Welcome to Glawster

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felix

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Nov 15, 2001, 4:51:29 AM11/15/01
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The first point all tourists must learn is that this is not Gloucester
at all but Glawster, and is situated north of Bristow and south of
Burmagum.

The accent is simple and easy to follow, provided you cut out this
article and keep it about your person at all times during your stay.
First, transport hints for travelling during your stay here.

The best way to get around Gloucester is aboard a large vehicle called
a buzz. These are found at buzz tops. At a buzz top you ketch yer
buzz.

ATTRACTIONS
Once in the city centre, known as up the town, attractions include the
Po Stoffice where you can buy post lorders, stamps etc.
Ladies queuing in front of you may be holding children in their arms.
These are known as babbiz.
The Po Stoffice is open all week Mundee to Sardee, but never on a
Sundee.
The same is true of Omes Tores, the well-know Sainsbriz.

FOOD
The correct way of saying hungry is 'Ant add nutten teat all day' - a
suitable reply is 'Ant ya?'
To satisfy your hunger you have to find a place where you can summit
teat. When you find one, you say 'yer tiz'.
If it's a self-service place you greet the owner with the phrase - 'ow
be?', he will reply, 'Notsa bad, an you?'
Indicate the food you want by saying, 'I'll ave some o' them chips'.
You should always say them instead of 'those' and 'er' instead of
'she'. Hence the phrase 'Er et all them elvers on Sardee'.
Similarly 'im is used instead of 'it'. For example, 'werz me
wheelbarra? I ad im yesde.'

PHRASES
Questions begin with the words 'Wer?', 'Oooo?', 'Ow?', etc.
Answers are 'tis' (positive) and 'tent' (negative). The word 'yes' has
been abolished in Gloucester and replaced by 'aah'.
If a local is not certain whether a thing 'tis' or 'tent' he will be
non-committal and say 'spexso', 'praps', or 'spose'.
In Gloucester you must remember that you never go TO a place but UP
it. So you should say 'up the doctor's', 'up the library', 'up the
vets' and 'up the bingo'.
Occasionally, words are added to the end of a sentence to form a
question such as 'ennit'. Example: 'Good up yer ennit?'. Another such
word is 'cannus', as in 'can't do tall at once cannus?'.
Quite often the word 'mind' is added at the end of a sentence for
emphasis. For example if someone asks you where you are going: 'Were
ya going?' 'Up town mind'.
The word 'mind' is often used in rugby. For instance: 'ees a big un
mind' or 'played well mind'. (Note: rugby is the most widely
worshipped religion in Glawster.)

COMPLIMENT
People and things you like should be referred to as 'proper good'.
You also use the word 'proper' when you want to emphasise another
word, as in
'Them cockles was proper tasty'. Strangely, you can be 'proper drunk'
and a 'proper devil' too.
If you stop liking someone then you have 'gawn awf' them. Mouldy
cheese is also described as 'gawn awf'.
If during your visit your health goes awf, be sure to get a doctor's
sustiffcut.
The highest compliment you can pay to people you are fond of is to
describe them as 'dead good', 'dead generous', etc.
A cheerful youngster is a 'dead appy babee'. It is also possible to be
dead lively and dead awake.

Now try these for practice:
I sin im yesdee.
Me babbiz lost her at.
Tent right . Tis! Praps, praps not.
Givus un yer.
Werya bin? - Werja think?

Preferably this should be done late at night, to the noise of car
doors slamming and the sound should be loud enough to carry four times
around the block.

To your 'Ta-laas' they will shout the traditional Gloucester phrase,
'Seeya gen'.

Hope you coddit all proper clear - seezy ennit?

felix

Glenn Booth

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Nov 15, 2001, 2:15:18 PM11/15/01
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felix <fel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:430d1c32.01111...@posting.google.com...

> The first point all tourists must learn is that this is not
Gloucester
> at all but Glawster, and is situated north of Bristow and south of
> Burmagum.

[big snip]

An admirable effort, though not without its shortcomings.

What study of yokeleeze is complete without mention
of that universally useful word "Gurt". Used alone, it
means "big" as in

"Ees gurt, ennim?" (He's big, isn't he?)
"Thassa gurt t'marter you got thur, ennit?" (You have a large
tomato, don't you?)

It is more versatile than this, however. It is also widely
used for emphasis (an alternative to 'proper'), giving

"Oi asta squeeze this gurt big pimmle" (I must do something
about my acne)

"Him's gunarafta foind a gurt tracter ifn ee wants to get
that gurt big lot of tayters up town, mind". (He will need a
large tractor to transport that huge pile of Kind Edwards).

It also has a rarer use; to refer to one's mother.

"Oi, Gurt". (Mater, may I bother you?)

It should also be pointed out (in order to save potential
confusion) that Wells (the city, as in "Bath and Wells")
is pronounced identically to Wales (the country).
Both sound rather like "wews".
Rather than suffer the inconvenience of making one of
the two words sound different, locals may say

"Ees going up Welsh Wews" (He's going to Wales)
"Ees going up Wews" (He's going to Wells).

"Welsh" is introduced as the differentiator. In
this case, it is not redundant in speech.

Finally, we have the inexplicable lengthening
of some words, for example

"Oi cassn't see fer dust" (I can't see anything).

Perhaps you might consider these comments as
potential additions to your (no doubt forthcoming)
"Goide to the Wesscountry".

Regards,

Glenn

Steve Hayes

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Nov 15, 2001, 10:48:02 PM11/15/01
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On 15 Nov 2001 01:51:29 -0800, fel...@hotmail.com (felix) wrote:


>Once in the city centre, known as up the town, attractions include the
>Po Stoffice where you can buy post lorders, stamps etc.

Why isn't it called the Po Stawfis?


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Fabian

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Nov 15, 2001, 7:36:44 PM11/15/01
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> "Ees going up Welsh Wews" (He's going to Wales)
> "Ees going up Wews" (He's going to Wells).
>
> "Welsh" is introduced as the differentiator. In
> this case, it is not redundant in speech.

