"Feels like -2C˚ "

[occam]

The weather app on my phone shows the temperature in any given city,
even showing its evolution by the hour. I assume these are real
temperatures from meteorological services somewhere not too far.

In addition to the real temperature (degrees C, F), the temperature is
accompanied by a subjective "Feels like -2C˚" or whatever. This varies
by a degree or two, depending on ambient conditions like wind, humidity,
sunlight, fog etc.

How - and by whom - are these subjective temperatures arrived at? Is
there a branch of meteorology where someone sits outside, exposed to the
elements, holding a thermometer and overriding the thermometer reading
according to the shrinkage of his/her member?

[Jerry Friedman]

"Apparent temperature" seems to be a useful search term. You could look
at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparent_temperature

The U.S. uses "heat index" and "wind chill".

--
Jerry Friedman

[phil]

I don't know the answer to your question, but you've touched on a pet
peeve of mine. Surely the idea of 'wind chill' factor and 'feels like'
temperature is all arse-about-face. I'd say that in still conditions
there's a 'lack of wind' warming factor, whatever we should call it, and
the 'feels like' temperature is warmer than the actual measured
temperature. With sufficient wind, zero degrees will actually feel like
zero degrees.

I suppose it might feel even colder if one was sweaty and naked.

[J. J. Lodder]

Heat index is determined by the heat loss rate.
So at a subjective temperature of -2 degrees,
at some humidity and wind speed, your heat loss
will be the same as at the actual temperature
with standard conditions.

There is some variation, because it is a bit model dependent.
You are not quite a water-filed bottle wrapped in a wet blanket.

Since it is about heat loss it is not just about feeling fine.
In extreme conditions it relates directly to survivability,

Jan

[Adam Funk]

On 2023-03-16, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>
>> The weather app on my phone shows the temperature in any given city,
>> even showing its evolution by the hour. I assume these are real
>> temperatures from meteorological services somewhere not too far.
>>
>> In addition to the real temperature (degrees C, F), the temperature is
>> accompanied by a subjective "Feels like -2C˚" or whatever. This varies
>> by a degree or two, depending on ambient conditions like wind, humidity,
>> sunlight, fog etc.
>>
>> How - and by whom - are these subjective temperatures arrived at? Is
>> there a branch of meteorology where someone sits outside, exposed to the
>> elements, holding a thermometer and overriding the thermometer reading
>> according to the shrinkage of his/her member?
>
> Heat index is determined by the heat loss rate.
> So at a subjective temperature of -2 degrees,
> at some humidity and wind speed, your heat loss
> will be the same as at the actual temperature
> with standard conditions.
>
> There is some variation, because it is a bit model dependent.
> You are not quite a water-filed bottle wrapped in a wet blanket.

It simplifies the calculations if you assume a cylindrical human.

> Since it is about heat loss it is not just about feeling fine.
> In extreme conditions it relates directly to survivability,
>
> Jan
>
>
>
>

--
Nam Sibbyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla
pendere, et cum illi pueri dicerent: beable beable beable; respondebat
illa: doidy doidy doidy. ---plorkwort

[Peter T. Daniels]

Our weatherpeople used to call it the "temperature-humidity index"
(that was a summertime thing), but now they use the "feels like"
number for both it and wind chill. It's bizarre when it occasionally
says "temperature 37, feels like 35." The degrees-C people wouldn't
even register that as a difference (2 C).

More annoying is not knowing where the readings are taken. NYC's
come from the landmark Belvedere Castle in Central Park, and they
also regularly give the readings at the three major airports, but
Jersey City has three "arms" -- Downtown, which is at sea level on
the Hudson; The Heights, which is atop the Palisades ridge; and
the neighborhoods south of the Heights, which are flat but inland.
The three areas have three mini-climates, and when the computer
gives me the current temperature, I don't know whether it applies
to me!

