Everyone tells me I'm using "harbinger" wrong (but I don't see how)

[Lionel Muller]

Every time I use the word "harbinger" as in this phrase below, people tell
me I'm using the word "harbinger" in the wrong manner.
"He was the harbinger of truth"

Looking it up, I don't see what people have against this usage.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/harbinger

a : one that initiates a major change : a person or thing that originates
or helps open up a new activity, method, or technology : pioneer
the great legal harbinger of the New Deal revolution ¡X Time
a harbinger of nanotechnology
the harbingers of peace to a hitherto distracted ¡K people ¡X David
Livingstone
b : something that foreshadows a future event : something that gives an
anticipatory sign of what is to come robins, crocuses, and other harbingers
of spring

What do you personally think of the usage of the word harbinger as in:
"He is the harbinger of truth"

[Peter T. Daniels]

Doesn't sound right. M-W is a dictionary "on historical principles," listing
the earliest uses first. The word normally means sense (b) these days.

[Steve Hayes]

On Fri, 30 Jun 2017 03:38:58 +0000, Lionel Muller wrote:

> What do you personally think of the usage of the word harbinger as in:
> "He is the harbinger of truth"

Truth is on its way, he has been sent ahead to prepare for its arrival.

--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com

[Whiskers]

Is truth something that can be harbinged? It already exists, and always
has, even if people can't agree about what it is. So what is your
harbinger pioneering or foreshadowing?

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Theodore Heise]

On Fri, 30 Jun 2017 09:09:32 +0100,
Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:
> On 2017-06-30, Lionel Muller <Erhoht...@neomailbox.com> wrote:
> > Every time I use the word "harbinger" as in this phrase below, people tell
> > me I'm using the word "harbinger" in the wrong manner.
> > "He was the harbinger of truth"
> >
> > Looking it up, I don't see what people have against this
> > usage. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/harbinger
> >
> > a : one that initiates a major change : a person or thing
> > that originates or helps open up a new activity, method, or
> > technology : pioneer the great legal harbinger of the New

> > Deal revolution ?X Time a harbinger of nanotechnology the
> > harbingers of peace to a hitherto distracted ?K people ?X

> > David Livingstone b : something that foreshadows a future
> > event : something that gives an anticipatory sign of what is
> > to come robins, crocuses, and other harbingers of spring
> >
> > What do you personally think of the usage of the word
> >harbinger as in:
> > "He is the harbinger of truth"
>
> Is truth something that can be harbinged? It already exists,
> and always has, even if people can't agree about what it is.
> So what is your harbinger pioneering or foreshadowing?

Yes, this was also my take.

--
Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> Bloomington, IN, USA

[Harrison Hill]

I don't think you can be a "harbinger of truth".

Harbinging (taking it too far) means "presaging" or
"foretelling". A bit of Fowler talking about the
semicolon:

"In this capacity it is a substitute for such verbal
harbingers as viz., scil., that is to say, i.e., etc.

My spell-checker doesn't like "scil" and neither do I :)

[Harrison Hill]

"Harbingeing" I suppose. Still not a word, but at least
spelt right :)

[Janet]

In article <oj4rus$15d$1...@dont-email.me>, haye...@telkomsa.net says...

> Truth is on its way, he has been sent ahead to prepare for its arrival.

Sounds like a job-description for Trump's PR person.

Janet

[Paul Wolff]

On Fri, 30 Jun 2017, Harrison Hill <harrison...@gmail.com> posted:

>On Friday, 30 June 2017 04:39:02 UTC+1, Lionel Muller wrote:
>> Every time I use the word "harbinger" as in this phrase below, people tell
>> me I'm using the word "harbinger" in the wrong manner.
>> "He was the harbinger of truth"
>>
>> Looking it up, I don't see what people have against this usage.
>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/harbinger
>>
>> a : one that initiates a major change : a person or thing that originates
>> or helps open up a new activity, method, or technology : pioneer

>> the great legal harbinger of the New Deal revolution — Time
>> a harbinger of nanotechnology
>> the harbingers of peace to a hitherto distracted … people — David

>> Livingstone
>> b : something that foreshadows a future event : something that gives an
>> anticipatory sign of what is to come robins, crocuses, and other harbingers
>> of spring

Meaning (a) is very modern. So modern, in fact, that I can't interpret
half of the text.

