Common word translated into English becomes esoteric term
M. Ranjit Mathews
> indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi?
> indiayude ethramathe pm anu MANMOHAN SINGH?
> Can you translate these from Malayalam to English?
> ammu
Nalla prasnam, Ammu:-)
It was on Diwali 2006 (Oct 21) that I was last asked this poser about
the (lack of) expressiveness of English. A precise translation would
use the esoteric term "ordinal rank". Following your convention of
writing stressed words in capitals:
What was the ordinal rank of Indira Gandhi's Prime Ministership of
India?
Of what ordinal rank is MANMOHAN SINGH'S Prime Ministership of India?
http://www.answers.com/topic/ordinal
http://developer.apple.com/documentation/OpenSource/Conceptual/ShellScripting/AnExtremeExample/chapter_951_section_3.html
Brian M. Scott
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote in
<news:1168830332.4...@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>
in
soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.kerala,alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
> On Sunday 14 January 2007 05:39, Ammu wrote:
>> indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi?
>> indiayude ethramathe pm anu MANMOHAN SINGH?
>> Can you translate these from Malayalam to English?
>> ammu
> Nalla prasnam, Ammu:-)
> It was on Diwali 2006 (Oct 21) that I was last asked this poser about
> the (lack of) expressiveness of English. A precise translation would
> use the esoteric term "ordinal rank".
Not esoteric: technical.
> Following your convention of
> writing stressed words in capitals:
> What was the ordinal rank of Indira Gandhi's Prime
> Ministership of India?
Though understandable, this is altogether unidiomatic.
Either of the following would be okay:
Which Prime Minister of India was Indira Gandhi?
Indira Gandhi was which Prime Minister of India?
In either case you can add a tag question like 'Which
number?', 'Fifth? Tenth?', or the like. If you want to be
more formal:
Indira Gandhi was which Prime Minister of India
in order of succession?
I might conceivably ask 'Where does Indira Gandhi fall in
the sequence of Prime Ministers of India?', but that's
probably influenced by my mathematical background.
(Bit of a trick question in her case, though, since the
answer seems to be '5th and 8th'.)
Brian
Peter T. Daniels
Or, considerably more simply, "What number Prime Minister was Indira
Gandhi?"
(The answer to "Which PM ..." could be, "Hunh? There's only one PM at a
time!")
Don Phillipson
news:1168830332.4...@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> On Sunday 14 January 2007 05:39, Ammu wrote:
> > indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi?
. . .
> It was on Diwali 2006 (Oct 21) that I was last asked this poser about
> the (lack of) expressiveness of English. A precise translation would
> use the esoteric term "ordinal rank". Following your convention of
> writing stressed words in capitals:
>
> What was the ordinal rank of Indira Gandhi's Prime Ministership of
> India?
The translation seems more exotic (foreign) than esoteric
(highly abstract, high-falutin.) It was noticed long ago that
English has no standard word to ask "what is the ordinal
rank of?" or "how manyeth?" and some other languages
have such a word. But it is notoriously rare in Europe cf.
> http://www.answers.com/topic/ordinal
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
<news:1168866672....@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>
in
soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.kerala,alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> Not esoteric: technical.
I didn't offer it because I find it only marginally
acceptable.
[...]
Brian
Paul J Kriha
news:1vvj6ke20jyd$.ljo5c4pvv5s5.dlg@40tude.net...
I tried "What number prime minister is our current prime minister?"
on a group of about six thirteen-year-olds. They all answered
in unison: "She is numero uno!" and refused to accept that
that wasn't what I asked. :-)
English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists
in many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?)
other Germanic ones.
pjk
> [...]
>
> Brian
Peter T. Daniels
??
How is "numero uno." presumably meaning 'the best one we've got', an
answer to "what number"?
Everyone knows that Washington is number one, and can probably do the
first five or six; most people know that Lincoln is number 16, and
everyone knows that the current moron is 43, because that's how he's
distinguished from the nonentity who was 41 (because they're not Senior
and Junior).
M. Ranjit Mathews
> Paul J Kriha wrote:
> >
> > I tried "What number prime minister is our current prime minister?"
> > on a group of about six thirteen-year-olds. They all answered
> > in unison: "She is numero uno!" and refused to accept that
> > that wasn't what I asked. :-)
Ha ha!
> > English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists
> > in many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?)
> > other Germanic ones.
>
> How is "numero uno." presumably meaning 'the best one we've got', an
> answer to "what number"?
They didn't understand it as ordinal rank; that's what's funny about
it.
> Everyone knows that Washington is number one, and can probably do the
> first five or six; most people know that Lincoln is number 16, and
> everyone knows that the current moron is 43, because that's how he's
> distinguished from the nonentity who was 41 (because they're not Senior
> and Junior).
Moron I & Moron II would be Moroni and Moroneux (with the [I] vowel and
deux vowel, respectively:-)
Wayne Brown
> I tried "What number prime minister is our current prime
> minister?"on a group of about six thirteen-year-olds. They all
> answered in unison: "She is numero uno!" and refused to accept
> that that wasn't what I asked. :-)
>
> English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which
> exists in many other European languages, including AFAIK
> (some/all?) other Germanic ones.
This, in my opinion, is a case where a speaker of one language
with a particular feature feels a lack in a foreign language
without it. In this context, "how many" does just fine, I
believe, for native speakers of English: "How many presidents
has the United States had before George W. Bush?" "Forty-two."
"George W. Bush is the 43rd president of the United States."
Admittedly, those who become familiar with a highly inflected
language enjoy observing the freedom of word order and other
features of that language which express fine subtleties,
especially in the works of talented native writers and poets.
English, however, even without "George W. Bush is the how
manyeth president of the United States?" has done spendidly in
expressing every though that comes to man, as the league of
giants of English literature have demonstrated to the whole
world.
Regards, ----- WB.
Brian M. Scott
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote in
<news:1168958928.5...@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
in
soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.kerala,alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> Paul J Kriha wrote:
>>> I tried "What number prime minister is our current prime minister?"
>>> on a group of about six thirteen-year-olds. They all answered
>>> in unison: "She is numero uno!" and refused to accept that
>>> that wasn't what I asked. :-)
> Ha ha!
>>> English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists
>>> in many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?)
>>> other Germanic ones.
>> How is "numero uno." presumably meaning 'the best one we've got', an
>> answer to "what number"?
> They didn't understand it as ordinal rank; that's what's funny about
> it.
You're mistaken. They understood it as ordinal rank on a
different scale, ranking by quality rather than by date.
>> Everyone knows that Washington is number one,
Virtually everyone, yes.
>> and can probably do the first five or six;
Very doubtful. A fair number could probably produce a list
of five or six that had a large intersection with the first
five or six, but getting them in the right order is another
matter.
>> most people know that Lincoln is number 16,
Many; I'd not bet on 'most' at all, at all.
>> and everyone knows that the current moron is 43, because
>> that's how he's distinguished from the nonentity who was
>> 41 (because they're not Senior and Junior).
Not everyone, no.
[...]
Brian
M. Ranjit Mathews
> On 16 Jan 2007 06:48:49 -0800, "M. Ranjit Mathews"
> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> >> Paul J Kriha wrote:
> >> How is "numero uno." presumably meaning 'the best one we've got', an
> >> answer to "what number"?
> > They didn't understand it as ordinal rank; that's what's funny about
> > it.
> You're mistaken. They understood it as ordinal rank on a
> different scale, ranking by quality rather than by date.