[J. J. Lodder]

Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:

> On 2023-03-16, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> >
> >> The weather app on my phone shows the temperature in any given city,
> >> even showing its evolution by the hour. I assume these are real
> >> temperatures from meteorological services somewhere not too far.
> >>
> >> In addition to the real temperature (degrees C, F), the temperature is
> >> accompanied by a subjective "Feels like -2C˚" or whatever. This varies
> >> by a degree or two, depending on ambient conditions like wind, humidity,
> >> sunlight, fog etc.
> >>
> >> How - and by whom - are these subjective temperatures arrived at? Is
> >> there a branch of meteorology where someone sits outside, exposed to the
> >> elements, holding a thermometer and overriding the thermometer reading
> >> according to the shrinkage of his/her member?
> >
> > Heat index is determined by the heat loss rate.
> > So at a subjective temperature of -2 degrees,
> > at some humidity and wind speed, your heat loss
> > will be the same as at the actual temperature
> > with standard conditions.
> >
> > There is some variation, because it is a bit model dependent.
> > You are not quite a water-filed bottle wrapped in a wet blanket.
>
> It simplifies the calculations if you assume a cylindrical human.

Indeed, humans are not like cows,

Jan

[Rich Ulrich]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 13:42:02 +0000, phil <ph...@anonymous.invalid>
wrote:

>On 16/03/2023 12:59, occam wrote:
>> The weather app on my phone shows the temperature in any given city,
>> even showing its evolution by the hour. I assume these are real
>> temperatures from meteorological services somewhere not too far.
>>
>> In addition to the real temperature (degrees C, F), the temperature is

>> accompanied by a subjective "Feels like -2C?" or whatever. This varies

>> by a degree or two, depending on ambient conditions like wind, humidity,
>> sunlight, fog etc.
>>
>> How - and by whom - are these subjective temperatures arrived at? Is
>> there a branch of meteorology where someone sits outside, exposed to the
>> elements, holding a thermometer and overriding the thermometer reading
>> according to the shrinkage of his/her member?
>
>I don't know the answer to your question, but you've touched on a pet
>peeve of mine. Surely the idea of 'wind chill' factor and 'feels like'
>temperature is all arse-about-face. I'd say that in still conditions
>there's a 'lack of wind' warming factor, whatever we should call it, and
>the 'feels like' temperature is warmer than the actual measured
>temperature. With sufficient wind, zero degrees will actually feel like
>zero degrees.

IIRC from when I read up on those (years ago), Wind chill can have
a baseline assumption for 'windless' of 2 or 3 mph (3 to 5 kph)
breeze -- like, a slow walking speed.

>
>I suppose it might feel even colder if one was sweaty and naked.

The heat indices make use of the body's skin temperature, about
92 F (33 C), as a base for the ability to shed excess heat. If the
wind and humidity don't let you shed heat, then you get hotter and
hotter and die.

--
Rich Ulrich

[lar3ryca]

It's just another way of looking at it. With no wind, and within certain
ranges of humidity, zero degrees 'feels like' zero degrees. In another
way of saying it, there is no 'wind chill'.

If I am about to go outside in the winter, I check the temperature to
help me decide what to wear. Let's assume it's -10C, and I am just going
to put the wheelie garbage bin out. I am wearing indoor clothing, so I
just go out in those clothes. No big problem, unless it is windy.

If it's very windy, I might stand a chance of frostbite within a few
minutes.

So, should the weather folks tell me what the 'lack of wind warming
factor' is? If so, how would the phrase it in a useful manner.

The thing that really annoys me, is the number of folks that think the
'wind chill' applies to things that are not being heated. I know people
who would swear that a tractor at -20, with no wind is easier to start
than one at -20 sitting in a 50km wind.

> I suppose it might feel even colder if one was sweaty and naked.

If sweaty, of course.

If naked, the overall feeling would too, but for any given patch of
exposed skin, the feeling, and the possible damage caused would be the same.

--
Which side of a chicken has more feathers?
The outside.

[J. J. Lodder]

Indeed, I have seen a commercial for anti-freeze saying:
buy our -40 brand, because the expected wind chill,

Jan

[Peter Moylan]

On 17/03/23 07:53, lar3ryca wrote:
>
> The thing that really annoys me, is the number of folks that think the
> 'wind chill' applies to things that are not being heated. I know people
> who would swear that a tractor at -20, with no wind is easier to start
> than one at -20 sitting in a 50km wind.

