewis wrote:
>> In article <82js39...@mid.individual.net>,
>> "Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flying_Sorcerers
>> I've never heard of that. I *must* read it.
>
> Yes, you must. One of my favourites.
>
I came across it quite young, and before I knew much about science
fiction. I missed essentially all the puns and in-jokes, and although I
had of course heard of Asimov and read some of his books, I couldn't
figure out even that. I think I got as far as knowing 'mauve' had
something to do with it, but I'd always heard the pronunciation that
doesn't work.
I still enjoyed the book.
--
Cheryl
Steve Hayes
>I find it vaguely irritating, though I don't know why, when people say things
>like "I saw a female with green hair
>today", or "there was a male cutting the grass" - it sounds like a police
>report, but some people seem to use the words as alternatives to "woman" and
>"man".
I do, because I tend to reserve "man" for the inclusive use, and so will use
"male" until "werman" makes a comeback.
Cece
> annily wrote:
> > Robert Bannister wrote:
> >> Before you do that, you might consider the Australian pronunciation of
> >> "maroon" which is much closer to "marron" than BrE.
>
> > Do you mean "maroon" pronounced to rhyme with "bone"? That's how I've
> > always pronounced the colour (but not the verb).
>
> Me too. I think that's the standard AusE pronunciation.
>
> > How is it close to "marron", which is stressed on the first syllable
> > and has a schwa for the second vowel?
>
> You mean a sort of yabbie? Yes, that's pronounced like "marinated"
> without the "ated", but I don't think that's what he meant. The French
> word "marron", which is the same colour as our "maroon" - to the extent
> that colours can be the same in different languages, which is not very
> far - has equal stress on both syllables. Admittedly the ending is
> nasalised, and the vowel isn't quite the "bone" vowel, but there's some
> similarity.
>
> When I see "maroon" I'm sometimes reminded of Bugs Bunny saying "What a
> maroon", using a word that rhymes with "raccoon". Is that the way the
> colour is pronounced in AmE, or is it merely a bugsism?
>
> Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
> For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Maroon rhymes with raccoon, yes; Bugs pronounced the color correctly.
CDB
> annily wrote:
>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>>> Before you do that, you might consider the Australian
>>> pronunciation of "maroon" which is much closer to "marron" than
>>> BrE.
>>
>> Do you mean "maroon" pronounced to rhyme with "bone"? That's how
>> I've always pronounced the colour (but not the verb).
>
> Me too. I think that's the standard AusE pronunciation.
>
>> How is it close to "marron", which is stressed on the first
>> syllable and has a schwa for the second vowel?
>
> You mean a sort of yabbie? Yes, that's pronounced like "marinated"
> without the "ated", but I don't think that's what he meant. The
> French word "marron", which is the same colour as our "maroon" - to
> the extent that colours can be the same in different languages,
> which is not very far - has equal stress on both syllables.
> Admittedly the ending is nasalised, and the vowel isn't quite the
> "bone" vowel, but there's some similarity.
>
> When I see "maroon" I'm sometimes reminded of Bugs Bunny saying
> "What a maroon", using a word that rhymes with "raccoon". Is that
> the way the colour is pronounced in AmE, or is it merely a bugsism?
>
"bosom". I don't know if Bugs originated it.
CDB
> Robert Bannister filted:
>>
>> For me, "mauve" and "taupe" have the "cove" vowel. I have heard
>> "tawp", but never "mawv".
>
> encountered...this may be because it's homophonous with "top" for
> the CIC....r
>
I think this is a more important distinction for people who pronounce
"mawv" / mOv/, more or less like the French word, but "cove" either /
k@ ov/ or / kEwv/. (Funny spacing in IPA spellings is intended to
prevent conversion to italics or faux-URLs.)
R H Draney
>
>Peter Moylan wrote:
>>
>> When I see "maroon" I'm sometimes reminded of Bugs Bunny saying
>> "What a maroon", using a word that rhymes with "raccoon". Is that
>> the way the colour is pronounced in AmE, or is it merely a bugsism?
>>
>I presume it's a humorous exaggeration of "moron", as "bazoom" is of
>"bosom". I don't know if Bugs originated it.