Come to think of it, using Ordinal Rank on someone who knows the term
might produce the same response. Perhaps Ordinal Rank wasn't such a
good idea; Ordinal Number seems more difficult to understand that as a
rank by performance.
M. Ranjit Mathews
> On 16 Jan 2007 06:48:49 -0800, "M. Ranjit Mathews"
> > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> Paul J Kriha wrote:
> >> How is "numero uno." presumably meaning 'the best one we've got', an
> >> answer to "what number"?
> > They didn't understand it as ordinal rank; that's what's funny about
> > it.
> You're mistaken. They understood it as ordinal rank on a
> different scale, ranking by quality rather than by date.
Come to think of it, using Ordinal Rank on someone who knows the term
might produce the same response. Perhaps Ordinal Rank wasn't such a
good idea; Ordinal Number seems more difficult to understand as a rank
by performance.
There's some documentation for computer programs, that use ordinality
and sequence number interchangably but set theoreticians would grimace
at such usage.
All in all, how manyeth or whateth seem better suited to the English
speaking masses, than technical terms like Ordinal. In French, ordinal
might be a more ordinary term, judging by the fact that a computer is
called an ordinateur.
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
> English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists
> in many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?)
> other Germanic ones.
Initially, "how manyeth" seemed odd. On reflection, the Tamil and
Malayalam terms translate well into "how manyeth", so it all of a
sudden doesn't seem odd.
Spoken Tamil:
[etna]= how many
[etnAvadu]= how manyeth
Spoken Malayalam:
[etra]= how many
[etrAmatte]= how manyeth
How is it currently done in a Germanic language? (I can't use a
translator to find out 'coz there's no way to word it in English)
Michael Kuettner
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:1168966896.6...@11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com...
"Der wievielte Premierminister war M. Thatcher ?"
(The how manyeth PM was MT ?)
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
John Kane
The problem about assigning numbers to a PM is that you get caught in
the trap that the PM may have been in office several times that the
position becomes a bit meaningless as opposed to say a presidential
system like Mexico which seems to only allow one term or like the USA
which seems to only allow one or two consecutive terms.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada
Brian M. Scott
<jrkr...@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:1168975072.8...@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
in
soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.kerala,alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
[...]
> The problem about assigning numbers to a PM is that you get caught in
> the trap that the PM may have been in office several times that the
> position becomes a bit meaningless as opposed to say a presidential
> system like Mexico which seems to only allow one term or like the USA
> which seems to only allow one or two consecutive terms.
Franklin D. Roosevelt was elected to four terms and served
three and a bit before he died, but the 22nd amendment,
effective from 1951, now limits one to a maximum of two
terms. They needn't be consecutive, though I believe that
Grover Cleveland is the only person to have served
non-consecutive terms.
Brian
Peter T. Daniels
Brian M. Scott wrote:
> > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> Everyone knows that Washington is number one,
>
> Virtually everyone, yes.
>
> >> and can probably do the first five or six;
>
> Very doubtful. A fair number could probably produce a list
> of five or six that had a large intersection with the first
> five or six, but getting them in the right order is another
> matter.
Except in Chicago, don't street names usually go in order?
Peter T. Daniels
The Constitution was amended in the early 1950s to prohibit anyone
being elected president more than twice. (This was a Republican
measure, and they really screwed themselves because both Eisenhower and
Reagan would easily have been elected to a third term.)
Oliver Cromm
Is there any country besides the US that cares about the ordinal number
of their heads of state after #1?
[crossposting reduced, F'up2 aue set]
--
Bill Gates working as a waiter:
- Waiter, there's a fly in my soup
- Try again, maybe it won't be there this time
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
<news:1168988179.3...@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>
in
soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.kerala,alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
>> Virtually everyone, yes.
Like Lakeside, St. Clair, Superior, Payne, Chester, Euclid,
Prospect, Carnegie, Cedar, Central, Community College,
Woodland? Or Lee, Coventry, South Taylor, Warrensville
Center, Green, Richmond, Brainard, Lander, S.O.M. Center?
Or Mayfield, Cedar, Fairmount, Shaker?
Brian
the Omrud
> * Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > Brian M. Scott wrote:
> >>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> >>>> Everyone knows that Washington is number one,
> >>
> >> Virtually everyone, yes.
> >>
> >>>> and can probably do the first five or six;
> >>
> >> Very doubtful. A fair number could probably produce a list
> >> of five or six that had a large intersection with the first
> >> five or six, but getting them in the right order is another
> >> matter.
> >
> > Except in Chicago, don't street names usually go in order?
>
> Is there any country besides the US that cares about the ordinal number
> of their heads of state after #1?
All monarchies do, for heads with the same forename.
--
David
=====
Peter T. Daniels
Oliver Cromm wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > Brian M. Scott wrote:
> >>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> >>>> Everyone knows that Washington is number one,
> >>
> >> Virtually everyone, yes.
> >>
> >>>> and can probably do the first five or six;
> >>
> >> Very doubtful. A fair number could probably produce a list
> >> of five or six that had a large intersection with the first
> >> five or six, but getting them in the right order is another
> >> matter.
> >
> > Except in Chicago, don't street names usually go in order?
>
> Is there any country besides the US that cares about the ordinal number
> of their heads of state after #1?
Would there be mnemonic poems for remembering the kings and queens of
England if not?
Are schoolchildren in other "nations" not expected to know the names
and order of their rulers?
> [crossposting reduced, F'up2 aue set]
[repaired]
Peter T. Daniels
I don't see a single president's name in any of your three lists, so I
can't imagine what you think you're trying to prove.
R H Draney
>
>I tried "What number prime minister is our current prime minister?"
>on a group of about six thirteen-year-olds. They all answered
>in unison: "She is numero uno!" and refused to accept that
>that wasn't what I asked. :-)
This is quite obviously wrong...she's a *prime* minister, and "one" is by
definition not a prime number....r
--
"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when
he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely.
Mark Brader
>> The problem about assigning numbers to a PM is that you get caught in
>> the trap that the PM may have been in office several times that the
>> position becomes a bit meaningless as opposed to say a presidential
>> system like Mexico which seems to only allow one term or like the USA
>> which seems to only allow one or two consecutive terms.
In Canada we don't usually refer to prime ministers by sequence number,
but when it is done, we count people, not terms. So far we've had (in
order) Macdonald, Mackenzie, Macdonald again, Abbott, Thompson, Bowell,
Tupper, Laurier, Borden, Meighen, King, Meighen, King again, Bennett,
King again, Laurent, Diefenbaker, Pearson, Trudeau, Clark, Trudeau again,
Turner, Mulroney, Campbell, Chretien, Martin, and Harper, and Harper is
counted as the 22nd.
Brian Scott:
> Franklin D. Roosevelt was elected to four terms and served three
> and a bit before he died, but the 22nd amendment, effective from
> 1951, now limits one to a maximum of two terms. They needn't be
> consecutive, though I believe that Grover Cleveland is the only
> person to have served non-consecutive terms.
Correct. The US state department has declared an official numbering
in which Cleveland counts twice and the other multi-term presidents
once again; in other words, each change of president increments the
count.
There are, of course, still other possibilities. One could count
elections; one could count both elections and changes of leader
between elections.
Followups directed, somewhat arbitrarily, to alt.usage.english.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Pleasant dreams!"
m...@vex.net | "I'll dream of Canada." -- THE SUSPECT
My text in this article is in the public domain.
or www.mantra.com/jai
in a number of respects. When it comes to asking
questions of the type being discussed in this thread,
I simply ask, for instance:
Example 1:
George W. Bush is the 43rd president of the US, who was the fifth?
