"nappy-headed hos"
Jone
the meaning from m-w.com seem to fit.
Main Entry: 1napĄPpy
Pronunciation: 'na-pE
Function: noun
Etymology: obsolete nappy, adjective, foaming
chiefly Scottish : LIQUOR; specifically : ALE
Main Entry: 2nappy
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural nappies
Etymology: English dialect nap bowl, from Middle English, from
Old English hn[AE]pp; akin to Old High German hnapf bowl
: a rimless shallow open serving dish
Main Entry: 3nappy
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural nappies
Etymology: napkin + 4-y
chiefly British : DIAPER 3
Main Entry: 4nappy
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): napĄPpiĄPer; -est
Etymology: 3nap
: KINKY 1
But I can see how he can be fired just by calling some nice
college students 'hos'.
Ray O'Hara
"Jone" <Jo...@doe.com> wrote in message
news:461d9db7$0$30758$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
> m-w.com tells me what 'ho' means. But what's 'nappy'? None of
> the meaning from m-w.com seem to fit.
Basically it means close to the head.. It rfers to the tight to the head
curly hair of African people.
It sounds worse than what it means.
The Usual Suspect
> "Jone" <J...@doe.com> wrote in message
As an expert on naps, having been born with them, it means Black Hair
in its natural, unrelaxed state: The "Afro" if you prefer. My hair
is partly straight, so my naps look more like a Jheri Curl from the
70's.
Depending on the thickness and amount of curl to the hair, some naps
are really nappy. The curls are close together that the hair feels
like it has a nap, like fabric. The famous U.S. Army "Buffalo
Soldiers" were called that by the Indians because they compared their
hair to the Buffalo pelt.
Unkempt, hair is also referred to as "Naps". i.e. "You need to do
something about those Naps!"
Other races and ethnics have naps, too. I've heard my White friends
complain that their frizzy hair was "nappy".
Don Imus, on the other hand, is a miserable puke who is FIRED from
MSNBC! YeeeeeHah!
Tony Cooper
<ludmil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Is he? Have you ever listened to Don Imus? Do you know the nature of
his show? Did you have a sense that Imus was a "miserable puke"
before he mentioned the Rutgers girl's basketball team? Did you have
any indication of any kind that he was racist, bigoted, or even
slightly biased before this remark?
Was this a lapse of taste or an indication of character?
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Hatunen
It means "kinky" in the sense of "closely twisted or curled" and
refers to Black women's hair (in this particular context).
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
The Usual Suspect
>
> Tony Cooper
> Orlando, FL- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I've watched Imus on his MSNBC simulcast many times and have listened
to his radio show on and off for ages. I have had a clear and well
educated understanding that Imus has always been an immature racist,
since the miserable puke was the first so-called "shock jock". He
said equally disgusting and racist things about Venus and Serena
Williams at the peak of their accomplishments, and about Jews,
Catholics and others. He's been exposed by a well qualified authors
for years.
My CV is really none of your business, but I hope that the other
posters get my outrage and response to your trolling.
Ray O'Hara
"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:n6cr13h031rblbf57...@4ax.com...
Don Imus has made his career based on being a miserable puke.
> Tony Cooper
> Orlando, FL
Lars Eighner
lovely and talented Jone broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> m-w.com tells me what 'ho' means. But what's 'nappy'? None of
> the meaning from m-w.com seem to fit.
Why doesn't 4 seem to fit? I see it also in the print edition of MWCD11.
Also compare with the noun ^3nap.
> Main Entry: 1napĄPpy
> Pronunciation: 'na-pE
> Function: noun
> Etymology: obsolete nappy, adjective, foaming
> chiefly Scottish : LIQUOR; specifically : ALE
> Main Entry: 2nappy
> Function: noun
> Inflected Form(s): plural nappies
> Etymology: English dialect nap bowl, from Middle English, from
> Old English hn[AE]pp; akin to Old High German hnapf bowl
>: a rimless shallow open serving dish
> Main Entry: 3nappy
> Function: noun
> Inflected Form(s): plural nappies
> Etymology: napkin + 4-y
> chiefly British : DIAPER 3
> Main Entry: 4nappy
> Function: adjective
> Inflected Form(s): napĄPpiĄPer; -est
> Etymology: 3nap
>: KINKY 1
> But I can see how he can be fired just by calling some nice
> college students 'hos'.
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner>
Countdown: 649 days to go.
Chinese Terrorists:: Xuzhou Anying Biologic Technology Development Company Ltd.
Identified :: Wangdian Industrial Zone, Peixian, CN-32, China 221623
Archie Valparaiso
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrought:
Good question. Another is whether Mr Imus would have been fired if
he'd been black himself.[1]
I've seen a transcript of the remark in question in context, and it
seems clear enough to me that Imus was simply making an in-character
(i.e. shock-jockesque) reference to the culture that the Rutgers
players -- to judge from their lean, mean, multi-tattooed appearance
(and, in seven out of ten cases, their Newark, Bronx or Brooklyn
provenance) -- seemed quite proud to belong to.[2]
Or am I missing something?
[1. Which in turn is pretty much the same question as whether Sacha
Baron-Cohen would have got away with Borat if he wasn't Jewish.]
[1. Actually, m'lud, I gather young people actually pronounce it
"hip-hop", not "hiffop".]
--
Archie Valparaiso
_________________
Careful with that or you'll have someone's eye out.
Jone
<ludmil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
So 'nappy' doesn't sound like a bad word. So what's offensive in
this case? Calling black players in the team 'hos'?
Tony Cooper
I don't think so. He was commenting on the scrappy attitude and
appearance of the players. He used a word - ho's - that has been
popularized by blacks and applied by them to describe all women except
their mothers. I thought the use of "nappy" was more questionable
since it's a comment on stereotyped appearance.
Tony Cooper
<ludmil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I'm not trolling. I'm asking straight questions. Too many people
make decisions based on incidents that they've read reports about
without any knowledge of the genre involved. My questions were
directed to discovering if you were one of these people.
I've listened to Imus, and what I hear is a person that deliberately
shocks people, but deliberately shocks across the board and includes
all races and subgroups. He does not appear to me to be a person who
feels that one race is superior to another race.
If you want to be outraged, why not be outraged at the black music
personalities and comedians who have popularized "ho" as an acceptable
and usual description of women? The word has been placed out there to
be used, but without the warning that it can only be used certain
people.
Your use of "trolling" is amusing. Reverend Something (it wasn't
Sharpton) said in an interview that I heard on the radio that the
Rutgers girls were "scarred for life" by Imus's comment. I really do
have a problem with the idea that an 18 year old black girl from New
Jersey is going to be scarred emotionally because she was referred to
as a "ho". A girl who probably has umpteen CDs with someone shouting
"ho" over and over again between uses of other denigrating and racist
terms. A girls that pays money to buy a CD by a performer who insults
her and her race. Talk about trolling.
>He's been exposed by a well qualified authors
>for years.
Exposed? You mean some "well qualified" person wrote a book that says
that Imus deliberately shocks people by what he says? Hell, you don't
need to buy a book to know that. Just listen to the radio.
Donna Richoux
> So 'nappy' doesn't sound like a bad word. So what's offensive in
> this case? Calling black players in the team 'hos'?
"The Usual Suspect" went overboard in trying to define the literal
definition of "nappy". "Nappy," "nap," "nappyhead" and "naphead" have
been insults within the black community for a long time, along the lines
of ugly, backwards, and disgusting.
The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang has (in part):
1954 DAS Nap [=derog] A Negro.
1956 in DAS: To call a man nappy is to say his hair
is kinky -- a real insult.
1983 A new teenspeak ... In Atlanta, it's "nappy"
for disgusting ...
nappy-head, Black E. an unsophisticated black person
-- used derisively. Also naphead. 1943 You sure a
passel of nappy haids.
For much of the 20th century, sophisticated African-Americans
straightened their hair. Therefore they would tend to scorn those who
did not.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
the Omrud
> Jone <Jo...@doe.com> wrote:
>
> > So 'nappy' doesn't sound like a bad word. So what's offensive in
> > this case? Calling black players in the team 'hos'?
>
> "The Usual Suspect" went overboard in trying to define the literal
> definition of "nappy". "Nappy," "nap," "nappyhead" and "naphead" have
> been insults within the black community for a long time, along the lines
> of ugly, backwards, and disgusting.
FWIW I'm not familiar with this use in the UK. It's possible I've
not been in the circles where it would be used, but I had never heard
it before now.
--
David
=====
Tony Cooper
wrote:
You're not alone. I knew the word, and the meanings and associations
with it, but I don't think I've seen or heard the word in use for 30
or 40 years.
However, I don't listen to "black" music...hip-hop, rap, the like.
It's quite possible that the word has emerged in current use through
that venue. I note there's a hip-hop group called "Nappy Roots" and
another called "Nappy Headz".
I don't know if the word is used in lyrics or not. The "lyrics" I
hear from the car next to me at the stoplight are obscured by the
booming bass and the rattle of doors and car body parts.
Donna says the term is "ugly, backwards, and disgusting". How are
*we* to know, though? The term is promoted by black people in "music"
performed by black people and aimed at the black market. How are
people unfamiliar with the early connotations of the word to know that
it's a word that "they" can use but "we" can't?
How do you handle these things? You meet a guy who is a member of the
group "Nappy Headz", ask him if he's a nappy head, and find that you
are being racist and a "miserable puke".
Pat Durkin
"Jone" <Jo...@doe.com> wrote in message
news:461d9db7$0$30758$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
> m-w.com tells me what 'ho' means. But what's 'nappy'? None of
> the meaning from m-w.com seem to fit.
>
>
> Main Entry: 4nappy
> Function: adjective
> Inflected Form(s): napĄPpiĄPer; -est
> Etymology: 3nap
> : KINKY 1
>
> But I can see how he can be fired just by calling some nice
> college students 'hos'.
The 4th definition is the one referred to. "Nappy-headed, nappy-haired"
refers to the very tightly kinked hair that many Blacks have*. It is
the use of this stereo-typic description, plus the modern use of "ho"
that adds a both a doubled racist nickname and a sexist commentary to
refer to complete strangers who appear on the TV, going on about their
own pursuits without any injury to Imus.
*The hair, being neither very thick, nor very thin, appears thin when
close-cut, as the curls wind very tightly, revealing a lot of scalp
between the tufts of hair.
Now, my hair has always been quite thick, but I can recall the jerk my
black co-worker made when I mentioned that when wet or steamy, as just
after the shower, my hair got really kinky. The descriptions of "kinky
and frizzy" are hints to blacks that related aspersions may be in the
pipeline.