For those who pronounce the color so it *doesn't* rhyme with "raccoon", does it
ruin the joke about the shipwrecked sailors who gorge themselves on the bright
red fruit they find on the desert island, only to wake the next morning and find
their skin now bright red, exclaiming "we're marooned!"?...r
Jerry Friedman
...
> For those who pronounce the color so it *doesn't* rhyme with "raccoon",
(Which I'd never heard of in all my born days--are there any other
words in -oon that don't rhyme with "raccoon" in AusE?)
> does it
> ruin the joke about the shipwrecked sailors who gorge themselves on the bright
> red fruit they find on the desert island, only to wake the next morning and find
> their skin now bright red, exclaiming "we're marooned!"?...r
When telling this joke to normal trichromats, I think you're better
off not using "bright red" for "maroon".
--
Jerry Friedman can't tell maroon from burgundy, and is currently
wearing a shirt that's probably one of those colors.
Jerry Friedman
> Lewis wrote:
> > In article <82js39Fi2...@mid.individual.net>,
> > "Default User" <defaultuse...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flying_Sorcerers
>
> > I've never heard of that. I *must* read it.
>
> Yes, you must. One of my favourites.
Maybe I should too, then.
This would be a good time to point out that David Gerrold's real name
is Jerrold Friedman.
--
Gerald Friedman
Donna Richoux
> "Lewis":
> > > I've always pronounced mauve as if it had the same vowel as Maude...
> > > I heard it today pronounced to rhyme with cove, with the o sound at the
> > > beginning of 'over'. That is, a distinctly full, long-o sound.
>
> Donna Richoux:
> > "Mauve" was originally a French word, so it makes sense to me that it
> > would still have that "French au" that I think we all put into "au pair"
> > and "gauche."
>
> We do? I pronounce all these words with a long O, which is how my
> English-speaking ears perceive the French sound.
I think that's what I said. And if I go any farther, I will get into one
of those impossibly-tangled pronunciation discussions.
James Silverton
Interesting but why?
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Robert Bannister
> annily wrote:
>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>>> Before you do that, you might consider the Australian pronunciation of
>>> "maroon" which is much closer to "marron" than BrE.
>> Do you mean "maroon" pronounced to rhyme with "bone"? That's how I've
>> always pronounced the colour (but not the verb).
>
> Me too. I think that's the standard AusE pronunciation.
>
>> How is it close to "marron", which is stressed on the first syllable
>> and has a schwa for the second vowel?
>
> You mean a sort of yabbie? Yes, that's pronounced like "marinated"
> without the "ated", but I don't think that's what he meant. The French
> word "marron", which is the same colour as our "maroon" - to the extent
> that colours can be the same in different languages, which is not very
> far - has equal stress on both syllables. Admittedly the ending is
> nasalised, and the vowel isn't quite the "bone" vowel, but there's some
> similarity.
Thank you for explaining that part.
>
> When I see "maroon" I'm sometimes reminded of Bugs Bunny saying "What a
> maroon", using a word that rhymes with "raccoon". Is that the way the
> colour is pronounced in AmE, or is it merely a bugsism?
>
Also in BrE.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
I can do that with Yeats with no shame.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
Oddly enough, I find more women do this than men.
--
Rob Bannister
Pat Durkin
"Robert Bannister" <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:82n88g...@mid.individual.net...
> ke...@cam.ac.uk wrote:
>> In article <hq4jh6$jdl$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> Pat Durkin <durk...@msn.com> wrote:
>>> I don't think so. But, of course, a divorced man and an engaged
>>> (to be married) male are referred to with the "feminine ending"
>>> here in the
>>
>> AAMOI, why is one of the above a man and the other a male?
Well, I did it without thinking, so I can't explain it. I might
conjecture that it is a habit that dates from first year high school
composition. The emphasis was to avoid boring repetition by varying
references. But I did _not_ do it self-consciously, which I might don
(have done) if preparing a treatise.
R H Draney
>> ruin the joke about the shipwrecked sailors who gorge themselves on the b=
>right
>> red fruit they find on the desert island, only to wake the next morning a=
>nd find
>> their skin now bright red, exclaiming "we're marooned!"?...r
>
>When telling this joke to normal trichromats, I think you're better
>off not using "bright red" for "maroon".
