Pronunciation of "dissect" (an experiment)

[Franz Delahan]

As an experiment, I ask those of you who pronounce "dissect" with a
long "i" to reflect on the fact that the word bears a prefix "dis"
which you probably pronounce with a short "i" in every other word
beginning with it. Does this observation persuade you to change your
pronunciation of this word?

This is not meant to be a condemnation of this pronunciation, which seems
to have become the prevalent one in the U.S. I am merely curious
whether others would find this argument as persuasive as I did.

--
Franz Delahan, Math. Dept., University of California at Irvine

[J Lee Jaap]

fdel...@math.uci.edu (Franz Delahan) writes:

As an experiment, I ask those of you who pronounce "dissect" with a
long "i" to reflect on the fact that the word bears a prefix "dis"
which you probably pronounce with a short "i" in every other word
beginning with it. Does this observation persuade you to change your
pronunciation of this word?

Oh, you mean it ain't pernounced "die-a-sect" sortalike "ath-a-lete"?

I wish it weren't like this, but in many places the short-i
pronunciation won't be understood. ("Oh, you mean 'die-sect'.)

Personally, I tend to make the first syllable very unaccented
and with a schwa, but I can feel an edge to it like a long 'i'.
Unfortunately.
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L....@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
employed by, not necessarily speaking for, AS&M Inc,
at NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001

[Richard N Kitchen]

Well, since we both live in Southern California, and since I have lived
in various parts of California for almost all of my 42 years, I find it
strange that you consider this pronunciation strange. If I were to
pronounce the word as "duh-SECT", I would get stares, and questions as
to which word I was trying to say.
--
Rick Kitchen da...@cleveland.freenet.edu
"I felt like I was in the room all by myself when I was talking to her."
--Margo Cody, "Black Tie Affair"

[Franz Delahan]

In article <24ei19$d...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> da...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard N Kitchen) writes:
>
>In a previous article, fdel...@math.uci.edu (Franz Delahan) says:
>
>>As an experiment, I ask those of you who pronounce "dissect" with a
>>long "i" to reflect on the fact that the word bears a prefix "dis"
>>which you probably pronounce with a short "i" in every other word
>>beginning with it. Does this observation persuade you to change your
>>pronunciation of this word?
>>
>>This is not meant to be a condemnation of this pronunciation, which seems
>>to have become the prevalent one in the U.S. I am merely curious
>>whether others would find this argument as persuasive as I did.
>>

>>Franz Delahan, Math. Dept., University of California at Irvine
>>
>
>Well, since we both live in Southern California, and since I have lived
>in various parts of California for almost all of my 42 years, I find it
>strange that you consider this pronunciation strange. If I were to
>pronounce the word as "duh-SECT", I would get stares, and questions as
>to which word I was trying to say.
>--
>Rick Kitchen da...@cleveland.freenet.edu
>"I felt like I was in the room all by myself when I was talking to her."
>--Margo Cody, "Black Tie Affair"

I did not say that I found it strange. I certainly do _not_ find it
strange in the sense of previously unknown or unfamiliar. As a matter
of fact, in the second paragraph of my posting, which you quoted but
seem not to have read, I said that I considered the long "i"
pronunciation to be the most common one in the U.S. Until a few years
ago, I pronounced it that way myself. But I _do_ find it remarkable,
because it is the only word I know in which the prefix "dis" is
commonly pronounced that way.

I think your fears of not being understood if you were to pronounce it
"duh-SECT" are not well-grounded, although I am surprised that you
chose "uh" to transcribe the sound of "i" in the usual pronunciation
of "dis." I have heard the short "i" pronunciation frequently, even
in Southern California, without any apparent confusion on the part of
the listeners. (By the way, both the American Heritage and Random
House dictionaries still list the short "i" pronunciation first.)

When I have drawn the attention of my friends to the fact that
"dissect" has "dis" and not "di" as its prefix, some have, like me,
have changed their pronunciations. Others, like you, have not found
this argument persuasive. I was curious as to what the reaction of this
group of readers would be. So far, there have been only two replies,
neither one from a convert, I must admit.

