Meaning of "El Chapo"

[mrbob...@yahoo.com]

Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the British chap, meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived from English through the simple addition of an o at the end.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 08:49:16 -0700 (PDT), mrbob...@yahoo.com wrote:

>Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the British chap, meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived from English through the simple addition of an o at the end.

I have no idea what "El Chapo" means, but are you sure it wasn't
supposed to be "El Cheapo"?

At least in US English, it's a slang term for a person who is
excessively cheap or miserly.

If you buy something on the El Cheapo, you are spending the least
amount of money possible for the purchase and probably buying an
inferior product.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 12:01:31 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 08:49:16 -0700 (PDT), mrbob...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the British chap, meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived from English through the simple addition of an o at the end.
>
>I have no idea what "El Chapo" means, but are you sure it wasn't
>supposed to be "El Cheapo"?
>

It is presumably a reference to the chappie who has recently escaped
from prison in Mexico:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joaqu%C3%ADn_Guzm%C3%A1n_Loera

Joaquín Archivaldo Guzmán Loera... Known as "El Chapo Guzmán" ("The
Shorty Guzmán", ... for his 1.68 m (5 ft 6 in) stature

>At least in US English, it's a slang term for a person who is
>excessively cheap or miserly.
>
>If you buy something on the El Cheapo, you are spending the least
>amount of money possible for the purchase and probably buying an
>inferior product.

--

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Traddict]

"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> a écrit dans le message de
groupe de discussion : md1dqal8kfq489rb6...@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 12:01:31 -0400, Tony Cooper
> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 08:49:16 -0700 (PDT), mrbob...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>>Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the British chap,
>>>meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived from English through the
>>>simple addition of an o at the end.
>>
>>I have no idea what "El Chapo" means, but are you sure it wasn't
>>supposed to be "El Cheapo"?
>>
> It is presumably a reference to the chappie who has recently escaped
> from prison in Mexico:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joaqu%C3%ADn_Guzm%C3%A1n_Loera

It looks like El Chapo vamoosed...

[Stan Brown]

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 12:01:31 -0400, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 08:49:16 -0700 (PDT), mrbob...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the British chap, meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived from English through the simple addition of an o at the end.
>
> I have no idea what "El Chapo" means, but are you sure it wasn't
> supposed to be "El Cheapo"?

+1

> At least in US English, it's a slang term for a person who is
> excessively cheap or miserly.
>
> If you buy something on the El Cheapo, you are spending the least
> amount of money possible for the purchase and probably buying an
> inferior product.

I have heard it applied to products, but not to persons. "I bought an
El Cheapo laptop" -- one that was inexpensive, not very powerful, and
lacked some features.

--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Pablo]

Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 12:01:31 -0400, Tony Cooper
> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 08:49:16 -0700 (PDT), mrbob...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>>Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the British chap,
>>>meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived from English through the
>>>simple addition of an o at the end.
>>
>>I have no idea what "El Chapo" means, but are you sure it wasn't
>>supposed to be "El Cheapo"?
>>
> It is presumably a reference to the chappie who has recently escaped
> from prison in Mexico:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joaqu%C3%ADn_Guzm%C3%A1n_Loera
>
> Joaquín Archivaldo Guzmán Loera... Known as "El Chapo Guzmán" ("The
> Shorty Guzmán", ... for his 1.68 m (5 ft 6 in) stature

chapo, pa.

1. m. y f. coloq. Méx. Persona de baja estatura.

--

Pablo

http://www.ipernity.com/home/313627
https://paulc.es/
https://paulc.es/piso
https://paulc.es/elpatio

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 08:49:16 -0700 (PDT), mrbob...@yahoo.com wrote:

>Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the British chap, meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived from English

"Hey, muchacho!"

"What do you think I am? El Bloko?"





--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:26:50 -0400, Stan Brown
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 12:01:31 -0400, Tony Cooper wrote:

>> If you buy something on the El Cheapo, you are spending the least
>> amount of money possible for the purchase and probably buying an
>> inferior product.
>
>I have heard it applied to products, but not to persons. "I bought an
>El Cheapo laptop" -- one that was inexpensive, not very powerful, and
>lacked some features.

That's my usage, too. Products, not persons.