>>
>> What do you personally think of the usage of the word harbinger as in:
>> "He is the harbinger of truth"
>
>I don't think you can be a "harbinger of truth".

That sentence works if "he" is John the Baptist. Given the narrative of
the New Testament, including "I am the way, the truth, and the life."

>
>Harbinging (taking it too far) means "presaging" or
>"foretelling".

It means "herald".

It seems to have acquired that meaning from the military practice of
sending officers in advance to arrange lodgings (auberges). They became
lodgingers, so to speak, or herbergers. They signalled the imminent
arrival of an army, no doubt marching on its stomach.

>A bit of Fowler talking about the
>semicolon:
>
>"In this capacity it is a substitute for such verbal
>harbingers as viz., scil., that is to say, i.e., etc.

--
Paul

[Lionel Muller]

For alt.usage.english Theodore Heise wrote:


>> Is truth something that can be harbinged? It already exists,
>> and always has, even if people can't agree about what it is.
>> So what is your harbinger pioneering or foreshadowing?
>
> Yes, this was also my take.

I understand and appreciate your observation that truth doesn't need a
harbinger. However, in light of the way the sentence was used, here's my
take on the context in which it was used.

The context was a technical discussion, but let's use a classic "truth"
which is that Einstein was wrong when he postulated that a God wouldn't
build a random universe (playing dice, so to speak).

The "truth" was always there ... but nobody knew the truth at the time (not
even Einstein).

The harbinger of truth was Heisenberg.

Does my "take" on the sentence make any sense in light of the fact that you
bring up the admitted fact that the "truth" was always there. It just
needed a messenger, IMHO, to carry it to Einstein.

[David Kleinecke]

Not everyone even today has accepted the conclusion that
quantum mechanical random behaviors are not the result of
hidden deterministic variables.

[Robert Bannister]

Are you saying truth did not exist before "he" brought it?
I thought that President Chump had declared all truth fake.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Robert Bannister]

On 1/7/17 12:59 am, Lionel Muller wrote:
> For alt.usage.english Theodore Heise wrote:
>
>
>>> Is truth something that can be harbinged? It already exists, and
>>> always has, even if people can't agree about what it is. So what is
>>> your harbinger pioneering or foreshadowing?
>>
>> Yes, this was also my take.
>
> I understand and appreciate your observation that truth doesn't need a
> harbinger. However, in light of the way the sentence was used, here's my
> take on the context in which it was used.
>
> The context was a technical discussion, but let's use a classic "truth"
> which is that Einstein was wrong when he postulated that a God wouldn't
> build a random universe (playing dice, so to speak).
>
> The "truth" was always there ... but nobody knew the truth at the time
> (not even Einstein).
> The harbinger of truth was Heisenberg.

Still not the harbinger of "truth". Of "that truth" or "the truth
that..." perhaps.

[Theodore Heise]

On Sat, 1 Jul 2017 09:14:00 +0800,
Robert Bannister <robertb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> On 1/7/17 12:59 am, Lionel Muller wrote:
> > For alt.usage.english Theodore Heise wrote:

> >> On Fri, 30 Jun 2017 09:09:32 +0100,

> >> Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:

> >>> Is truth something that can be harbinged? It already
> >>> exists, and always has, even if people can't agree about
> >>> what it is. So what is your harbinger pioneering or
> >>> foreshadowing?
> >>
> >> Yes, this was also my take.
> >
> > I understand and appreciate your observation that truth
> > doesn't need a harbinger. However, in light of the way the
> > sentence was used, here's my take on the context in which it
> > was used.
> >
> > The context was a technical discussion, but let's use a
> > classic "truth" which is that Einstein was wrong when he
> > postulated that a God wouldn't build a random universe
> > (playing dice, so to speak).
> >
> > The "truth" was always there ... but nobody knew the truth at
> > the time (not even Einstein). The harbinger of truth was
> > Heisenberg.
>
> Still not the harbinger of "truth". Of "that truth" or "the
> truth that..." perhaps.