Just as children learn bad language and find it acceptable by hearing it
from their parents and peers, it seems to me that Imus, in his off-mike
moments, at his home and among his buddies, hears and uses the terms so
that in unguarded moments, they "slip out". If you listen to the clips,
you hear another person speak the "ho" word, as both are commenting on
the tattoos borne by the young women. It seems a reflex that Imus picks
up on a word-game cue and expands on it.
(And don't think the fact of comments on tattoos doesn't by itself bear
a load of, shall we say, homophobia? Female athletes, white or black,
from the time I was an undergrad, have had to be super-feminine, to help
fight off that snigger about "dykes" and the like.)
Personally, I find Imus' show to be one of the greater wastes of TV
bandwidth on air. Three hours of hearing an old man and his buddies
ramble on and on. "The View" is only one-third as bad, since it lasts
only one hour. Gossip, back-biting, snide remarks for both programs.
Grrr
> So 'nappy' doesn't sound like a bad word. So what's offensive in
> this case? Calling black players in the team 'hos'?
If the Rutgers team had won, then the crack would've passed
by "That's just Imus doing his shock jock routine", but the
ladies were noble losers, and he'll lose his job for not fighting
fair. In America we don't punch someone when they're down.
Well, maybe an Iraqi prisoner.
bayskater
"Ray O'Hara" <r...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:RZ-dnQce4vcNToDb...@comcast.com...
I wonder what the reaction would have been if Imus had called the girls
"miserable pukes".
Fred
>
>
>> Tony Cooper
>> Orlando, FL
>
>
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>The 4th definition is the one referred to. "Nappy-headed, nappy-haired"
>refers to the very tightly kinked hair that many Blacks have*. It is
>the use of this stereo-typic description, plus the modern use of "ho"
>that adds a both a doubled racist nickname and a sexist commentary to
>refer to complete strangers who appear on the TV, going on about their
>own pursuits without any injury to Imus.
>
You ever watch some of those comedy hours on HBO? Watch some black
comedian tell a joke at the Apollo, and watch the black audience break
up with laughter. But you can't tell the same joke. Change the
language, and it's no longer funny.
Chris Rock could joke about the nappy-headed ho's at Rutgers and
people would buy the CD. Don Imus does it, and the same people who
buy the CD of Rock want Imus fired.
As far as I'm concerned, if the term is offensive, then it's offensive
for *anyone* to use. If the blacks use it - as they do "nigger" and
"ho" - as part of their comedy acts and music, then they have no basis
to object when non-blacks use the same term.
The "we can, you can't" thing doesn't fly with me.
John Dean
I recollect watching 'Sommersby' (wow - *there's* 114 minutes of my life I
just reminded myself I'm never going to get back) and a white character at a
trial rants at the black judge, played by James Earl Jones, calling him a
"nappy headed (or possibly nappy haired) son of a bitch."
I didn't get the impression that the judge found "son of a bitch" offensive
but "nappy headed" neutral (or complimentary) and I don't think that's how
the writer intended it.
OED says of 'nappy':
" Fuzzy, kinky; used colloquially and freq. derogatorily of Negroes' hair.
So nappy-head, a Negro; nappy-haired, -headed adjs. U.S."
So I guess a lot depends on how you intend it. I know nothing of Mr Imus -
was he intending to be pleasant to the ladies in question?
--
John Dean
Oxford
bayskater
"Lars Eighner" <use...@larseighner.com> wrote in message
news:slrnf1rov1...@goodwill.larseighner.com...
While not condoning Imus's use of words, I am a bit surprised that Reverend
Sharpton didn't mention 'forgiveness" in his comments.
in today's world of atrocities, do Imus's inappropriate remarks qualify as
"unforgiveable", even to the clergy?
Fred
John Dean
The Nappy Headz perform lyrics like:
Hay Hay, i might ride dubs, i might have g's
But fuck that nigga i wanna spend yo cheese
Get on yo knees thats the way its gonna be
Make you bleed slow, telly ho bros bros trees like OD's
Hangin out a half back clownin, this is how we get down in my tow
http://www.songme.com/n/nappy_headz/various_songs/robbery.html
So maybe better not to mention it.
On the other hand, one of their tracks is apparently called "I'm Nappy" so
what do I know?
Seems to be one of those cases where it isn't just what you say, it's who
says it and what they intend.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Pat Durkin
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:48:57 GMT, "Pat Durkin" <dur...@sbc.com>
> wrote:
>
>>The 4th definition is the one referred to. "Nappy-headed,
>>nappy-haired"
>>refers to the very tightly kinked hair that many Blacks have*. It is
>>the use of this stereo-typic description, plus the modern use of "ho"
>>that adds a both a doubled racist nickname and a sexist commentary to
>>refer to complete strangers who appear on the TV, going on about their
>>own pursuits without any injury to Imus.
>>
> You ever watch some of those comedy hours on HBO? Watch some black
> comedian tell a joke at the Apollo, and watch the black audience break
> up with laughter. But you can't tell the same joke. Change the
> language, and it's no longer funny.
I don't get HBO, except on those free previews offered by my Dish
service.
I don't watch much comedy. "The Daily Show", yes. A few very unhappy
minutes watching "The Mind of Mencia", and some other Comedy Central
shows that specialize in horrendous insults cast by members of the
down-trodden groups. Margaret Cho. (I did like Bill Cosby, way, way
back when, and, of course Richard Pryor, as he was growing up.) But
ethnic humor palls after any extended time.
>
> Chris Rock could joke about the nappy-headed ho's at Rutgers and
> people would buy the CD. Don Imus does it, and the same people who
> buy the CD of Rock want Imus fired.
>
I agree. "Hipness" is all.
In my family, I am sometimes considered "out of it". I noticed it last
year when I confused "The Rock" with Chris Rock. And a few years before
that, when I got Michael Jackson and Michael Jordan mixed up. It's a
real conversation stopper.
> As far as I'm concerned, if the term is offensive, then it's offensive
> for *anyone* to use. If the blacks use it - as they do "nigger" and
> "ho" - as part of their comedy acts and music, then they have no basis
> to object when non-blacks use the same term.
>
> The "we can, you can't" thing doesn't fly with me.
I agree. But I got tired of keeping up with the Joneses back in my
undergrad days, and started dropping out of all of those social
competitions, so, for the most part, I tend to look at many of our
national pastimes with a jaundiced eye.
Pat Durkin
"John Dean" <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote in message
news:5871jpF...@mid.individual.net...
>
> I recollect watching 'Sommersby' (wow - *there's* 114 minutes of my
> life I just reminded myself I'm never going to get back) and a white
> character at a trial rants at the black judge, played by James Earl
> Jones, calling him a "nappy headed (or possibly nappy haired) son of a
> bitch."
> I didn't get the impression that the judge found "son of a bitch"
> offensive but "nappy headed" neutral (or complimentary) and I don't
> think that's how the writer intended it.
>
> OED says of 'nappy':
>
> " Fuzzy, kinky; used colloquially and freq. derogatorily of Negroes'
> hair. So nappy-head, a Negro; nappy-haired, -headed adjs. U.S."
>
> So I guess a lot depends on how you intend it. I know nothing of Mr
> Imus - was he intending to be pleasant to the ladies in question?
Not hardly. The ladies weren't present for him to be pleasant and
courtly to. I may be harsh, but to me the clips demonstrate a kind of
rapid "repartee", in which a discussion of the game and its players had
just been narrowed to the tattoos borne by some players. A speaker (one
news anchor later identifed the speaker as the Imus show's producer)
then said something about "ho"s, and Imus reflexively stated, in a most
natural manner, "nappy-headed hos". Picking up on a cue, so to speak.
It was the kind of meaningless, unconscious reply that one can't even
conceive of oneself being capable of uttering.
Stupid, stupid, stupid, and very indicative of what one's private
conversation is like during those moments of inconsequential gabble that
one makes while eating and reading the news, just knowing some
inconsiderate person has asked an unimportant chatty question.
No malice intended, of course, but the reflexive and game-playing nature
speaks volumes as to underlying habitual thought patterns. Is that what
"an unguarded moment" means?
Tony Cooper
<john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:
>So I guess a lot depends on how you intend it. I know nothing of Mr Imus -
>was he intending to be pleasant to the ladies in question?
He's been described here as a "shock jock" ("jock" coming from "disk
jockey, or radio personality), and that's pretty much what he does.
He's intelligent, politically aware, cutting-edge, and rude to many.
He's Jon Stewart with an edge, Stephen Colbert without the smooth
delivery, and Howard Stern without an obsession with tits or a massive
ego.
He has a radio talk show that is (now, was) simulcast on TV whereon he
just rambles as the mood strikes him. Sometimes boringly, sometimes
pointlessly, and sometimes very, very entertainingly.
In direct answer to your question, he was being neither kind nor
cruel. He was attempting to describe their scrappiness and court
attitude. Unfortunately, he chose the vernacular that the girls
themselves would use, and that's not permissible.
tinwhistler
[snip]
> How do you handle these things? You meet a guy who is a member of the
> group "Nappy Headz", ask him if he's a nappy head, and find that you
> are being racist and a "miserable puke".
[snip]
Don't you think if the media did a better job of alerting us to the
offensiveness of "nappy" and "nappy-headed," drawing on Donna's
excellent posting, the problem would be less likely to arise?
--
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
In my childhood, black kids often insulted other black kids by saying
their hair was nappy, but that was during the period when straightened
hair was least fashionable (late '60s and early '70s), and the cure
was an afro pick, not straightening. Kids would also say that their
own hair was nappy (maybe after swimming or taking a shower) and they
needed to comb or pick it. So at least at that time and place, it
didn't merely mean "kinky". I suspect "poorly groomed" is part of the
reason it's insulting.
--
Jerry Friedman
Pat Durkin
"tinwhistler" <ozzie...@post.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:1176395986....@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
some with print, some with obscenities, etc.)
How can they tell what they should be? Should they all only give Black
American slang and dialect, or should they all give all ethnic talk from
all points of view?
A receiver of a message is assumed to know what is appropriate for him
to use, and in what circumstances. Let the buyer beware! And the
originator should know his audience.
As we grow up, we all learn the circumstances in which certain language
is inappropriate. At 65 years of age, Imus, a professional fund-raiser
and communicator, had a major lapse. If he hasn't learned by now, he
never will learn.
Grrr
> In direct answer to your question, he was being neither kind nor
> cruel. He was attempting to describe their scrappiness and court
> attitude. Unfortunately, he chose the vernacular that the girls
> themselves would use, and that's not permissible.