[Alan J Flavell]

I've never liked hearing "dissect" pronounced to rhyme with die-sect
either. Nor "dissection" as die-section (which, after all, is
clearly made up of DIS- with the reasonably well know noun SECTION,
whereas there might be some excuse with the verb "dissect" in as
much as I've never heard the verb "to sect" without its DIS).
I didn't see anyone mention that the erratic pronunciation MIGHT
result from confusion with BISECT.

It's common (although it always grates on my ears) to hear die-sect
here in the UK, but dis-sect is heard often enough to know that it
hasn't been lost: I would not dare to suggest which is the more
frequent overall (heaven knows why s/one suggested duh-sect, but
let's not go into that).

This is, after all, in the same class as "dismantle". Who would
pronounce that "die-smantle"? Oh well, who said English pronunciation
was logical anyway...

[J Lee Jaap]

FLA...@cernvm.cern.ch (Alan J Flavell) writes:
(heaven knows why s/one suggested duh-sect, but
let's not go into that).

If you are referring to me, the first syllable is unaccented almost to
the point of schwa; the second has the accent.

[Alan J Flavell]

In article <JAAPJL.93A...@amb3.larc.nasa.gov>

jaa...@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap) writes:
>FLA...@cernvm.cern.ch (Alan J Flavell) writes:
> (heaven knows why s/one suggested duh-sect, but
> let's not go into that).
>
>If you are referring to me, the first syllable is unaccented almost to
>the point of schwa; the second has the accent.

I'm sorry. I expressed myself with pointless discourtesy; please
accept my apology for that.

But I still disagree with you.

Although unaccented, I find that the vowel is still clearly a short
i, not the neutral e. My UK dictionary agrees (and gives no alternative
pronunciation). The online Webster also agrees, although it gives the
long i (which I dislike to the point of considering it wrong) as a
second choice.

Alan.

[Alan J Flavell]

This reminds me of another word: TRANSITION.

I frequently hear this pronounced as if it were TRAN-CISION
(presumably by analogy with INCISION?).

Comments?

Alan

[Richard N Kitchen]

Not trying to get involved in a flame war or anything but:

I have *never* heard the word pronounce dis-SECT.

It has always been die-SECT, DIE-sect or duh-SECT.

Dis-SECT seems pedantic.

[Franz Delahan]

In article <24p432$4...@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>,

Richard N Kitchen <da...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu> wrote:
>
>Not trying to get involved in a flame war or anything but:
>
>I have *never* heard the word pronounce dis-SECT.
>

I'm not sure what you mean by transcribing the pronunciation you have
in mind this way. If you mean that the "s" is pronounced twice or
lengthened, I would also say that I have never heard it said that way
If you merely mean that that the "i" is pronounced as in "sit," my
experience differs from you. By the way, I have never heard it
pronounced "duh-SECT." (Of course when we both say "have never heard,"
we really mean "do not remember having heard.")

>It has always been die-SECT, DIE-sect or duh-SECT.
>
>Dis-SECT seems pedantic.
>

When it comes to pronunciation, the Merriam-Webster dictionaries are
not prescriptive. Yet they seem to list the short "i" pronunciation
prominently (first in my edition). Somebody out there besides me must
be using that pronunciation. We could, of course, all be pedants.

>--
>Rick Kitchen da...@cleveland.freenet.edu
>"I felt like I was in the room all by myself when I was talking to her."
>--Margo Cody, "Black Tie Affair"

[marce...@googlemail.com]

The correct pronunciation is dis-section (cf. dis-mantle) regardless of whether a pronounciation resembling "die-section" is more common in some parts of the world.

[occam]

On 08/12/2017 14:48, marce...@googlemail.com wrote:
> The correct pronunciation is dis-section (cf. dis-mantle) regardless of whether a pronounciation resembling "die-section" is more common in some parts of the world.
>

How do you feel about bisect: surely 'bye-sect' rather than 'bee-sect'

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Who are you trying to educate? I think we all knew that already.