Example 2:
George W. Bush is the 43rd president of the US, what about George Washington?
Example 3:
Who were the third and seventh presidents of the US?
Such is Munglish.
Jai Maharaj
http://tinyurl.com/yhjyp5
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
In article <eog18a$eo3$1...@theodyn.ncf.ca>,
"Don Phillipson" <d.phillips...@ncf.com> posted:
> > On Sunday 14 January 2007 05:39, Ammu wrote:
> > > indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi?
> .. . .
Oleg Lego
>John Kane:
>>> The problem about assigning numbers to a PM is that you get caught in
>>> the trap that the PM may have been in office several times that the
>>> position becomes a bit meaningless as opposed to say a presidential
>>> system like Mexico which seems to only allow one term or like the USA
>>> which seems to only allow one or two consecutive terms.
Two terms, I think, and nothing is specified as to consecutive or not.
>In Canada we don't usually refer to prime ministers by sequence number,
>but when it is done, we count people, not terms. So far we've had (in
>order) Macdonald, Mackenzie, Macdonald again, Abbott, Thompson, Bowell,
>Tupper, Laurier, Borden, Meighen, King, Meighen, King again, Bennett,
>King again, Laurent, Diefenbaker, Pearson, Trudeau, Clark, Trudeau again,
>Turner, Mulroney, Campbell, Chretien, Martin, and Harper, and Harper is
>counted as the 22nd.
Interesting. I gather you refer to Louis St-Laurent. If asked, I would
have said his last name was St-Laurent, not just Laurent.
Is this a French vs. English thing?
CDB
> The Mark Brader entity posted thusly:
>
>> John Kane:
>>>> The problem about assigning numbers to a PM is that you get
>>>> caught in the trap that the PM may have been in office several
>> In Canada we don't usually refer to prime ministers by sequence
>> number, but when it is done, we count people, not terms. So far
>> we've had (in order) Macdonald, [...] King again, Laurent,
>> Diefenbaker,
>> [...] and Harper is counted as the 22nd.
>
> Interesting. I gather you refer to Louis St-Laurent. If asked, I
> would have said his last name was St-Laurent, not just Laurent.
>
> Is this a French vs. English thing?
Nah. Yeah. Probably. The English should be like the French:
"Saint-Laurent", but billions and billions of hits say otherwise. If
you look for official websites, though, like the government and the
CBC, they spell it the way l'oncle Louis would have wanted.
pea...@aol.com
called "Petralthan Pillaiya?" A friend wanted to know what the title
meant in English! We were at a loss to come up with a translation...
Is there an easy, simple translation?!
- gsn
Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On 14 Jan 2007 19:05:32 -0800, "M. Ranjit Mathews"
> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> <news:1168830332.4...@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>
> in
> soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.kerala,alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
>
> > On Sunday 14 January 2007 05:39, Ammu wrote:
>
> >> indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi?
> >> indiayude ethramathe pm anu MANMOHAN SINGH?
> >> Can you translate these from Malayalam to English?
> >> ammu
>
> > Nalla prasnam, Ammu:-)
> > It was on Diwali 2006 (Oct 21) that I was last asked this poser about
> > the (lack of) expressiveness of English. A precise translation would
> > use the esoteric term "ordinal rank".
>
> Not esoteric: technical.
>
> > Following your convention of
> > writing stressed words in capitals:
>
> > What was the ordinal rank of Indira Gandhi's Prime
> > Ministership of India?
>
> Though understandable, this is altogether unidiomatic.
> Either of the following would be okay:
>
> Which Prime Minister of India was Indira Gandhi?
> Indira Gandhi was which Prime Minister of India?
>
> In either case you can add a tag question like 'Which
> number?', 'Fifth? Tenth?', or the like. If you want to be
> more formal:
>
> Indira Gandhi was which Prime Minister of India
> in order of succession?
>
> I might conceivably ask 'Where does Indira Gandhi fall in
> the sequence of Prime Ministers of India?', but that's
> probably influenced by my mathematical background.
>
> (Bit of a trick question in her case, though, since the
> answer seems to be '5th and 8th'.)
>
> Brian
jo...@phred.org
rat@atatatat..com says...
> The Mark Brader entity posted thusly:
>
> >John Kane:
> >>> The problem about assigning numbers to a PM is that you get caught in
> >>> the trap that the PM may have been in office several times that the
> >>> position becomes a bit meaningless as opposed to say a presidential
> >>> system like Mexico which seems to only allow one term or like the USA
> >>> which seems to only allow one or two consecutive terms.
>
> Two terms, I think, and nothing is specified as to consecutive or not.
Getting very technical, no person may be *elected* president more than
twice, and a person who has served more than two years of another
president's unexpired term may be elected only once.
So it is technically possible for a person to serve more than two terms
as President, but not by election, only by succession. It seems
extremely unlikely for any former President to regain the office through
succession -- to do so would require holding a lower office after
leaving the Presidency, e.g. Vice President.
--
jo...@phred.org is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>
Peter Moylan
>>>>> On Sunday 14 January 2007 05:39, Ammu wrote:
>>>>>> indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi?
>>>>>> indiayude ethramathe pm anu MANMOHAN SINGH?
>>>>>> Can you translate these from Malayalam to English?
>>>>>> ammu
> English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists in
> many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?) other
> Germanic ones.
The only times I've ever needed such a word are when someone like Ammu
asks a question like the above. On a list of what we need, a word like
this comes a long way behind world peace or softer toilet paper.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet
address could disappear at any time.
Peter Moylan
> Are schoolchildren in other "nations" not expected to know the names
> and order of their rulers?
Australian children learn the name of our first Prime Minister after
federation. Once they leave school they forget it again.
They're only politicians, after all. Some of them have had a major
impact on the world (Adolf Hitler comes to mind), but most are
insignificant when compared with, for example, Nobel Laureates in Physics.
Our present leader will be remembered mostly for screwing up the economy
and for getting us bogged down in the Iraq quagmire. I suspect that his
shade will breathe a sigh of relief when people finally forget his name.
or www.mantra.com/jai
Peter Moylan <pe...@ozebelgDieSpammers.org> posted:
> Paul J Kriha wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Sunday 14 January 2007 05:39, Ammu wrote:
> >>>>>> indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi?
> >>>>>> indiayude ethramathe pm anu MANMOHAN SINGH?
> >>>>>> Can you translate these from Malayalam to English?
> >>>>>> ammu
>
> > English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists in
> > many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?) other
> > Germanic ones.
> The only times I've ever needed such a word are when someone like Ammu
> asks a question like the above. On a list of what we need, a word like
> this comes a long way behind world peace or softer toilet paper.
World peace, if you mean the absence of conflicts
and fighting, is a nice objective but is not possible
in the Kalyug*. And as far as toilet paper is concerned,
so you prefer it to washing?