My understanding aligns with Robert's. The truth didn't change,
people's awareness of it did. A harbinger signals (or more
rarely) facilitates a change--but the key point seems to be
change. So "truth" needs to be qualified in some way to make it
clear some change is involved.

[Lionel Muller]

For alt.usage.english Robert Bannister wrote:


>> What do you personally think of the usage of the word harbinger as in:
>> "He is the harbinger of truth"
>
> Are you saying truth did not exist before "he" brought it?

It seems harbinger is suited for "change" where the truth needs to be
elucidated and by doing so, it effects a change.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

When I started rading this thread I had a general idea of the use and
meaning of "harbinger", but I decided to look in a dcitionary for more
information.

This is a summary of the entry in the OED:

Note that the "n" in "harbinger" is a later intrusion.

Etymology: Early Middle English herbergere and herbergeour , < Old
French herbergere (-begiere , habergiere ), ..... the current
harbinger : compare passenger , messenger , wharfinger .

†1. One who provides lodging; an entertainer, a host; a harbourer n.
common herberger, a common lodging-house keeper. Obs.
a.
c1175
....

2. One sent on before to purvey lodgings for an army, a royal train,
etc.; a purveyor of lodgings; in pl., an advance company of an army
sent to prepare a camping-ground; a pioneer who prepares the way.
Hist. and arch. †Knight Harbinger: an officer in the Royal Household
(the office was abolished in 1846).
a.
c1386 Chaucer Man of Law's Tale 899 The fame anon thurgh out the
toun is born..By herbergeours [v.r. -jours], that wenten hym
biforn.
....

3. One that goes before and announces the approach of some one; a
forerunner. Mostly in transf. and fig. senses, and in literary
language.
a1550 Hye way Spyttel Hous 834 in W. C. Hazlitt Remains Early Pop.
Poetry Eng. IV. 60 These to our place have dayly herbegers.
....

5. "harbinger of spring" n. A small umbelliferous herb of North
America, Erigenia bulbosa, which flowers in March in the Central
States. In its tuberous root, twice ternate leaves, and small white
flowers, it resembles the Earth-nut of Great Britain.
1868 A. Gray Man. Bot. Northern U.S. (ed. 5)

The entry in the OED "has not yet been fully updated (first published
1898)".

The OED's trendy relative says:
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/harbinger

harbinger
noun

1 A person or thing that announces or signals the approach of
another.
‘witch hazels are the harbingers of spring’

1.1 A forerunner of something.
‘these works were not yet opera but they were the most important
harbinger of opera’

Origin

Middle English: from Old French herbergere, from herbergier ‘provide
lodging for’, from herberge ‘lodging’, from Old Saxon heriberga
‘shelter for an army, lodging’ (from heri ‘army’ + a Germanic base
meaning ‘fortified place’), related to harbour. The term originally
denoted a person who provided lodging, later one who went ahead to
find lodgings for an army or for a nobleman and his retinue, hence,
a herald (mid 16th century).

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Lionel Muller]

For alt.usage.english Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:


> Middle English: from Old French herbergere, from herbergier ¡provide
> lodging for¢, from herberge ¡lodging¢, from Old Saxon heriberga
> ¡shelter for an army, lodging¢ (from heri ¡army¢ + a Germanic base
> meaning ¡fortified place¢), related to harbour. The term originally
> denoted a person who provided lodging, later one who went ahead to
> find lodgings for an army or for a nobleman and his retinue, hence,
> a herald (mid 16th century).

Thanks for that pretty good explanation.
So a harbinger was originally one who provided "harbor" (lodging), and
then it became someone sent ahead to obtain lodging, and then someone who
goes ahead to announce that you're on your way, and then to announce that
something (anything) is coming (such as Spring), and finally, the
forerunner of anything (such as the forerunner of opera).

In that sense, the harbinger of truth is the forerunner of truth.

[Jerry Friedman]

True, but the people who don't accept it have a lot of explaining.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Lionel Muller]

For alt.usage.english Jerry Friedman wrote:


>> Not everyone even today has accepted the conclusion that
>> quantum mechanical random behaviors are not the result of
>> hidden deterministic variables.
>
> True, but the people who don't accept it have a lot of explaining.