[Peter Moylan]

On 2015-Jul-16 18:39, Pablo wrote:
> Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 12:01:31 -0400, Tony Cooper
>> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 08:49:16 -0700 (PDT), mrbob...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the British chap,
>>>> meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived from English through the
>>>> simple addition of an o at the end.
>>>
>>> I have no idea what "El Chapo" means, but are you sure it wasn't
>>> supposed to be "El Cheapo"?
>>>
>> It is presumably a reference to the chappie who has recently escaped
>> from prison in Mexico:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joaqu%C3%ADn_Guzm%C3%A1n_Loera
>>
>> Joaquín Archivaldo Guzmán Loera... Known as "El Chapo Guzmán" ("The
>> Shorty Guzmán", ... for his 1.68 m (5 ft 6 in) stature
>
> chapo, pa.
>
> 1. m. y f. coloq. Méx. Persona de baja estatura.

Yes, but the mrbobjames school of Spanish teaches us that:
persona English 'person' with an 'a' added
estatura English 'stature' with an 'a' added and
some inexplicable fiddling at the start
baja English 'bwah-ha-ha'

Therefore a chap of laughable stature.

Of course being short has some advantages, like not needing as much
headroom in the tunnel.

Listening to the news reports I always hear his name as Gusmão. That of
course is because Xanana Gusmão is a prominent East Timorese politician.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, July 16, 2015 at 7:48:25 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 2015-Jul-16 18:39, Pablo wrote:
> > Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> >> On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 12:01:31 -0400, Tony Cooper
> >> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 08:49:16 -0700 (PDT), mrbob...@yahoo.com wrote:

> >>>> Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the British chap,
> >>>> meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived from English through the
> >>>> simple addition of an o at the end.
> >>> I have no idea what "El Chapo" means, but are you sure it wasn't
> >>> supposed to be "El Cheapo"?
> >> It is presumably a reference to the chappie who has recently escaped
> >> from prison in Mexico:
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joaqu%C3%ADn_Guzm%C3%A1n_Loera
> >> Joaquín Archivaldo Guzmán Loera... Known as "El Chapo Guzmán" ("The
> >> Shorty Guzmán", ... for his 1.68 m (5 ft 6 in) stature
> > chapo, pa.
> > 1. m. y f. coloq. Méx. Persona de baja estatura.
>
> Yes, but the mrbobjames school of Spanish teaches us that:
> persona English 'person' with an 'a' added
> estatura English 'stature' with an 'a' added and
> some inexplicable fiddling at the start
> baja English 'bwah-ha-ha'
>
> Therefore a chap of laughable stature.

Well done.

> Of course being short has some advantages, like not needing as much
> headroom in the tunnel.

It was equipped with a motorcycle. You can't expect a major drug lord to walk
a mile just to get out of jail. So presumably they need to look for a laughable
chap in a helmet.

> Listening to the news reports I always hear his name as Gusmão. That of
> course is because Xanana Gusmão is a prominent East Timorese politician.

Guzmán is a fairly common family name Up Here. I don't know whether it's
specifically Mexican.

[musika]

On 16/07/2015 12:48, Peter Moylan wrote:
> Listening to the news reports I always hear his name as Gusmão. That of
> course is because Xanana Gusmão is a prominent East Timorese politician.
>

Same name but in Portuguese.
Guzmán was the name of the Dukes of Medina Sidonia - including the one
who led the Spanish Armada.

--
Ray
UK

[R H Draney]

Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote in
news:mo85je$8u1$1...@dont-email.me:

> On 2015-Jul-16 18:39, Pablo wrote:
>> Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Joaquín Archivaldo Guzmán Loera... Known as "El Chapo Guzmán"
>>> ("The Shorty Guzmán", ... for his 1.68 m (5 ft 6 in) stature
>>
>> chapo, pa.
>>
>> 1. m. y f. coloq. Méx. Persona de baja estatura.

I need some eyedrops...when I saw the message from Pablo last night I read
the last word as "estuaria"....r

[Dr Nick]

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> writes:

> On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:26:50 -0400, Stan Brown
> <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 12:01:31 -0400, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>>> If you buy something on the El Cheapo, you are spending the least
>>> amount of money possible for the purchase and probably buying an
>>> inferior product.
>>
>>I have heard it applied to products, but not to persons. "I bought an
>>El Cheapo laptop" -- one that was inexpensive, not very powerful, and
>>lacked some features.
>
> That's my usage, too. Products, not persons.