Damn....
I honestly was going to go back before posting and change both occurences of
"bright red" to "deep red" or something like it, got caught up in the string of
punctuation at the end of the line, and forgot to do the edit....r
Jerry Friedman
wrote:
> Jerry wrote on Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:05:32 -0700 (PDT):
>
> > On Apr 14, 8:37 am, Peter Moylan <gro.nalyomp@retep> wrote:
> >> Lewis wrote:
> > >> In article <82js39Fi2...@mid.individual.net>,
> > >> "Default User" <defaultuse...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flying_Sorcerers
>
> > >> I've never heard of that. I *must* read it.
>
> >> Yes, you must. One of my favourites.
> > Maybe I should too, then.
> > This would be a good time to point out that David Gerrold's
> > real name is Jerrold Friedman.
>
> Interesting but why?
Because it's a homonym of my name. I was sort of half-jokingly but
not really funnily pretending to assume people would be interested in
this coincidence.
(His full name is Jerrold David Friedman, by the way.)
--
Gerald Friedman is doing a lot of explaining this evening.
Jerry Friedman
wrote:
> On Apr 14, 9:46 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:> On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:28:16 +0800, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >For me, "mauve" and "taupe" have the "cove" vowel. I have heard "tawp",
> > >but never "mawv".
>
> > A fellow student of my cousin in art school announced one day "I'm going all
> > Fauve".
>
> > He pronounced it to rhyme with mauve and cove.
Is there another way? That's the only pronunciation in the NSOED.
--
Jerry Friedman
Steve Hayes
I was just wondering if those who pronounced mauve differently pronounced
Fauve another way as well.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontemailme> wrote:
>In article <qvvas55mn2jhal29f...@4ax.com>,
> Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 16:59:56 +1000, Peter Moylan <gro.nalyomp@retep> wrote:
>>
>> >When I see "maroon" I'm sometimes reminded of Bugs Bunny saying "What a
>> >maroon", using a word that rhymes with "raccoon". Is that the way the
>> >colour is pronounced in AmE, or is it merely a bugsism?
>>
>> Dunno about AmE, but it's pronounced to rhyme with raccoon in my dialect.
>
>Bugs was saying "What a moron" and pronouncing it 'maroon' as a joke.
Which rhymes with "bufoon".
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
Are any of you Friedmans related to Brian Friedman, popular concert
director, choreographer, actor, dancer, etc., etc.?
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0295166/
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
Also with the more familiar "buffoon".
Steve Hayes
I've just discovered what a galloon is, which I previously called "those
ribbon thingies".
It reminded me of Vonnegut's "Cat's cradle", where there was a similar word
that meant something in the Bokononist religion, so I began re-reading the
book and then remembered that it was a grandfalloon or grandfallon or
something.
I don't recall Bugs Bunny saying anything about maroons, though.
Pat Durkin
"Steve Hayes" <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote in message
news:uidds5d4jtmhoc6ld...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 22:11:03 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Apr 14, 4:13 am, franzi <et.in.arcadia.fra...@googlemail.com>
>>wrote:
>>> On Apr 14, 9:46 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:> On
>>> Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:28:16 +0800, Robert Bannister
>>> <robb...@bigpond.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> > >For me, "mauve" and "taupe" have the "cove" vowel. I have heard
>>> > >"tawp",
>>> > >but never "mawv".
>>>
>>> > A fellow student of my cousin in art school announced one day
>>> > "I'm going all
>>> > Fauve".
>>>
>>> > He pronounced it to rhyme with mauve and cove.
>>
>>Is there another way? That's the only pronunciation in the NSOED.
>
> I was just wondering if those who pronounced mauve differently
> pronounced
> Fauve another way as well.
>
>
I doubt you will often find people who pronounce "mauve" as "mawve"
using any reference to Fauve whatsoever.
Pat Durkin
"Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:neids5dgho4sm9u54...@4ax.com...
And reminds me of the joking representation of bosoms as "bazooms".
(I think comic actress Betty Hutton used that in a movie back in the
50s--or Bob Hope talking about Jane Russell's attributes.)
