A harmful effect or an harmful effect?
M Winther
(1) A harmful effect
(2) An harmful effect
Both variants are much used, sometimes in the same article.
Mats
Duggy
A harmful effect.
An 'armful effect.
===
= DUG.
===
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Really? I find that very surprising. Can you cite an example?
Anyway, it's "a".
--
athel
Duggy
LFS
I am now hearing Mr Hancock. I hope this passes quickly: otherwise a new
form of STS has emerged which will need a name.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Stan Brown
Not by a native speaker, I hope.
In 21st-century English, "a" comes before a consonant sound,
including h and y, and "an" comes before a vowel sound. It is the
sound, not the spelling, that matters. Thus "a NATO exercise" because
NATO is "ANY-toe", but "an NCR machine" because NCR is "enn-see-are".
A couple of centuries ago, "an" was usual before the h sound,
especially in words like "historic". Some people will still talk
about "an historic event", but that's a special case, and they would
never say "an harmful effect".
--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com
Leslie Danks
AOS 'arf 'our syndrome
--
Les
(BrE)
Don Phillipson
news:4e2a9aa4$0$10603$c83e...@anchorman-read.tele2.net...
Even when equivalent variants are recognised, it would be a
gross editorial error to print both (without explanation) in the
same article.
But no variants are equivalent in this case. Your (1) is correct
and your (2) erroneous (regardless of pronunciation in speech.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
CDB
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@ifr88.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote:
>> M Winther said:
>>
>>> Which is correct?
>>
>>> (1) A harmful effect
>>
>>> (2) An harmful effect
>>
>>> Both variants are much used, sometimes in the same article.
>>
>> Really? I find that very surprising. Can you cite an example?
>>
>> Anyway, it's "a".
>
> It's a what?
>>
Drew Lawson
I don't find it surprising at all. In US '60s/'70s schools, I had
more than one teacher who pushed the "an before h" usage. It never
made sense to me, so I never adopted it, aside from silent/unstressed
"h" (hour, herb).
But it still whispers at the back of my head when I'm writing.
--
Drew Lawson | We were taking a vote when
| the ground came up and hit us.
| -- Cylon warrior
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> In article <98vpns...@mid.individual.net>
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@ifr88.cnrs-mrs.fr> writes:
>> On 2011-07-23 11:55:41 +0200, M Winther said:
>>
>>> Which is correct?
>>>
>>> (1) A harmful effect
>>>
>>> (2) An harmful effect
>>>
>>> Both variants are much used, sometimes in the same article.
>>
>> Really? I find that very surprising. Can you cite an example?
>>
>> Anyway, it's "a".
>
> I don't find it surprising at all.
Not surprising to find both in the same article?
> In US '60s/'70s schools, I had
> more than one teacher who pushed the "an before h" usage. It never
> made sense to me, so I never adopted it, aside from silent/unstressed
> "h" (hour, herb).
>
> But it still whispers at the back of my head when I'm writing.
--
athel
Stan Brown
>
> "Mats Winther" <ml...@swipnet.se> wrote in message
> news:4e2a9aa4$0$10603$c83e...@anchorman-read.tele2.net...
> > (2) An harmful effect
>
> and your (2) erroneous (regardless of pronunciation in speech.)
I agree with your main point, but not your parenthetical note.
Pronunciation in speech *determines* whether "a" or "an" is wanted.
Consider "a NATO exercise" versus "an NCR computer".
John Dean
> On 2011-07-23 11:55:41 +0200, M Winther said:
>
>> Which is correct?
>>
>> (1) A harmful effect
>>
>> (2) An harmful effect
>>
>> Both variants are much used, sometimes in the same article.
>
> Really? I find that very surprising.
Me too
> Can you cite an example?
Yes please
>
> Anyway, it's "a".
Troo
--
John Dean
Oxford
Stephen
I don't know of any English variety that does not aspirate the first
letter of the word. The only correct possibility is "a harmful effect."
As far as I know the only h-aspirated word in English that can take "an"
in front of it (unlike hour and [US] herb, where the "h" is not sounded)
is "historic." And that's for historic reasons. But if you say "an
historic occasion", ideally the "h" should not be sounded.
--
Stephen
Ballina, NSW
Athel Cornish-Bowden
There's "hotel" as well: "an hotel" is pretentious (saying "I know this
word is of French origin") but it exists.