And mine.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Steve Hayes:

> On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 08:49:16 -0700 (PDT), mrbob...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the
>> British chap, meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived
>> from English
>
> "Hey, muchacho!"
>
> "What do you think I am? El Bloko?"

El Dudo!

--
The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose
from; furthermore, if you do not like any of them, you can just
wait for next year's model.
Andrew Tanenbaum, _Computer Networks_ (1981), p. 168.

[Dr. HotSalt]

On Tuesday, July 21, 2015 at 9:38:10 AM UTC-7, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> * Steve Hayes:
>
> > On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 08:49:16 -0700 (PDT), mrbob...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> >> Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the
> >> British chap, meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived
> >> from English
> >
> > "Hey, muchacho!"
> >
> > "What do you think I am? El Bloko?"
>
> El Dudo!

El Bro-o?


Dr. HotSalt

[ge...@brice.com]

On Wednesday, July 15, 2015 at 10:49:21 AM UTC-5, mrbob...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the British chap, meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived from English through the simple addition of an o at the end.

In Mexico, it is slang for "Shortie". The Drug dealer who has been in and out of prison has this as his nickname. (And by the way, MOST Spanish nouns are certainly not derived from English. Spanish is a romance language, doesn't derive from English at all. Over the years a number of English nouns have been adapted into common Spanish, just as a number of Spanish nouns have been adapted into English.....taco, frito, enchilada....other Spanish words, most frequently food items.)

[RH Draney]

On 1/8/2016 5:18 PM, ge...@brice.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 15, 2015 at 10:49:21 AM UTC-5, mrbob...@yahoo.com wrote:

> (And by the way, MOST Spanish nouns are certainly not derived from English. Spanish is a romance language, doesn't derive from English at all. Over the years a number of English nouns have been adapted into common Spanish,

Would "mofles para trocas" be an expression that contains two of those?...r

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-01-09 00:18:35 +0000, ge...@brice.com said:

> On Wednesday, July 15, 2015 at 10:49:21 AM UTC-5, mrbob...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the British
>> chap, meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived from English
>> through the simple addition of an o at the end.
>
> In Mexico, it is slang for "Shortie". The Drug dealer who has been in
> and out of prison has this as his nickname. (And by the way, MOST
> Spanish nouns are certainly not derived from English.

Did anyone suppose they were?

> Spanish is a romance language, doesn't derive from English at all.
> Over the years a number of English nouns have been adapted into common
> Spanish, just as a number of Spanish nouns have been adapted into
> English.....taco, frito, enchilada....other Spanish words, most
> frequently food items.)

--
athel

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Athel Cornish-Bowden skrev:

>> On Wednesday, July 15, 2015 at 10:49:21 AM UTC-5, mrbob...@yahoo.com
>> wrote:
>>> Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the British
>>> chap, meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived from English
>>> through the simple addition of an o at the end.

>> In Mexico, it is slang for "Shortie". The Drug dealer who has been in
>> and out of prison has this as his nickname. (And by the way, MOST
>> Spanish nouns are certainly not derived from English.

> Did anyone suppose they were?

Yes, mrbob did in the first quoted section.

--
/Bertel - stadig med Linux

[Richard Tobin]

In article <n6qtru$tne$9...@dont-email.me>,

He obviously meant that most Spanish nouns that are derived from
English are derived by adding "o".

-- Richard

[Lewis]

In message <dfbpm7...@mid.individual.net>

Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> On 2016-01-09 00:18:35 +0000, ge...@brice.com said:

>> On Wednesday, July 15, 2015 at 10:49:21 AM UTC-5, mrbob...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the British
>>> chap, meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived from English
>>> through the simple addition of an o at the end.
>>
>> In Mexico, it is slang for "Shortie". The Drug dealer who has been in
>> and out of prison has this as his nickname. (And by the way, MOST
>> Spanish nouns are certainly not derived from English.

> Did anyone suppose they were?

Yes. Up above mrbob said "Chapo" came from BrE "chap".