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
That is still in use in BrE.
Adam Funk
> In article <hq4jh6$jdl$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Pat Durkin <durk...@msn.com> wrote:
>>
>>I don't think so. But, of course, a divorced man and an engaged (to be
>>married) male are referred to with the "feminine ending" here in the
>
> AAMOI, why is one of the above a man and the other a male?
>
> I find it vaguely irritating, though I don't know why, when people say things
> like "I saw a female with green hair
> today", or "there was a male cutting the grass" - it sounds like a police
> report, but some people seem to use the words as alternatives to "woman" and
> "man".
"We proceeded to 33 Whatsit Street and observed a white male cutting
the grass."
--
I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway;
Whatever it is, I'm against it! [Prof. Wagstaff]
Robin Bignall
If the illustrations on his pulp fiction are anything to go by, Edgar
Rice Burroughs was not thinking of canals when he called Mars Barsoom.
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England
tsuidf
>
> This would be a good time to point out that David Gerrold's real name
> is Jerrold Friedman.
I think you've just made the sheep look up.
Jerry Friedman
Christ, what an imagination you've got.
--
Jerry Friedman wrote that for the Omrud.
Jerry Friedman
wrote:
Not this one, as far as I know.
When the Jews in Europe were forced to adopt surnames, Friedman was a
popular choice, so there's not necessarily any particular connection
between Friedmans the way there is with some surnames (such as
Duncanson?).
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
There aren't many Duncansons. I think it likely that we have a shared
ancestry.
Peter Moylan
> On 2010-04-14, ke...@cam.ac.uk wrote:
>
>> In article <hq4jh6$jdl$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> Pat Durkin <durk...@msn.com> wrote:
>>> I don't think so. But, of course, a divorced man and an engaged (to be
>>> married) male are referred to with the "feminine ending" here in the
>> AAMOI, why is one of the above a man and the other a male?
>>
>> I find it vaguely irritating, though I don't know why, when people say things
>> like "I saw a female with green hair
>> today", or "there was a male cutting the grass" - it sounds like a police
>> report, but some people seem to use the words as alternatives to "woman" and
>> "man".
>
> "We proceeded to 33 Whatsit Street and observed a white male cutting
> the grass."
>
accurate reports, but they have to be careful not to give offence.
Mentioning the sex of a suspect might be discriminatory, so they mention
the gender instead.
Compare: "a person of aboriginal appearance". They're not allowed to say
that he was an aboriginal, only that he looked like one.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
>
> When the Jews in Europe were forced to adopt surnames, Friedman was a
> popular choice, so there's not necessarily any particular connection
> between Friedmans the way there is with some surnames (such as
> Duncanson?).
>
Austro-Hungarian (and Czecho-Slovak, Galician [Polish, Ukrainian])
regions chose the German surname "Friedmann," which literally means
"peace-man": most, if not all, were originally named "Solomon,"
"Shlomo" and variants.
"Solomon" (Hebrew _Shelômôh_) is derived from _shâlôm_ = "peace" =
German _Friede(n)_. Those who now spell their name with only one <n>
("Friedman") most likely Anglicized their original German name
("Friedmann") by dropping the final <-n> or had it dropped by
immigration bureaucrats.
--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
"El hombre es tantas veces hombre cuanto
es el número de lenguas que ha aprendido".
-- Carlos I (Rey de España)
Steve Hayes
>On 2010-04-14, ke...@cam.ac.uk wrote:
>
>> In article <hq4jh6$jdl$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> Pat Durkin <durk...@msn.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>I don't think so. But, of course, a divorced man and an engaged (to be
>>>married) male are referred to with the "feminine ending" here in the
>>
>> AAMOI, why is one of the above a man and the other a male?
>>
>> I find it vaguely irritating, though I don't know why, when people say things
>> like "I saw a female with green hair
>> today", or "there was a male cutting the grass" - it sounds like a police
>> report, but some people seem to use the words as alternatives to "woman" and
>> "man".
>
>"We proceeded to 33 Whatsit Street and observed a white male cutting
>the grass."
