Soupcon

[Vince Gibboni]

I recently noticed that every time I run across the would "soupcon"
(which, oddly enough, seems to be fairly regularly) there always
seems to be this bizarre comma-like thread of ink dangling from the
lower curve of the "c". At first, I thought it was a series of
coincidental misprints, but now, after careful reflection, I've come
to the realization that it is, in fact, some sort of conspiracy.

Anyway, does anyone know what's going on here ? There are lots of
perfectly good English words with "c"'s in them, why does soupcon
seem to be the only one with a mutant "c" ?

--
vi...@gda.cadence.com

Go play in the blender.
- Garfield

[Emory F. Bunn]

In article <1992Nov24.2...@Cadence.COM> vi...@gda.cadence.com (Vince Gibboni) writes:

(Stuff deleted.)

> Anyway, does anyone know what's going on here ? There are lots of
> perfectly good English words with "c"'s in them, why does soupcon
> seem to be the only one with a mutant "c" ?

The mark under the c is a cedilla. It's used in French to indicate
that the c is soft when it would otherwise be hard. C is hard in
French when followed by A,O, our U, so without the cedilla, "soupcon" would
be pronounced "soupkon."

There are probably other examples of cedillas in French words imported
into English, although at the moment I can't think of any except "limacon,"
which is the name of some curve.

-Ted

[Brian D Diehm]

The mark you are seeing is called a cedilla (where the "ll" is given a
Spanish pronunciation "yuh" and the initial "c" is pronounced "s").

It is used in French to indicate that a "c" should be pronounced "s."

However, for some reason this does *not* mean that the "c" in "cedilla"
should have a cedilla. I think.

The reason you see it in "soupcon" is because that is French word. It has
not yet made it into the English language, so the original punctuation is
retained. And validly enough, people are afraid that the pronunciation will
become incorrectly anglicized, making it "soop-kawn" instead of "soop-sawn."

And, yes, its French origins are a dead giveaway that this is part of the
world-wide Gallic conspiracy. ;-} (That's a wink, Jacques!)

-Brian
--
Brian Diehm
Tektronix, Inc. (503) 627-3437 bri...@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM
P.O. Box 500, M/S 19-286
Beaverton, OR 97077

[Ron Newman]

"Facade" is another English word that is often written
with a cedilla under the c.

--
Ron Newman rne...@bbn.com

[Ron Newman]

In article <77...@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM>, bri...@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Brian D Diehm) writes:

|> The mark you are seeing is called a cedilla (where the "ll" is given a
|> Spanish pronunciation "yuh" and the initial "c" is pronounced "s").
|>
|> It is used in French to indicate that a "c" should be pronounced "s."
|>
|> However, for some reason this does *not* mean that the "c" in "cedilla"
|> should have a cedilla. I think.

In French, the letter "c" is normally pronounced "s" if it precedes
e, i, or y; "k" otherwise. (This is usually true in English too.)

So "cedilla" does not need a cedilla of its own, because the
initial "c" is already pronounced like an "s" under the usual rules.

--
Ron Newman rne...@bbn.com

[Kivi Shapiro]

In French, as in English, the letter "c" changes its value depending on
the following vowel. It is soft if followed by "e," "i," or "y," hard
otherwise. The cedilla is used to indicate that a "c" followed by one
of the other letters is required to remain soft, so you find it in words
like soupcon or garcon. It is, of course, eliminated in words like
flocon ("Flocons de mais" is the French for "Corn Flakes," as every
Canadian knows), which is intended to be pronounced with a hard "c."
--
- Kivi jksh...@descartes.uwaterloo.ca
This message is in the public domain.
HI! I'm a signature virus. Copy me into yours and join the fun!

[the Crisco Kid]

In article <1992Nov24.2...@Cadence.COM> vi...@gda.cadence.com (Vince Gibboni) writes:

> I recently noticed that every time I run across the would "soupcon"
> (which, oddly enough, seems to be fairly regularly) there always
> seems to be this bizarre comma-like thread of ink dangling from the
> lower curve of the "c". At first, I thought it was a series of
> coincidental misprints, but now, after careful reflection, I've come
> to the realization that it is, in fact, some sort of conspiracy.