Ahem.

You mispelt "Wewsh".


--
--
Fabian
To find out what makes paranoiacs tic, follow them around and watch them
for a while.


John Holmes

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Nov 16, 2001, 12:51:42 AM11/16/01
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"felix" <fel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:430d1c32.01111...@posting.google.com...
> The first point all tourists must learn is that this is not Gloucester
> at all but Glawster, and is situated north of Bristow and south of
> Burmagum.
>
> The accent is simple and easy to follow, provided you cut out this
> article and keep it about your person at all times during your stay.
> First, transport hints for travelling during your stay here.

Well done, felix!

It has a lot in common with Strine (as documented by Prof Afferbeck
Lauder). Glawster must be one of the places we borrowed our language
from.


--
Regards
John


Joe Fineman

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Nov 16, 2001, 5:03:10 PM11/16/01
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fel...@hotmail.com (felix) writes:

> The first point all tourists must learn is that this is not
> Gloucester at all but Glawster,

So also for the fishing town in Massachusetts, but everything else is
rather different.

There was once a young lady of Gloucester,
Whose parents were sure they had lost her.
For in the green grass
Was the print, etc.
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com

||: A scientist wants to be right; a politician wants to have :||
||: been right. :||

Richard Fontana

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Nov 16, 2001, 5:14:30 PM11/16/01
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On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Joe Fineman wrote:

> fel...@hotmail.com (felix) writes:
>
> > The first point all tourists must learn is that this is not
> > Gloucester at all but Glawster,
>
> So also for the fishing town in Massachusetts, but everything else is
> rather different.
>
> There was once a young lady of Gloucester,
> Whose parents were sure they had lost her.

That doesn't rhyme! "Gloucester" has the "cot" vowel, and "lost" has
the "caught" vowel. But people in Gloucester Mass wouldn't make this
distinction.


Richard Chambers

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Nov 16, 2001, 8:14:07 PM11/16/01
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Richard Fontana wrote
In standard English, as spoken by the rest of the country (but not by the
inhabitants of Glawster itself), Gloucester rhymes exactly with "lost 'er".

Other places to watch out for are Bicester, which sounds as if it should be
spelt Bister; Worcester which sounds midway between Wuster and Wooster; but
don't start getting too clever, because Cirencester is pronounced exactly as
spelt (Syren-cester).

Incidentally, all the towns ending in -cester (eg Worcester,
Bicester), -caster (eg Lancaster), and -chester (eg Manchester, Chester)
originated as Roman military camps. Their name derives from "castra", the
Latin for camp.

Dick Chambers Leeds UK.


Richard Fontana

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Nov 16, 2001, 10:32:41 PM11/16/01
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On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Richard Chambers wrote:

> Richard Fontana wrote
> > On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Joe Fineman wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > There was once a young lady of Gloucester,
> > > Whose parents were sure they had lost her.
> >
> > That doesn't rhyme! "Gloucester" has the "cot" vowel, and "lost" has
> > the "caught" vowel. But people in Gloucester Mass wouldn't make this
> > distinction.
> >
> In standard English, as spoken by the rest of the country (but not by the
> inhabitants of Glawster itself), Gloucester rhymes exactly with "lost 'er".

Standard *wot*? I think you mean standard Englandish, but I'm not
entirely sure.

I can't really make a generalization about American English on this point,
except that I'm guessing most CINC Americans put "lost" in the
"caught" class. "Gloucester" is sort of a funny thing. The only
Gloucester in the US that I know of is the charming little fishing village
in eastern Massachusetts. In that dialect region people are typically
CIC. So I can't quite explain why I use the "cot" vowel in
"Gloucester", but it might be one of those Utah=Utaw things. All's I can
tell you is is "Glawster" doesn't sound right. (Are there any native
Massachusetts CINCs out there who can shed some light on this?)

I remember in Shakespeare the spelling "Gloster" occurs, for whatever
that's worth. But I guess the "cot" vowel is used in UK "lost".

> Other places to watch out for are Bicester, which sounds as if it should be
> spelt Bister; Worcester which sounds midway between Wuster and Wooster;

Worcester Mass is /wUstR/ or /wUst@/, using the vowel of "book".

Steve Hayes

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Nov 17, 2001, 3:02:20 AM11/17/01
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On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 17:14:30 -0500, Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>
wrote:

Rhymes for me, I use the "cot" vowel for both.

Jonathan Jordan

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Nov 17, 2001, 5:36:55 AM11/17/01
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Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.21.011116...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>...

I think that in Gloucester, Gloucestershire, both "Gloucester" and
"lost" would have the "caught" vowel. This used to be quite common in
southern England, including old-fashioned RP - indeed I wouldn't be
surprised if a1a pronounces them /lO:st/ and /glO:st@(r)/. You quite
often see "orf" written as eye-dialect (usually representing
upper-class speech) for "off", although of course no-one actually puts
an /r/ in it.

These days most people in England will call Gloucester /glA.st@(r)/
and pronounce "lost", "off" etc. with /A./.

Jonathan

Steve Hayes

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Nov 17, 2001, 7:27:21 AM11/17/01
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On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 01:14:07 -0000, "Richard Chambers"
<dick.no_spam_p...@cwcom.net> wrote:

>Richard Fontana wrote
>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Joe Fineman wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > There was once a young lady of Gloucester,
>> > Whose parents were sure they had lost her.
>>
>> That doesn't rhyme! "Gloucester" has the "cot" vowel, and "lost" has
>> the "caught" vowel. But people in Gloucester Mass wouldn't make this
>> distinction.
>>
>In standard English, as spoken by the rest of the country (but not by the
>inhabitants of Glawster itself), Gloucester rhymes exactly with "lost 'er".
>
>Other places to watch out for are Bicester, which sounds as if it should be
>spelt Bister; Worcester which sounds midway between Wuster and Wooster; but
>don't start getting too clever, because Cirencester is pronounced exactly as
>spelt (Syren-cester).