--
What was it they said about gods? They wouldn't exist if there weren't
people to believe in them? And that applied to everything. Reality was
what went on inside people's heads. --Moving Pictures

[Janet]

In article <n6qu8u$d7q$1...@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk>, ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
says...

wrongo

Janet

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-01-09 12:34:43 +0000, Lewis said:

> In message <dfbpm7...@mid.individual.net>
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> On 2016-01-09 00:18:35 +0000, ge...@brice.com said:
>
>>> On Wednesday, July 15, 2015 at 10:49:21 AM UTC-5, mrbob...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the British
>>>> chap, meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived from English
>>>> through the simple addition of an o at the end.
>>>
>>> In Mexico, it is slang for "Shortie". The Drug dealer who has been in
>>> and out of prison has this as his nickname. (And by the way, MOST
>>> Spanish nouns are certainly not derived from English.
>
>> Did anyone suppose they were?
>
> Yes. Up above mrbob said "Chapo" came from BrE "chap".

That doesn't indicate a belief that MOST Spanish nouns are derived from
English, just that one is.

--
athel

[Peter Moylan]

I must admit that I read it as "most Spanish nouns".

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Athel Cornish-Bowden skrev:

> That doesn't indicate a belief that MOST Spanish nouns are derived from
> English, just that one is.

I can't read this sentence otherwise:

Most Spanish nouns are derived from English
through the simple addition of an o at the end.

--
Bertel - stadig med Linux

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, January 10, 2016 at 7:36:21 AM UTC-5, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden skrev:

> > That doesn't indicate a belief that MOST Spanish nouns are derived from
> > English, just that one is.
>
> I can't read this sentence otherwise:
>
> Most Spanish nouns are derived from English
> through the simple addition of an o at the end.

It's a badly phrased observation that when Spanish borrows a noun from English,
it usually adds -o.

Speaking of whom, El Chapo was recaptured yesterday -- and today it came out
that he was interviewed (by Sean Penn?!) for *Rolling Stone* while he was on
the lam. There are some questions about the harboring of fugitives.

[Jerry Friedman]

On 1/10/16 6:34 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, January 10, 2016 at 7:36:21 AM UTC-5, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden skrev:
>
>>> That doesn't indicate a belief that MOST Spanish nouns are derived from
>>> English, just that one is.
>>
>> I can't read this sentence otherwise:
>>
>> Most Spanish nouns are derived from English
>> through the simple addition of an o at the end.
>
> It's a badly phrased observation that when Spanish borrows a noun from English,
> it usually adds -o.

...

Badly phrased and false.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-01-10 11:26:02 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 2016-Jan-10 22:14, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2016-01-09 12:34:43 +0000, Lewis said:
>>
>>> In message <dfbpm7...@mid.individual.net>
>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>>> On 2016-01-09 00:18:35 +0000, ge...@brice.com said:
>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, July 15, 2015 at 10:49:21 AM UTC-5, mrbob...@yahoo.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the British
>>>>>> chap, meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived from English
>>>>>> through the simple addition of an o at the end.

[ … ]

>>
>> That doesn't indicate a belief that MOST Spanish nouns are derived from
>> English, just that one is.
>
> I must admit that I read it as "most Spanish nouns".

All of you seem determined to read mrbob's sentence as meaning
something absurd. I read it to mean "Spanish nouns derived from English
are derived most often by the simple addition of an o at the end."

That is clumsy and inelegant, but it has the advantage of making sense
and being more or less true.

Maybe mrbob could tell us what he really meant.




--
athel

[Arcadian Rises]

It means approximately "shorty" in Spanish.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought that was obvious.




--
athel

[bill van]

In article <dfk7l0...@mid.individual.net>,

I thought it was obvious that's what was meant, but equally obvious
that's not what was written. This being aue, further discussion ensued.
--
bill

[bosod...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, July 15, 2015 at 8:49:21 AM UTC-7, mrbob...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the British chap, meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived from English through the simple addition of an o at the end.

El Chapo means... "laughable stature", "little guy" or "shortie" but if you prefer a ridiculous topical answer instead it means "billionaire" which if you pick 1,2,3,4,5,6 for POWER BALL by tomorrow and win you can be El Chapo too

[Peter T. Daniels]

Athel, however, is wilfully blind to much discussion on aue. As I've noted
many times before, he has no idea how often he articulates opinions identical
to mine.

[John Varela]

That's Spanglish and greatly to be condemned in some circles.