How do you know that's the vernacular the girls would use? Rutgers
is some sort of college, perhaps they are edjumacated?
R H Draney
>
>A receiver of a message is assumed to know what is appropriate for him
>to use, and in what circumstances. Let the buyer beware! And the
>originator should know his audience.
>
>As we grow up, we all learn the circumstances in which certain language
>is inappropriate. At 65 years of age, Imus, a professional fund-raiser
>and communicator, had a major lapse. If he hasn't learned by now, he
>never will learn.
So let's give Michael Richards seven more years before we get on his case....r
--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"
Tony Cooper
Where do you think basketball players - white, black, male, female -
pick up enough skills to get a scholarship to a Division I-A school?
In the library? The laboratory?
No way. On the public courts, in driveways where there's a hoop on
the garage, and in the streets where they learn to handle a ball. The
home of trash-talk. The players know every word, good or bad, racial
or innocuous, that describes any person. There's no reason to suppose
that a scholar doesn't have street-smarts, and every reason to suppose
that an athlete does.
Donna Richoux
I don't think anyone has given a transcript of the April 4 dialog. It is
here, with some explanatory notes:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200704040011
Tony Cooper
<ozzie...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
Yeah, right. The newspapers of America are going to add a "It Pays To
Increase Your Wordpower" column with multiple choice definitions of
rap and hip-hop music terms:
Bitch
a) To complain, carp, or protest
b) A female dog
c) Any female except your mother
Ho
a) Something Conestoga wagon drivers shouted
b) A Hawaiian singer
c) Any female except your mother
Bonus question: Can you say "I bitch-slapped my ho to keep her in
line"?
Answers: C, C, and only if you need a rhyme for a line that ends in
"fine" and it's not a song about your mother.
The Usual Suspect
> t...@euronet.nl had it ...
>
> > Jone <J...@doe.com> wrote:
>
> > > So 'nappy' doesn't sound like a bad word. So what's offensive in
> > > this case? Calling black players in the team 'hos'?
>
> > "The Usual Suspect" went overboard in trying to define the literal
> > definition of "nappy". "Nappy," "nap," "nappyhead" and "naphead" have
> > been insults within the black community for a long time, along the lines
> > of ugly, backwards, and disgusting.
>
term to a British person who is unfamiliar with the term. It's always
easy to see how it "naps" becomes a deragotory term when used by a
known racist, and it's not going overboard to give an objective,
uncharged explanation.
I disagree.
The Usual Suspect
Give it up, Tony, you aren't going to ever convince me, or millions of
others that you, or any other white person has the right to disparage
young Black women who were making the greatest achievement in decades
of Rutgers University sports (and I mean ALL sports) history!
Especially by using racially offensive language. The miserable puke
has finally taken a consequence, and I hope that he has to suffer
more. The miserable racist puke can take his dried up corpse and fly
into oblivion, now.
The Usual Suspect
> On 11 Apr 2007 23:36:39 -0700, "The Usual Suspect"
>
>
>
>
>
It's always been amazing how racists back down and try to whine about
how they're only "shock jocks" or "joking" or attack with "well you
people do it, why can't I?". "Deliberately shocking" people has
legal, social, and other limits. We have learned never to trust these
"Shock Idiots" to regulate their own behavior and conduct, so, at
times, they need to have their butts provided a solid kick.
The Usual Suspect
> "Ray O'Hara" <r...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:RZ-dnQce4vcNToDb...@comcast.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >news:n6cr13h031rblbf57...@4ax.com...
> >> On 11 Apr 2007 20:52:00 -0700, "The Usual Suspect"
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
He called them "nappy headed hos". I call Don Imus a miserable puke.
The Usual Suspect
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:48:57 GMT, "Pat Durkin" <durk...@sbc.com>
Tony, we would boo Chris Rock off the stage. You don't seem to be
around many Black experiences.
The Usual Suspect
Well, have a nice day, then. The world ain't fair, and a White guy is
finding that out. Wow.
Sara Lorimer
> Give it up, Tony, you aren't going to ever convince me, or millions of
> others that you, or any other white person has the right to disparage
> young Black women who were making the greatest achievement in decades
> of Rutgers University sports (and I mean ALL sports) history!
The "right"? Tony's in the US and he most certainly has that right,
nestled right next to his right to shout "Theater!" in a crowded fire.
--
SML
Armond Perretta
>
> I've listened to Imus, and what I hear is a person that deliberately
> shocks people, but deliberately shocks across the board and includes
> all races and subgroups. He does not appear to me to be a person who
> feels that one race is superior to another race.
If I understand you, Coop, it's fine to insult everyone all the time, but
getting particular is, well, nasty.
--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare
Grrr
> No way. On the public courts, in driveways where there's a hoop on
> the garage, and in the streets where they learn to handle a ball. The
> home of trash-talk. The players know every word, good or bad, racial
> or innocuous, that describes any person. There's no reason to suppose
> that a scholar doesn't have street-smarts, and every reason to suppose
> that an athlete does.
Sure, the players *know* the trash-talk, but do they *use* the trash-talk?
As Donna points out, Imus was the only trash-talker in the room:
IMUS: That's some rough girls from Rutgers. Man, they got tattoos and --
McGUIRK: Some hard-core hos.
IMUS: That's some nappy-headed hos there. I'm gonna tell you that now, man, that's some -- woo.
And the girls from Tennessee, they all look cute, you know, so, like -- kinda like -- I don't know.
Tony Cooper
<ludmil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Tony, we would boo Chris Rock off the stage. You don't seem to be
>around many Black experiences.
Who is this "we"? I've never seen an audience boo a black performer
who used racially offensive terms. I haven't been to the Apollo, but
the seats seem filled mostly with black paying audience members
laughing their asses off.
Pat Durkin
"Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1hwh61g.1d3emv049x9q6N%tr...@euronet.nl...
recalled. But the reflexivity is clear. The further comments about the
"rough" Rutgers women and the "cute" Tennessee women emphasizes the
sexism of the comments. As if the comparison to the men's team and the
Grizzlies wasn't bad enough.
Pat Durkin
"R H Draney" <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:evluq...@drn.newsguy.com...
> Pat Durkin filted:
>>
>>A receiver of a message is assumed to know what is appropriate for him
>>to use, and in what circumstances. Let the buyer beware! And the
>>originator should know his audience.
>>
>>As we grow up, we all learn the circumstances in which certain
>>language
>>is inappropriate. At 65 years of age, Imus, a professional
>>fund-raiser
>>and communicator, had a major lapse. If he hasn't learned by now, he
>>never will learn.
>
> So let's give Michael Richards seven more years before we get on his
> case....r
You mean we haven't nipped that in the bud? The man went absolutely
ape.
Tony Cooper
<ludmil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I'm not trying to convince you that Imus has the right to disparage
young black women, but I am stating that your outrage is misplaced.
Rather than worry about one old white guy who stepped over a faintly
drawn line, direct your outrage to the industry that promotes this -
and worse - language by writing, performing, and distributing hip-hop
and rap music.
It's these people, not the Don Imus's of the world, who have made the
language of racial and sexual abuse a popular commodity. Ludicrous
does more damage to the self-esteem of young black women every day
than a hundred Imus's will in a lifetime. Pre-teens idolize the guy
(and others like him) and emulate his every word.
If your answer is that Ludicrous has a right to say and do what he
wants because the public accepts it, then you have to say that Imus
has the same right. It's not the general public that's breaking
Imus's balls.
The little sisters of the Rutgers girls are listening to this:
Holidae In (that's Holiday Inn)
by Chingy, From the album “Jackpot”
Ma showed up like “what's the hold up?”
Man know what get them wraps and roll up
I took a chick in the bathroom seeing what's poppin
You know what's on my mind, shirts off and panties dropping
Niggaz knocking on the door drunk, and silly
The girl said “can I be in yo video” I'm like “yeah!”, “oh really?”
Now she naked strip teasing, me I'm just cheesing
She gave me a reason to be a damn heathen
Handled that, told ol' G, bring tha camera
Then I thought about, no footage while I ram her
Walked out the bathroom smiling, cats still whiling
Sharing the next room wit some girls lookin like they from an island
Pat Durkin
<Grrr> wrote in message news:131t4vn...@corp.supernews.com...
> Tony Cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> No way. On the public courts, in driveways where there's a hoop on
>> the garage, and in the streets where they learn to handle a ball.
>> The
>> home of trash-talk. The players know every word, good or bad, racial
>> or innocuous, that describes any person. There's no reason to
>> suppose
>> that a scholar doesn't have street-smarts, and every reason to
>> suppose
>> that an athlete does.
>
> Sure, the players *know* the trash-talk, but do they *use* the
> trash-talk?
> As Donna points out, Imus was the only trash-talker in the room:
May I correct you? Imus was _not_ the olney trash-talker in the room.
McGuirk helped out. If a trash-talker gets support and feedback the
trash gets stronger and more frequent. Who is the kiss-ass there? Huh?
And Imus just picked up the ball and ran off his mouth with it.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Thanks, Donna. The lead-in for Imus was a bit more extensive than I
>recalled. But the reflexivity is clear. The further comments about the
>"rough" Rutgers women and the "cute" Tennessee women emphasizes the
>sexism of the comments.
Comparing the appearances of two female basketball teams is sexism?
Before that becomes a racist comparisons, the racial make-up of both
teams is about the same.
Tony Cooper
<newsgro...@REMOVEbigfoot.com> wrote:
>Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>> I've listened to Imus, and what I hear is a person that deliberately
>> shocks people, but deliberately shocks across the board and includes
>> all races and subgroups. He does not appear to me to be a person who
>> feels that one race is superior to another race.
>
>If I understand you, Coop, it's fine to insult everyone all the time, but
>getting particular is, well, nasty.
I dunno about "fine", but dialing in Imus or Stern or Limbaugh or any
other radio personality is a choice thing. Imus gets far more personal
than his comment about the Rutger's basketball team. I don't think
he's ever singled out black people any more or less than non-black
people. Politicians are his usual target.
Tony Cooper
>Tony Cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> No way. On the public courts, in driveways where there's a hoop on
>> the garage, and in the streets where they learn to handle a ball. The
>> home of trash-talk. The players know every word, good or bad, racial
>> or innocuous, that describes any person. There's no reason to suppose
>> that a scholar doesn't have street-smarts, and every reason to suppose
>> that an athlete does.
>
>Sure, the players *know* the trash-talk, but do they *use* the trash-talk?
>As Donna points out, Imus was the only trash-talker in the room:
Are you kidding? McGuirk's and Rosenberg's comments were worse. It's
Imus's show, though, and he's responsible for what McGuirk and
Rosenberg say.