--
athel

[Peter T. Daniels]

The person who asked the question on August 5, 1993. Do try to be aware.

[RH Draney]

On 12/8/2017 6:48 AM, marce...@googlemail.com wrote:
> The correct pronunciation is dis-section (cf. dis-mantle) regardless of whether a pronounciation resembling "die-section" is more common in some parts of the world.

How would you like people to pronounce "tinnitus"?...r

[Mack A. Damia]

"The bells are ringing for me and my tus...."

[Richard Tobin]

In article <p0ea29$9a8$1...@dont-email.me>, occam <oc...@invalid.nix> wrote:

>> The correct pronunciation is dis-section (cf. dis-mantle) regardless
>>of whether a pronounciation resembling "die-section" is more common in
>>some parts of the world.

>How do you feel about bisect: surely 'bye-sect' rather than 'bee-sect'

But the prefix in dissection is dis-, not di-. It's cutting apart,
not cutting in two.

I suggest

bissection (n): cutting up twice.

-- Richard

[Peter Moylan]

On 09/12/17 11:05, RH Draney wrote:
> On 12/8/2017 6:48 AM, marce...@googlemail.com wrote:

>> The correct pronunciation is dis-section (cf. dis-mantle)
>> regardless of whether a pronounciation resembling "die-section" is
>> more common in some parts of the world.

As confusing as drive-by posters can be, they at least confirm that
Google now allows access to posts that are more than 20 years old. It
used to be difficult to find the older ones.

> How would you like people to pronounce "tinnitus"?...r

My pronunciation had to be corrected by my GP. I had been under the
impression that it belonged to the class of -itis words, with stress on
the penultimate syllable.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, December 8, 2017 at 9:06:25 PM UTC-5, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 09/12/17 11:05, RH Draney wrote:
> > On 12/8/2017 6:48 AM, marce...@googlemail.com wrote:
>
> >> The correct pronunciation is dis-section (cf. dis-mantle)
> >> regardless of whether a pronounciation resembling "die-section" is
> >> more common in some parts of the world.
>
> As confusing as drive-by posters can be, they at least confirm that
> Google now allows access to posts that are more than 20 years old. It
> used to be difficult to find the older ones.

? When was that?

> > How would you like people to pronounce "tinnitus"?...r
>
> My pronunciation had to be corrected by my GP. I had been under the
> impression that it belonged to the class of -itis words, with stress on
> the penultimate syllable.

It's tinnitus, not tinitis. There's a radio commercial for a treatment that
used to use the wrong pronunciation, but after they started having an actual
otologist speak, they included a correction.

[Dingbat]

On Friday, December 8, 2017 at 8:41:11 PM UTC+5:30, occam wrote:

> On 08/12/2017 14:48, marcehjones wrote:
> > The correct pronunciation is dis-section (cf. dis-mantle) regardless of whether a pronounciation resembling "die-section" is more common in some parts of the world.
>
> How do you feel about bisect: surely 'bye-sect' rather than 'bee-sect'

I feel bijected:->

[Dingbat]

You can't know that everyone knows that. There's also the term vivisection.
You can dissect someones arguments but not vivisect them.

[Dingbat]

That you can still hear him is a good sign:->

[avs234]

dissimilar please?

[Lewis]

In message <dimension-20...@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de> Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

That is an absurd statement. Both pronunciations are perfectly correct.

> In a movie I recently heard:

> A: We may be looking at a two-dimensional[dAImenS@n@l] civilisation.
> ¯¯
> B: Two-dimensional[dImenS@n@l] life-forms?

Both are fine.

(This sounds like The Orville).