*The Kalyug
All kings occupying the Earth in the Kaliyug will be
wanting in tranquility, strong in anger, taking pleasure at
all times in lying and dishonesty, inflicting death on
women, children and cows, prone to take the paltry
possessions of others, with character that is mostly Tamas,
rising to power and soon falling. They will be short-lived,
ambitious, of little virtue and greedy. People will follow
the customs of others and be adulterated with them;
peculiar, undisciplined barbarians will be vigorously
supported by the rulers. Because they go on living with
perversion, they will be ruined. The destruction of the
world will occur because of the departure from virtue and
profit, little by little, day by day. Money alone will
confer nobility. Power will be the sole definition of
virtue. Pleasure will be the only reason for marriage. Lust
will be the only reason for womanhood. Falsehood will win
out in disputes. Being dry of water will be the only
definition of land. The sacred thread alone will
distinguish Brahmins. Praiseworthiness will be measured by
accumulated wealth. Wearing the Linga will be sufficient
cause for religious retreat. Impropriety will be considered
good conduct, and only feebleness will be the reason for
unemployment. Boldness and arrogance will become equivalent
to scholarship. Only those without wealth will show
honesty. Just a bath will amount to purification, and
charity will be the only virtue. Abduction will be
marriage. Simply to be well-dressed will signify
propriety. And any water hard to reach will be deemed a
pilgrimage site. The pretense of greatness will be the
proof of it, and powerful men with many severe faults will
rule over all the classes on earth. Oppressed by their
excessively greedy rulers, people will hide in valleys
between mountains where they will gather honey, vegetables,
roots, fruits, flowers and so forth. Suffering from cold,
wind, heat and rain, they will put on clothes made of tree-
bark and leaves. And no one will live as long as twenty-
three years. Thus in the Kaliyug, humankind will be utterly
destroyed.
Excerpt from a translation of the Vishnu Puraan by Cornelia
Dimmitt and J.A.B.van Buitenen.
Paul J Kriha
news:1168956966....@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Paul J Kriha wrote:
> > Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
> > news:1vvj6ke20jyd$.ljo5c4pvv5s5.dlg@40tude.net...
> > > <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
> > > <news:1168866672....@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>
> > > in
> > > soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.kerala,alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
> > > > Brian M. Scott wrote:
> > > >> On 14 Jan 2007 19:05:32 -0800, "M. Ranjit Mathews"
> > > >> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> > > >> <news:1168830332.4...@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>
> > > >> in
> > > >> soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.kerala,alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
> > >
> > >
> > > >>>> indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi?
> > > >>>> indiayude ethramathe pm anu MANMOHAN SINGH?
> > > >>>> Can you translate these from Malayalam to English?
> > > >>>> ammu
> > >
> > > >>> It was on Diwali 2006 (Oct 21) that I was last asked this poser about
> > > >>> the (lack of) expressiveness of English. A precise translation would
> > > >>> use the esoteric term "ordinal rank".
> > >
> > > >> Not esoteric: technical.
> > >
> > > >>> Following your convention of
> > > >>> writing stressed words in capitals:
> > >
> > > >>> What was the ordinal rank of Indira Gandhi's Prime
> > > >>> Ministership of India?
> > >
> > > >> Though understandable, this is altogether unidiomatic.
> > > >> Either of the following would be okay:
> > >
> > > >> Which Prime Minister of India was Indira Gandhi?
> > > >> Indira Gandhi was which Prime Minister of India?
> > >
> > > >> In either case you can add a tag question like 'Which
> > > >> number?', 'Fifth? Tenth?', or the like. If you want to be
> > > >> more formal:
> > >
> > > >> Indira Gandhi was which Prime Minister of India
> > > >> in order of succession?
> > >
> > > >> I might conceivably ask 'Where does Indira Gandhi fall in
> > > >> the sequence of Prime Ministers of India?', but that's
> > > >> probably influenced by my mathematical background.
> > >
> > > >> (Bit of a trick question in her case, though, since the
> > > >> answer seems to be '5th and 8th'.)
> > >
> > > > was Indira Gandhi?"
> > >
> > > I didn't offer it because I find it only marginally
> > > acceptable.
> >
> > on a group of about six thirteen-year-olds. They all answered
> > in unison: "She is numero uno!" and refused to accept that
> > that wasn't what I asked. :-)
> >
> > in many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?)
> > other Germanic ones.
>
>
> How is "numero uno." presumably meaning 'the best one we've got', an
> answer to "what number"?
Well, yeah. But as I said, they refused to accept that that
wasn't what I asked. As far as they were concerned, the
answer to "what number?" was "number one" or "number two"
or something like that.
> Everyone knows that Washington is number one, and can probably do the
> first five or six; most people know that Lincoln is number 16, and
> everyone knows that the current moron is 43, because that's how he's
> distinguished from the nonentity who was 41 (because they're not Senior
> and Junior).
Everyone in your country perhaps. I suspect that none of those
six in the street would have even known which country had
anybody by that name serving in any place of importance.
pjk
Paul J Kriha
news:1168966896.6...@11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com...
> Paul J Kriha wrote:
> > English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists
> > in many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?)
> > other Germanic ones.
>
> Initially, "how manyeth" seemed odd. On reflection, the Tamil and
> Malayalam terms translate well into "how manyeth", so it all of a
> sudden doesn't seem odd.
But of course. There are many languages in which the equivalent
of "howmanyeth" is a quite frequently used common word which
(unlike the English "ordinal" or "rank") everybody learns to use
in their early childhood.
> Spoken Tamil:
> [etna]= how many
> [etnAvadu]= how manyeth
>
> Spoken Malayalam:
> [etra]= how many
> [etrAmatte]= how manyeth
>
> How is it currently done in a Germanic language? (I can't use a
> translator to find out 'coz there's no way to word it in English)
Ha ha!
Try to use Tamil-to-German translator.
pjk
Paul J Kriha
> > English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists
> > in many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?)
> > other Germanic ones.
>
> Initially, "how manyeth" seemed odd. On reflection, the Tamil and
> Malayalam terms translate well into "how manyeth", so it all of a
> sudden doesn't seem odd.
But of course. There are many languages in which the equivalent
of "howmanyeth" is a quite frequently used common word which
(unlike the English "ordinal" or "rank") everybody learns to use
in their early childhood.
> Spoken Tamil:
> [etna]= how many
> [etnAvadu]= how manyeth
>
> Spoken Malayalam:
> [etra]= how many
> [etrAmatte]= how manyeth
>
> How is it currently done in a Germanic language? (I can't use a
> translator to find out 'coz there's no way to word it in English)
Ha ha!
You must try direct Tamil-to-German translator. :-)
You should get something like "wiefielte" which means
exactly "how manyeth".
pjk
Paul J Kriha
Very much so. :-(
Some of the early kings and princes were quite likely to have
been crowned and deposed several times in their life.
However, I don't think they are commonly memorized together
with their ordinal numbers. There is always the risk of some new
discovery adding or removing one of the ruling periods in the
more distant history.
Some countries keep careful track of the ordinal numbers
of their republics though.
pjk
Paul J Kriha
news:45adbeb8$0$5749$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Paul J Kriha wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Sunday 14 January 2007 05:39, Ammu wrote:
> >>>>>> indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi?
> >>>>>> indiayude ethramathe pm anu MANMOHAN SINGH?
> >>>>>> Can you translate these from Malayalam to English?
> >>>>>> ammu
>
> > English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists in
> > many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?) other
> > Germanic ones.
>
> The only times I've ever needed such a word are when someone like Ammu
> asks a question like the above. On a list of what we need, a word like
> this comes a long way behind world peace or softer toilet paper.
True, English largely circumvents the need for "how manyeth" with
phrases like "which date is it today?"
pjk
Peter Duncanson
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
One of the housemates in the cuurent Celebrity Big Brother show (UK)
when asked the quiz question "Who was Winston Churchill - a rapper,
US President, the Prime Minister or King?", answered "Wasn't he the
first black president of America? There's a statue of him near me -
that's black........
>> [crossposting reduced, F'up2 aue set]
>
>[repaired]
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter T. Daniels
":What's today's date?"
("Which day is it today?" is how you ask if it's Wednesday.)