"in a northerly direction"
Steve Hayes
>Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2010-04-14, ke...@cam.ac.uk wrote:
>>
>>> In article <hq4jh6$jdl$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>> Pat Durkin <durk...@msn.com> wrote:
>>>> I don't think so. But, of course, a divorced man and an engaged (to be
>>>> married) male are referred to with the "feminine ending" here in the
>>> AAMOI, why is one of the above a man and the other a male?
>>>
>>> I find it vaguely irritating, though I don't know why, when people say things
>>> like "I saw a female with green hair
>>> today", or "there was a male cutting the grass" - it sounds like a police
>>> report, but some people seem to use the words as alternatives to "woman" and
>>> "man".
>>
>> "We proceeded to 33 Whatsit Street and observed a white male cutting
>> the grass."
>>
>It's the police response to a dilemma. They are supposed to give
>accurate reports, but they have to be careful not to give offence.
>Mentioning the sex of a suspect might be discriminatory, so they mention
>the gender instead.
Eh?
So they would say "an apparently human person white and masculine in
appearance"?
R H Draney
>
>On 2010-04-14, ke...@cam.ac.uk wrote:
>
>>I find it vaguely irritating, though I don't know why, when people say things
>> like "I saw a female with green hair
>> today", or "there was a male cutting the grass" - it sounds like a police
>> report, but some people seem to use the words as alternatives to "woman" and
>> "man".
>
>"We proceeded to 33 Whatsit Street and observed a white male cutting
>the grass."
"...observed a male, white on the side nearest the street, cutting the grass."
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>
>> When the Jews in Europe were forced to adopt surnames, Friedman was
>> a popular choice, so there's not necessarily any particular
>> connection between Friedmans the way there is with some surnames
>> (such as Duncanson?).
>>
> There's a good reason why many Jews living in German and
> Austro-Hungarian (and Czecho-Slovak, Galician [Polish, Ukrainian])
> regions chose the German surname "Friedmann," which literally means
> "peace-man": most, if not all, were originally named "Solomon,"
> "Shlomo" and variants.
>
> "Solomon" (Hebrew _Shelômôh_) is derived from _shâlôm_ = "peace" =
> German _Friede(n)_.
Interesting. I hadn't known that, although in retrospect it makes a
lot of sense. Would it have been the "Shlomo"s or the "ben Shlomo"s
who did that? That is, did they Germanicize their given names or
their patronymics? Are their any other Jewish surnames that are
calques of Hebrew names?
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Usenet is like Tetris for people
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |who still remember how to read.
Palo Alto, CA 94304
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Evan Kirshenbaum
> I've just discovered what a galloon is, which I previously called
> "those ribbon thingies".
Cognate with Spanish "galón", whence the cowboy's "ten-gallon hat".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |"Algebra? But that's far too
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |difficult for seven-year-olds!"
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |
|"Yes, but I didn't tell them that
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |and so far they haven't found out,"
(650)857-7572 |said Susan.
Jerry Friedman
> Reinhold {Rey} Aman <a...@sonic.net> writes:
>
> > Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> >> When the Jews in Europe were forced to adopt surnames, Friedman was
> >> a popular choice, so there's not necessarily any particular
> >> connection between Friedmans the way there is with some surnames
> >> (such as Duncanson?).
>
> > There's a good reason why many Jews living in German and
> > Austro-Hungarian (and Czecho-Slovak, Galician [Polish, Ukrainian])
> > regions chose the German surname "Friedmann," which literally means
> > "peace-man": most, if not all, were originally named "Solomon,"
> > "Shlomo" and variants.
>
> > "Solomon" (Hebrew _Shelômôh_) is derived from _shâlôm_ = "peace" =
> > German _Friede(n)_.
>
> Interesting. I hadn't known that, although in retrospect it makes a
> lot of sense. Would it have been the "Shlomo"s or the "ben Shlomo"s
> who did that? That is, did they Germanicize their given names or
> their patronymics?
I've long wondered that.
> Are their any other Jewish surnames that are
> calques of Hebrew names?
Gottlieb = Yochanan?
Of course there's the well-known Hebrew name `etz-duvdevan.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> > When the Jews in Europe were forced to adopt surnames, Friedman was a
> > popular choice, so there's not necessarily any particular connection
> > between Friedmans the way there is with some surnames (such as
> > Duncanson?).
