Is he a Red Brick or a Sandstone?

[Mack A. Damia]

(Quote) "Is he a Red Brick or a Sandstone"


Class consciousness from "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy".

[soup]

On 17/09/2021 16:20, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>
> (Quote) "Is he a Red Brick or a Sandstone"
>
>
> Class consciousness from "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy".
>

Possibly a question as to which type of university did he go to
Red brick tend to be the modern ones (think city ones) whilst sandstone
tend to be older, more classical architecture ones (think Oxford/Cambridge).

From :-
https://www.theuniguide.co.uk

The origins of the term ‘red brick university’ go back to the Victorian
era, when a number of specialist institutions gained independence and
became fully fledged universities in their own right.
These universities got their ‘red brick’ label from the style of
brickwork common at the time.

Or it could just be what type of house does he live in.
An olde wolde country house :- Sandstone.
or a modern inner city suburban house :- Red Brick

[Mack A. Damia]

Interesting analysis. Not certain that it is applicable.


BBC Production, 1979.

"Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy is about betrayal at the highest levels of
the British intelligence bureaucracy. The story is also loosely based
on the case of the infamous Cambridge spy ring that passed on valuable
information to the Soviet Union. The fact that these traitors were
pillars of British society, shocked a nation that prided itself on
safeguarding traditions and believing in the stable rigidity of class
distinctions."
v
v
v
"The series doesn’t make any concessions to the limited knowledge the
audience has of cloak and dagger stuff. Intelligence work is shown at
its most intricate and byzantine, complete with idiosyncratic
euphemism and code words that betray that inescapable British sense of
irony: The reptile fund, Lamplighters, Swiss escapes. It is language
that is also permeated by class and club loyalty. “Is he a Red Brick
or a Sandstone?” and “Don’t mix with proles!”

https://frame.land/antiquated-heroes-tinker-tailor-soldier-spy/

[Ross Clark]

On 18/09/2021 3:20 a.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
>
> (Quote) "Is he a Red Brick or a Sandstone"
>
>
> Class consciousness from "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy".
>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_brick_university

"one of the nine civic universities founded in the major industrial
cities of England in the 19th century."

The later wave of universities from the 1960s have been called
"plate-glass":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_glass_university

Never heard "sandstone" in this context before; could it be an
Australian reference?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandstone_universities

[Jerry Friedman]

I'm not sure I've heard of it elsewhere, but it seems pretty clear in TTSS.
Roddy Martindale has referred to Roy Bland as "the redbrick don".

'"Roy Bland’s not redbrick," Smiley said loudly. "He was at Saint Antony’s
College, Oxford, if you want to know.”"

'Heaven help me, it was the best I could do, thought Smiley.

'"Don’t be silly, dear," Martindale snapped. Smiley had bored him: he looked
sulky and cheated; distressing downward folds had formed on the lower contours
of his cheeks. "Of course Saint Antony’s is redbrick; it makes no difference
there’s a little bit of sandstone in the same street, even if he was your protégé."'

The question "Is he a Red Brick or a Sandstone" seems to be a memory of
that passage distorted by the person Mack quoted. At least I couldn't find it
with a search for "sandstone" at

https://archive.org/stream/TinkerTailorSoldierSpyJohnLeCarre/Tinker%2C%20Tailor%2C%20Soldier%2C%20Spy%20-%20John%20le%20Carre_djvu.txt

--
Jerry Friedman

[Mack A. Damia]

Not certain. I heard the quote as I was watching it and immediately
wrote it down. The Google link seemed to confirm it to me.

I will be watching it again.

[Jerry Friedman]

It's about universities in /Tinker, Tailor/. Incidentally, in American English,
"inner city suburban" would be a contradiction in terms.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Mack A. Damia]

On Fri, 17 Sep 2021 21:04:40 +0100, soup <inv...@invalid.com> wrote:

That may be the answer. Found this from the 1979 screenplay script
starring Alec Guinness:

You featherhead, Martindale! You pompous,
bogus, gossiping old featherhead!

Roy Bland is not redbrick.
He was at St Antony's College, Oxford.

Oh, don't be silly, dear.
Of course St Antony is redbrick.

Makes no difference there's a bit
of sandstone in the same street.

[Mack A. Damia]

I think John le Carré must have collaborated on the 1979 version; he
thought Guinness's performance was excellent, and he must have given
some input during the writing of the screenplay. He certainly did in
the 2011 version.

In the author's subsequent works featuring George Smiley, he tailored
Smiley to Guinness.

[Peter Moylan]

It's happened again. I had no idea that "sandstone university" was an
Australianism.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[soup]

On 17/09/2021 23:04, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> Incidentally, in American English,
> "inner city suburban" would be a contradiction in terms.

It would here too.
Mea culpa I wrote one thing (inner city)then changed my mind (to
suburban) without editing properly.

[Neill Massello]

On 2021-09-17 at 14:26:50 MDT, "Mack A. Damia" <drstee...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy is about betrayal at the highest levels of
> the British intelligence bureaucracy. The story is also loosely based
> on the case of the infamous Cambridge spy ring that passed on valuable
> information to the Soviet Union. The fact that these traitors were
> pillars of British society, shocked a nation that prided itself on
> safeguarding traditions and believing in the stable rigidity of class
> distinctions."

I suppose Kim Philby and the others could be described as red sandstone.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I don't remember Oxford or Cambridge being referred to as sandstone,
though maybe they are. At least one college (Keble) is as redbrick as
you could ask for. It was called (though not by its inmates) The
largest public toilet in the world.


--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[Janet]

In article <si2scm$f5u$1...@dont-email.me>, inv...@invalid.com says...