I thought it was pronounced Sisister - or is that an urban legend?

a1a5...@sprint.ca

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Nov 17, 2001, 9:18:20 AM11/17/01
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On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:02:20 GMT, haye...@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes)
wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 17:14:30 -0500, Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Joe Fineman wrote:
>>
>>> fel...@hotmail.com (felix) writes:
>>>
>>> > The first point all tourists must learn is that this is not
>>> > Gloucester at all but Glawster,
>>>
>>> So also for the fishing town in Massachusetts, but everything else is
>>> rather different.
>>>
>>> There was once a young lady of Gloucester,
>>> Whose parents were sure they had lost her.
>>
>>That doesn't rhyme! "Gloucester" has the "cot" vowel, and "lost" has
>>the "caught" vowel. But people in Gloucester Mass wouldn't make this
>>distinction.
>
>Rhymes for me, I use the "cot" vowel for both.

>Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa

EE/cockney has a pronunciation of 'lost', which inserts a hypothetical
'r' so that you get 'lorst'. Even 'across' in this dialect becomes
'acrorst'. That's Richard's "caught" vowel, like that of 'Glawster'
(but you have to come from Gloucester to say Glawster--everybody else
says 'GLOSStah'.

I see out Belfast expert thinks the 'lorst' is "old RP". Perhaps he
thinks W.W. Jacobs (a great eye-dialect writer) graduated his
nightwatchman from Harrow, with Churchill.

Richard Fontana

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Nov 17, 2001, 10:26:40 AM11/17/01
to
On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 a1a5...@sprint.ca wrote:

> On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:02:20 GMT, haye...@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes)
> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 17:14:30 -0500, Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Joe Fineman wrote:
> >>
> >>> fel...@hotmail.com (felix) writes:
> >>>
> >>> > The first point all tourists must learn is that this is not
> >>> > Gloucester at all but Glawster,
> >>>
> >>> So also for the fishing town in Massachusetts, but everything else is
> >>> rather different.
> >>>
> >>> There was once a young lady of Gloucester,
> >>> Whose parents were sure they had lost her.
> >>
> >>That doesn't rhyme! "Gloucester" has the "cot" vowel, and "lost" has
> >>the "caught" vowel. But people in Gloucester Mass wouldn't make this
> >>distinction.
> >
> >Rhymes for me, I use the "cot" vowel for both.
>
> >Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
>
> EE/cockney has a pronunciation of 'lost', which inserts a hypothetical
> 'r' so that you get 'lorst'. Even 'across' in this dialect becomes
> 'acrorst'. That's Richard's "caught" vowel, like that of 'Glawster'
> (but you have to come from Gloucester to say Glawster--everybody else
> says 'GLOSStah'.

Just to clarify matters: *My* caught vowel, as opposed to my
reference to the caught vowel, is unlike the RP caught vowel
phonetically. Still, like your RP and EE/cockney speakers I am CINC in my
own way. But in my CINC US case, "gloss", like "loss" and "lost", gets
the "caught" vowel and not the "cot" vowel. So to me "Glosster" and
"Glawster" suggest pretty much the same pronunciation, except that
"Glawster" could be eye-dialect for a markedly close or diphthongized
"caught" vowel.

Just why I use the "caught" vowel in "Gloucester [Massachusetts]", the
first Gloucester I probably ever heard of (though actually Gloucester
occurs in a familiar nursery rhyme, does it not?) so insistently is
unclear, since Massachusetts speakers, from the greater Boston region, are
likely to merge cot and caught. It may be that to me or, more likely,
whomever I learned the pronunciation of "Gloucester" from (most likely
immediate ancestors), the Massachusettsian vowel sounded more like a cot
than a caught in that particular word. Odd, though, since I have heard
Bostonian pronunciations of "Gloucester" that sounded more like
"Glawstah" to me, where by "aw" I mean that most familiar Boston 'cod'
diphthong that sort of sounds like "wa".

Jonathan Jordan

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Nov 17, 2001, 10:42:51 AM11/17/01
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haye...@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) wrote in message news:<3bf5cebf...@news.saix.net>...

> On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 17:14:30 -0500, Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Joe Fineman wrote:
> >
> >> fel...@hotmail.com (felix) writes:
> >>
> >> > The first point all tourists must learn is that this is not
> >> > Gloucester at all but Glawster,
> >>
> >> So also for the fishing town in Massachusetts, but everything else is
> >> rather different.
> >>
> >> There was once a young lady of Gloucester,
> >> Whose parents were sure they had lost her.
> >
> >That doesn't rhyme! "Gloucester" has the "cot" vowel, and "lost" has
> >the "caught" vowel. But people in Gloucester Mass wouldn't make this
> >distinction.
>
> Rhymes for me, I use the "cot" vowel for both.

Do you also use the "cot" vowel in "off"? My image of South African
accents (which largely comes from cricket commentators) is that they
tend to make "off" sound like "awf" [O:f] to my ears.

Jonathan

Richard Fontana

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Nov 17, 2001, 11:51:16 AM11/17/01
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As far as I can tell:

> > >On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Joe Fineman wrote:
> > >
> > >> fel...@hotmail.com (felix) writes:
> > >>
> > >> > The first point all tourists must learn is that this is not
> > >> > Gloucester at all but Glawster,
> > >>
> > >> So also for the fishing town in Massachusetts, but everything else is
> > >> rather different.
> > >>
> > >> There was once a young lady of Gloucester,
> > >> Whose parents were sure they had lost her.

And then I wrote:
> > >That doesn't rhyme! "Gloucester" has the "cot" vowel, and "lost" has
> > >the "caught" vowel. But people in Gloucester Mass wouldn't make this
> > >distinction.

Actually, though, it sounds like Joe Fineman is saying that the
Massachusetts "Gloucester" is "Glawster", which I suppose indicates
that he is a native CINC and not a CIC person. But then I think it
further suggests that CINC Joe Fineman uses the "cot" vowel in "lost".