--
John Varela

[John Varela]

On Sun, 10 Jan 2016 15:59:21 UTC, Athel Cornish-Bowden

<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> On 2016-01-10 11:26:02 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
> > On 2016-Jan-10 22:14, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> On 2016-01-09 12:34:43 +0000, Lewis said:
> >>
> >>> In message <dfbpm7...@mid.individual.net>
> >>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> >>>> On 2016-01-09 00:18:35 +0000, ge...@brice.com said:
> >>>
> >>>>> On Wednesday, July 15, 2015 at 10:49:21 AM UTC-5, mrbob...@yahoo.com
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Someone asked me what El Chapo means. Chapo comes from the British
> >>>>>> chap, meaning fellow. Most Spanish nouns are derived from English
> >>>>>> through the simple addition of an o at the end.
>
> [ ]
> >>
> >> That doesn't indicate a belief that MOST Spanish nouns are derived from
> >> English, just that one is.
> >
> > I must admit that I read it as "most Spanish nouns".
>
> All of you seem determined to read mrbob's sentence as meaning
> something absurd. I read it to mean "Spanish nouns derived from English
> are derived most often by the simple addition of an o at the end."
>
> That is clumsy and inelegant, but it has the advantage of making sense
> and being more or less true.
>
> Maybe mrbob could tell us what he really meant.

Here are a few examples of Spanglish words with which I am familiar:

rentar
carro (alquiler un coche becomes rentar un carro)
elevador
grapefrut
mitin

--
John Varela

[John Varela]

On Sun, 10 Jan 2016 12:36:19 UTC, Bertel Lund Hansen
<gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden skrev:
>
> > That doesn't indicate a belief that MOST Spanish nouns are derived from
> > English, just that one is.
>
> I can't read this sentence otherwise:
>
> Most Spanish nouns are derived from English
> through the simple addition of an o at the end.

Me too.

--
John Varela

[Peter Moylan]

It might be what he meant, but it's not what he said.

[David Kleinecke]

Only one has added -o.

[RH Draney]

It's "carra" in this neighborhood, but whatever its gender, I'm not
entirely convinced that it came from English...far more likely that both
the Spanish word and English "car" were derived from a common ancestor....r

[Ross]

Gender-switch aside, my Spanish dictionary tells me that _carro_ can also
mean "cart, carriage" and other such things. That suggests that the
word is not a recent borrowing from English, but goes back to Latin
carrus/carrum. The specific recent extension to the automobile, however,
might owe something to English influence. It's similar to a standard
example of "lexical calquing", where Canadian French _gaz_ comes to
refer to motor fuel, whereas in Euro-French it's just a state of matter.
(Or so it was in my youth.)

[David Kleinecke]

In that case he posted five examples of Spanish borrowings from English
none of which were made by adding -o or -a.

We are left with no examples of borrowing into Spanish by adding -o.

[Lewis]

In message <n74f0...@news3.newsguy.com>

Nope, cara (I think it's a single r, but not sure) for car is definitely
Spanglish.


--
I want to secede, but I don't know what state I'm in. - Bart Simpson, 2012

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-01-13 03:06:44 +0000, RH Draney said:

> On 1/12/2016 6:29 PM, David Kleinecke wrote:
>> On Tuesday, January 12, 2016 at 4:11:31 PM UTC-8, John Varela wrote:
>>>
>>> Here are a few examples of Spanglish words with which I am familiar:
>>>
>>> rentar
>>> carro (alquiler un coche becomes rentar un carro)
>>> elevador
>>> grapefrut
>>> mitin
>>
>> Only one has added -o.

There are also "smog" and "ski", interesting examples of two-syllable
words with just one vowel each (but also sometimes written "esmog" and
"esquí").

>
> It's "carra" in this neighborhood,

That's a problem that arises when a language with gender adopts nouns
from one without. "Computer" is masculine in Chile ("computador"),
feminine in various other countries ("computadora"), and masculine
again in Spain, though they they use a word derived from French
("ordenador").

> but whatever its gender, I'm not entirely convinced that it came from
> English...far more likely that both the Spanish word and English "car"
> were derived from a common ancestor....r

The Dictionary of the Royal Academy agrees with you, saying that
"carro" derives from Latin "carrus".


--
athel

[John Varela]

That was my point.

--
John Varela

[The Grammer Genious]

On Wednesday, July 15, 2015 at 11:58:06 AM UTC-7, Traddict wrote:

> It looks like El Chapo vamoosed...

And now he's going to the hoosegow.