Me, I'm just a old white guy, but I think that bringing in "Jigaboos"
is trashy. Maybe I'm out-of-date, though. Is "jigaboo" in and "nappy
ho" out?
It wasn't Imus that made the comments about the Williams sisters. It
was Rosenberg when he said that they were more likely to make the
cover of National Geographic than Sports Illustrated.
I'm not sure "The Usual Suspect" actually listens to Imus.
The Usual Suspect
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 16:29:53 +0100, "John Dean"
>
> <john-d...@fraglineone.net> wrote:
> >So I guess a lot depends on how you intend it. I know nothing of Mr Imus -
> >was he intending to be pleasant to the ladies in question?
>
> He's been described here as a "shock jock" ("jock" coming from "disk
> jockey, or radio personality), and that's pretty much what he does.
> He's intelligent, politically aware, cutting-edge, and rude to many.
> He's Jon Stewart with an edge, Stephen Colbert without the smooth
> delivery, and Howard Stern without an obsession with tits or a massive
> ego.
>
> He has a radio talk show that is (now, was) simulcast on TV whereon he
> just rambles as the mood strikes him. Sometimes boringly, sometimes
> pointlessly, and sometimes very, very entertainingly.
> In direct answer to your question, he was being neither kind nor
> cruel. He was attempting to describe their scrappiness and court
> attitude. Unfortunately, he chose the vernacular that the girls
> themselves would use, and that's not permissible.
>
>
> Tony Cooper
> Orlando, FL
Quit lying to the Brits. They have their own racial disparities and
problems. Don Imus meant what he said in the most derogatory and
vicious way. That is what "Shock Jocks" do!
Donna Richoux
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 20:17:59 -0000, Grrr wrote:
>
> >
> >Sure, the players *know* the trash-talk, but do they *use* the trash-talk?
> >As Donna points out,
Not me. I just gave a URL to the transcript.
>>Imus was the only trash-talker in the room:
>
> Are you kidding? McGuirk's and Rosenberg's comments were worse. It's
> Imus's show, though, and he's responsible for what McGuirk and
> Rosenberg say.
>
> Me, I'm just a old white guy, but I think that bringing in "Jigaboos"
> is trashy. Maybe I'm out-of-date, though. Is "jigaboo" in and "nappy
> ho" out?
These things don't come with point values attached. On an essential
level, I'd guess that "jigaboo" is more insulting than "nappy," but
making an allusion to a satirical Spike Lee movie (with teams "The
Jigaboos" and "The Wannabees" as the website explained), makes it seem
like a safer move.
tinwhistler
> Well, have a nice day, then. The world ain't fair, and a White guy is
> finding that out. Wow.
The other shoe: CBS just axed Imus from radio, leaving him without an
MSM whistle.
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
Tony Cooper
<ludmil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Give it up, Tony, you aren't going to ever convince me, or millions of
>others that you, or any other white person has the right to disparage
>young Black women who were making the greatest achievement in decades
>of Rutgers University sports (and I mean ALL sports) history!
Imus has a listening audience of about 2.5 million a week. He's not
accessible in many of the major markets. Most of his listeners are in
the New York/Pennsylvania/DC area. In most states where he is heard,
he has one outlet in the whole state. California, for example. In
Illinois, he's in downstate Peoria, but not in Chicago. In Florida,
Tampa but not Orlando, Miami or Jacksonville. (I pick him up on a
station in St Cloud)
Of the 2.5 million, what's your guess about the black percentage of
listeners? My guess is that he's "Don who?" in that demographic.
Also, given the coverage of the Woman's NCAA basketball finals, it's
"Rutgers who?". Rutgers, in sports, is best known for their 37 game
losing streak. Right up there with Prarie View A&M.
Don't get me wrong, here. I agree that Imus's comment was totally
inappropriate and that no white man - or black man - should disparage
young black women. I just wish you'd save your outrage for the source
of more, and more serious, disparagement: the black music industry
and the black comics.
I'm just a little nonplussed at the sudden outrage at one person's
comment - albeit totally inappropriate - when we have a generation of
young black people rapping along with the likes of Ludicrous. And,
presumably, with the approval of their parents. At least you can turn
off Imus. I have listen to lyrics containing words like "Niggas" and
"Ho's" and disrespect for police at about every third stoplight. Imus
disparaged one basketball team, and Ludicrous makes a Glock essential
and drive-by shootings glamorous.
Skitt
> Don't get me wrong, here. I agree that Imus's comment was totally
> inappropriate and that no white man - or black man - should disparage
> young black women. I just wish you'd save your outrage for the source
> of more, and more serious, disparagement: the black music industry
> and the black comics.
>
> I'm just a little nonplussed at the sudden outrage at one person's
> comment - albeit totally inappropriate - when we have a generation of
> young black people rapping along with the likes of Ludicrous.
That's "Ludacris".
> And,
> presumably, with the approval of their parents. At least you can turn
> off Imus. I have listen to lyrics containing words like "Niggas" and
> "Ho's" and disrespect for police at about every third stoplight. Imus
> disparaged one basketball team, and Ludicrous makes a Glock essential
> and drive-by shootings glamorous.
Well, if ever there were some to whom the N-word should apply, it'd be those
rappers. I'm lucky in that I understand only about 5% of what they say, not
that I hear them very often, but nowadays it is impossible to totally avoid
hearing them.
--
Skitt
R H Draney
>
>Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>> I'm just a little nonplussed at the sudden outrage at one person's
>> comment - albeit totally inappropriate - when we have a generation of
>> young black people rapping along with the likes of Ludicrous.
>
>That's "Ludacris".
Which is ludicrous....r
--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"
Percival P. Cassidy
>> How do you handle these things? You meet a guy who is a member of the
>> group "Nappy Headz", ask him if he's a nappy head, and find that you
>> are being racist and a "miserable puke".
> [snip]
> Don't you think if the media did a better job of alerting us to the
> offensiveness of "nappy" and "nappy-headed," drawing on Donna's
> excellent posting, the problem would be less likely to arise?
A year or two back a newspaper article reported that a teacher was being
criticized severely -- perhaps even being disciplined -- for using a
book with a title something like "Julie's Nappy Hair." No matter that
the author was Afro-American and that the message of the book was that
"nappy" hair (as some called it) could still be beautiful.
Perce
Robert Lieblich
That's "Ludacris." Anyway, he's now using his "real" name, Chris
Bridges, much of the time and making a bid for respectability.
Like it or not, we're all well aware that members of a group may use
terms among themselves that those outside the group cannot use.
"Nigger" is the most obvious example, and Blacks are perhaps the most
obvious group, but others do it. Gays use "queer" but deny it to
others. For all I know, some American Indians use "Redskins" among
themselves even as they excoriate a certain football team for having
it as a nickname. "Ho" is in that clase.
Here's an experiment for you, Tony: Walk into a predominantly Black
neighborhood in Orlando, approach a group of young men, and say "How
you niggaz doin'?" Be sure to update your will first.
I'm not saying that this is how the world should be, but that's how it
is. And "Well, you folks use it among yourselves" is no protection.
As for Imus, it's possible that he thought, in some deep recess of his
warped mind, that he was complimenting the Rutgers players. I've
listened to the audio and read the transcript several times each (it's
not as if you can follow the news and not trip over Imus everywhere),
and I wouldn't discount that. I suspect that even now he hasn't
completely figured out where he went astray. I don't recall ever
listening to his show, so I don't know his track record beyond what
I've read of it -- read sporadically over the years and quite a bit
over the last week. But I know what I heard, and I didn't hear the
pure poison that so many people claim to have heard in his remarks.
Unfortunately for Imus, my reaction isn't what matters. Ask The Usual
Suspect.
Imus is free under American law to insult the Rutgers women's
basketball team in any way he wishes. But he has to live with the
consequencess. I think he was blind-sided by the extent of the
reaction, but it wasn't any surprise to me. The hypocrisy of the
likes of Hymietown Jackson and Tawana Brawley Sharpton was also no
surprise. But Imus was in the barrel this time, and he got a full
beating. One of the ironies (if I may use that word in this company)
of this case is that Imus will probably suffer less of an economic
loss than CBS. He undoubtely has millions in the bank, and CBS has
twenty hours of highly profitable radio a week to replace. Some of
his charities, like the camp in New Mexico, may also suffer, and his
sponsors lose a large, loyal audience. Seems to me that no one
benefits economically from his firing. But principle has been upheld.
As for the Rutgers team, it's a shame they had to attract the
limelight in this fashion, but I'll bet they come out the better for
it. I paid some attention to their run at the NCAA title (network TV
is really crappy these days, no?), and I was impressed with them as
athletes and teammates. I was even more impressed when some of the
personal stories came out, and with the class they displayed in
reaction to Imus. Instead of being a footnote to Tennessee's seventh
NCAA women's title, they are now figures in history. You could do
worse.
Finally, I think much too big a deal was made out of this. It says a
lot both about our country's sense of proportion and about our still
unhealed scars of racism.
Next: The Duke lacrosse team.
--
Bob Lieblich
Quite firmly ambivalent
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> On 11 Apr 2007 23:36:39 -0700, "The Usual Suspect"
>
>
>
> <ludmillia...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> --On the part of whom? For Imus, it was a well documented indication of character. He can't hide from his well documented past.
>
> >> Orlando, FL- Hide quoted text -
>
>
> >I've watched Imus on his MSNBC simulcast many times and have listened
> >to his radio show on and off for ages. I have had a clear and well
> >educated understanding that Imus has always been an immature racist,
> >since the miserable puke was the first so-called "shock jock". He
> >said equally disgusting and racist things about Venus and Serena
> >Williams at the peak of their accomplishments, and about Jews,
> >Catholics and others. He's been exposed by a well qualified authors
> >for years.
>
> >My CV is really none of your business, but I hope that the other
> >posters get my outrage and response to your trolling.
>
> I'm not trolling. I'm asking straight questions. Too many people
> make decisions based on incidents that they've read reports about
> without any knowledge of the genre involved. My questions were
> directed to discovering if you were one of these people.
>
> shocks people, but deliberately shocks across the board and includes
> all races and subgroups. He does not appear to me to be a person who
> feels that one race is superior to another race.
>
> personalities and comedians who have popularized "ho" as an acceptable
> and usual description of women? The word has been placed out there to
> be used, but without the warning that it can only be used certain
> people.
Come on. The warning that people can say things about their own group
that they won't let others say is a commonplace. You said elsewhere
that you don't buy it, but I think it's a familiar social expectation.