Jonathan Jordan

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Nov 17, 2001, 12:55:25 PM11/17/01
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Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.21.011116...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>...

That's essentially the same as the one in England then. People in
Gloucester are probably mostly rhotic and people in Worcester may be
as well (it would only affect the final "r" if they are, the first one
being silent everywhere), but I'm not quite sure where the boundary
is. Bristol is rhotic (very strikingly so) and Birmingham isn't.

I don't know whether Clarence thinks that "Belfast" is an insult, but
given his bigoted views about the Irish, I can believe that he does.
He seems to be incredibly ignorant for one who tries to lay down the
law on which pronunciations are correct. It is well known that
old-fashioned varieties of RP have /O:/ in "off", and that that
pronunciation is associated with upper-class speech (as well as
Cockney and Gloucester). The Queen, for one, is known for using it
(or does Clarence think her a Cockney as well?).

Jonathan

felix

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Nov 17, 2001, 2:34:38 PM11/17/01
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"Richard Chambers" <dick.no_spam_p...@cwcom.net> wrote in message news:<4SiJ7.46$_x4.1132@news2-hme0>...

> Cirencester is pronounced exactly as
> spelt (Syren-cester).

Except in Cirencester (and Glawster) where it's pronounced 'Soyrencester.'

felix

a1a5...@sprint.ca

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Nov 17, 2001, 3:22:33 PM11/17/01
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On 17 Nov 2001 09:55:25 -0800, jonatha...@st-annes.ox.ac.uk
(Jonathan Jordan) wrote:

Your extraordinary pronouncements lead me to believe that you are not
only Irish, but Roman Cartholic Irish, and hence twice as full of bull
as most of God's creatures.

Once again, RP does not have 'orf'. And it never has had 'orf'.

Mark Barratt

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Nov 17, 2001, 3:22:46 PM11/17/01
to
On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 12:27:21 GMT, haye...@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes)
wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 01:14:07 -0000, "Richard Chambers"
><dick.no_spam_p...@cwcom.net> wrote:

>>Other places to watch out for are Bicester, which sounds as if it should be
>>spelt Bister; Worcester which sounds midway between Wuster and Wooster; but
>>don't start getting too clever, because Cirencester is pronounced exactly as
>>spelt (Syren-cester).
>
>I thought it was pronounced Sisister - or is that an urban legend?

I'm sure I've heard that Cirencester has a local pronunciation, but I
don't recall it, and I don't think it's widely known. Certainly, I've
only ever heard it as 'siren sessta' /'saIr@n,sEst@/ and it's less
than seventy miles from where I grew up.

Mark Barratt

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Nov 17, 2001, 3:34:43 PM11/17/01
to
On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 10:26:40 -0500, Richard Fontana
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote, in part:

>Just why I use the "caught" vowel in "Gloucester [Massachusetts]", the
>first Gloucester I probably ever heard of (though actually Gloucester
>occurs in a familiar nursery rhyme, does it not?) so insistently is
>unclear, since Massachusetts speakers, from the greater Boston region, are
>likely to merge cot and caught.

Doctor Foster
Went to Gloucester
In a shower of rain
He stepped in a puddle
Right up to his middle
And never went there again.

I think I must have learned that more than forty years ago. But I
can't remember to go shopping while the supermarket is open. Isn't
memory an odd thing?

So do you rhyme "Foster" and "Gloucester", Richard?

Joe Fineman

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Nov 17, 2001, 5:30:14 PM11/17/01
to
Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> writes:

> Actually, though, it sounds like Joe Fineman is saying that the
> Massachusetts "Gloucester" is "Glawster", which I suppose indicates
> that he is a native CINC and not a CIC person.

Commander in Chief? Ah, no. For the record, I am not a Massachusetts
native, and tho I have lived in the state off & on for a total of 24
years, I doubt if my pronunciation has been much affected. I believe
my dialect is fundamentally midwestern (due to my mother), much
overlaid with affectations. For me, "cot" is [kAt], "caught" is
[kOt], and "Gloucester" is [glOst-r]

> But then I think it further suggests that CINC Joe Fineman uses the
> "cot" vowel in "lost".

No. [lOst]. Gloucester, lost her, and Foster rhyme perfectly in my
dialect (along with crossed her, which completes the limerick).


--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com

||: When a Scotsman moves to England, it raises the average of :||
||: intelligence in both countries. :||

Mark Barratt

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Nov 17, 2001, 5:55:43 PM11/17/01
to
On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:30:14 GMT, Joe Fineman <j...@TheWorld.com>
wrote:

||: When a Scotsman moves to England, it raises the average of :||
||: intelligence in both countries. :||

This implies, not only that Scotsmen are of higher intelligence than
the English, but also that they're leaving behind something of higher
intelligence than themselves. This would be the Scotswomen,
presumably.

Richard Fontana

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Nov 17, 2001, 9:31:01 PM11/17/01
to
On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Mark Barratt wrote:

> So do you rhyme "Foster" and "Gloucester", Richard?

No way. "Foster" has the "caught" vowel". "Gloucester" has
the "cot" vowel, like "imposter".

Steve Hayes

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Nov 18, 2001, 12:35:02 AM11/18/01
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On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 14:18:20 GMT, a1a5...@sprint.ca wrote:


>EE/cockney has a pronunciation of 'lost', which inserts a hypothetical
>'r' so that you get 'lorst'. Even 'across' in this dialect becomes
>'acrorst'. That's Richard's "caught" vowel, like that of 'Glawster'
>(but you have to come from Gloucester to say Glawster--everybody else
>says 'GLOSStah'.
>
>I see out Belfast expert thinks the 'lorst' is "old RP". Perhaps he
>thinks W.W. Jacobs (a great eye-dialect writer) graduated his
>nightwatchman from Harrow, with Churchill.

I recall a book from my childhood (Secret seven?) in which the local fuzz was
in the habit of saying "Clear orf".