--
If you have any young friends who aspire to become writers, the
second-greatest favor you can do them is to present them with copies of
The Elements of Style. The first-greatest, of course, is to shoot them
now, while they're happy. -Dorothy Parker

[RH Draney]

On 12/10/2017 9:43 AM, Lewis wrote:
> In message <dimension-20...@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de> Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> marce...@googlemail.com writes:
>>> The correct pronunciation is dis-section (cf. dis-mantle)
>>> regardless of whether a pronounciation resembling
>>> "die-section" is more common in some parts of the world.
>
> That is an absurd statement. Both pronunciations are perfectly correct.
>
>> In a movie I recently heard:
>
>> A: We may be looking at a two-dimensional[dAImenS@n@l] civilisation.
>> ¯¯
>> B: Two-dimensional[dImenS@n@l] life-forms?
>
> Both are fine.
>
> (This sounds like The Orville).

I recognized the premise but did not recall the switch in
pronunciation...does anyone remember which characters are represented by
A and B above (if A is Isaac, we may take his to be the pedantic
pronunciation)....r

[Richard Yates]

On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 10:58:59 -0700, RH Draney <dado...@cox.net>
wrote:

Is Isaac's voice an intentional match for Brent Spiner's as Data? I
looked at the credits to make sure it was not.

[RH Draney]

On 12/10/2017 12:24 PM, Richard Yates wrote:
>
> Is Isaac's voice an intentional match for Brent Spiner's as Data? I
> looked at the credits to make sure it was not.

It's in the nature of an homage...in the same way that Bortus's voice
sounds just like Michael Dorn's Worf....r

[Dingbat]

On Friday, August 6, 1993 at 9:24:39 AM UTC+5:30, Franz Delahan wrote:
> As an experiment, I ask those of you who pronounce "dissect" with a
> long "i" to reflect on the fact that the word bears a prefix "dis"
> which you probably pronounce with a short "i" in every other word
> beginning with it. Does this observation persuade you to change your
> pronunciation of this word?

Typically, a vowel before a <doubled consonant> is a checked vowel [1].
Perhaps <ss> in an intervocalic context is an exception, being perceived
not as a doubled consonant but as an unvoiced one as distinct from a
voiced <s>.
[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=checked+vowel

Why did German have <ß> but no <ßß>? Its pronunciation would be [s] in either
case but the purpose of orthographic (not phonetic) doubling of a consonant
in written German is to control/specify the quality/ quantity of the vowel
before it, so it seems that <ßß> ought to have had utility. That is, why is
<schloß> not spelt <schloßß>, assuming that Germans make the <o> short like
Anglophones do?

> This is not meant to be a condemnation of this pronunciation, which seems
> to have become the prevalent one in the U.S. I am merely curious
> whether others would find this argument as persuasive as I did.
>
>
>
>
>

[Peter Moylan]

On 11/12/17 09:24, Dingbat wrote:

> Why did German have <ß> but no <ßß>? Its pronunciation would be [s]
> in either case but the purpose of orthographic (not phonetic)
> doubling of a consonant in written German is to control/specify the
> quality/ quantity of the vowel before it, so it seems that <ßß> ought
> to have had utility. That is, why is <schloß> not spelt <schloßß>,
> assuming that Germans make the <o> short like Anglophones do?

Probably because ß is already a ligature, so arguably it is already in
the class of doubled consonants.

[Lewis]

I would have to go back (unlikely), but I think it was Kelly and Malloy?

This episode did have this great bit of dialog that I really liked:

More space inside than out. Like Doctor Who's phone booth.

Or Oscar the Grouch's trash can.

Or Snoopy's doghouse.

--
Q: how do you titillate an ocelot? A: you oscillate its tit a lot.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2017-12-10 23:45:38 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 11/12/17 09:24, Dingbat wrote:
>
>> Why did German have <ß> but no <ßß>? Its pronunciation would be [s]
>> in either case but the purpose of orthographic (not phonetic)
>> doubling of a consonant in written German is to control/specify the
>> quality/ quantity of the vowel before it, so it seems that <ßß> ought
>> to have had utility. That is, why is <schloß> not spelt <schloßß>,
>> assuming that Germans make the <o> short like Anglophones do?
>
> Probably because ß is already a ligature, so arguably it is already in
> the class of doubled consonants.