The part that gets me is that every one of us is both a particle and a
wave, at the same time.

Luckily, we're big particles (hence small waves); but we're still waves
nonetheless.

MOM: Wave to the particle.
KID: I am.

[Peter T. Daniels]

ITYM "have some 'splainin' to do." (Those are two apostrophes, not scare quotes.)

[Peter Moylan]

To my mind, the two statements
(a) He was the harbinger of truth
(b) The truth was always there
are mutually contradictory.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Whiskers]

One can be a harbinger of enlightenment, or understanding, or new
beginnings, or various other things, all or any of which might bring
some aspect of truth into play.

[Lionel Muller]

For alt.usage.english Whiskers wrote:


> One can be a harbinger of enlightenment, or understanding, or new
> beginnings, or various other things, all or any of which might bring
> some aspect of truth into play.

While I obviously agree with you, I realize, belatedly, that my being a
"harbinger of truth" is probably not the best choice of how to enlighten
people.

To better fit people's courier concepts, I should better have just been the
"messenger of truth" or perhaps even the "harbinger of enlightenment"
instead.

[Dingbat]

On Sunday, July 2, 2017 at 1:09:11 AM UTC+5:30, Lionel Muller wrote:
> For alt.usage.english Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>
>
> > Middle English: from Old French herbergere, from herbergier ¡provide
> > lodging for¢, from herberge ¡lodging¢, from Old Saxon heriberga
> > ¡shelter for an army, lodging¢ (from heri ¡army¢ + a Germanic base
> > meaning ¡fortified place¢), related to harbour. The term originally
> > denoted a person who provided lodging, later one who went ahead to
> > find lodgings for an army or for a nobleman and his retinue, hence,
> > a herald (mid 16th century).
>
> Thanks for that pretty good explanation.
> So a harbinger was originally one who provided "harbor" (lodging), and
> then it became someone sent ahead to obtain lodging, and then someone who
> goes ahead to announce that you're on your way, and then to announce that
> something (anything) is coming (such as Spring),

Surely Paul Revere wasn't a harbinger of the British!

[David Kleinecke]

On Sunday, July 2, 2017 at 7:32:27 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> On Sunday, July 2, 2017 at 1:09:11 AM UTC+5:30, Lionel Muller wrote:
> > For alt.usage.english Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Middle English: from Old French herbergere, from herbergier ¡provide
> > > lodging for¢, from herberge ¡lodging¢, from Old Saxon heriberga
> > > ¡shelter for an army, lodging¢ (from heri ¡army¢ + a Germanic base
> > > meaning ¡fortified place¢), related to harbour. The term originally
> > > denoted a person who provided lodging, later one who went ahead to
> > > find lodgings for an army or for a nobleman and his retinue, hence,
> > > a herald (mid 16th century).
> >
> > Thanks for that pretty good explanation.
> > So a harbinger was originally one who provided "harbor" (lodging), and
> > then it became someone sent ahead to obtain lodging, and then someone who
> > goes ahead to announce that you're on your way, and then to announce that
> > something (anything) is coming (such as Spring),
>
> Surely Paul Revere wasn't a harbinger of the British!

Because he was a warner not an enthusiast. I think Cassandra
falls in the same category. In primitive Islam Muhammad was a
warner and compared himself (if we can trust the Qur'an) with
that successful (but disgruntled) warner Jonah.

But there should be a word with more punch than "warner".

Prophet of Doom?

[Whiskers]

Yes, or angel if you can tolerate the mysticism.

[Robert Bannister]

An 'aspect of truth' or a 'new interpretation of truth', yes, or perhaps
'this truth' or 'that truth', but unqualified "truth" is something
allegedly ever present and unchanging, which means it can't suddenly
appear and therefore can't have harbingers.

[Robert Bannister]

Yes. I prefer the latter.

[Snidely]

Robert Bannister presented the following explanation :

Is the truth about what you will put on your eggs next Tuesday always
there?

/dps

--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)

[Whiskers]

If time and space are mere aspects of the same thing, then yes.