--

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa

R J Valentine

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Nov 18, 2001, 12:58:03 AM11/18/01
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On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 20:22:33 GMT a1a5...@sprint.ca wrote:

} On 17 Nov 2001 09:55:25 -0800, jonatha...@st-annes.ox.ac.uk

...


}>I don't know whether Clarence thinks that "Belfast" is an insult, but
}>given his bigoted views about the Irish, I can believe that he does.
}>He seems to be incredibly ignorant for one who tries to lay down the
}>law on which pronunciations are correct. It is well known that
}>old-fashioned varieties of RP have /O:/ in "off", and that that
}>pronunciation is associated with upper-class speech (as well as
}>Cockney and Gloucester). The Queen, for one, is known for using it
}>(or does Clarence think her a Cockney as well?).
}>
}>Jonathan
}
} Your extraordinary pronouncements lead me to believe that you are not
} only Irish, but Roman Cartholic Irish, and hence twice as full of bull
} as most of God's creatures.
}
} Once again, RP does not have 'orf'. And it never has had 'orf'.

But the wife of the Duke of Edinburgh wouldn't use a commoner burr
anyway.

--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>
(Matrilineally as Irish as they come)

Jonathan Jordan

unread,
Nov 18, 2001, 2:46:34 AM11/18/01
to
a1a5...@sprint.ca wrote in message news:<3bf6c6ec....@news.sprint.ca>...

> Your extraordinary pronouncements lead me to believe that you are not
> only Irish, but Roman Cartholic Irish, and hence twice as full of bull
> as most of God's creatures.

I'll give you 10 out of 10 for obnoxious bigotry, and 0 out of 10 for
accurate guessing.

>
> Once again, RP does not have 'orf'. And it never has had 'orf'.

I suggest you check the OED again. Or indeed any reference as to how
RP was pronounced circa 1900.

Steve Hayes

unread,
Nov 18, 2001, 8:35:58 AM11/18/01
to
On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 21:22:46 +0100, Mark Barratt <mark.b...@chello.be>
wrote:

I first encountered it on a busman's holiday - the London Transport Flying
Club organised a coach trip to the Wye Valley, and on the way we passed near
to Cirencester, and there was some debate as to how it should be pronounced.
Some said Siren Sester, some said Sirrinster and some said Sisister. I was
sitting with a bunch of Irish who were teaching me how to sing "Up went Nelson
in old Dublin" so I wasn't paying enough attenton.

Steve Hayes

unread,
Nov 18, 2001, 8:35:59 AM11/18/01
to
On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 21:34:43 +0100, Mark Barratt <mark.b...@chello.be>
wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 10:26:40 -0500, Richard Fontana

Persumably when one is there, it is Dr Vorster, whom I had occasion to mention
in another post.

But the local aircrafft manufacturers called their products "Gloster" -
fighter aircraft called Meteors and Javelins. They probably make the
upholstery for the Airbus now.

--

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa

a1a5...@sprint.ca

unread,
Nov 18, 2001, 9:05:08 AM11/18/01
to
On Sun, 18 Nov 2001 05:58:03 -0000, R J Valentine <r...@smart.net>
wrote:

Even Scotch plebs have for some time been able to afford combs.

The malicious humour evinced by the advisors involved in the bestowal
of Philip's title was evidently not observed by Majesty, but the
senior Battenberg may have been dimly aware of it.

a1a5...@sprint.ca

unread,
Nov 18, 2001, 9:05:09 AM11/18/01
to
On 17 Nov 2001 23:46:34 -0800, jonatha...@st-annes.ox.ac.uk
(Jonathan Jordan) wrote:

>a1a5...@sprint.ca wrote in message news:<3bf6c6ec....@news.sprint.ca>...
>> Your extraordinary pronouncements lead me to believe that you are not
>> only Irish, but Roman Cartholic Irish, and hence twice as full of bull
>> as most of God's creatures.
>
>I'll give you 10 out of 10 for obnoxious bigotry, and 0 out of 10 for
>accurate guessing.
>

You mean that not even the Irish will have you, or that you are a
Prod? The bull factor, I suspect, is iin any case idiosyncratic.


>>
>> Once again, RP does not have 'orf'. And it never has had 'orf'.
>
>I suggest you check the OED again. Or indeed any reference as to how
>RP was pronounced circa 1900.

The tone deaf cannot be helped but try to say

on
off (or often)
orphan

to yourself. All are RP yardsticks.

The three vowels are different. The cockney 'orf' is the last one.
It is close enough to the second to allow Gilbert & Sullivan some
mirth, and to confuse people like you, who use dictionaries to replace
hearing.

Jacqui

unread,
Nov 18, 2001, 3:27:40 PM11/18/01
to
felix wrote
> Richard Chambers wrote

>
> > Cirencester is pronounced exactly as
> > spelt (Syren-cester).
>
> Except in Cirencester (and Glawster) where it's pronounced
'Soyrencester.'

I had two flatmates in 1994 - one said Sissister, the other Soyren (no
cester). Both born and brought up there, but one with elderly parents
(sissister) and the other with farming parents (soyren). They moved to
Oxford and were astonished to find the (my) local accent so different
from theirs... (I doubt any non-Gloucs/Oxon people could have told us
apart but never mind)

Jac

Joe Fineman

unread,
Nov 18, 2001, 9:58:05 PM11/18/01
to
Mark Barratt <mark.b...@chello.be> writes:

No, it would be sufficient if the emigrating Scotsmen were stupider
than the average Scotsman -- but, of course, still more intelligent
than the average Englishman or -woman.


--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com

||: The things you think when you're not thinking! :||

Mark Barratt

unread,
Nov 19, 2001, 12:21:26 AM11/19/01
to
On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 02:58:05 GMT, Joe Fineman <j...@TheWorld.com>
wrote:

>Mark Barratt <mark.b...@chello.be> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:30:14 GMT, Joe Fineman <j...@TheWorld.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> ||: When a Scotsman moves to England, it raises the average of :||
>> ||: intelligence in both countries. :||
>>
>> This implies, not only that Scotsmen are of higher intelligence than
>> the English, but also that they're leaving behind something of
>> higher intelligence than themselves. This would be the Scotswomen,
>> presumably.
>
>No, it would be sufficient if the emigrating Scotsmen were stupider
>than the average Scotsman -- but, of course, still more intelligent
>than the average Englishman or -woman.