Perhaps the wind blows out the pilot light.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Sam Plusnet]

On 17-Mar-23 1:19, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 17/03/23 07:53, lar3ryca wrote:
>>
>> The thing that really annoys me, is the number of folks that think the
>> 'wind chill' applies to things that are not being heated. I know people
>> who would swear that a tractor at -20, with no wind is easier to start
>> than one at -20 sitting in a 50km wind.
>
> Perhaps the wind blows out the pilot light.

If it's that windy, you need a heavier pilot.

--
Sam Plusnet

[occam]

On 16/03/2023 21:53, lar3ryca wrote:
> The thing that really annoys me, is the number of folks that think the
> 'wind chill' applies to things that are not being heated. I know people
> who would swear that a tractor at -20, with no wind is easier to start
> than one at -20 sitting in a 50km wind.

It is, for the poor farmer who is starting the tractor. <end smile>

Is there a serious point here though? If a surface (of an animate or
inanimate body) has moisture on its surface, the wind will evaporate it
faster. The loss of energy from the body will be faster with wind than
without wind? (Think of it as the Bernoulli effect of temperature.)

[soup]

On 16/03/2023 13:42, phil wrote:
> I'd say that in still conditions
> there's a 'lack of wind' warming factor, whatever we should call it, and
> the 'feels like' temperature is warmer than the actual measured
> temperature.

When I was at school (long time ago so memory may be a bit weak) we were
taught about temperatures being taken in side a louvered box.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/A15D/production/_119490314_weatherstation.jpg

This box was louvered to allow free movement of air but NOT be affected
by wind ,it was also painted white so it wasn't heated up by sunlight .

So the temperature given IS the one without wind and out of direct
sunlight. Then wind humidity etc are considered, to give "feels like"
temperatures.

[soup]

On 16/03/2023 15:41, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> Indeed, humans are not like cow.

Tell that to some of the girlfriends I've had.

[J. J. Lodder]

Well, yes, but wet tractors have a very finite supply of water.
Humans otoh...

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

You shouldn't even have considered a spherical one,

Jan

[HVS]

On 16 Mar 2023, occam wrote

> The weather app on my phone shows the temperature in any given
> city, even showing its evolution by the hour. I assume these are
> real temperatures from meteorological services somewhere not too
> far.
>
> In addition to the real temperature (degrees C, F), the

> temperature is accompanied by a subjective "Feels like -2CËš" or

> whatever. This varies by a degree or two, depending on ambient
> conditions like wind, humidity, sunlight, fog etc.
>
> How - and by whom - are these subjective temperatures arrived at?
> Is there a branch of meteorology where someone sits outside,
> exposed to the elements, holding a thermometer and overriding the
> thermometer reading according to the shrinkage of his/her member?

LMGTFY, on the off chance that you seriously want to know how it's
caluclated....

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/learn-about/weather/types-of-
weather/wind/wind-chill-factor

https://sciencing.com/calculate-wind-chill-factor-5981683.html


The US National Weather Service has a "Wind Chill Chart" at
https://www.weather.gov/safety/cold-faqs, and also gives the formula:

(quote)

Wind chill (ºF) = 35.74 + 0.6215T - 35.75(V^0.16) + 0.4275T(V^0.16)

Where: T = Air Temperature (F)
V = Wind Speed (mph)
^ = raised to a power (exponential)

Wind chill Temperature is only defined for temperatures at or below 50°
F and wind speeds above 3 mph. Bright sunshine may increase the wind
chill temperature by 10°F to 18°F.

(end quote)

[HVS]

On 16 Mar 2023, lar3ryca wrote

> On 2023-03-16 07:42, phil wrote:
>> On 16/03/2023 12:59, occam wrote:
>>> The weather app on my phone shows the temperature in any given
>>> city, even showing its evolution by the hour. I assume these are
>>> real temperatures from meteorological services somewhere not too
>>> far.
>>>
>>> In addition to the real temperature (degrees C, F), the

>>> temperature is accompanied by a subjective "Feels like -2CËš" or

It's addressed by the US weather service in a FAQ:

(quote)

–Can wind chill impact my car's radiator or exposed water pipe?

The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car
radiators and water pipes, is to shorten the amount of time for the
object to cool. The inanimate object will not cool below the actual air
temperature. For example, if the temperature outside is -5°F and the
wind chill temperature is -31°F, then your car's radiator will not drop
lower than -5°F.