> Your use of "trolling" is amusing. Reverend Something (it wasn't
> Sharpton) said in an interview that I heard on the radio that the
> Rutgers girls were "scarred for life" by Imus's comment. I really do
> have a problem with the idea that an 18 year old black girl from New
> Jersey is going to be scarred emotionally because she was referred to
> as a "ho".
I'm with you there.
> A girl who probably has umpteen CDs with someone shouting
> "ho" over and over again between uses of other denigrating and racist
> terms. A girls that pays money to buy a CD by a performer who insults
> her and her race. Talk about trolling.
But not there. You might be stereotyping a tiny bit. I don't think
all young black people, even tattooed young black athletes from
Newark, like the misogynist and internalized-racist kind of rap or the
ditto kind of comedy, even though some certainly do.
--
Jerry Friedman
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
wrote:
Well, winning the first college football game has to count for
something. (For our British friends, that's American football.)
--
Jerry Friedman thinks Rutgers probably beat Princeton by cheating.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> On Apr 11, 8:33 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <r...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > "Jone" <J...@doe.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:461d9db7$0$30758$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
>
> > > m-w.com tells me what 'ho' means. But what's 'nappy'? None of
> > > the meaning from m-w.com seem to fit.
>
> > Basically it means close to the head.. It rfers to the tight to the head
> > curly hair of African people.
> > It sounds worse than what it means.
>
> As an expert on naps, having been born with them, it means Black Hair
> in its natural, unrelaxed state: The "Afro" if you prefer. My hair
> is partly straight, so my naps look more like a Jheri Curl from the
> 70's.
>
> Depending on the thickness and amount of curl to the hair, some naps
> are really nappy. The curls are close together that the hair feels
> like it has a nap, like fabric. The famous U.S. Army "Buffalo
> Soldiers" were called that by the Indians because they compared their
> hair to the Buffalo pelt.
>
> Unkempt, hair is also referred to as "Naps". i.e. "You need to do
> something about those Naps!"
That's the meaning I know.
--
Jerry Friedman
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
John Dean
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 16:29:53 +0100, "John Dean"
> <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:
>
>> So I guess a lot depends on how you intend it. I know nothing of Mr
>> Imus - was he intending to be pleasant to the ladies in question?
>
> He's been described here as a "shock jock" ("jock" coming from "disk
> jockey, or radio personality), and that's pretty much what he does.
> He's intelligent, politically aware, cutting-edge, and rude to many.
> He's Jon Stewart with an edge, Stephen Colbert without the smooth
> delivery, and Howard Stern without an obsession with tits or a massive
> ego.
>
> He has a radio talk show that is (now, was) simulcast on TV whereon he
> just rambles as the mood strikes him. Sometimes boringly, sometimes
> pointlessly, and sometimes very, very entertainingly.
>
> In direct answer to your question, he was being neither kind nor
> cruel. He was attempting to describe their scrappiness and court
> attitude. Unfortunately, he chose the vernacular that the girls
> themselves would use, and that's not permissible.
They call themselves nappy-headed hos? Gee, that seems unfair on him.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Robert Bannister
> tr...@euronet.nl had it ...
>
>>Jone <Jo...@doe.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>So 'nappy' doesn't sound like a bad word. So what's offensive in
>>>this case? Calling black players in the team 'hos'?
>>
>>"The Usual Suspect" went overboard in trying to define the literal
>>definition of "nappy". "Nappy," "nap," "nappyhead" and "naphead" have
>>been insults within the black community for a long time, along the lines
>>of ugly, backwards, and disgusting.
>
>
> FWIW I'm not familiar with this use in the UK. It's possible I've
> not been in the circles where it would be used, but I had never heard
> it before now.
>
I don't see how we could use it in BrE: the immediate response is to
think of nappies (AmE diapers). We do use "nap" for carpets, cloth (and
a card game), but out of context, the first thought is babies' bottoms.
--
Rob Bannister
Maria
> The Usual Suspect wrote:
> I'm not trolling. I'm asking straight questions. Too many people
> make decisions based on incidents that they've read reports about
> without any knowledge of the genre involved. My questions were
> directed to discovering if you were one of these people.
>
> I've listened to Imus, and what I hear is a person that deliberately
> shocks people, but deliberately shocks across the board and includes
> all races and subgroups. He does not appear to me to be a person who
> feels that one race is superior to another race.
I agree. I've listened to Imus for 10-15 years, and have been watching
the MSNBC simulcast most weekday mornings since I retired about 3.5
years ago. (I saw the incident in question as it happened, live.)
Several people have referred to him as a "shock jock." To me, that terms
applies more to Howard Stern and Opie & Anthony than it does to Don
Imus. He does say some things, though, that create a big stir. And some
of what is said on the show by Imus and his crew is definitely rude and
in bad taste -- but not nearly as much or as often as some would say.
He has hosted some of the best political interviews I've seen. And he
runs the Imus Ranch for Kids with Cancer. The boys and girls who go
there are helped immensely, in spirit if not in other ways, too, and the
expenses of their entire stay (10 days) are footed by the ranch. The
kids are of whatever race they are -- there's not a drop of racial
discrimination there.
Imus's involvement in other charitable activities is no secret. His
guest list on his radio/TV show is not limited to any one political
stance, any one sex or sexual preference, any one race, any one
religion. The insults (which are not necessarily in bad taste) that come
out of his mouth -- perhaps too frequently -- are also not aimed at any
one political stance, any one sex or sexual preference, any once race,
any one religion. He is an Equal Opportunity Insulter.
>
> If you want to be outraged, why not be outraged at the black music
> personalities and comedians who have popularized "ho" as an acceptable
> and usual description of women? The word has been placed out there to
> be used, but without the warning that it can only be used certain
> people.
Yes. And it isn't just the language that's offensive. It's the whole
attitude that those "singers" and "comedians"* have towards women. They
convey their ugly attitude to impressionable young people. Does anyone
think that's just fine and dandy?
(*) I really don't want to dignify them as singers and comedians. They
are trash-talkers.
>
> Your use of "trolling" is amusing. Reverend Something (it wasn't
> Sharpton) said in an interview that I heard on the radio that the
> Rutgers girls were "scarred for life" by Imus's comment. I really do
> have a problem with the idea that an 18 year old black girl from New
> Jersey is going to be scarred emotionally because she was referred to
> as a "ho". A girl who probably has umpteen CDs with someone shouting
> "ho" over and over again between uses of other denigrating and racist
> terms. A girls that pays money to buy a CD by a performer who insults
> her and her race. Talk about trolling.
>
>> He's been exposed by a well qualified authors
>> for years.
>
> Exposed? You mean some "well qualified" person wrote a book that says
> that Imus deliberately shocks people by what he says? Hell, you don't
> need to buy a book to know that. Just listen to the radio.
Of course, no one can listen to him now. I've already written to MSNBC,
and have told them I will not watch that station again. My next
letters/emails will go to CBS Radio and to the sponsors who bailed. What
really irritated me about the TV and radio people is their insistence
that the sponsors' money had nothing to do with the firings. Yeah,
right. Now pull the other one.
For all the good Imus has done throughout the years, the call we heard
the most these past several days was to fire him, with no chances given
to clean up his act. The promised 2-week suspension during which his
fate would be reviewed is now a broken promise. And the TV and radio
stations fired him just as a major charity drive was planned/underway.
Do you suppose MSNBC and CBS Radio will pick up the slack and provide
the charity dollars?
The hypocrisy in this entire mess in incredible.
By the way, which phrases, words, and actions do you (the reader) want
outlawed? How much political correctness do you want to become law? Stay
tuned, but watch you what you say and be careful what you wish for.
Waiting for the outrage, but saying what I think,
Maria
Maria
> I don't know if too much was made of this, but I am certain the
> problem doesn't reside solely in Imus's remarks. There is tendency to
> use bad taste as a cheap sell. You will always attract an audience
> with bad taste, and youthful audiences are easy marks. The youthful
> market is prized by advertisers; they are the ones supporting this
> bad taste. What Imus showed is that if the sponsors don't like what
> you're saying (for whatever reason), then you're history.
>
> The attraction of bad taste usually diminishes with age and
> sophistication, but we old-farts don't hold great interest for
> marketers. So, I don't see where there will be any noticeable move to
> "good taste."
>
> Did I simplify this too much with blaming it on bad taste? Maybe yes,
> but maybe not. Not everything racial is racist.
Your last sentence is one I wish I'd used in my post on this matter.
One thing: Bad taste can be funny, not that is always is. (And I didn't
find the "nappy-headed hos"* remark funny. I gasped, but then considered
the source and the ramifications of limiting free speech too much.)
*Today, I saw it spelled as "hoes."
Comments? In English usage...
--
Tony Cooper
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> If you want to be outraged, why not be outraged at the black music
>> personalities and comedians who have popularized "ho" as an acceptable
>> and usual description of women? The word has been placed out there to
>> be used, but without the warning that it can only be used certain
>> people.
>
>Come on. The warning that people can say things about their own group
>that they won't let others say is a commonplace. You said elsewhere
>that you don't buy it, but I think it's a familiar social expectation.
I'm well aware of that. I don't buy it, but I know it. What bothers
is the acceptance. "Ho" and "bitch" aren't just words that black
entertainers use sometimes; they are words that are so commonplace in
public usage that no one seems to think about what they mean. Where's
the anger about that? The outrage?
Every once in a while some black columnist will write a piece decrying
the usage of "ho" and "bitch" and "nigga", but you get the feeling
that they're just treading water until some really good writer's hook
surfaces like "bright and clean" or "nappy ho's".
What about the next generation? If we want the races to be closer
together, can we continue to let language separate them? Can you
expect those 10 year-olds in the playground to understand that the
black kids can call the girls "ho" and "bitch" and "nigga", but the
white kids can't?
That social expectation that you refer to above becomes an expectation
that we *can't* be equal as long as there's a "I can, you can't"
divide in communications. "The Usual Suspect" isn't saying that no
one should call the Rutgers girls "nappy ho's". He isn't saying that
black people can't call the Rutgers girls "nappy ho's". He's saying
that a *white* man can't call the Rutgers girls "nappy ho's". He's
perpetuating the divide that, presumably, he's against.
>> Your use of "trolling" is amusing. Reverend Something (it wasn't
>> Sharpton) said in an interview that I heard on the radio that the
>> Rutgers girls were "scarred for life" by Imus's comment. I really do
>> have a problem with the idea that an 18 year old black girl from New
>> Jersey is going to be scarred emotionally because she was referred to
>> as a "ho".
>
>I'm with you there.
>
>> A girl who probably has umpteen CDs with someone shouting
>> "ho" over and over again between uses of other denigrating and racist
>> terms. A girls that pays money to buy a CD by a performer who insults
>> her and her race. Talk about trolling.