It would be sufficient for your joke, true. A little reflection ought
to be sufficient to persuade you, however, that the reality for
Scotland is other than your joke implies, and not all that funny (or
maybe that's why it's funny - I may be English, but sometimes irony
hurts too much to be funny).

Hegemony (English, American or other) is a topic worth discussing in
its own right. Anyone for a new thread?

Richard Fontana

unread,
Nov 19, 2001, 12:44:24 AM11/19/01
to
On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Mark Barratt wrote:

> Hegemony (English, American or other) is a topic worth discussing in
> its own right. Anyone for a new thread?

Sure. What aspect of it are you interested in discussing? The
pronunciation?

Mark Barratt

unread,
Nov 19, 2001, 1:48:57 AM11/19/01
to

Hehe.

No, I'd like to know if it's insulting.

Alan Jones

unread,
Nov 19, 2001, 4:01:38 AM11/19/01
to

<a1a5...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:3bf6c6ec....@news.sprint.ca...

> Once again, RP does not have 'orf'. And it never has had 'orf'.

RP used to have "awf" for "off", and still has for some hyperlectal speakers
whom I know, as well as for Her Majesty whom I don't. An RP speaker, by
definition non-rhotic, would pronounce the non-word "orf" as "awf". "Off"
for the traditionalists rhymes with "wharf" and the first syllable of
"orphan" and "often" (no 't' sounded). So a1a's dictum holds good if "orf"
implies an 'r' sounded in some way; if not, not. (By the way, my leading
local practitioner of hyperlectal speech says "goff" for "golf" as well as
"awfn" for "often". I say "offn".)

Alan Jones (semi-rhotic when caught unprepared)

Jonathan Jordan

unread,
Nov 19, 2001, 4:17:04 AM11/19/01
to
a1a5...@sprint.ca wrote in message news:<3bf7bbd0....@news.sprint.ca>...

<snip>

>
> The tone deaf cannot be helped but try to say
>
> on
> off (or often)
> orphan
>
> to yourself. All are RP yardsticks.
>
> The three vowels are different. The cockney 'orf' is the last one.
> It is close enough to the second to allow Gilbert & Sullivan some
> mirth, and to confuse people like you, who use dictionaries to replace
> hearing.

In that case, you misunderstood me, either deliberately (which I
suspect) or not. I am fully aware (from your other posts) that you
distinguish "or" and "awe" and would never have expected you to use
the "or" vowel in "off". I said that writers of eye-dialect used
"orf" - this is true, and more of a comment on the idiocies of
eye-dialect than actual pronunciation. I would prefer them to use
"awf", which the poster who started this thread in fact did. So I
think it should have been clear what I was talking about.

I only use dictionaries for obsolescent dialects.

Jonathan Jordan

unread,
Nov 19, 2001, 6:09:53 AM11/19/01
to

Alan Jones <a...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ST3K7.1193$1B4.2...@news1.cableinet.net...
It appears that a1a's version of RP does distinguish "or" and "aw" sounds in
some way, but I can't say that it's clear how. Your description sounds much
more like the real world though.

By the way, "orf" is a sheep disease, with symptoms confusable with Foot and
Mouth. I don't have cause to say it very often, but I would sound the /r/,
so it wouldn't sound like anyone's "off".

I find it curious that some speakers merge "often" and "orphan". For me
they are really quite different ([A.ft@n] and [O:rf@n]).

Jonathan


Joe Manfre

unread,
Nov 19, 2001, 8:47:43 AM11/19/01
to
Richard Fontana (rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu) wrote:

In my idiolect it's got the same stress pattern as "Monocacy",
more or less, and the Monocacy ain't nothing but a river in
Maryland. (And Pennsylvania.) Also "diplomacy".

True fact: This morning, for the first time in my life, I hear a
Britisher use the British pronunciation of "respite". I was really
fascinated by it, and after I got to the office I went to M-W's site
and found it listed as a usual British pronunciation. (I had never
heard a Britisher pronounce the word before, so far as I can recall,
and so I was not aware of the British pronunciation. It took me a
long time to find out about the hipper American pronunciation, the
one that doesn't sound like "despite", because "respite" is a word
that I rarely seem to hear anyone say out loud.)


JM

--
Joe Manfre, Hyattsville, Maryland.

Pat Durkin

unread,
Nov 19, 2001, 1:01:35 PM11/19/01
to

"Joe Manfre" <man...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:Xns915E5A30B...@130.133.1.4...

I hear "respite" (first pronunciation below, but with -pit ) used very
frequently nowadays in the U.S, at least in terms of relief for caregivers
in health care, tending to the aging, etc.
(Pronunciation: 'res-p&t also ri-'spIt, British usually 'res-"pIt per
m-w)


Alan Jones

unread,
Nov 19, 2001, 1:06:30 PM11/19/01
to

"Joe Manfre" <man...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:Xns915E5A30B...@130.133.1.4...
> ....This morning, for the first time in my life, I hear a

> Britisher use the British pronunciation of "respite". I was really
> fascinated by it, and after I got to the office I went to M-W's site
> and found it listed as a usual British pronunciation. (I had never
> heard a Britisher pronounce the word before, so far as I can recall,
> and so I was not aware of the British pronunciation. It took me a
> long time to find out about the hipper American pronunciation, the
> one that doesn't sound like "despite", because "respite" is a word
> that I rarely seem to hear anyone say out loud.)

Was the Brtiish version "RESpight" or "RESpit"? It isn't "resPITE", anyway,
at least not customarily.

Alan Jones


Joe Manfre

unread,
Nov 19, 2001, 1:15:02 PM11/19/01
to
Alan Jones (a...@blueyonder.co.uk) wrote:

> Was the Brtiish version "RESpight" or "RESpit"? It isn't "resPITE",
> anyway, at least not customarily.