(end quote)

--
Cheers, Harvey

[occam]

On 17/03/2023 17:37, HVS wrote:
> On 16 Mar 2023, occam wrote
>
>> The weather app on my phone shows the temperature in any given
>> city, even showing its evolution by the hour. I assume these are
>> real temperatures from meteorological services somewhere not too
>> far.
>>
>> In addition to the real temperature (degrees C, F), the
>> temperature is accompanied by a subjective "Feels like -2CËš" or
>> whatever. This varies by a degree or two, depending on ambient
>> conditions like wind, humidity, sunlight, fog etc.
>>
>> How - and by whom - are these subjective temperatures arrived at?
>> Is there a branch of meteorology where someone sits outside,
>> exposed to the elements, holding a thermometer and overriding the
>> thermometer reading according to the shrinkage of his/her member?
>
> LMGTFY, on the off chance that you seriously want to know how it's
> caluclated....

Thanks. All nice and well. However, since we are in an English Language
usage group, let me ask you:

Would you say 'feels like' expresses the same thing as 'wind chill
factor'? Not in my English. One is a subjective feeling, while the
other is a pretend-science expression.

From the Met Office page:

"There is no official definition of wind chill and definitions vary
globally, dependent on how it is measured. In the UK, a system called
the Joint Action Group for Temp Indices is used to realistically measure
wind chill.

I rest my case, M'lud.

[Sam Plusnet]

It isn't a good idea to keep your Campbell–Stokes recorder in that box.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell–Stokes_recorder

I was always fascinated by these things, whenever I visited the seaside
as a kid.

--
Sam Plusnet

[occam]

On 16/03/2023 14:42, phil wrote:

> I'd say that in still conditions there's a 'lack of wind' warming
> factor, whatever we should call it, and the 'feels like' temperature is
> warmer than the actual measured temperature.

I agree. One clear example is in very hot climes, 40C (dry) feels less
hot than 40C + humidity, wind conditions being equal.

[J. J. Lodder]

It isn't really the real temperature.
The point of it is that the errors have become standardised
in order to make readings at different stations comparable,

Jan

[phil]

The shortening is quite noticeable, too. Back in the days when I drove
old bangers (AmE 'clunkers' I believe) and was too poor/mean to buy
antifreeze, I didn't have any problems with the radiators freezing, even
in temperatures down to perhaps -5 degrees, except on a few occasions
when the low temperature was accompanied by a steady wind.

[Jerry Friedman]

"Banger" would be easily understood here, like "beater". Maybe not so
easily if it meant a sausage.

> and was too poor/mean to buy
> antifreeze, I didn't have any problems with the radiators freezing, even
> in temperatures down to perhaps -5 degrees, except on a few occasions
> when the low temperature was accompanied by a steady wind.

Yeah, when I lived in Illinois, my car had trouble at temperatures like
that.... Oh, you mean Celsius?

--
Jerry Friedman is about to be topped by Larry.

[J. J. Lodder]

HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:

> On 16 Mar 2023, lar3ryca wrote
>
> > On 2023-03-16 07:42, phil wrote:
> >> On 16/03/2023 12:59, occam wrote:
> >>> The weather app on my phone shows the temperature in any given
> >>> city, even showing its evolution by the hour. I assume these are
> >>> real temperatures from meteorological services somewhere not too
> >>> far.
> >>>
> >>> In addition to the real temperature (degrees C, F), the

> >>> temperature is accompanied by a subjective "Feels like -2CË˚" or

> ˆCan wind chill impact my car's radiator or exposed water pipe?

>
> The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car
> radiators and water pipes, is to shorten the amount of time for the
> object to cool. The inanimate object will not cool below the actual air
> temperature. For example, if the temperature outside is -5°F and the
> wind chill temperature is -31°F, then your car's radiator will not drop
> lower than -5°F.
>
> (end quote)

Which is not quite correct.
While the water is evaporating (or sublimating)
the water pipe can be somewhat colder than the air temperature.

OTOH spraying your engine with water and allowing it to freeze
might save it, just like those fruit blossoms in spring.