--
athel
Harrison Hill
wrote:
I use "an hotel" because it can be easier to get your tongue round.
"An hotel room" but "He booked into a hotel".
Stephen
Yes, I forgot that one. Thanks for the correction.
--
Stephen
Ballina, NSW
Stephen
Do you say an hotel room or an 'otel room?
--
Stephen
Ballina, NSW
Jerry Friedman
> On 23/07/2011 7:55 PM, M Winther wrote:
>
> > Which is correct?
>
> > (1) A harmful effect
>
> > (2) An harmful effect
>
> > Both variants are much used, sometimes in the same article.
>
> > Mats
>
> I don't know of any English variety that does not aspirate the first
> letter of the word.
Not Cockney, Estuarian, whatever you call it?
> The only correct possibility is "a harmful effect."
>
> As far as I know the only h-aspirated word in English that can take "an"
> in front of it (unlike hour and [US] herb, where the "h" is not sounded)
> is "historic." And that's for historic reasons. But if you say "an
> historic occasion", ideally the "h" should not be sounded.
If I can quote myself:
The most contentious use of "an" is before unaccented syllables
beginning with "h" ("an historian", "an hotel") or with
"u" (pronounced "yu") or "eu". Formerly, this was usual. The Collins
English Dictionary says these usages are "now obsolescent" in
British English. However, the New Shorter Oxford English
Dictionary (1993) says "some retain 'an'" before words such as
"historian", and "a smaller number" retain it before words such as
"university". Indeed some posters to a.u.e. have said that "an"
before unaccented "h" is natural to them.
Students of English as a foreign language might want to note that
"a" before all consonant sounds, including /h/, is accepted if not
standard everywhere.
Discussion in a.u.e. has turned up variations of "an" before "h".
Some use "an" only if the following syllable contains a short vowel
(thus "an hysterical scream" but "a hydraulic press") or depending
on how strongly they pronounce the "h" in a particular word. In
Google searches, the use of "an" before "hu-" and "heu-" is
particularly rare (for example, "a humiliation" greatly outnumbers
"an humiliation"), as it is before words where the first syllable
carries a secondary accent ("a horizontal line" greatly outnumbers
"an horizontal line").
One variation may need a warning. On the Web, "an" is much more
common before "historic" and "heroic" than before "hilarious" or
"Hawaiian" (relative to the same phrases with "a"). Thus some
people may use "an" before words that they perceive as high-class
or solemn. Others sometimes criticize this usage, or what they
perceive to be this usage, as affected or pretentious. "'An'
historical is like our best rhetorical china." --Jason Linkins,
the Huffington Post, Nov. 9, 2008
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/09/tv-soundoff-sunday-talkin_n_142426.html
--
Jerry Friedman
Fred
"M Winther" wrote in message
news:4e2a9aa4$0$10603$c83e...@anchorman-read.tele2.net...
Which is correct?
(1) A harmful effect
(2) An harmful effect
Mats
'A harmful effect' is the only correct term in my book.
CDB
> Stephen <calder...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 23/07/2011 7:55 PM, M Winther wrote:
>>
>>> Which is correct?
>>
>>> (1) A harmful effect
>>
>>> (2) An harmful effect
>>
>>> Both variants are much used, sometimes in the same article.
>>
the words in falutional terms. I think I pronounce "hotel",
"historian", and "hiarious" with "an" and a silent "h" because I
learned to do it that way as a child -- probably from my mother, who
pronounced them the same way. "Hawaiian" I must have learned
somewhere else; maybe from Arthur Godfrey.
>>
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/09/tv-soundoff-sunday-talkin_n_142426.html
Jerry Friedman
> Jerry Friedman wrote:
...
> > In
> > Google searches, the use of "an" before "hu-" and "heu-" is
> > particularly rare (for example, "a humiliation" greatly outnumbers
> > "an humiliation"), as it is before words where the first syllable
> > carries a secondary accent ("a horizontal line" greatly outnumbers
> > "an horizontal line").