Peter T. Daniels
pea...@aol.com wrote:
> Reminds me of my childhood in India when we went to see a Tamil movie
> called "Petralthan Pillaiya?" A friend wanted to know what the title
> meant in English! We were at a loss to come up with a translation...
> Is there an easy, simple translation?!
Maybe; what's the difficult, complicated translation?
M. Ranjit Mathews
> Reminds me of my childhood in India when we went to see a Tamil movie
> called "Petralthan Pillaiya?" A friend wanted to know what the title
> meant in English! We were at a loss to come up with a translation...
> Is there an easy, simple translation?!
[pet.ra] (adj) = that which is given birth to
[Al.] = person
[t[An] = only
[pil.l.E_]* = child
[j] = epenthetic semivowel
[A] = question marker
<?> Not strictly necessary since [A] indicates a question
Literally, it means "Is only a person given birth to a child?"
but would tend to imply:
Can only one's own issue be regarded as one's child?
* <aI> is morpheme-terminally pronounced as retracted [E] like in
French chaise.
Mike Lyle
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1168990760.6...@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Oliver Cromm wrote:
> > Is there any country besides the US that cares about the ordinal
number
> > of their heads of state after #1?
>
> Would there be mnemonic poems for remembering the kings and queens of
> England if not?
Which raises the question whether the "Willie, Willie, Harry, Ste. . ."
thing was taught as a useful framework on which to hang some history, or
as though it was in some way significant in itself.
--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Oliver Cromm
> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:1168966896.6...@11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com...
>> Paul J Kriha wrote:
>>> English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists
>>> in many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?)
>>> other Germanic ones.
>>
>> How is it currently done in a Germanic language? (I can't use a
>> translator to find out 'coz there's no way to word it in English)
>>
> In German it's
> "Der wievielte Premierminister war M. Thatcher ?"
> (The how manyeth PM was MT ?)
Maybe "howmanyeth" just happens to be missing from English because a
single word meaning "how many" (German "wieviel") is missing and the -th
suffix doesn't lend itself to attaching it to a group of words (unlike,
e.g., 's)?
[Crossposting reduced]
--
Bug: An elusive creature living in a program that makes it incorrect.
The activity of "debugging," or removing bugs from a program, ends
when people get tired of doing it, not when the bugs are removed.
Oliver Cromm
> lispa...@internet.uqam.ca had it:
>
>> Is there any country besides the US that cares about the ordinal number
>> of their heads of state after #1?
>
> All monarchies do, for heads with the same forename.
Three of "our" earliest emperors are usually known as Charles the Great,
Charles the Bald and Charles the Fat. I don't know their numbers.
--
Skyler: Uncle Cosmo ... why do they call this a word processor?
Cosmo: It's simple, Skyler ... you've seen what food processors do
to food, right?
Cartoon by Jeff MacNelley
Oliver Cromm
> Oliver Cromm wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>>>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Everyone knows that Washington is number one,
>>>>
>>>> Virtually everyone, yes.
>>>>
>>>>>> and can probably do the first five or six;
>>>>
>>>> Very doubtful. A fair number could probably produce a list
>>>> of five or six that had a large intersection with the first
>>>> five or six, but getting them in the right order is another
>>>> matter.
>>>
>>> Except in Chicago, don't street names usually go in order?
>>
>> Is there any country besides the US that cares about the ordinal number
>> of their heads of state after #1?
>
> Would there be mnemonic poems for remembering the kings and queens of
> England if not?
Presumably, they stem from a time when such knowledge was thought useful
for school purposes (non vitae sed scholae discimus!).
> Are schoolchildren in other "nations" not expected to know the names
> and order of their rulers?
I would be hard-pressed to name the handfull of presidents or
chancellors my young country had in 60 years, in any order. When I went
to school in the 70s, remembering names of leaders or dates of battles
was considered hopelessly obsolete(*).
(*) Is this combination idiomatic in English?
--
There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is to make
it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies. And the other way
is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies.
The first method is far more difficult. -- C. A. R. Hoare
Peter T. Daniels
Yes -- that phrase is fine.
You're younger than me, but I'm young enough that I didn't have to
memorize vast quantities of English poetry, as previous generations
did. But we did do names and dates.
Roland Hutchinson
> Maybe "howmanyeth" just happens to be missing from English because a
> single word meaning "how many" (German "wieviel") is missing and the -th
> suffix doesn't lend itself to attaching it to a group of words (unlike,
> e.g., 's)?
But is it missing? Although it's missing from the OED, Google turns up uses
of both "how manyeth" (as two words) and "howmanyeth" (as a single word) --
and they aren't all from Finnegans Wake, either.
If it isn't a word of the standard language as such, it is at least an
repeatedly recoined nonce word.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Default User
> In article <6f6rq2dg30gmn1aov...@4ax.com>,
> rat@atatatat..com says...
> > Two terms, I think, and nothing is specified as to consecutive or
> > not.
>
> Getting very technical, no person may be elected president more than
> twice, and a person who has served more than two years of another
> president's unexpired term may be elected only once.
>
> So it is technically possible for a person to serve more than two
> terms as President, but not by election, only by succession. It
> seems extremely unlikely for any former President to regain the
> office through succession -- to do so would require holding a lower
> office after leaving the Presidency, e.g. Vice President.
Why, haven't you heard that Clinton's coming back? He'll run as
Hillary's VP, then after victory she'll step aside immediately. I heard
it on the interweb, so it must be true.
Of course, I also read a reasoned discourse about how Hillary is
ineligle to become President, as her husband already was elected twice
and husband and wife are considered the same person under the law.
I'm not sure yet how to reconcile these seemingly contradictory things,
but no doubt there is an reasonable explanation.
Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
Randall Coleman
<use...@mantra.comFoyWg or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj)> wrote in
message news:20070116APtouvHwZuFoyWg5fsx5R0O@Owze3...
> Munglish (my name for English) is severely lacking
> in a number of respects. When it comes to asking
> questions of the type being discussed in this thread,
> I simply ask, for instance:
>
> Example 1:
>
> George W. Bush is the 43rd president of the US, who was the fifth?
>
> Example 2:
>
> George W. Bush is the 43rd president of the US, what about George
> Washington?
>
> Example 3:
>
> Who were the third and seventh presidents of the US?
>
> Such is Munglish.
>
> Jai Maharaj
> http://tinyurl.com/yhjyp5
> http://www.mantra.com/jai
> Om Shanti
>
>
Is "Ordinally speaking, which president was Jimmy Carter?" too awkward?
Randall Coleman
Evan Kirshenbaum
> <jo...@phred.org> wrote:
>
>> Getting very technical, no person may be elected president more
>> than twice, and a person who has served more than two years of
>> another president's unexpired term may be elected only once.
>>
>> So it is technically possible for a person to serve more than two
>> terms as President, but not by election, only by succession. It
>> seems extremely unlikely for any former President to regain the
>> office through succession -- to do so would require holding a lower
>> office after leaving the Presidency, e.g. Vice President.
>
> Why, haven't you heard that Clinton's coming back? He'll run as
> Hillary's VP, then after victory she'll step aside immediately. I
> heard it on the interweb, so it must be true.
That first came up (at times as a serious proposal) after Reagan's
second term. I don't recall if it was ever decided whether it would
have been legal or not.
The 22nd amendment says "No person shall be elected president more
than twice", but he would only have been elected twice as president
and once as vice president. On the other hand, the 12th amendment
says "no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President
shall be eligible to that of Vice-President". So the question was
whether not being able to be elected to the office made you
"ineligible to the the office".