Jan

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 18.03.2023 kl. 11.42 skrev J. J. Lodder:

>> temperature. For example, if the temperature outside is -5°F and the
>> wind chill temperature is -31°F, then your car's radiator will not drop
>> lower than -5°F.
>>
>> (end quote)
>
> Which is not quite correct.
> While the water is evaporating (or sublimating)
> the water pipe can be somewhat colder than the air temperature.

It's a well-known method for cooling your beer at the beach to dip a
paper or cloth in the water and wrap it around the bottle. The wind will
cool the beer well below air temperature.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 8:36:34 PM UTC-4, phil wrote:

> The shortening is quite noticeable, too. Back in the days when I drove
> old bangers (AmE 'clunkers' I believe) and was too poor/mean to buy

possible, but "beaters" is more likely

[TonyCooper]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 00:36:30 +0000, phil <ph...@anonymous.invalid>
wrote:

>
>The shortening is quite noticeable, too. Back in the days when I drove
>old bangers (AmE 'clunkers' I believe)

"Clunkers" is a common term in the US for an older and nearly
broken-down car. Also "beaters", "rust buckets", and "jalopies".
There are local terms, too. In (I think it's Philly) the local term
is "hoopties".

"Clunkers" is a term, but not the term.
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

[HVS]

On 18 Mar 2023, Jerry Friedman wrote

> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 6:36:34 PM UTC-6, phil wrote:
>> On 17/03/2023 16:40, HVS wrote:
>>> On 16 Mar 2023, lar3ryca wrote
>>>
>>>> On 2023-03-16 07:42, phil wrote:
>>>>> On 16/03/2023 12:59, occam wrote:
>>>>>> The weather app on my phone shows the temperature in any
>>>>>> given city, even showing its evolution by the hour. I assume
>>>>>> these are real temperatures from meteorological services
>>>>>> somewhere not too far.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In addition to the real temperature (degrees C, F), the

>>>>>> temperature is accompanied by a subjective "Feels like -2CËÅ
> ¡" or

FWIW, there's a TV programme about a firm in Yorkshire that auctions
classic cars (including some that are complete wrecks), the punning
title of which is "Bangers and Cash".

--
Cheers, Harvey

[Ken Blake]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 09:21:11 -0400, TonyCooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 00:36:30 +0000, phil <ph...@anonymous.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>The shortening is quite noticeable, too. Back in the days when I drove
>>old bangers (AmE 'clunkers' I believe)
>
>"Clunkers" is a common term in the US for an older and nearly
>broken-down car. Also "beaters", "rust buckets", and "jalopies".

Do you still hear them? I haven't heard any of those for many years.

>There are local terms, too. In (I think it's Philly) the local term
>is "hoopties".

I've never heard that, even though I use to often spend weekends in
Philadelphia in the 1950s.

[TonyCooper]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 07:57:49 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>

wrote:

>On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 09:21:11 -0400, TonyCooper
><tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 00:36:30 +0000, phil <ph...@anonymous.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>The shortening is quite noticeable, too. Back in the days when I drove
>>>old bangers (AmE 'clunkers' I believe)
>>
>>"Clunkers" is a common term in the US for an older and nearly
>>broken-down car. Also "beaters", "rust buckets", and "jalopies".
>
>
>Do you still hear them? I haven't heard any of those for many years.
>
>
>>There are local terms, too. In (I think it's Philly) the local term
>>is "hoopties".
>
>
>I've never heard that, even though I use to often spend weekends in
>Philadelphia in the 1950s.

All I can tell you is that person I knew that used "hoopties" was from
Philly and said it was the common term there.

Here's an article about Philly high schoolers who refer to "the gas
guzzling, smog spewing 'hoopties' that are the typical city ride."

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/education/fast-times-at-west-philly-high/interactive-under-the-hood-of-west-phillys-x-prize-cars/

>
>>"Clunkers" is a term, but not the term.