[Jerry Friedman]

On 1/12/16 9:08 PM, David Kleinecke wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 12, 2016 at 7:28:15 PM UTC-8, Ross wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 4:07:01 PM UTC+13, RH Draney wrote:
>>> On 1/12/2016 6:29 PM, David Kleinecke wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, January 12, 2016 at 4:11:31 PM UTC-8, John Varela wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are a few examples of Spanglish words with which I am familiar:
>>>>>
>>>>> rentar
>>>>> carro (alquiler un coche becomes rentar un carro)
>>>>> elevador
>>>>> grapefrut
>>>>> mitin
>>>>
>>>> Only one has added -o.
>>>
>>> It's "carra" in this neighborhood,

Interesting. "Carro" here, as in standard Spanish, for once. (Eleven?)

>>> but whatever its gender, I'm not
>>> entirely convinced that it came from English...far more likely that both
>>> the Spanish word and English "car" were derived from a common ancestor....r
>>
>> Gender-switch aside, my Spanish dictionary tells me that _carro_ can also
>> mean "cart, carriage" and other such things. That suggests that the
>> word is not a recent borrowing from English, but goes back to Latin
>> carrus/carrum. The specific recent extension to the automobile, however,
>> might owe something to English influence. It's similar to a standard
>> example of "lexical calquing", where Canadian French _gaz_ comes to
>> refer to motor fuel, whereas in Euro-French it's just a state of matter.
>> (Or so it was in my youth.)

What do you call it when a word is clearly inspired by another language
but is constructed in local form? For instance, the DRAE says Spanish
"automóvil" comes from "auto-" and "móvil", but I'd bet cinco centavos
that it was strongly suggested by, if not borrowed from, English or
French. Likewise the DRAE says John's example of "elevador" is from
Latin "elevator".

> In that case he posted five examples of Spanish borrowings from English
> none of which were made by adding -o or -a.
>
> We are left with no examples of borrowing into Spanish by adding -o.

The closest one I can think is New Mexican "grampo", also "grampa",
'grandpa'

Some borrowed nouns that didn't add -o:

bate ('bat' in sports)
béisbol
dólar
fútbol
gasolina
gol
jeans (Colombian) and bluyín (Venezuelan)
líder
pay (Mexican, as in pay de queso, 'cheesecake')
show, cho

Some Spanglish from Cobos's /Dictionary of New Mexico and Southern
Colorado Spanish/

bísquete
borde (as in "room and board" and "Board of Education")
brecas
chonque
cranque
crismes ('Christmas presents', also ¡Mis crismes! = Merry Christmas!)
curvias (of a woman)
escarfe
eslique ('slicker, raincoat')
espiche
garache
guiangue ('gang')
greve ('gravy')
parna ('partner, friend')
pene [*], nicle, daime, cuara (translations left as an exercise)
ranfla ('car', from the Nash Rambler)
raid
sanambiche (also sanamagán)
sugestión
tanape ('turnip')
traque (railroad only)

https://books.google.com/books?id=5V6pBQAAQBAJ

It's probably becoming clear that when you have to add a vowel, -o isn't
the usual one.

[*] Standard Spanish for "penis". I don't think most people around here
know that.

--
Jerry Friedman
¡Qué curvias, y yo sin brecas!

[The Grammer Genious]

On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 9:07:11 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
...

> What do you call it when a word is clearly inspired by another language

> but is constructed in local form? ...

When it is translated piece by piece or root by root, it's called a loan translation, or a calque. German is FULL of them, mostly from Latin. "Supervivere" (source of our "survive"), literally "over-live," in German is "überleben" (i.e., "to survive"). Germans who wrote in the Middle Ages generally knew Latin, so it was natural for them to coin new German words based on Latin.

The Russian word for "muscle" is мышца (myshtsa)- literally, little mouse, which is a calque on Latin musculus (also, literally, little mouse).

[Ross]

I don't know a handy term for it, but it's extremely common. My stock
example is "deconstruction", which is based on a French word, but
not borrowed as a whole, but reassembled from corresponding parts which
already existed in English. Actually I think the same thing
happened with "automobile". (OED calls it a loan from French, but
surely the first vowel would be /ou/ if it was a simple loan.)
A lot of the common European stock of Greco-Latin vocabulary
has spread around in this way.
Trask (Dict. of Hist.&Comp.Ling.) discusses this under "loan nativization".