Does anyone regard ß as a single letter?

--
athel

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> Does anyone regard ß as a single letter?
>

I do, as all native speakers of German do.

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2017-12-11 17:42:08 +0000, Reinhold {Rey} Aman said:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone regard ß as a single letter?
>>
> I do, as all native speakers of German do.

OK. Thanks.


--
athel

[Dingbat]

On Monday, December 11, 2017 at 11:12:10 PM UTC+5:30, Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone regard ß as a single letter?
> >
> I do, as all native speakers of German do.
>

Very good! Having got that out of the way, ...

Do you find anything wrong with using <ßß>?

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Dingbat wrote:
>
> Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>
>>> Does anyone regard ß as a single letter?
>>>
>> I do, as all native speakers of German do.
>>
> Very good! Having got that out of the way, ...
>
> Do you find anything wrong with using <ßß>?
>

Yes. Everything is wrong with using <ßß>;
<ßß> = <szsz> looks Polish, not German.

[sjbe...@yahoo.com]

On Thursday, August 5, 1993 at 11:54:39 PM UTC-4, Franz Delahan wrote:
> As an experiment, I ask those of you who pronounce "dissect" with a
> long "i" to reflect on the fact that the word bears a prefix "dis"
> which you probably pronounce with a short "i" in every other word
> beginning with it. Does this observation persuade you to change your
> pronunciation of this word?
>

> This is not meant to be a condemnation of this pronunciation, which seems
> to have become the prevalent one in the U.S. I am merely curious
> whether others would find this argument as persuasive as I did.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Franz Delahan, Math. Dept., University of California at Irvine

In college I had a botany professor who was on a mission to convince everyone to pronounce "dissect" with a short "i". She said that if we students remember only one thing from her class, she hopes that would be it.

[Dingbat]

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 7:14:18 AM UTC+5:30, sjbe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In college I had a botany professor who was on a mission to convince everyone to pronounce "dissect" with a short "i". She said that if we students remember only one thing from her class, she hopes that would be it.

How does she pronounce 'bisect'?

[Dingbat]

On Friday, August 6, 1993 at 9:24:39 AM UTC+5:30, Franz Delahan wrote:
> As an experiment, I ask those of you who pronounce "dissect" with a
> long "i" to reflect on the fact that the word bears a prefix "dis"
> which you probably pronounce with a short "i" in every other word
> beginning with it. Does this observation persuade you to change your
> pronunciation of this word?
>
> This is not meant to be a condemnation of this pronunciation, which seems
> to have become the prevalent one in the U.S. I am merely curious
> whether others would find this argument as persuasive as I did.
>

The <ss> seems significant too. If you ignore that the <s>'s are in different
morphemes, in which words is there a long vowel before <ss>?

[Richard Tobin]

In article <01e86ae0-1f63-44eb...@googlegroups.com>,

Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> In college I had a botany professor who was on a mission to
>> convince everyone to pronounce "dissect" with a short "i". She said
>> that if we students remember only one thing from her class, she
>> hopes that would be it.

>How does she pronounce 'bisect'?

The prefixes "dis-" and "bi-" are usually pronounced with different
vowels.

-- Richard

[Peter T. Daniels]

IIRC the last time this came up, there was a faction arguing that "dissect" ought
to be pronounced with the same vowels as "bisect." That faction was wrong. The indication
of that wrongness is indeed the <ss> vs. the <s>.

[Ken Blake]

I'm not sure about the "usually," but I pronounce them with different
vowels. I say diss-sect and bye-sect.

[Richard Tobin]

In article <aul38dp6g855ner85...@4ax.com>,

Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:

>>>> In college I had a botany professor who was on a mission to
>>>> convince everyone to pronounce "dissect" with a short "i". She said
>>>> that if we students remember only one thing from her class, she
>>>> hopes that would be it.

>>>How does she pronounce 'bisect'?

>>The prefixes "dis-" and "bi-" are usually pronounced with different
>>vowels.