[Ken Blake]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 12:14:13 -0400, TonyCooper

<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 07:57:49 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 09:21:11 -0400, TonyCooper
>><tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 00:36:30 +0000, phil <ph...@anonymous.invalid>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>The shortening is quite noticeable, too. Back in the days when I drove
>>>>old bangers (AmE 'clunkers' I believe)
>>>
>>>"Clunkers" is a common term in the US for an older and nearly
>>>broken-down car. Also "beaters", "rust buckets", and "jalopies".
>>
>>
>>Do you still hear them? I haven't heard any of those for many years.
>>
>>
>>>There are local terms, too. In (I think it's Philly) the local term
>>>is "hoopties".
>>
>>
>>I've never heard that, even though I use to often spend weekends in
>>Philadelphia in the 1950s.
>
>All I can tell you is that person I knew that used "hoopties" was from
>Philly and said it was the common term there.
>
>Here's an article about Philly high schoolers who refer to "the gas
>guzzling, smog spewing 'hoopties' that are the typical city ride."
>
>https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/education/fast-times-at-west-philly-high/interactive-under-the-hood-of-west-phillys-x-prize-cars/

OK, that article is a few years old, but it's recent enough that it's
probably still used. I never heard it, but that's perhaps because of
who I knew and what parts of Philadelphia I frequented.

Or maybe it's a newer term and wasn't used in the 1950s.

[Sam Plusnet]

Like the standard method for keeping a bottle of milk cool whilst
camping. Place a (clean) sock over the bottle, and stand it (n the
shade) in a shallow dish of water.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Peter Moylan]

The Coolgardie safe is a traditional Australian bush refrigerator. It is
covered by hessian cloth that is kept damp. It was apparently invented
in the 1890s in Coolgardie (a gold rush location), the principle being
copied from canvas water bags that were very slightly leaky, and
therefore damp on the outside.

Those water bags are still around, I believe, although I haven't seen
one for a while. In my childhood the water bag hung from the front
bumper bar of the car. The movement of the car helped the cooling. I
recall one occasion when the water bag might have saved our lives, when
the car broke an axle in a dry region on a very hot day.

(My father knew a short cut through the bush, but probably failed to
consider that the road condition was a lot worse than he remembered it.
He paid for that by having to walk for hours to the nearest town to get
help.)

[soup]

What is the "real" temperature then , and how would it be measured?

[J. J. Lodder]

Now that is a very good and a very hard question.
It was first asked about a hundred years ago by Lewis Fry Richardson.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Fry_Richardson>

He was a pioneering mathematician/scientist/meteorologist
who did highly original work in the fields of turbulence
and weather forecasting. (among many other things).

Actually he asked "Does the wind have a speed?"
An at first sight stupid question,
but one that improves on thinking about it.

Richardson saw that the velocity field in the turbulent atmophere
is very complicated, what we would now call a fractal.
What you measure depends on the scale, and on how you average.
The same must hold for the temperature.

So there is no real solution. What meteorologists do instead
is define a standardised set-up, all with the same anemomter,
temperature hut, thermometer, and so on,
so that they can at least compare measurements.

This of course leads to difficulties with the interpretation
of old measurements of temperatures.
There have been acrimonious debates,
with denialists accusing meteorologists/climatologists
of swindling away 'warm' old measurements by reinterpretation.

Jan

--
"Big whirls have little whirls that feed on their velocity,
and little whirls have lesser whirls and so on to viscosity.'
(Lewis Richardson)

[Peter Moylan]

On 20/03/23 01:27, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> This of course leads to difficulties with the interpretation
> of old measurements of temperatures.
> There have been acrimonious debates,
> with denialists accusing meteorologists/climatologists
> of swindling away 'warm' old measurements by reinterpretation.

On top of that, the denialists sometimes simply make things up. A couple
of years ago I was challenged with a claim of exceptionally high
temperatures in Sydney on a certain date in the 19th century. What those
people didn't realise is that old newspapers have been scanned and can
be read online. The Sydney Gazette for that date reported a top
temperature of 85 (F). High by the standards of recent immigrants from
England, but not at all high by today's standards.

[Dave S]

You had access to a seaside with sun??!!?

BTW, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison worked out a version of that box, partly because of the direct heating of their thermometers by sunlight, which meant time of day affected measurements in different parts of the yard differently, depending on the patterns of shade.