Then there was the argument that said that, yes he would be ineligible
under the 12th amendment, but that that only meant that the electoral
college couldn't choose him. But if the vice president resigned, then
the 25th amendment allowed the president to appoint him vice
president, and then the president could resign, at which point he
would become president.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |All tax revenue is the result of
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |holding a gun to somebody's head.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Not paying taxes is against the law.
|If you don't pay your taxes, you'll
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |be fined. If you don't pay the fine,
(650)857-7572 |you'll be jailed. If you try to
|escape from jail, you'll be shot.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke
or www.mantra.com/jai
"Randall Coleman" <res1...@verizon.net> posted:
>
> www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj) posted:
> > Munglish (my name for English) is severely lacking
> > in a number of respects. When it comes to asking
> > questions of the type being discussed in this thread,
> > I simply ask, for instance:
> >
> > Example 1:
> >
> > George W. Bush is the 43rd president of the US, who was the fifth?
> >
> > Example 2:
> >
> > George W. Bush is the 43rd president of the US, what about George
> > Washington?
> >
> > Example 3:
> >
> > Who were the third and seventh presidents of the US?
> >
> > Such is Munglish.
> >
> > Jai Maharaj
>
> Randall Coleman
It probably wouldn't be in Bharat where the British Munglish
taught usually results in people using extraordinary words
for the sake of using them, but here in the US they typical
reaction would be: "Huh?" Once I came to the US I had to
try to simplify the Munglish down to Americanese, or shall I
say "American-ease".
or www.mantra.com/jai
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> posted:
There are many variations in use:
What's the date today?
What's today, the 17th?
What's today? (Can refer to day of the week or date.)
Oh no, today's what? (Obviously concerned about a due date.)
phog...@abo.fi
Don Phillipson wrote:
> It was noticed long ago that
> English has no standard word to ask "what is the ordinal
> rank of?" or "how manyeth?" and some other languages
> have such a word. But it is notoriously rare in Europe
As my native language (Finnish) happens to have such a standard word
"monesko" or "kuinka mones", I have always been puzzled by the fact
that there is no easy way to convey that idea in the other languages I
know. When I was learning German, I was pleasantly surprised to find
out that German has "der wievielte".
Mark Brader
>> Tupper, Laurier, Borden, Meighen, King, Meighen, King again, Bennett,
>> King again, Laurent ...
> Interesting. I gather you refer to Louis St-Laurent. If asked, I would
> have said his last name was St-Laurent, not just Laurent.
>
> Is this a French vs. English thing?
No, it's an editing error. I missed the one two-word surname on the
list when :%s//.* /ing the given names away.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | sed -e "s;??\\([-=(/)'<!>]\\);?\\\\?\\1;g"
m...@vex.net | will fix them... -- Karl Heuer
Mark Brader
> > have said his last name was St-Laurent, not just Laurent.
> >
> > Is this a French vs. English thing?
>
Oh, the two-word surname was "St. Laurent". The use of a hyphen is French.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "We did not try to keep writing until
m...@vex.net | things got full." --Dennis Ritchie
Default User
> "Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > Why, haven't you heard that Clinton's coming back? He'll run as
> > Hillary's VP, then after victory she'll step aside immediately. I
> > heard it on the interweb, so it must be true.
>
> That first came up (at times as a serious proposal) after Reagan's
> second term.
I first heard it in a joking manner about Nixon, in a comic strip. It
could have been Doonesbury, but I'm not sure.
Oleg Lego
>> > Interesting. I gather you refer to Louis St-Laurent. If asked, I would
>> > have said his last name was St-Laurent, not just Laurent.
>> >
>> > Is this a French vs. English thing?
>>
>> No, it's an editing error. I missed the one two-word surname ...
>
>Oh, the two-word surname was "St. Laurent". The use of a hyphen is French.
Ahh. I remembered the St. Laurent spelling, but when I did a quick
google on lists of prime ministers, all the hits I looked at used the
hyphen.
When I was a lad, I thought it was probably spelled "Sanleraw".
CDB
>>> Interesting. I gather you refer to Louis St-Laurent. If asked, I
>>> would have said his last name was St-Laurent, not just Laurent.
>>>
>>> Is this a French vs. English thing?
>>
>> No, it's an editing error. I missed the one two-word surname ...
>
> Oh, the two-word surname was "St. Laurent". The use of a hyphen is
> French.
Donc, en français t'es Marc Bras-d'or?
C. De Bellehumeur
Mark Brader
> > Oh, the two-word surname was "St. Laurent". The use of a hyphen is
> > French.
C.D.B.:
> Donc, en français t'es Marc Bras-d'or?
Eh bien, définiment pas Brador. Je ne bois pas de bière.
--
Mark Brader "I cannot reply in French, but I will
Toronto type English very slowly and loudly."
m...@vex.net --Lars Eighner
CDB
> Mark Brader:
>>> Oh, the two-word surname was "St. Laurent". The use of a hyphen
>>> is French.
>
> C.D.B.:
>> Donc, en français t'es Marc Bras-d'or?
>
> Eh bien, définiment pas Brador. Je ne bois pas de bière.
Moi non plus, generally. That one was my choice when out pubbing
with friends, because the higher alcohol content made it taste better
faster. And in those days, Transpondians, Canadian beer all tasted
the same.
Paul J Kriha
>
> Don Phillipson wrote:
> > It was noticed long ago that
> > English has no standard word to ask "what is the ordinal
> > rank of?" or "how manyeth?" and some other languages
> > have such a word. But it is notoriously rare in Europe
>
> As my native language (Finnish) happens to have such a standard word
> "monesko" or "kuinka mones", I have always been puzzled by the fact
> that there is no easy way to convey that idea in the other languages I
> know.
Isn't Finnish surrounded by languages most of which have
the exact equivalent expression?
pjk
phog...@abo.fi
Paul J Kriha wrote:
> <phog...@abo.fi> wrote in message news:1169107391....@11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Don Phillipson wrote:
> > > It was noticed long ago that
> > > English has no standard word to ask "what is the ordinal
> > > rank of?" or "how manyeth?" and some other languages
> > > have such a word. But it is notoriously rare in Europe
> >
> > As my native language (Finnish) happens to have such a standard word
> > "monesko" or "kuinka mones", I have always been puzzled by the fact
> > that there is no easy way to convey that idea in the other languages I
> > know.
>
> Isn't Finnish surrounded by languages most of which have
> the exact equivalent expression?
Not really. In Swedish, "hur mångte" (hur många = how many) is
perceived as a Finnicism. It is part of careless everyday talk among
the Swedish speakers in Finland, but they are advised not to use it in
written language.
phog...@abo.fi
Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
> Munglish (my name for English) is severely lacking
> in a number of respects.
Niilo the real Prophet for Jai:
Paul J Kriha
>Paul J Kriha wrote:
>> <phog...@abo.fi> wrote in message >news:1169107391.686457.57230@11g2>000cwr.googlegroups.com...
Okay, I was thinking, for example, of German, and all Slavic and Baltic
languages. You said "howmanyeth" was "notoriously rare in Europe".
My impression was that languages without some kind of "howmanyeth"
were the ones that were rarer in Europe.
pjk
P.S. Blast... we've said "rare" several times.
It's not my fault, I have to do a Bart: "I didn't do it!"
phog...@abo.fi
Paul J Kriha kirjoitti:
Well, of course all have some way to express it, but often an awkward
way. I wasn't quite sure about Polish, and checked "der wievielte" in
my Langenscheidt German-Polish dictionary - and it only gave "który".