[Jerry Friedman]

The OED doesn't help with the question of whether ancient Greek "mus",
meaning "mouse, muscle, mussel", is a calque from Latin or vice-versa or
neither. We have myasthenia, myoglobin, etc.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-01-14 05:06:39 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:

[ … ]

> pene [*], nicle, daime, cuara (translations left as an exercise)

[…]

>
> [*] Standard Spanish for "penis". I don't think most people around
> here know that.

I did, and I'd be prepared to bet that Rey did also.


--
athel

[Jerry Friedman]

Sorry, I meant the other "around here"--the people (not so many any
more) who say "pene" for "penny".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

In Chile the colloquial word (I'm not sure how rude it is) is "pico",
which elsewhere just means "peak", so the name of highest mountain in
the north of Tenerife, El Pico del Inglés, can incite ribaldry in Chile.


--
athel

[David Kleinecke]

It is my understanding that all these words for mice go back to a
PIE *mus (or like that - notations for PIE vary).

[Will Parsons]

I have little doubt that _mus_ and μῦς go back to a single PIE
ancestor in the primary meaning of "mouse". What may be more doubtul
is in the secondary meanings, such as "muscle". Here I would guess
there might be a transfer of meaning from one language to the other.

--
Will

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 1:17:59 PM UTC-7, Will Parsons wrote:
> On Thursday, 14 Jan 2016 1:52 PM -0500, David Kleinecke wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 9:58:47 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> On 1/13/16 10:36 PM, The Grammer Genious wrote:

[calques]

> >> > The Russian word for "muscle" is мышца (myshtsa)- literally, little mouse, which is a calque on Latin musculus (also, literally, little mouse).
> >>
> >> The OED doesn't help with the question of whether ancient Greek "mus",
> >> meaning "mouse, muscle, mussel", is a calque from Latin or vice-versa or
> >> neither. We have myasthenia, myoglobin, etc.
> >
> > It is my understanding that all these words for mice go back to a
> > PIE *mus (or like that - notations for PIE vary).
>
> I have little doubt that _mus_ and μῦς

and "mouse" and мышь

> go back to a single PIE
> ancestor in the primary meaning of "mouse". What may be more doubtul
> is in the secondary meanings, such as "muscle". Here I would guess
> there might be a transfer of meaning from one language to the other.

Yes, that's what I meant. I can't tell whether Latin influenced the
Greek meanings "muscle" and "mussel" or Greek influenced the Latin
meanings (which seems more likely). Etymonline.com doesn't address that
question but seems to hint that the verbal connection between muscles and
mice arose independently in various languages, including Arabic. It also
mentions that "lacerte", from the Latin word for lizard, meant muscle
in Middle English.

http://etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=muscle

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On 1/13/16 10:36 PM, The Grammer Genious wrote:

Thanks. I think of a calque as more "nativizing" than "automobile"
becoming "automóvil", but I don't know the official definition. Maybe
even using obvious cognates counts.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On 1/13/16 10:39 PM, Ross wrote:
> On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 6:07:11 PM UTC+13, Jerry Friedman wrote:

...

>> What do you call it when a word is clearly inspired by another language
>> but is constructed in local form? For instance, the DRAE says Spanish
>> "automóvil" comes from "auto-" and "móvil", but I'd bet cinco centavos
>> that it was strongly suggested by, if not borrowed from, English or
>> French. Likewise the DRAE says John's example of "elevador" is from
>> Latin "elevator".
>
> I don't know a handy term for it, but it's extremely common. My stock
> example is "deconstruction", which is based on a French word, but
> not borrowed as a whole, but reassembled from corresponding parts which
> already existed in English. Actually I think the same thing
> happened with "automobile". (OED calls it a loan from French, but
> surely the first vowel would be /ou/ if it was a simple loan.)

Wasn't it a loan of the spelling, not the sound? For instance, standard
Spanish took "gasoline" as "gasolina" and New Mexican Spanish took it as
"gaselín", but I'd say they were both borrowings.

> A lot of the common European stock of Greco-Latin vocabulary
> has spread around in this way.
> Trask (Dict. of Hist.&Comp.Ling.) discusses this under "loan nativization".

Thanks.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

The slogan is, "Calque is a loanword and loanword is a calque." Automóvil
is a loanword, not a calque.