The first one, "RESpight".

Joe Fineman

unread,
Nov 19, 2001, 5:53:44 PM11/19/01
to
Mark Barratt <mark.b...@chello.be> writes:

> It would be sufficient for your joke, true.

Not my joke, actually. I am only quoting it as I heard it. It is, of
course applicable to any pair of countries, states, professions,
etc. that may wish to engage in mutual snobbery.


--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com

||: Think of it as evolution in action. :||

Steve Hayes

unread,
Nov 19, 2001, 10:01:11 PM11/19/01
to
On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 07:48:57 +0100, Mark Barratt <mark.b...@chello.be>
wrote:

>On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 00:44:24 -0500, Richard Fontana
><rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Mark Barratt wrote:
>>
>>> Hegemony (English, American or other) is a topic worth discussing in
>>> its own right. Anyone for a new thread?
>>
>>Sure. What aspect of it are you interested in discussing? The
>>pronunciation?
>
>Hehe.
>
>No, I'd like to know if it's insulting.

Marxists use "hegemonic" a lot, and manage to make it sound insulting.

Mike Oliver

unread,
Nov 19, 2001, 10:03:55 PM11/19/01
to
Steve Hayes wrote:

> Marxists use "hegemonic" a lot, and manage to make it sound insulting.

OK, how do you stress that? Or "hegemon", for that matter? I
say / hE 'dZEm @ ,ni /, but would be tempted to say / 'hE dZ@ ,man /
or / 'hE dZ@ ,m@n /.

Earle Jones

unread,
Nov 20, 2001, 1:50:42 AM11/20/01
to
In article <m24hvt8ck23rq3fqc...@4ax.com>,
Mark Barratt <mark.b...@chello.be> wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 02:58:05 GMT, Joe Fineman <j...@TheWorld.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Mark Barratt <mark.b...@chello.be> writes:
> >
> >> On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:30:14 GMT, Joe Fineman <j...@TheWorld.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> ||: When a Scotsman moves to England, it raises the average of :||
> >> ||: intelligence in both countries.

*
I suspect that this joke (?) has very old roots. I first heard it when
the South Carolina Democratic senator Strom Thurmond decided to change
to the Republican Party. Dem. Senator Hubert Humphrey said it would be
a good change -- good for the country -- it would raise the IQ of both
parties.

About Humphrey, Republican senator Everett Dirksen said, "He can speak
at 90 miles per hour -- with gusts to 110."

earle
*

dcw

unread,
Nov 20, 2001, 4:05:00 AM11/20/01
to
In article <4SiJ7.46$_x4.1132@news2-hme0>,
Richard Chambers <dick.no_spam_p...@cwcom.net> wrote:

>Incidentally, all the towns ending in -cester (eg Worcester,
>Bicester), -caster (eg Lancaster), and -chester (eg Manchester, Chester)
>originated as Roman military camps. Their name derives from "castra", the
>Latin for camp.

Not necessarily. It seems that the Saxons adopted the word and applied it
to any Roman structures, including towns as well as camps.

David

Steve Hayes

unread,
Nov 20, 2001, 7:56:57 PM11/20/01
to

I don't know Ascii IPA, but I stress it on the third syllable (for Richard: my
"cot" vowel), with a slight stress on the first, and the vowel in the second
syllable is a schwa.

Mike Oliver

unread,
Nov 20, 2001, 8:18:05 PM11/20/01
to
Steve Hayes wrote:
>
> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:03:55 -0800, Mike Oliver <oli...@math.ucla.edu> wrote:
>> OK, how do you stress that? Or "hegemon", for that matter? I
>> say / hE 'dZEm @ ,ni /, but would be tempted to say / 'hE dZ@ ,man /
>> or / 'hE dZ@ ,m@n /.
>
> I don't know Ascii IPA, but I stress it on the third syllable (for Richard: my
> "cot" vowel), with a slight stress on the first, and the vowel in the second
> syllable is a schwa.

Which word? "hegemonic" or "hegemon"?

Mark Barratt

unread,
Nov 21, 2001, 2:48:52 AM11/21/01
to
On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:56:57 GMT, haye...@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes)
wrote:

>On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:03:55 -0800, Mike Oliver <oli...@math.ucla.edu> wrote:


>
>>Steve Hayes wrote:
>>
>>> Marxists use "hegemonic" a lot, and manage to make it sound insulting.
>>
>>OK, how do you stress that? Or "hegemon", for that matter? I
>>say / hE 'dZEm @ ,ni /, but would be tempted to say / 'hE dZ@ ,man /
>>or / 'hE dZ@ ,m@n /.
>
>I don't know Ascii IPA, but I stress it on the third syllable (for Richard: my
>"cot" vowel), with a slight stress on the first, and the vowel in the second
>syllable is a schwa.

You know, a better starting point than ASCII IPA for a lot of these
discussions, at least for those who have sound systems on their
computers (and who the **** doesn't have, these days?) might be the
audio files at Merriam-Webster's online dictionary site.

For anyone who needs step-by-step guidance, let's say that we go to
http://www.m-w.com/home.htm and type "hegemony" (without the quotation
marks) into the "dictionary" box and click on "look it up". The result
is the display of a screen which includes the following information:

"One entry found for hegemony.

Main Entry: he·ge·mo·ny < <"

Now, the symbols which I have represented by '<' above, actually look
like a stylised representation of a speaker emitting sound. They are
red. Do you see them? There are two of them because MW considers that
this word has two standard pronunciations.

Now, here comes the tricky bit. Click on one of those '<' thingumajigs
(remembering to cross your fingers and murmur a prayer to the pagan
deity of your choice first) and, with a great deal of luck, you should
hear a lady of the American persuasion actually *say* "hegemony" (or
'heggemony' if you picked the other one).

Further down the same page, you can find a '<' for "hegemonic".

If this fails to work for you, speak to Bill Gates before you contact
me.