>
>But not there. You might be stereotyping a tiny bit. I don't think
>all young black people, even tattooed young black athletes from
>Newark, like the misogynist and internalized-racist kind of rap or the
>ditto kind of comedy, even though some certainly do.
Stereotype or no, I sincerely doubt if any of the Rutgers female
basketball players and Bob Lieblich will be exchanging CDs.
Tony Cooper
<r_s_li...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Imus is free under American law to insult the Rutgers women's
>basketball team in any way he wishes. But he has to live with the
>consequencess. I think he was blind-sided by the extent of the
>reaction, but it wasn't any surprise to me. The hypocrisy of the
>likes of Hymietown Jackson and Tawana Brawley Sharpton was also no
>surprise.
Has Andrew Young commented on it yet?
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> Don't get me wrong, here. I agree that Imus's comment was totally
>> inappropriate and that no white man - or black man - should disparage
>> young black women. I just wish you'd save your outrage for the source
>> of more, and more serious, disparagement: the black music industry
>> and the black comics.
>>
>> I'm just a little nonplussed at the sudden outrage at one person's
>> comment - albeit totally inappropriate - when we have a generation of
>> young black people rapping along with the likes of Ludicrous.
>
>That's "Ludacris".
>
One of the two of us can't spell.
Will someone settle this, please? Is it "ho's" or "hos"? The
apostrophe doesn't make any sense at all, but it sure makes it look
better. "Hos" looks like a typo.
Skitt
> "Skitt" wrote:
>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> Don't get me wrong, here. I agree that Imus's comment was totally
>>> inappropriate and that no white man - or black man - should
>>> disparage young black women. I just wish you'd save your outrage
>>> for the source of more, and more serious, disparagement: the black
>>> music industry and the black comics.
>>>
>>> I'm just a little nonplussed at the sudden outrage at one person's
>>> comment - albeit totally inappropriate - when we have a generation
>>> of young black people rapping along with the likes of Ludicrous.
>>
>> That's "Ludacris".
>
> One of the two of us can't spell.
Oh, it ain't that a tall. It's just that the handle is Ludacris, and that
is ludicrous.
> Will someone settle this, please? Is it "ho's" or "hos"? The
> apostrophe doesn't make any sense at all, but it sure makes it look
> better. "Hos" looks like a typo.
Would you believe that it is in M-W Online?
Main Entry: 2ho
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural hos or hoes
Etymology: alteration of whore
slang : WHORE 1
I do agree that "hos" looks funny, and "hoes" is something else altogether.
--
Skitt
no rapper he
John Holmes
>
> The Nappy Headz perform lyrics like:
>
> Hay Hay, i might ride dubs, i might have g's
> But fuck that nigga i wanna spend yo cheese
> Get on yo knees thats the way its gonna be
> Make you bleed slow, telly ho bros bros trees like OD's
> Hangin out a half back clownin, this is how we get down in my tow
>
> http://www.songme.com/n/nappy_headz/various_songs/robbery.html
>
> So maybe better not to mention it.
>
> On the other hand, one of their tracks is apparently called "I'm
> Nappy" so what do I know?
>
> Seems to be one of those cases where it isn't just what you say, it's
> who says it and what they intend.
This guy didn't seem to have a problem with being called Nappy:
http://www.classicjazzguitar.com/images/lamare/lamare_page.htm
In his case, it might be short for Napoleon, though I can't find
confirmation of that anywhere.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
Arcadian Rises
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:21:01 GMT, the Omrud <usenet.om...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >t...@euronet.nl had it ...
>
> >> > So 'nappy' doesn't sound like a bad word. So what's offensive in
> >> > this case? Calling black players in the team 'hos'?
>
> >> "The Usual Suspect" went overboard in trying to define the literal
> >> definition of "nappy". "Nappy," "nap," "nappyhead" and "naphead" have
> >> been insults within the black community for a long time, along the lines
> >> of ugly, backwards, and disgusting.
>
> >FWIW I'm not familiar with this use in the UK. It's possible I've
> >not been in the circles where it would be used, but I had never heard
> >it before now.
>
> with it, but I don't think I've seen or heard the word in use for 30
> or 40 years.
It's long before my time in the US, so I should be forgiven for not
knowing it either.
It's frightening that I should look up the dictionary to understand
why a journalist lost his job. Of course, the dictionary didn't help.
>
> However, I don't listen to "black" music...hip-hop, rap, the like.
> It's quite possible that the word has emerged in current use through
> that venue. I note there's a hip-hop group called "Nappy Roots" and
> another called "Nappy Headz".
>
> I don't know if the word is used in lyrics or not. The "lyrics" I
> hear from the car next to me at the stoplight are obscured by the
> booming bass and the rattle of doors and car body parts.
>
> Donna says the term is "ugly, backwards, and disgusting". How are
> *we* to know, though? The term is promoted by black people in "music"
> performed by black people and aimed at the black market. How are
> people unfamiliar with the early connotations of the word to know that
> it's a word that "they" can use but "we" can't?
We'd better learn all those dangerous words before we lose our jobs or
our freedom for uttering them.
>
> How do you handle these things? You meet a guy who is a member of the
> group "Nappy Headz", ask him if he's a nappy head, and find that you
> are being racist and a "miserable puke".
>
v13...@gmail.com
<snip>
> For all the good Imus has done throughout the years, the call we heard
> the most these past several days was to fire him, with no chances given
> to clean up his act. The promised 2-week suspension during which his
> fate would be reviewed is now a broken promise. And the TV and radio
> stations fired him just as a major charity drive was planned/underway.
> Do you suppose MSNBC and CBS Radio will pick up the slack and provide
> the charity dollars?
> The hypocrisy in this entire mess in incredible.
> By the way, which phrases, words, and actions do you (the reader) want
> outlawed? How much political correctness do you want to become law? Stay
> tuned, but watch you what you say and be careful what you wish for.
> Waiting for the outrage, but saying what I think,
> Maria
Personally, I wonder why freedom of speech issues haven't been
discussed at all. Something mysterious is going with our collective
subconscious. I have this idea; I know it is a stretch. Is the firing
of Imus really about the Vietnam war experience and the Iraq war
experience. There is how our society handled Vietnam, and there is how
our society is handling Iraq. The two are very different. Duirng
Vietnam people had strong, direct, and loud discussion that were on
the line, not between the lines, and there wasn't much silent
treatment.
As a society we don't want to discuss our future. Imus was getting to
close to discussing things we don't want to discuss. Who here wants to
discuss the American future?
Anybody feel comfortable with my take?
1. Open bourders are a serious possiblity. Rome opened its boarders,
but this didn't stop a population collapse in the Western Roman Empire
region. If we open the boards we might have 1,000,000,000 people in
American by 2040; it that happens we might have 150,000,000 by 2080.
2. There probably is no macroeconomic business plan to run the
cashflows though the USA that will allow the USA to pay-off its
external public and corporate debts. Personal bankrupcies are at
record levels.
3. The USA put some 7 AC battlegroups near the Persian Gulf recently,
for publically expressed reasons and secrete reasons too. What were
the secrete reasons? Is this related to trade issues?
I could go on. The prospects for defeat are there. The prospects for
deep reversals of our ability to sustain our material lifestyle are
there. It is getting tighter.
John Freck
John Freck
Fred
"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:dn3t131v6js23lsum...@4ax.com...
> On 12 Apr 2007 12:30:24 -0700, "The Usual Suspect"
>
>>On Apr 12, 6:42 am, Tony Cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:21:01 GMT, the Omrud <usenet.om...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >t...@euronet.nl had it ...
>>> >> Jone <J...@doe.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >> > So 'nappy' doesn't sound like a bad word. So what's offensive in
>>> >> > this case? Calling black players in the team 'hos'?
>>>
>>> >> "The Usual Suspect" went overboard in trying to define the literal
>>> >> definition of "nappy". "Nappy," "nap," "nappyhead" and "naphead" have
>>> >> been insults within the black community for a long time, along the
>>> >> lines
>>> >> of ugly, backwards, and disgusting.
>>>
>>> >FWIW I'm not familiar with this use in the UK. It's possible I've
>>> >not been in the circles where it would be used, but I had never heard
>>> >it before now.
>>>
>>> You're not alone. I knew the word, and the meanings and associations
>>> with it, but I don't think I've seen or heard the word in use for 30
>>> or 40 years.
>>>
>>> It's quite possible that the word has emerged in current use through
>>> that venue. I note there's a hip-hop group called "Nappy Roots" and
>>> another called "Nappy Headz".
>>>
>>> I don't know if the word is used in lyrics or not. The "lyrics" I
>>> hear from the car next to me at the stoplight are obscured by the
>>> booming bass and the rattle of doors and car body parts.
>>>
>>> Donna says the term is "ugly, backwards, and disgusting". How are
>>> *we* to know, though? The term is promoted by black people in "music"
>>> performed by black people and aimed at the black market. How are
>>> people unfamiliar with the early connotations of the word to know that
>>> it's a word that "they" can use but "we" can't?
>>>
>>> group "Nappy Headz", ask him if he's a nappy head, and find that you
>>> are being racist and a "miserable puke".
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Tony Cooper
>>> Orlando, FL
>>
>>others that you, or any other white person has the right to disparage
>>young Black women who were making the greatest achievement in decades
>>of Rutgers University sports (and I mean ALL sports) history!
>>has finally taken a consequence, and I hope that he has to suffer
>>more. The miserable racist puke can take his dried up corpse and fly
>>into oblivion, now.
>
> I'm not trying to convince you that Imus has the right to disparage
> young black women, but I am stating that your outrage is misplaced.
> Rather than worry about one old white guy who stepped over a faintly
> drawn line, direct your outrage to the industry that promotes this -
> and worse - language by writing, performing, and distributing hip-hop
> and rap music.
>
> It's these people, not the Don Imus's of the world, who have made the
> language of racial and sexual abuse a popular commodity. Ludicrous
> does more damage to the self-esteem of young black women every day
> than a hundred Imus's will in a lifetime. Pre-teens idolize the guy
> (and others like him) and emulate his every word.
>
> If your answer is that Ludicrous has a right to say and do what he
> wants because the public accepts it, then you have to say that Imus
> has the same right. It's not the general public that's breaking
> Imus's balls.
>
> The little sisters of the Rutgers girls are listening to this:
>
> Holidae In (that's Holiday Inn)
> by Chingy, From the album "Jackpot"
>
> Ma showed up like "what's the hold up?"