No, it's a morphology. The 'thread of ink' is technically known as a
cedilla, a diacritical mark found in such languages as French, in which
the word you refer to means "suspicion" - similarly to the English "hint"
in "a hint of ...". In French, c-cedilla is pronounced as an 's'.

> Anyway, does anyone know what's going on here ? There are lots of
> perfectly good English words with "c"'s in them, why does soupcon
> seem to be the only one with a mutant "c" ?

Racks brain, racks brain... I can't think of another example. It's
simply that some person, thinking that French words were grander than
English, appropriated the word, and it just hasn't had time to become
either spelled "soupson" or pronounced "soupkon" - or, better still,
abandoned :)

Kay
--
6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
Kay Dekker, Dept of Industrial Design, Coventry University, Coventry UK
37 Old Winnings Road, Keresley Village, Coventry |B0 f t+ g++ k++! s+ e r p!
Phone: +44 203 838668 (work) +44 203 337865 (home) |Deflowerer-of-innocents

[Eamonn McManus]

bri...@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM writes:
> The mark you are seeing is called a cedilla (where the "ll" is given a
> Spanish pronunciation "yuh" and the initial "c" is pronounced "s").

I see no reason to start pulling in fancy Spanish sounds to pronounce
this word. It is pronounced as written, ce-dil-la, with the accent on
the second syllable. I've never heard anyone pronounce it a
l'espagnole.

jksh...@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Kivi Shapiro) writes:
> The cedilla is used to indicate that a "c" followed by one
> of the other letters is required to remain soft, so you find it in words
> like soupcon or garcon. It is, of course, eliminated in words like
> flocon ("Flocons de mais" is the French for "Corn Flakes," as every
> Canadian knows), which is intended to be pronounced with a hard "c."

Oddly enough, Corn Flakes are called "Corn Flakes" here in France.

,
Eamonn

[Roger Lustig]

In article <1992Nov24.2...@Cadence.COM> vi...@gda.cadence.com (Vince Gibboni) writes:

It's so you don't confuse it with "soupcan," a rather larger measure.
(especially important for recipes that call for a soupcon of ginger
or the like)

8-)

All seriousness aside, however, this is a French loanword meaning "hint."
It's also *pronounced* as in French, i.e., Soo-sawn (the final 'n' almost
disappearing). Now, French is pronounced more-or-less phonetically,
i.e., there are pretty strict rules as to what combinations of letters
mean what sound. the letter 'o' is a hardening vowel (informal terminology);
that is, a consonant before it will be pronounced hard. That would
make the 'c' in 'soupcon' take the 'k' sound. (a and u also harden;
e and i soften. This holds in Italian as well!) In French, to get
a soft 'c' in front of a hardening vowel, you need to put a cedille (the
little hook) under the 'c'. In theory, it's actually a tiny 's'.

Another loanword, albeit a much rarer one, is apercu. That one takes
a c-cedille as well.

Roger

[Mandar M. Mirashi]

In article <1992Nov25....@Princeton.EDU> ro...@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>
>All seriousness aside, however, this is a French loanword meaning "hint."
>

>Roger

I think that the more common meaning of soupcon is "suspicion". The infinitive
of soupcon is soupconner - to suspect.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Space the final frontier" - Star Trek.
"Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong"
- The Beatles

[HER...@auvm.american.edu]

In article <ByD1x...@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>,

mmmi...@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) says:
>
>In article <1992Nov25....@Princeton.EDU> ro...@astro.princeton.edu
>(Roger Lustig) writes:
>>
>>All seriousness aside, however, this is a French loanword meaning "hint."

>I think that the more common meaning of soupcon is "suspicion". The infinitive
>of soupcon is soupconner - to suspect.

Perhaps in French, but as a loan-word in English, the meaning is
generally "hint". It's a fairly silly borrowing, actually, and is
usually used only in talking or writing about cooking or food.
But of course Mandar wouldn't know that; he's not a *native*
speaker. He went and looked this up in a French dictionary,
after all, not an English one.

H.

Herschel Browne
"The" American University

[Mandar M. Mirashi]

I did not need to look up a French dictionary. I remember having learnt
the word when I studied French in high school. Oh and btw, if you look
up your very American "Webster" dictionary, you would find suspicion as
the primary meaning. I think that I once came across this word in a
detective novel where the connotation was "suspicion".