>I'm not sure about the "usually," but I pronounce them with different
>vowels. I say diss-sect and bye-sect.

Can you give any (other) examples where they are *not* pronounced that
way? I can think of one or two where "bi-" is not ("bigamy", perhaps
"billion") but none where "dis-" has "eye".

-- Richard

[Peter T. Daniels]

Confusion with "di-" '2'? "Disyllabic" is probably about as common as "bisyllabic."

[Richard Tobin]

In article <f8f8496f-f256-4034...@googlegroups.com>,

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> >>>> In college I had a botany professor who was on a mission to
>> >>>> convince everyone to pronounce "dissect" with a short "i". She said
>> >>>> that if we students remember only one thing from her class, she
>> >>>> hopes that would be it.

>> >>>How does she pronounce 'bisect'?

>> >>The prefixes "dis-" and "bi-" are usually pronounced with different
>> >>vowels.

>> >I'm not sure about the "usually," but I pronounce them with different
>> >vowels. I say diss-sect and bye-sect.

>> Can you give any (other) examples where they are *not* pronounced that
>> way? I can think of one or two where "bi-" is not ("bigamy", perhaps
>> "billion") but none where "dis-" has "eye".

>Confusion with "di-" '2'? "Disyllabic" is probably about as common as
>"bisyllabic."

Well yes, the "eye" pronunciation of "dissect" is probably the result
of mistaking the prefix for "di-", if they think about it at all.

-- Richard

[Default User]

Peter T. Daniels wrote:

[dissect with short or long i]

> IIRC the last time this came up, there was a faction arguing that
> "dissect" ought to be pronounced with the same vowels as "bisect."
> That faction was wrong. The indication of that wrongness is indeed
> the <ss> vs. the <s>.

It's certainly not wrong. All dictionaries I checked support both
pronounciations. You certainly are free to prefer one over the other.
English spelling and pronounciation are far from logical and/or
consistent.


Brian

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

Maybe from a writer who's dipolar?

Seriously, I'm surprised that "disect" doesn't exist. How do you say
"cut into two unequal parts"?

--
Let's slice and dicect this issue!

[bebe...@aol.com]

But "disyllabic" has "eye" because, precisely, its "di-" means "2". The
strange thing about it, though, is that it can also apparently be spelled
"dissyllabic" (while keeping the "eye" pronunciation), but the confusion
is then between "di-" and "dis-".

[Peter T. Daniels]

? That's not apparent to me.

[J. J. Lodder]

So a dislectic is someone who needs to read everything twice.
Makes sense,

Jan

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

It is in the OED but the only quotations are from a single author:

† di'sect, v.

Etymology: < di- prefix1 + Latin sect- participial stem of secare to
cut: compare dissect.
Obs.

trans. To cut asunder, to separate by cutting.

a1690 S. Jeake ????st??? ????a (1696) 22 As if in the former
Example, 8 should be disected into 2.2.2.2.
a1690 S. Jeake ????st??? ????a (1696) 41 Expressed..by two
termes..disected as it were the one from the other.

The author and publication were:

Samuel Jeake · Logistike logia, or arithmetick surveighed and
reviewed; in four books · 1696.

He was a Lawyer and nonconformist preacher.

>How do you say
>"cut into two unequal parts"?

--

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[bebe...@aol.com]

disyllabic or dissyllabic
[dahy-si-lab-ik, dis-i- or dis-i-lab-ik, dis-si-, dahy-si-]


(http://www.dictionary.com/browse/disyllabic?s=t)

[Peter Moylan]

"Diss" is now a common slang word. Does anyone pronounce it like "dice"?

[Peter T. Daniels]

Curiously, it tends to be spelled <dis> these days.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Not here ....

https://tinyurl.com/y829hdzk

... they don't!

[hugh.c....@gmail.com]

The grammatically logical pronunciation is dis-sect. I think the confusion comes from the word meaning to cut in two, bisect. The two are roughly related so are often confused.