>
> > One variation may need a warning. On the Web, "an" is much more
> > common before "historic" and "heroic" than before "hilarious" or
> > "Hawaiian" (relative to the same phrases with "a"). Thus some
> > people may use "an" before words that they perceive as high-class
> > or solemn. Others sometimes criticize this usage, or what they
> > perceive to be this usage, as affected or pretentious. "'An'
> > historical is like our best rhetorical china." --Jason Linkins,
> > the Huffington Post, Nov. 9, 2008
>
> I find that I am one of those people, but I don't recall ever judging
> the words in falutional terms. I think I pronounce "hotel",
> "historian", and "hiarious" with "an" and a silent "h" because I
> learned to do it that way as a child -- probably from my mother, who
> pronounced them the same way. "Hawaiian" I must have learned
> somewhere else; maybe from Arthur Godfrey.
/Must/ we keep bringing up facts I haven't considered?
In "the hilarious" you do pronounce the "h", right?
Ah, the good old days when Google counts were trustworthy, or I
thought they were. (I first typed "Ah, the Google days".) I should
redo the counts at COCA and the British National Corpus.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
> On Sat, 23 Jul 2011 08:13:29 -0400, Don Phillipson wrote:
>
> >news:4e2a9aa4$0$10603$c83e...@anchorman-read.tele2.net...
> > > (1) A harmful effect
> > > (2) An harmful effect
>
> > But no variants are equivalent in this case. Your (1) is correct
> > and your (2) erroneous (regardless of pronunciation in speech.)
>
> I agree with your main point, but not your parenthetical note.
> Pronunciation in speech *determines* whether "a" or "an" is wanted.
> Consider "a NATO exercise" versus "an NCR computer".
I think Don was referring specifically to "harmful effect" and
suggesting that even people who say "an 'armful effect" should write
"a harmful effect". Which I would agree with.
--
Jerry Friedman
Harrison Hill
The former. The sound of the "h" is the same, but my eyes are reading
ahead, and my tongue seems to make the judgement call. "An hotel room"
is easy but "AaaEee hotel room" require more work.
Stan Brown
Please, please, please don't use Windows Live Mail for newsgroups.
It completely screws up the quoting.
Peter Moylan
> On Jul 25, 4:10 am, "CDB" <bellema...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> I find that I am one of those people, but I don't recall ever judging
>> the words in falutional terms. I think I pronounce "hotel",
>> "historian", and "hiarious" with "an" and a silent "h" because I
>> learned to do it that way as a child -- probably from my mother, who
>> pronounced them the same way. "Hawaiian" I must have learned
>> somewhere else; maybe from Arthur Godfrey.
>
> /Must/ we keep bringing up facts I haven't considered?
>
> In "the hilarious" you do pronounce the "h", right?
Now you've brought up something I'd never noticed. I usually say "a
hilarious", with an aspirated "h", but I don't pronounce the "h" in "the
hilarious". I don't know why.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
CDB
>
> Ah, the good old days when Google counts were trustworthy, or I
> thought they were. (I first typed "Ah, the Google days".) I should
> redo the counts at COCA and the British National Corpus.
>>
Jerry Friedman
You and Peter are both confusing me, and it's not funny! (Or not just
funny.)
> > Ah, the good old days when Google counts were trustworthy, or I
> > thought they were. (I first typed "Ah, the Google days".) I should
> > redo the counts at COCA and the British National Corpus.
>
> You can't overestimate the number of dead souls.
Maybe a.u.e. should move to corpse-based linguistics. (STS warning.)
If someday it may happen that a victim must be found...
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
> On Jul 25, 10:13 pm, "CDB" <bellema...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>> In "the hilarious" you do pronounce the "h", right?
>> No. That's thee 'ílarious part.
>
> You and Peter are both confusing me, and it's not funny! (Or not just
> funny.)
At the risk of confusing you further, I'll add that my pronunciation
depends on which article I start with. Normally we choose between "thuh"
and "thee" depending on whether a vowel follows. In the case of
"hilarious", it would appear that my speech apparatus is a little slow
to make the decision - possibly because I don't use the word often
enough - and more often than not a "thee" is emitted. That, of course,
forces me to choose an unaspirated "ilarious".
>>> Ah, the good old days when Google counts were trustworthy, or I
>>> thought they were. (I first typed "Ah, the Google days".) I should
>>> redo the counts at COCA and the British National Corpus.
>> You can't overestimate the number of dead souls.
>
> Maybe a.u.e. should move to corpse-based linguistics. (STS warning.)
> If someday it may happen that a victim must be found...
Necromancy might well turn out to be more reliable than googling.