>
> There's a good reason why many Jews living in German and
> Austro-Hungarian (and Czecho-Slovak, Galician [Polish, Ukrainian])
> regions chose the German surname "Friedmann," which literally means
> "peace-man": most, if not all, were originally named "Solomon,"
> "Shlomo" and variants.
I'd suspected that some of them just liked "shalom", since so many
other Ashkenazic Jewish surnames come from things the Jews liked
(gold, roses, etc.)
Are Russians named "Fridman" descended from immigrants to Russia from
Germany and Austria-Hungary?
> "Solomon" (Hebrew _Shelômôh_) is derived from _shâlôm_ = "peace" =
> German _Friede(n)_. Those who now spell their name with only one <n>
> ("Friedman") most likely Anglicized their original German name
> ("Friedmann") by dropping the final <-n> or had it dropped by
> immigration bureaucrats.
Or they had already Yiddishized it in the old country, right?
--
Jerry Friedman
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Apr 14, 3:24 pm, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> ...
>
>> For those who pronounce the color so it *doesn't* rhyme with "raccoon",
>
> (Which I'd never heard of in all my born days--are there any other
> words in -oon that don't rhyme with "raccoon" in AusE?)
"zoon" /zoU An/ works in AmE, though it's not a particularly common word.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |When you're ready to break a rule,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |you _know_ that you're ready; you
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |don't need anyone else to tell
|you. (If you're not that certain,
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |then you're _not_ ready.)
(650)857-7572 | Tom Phoenix
Evan Kirshenbaum
How would that affect the spelling in Latin letters? My ancestors
(Yiddish speakers from Poland) are on ships' manifests as
"Kirschenbaum" and "Kirszenbaum", and managed to become "Kirshenbaum"
on entry to the US. I doubt that they had any particular attachment
to any spelling other than in Hebrew letters (if even that). Latin
letters (and Polish) would have been for dealing with the government
and for school.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Now and then an innocent man is sent
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to the legislature.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Kim Hubbard
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Default User
"R H Draney" <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:hq8pi...@drn.newsguy.com...
> Adam Funk filted:
>>
>>On 2010-04-14, ke...@cam.ac.uk wrote:
>>
>>>I find it vaguely irritating, though I don't know why, when people say
>>>things
>>> like "I saw a female with green hair
>>> today", or "there was a male cutting the grass" - it sounds like a
>>> police
>>> report, but some people seem to use the words as alternatives to "woman"
>>> and
>>> "man".
>>
>>"We proceeded to 33 Whatsit Street and observed a white male cutting
>>the grass."
>
> "...observed a male, white on the side nearest the street, cutting the
> grass."
If they want to be Fair Witnesses.
Brian
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
>
> Reinhold {Rey} Aman writes:
>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>
>>> When the Jews in Europe were forced to adopt surnames, Friedman
>>> was a popular choice, so there's not necessarily any particular
>>> connection between Friedmans the way there is with some surnames
>>> (such as Duncanson?).
>
>> There's a good reason why many Jews living in German and
>> Austro-Hungarian (and Czecho-Slovak, Galician [Polish, Ukrainian])
>> regions chose the German surname "Friedmann," which literally means
>> "peace-man": most, if not all, were originally named "Solomon,"
>> "Shlomo" and variants.
>>
>> "Solomon" (Hebrew _Shelômôh_) is derived from _shâlôm_ = "peace" =
>> German _Friede(n)_.
>
> Interesting. I hadn't known that, although in retrospect it makes a
> lot of sense. Would it have been the "Shlomo"s or the "ben Shlomo"s
> who did that? That is, did they Germanicize their given names or
> their patronymics? Are their any other Jewish surnames that are
> calques of Hebrew names?
>
fortune) was Germanized to "Glückstein" (luck-stone), "Glücklich"
(lucky, fortunate; happy) or "Glückmann" (luck-man).