Daniel al-Autistiqui
<d.phillips...@ncf.ca> wrote:
>have such a word. But it is notoriously rare in Europe cf.
>> http://www.answers.com/topic/ordinal
Rare?
daniel mcgrath
--
Daniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende":
for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com"
Developmentally disabled;
has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder),
Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder,
& periodic bouts of depression.
[This signature is under construction.]
Paul J Kriha
>Paul J Kriha kirjoitti:
>> <phog...@abo.fi> wrote in message news:1169195104.2...@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >Paul J Kriha wrote:
>> >> <phog...@abo.fi> wrote in message
>>news:1169107391.686457.57230@11g2>000cwr.googlegroups.com...
>> > >>
>> > >> Don Phillipson wrote:
>> > >> > It was noticed long ago that
>> > >> > English has no standard word to ask "what is the ordinal
>> > >> > rank of?" or "how manyeth?" and some other languages
>> > >> > have such a word. But it is notoriously rare in Europe
>> > >>
>> > >> As my native language (Finnish) happens to have such a standard word
>> > >> "monesko" or "kuinka mones", I have always been puzzled by the fact
>> > >> that there is no easy way to convey that idea in the other languages I
>> > >> know.
>> >>
>> >> Isn't Finnish surrounded by languages most of which have
>> >> the exact equivalent expression?
>> >
>> >perceived as a Finnicism. It is part of careless everyday talk among
>> >the Swedish speakers in Finland, but they are advised not to use it in
>> >written language.
>>
>> Okay, I was thinking, for example, of German, and all Slavic and Baltic
>> languages. You said "howmanyeth" was "notoriously rare in Europe".
>> My impression was that languages without some kind of "howmanyeth"
>> were the ones that were rarer in Europe.
>
>Well, of course all have some way to express it, but often an awkward
>way. I wasn't quite sure about Polish, and checked "der wievielte" in
>my Langenscheidt German-Polish dictionary - and it only gave "który".
You never looked into any grammar books for
chapters discussing ordinal expressions and for
most of the European languages you haven't
looked into any reference books at all.
And yet you said "notoriously rare in Europe".
pjk
phog...@abo.fi
Paul J Kriha wrote:
> <phog...@abo.fi> wrote in message news:1169224923....@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >Paul J Kriha kirjoitti:
> >> <phog...@abo.fi> wrote in message news:1169195104.2...@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >> >Paul J Kriha wrote:
> >> >> <phog...@abo.fi> wrote in message
> >>news:1169107391.686457.57230@11g2>000cwr.googlegroups.com...
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Don Phillipson wrote:
> >> > >> > It was noticed long ago that
> >> > >> > English has no standard word to ask "what is the ordinal
> >> > >> > rank of?" or "how manyeth?" and some other languages
> >> > >> > have such a word. But it is notoriously rare in Europe
> >> > >>
> >> > >> As my native language (Finnish) happens to have such a standard word
> >> > >> "monesko" or "kuinka mones", I have always been puzzled by the fact
> >> > >> that there is no easy way to convey that idea in the other languages I
> >> > >> know.
> >> >>
> >> >> Isn't Finnish surrounded by languages most of which have
> >> >> the exact equivalent expression?
> >> >
> >> >perceived as a Finnicism. It is part of careless everyday talk among
> >> >the Swedish speakers in Finland, but they are advised not to use it in
> >> >written language.
> >>
> >> Okay, I was thinking, for example, of German, and all Slavic and Baltic
> >> languages. You said "howmanyeth" was "notoriously rare in Europe".
> >> My impression was that languages without some kind of "howmanyeth"
> >> were the ones that were rarer in Europe.
> >
> >Well, of course all have some way to express it, but often an awkward
> >way. I wasn't quite sure about Polish, and checked "der wievielte" in
> >my Langenscheidt German-Polish dictionary - and it only gave "który".
>
> You never looked into any grammar books for
> chapters discussing ordinal expressions and for
> most of the European languages you haven't
> looked into any reference books at all.
Oh come on. Due to the fact that it is such a salient feature in my
native language, I have always been forced to look for it in
dictionaries, grammars and everywhere. And the fact is that I have been
left with the impression that in those blasted Indo-European languages
there is always some stupid circumlocution. The reason why I mentioned
Polish was, that I hadn't been speaking it for some time and couldn't
be sure how it is done there.
Anyway, it might be I have picked up the wrong languages to study, but
as long as my reference books are correct, German is the only language
I have studied which does have a special word for "how manyeth".
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
> Oh come on. Due to the fact that it is such a salient feature in my
> native language, I have always been forced to look for it in
> dictionaries, grammars and everywhere.
> I have studied which does have a special word for "how manyeth".
>From an SOV 1st language bias, German also has a pleasing degree of SOV
expressability.
Paul J Kriha
>Paul J Kriha wrote:
>> <phog...@abo.fi> wrote in message >news:1169224923.808812.15800@s34g>2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >Paul J Kriha kirjoitti:>
> >> phoglund@abo.f>i> wrote in message
news:1169195104.24>8816....@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
[...]
> >>Well, of course all have some way to express it, but often an awkward
> >>way. I wasn't quite sure about Polish, and checked "der wievielte" in
> >>my Langenscheidt German-Polish dictionary - and it only gave "który".
>>
>> You never looked into any grammar books for
>> chapters discussing ordinal expressions and for
>> most of the European languages you haven't
>> looked into any reference books at all.
>
>Oh come on. Due to the fact that it is such a salient feature in my
>native language, I have always been forced to look for it in
>dictionaries, grammars and everywhere. And the fact is that I have been
>left with the impression that in those blasted Indo-European languages
>there is always some stupid circumlocution. The reason why I mentioned
>Polish was, that I hadn't been speaking it for some time and couldn't
>be sure how it is done there.
>
>Anyway, it might be I have picked up the wrong languages to study, but
>as long as my reference books are correct, German is the only language
>I have studied which does have a special word for "how manyeth".
Right. My "luck" went the other way. As a child I learned
Czech and while living in a bilingual country I passively learned
to understand Slovak. Later in primary and secondary schools
I learned German and Russian. So it wasn't until I was twenty
six/twenty seven, when I started to learn English, that I hit
upon a language with no "howmanyeth".
pjk
phog...@abo.fi
I see. But is there really a special word for it in Russian? I always
thought Russian relies on "kotoryi", i.e. "which?" - as Polish on
"który". My Czech is very limited, although I can read a newspaper in
Czech and Slovak, at least with the help of a dictionary. How do you do
it in Czech, then?
Padraic Brown
If I understand right, we have two words for this: "nth" and
"umpteenth". Like:
"Tell me again how you got that ring?"
"For the umpteenth time! -- I found the bloody thing on the street!"
Nth is more mathematical in nature, and can be used something like a
variable.
Is that of any help?
Padraic.
>pjk
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
> As a child I learned
> Czech and while living in a bilingual country I passively learned
> to understand Slovak. Later in primary and secondary schools
> I learned German and Russian. So it wasn't until I was twenty
> six/twenty seven, when I started to learn English, that I hit
> upon a language with no "howmanyeth".
In at least one of these languages, can you ask "By age at assuming
office, what is the ordinal rank of Reagan's presidency?"
In my Malayalam: <presid.ensi tud.angunna samayatol.l.a pra:yam
ansariccu r.e:gan etra:mate: presid.enta:n.a>?
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> Paul J Kriha wrote:
Fuck you and fuck your fuckin' Malayalam, Rancid Dipshit.