> Man know what get them wraps and roll up
> I took a chick in the bathroom seeing what's poppin
> You know what's on my mind, shirts off and panties dropping
> Niggaz knocking on the door drunk, and silly
> The girl said "can I be in yo video" I'm like "yeah!", "oh really?"
> Now she naked strip teasing, me I'm just cheesing
> She gave me a reason to be a damn heathen
> Handled that, told ol' G, bring tha camera
> Then I thought about, no footage while I ram her
> Walked out the bathroom smiling, cats still whiling
> Sharing the next room wit some girls lookin like they from an island
> --
>
Wouldn't that be "a island"?
Fred
You've answered it yourself. The apostrophe makes no sense at all.
Peter Moylan
> I've listened to Imus, and what I hear is a person that deliberately
> shocks people, but deliberately shocks across the board and includes
> all races and subgroups. He does not appear to me to be a person who
> feels that one race is superior to another race.
I've never heard of Imus, but from this thread and elsewhere I'm getting
a pretty clear picture of what this fuss is about.
We have similar Australian "shock jocks" on Australian radio, and they
disgust me. They aim to appeal to the racists, the misogynists, the
political extremists, and most of all the uneducated and unintelligent.
Every so often I catch one of them while channel surfing. I might listen
in horror for ten minutes or so, but then have to change the station for
the sake of my blood pressure. They're often in legal trouble because of
issues related to libel or violation of anti-vilification laws. One of
them is in trouble at present for allegedly inciting a racist riot. (I
haven't kept track of whether he's been convicted or whether the case is
still pending.) In my own opinion the riot was going to happen anyway
because of the racial tensions in a certain part of Sydney, but his wide
influence probably played a part in ensuring that racists from around
the country were bussed in for a bit of fun bashing the Lebanese. Yes,
protecting free speech is a good idea, even when the speaker is someone
I violently disagree with; but I also agree with whoever it was who said
that your right to free speech ends at the tip of my nose, or something
like that.
The thing that really bothers me is that these people don't lose their
jobs, because the radio stations have an eye to their profits and these
people draw in a huge audience. Having a handful of troublemakers on
radio is a minor point. Having a huge number of people who are willing
to listen to them indicates something really sick in our society. What I'd
really like to see is a situation where the shock jocks lose their jobs
because their audience is too small, but apparently that's too much to
hope for.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet
address could disappear at any time.
Pat Durkin
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 20:22:01 GMT, "Pat Durkin" <dur...@sbc.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Thanks, Donna. The lead-in for Imus was a bit more extensive than I
>>recalled. But the reflexivity is clear. The further comments about
>>the
>>"rough" Rutgers women and the "cute" Tennessee women emphasizes the
>>sexism of the comments.
>
> Comparing the appearances of two female basketball teams is sexism?
>
> Before that becomes a racist comparisons, the racial make-up of both
> teams is about the same.
The fact of his feeling the need to comment on the beauty of either team
in a non-beauty- contest contest is sexist, Tony. Why, in sports, is
such a comment necessary?
What does a commentator of a man's contest comment upon? Height, maybe?
Strength? Accuracy? Aggressiveness? Skill? Speed?
Would a macho man be caught dead saying the male teams were cute or
handsome?
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>This guy didn't seem to have a problem with being called Nappy:
>http://www.classicjazzguitar.com/images/lamare/lamare_page.htm
>
>In his case, it might be short for Napoleon, though I can't find
>confirmation of that anywhere.
The late Napoleon (Nap) Ford was an Orlando City Councilman and a high
school teacher and coach. He was black, but I don't remember anyone
referring to him as Nappy. Just "Nap".
http://www.topix.net/content/trb/0145950270105654717615732696821022238433
Tony Cooper
>Personally, I wonder why freedom of speech issues haven't been
>discussed at all. Something mysterious is going with our collective
>subconscious. I have this idea; I know it is a stretch. Is the firing
>of Imus really about the Vietnam war experience and the Iraq war
>experience. There is how our society handled Vietnam, and there is how
>our society is handling Iraq. The two are very different. Duirng
>Vietnam people had strong, direct, and loud discussion that were on
>the line, not between the lines, and there wasn't much silent
>treatment.
>
>As a society we don't want to discuss our future. Imus was getting to
>close to discussing things we don't want to discuss. Who here wants to
>discuss the American future?
>
>Anybody feel comfortable with my take?
I don't. Imus exercised his freedom of speech and the black community
exercised theirs. They won. Wasn't anything mysterious about it.
They didn't like what he said so they put pressure on the network to
fire him. The network caved.
I don't think he should have been fired, but that's the business he
was in. He knew the risks every time he opened his mouth. I don't
think this particular risk was taken deliberately, but that doesn't
make any difference.
>
>1. Rome opened its boarders,
Not a good way to treat tenants.
>I could go on.
I hope not.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
Neither do silicone implants. But they look good.
Frank ess
It's spelled "whores"; the representation of pronunciation doesn't
change that.
Maybe it would be less acceptable as a throw-away comment if spelling
it out were required.
Or, maybe, "ho" is the result of evolution of a whole new concept, has
nothing to do with whores at all; kind of a social equivalent of
"guy". What do you think, guys and hos, and dudes?
--
Frank ess
Tony Cooper
<pe...@ozebelgDieSpammers.org> wrote:
>Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> I've listened to Imus, and what I hear is a person that deliberately
>> shocks people, but deliberately shocks across the board and includes
>> all races and subgroups. He does not appear to me to be a person who
>> feels that one race is superior to another race.
>
>I've never heard of Imus, but from this thread and elsewhere I'm getting
>a pretty clear picture of what this fuss is about.
>
>We have similar Australian "shock jocks" on Australian radio, and they
>disgust me. They aim to appeal to the racists, the misogynists, the
>political extremists, and most of all the uneducated and unintelligent.
I hope you are not getting impression that Imus was of this type.
Despite this thread and this incident, I certainly wouldn't put Imus
in the above category.
I would say his base audience was both educated and intelligent. He
routinely interviewed major public and political figures. He was
rated as one of the top 15 radio personalities.
It was a free-form show, though, and he often just rambled on about
various subjects. Girls basketball, unfortunately, was one of them.
Some of that "shock jock" reputation came from making some very un-PC
comments about the leaders of this country. He had a lot of
politicians listening to his show hoping they wouldn't be mentioned.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>>>Thanks, Donna. The lead-in for Imus was a bit more extensive than I
>>>recalled. But the reflexivity is clear. The further comments about
>>>the
>>>"rough" Rutgers women and the "cute" Tennessee women emphasizes the
>>>sexism of the comments.
>>
>> Comparing the appearances of two female basketball teams is sexism?
>>
>> Before that becomes a racist comparisons, the racial make-up of both
>> teams is about the same.
>
>The fact of his feeling the need to comment on the beauty of either team
>in a non-beauty- contest contest is sexist, Tony. Why, in sports, is
>such a comment necessary?
You don't notice such things? You don't notice when a female athlete
is attractive? You don't see that Maria Sharapova and Anna Kournikova
look better than anyone in the Fargo Ladies Curling Club?
>What does a commentator of a man's contest comment upon? Height, maybe?
>Strength? Accuracy? Aggressiveness? Skill? Speed?
Imus isn't a sports commentator. He's a talk show host. Would you
think it improper for David Letterman to comment on a female athlete's
appearance? Jay Leno?
Would you think that your local morning radio DJ was being sexist if
he said Gabrielle Reece could kick sand in his face any day?
Stuart Chapman
> Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> I've listened to Imus, and what I hear is a person that deliberately
>> shocks people, but deliberately shocks across the board and includes
>> all races and subgroups. He does not appear to me to be a person who
>> feels that one race is superior to another race.
>
> I've never heard of Imus, but from this thread and elsewhere I'm getting
> a pretty clear picture of what this fuss is about.
>
> We have similar Australian "shock jocks" on Australian radio, and they
> disgust me. They aim to appeal to the racists, the misogynists, the
> political extremists, and most of all the uneducated and unintelligent.
From what Tony Cooper said, it sounds like Imus is more the John Safran
or Matt Stone / Trey Parker type. That is, he uses outrage as a
rhetorical device to encourage honest debate. But I could be wrong. I
think this type of commentator, ironically, doesn't appeal to the hoi
polloi.
> Every so often I catch one of them while channel surfing. I might listen
> in horror for ten minutes or so, but then have to change the station for
> the sake of my blood pressure. They're often in legal trouble because of
> issues related to libel or violation of anti-vilification laws. One of
> them is in trouble at present for allegedly inciting a racist riot. (I
> haven't kept track of whether he's been convicted or whether the case is
> still pending.) In my own opinion the riot was going to happen anyway
> because of the racial tensions in a certain part of Sydney, but his wide
> influence probably played a part in ensuring that racists from around
> the country were bussed in for a bit of fun bashing the Lebanese. Yes,
> protecting free speech is a good idea, even when the speaker is someone
> I violently disagree with; but I also agree with whoever it was who said
> that your right to free speech ends at the tip of my nose, or something
> like that.
According to the Sydney Morning Herald, the PM expressed his support for
Alan Jones after Jones was found guilty of the allegations yesterday. I
can't find the article but this is from today's The Australian:
"John Howard defended Jones yesterday by saying he was a good
broadcaster who represented people on many issues."
For me the best thing about all this is that we now have John Laws
criticising Howard for this support. From today's SMH:
Your enemy's enemy is your friend.
> The thing that really bothers me is that these people don't lose their
> jobs, because the radio stations have an eye to their profits and these
> people draw in a huge audience. Having a handful of troublemakers on
> radio is a minor point. Having a huge number of people who are willing
> to listen to them indicates something really sick in our society. What I'd
> really like to see is a situation where the shock jocks lose their jobs
> because their audience is too small, but apparently that's too much to
> hope for.
>
Yep.
--
Stupot
Stuart Chapman
> m-w.com tells me what 'ho' means. But what's 'nappy'? None of
> the meaning from m-w.com seem to fit.
>
> Pronunciation: 'na-pE
> Function: noun
> Etymology: obsolete nappy, adjective, foaming
> chiefly Scottish : LIQUOR; specifically : ALE
>
> Main Entry: 2nappy
> Function: noun
> Inflected Form(s): plural nappies
> Etymology: English dialect nap bowl, from Middle English, from
> Old English hn[AE]pp; akin to Old High German hnapf bowl
> : a rimless shallow open serving dish
>
> Main Entry: 3nappy
> Function: noun
> Inflected Form(s): plural nappies
> Etymology: napkin + 4-y
> chiefly British : DIAPER 3
>
> Main Entry: 4nappy
> Function: adjective
> Inflected Form(s): napĄPpiĄPer; -est
> Etymology: 3nap
> : KINKY 1
>
> But I can see how he can be fired just by calling some nice
> college students 'hos'.