Also, those who just added the German _Sohn_ (son) to their Hebrew
patronymic merely translated the Hebrew _ben_ (son). Thus "Mosheh ben
Ya'aqobh" (= Mosheh [the] son [of] Ya'aqobh] became "Moses Jakob(s)sohn"
(= Moses Jacob's son). This way, they kept their Hebrew names but also
obeyed the law to get a "real" name = a first name and a last name.
As to other German names, I'm sure most Jews replaced only the Hebrew
*patronymic*, because there are many German/Austrian/Hungarian/Polish
Jews who kept their Hebrew first names but adopted German last names,
such as:
-- Moses Mendelssohn
-- Saul Oppenheimer
-- Abraham Goldstein
-- Salomon Friedmann
-- Nathan Silberberg
-- Isak Rosenzweig
-- Benjamin Perlmutter
-- Aaron Rubinstein
-- Sarah Aaronsohn
-- Esther Apfelbaum
-- Hannah Bernstein, &c.
I think if you look at your ancestors' names, you'll find such
Hebrew-German combinations, e.g., Salomon Kirschenbaum/Kirszenbaum.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> As to other German names, I'm sure most Jews replaced only the Hebrew
> *patronymic*, because there are many German/Austrian/Hungarian/Polish
> Jews who kept their Hebrew first names but adopted German last names,
> such as:
>
> -- Moses Mendelssohn
> -- Saul Oppenheimer
> -- Abraham Goldstein
> -- Salomon Friedmann
> -- Nathan Silberberg
> -- Isak Rosenzweig
> -- Benjamin Perlmutter
> -- Aaron Rubinstein
> -- Sarah Aaronsohn
> -- Esther Apfelbaum
> -- Hannah Bernstein, &c.
>
> I think if you look at your ancestors' names, you'll find such
> Hebrew-German combinations, e.g., Salomon Kirschenbaum/Kirszenbaum.
Sure, but I can't push my ancestors back past about the 1820s, which I
believe is a bit later than such naming requirements. But my question
was specifically about calques. Clearly, for the arbitrary names,
they were just added on and the "-sohn" names were based on the
patronymics. It was specifically the surnames chosen because of their
semantic resemblance to Hebrew names that I was curious about.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |He seems to be perceptive and
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |effective because he states the
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |obvious to people that don't seem
|to see the obvious.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |
(650)857-7572 | Tony Cooper
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
>
> Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>
>>> When the Jews in Europe were forced to adopt surnames, Friedman
>>> was a popular choice, so there's not necessarily any particular
>>> connection between Friedmans the way there is with some surnames
>>> (such as Duncanson?).
>
>> There's a good reason why many Jews living in German and
>> Austro-Hungarian (and Czecho-Slovak, Galician [Polish, Ukrainian])
>> regions chose the German surname "Friedmann," which literally
>> means "peace-man": most, if not all, were originally named
>> "Solomon," "Shlomo" and variants.
>
> I'd suspected that some of them just liked "shalom", since so many
> other Ashkenazic Jewish surnames come from things the Jews liked
> (gold, roses, etc.)
>
pearls, precious stones), the flowery, ornate, romantic names chosen by
Central- and East-European Jews meaning "morning dew" (Morgenthau/
Morgentau), "morning star" (Morgenstern), "star" (Stern), "moonlight"
(Mondschein), "rose twig" (Rosenzweig), "rose petal" (Rosenblatt),
"cherry blossom" (Kirschenblüt), "flower" (Blume; Anglicized: Bloom),
"field of flowers" (Blumenfeld; Anglicized: Bloomfield), "beautiful
mountain" (Schönberg), "silvery dale/valley/vale" (Silberthal/
Silbertal), and many more were caused or influenced by *romanticism*,
the late-18th-century intellectual movement.
>
> Are Russians named "Fridman" descended from immigrants to Russia
> from Germany and Austria-Hungary?
>
Cyrillic and Hebrew letters spelled <fridman>. See below.
>
>> "Solomon" (Hebrew _Shelômôh_) is derived from _shâlôm_ = "peace" =
>> German _Friede(n)_. Those who now spell their name with only one
>> <n> ("Friedman") most likely Anglicized their original German name
>> ("Friedmann") by dropping the final <-n> or had it dropped by
>> immigration bureaucrats.
>
> Or they had already Yiddishized it in the old country, right?