Jesus Christ Almighty, you -- the most boooooring of all boring
posters -- have cross-posted some hundred-odd posts in several threads
to <alt.usage.english>, a newsgroup not interested in your boooooring
shit about esoteric Sanskrit, Hindi, Tamil, or Malayalam phonetics and
phonemics or /n./ or /s[/ or whatever else you boring bastard keep
inflicting on totally inappropriate groups.
Your attention-seeking tactics are obvious, but too many otherwise
smart guys fall for your tricks: Whenever <sci.lang>ers get bored
with your boring crap, you drag in a different topic or language or --
especially -- ask questions, so that some other lonely or helpful soul
will get suckered in to respond, which in turn gives you yet another
chance to drop more Dravidian dung into these newsgroups by asking yet
another stupid question, ad nauseam.
Can't you find a woman, boyfriend, camel, or sheep in Real Life to
spice up and enrich your dreadfully boring life and to keep you out of
most newsgroups, you inconsiderate, lonely, boooooring son-of-a-bitch?
Stop cross-posting your boring shit to AUE!
Q: Das wievielte Arschloch in <sci.lang> ist
dieser langweilige Scheißkerl "Rancid Dipshit"?
A: Das erste.
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
M A L E D I C T A
Santa Rosa, CA 95402
USA
http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/aman.html
Paul J Kriha
> >Paul J Kriha wrote:>
> >> phoglund@abo.>fi> wrote in message
> > >Paul J Kriha kirjo>itti:>
> > >> phoglund@abo>.f>i> wrote in message
> news:1169195104.2>4>8816....@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Czech "který" is an equivalent of the Polish "który" you mentioned.
It is an approximate equivalent of English "which one".
I say "approximate" because "který" is grammatically more specific.
Singular - masc. "který", fem. "která", neut. "které"
Plural - masc. animate human "kter^í", rest of masc. "které",
fem. "které", neut. "která"
"kolik" without any suffixes and prepositions is an equivalent
of English "how many" or "how much".
"kolikátý" is an equivalent to "how manyeth" with the same
system of declensions for number and gender as in "který".
"kolikadenní" is "how many times a day"
"kolikpak" is literally "haw many then?" (usually occurs in
questions as a more demanding/impatient version of "kolik")
"kolikrát" is "howmanytimes"
"koliksetkrát" is "howmanyhundredsoftimes"
"kolikerý" is "howmany(pairs)".
This is used with frequently occuring pluralia tantums of pairs.
For example "How many pairs of shoes do you have?".
In Czech you don't mention "pairs of", also there is no need for an
auxiliary verb and since the second person singular is clear from the
verb there is no need for a pronoun "you", so the Czech question is
"kolikery más boty?".
Depending on the prosodic sentence stress, these three words can
occur in several different orders.
pjk
Peter T. Daniels
ranjit_...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Paul J Kriha wrote:
> > As a child I learned
> > Czech and while living in a bilingual country I passively learned
> > to understand Slovak. Later in primary and secondary schools
> > I learned German and Russian. So it wasn't until I was twenty
> > six/twenty seven, when I started to learn English, that I hit
> > upon a language with no "howmanyeth".
"Umpteenth" and "nth" aren't question words, so they don't serve as
"howmanyth." (I don't know why you've all been spelling that with an
e.)
> In at least one of these languages, can you ask "By age at assuming
> office, what is the ordinal rank of Reagan's presidency?"
"Who was the oldest president?" Reagan. (McCain would be older.)
"Who was the youngest president?" T. Roosevelt.
""Who was the youngest elected president?" Kennedy.
"Which president lived the longest?" Ford.
M. Ranjit Mathews
Reinhold (Rey) Aman wrote:
> "ranjit_...@yahoo.com" wrote:
> > Paul J Kriha wrote:
>
> > > As a child I learned Czech
> > > and while living in a bilingual country I passively learned
> > > to understand Slovak. Later in primary and secondary schools
> > > I learned German and Russian.
> > office, what is the ordinal rank of Reagan's presidency?"
> smart guys fall for your tricks:
I'm interested in seeing how it can be expressed in one other language.
> Whenever <sci.lang>ers get bored
> with your boring crap, you drag in a different topic or language
> Stop cross-posting your boring shit to AUE!
Sorry; the thread has become off-topic to AUE, so I should have reduced
the distribution.
R J Valentine
...
} phonemics or /n./ or /s[/ or whatever else you boring bastard keep
} inflicting on totally inappropriate groups.
Dr. Aman, scholar of verbal aggression that he is, knows full well that
that can't be used in the singular in English, though it can be used in
the plural and can be used in the singular in Bavarian and other Germans.
I'd suggest that he's just doing it to needle me, but that would trigger
STS ("You're so vain") in so many people that I wouldn't dare.
...
} Q: Das wievielte Arschloch in <sci.lang> ist
} dieser langweilige Scheißkerl "Rancid Dipshit"?
} A: Das erste.
But can you ask it three times fast?
} Reinhold (Rey) Aman
} M A L E D I C T A
} Santa Rosa, CA 95402
} USA
} http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/aman.html
Oh, I forgot to mention that my copy of Dr. Aman's Insult Calendar has now
resurfaced and is perched in a place of honor right next to my trusty old
(blue) _20,000 Words_ Third edition (Copyright, 1951, 1942, 1934, by
The Gregg Publishing Company). Every true contributor to
alt.usage.english should have a personal copy of at least that, if not a
complete set of _Maledicta_ and a hardbound copy of the B-O SWB.
--
rjv
Paul J Kriha
news:1169469895....@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> ranjit_...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Paul J Kriha wrote:
> > > As a child I learned
> > > Czech and while living in a bilingual country I passively learned
> > > to understand Slovak. Later in primary and secondary schools
> > > I learned German and Russian. So it wasn't until I was twenty
> > > six/twenty seven, when I started to learn English, that I hit
> > > upon a language with no "howmanyeth".
>
> "Umpteenth" and "nth" aren't question words, so they don't serve as
> "howmanyth."
Agreed.
> (I don't know why you've all been spelling that with an e.)
I don't know why other people do it but I spelled it that way
because the few times I've heard people come up with this
artificial word they pronounced it as if it had an e in it.
> > In at least one of these languages, can you ask "By age at assuming
> > office, what is the ordinal rank of Reagan's presidency?"
>
> "Who was the oldest president?" Reagan. (McCain would be older.)
> "Who was the youngest president?" T. Roosevelt.
> "Who was the youngest elected president?" Kennedy.
> "Which president lived the longest?" Ford.
I don't quite understand Ranjit's problem. Why would any
modern language have a problem with that particular question?
Many listeners might have problems understanding it
but that's another story.
Be it as it may, in all languages I am familiar with
people are much more likely to ask more-or-less
literal translations of questions as suggested by Peter.
pjk
nas...@gmail.com
Jack
>What is/was the ordinal status of indira Gandhi among the prime ministers of india?
--
J
Peter Moylan
> What is/was the ordinal status of indira Gandhi among the prime
> ministers of india?
time in the past. The final answer, as I recall it, was "English never
found any need for such a word".
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Madhu
Wrote on Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:51:39 +1000:
> On 04/10/18 20:30, nas...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> What is/was the ordinal status of indira Gandhi among the prime
>> ministers of india?
>
> I remember someone coming up with essentially the same question at
> some time in the past. The final answer, as I recall it, was "English
> never found any need for such a word".
time among the nations about setting up the first female prime minister.
Golda Meir was also in the race. Both lost to Sri Lanka in 1960.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Indira Gandhi was the daughter of Nehru and shared a name with Mahatma
Gandhi. Golda Meir did it all on her own.
--
athel