JSTOR has an archive of the American Scientist article:
<URL:https://www.jstor.org/stable/27859029>
(The "Archive" option in the hamburger at americanscientist.org is a link to JSTOR)
If your library has hardcopy, it's Vol. 95, No. 5 (SEPTEMBER-OCTOBER 2007), pp. 430-437 (8 pages) .

/dps

[Sam Plusnet]

On 22-Mar-23 22:36, Dave S wrote:
> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 12:37:58 PM UTC-7, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 17-Mar-23 10:38, soup wrote:
>>> On 16/03/2023 13:42, phil wrote:
>>>> I'd say that in still conditions there's a 'lack of wind' warming
>>>> factor, whatever we should call it, and the 'feels like' temperature
>>>> is warmer than the actual measured temperature.
>>>
>>> When I was at school (long time ago so memory may be a bit weak) we were
>>> taught about temperatures being taken in side a louvered box.
>>>
>>> https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/A15D/production/_119490314_weatherstation.jpg
>>>
>>> This box was louvered to allow free movement of air but NOT be affected
>>> by wind ,it was also painted white so it wasn't heated up by sunlight .
>>>
>>> So the temperature given IS the one without wind and out of direct
>>> sunlight. Then wind humidity etc are considered, to give "feels like"
>>> temperatures.
>> It isn't a good idea to keep your Campbell–Stokes recorder in that box.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell–Stokes_recorder
>>
>> I was always fascinated by these things, whenever I visited the seaside
>> as a kid.
>
> You had access to a seaside with sun??!!?

It's hard to get too far away from the coast in Britain.

Where I lived as a child, 70 miles due east or west would have you
paddling in salt water.

I was always rather dubious of their recorded 'hours of sunshine', since
it always seemed to be much better in the week just before we arrived.

--
Sam Plusnet

[occam]

On 19/03/2023 01:06, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/03/23 08:10, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 18-Mar-23 10:49, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>> Den 18.03.2023 kl. 11.42 skrev J. J. Lodder:
>>>
>>>>> temperature. For example, if the temperature outside is -5°F
>>>>> and the wind chill temperature is -31°F, then your car's
>>>>> radiator will not drop lower than -5°F.
>>>>>
>>>>> (end quote)
>>>>
>>>> Which is not quite correct. While the water is evaporating (or
>>>> sublimating) the water pipe can be somewhat colder than the air
>>>> temperature.
>>>
>>> It's a well-known method for cooling your beer at the beach to dip
>>> a paper or cloth in the water and wrap it around the bottle. The
>>> wind will cool the beer well below air temperature.
>>
>> Like the standard method for keeping a bottle of milk cool whilst
>> camping.  Place a (clean) sock over the bottle, and stand it (n the
>> shade) in a shallow dish of water.
>
> The Coolgardie safe is a traditional Australian bush refrigerator. It is
> covered by hessian cloth that is kept damp. It was apparently invented
> in the 1890s in Coolgardie (a gold rush location), the principle being
> copied from canvas water bags that were very slightly leaky, and
> therefore damp on the outside.

Bah! Luxury! When I were a lad... (As they say in the Monthy Python sketch.)

I second Bertel's wet cloth method. And I'll see Jan's beer at the beach
and Sam's milk while camping, and raise them a watermelon at a picnic by
a stream. You plonk the uncut watermelon into the shallow part of the
stream, while you set up the picnic site.

[Madhu]

* occam <k82l27F5mlcU1 @mid.individual.net> :
Wrote on Thu, 23 Mar 2023 10:39:18 +0100:

>> The Coolgardie safe is a traditional Australian bush refrigerator. It is
>> covered by hessian cloth that is kept damp. It was apparently invented
>> in the 1890s in Coolgardie (a gold rush location), the principle being
>> copied from canvas water bags that were very slightly leaky, and
>> therefore damp on the outside.
>
> Bah! Luxury! When I were a lad... (As they say in the Monthy Python sketch.)
>
> I second Bertel's wet cloth method. And I'll see Jan's beer at the beach
> and Sam's milk while camping, and raise them a watermelon at a picnic by
> a stream. You plonk the uncut watermelon into the shallow part of the
> stream, while you set up the picnic site.