[Roger Lustig]

In article <ByEqn...@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmi...@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>In article <92332.215...@auvm.american.edu> <HER...@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>>In article <ByD1x...@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>,
>>mmmi...@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) says:

>>>In article <1992Nov25....@Princeton.EDU> ro...@astro.princeton.edu
>>>(Roger Lustig) writes:

>>>>All seriousness aside, however, this is a French loanword meaning "hint."

>>>I think that the more common meaning of soupcon is "suspicion". The infinitive
>>>of soupcon is soupconner - to suspect.

>>Perhaps in French, but as a loan-word in English, the meaning is
>>generally "hint". It's a fairly silly borrowing, actually, and is
>>usually used only in talking or writing about cooking or food.
>>But of course Mandar wouldn't know that; he's not a *native*
>>speaker. He went and looked this up in a French dictionary,
>>after all, not an English one.

>I did not need to look up a French dictionary.

Correct: you needed to look it up in an *English* dictionary.

>I remember having learnt the word when I studied French in high school.

But you didn't learn it when studying *Englis,* and we were discussing
its English meaning.

>Oh and btw, if you look
>up your very American "Webster" dictionary, you would find suspicion as
>the primary meaning.

Which Webster? There are dozens of dictionaries that call themselves
that.

>I think that I once came across this word in a
>detective novel where the connotation was "suspicion".

Well, that settles it, then. You think you remember reading something
in a detective novel. That's as good as *ten* dictionaries -- one
possible, unidentified cite from Mandar.

Roger

[Frank R.A.J. Maloney]

In article <92332.215...@auvm.american.edu> <HER...@auvm.american.edu> writes:

You're right that the connotations in English of soupcon
limit the usage to cookery, and even there I think it's best
not used too seriously. The very first place I ever heard it
was on the 60s Galloping Gourmet TV series with Graham Kerr,
who smirked hideously everytime he said it. (He also thought
it was pretty hilarious to say beurre in an exaggerated
manner instead of butter.)

As for its meaning as "suspicion", I have heard cooks speak
of "just a suspicion of sherry", even though less commonly
than "just a hint of sherry". So the translations of soupcon
can be interchangeably with the word itself, and possibly
with less irony and less selfconsciously.

--
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
"Well, I'm a little muddled." -- Glinda

[Mandar M. Mirashi]

In article <1992Nov28.1...@Princeton.EDU> ro...@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <ByEqn...@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmi...@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>>In article <92332.215...@auvm.american.edu> <HER...@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>>>In article <ByD1x...@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>,
>>>mmmi...@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) says:
>
>>>>In article <1992Nov25....@Princeton.EDU> ro...@astro.princeton.edu
>>>>(Roger Lustig) writes:
>
>>>>>All seriousness aside, however, this is a French loanword meaning "hint."
>
>>>>I think that the more common meaning of soupcon is "suspicion". The infinitive
>>>>of soupcon is soupconner - to suspect.
>
>>>Perhaps in French, but as a loan-word in English, the meaning is
>>>generally "hint". It's a fairly silly borrowing, actually, and is
>>>usually used only in talking or writing about cooking or food.
>>>But of course Mandar wouldn't know that; he's not a *native*
>>>speaker. He went and looked this up in a French dictionary,
>>>after all, not an English one.
>
>>I did not need to look up a French dictionary.
>
>Correct: you needed to look it up in an *English* dictionary.
>
>>I remember having learnt the word when I studied French in high school.
>

>But you didn't learn it when studying *English* and we were discussing

>its English meaning.
>
>>Oh and btw, if you look
>>up your very American "Webster" dictionary, you would find suspicion as
>>the primary meaning.
>
>Which Webster? There are dozens of dictionaries that call themselves
>that.
>

Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary - Deluxe Second Edition.
======================================================================
DW 20 19.
Library of Congress Catalog Card Number : 83-42537
ISBN 0-671-41819-X
Published by New World Dictionaries / Simon and Schuster.

Look up Page 1734, column 2, third last word from the bottom.