Now, who was disagreeing about which pronunciation?

Spehro Pefhany

unread,
Nov 21, 2001, 2:58:43 AM11/21/01
to
The renowned Mark Barratt <mark.b...@chello.be> wrote:

> You know, a better starting point than ASCII IPA for a lot of these
> discussions, at least for those who have sound systems on their
> computers (and who the **** doesn't have, these days?) might be the
> audio files at Merriam-Webster's online dictionary site.

The audio pronounciation files at http://bartleby.com work better on my
system, for whatever reason or reasons.

Best regards,
--
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
/.-.\
(( * ))
\\ // Please help if you can:
\\\ http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
//\\\
/// \\\
\/ \/

Steve Hayes

unread,
Nov 21, 2001, 5:47:07 AM11/21/01
to

Hegemomic.

I'm not familiar with the word "hegemon", and it's not in my English
dictionary. If you mean "hegumen", as in the abbot or abbess of a monastery, I
pronounce it ee-GOO-men.

Steve Hayes

unread,
Nov 21, 2001, 1:39:21 PM11/21/01
to
On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 08:48:52 +0100, Mark Barratt <mark.b...@chello.be>
wrote:

>On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:56:57 GMT, haye...@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes)


>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:03:55 -0800, Mike Oliver <oli...@math.ucla.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>
>>>> Marxists use "hegemonic" a lot, and manage to make it sound insulting.
>>>
>>>OK, how do you stress that? Or "hegemon", for that matter? I
>>>say / hE 'dZEm @ ,ni /, but would be tempted to say / 'hE dZ@ ,man /
>>>or / 'hE dZ@ ,m@n /.
>>
>>I don't know Ascii IPA, but I stress it on the third syllable (for Richard: my
>>"cot" vowel), with a slight stress on the first, and the vowel in the second
>>syllable is a schwa.
>
>You know, a better starting point than ASCII IPA for a lot of these
>discussions, at least for those who have sound systems on their
>computers (and who the **** doesn't have, these days?) might be the
>audio files at Merriam-Webster's online dictionary site.

Nice for those who can afford it; our phone rates are increasing by 80% next
year.

Besides, remembering to note the address, and then to actually go and look at
it next time I'm on line, is a bit a a schlepp. Even if I do make a note of
those addresses, I don't usually remember to look at them until I'm off line
again.

Finally, the guy was asking how I pronounced it, not how somebody's online
dictionary did. I realise you were making a general comment about such
discussions, and not just this particular one. I do have a CD of Microsoft
Bookshelf that gives pronouncation for some words, but looking for that is
almost as much of a schlepp as looking for a URL that I put somewhere to look
at some time.

Mike Oliver

unread,
Nov 21, 2001, 1:40:58 PM11/21/01
to
Steve Hayes wrote:

> I'm not familiar with the word "hegemon", and it's not in my English
> dictionary.

It doesn't seem to be in m-w either, which is odd. It's definitely
a word, one that's been getting a fair amount of use lately. It
refers to the person or power that holds hegemony. But I'm not
quite sure how to pronounce it; I've only read it. My strong
guess would be / hE 'dZE m@n / .

Richard Fontana

unread,
Nov 21, 2001, 2:09:56 PM11/21/01
to

It's in AHD/ol, with one pronunciation: /'hEdZ @ ,mAn/, where /A/ is the
vowel of "cot". It looks like it was probably imported from Ancient Greek
(hegemon = 'leader') in recent times, long after "hegemony" entered the
language.

Pat Durkin

unread,
Nov 21, 2001, 3:33:49 PM11/21/01
to

"Spehro Pefhany" <sp...@interlog.com> wrote in message
news:T8JK7.223688$YL3.70...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...

> The renowned Mark Barratt <mark.b...@chello.be> wrote:
>
> > You know, a better starting point than ASCII IPA for a lot of these
> > discussions, at least for those who have sound systems on their
> > computers (and who the **** doesn't have, these days?) might be the
> > audio files at Merriam-Webster's online dictionary site.
>
> The audio pronounciation files at http://bartleby.com work better on my
> system, for whatever reason or reasons.
>

Can't find the sound symbol at the definitions, don't see any reference to a
sound index. (or audio, for that matter). Help?

Spehro Pefhany

unread,
Nov 21, 2001, 3:53:39 PM11/21/01
to
The renowned Pat Durkin <durk...@nothome.com> wrote:

> Can't find the sound symbol at the definitions, don't see any reference to a
> sound index. (or audio, for that matter). Help?

Are you on this page?

http://www.bartleby.com/61/51/H0125100.html

The little speaker icon to the right of the word "PRONOUNCIATION" is a
hyperlink to a .wav format sound file. In this case, it is:

http://www.bartleby.com/61/wavs/51/H0125100.wav

The dictionary on that site has pronounciation files, the encylopedia
doesn't.

Pat Durkin

unread,
Nov 21, 2001, 5:50:38 PM11/21/01
to

"Spehro Pefhany" <sp...@interlog.com> wrote in message
news:nvUK7.226470$YL3.71...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...

> The renowned Pat Durkin <durk...@nothome.com> wrote:
>
> > Can't find the sound symbol at the definitions, don't see any reference
to a
> > sound index. (or audio, for that matter). Help?
>
> Are you on this page?
>
> http://www.bartleby.com/61/51/H0125100.html
>
> The little speaker icon to the right of the word "PRONOUNCIATION" is a
> hyperlink to a .wav format sound file. In this case, it is:
>
> http://www.bartleby.com/61/wavs/51/H0125100.wav
>
> The dictionary on that site has pronounciation files, the encylopedia
> doesn't.

Got it, Thanks. AAAAACK< I don't think I even tried the Dictionary tab.

It took a much longer time to load, and brought up the Windows Media Player.
M-W has its own sound player, I guess, just a bitty IE window, or maybe it's
a Netscape window, also.

Otherwise, I had no problem with the Bartleby sound either. (slowness may
have been the server).

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