The earthen (clay/matka) pot (which used to be ubiquitous in India)
cools water naturally on the same principle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matki_(earthen_pot)

[J. J. Lodder]

Huh? I said nothing about beer at the beach.
And I'll beat your watermelon by having a knotted
polypropylene shopping net and a length of rope
to lower my wine botle into a deeper part of the stream,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Madhu <eno...@meer.net> wrote:

> * occam <k82l27F5mlcU1 @mid.individual.net> :
> Wrote on Thu, 23 Mar 2023 10:39:18 +0100:
> >> The Coolgardie safe is a traditional Australian bush refrigerator. It is
> >> covered by hessian cloth that is kept damp. It was apparently invented
> >> in the 1890s in Coolgardie (a gold rush location), the principle being
> >> copied from canvas water bags that were very slightly leaky, and
> >> therefore damp on the outside.
> >
> > Bah! Luxury! When I were a lad... (As they say in the Monthy Python sketch.)
> >
> > I second Bertel's wet cloth method. And I'll see Jan's beer at the beach
> > and Sam's milk while camping, and raise them a watermelon at a picnic by
> > a stream. You plonk the uncut watermelon into the shallow part of the
> > stream, while you set up the picnic site.
>
> The earthen (clay/matka) pot (which used to be ubiquitous in India)
> cools water naturally on the same principle.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matki_(earthen_pot)>

[links ending with a ) are not clickable unless enclosed in < > ]

Hardly an Indian specialty.
The oldest known historical record
may be one from the Old Kingdom, Egypt.

But of course the fact that water stays cool in porous earthenware
must have been known much earlier than that.
Porous pots were all they had, in the beginning,

Jan

[occam]

Sorry. Wrong attribution. That should have been Bertel's beer.

Polypropylene shopping bag?! Bah! Modern nonsense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphora

" Amphorae were used in vast numbers for the transport and storage of
various products, both liquid and dry, but mostly for wine." Amphora
also kept the wine at a cool...wine temperature.




>

[J. J. Lodder]

Perhaps, but quite effective.
You wouldn't want to lose your bottle to the river goddess, eh?

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphora
>
> " Amphorae were used in vast numbers for the transport and storage of
> various products, both liquid and dry, but mostly for wine." Amphora
> also kept the wine at a cool...wine temperature.

Too bad. The alcohol will evaporate faster than the water...

Your choice, I guess,

Jan

[Sam Plusnet]

Rome was built on seven hills.
The eighth hill is a very large pile of broken amphora, once used to
bring olive oil into Rome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Testaccio

--
Sam Plusnet

[Snidely]

Wednesday, Sam Plusnet observed:

> On 22-Mar-23 22:36, Dave S wrote:
>> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 12:37:58 PM UTC-7, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>> On 17-Mar-23 10:38, soup wrote:
>>>> On 16/03/2023 13:42, phil wrote:
>>>>> I'd say that in still conditions there's a 'lack of wind' warming
>>>>> factor, whatever we should call it, and the 'feels like' temperature
>>>>> is warmer than the actual measured temperature.
>>>>
>>>> When I was at school (long time ago so memory may be a bit weak) we were
>>>> taught about temperatures being taken in side a louvered box.
>>>>
>>>> https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/A15D/production/_119490314_weatherstation.jpg
>>>>
>>>> This box was louvered to allow free movement of air but NOT be affected
>>>> by wind ,it was also painted white so it wasn't heated up by sunlight .
>>>>
>>>> So the temperature given IS the one without wind and out of direct
>>>> sunlight. Then wind humidity etc are considered, to give "feels like"
>>>> temperatures.
>>> It isn't a good idea to keep your Campbell–Stokes recorder in that box.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell–Stokes_recorder
>>>
>>> I was always fascinated by these things, whenever I visited the seaside
>>> as a kid.
>>
>> You had access to a seaside with sun??!!?
>
> It's hard to get too far away from the coast in Britain.
>
> Where I lived as a child, 70 miles due east or west would have you paddling
> in salt water.

That's not what I was surprised by.

> I was always rather dubious of their recorded 'hours of sunshine', since it
> always seemed to be much better in the week just before we arrived.

That's closer to my surprise.

/dps

--
As a colleague once told me about an incoming manager,
"He does very well in a suck-up, kick-down culture."
Bill in Vancouver