When I first heard about this, I thought 'nappy' was like 'towel-head'.
--
Stupot http://insignity.blogspot.com
Blinky the Shark
> On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:02:11 GMT, "Pat Durkin" <dur...@sbc.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>>Thanks, Donna. The lead-in for Imus was a bit more extensive than I
>>>>recalled. But the reflexivity is clear. The further comments about
>>>>the
>>>>"rough" Rutgers women and the "cute" Tennessee women emphasizes the
>>>>sexism of the comments.
>>>
>>> Comparing the appearances of two female basketball teams is sexism?
>>>
>>> Before that becomes a racist comparisons, the racial make-up of both
>>> teams is about the same.
>>
>>The fact of his feeling the need to comment on the beauty of either team
>>in a non-beauty- contest contest is sexist, Tony. Why, in sports, is
>>such a comment necessary?
>
> You don't notice such things? You don't notice when a female athlete
> is attractive? You don't see that Maria Sharapova and Anna Kournikova
> look better than anyone in the Fargo Ladies Curling Club?
Mmmmmmm......Anna K.
--
Blinky
Pat Durkin
It isn't that one notices or doesn't notice. But in a contest of
skills, such comments are extraneous, and to the extent that the speaker
judges between two teams in a sport context, the description of one team
as animals, and the other team as "cute" tends to demean the athletic
accomplishments of both teams in favor of esthetics. I ask, does the
macho man so describe the male teams (of which there are many more)?
As for the other athletes, aren't those women professionals (remember,
the Tennessee and Rutgers teams are non-pro college contestants)? And,
at least Kournikova has capitalized on her beauty, not caring much that
many disparage her athletic prowess. She _wants_ comment on her
attractiveness, because it means money in her pocket. She wins both
ways. Good luck to her.
cybercypher
[...]
> It's spelled "whores"; the representation of pronunciation doesn't
> change that.
>
> Maybe it would be less acceptable as a throw-away comment if
> spelling it out were required.
>
> Or, maybe, "ho" is the result of evolution of a whole new concept,
> has nothing to do with whores at all; kind of a social equivalent
> of "guy". What do you think, guys and hos, and dudes?
I've seen an argument claiming that there is a distinct difference
between the acceptable-in-the-African-American-community "nigga" and
the unacceptable "nigger". The former is a term of "endearment" and
the latter a term of "oppression".
Excuse me while I puke.
That's what I think of this stupidity.
Arguing about this kind of thing is about as sensible as demanding
that sportscasters confine themselves to comments about the athletic
abilities of the athletes they are assigned to chatter mindlessly and
continuously about for hours.
The language is out there on the airwaves, in print, and in the
movies (including in Rap-Crap videos and on MTV all over the world),
and anyone who thinks that it's okay for black folks to use those
words as liberally as they do without signalling to the rest of the
world that it's also okay for non-black folks to use them is a fool.
Imitation, after all, is the highest form of flattery, and nobody
likes double standards.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan.
"It has come to my attention that my opinions are not universally
shared." Scott Adams, The Dilbert Blog, 23 Jan 2007;
http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/
teranews charges a one-time US$3.95 setup fee
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Lars Enderin
> the Omrud wrote:
>
>> tr...@euronet.nl had it ...
>>
>>> Jone <Jo...@doe.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> So 'nappy' doesn't sound like a bad word. So what's offensive in
>>>> this case? Calling black players in the team 'hos'?
>>>
>>> "The Usual Suspect" went overboard in trying to define the literal
>>> definition of "nappy". "Nappy," "nap," "nappyhead" and "naphead" have
>>> been insults within the black community for a long time, along the lines
>>> of ugly, backwards, and disgusting.
>>
>>
>> FWIW I'm not familiar with this use in the UK. It's possible I've not
>> been in the circles where it would be used, but I had never heard it
>> before now.
>>
>
> think of nappies (AmE diapers). We do use "nap" for carpets, cloth (and
> a card game), but out of context, the first thought is babies' bottoms.
>
The Swedish reporter of the story in Dagens Nyheter (biggest daily in
Sweden) understood "nappy" in the British way, apparently, although he
is stationed in the USA.
cybercypher
[...]
> skills, such comments are extraneous, and to the extent that the
> speaker judges between two teams in a sport context, the
> description of one team as animals, and the other team as "cute"
> tends to demean the athletic accomplishments of both teams in
> favor of esthetics. I ask, does the macho man so describe the
> male teams (of which there are many more)?
You seem to want Calvinist (i.e., Puritan) sports reporting rather
than real-life sports reporting. Just because you're too old to care
what half-naked men and women look like when they're out there moving
their muscular bodies across the playing field doesn't mean that the
rest of the public aren't voyeurs who fully appreciate the sensual
and, in their minds, at least, sexual nature of most athletes'
movements beneath those skimpy uniforms.
> As for the other athletes, aren't those women professionals
> (remember, the Tennessee and Rutgers teams are non-pro college
> contestants)? And, at least Kournikova has capitalized on her
> beauty, not caring much that many disparage her athletic prowess.
> She _wants_ comment on her attractiveness, because it means money
> in her pocket. She wins both ways. Good luck to her.
Right, and real women don't give a damn what people say about their
appearance, which is why they don't spend any money, time, or effort
making sure that they usually look as good as they possibly can, even
when going only as far as the corner drug store in the body-shielding
SUV.
Truly Donovan
> ... He used a word - ho's - that has been
> popularized by blacks and applied by them to describe all women except
> their mothers.
Would that then be the "h" word or the "w" word?
--
Truly Donovan
HVS
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:07:47 +0200, Archie Valparaiso
><ggu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I've seen a transcript of the remark in question in context,
>> and it seems clear enough to me that Imus was simply making an
>> in-character (i.e. shock-jockesque) reference to the culture
>> that the Rutgers players -- to judge from their lean, mean,
>> multi-tattooed appearance (and, in seven out of ten cases,
>> their Newark, Bronx or Brooklyn provenance) -- seemed quite
>> proud to belong to.[2]
>>
>> Or am I missing something?
>
> I don't think so. He was commenting on the scrappy attitude and
> appearance of the players. He used a word - ho's - that has
> been popularized by blacks and applied by them to describe all
> women except their mothers.
But we've waded through that minefield lots of times, and it remains
the case that the use of a self-descriptive term by the members of a
given group does not make the use of that term by non-members of the
group OK.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed
the Omrud
> the Omrud wrote:
>
> > tr...@euronet.nl had it ...
> >
> >>Jone <Jo...@doe.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>So 'nappy' doesn't sound like a bad word. So what's offensive in
> >>>this case? Calling black players in the team 'hos'?
> >>
> >>"The Usual Suspect" went overboard in trying to define the literal
> >>definition of "nappy". "Nappy," "nap," "nappyhead" and "naphead" have
> >>been insults within the black community for a long time, along the lines
> >>of ugly, backwards, and disgusting.
> >
> > FWIW I'm not familiar with this use in the UK. It's possible I've
> > not been in the circles where it would be used, but I had never heard
> > it before now.
>
> I don't see how we could use it in BrE: the immediate response is to
> think of nappies (AmE diapers). We do use "nap" for carpets, cloth (and
> a card game), but out of context, the first thought is babies' bottoms.
And sleeping, of course.
I might have vaguely known what "nap" was before I migrated to
Manchester, but it's a far more common word in the land of textile
factories than in the land of drop forging.
--
David
=====
Martin Ambuhl
It is *not* self-descriptive. MCP Black men use it to describe women.
If they called themselves "hos" *then* it would be self-descriptive.
That some Black men feel they can verbally abuse women does not make it
acceptable as an "in-group" term. It's foul and unacceptable.
John Holmes
> Robert Bannister skrev:
>>
>> I don't see how we could use it in BrE: the immediate response is to
>> think of nappies (AmE diapers). We do use "nap" for carpets, cloth
>> (and a card game), but out of context, the first thought is babies'
>> bottoms.
> The Swedish reporter of the story in Dagens Nyheter (biggest daily in
> Sweden) understood "nappy" in the British way, apparently, although he
> is stationed in the USA.
When I did a Google search to find the page on guitarist "Nappy Lamare", all
the Google sponsored links that came up were about baby nappy-wash services.
That's with google.com.au; I wonder what happens with other localisations of
google.
Archie Valparaiso
wrought:
But, but, but, black men call *white* women "ho's" and "bitches" too
-- as Tony said, no women except perhaps their mothers are immune.
So, we come back to my original question (lost in snippage above): if
a black shock jock had referred, say, to a bunch of white cheerleaders
as "big-haired blonde bitches", would he have been be fired, fried,
skewed, sautéed and pot-roasted just as Imus has been? I rather doubt
it. And that, homes and ho's, is real racism in action -- not Imus's
throwaway comment.
--
Archie Valparaiso
_________________
Careful with that or you'll have someone's eye out.
Donna Richoux
> It's frightening that I should look up the dictionary to understand
> why a journalist lost his job. Of course, the dictionary didn't help.
I don't expect mainstream dictionaries to keep track of the nuances of
street slang. There's too much of it, and it changes too fast. The
RHHDAS does a fair job, though, up to the 1990s.
>
> We'd better learn all those dangerous words before we lose our jobs or
> our freedom for uttering them.
Ha-ha, as if you could utter them if you didn't know them? Clever. I
think you're safe.
I figure if Imus knew it was an insult, he shouldn't have said it, and
if he didn't know it was an insult, he shouldn't have said it. You just
shouldn't carelessly apply terms from outside your own linguistic group,
terms you don't know well, terms that *might* be insults, to members of
that linguistic group. Unless you want to risk getting beaten up.
Leaving aside the great indignity of honest college students being
called whores, for no reason other than some man's idle amusement. And
even if "ho" doesn't mean "prostitute" any more, it is at least an
angry, contemptuous word.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Donna Richoux
> I don't see how we could use it in BrE: the immediate response is to
> think of nappies (AmE diapers). We do use "nap" for carpets, cloth (and
> a card game), but out of context, the first thought is babies' bottoms.
Oh, I see. I have occasionally heard the turbans and headdress of
Asian/Middle Eastern men described derogatively as diapers on their
heads, so "nappy-headed" would fit that entirely differently meaning.
HVS
When I first heard about this fuss, my default assumption was that
"nappy-headed" meant "empty-headed women whose minds are filled with
thoughts of babies and diapers".
Given the restricted regional usage of "nappy" for "diaper", that was
obviously a non-starter; but it was an automatic first guess when
trying to make sense of the expression.