>>I think that I once came across this word in a
>>detective novel where the connotation was "suspicion".
>
>Well, that settles it, then. You think you remember reading something
>in a detective novel. That's as good as *ten* dictionaries -- one
>possible, unidentified cite from Mandar.
>
>Roger
>
>

Unfortunately, I cannot recollect the name of the novel or the author.
Come on Roger. It isn't possible to remember the names of every novel
and author you have read! If I come across a similar usage again, I
will note it down.

[Mark Brader]

> I recently noticed that every time I run across the would "soupcon"
> (which, oddly enough, seems to be fairly regularly) there always
> seems to be this bizarre comma-like thread of ink dangling from the

> lower curve of the "c". ...

Several people have now mentioned that that "thread of ink" is a
cedilla. Nobody, however, has mentioned its etymology, which I think
is interesting. Recall the Greek letter resembling Z is called zeta,
and that this gives us the English "zed", which is still the usual
term outside of the US. Well, words resembling "zed" are also used
in some other languages, including Spanish. Add to this base the
Spanish diminutive ending -illa, and you end up with something close
enough to cedilla.

But why is it a "little z", and why Spanish? Because the mark formerly
*was* written as a little z, and formerly was used in Spanish. Quite
a few of the accents attached to letters in French and other languages
originated as small letters; for another Spanish example, the tilde
was originally a little N. Anyway, this origin accounts for the Spanish
ll pronunciation sometimes used in the word. My dictionaries show this
ll or something like it being used in French but not in English. But
when I learned French, we used it in English as well; we said "se DEE ya".

Spanish doesn't use cedillas today, but Portuguese, Romanian, and
Turkish do. The two latter languages use them under s and/or t as
well as and/or instead of under c. However, I can't think of any
loanwords used in English from any of these languages which contain a
cedilla. Placenames with it, such as Bucuresti and Mocambique, have
been anglicized: Bucharest and Mozambique. ' '
--
Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto "... pure English is de rigueur"
utzoo!sq!msb, m...@sq.com -- Manchester Guardian Weekly

This article is in the public domain.

[John A Lambert]

--
`facade' is a further example.

Since English does not commonly use accents, you just have learn that the `c'
in these words is pronounced `s' inspite of not being followed by an `e' or an
`i'.

John A Lambert
Centre for Literary and Linguistic Computing
The University of Newcastle NSW 2308 Australia
cc...@cc.newcastle.edu.au

[Margaret Mikulska]

In article <1992Nov29....@sq.sq.com> m...@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
>
>Spanish doesn't use cedillas today, but Portuguese, Romanian, and
>Turkish do. The two latter languages use them under s and/or t as
>well as and/or instead of under c. However, I can't think of any
>loanwords used in English from any of these languages which contain a
>cedilla. Placenames with it, such as Bucuresti and Mocambique, have
>been anglicized: Bucharest and Mozambique. ' '

From Portuguese: the curacao liqueur.
'
-Margaret

[Eamonn McManus]

ro...@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>All seriousness aside, however, this is a French loanword meaning "hint."
>It's also *pronounced* as in French, i.e., Soo-sawn (the final 'n' almost
>disappearing).

I think we have general agreement that the word "hint" suffices
everywhere that one might use "soupcon". Its current use seems to be
confined to humorous pretension. But if one is going to be
pretentious, one should make the effort to get it right; this probably
means doing better than an "almost disappearing" n for the nasal "on",
and certainly does not include dropping the p for no reason.

,
Eamonn

[Eamonn McManus]

m...@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
>Anyway, this origin accounts for the Spanish
>ll pronunciation sometimes used in the word. My dictionaries show this
>ll or something like it being used in French but not in English. But
>when I learned French, we used it in English as well; we said "se DEE ya".

This was not my experience, and it still seems bizarre to me to use
the Spanish pronunciation of the word when learning French. I would
have thought it more logical either to use the simple English
pronunciation "se DIL la" or to import the French word "cedille".

,
Eamonn

[Roger Lustig]

Sure. But if we're going to be humorous *and* pretentious, why not go
all the way to silliness and just say "soup can"? (Of course, one day
we'll wind up with 10.5 oz. of lemon juice in our tea, but it will have
been worth it.)

The Campbell's is coming!
Roger

[bruce bowser]

These days, that might be a gathering of chefs and restaurants at a convention center.