>
writing it with *Hebrew* letters, but not when writing it with Roman
ones. Central- and East-European Jews named "Friedmann" wrote their
names either with Roman letters as "Friedmann" or with Cyrillic letters
as "Fridman" or with Hebrew letters as "Fridman" (or, rather, "namdirF"
<---), because Russian and Yiddish have no need for and don't use German
vowel-shortening double <n>s (nn) and vowel-lengthening silent <e>s;
thus they just dropped the needless, superfluous <e> and <n>.
Jerry Friedman
Remarkable how many of those surnames belong to people I knew before I
moved to New Mexico.
But my question is whether some Friedmans could have chosen the name
for Romantic reasons rather than being Shlomo or ben Shlomo.
> > Are Russians named "Fridman" descended from immigrants to Russia
> > from Germany and Austria-Hungary?
>
> Yes, because "Friedmann" and "Fridman" are pronounced alike and in
> Cyrillic and Hebrew letters spelled <fridman>. See below.
I'd thought at least some Germanic surnames of Russian Jews (Anton
Rubinshteyn, David Bronshteyn, etc., Simon Rosenbaum [had to look him
up]) were of Yiddish origin.
> >> "Solomon" (Hebrew _Shelômôh_) is derived from _shâlôm_ = "peace" =
> >> German _Friede(n)_. Those who now spell their name with only one
> >> <n> ("Friedman") most likely Anglicized their original German name
> >> ("Friedmann") by dropping the final <-n> or had it dropped by
> >> immigration bureaucrats.
>
> > Or they had already Yiddishized it in the old country, right?
>
> Well, you could say they Yiddishized their name (one <n>) ONLY when
> writing it with *Hebrew* letters, but not when writing it with Roman
> ones. Central- and East-European Jews named "Friedmann" wrote their
> names either with Roman letters as "Friedmann" or with Cyrillic letters
> as "Fridman" or with Hebrew letters as "Fridman" (or, rather, "namdirF"
> <---),
Heh.
> because Russian and Yiddish have no need for and don't use German
> vowel-shortening double <n>s (nn) and vowel-lengthening silent <e>s;
> thus they just dropped the needless, superfluous <e> and <n>.
I was imagining immigrants who knew the Roman letters well enough to
spell their name at Ellis Island, but not well enough to remember that
two n's were required in German, unlike in Yiddish. But it seems
you're saying there weren't any.
--
Jerry Friedman
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> writes:
>
>> I've just discovered what a galloon is, which I previously called
>> "those ribbon thingies".
>
>Cognate with Spanish "galón", whence the cowboy's "ten-gallon hat".
Ah, and there I was thinking of hats for fatheads!
John Holmes
> Peter Moylan wrote:
>> annily wrote:
>>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>>>> Before you do that, you might consider the Australian
>>>> pronunciation of "maroon" which is much closer to "marron" than
>>>> BrE.
>>> Do you mean "maroon" pronounced to rhyme with "bone"? That's how
>>> I've always pronounced the colour (but not the verb).
>>
>> Me too. I think that's the standard AusE pronunciation.
>>
>>> How is it close to "marron", which is stressed on the first syllable
>>> and has a schwa for the second vowel?
>>
>> You mean a sort of yabbie? Yes, that's pronounced like "marinated"
>> without the "ated", but I don't think that's what he meant. The
>> French word "marron", which is the same colour as our "maroon" - to
>> the extent that colours can be the same in different languages,
>> which is not very far - has equal stress on both syllables.
>> Admittedly the ending is nasalised, and the vowel isn't quite the
>> "bone" vowel, but there's some similarity.
>
> Thank you for explaining that part.
I thought that we got the colour name from its use by the Dutch/Flemish
master painters, and that was why we use that spelling and the
Dutch -oon pronunciation.
>
>>
>> When I see "maroon" I'm sometimes reminded of Bugs Bunny saying
>> "What a maroon", using a word that rhymes with "raccoon". Is that
>> the way the colour is pronounced in AmE, or is it merely a bugsism?
>>
>
> Also in BrE.
I have certainly heard it from some Britons, but perhaps it is now an
old-fashioned pronunciation there.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au