[Jerry Friedman]

I was having trouble connecting those two statements till I looked the
slogan up. It would be clearer as "'Calque' is a loanword and 'loanword'
is a calque."

--
Jerry Friedman

[Ross]

On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 4:29:00 AM UTC+13, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 1/13/16 10:39 PM, Ross wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 6:07:11 PM UTC+13, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> ...
>
> >> What do you call it when a word is clearly inspired by another language
> >> but is constructed in local form? For instance, the DRAE says Spanish
> >> "automóvil" comes from "auto-" and "móvil", but I'd bet cinco centavos
> >> that it was strongly suggested by, if not borrowed from, English or
> >> French. Likewise the DRAE says John's example of "elevador" is from
> >> Latin "elevator".
> >
> > I don't know a handy term for it, but it's extremely common. My stock
> > example is "deconstruction", which is based on a French word, but
> > not borrowed as a whole, but reassembled from corresponding parts which
> > already existed in English. Actually I think the same thing
> > happened with "automobile". (OED calls it a loan from French, but
> > surely the first vowel would be /ou/ if it was a simple loan.)
>
> Wasn't it a loan of the spelling, not the sound? For instance, standard
> Spanish took "gasoline" as "gasolina" and New Mexican Spanish took it as
> "gaselín", but I'd say they were both borrowings.

Well, but with a difference. The NM-Sp one looks like a straight borrowing.
The Std-Sp -o- and -a suggest to me rather a re-assembly on the basis
of existing Spanish morphological patterns.

[Jerry Friedman]

I think the -o- just came from the English spelling. I agree about the -a.

--
Jerry Friedman

[John Varela]

On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 05:06:39 UTC, Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 1/12/16 9:08 PM, David Kleinecke wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 12, 2016 at 7:28:15 PM UTC-8, Ross wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 4:07:01 PM UTC+13, RH Draney wrote:
> >>> On 1/12/2016 6:29 PM, David Kleinecke wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, January 12, 2016 at 4:11:31 PM UTC-8, John Varela wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Here are a few examples of Spanglish words with which I am familiar:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> rentar
> >>>>> carro (alquiler un coche becomes rentar un carro)
> >>>>> elevador
> >>>>> grapefrut
> >>>>> mitin
> >>>>
> >>>> Only one has added -o.
> >>>
> >>> It's "carra" in this neighborhood,
>
> Interesting. "Carro" here, as in standard Spanish, for once. (Eleven?)

My Spanish-English dictionary tells me that "carro" for "automobile"
is American, which leads me to think it's Spanglish.

> >>> but whatever its gender, I'm not
> >>> entirely convinced that it came from English...far more likely that both
> >>> the Spanish word and English "car" were derived from a common ancestor....r
> >>
> >> Gender-switch aside, my Spanish dictionary tells me that _carro_ can also
> >> mean "cart, carriage" and other such things. That suggests that the
> >> word is not a recent borrowing from English, but goes back to Latin
> >> carrus/carrum. The specific recent extension to the automobile, however,
> >> might owe something to English influence. It's similar to a standard
> >> example of "lexical calquing", where Canadian French _gaz_ comes to
> >> refer to motor fuel, whereas in Euro-French it's just a state of matter.
> >> (Or so it was in my youth.)
>
> What do you call it when a word is clearly inspired by another language
> but is constructed in local form? For instance, the DRAE says Spanish
> "automóvil" comes from "auto-" and "móvil", but I'd bet cinco centavos
> that it was strongly suggested by, if not borrowed from, English or
> French. Likewise the DRAE says John's example of "elevador" is from
> Latin "elevator".

In Spain the word for "elevator" is "ascensor". It may be that
"elevador" is used in Spain but I don't recall encountering it
there. There's a lot more Spanglish in this hemisphere than in the
other one. It doesn't follow that every word that's used in Latin
America that sounds like a corresponding English word is Spanglish,
but if the word isn't common in Spain then it seems likely to me
that it is.

--
John Varela

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Not just in Spain; it's the only word I've ever heard for it.

> It may be that
> "elevador" is used in Spain but I don't recall encountering it
> there. There's a lot more Spanglish in this hemisphere than in the
> other one. It doesn't follow that every word that's used in Latin
> America that sounds like a corresponding English word is Spanglish,
> but if the word isn't common in Spain then it seems likely to me
> that it is.


--

athel