>
> On 17/09/2021 16:20, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >
> > (Quote) "Is he a Red Brick or a Sandstone"
> >
> >
> > Class consciousness from "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy".
> >
> Possibly a question as to which type of university did he go to
> Red brick tend to be the modern ones (think city ones) whilst sandstone
> tend to be older, more classical architecture ones (think Oxford/Cambridge).
>
> From :-
> https://www.theuniguide.co.uk
>

> The origins of the term ?red brick university? go back to the Victorian

> era, when a number of specialist institutions gained independence and
> became fully fledged universities in their own right.

> These universities got their ?red brick? label from the style of

> brickwork common at the time.
>
> Or it could just be what type of house does he live in.
> An olde wolde country house :- Sandstone.
> or a modern inner city suburban house :- Red Brick

It's undoubtedly a university reference.

Redbrick/ sandstone home carries no class distinction in Britain,
since stone built buildings are associated with all. Castles cottages
mansions and inner city tenements and workers homes were all built in
stone.

Janet

[phil]

Did the Society for the Demolition of Keble College (I think that was
its title) exist in your day? As I recall, the membership fee was one
brick from Keble per year.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 5:44:27 PM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 3:03:46 PM UTC-6, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > On 18/09/2021 3:20 a.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:

> > > (Quote) "Is he a Red Brick or a Sandstone"
> > > Class consciousness from "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy".
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_brick_university
> > "one of the nine civic universities founded in the major industrial
> > cities of England in the 19th century."
> > The later wave of universities from the 1960s have been called
> > "plate-glass":
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_glass_university
> > Never heard "sandstone" in this context before; could it be an
> > Australian reference?
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandstone_universities
>
> I'm not sure I've heard of it elsewhere, but it seems pretty clear in TTSS.
> Roddy Martindale has referred to Roy Bland as "the redbrick don".
>
> '"Roy Bland’s not redbrick," Smiley said loudly. "He was at Saint Antony’s
> College, Oxford, if you want to know.”"

David Lodge used "red brick" (could the space have been inserted
for the US edition? Did Penguin do different editions?) in his Campus
Trilogy (1975-88) but I don't recall "sandstone" (wouldn't they just say
"Oxbridge"?) or "plate glass" (why not one word?). (That term was
coined in 1968; Malcolm Bradbury seems to have used it in a 1975
novel, but the Wikioarticle doesn't say whether it's widely caught on.)

[Jerry Friedman]

Got it, thanks.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Mack A. Damia]

Not convinced. The story itself is crawling with class-consciousness.

He is asking about the cultural/social phenomenon of class
distinctions in terms known only to a few.

[Sam Plusnet]

On 17/09/2021 21:26, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2021 21:04:40 +0100, soup <inv...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> On 17/09/2021 16:20, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>
>>> (Quote) "Is he a Red Brick or a Sandstone"
>>>
>>>
>>> Class consciousness from "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy".
>>>
>> Possibly a question as to which type of university did he go to
>> Red brick tend to be the modern ones (think city ones) whilst sandstone
>> tend to be older, more classical architecture ones (think Oxford/Cambridge).
>>
>> From :-
>> https://www.theuniguide.co.uk
>>
>> The origins of the term ‘red brick university’ go back to the Victorian
>> era, when a number of specialist institutions gained independence and
>> became fully fledged universities in their own right.
>> These universities got their ‘red brick’ label from the style of
>> brickwork common at the time.
>>
>> Or it could just be what type of house does he live in.
>> An olde wolde country house :- Sandstone.
>> or a modern inner city suburban house :- Red Brick
>
> Interesting analysis. Not certain that it is applicable.
>

"Red brick" is certainly a reference to a range of newer universities
which lack the prestige of those older establishments.
I don't recall coming across the "Sandstone" reference before, since it
suggests that older universities are built alike - which I don't believe.

[Mack A. Damia]

To be truthful, whatever I heard sounded like class distinction.

I would have thought that brick is more expensive than sandstone. I
really have no knowledge of the cost of either, but that is what came
to mind.

[Stoat]

Nor I. Always as "Oxbridge"

In a novel, the title and author of which I have forgotten, the
hero(?)'s university was described as "white tile". The implication was
that it would be suitable for urinating on.



--brian

--
Wellington
New Zealand

[Peter T. Daniels]

And really, how useful is sandstone as a building material? Chicago
has been afraid of wood construction since 1871, and at first everything
was made of Indiana limestone, which is a pale yellow and seems to
have withstood weathering for a century and a half. (The 20th century
brought mostly brick construction -- including many hectares of tenements
built for the 1893 World's Fair to house tourists that since then have housed
renters.)

Looking for a contrast with "red brick," wouldn't "granite" have been more
impressive?

[Jerry Friedman]

I agree that it's about class--specifically that Oxford and Cambridge
were considered higher-class than the redbrick universities. In the
book there's no doubt. I don't know about the TV or film scripts.

> I would have thought that brick is more expensive than sandstone. I
> really have no knowledge of the cost of either, but that is what came
> to mind.

Sandstone has to be broken out of solid rock, but I don't know
either.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

At the very least, the point of "redbrick" must be that the older universities
don't use much brick. But specifically,

'...we caught the train that, after several changes, would finally deliver us
to Oxford. I remember walking through the streets of this strange city
with its crumbling, sandstone buildings to Balliol College, where,
strangest of all, the porter at the front gate referred to me as "sir".'

https://authors.library.caltech.edu/42498/15/autobiography/autoballiol.htm

(The writer is the Richard L. and Dorothy M. Hayman Professor of
Mechanical Engineering, Emeritus, at Caltech.)

But maybe our Oxonians will comment.

- -
Jerry Friedman

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 06:53:54 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>And really, how useful is sandstone as a building material? Chicago
>has been afraid of wood construction since 1871, and at first everything
>was made of Indiana limestone, which is a pale yellow and seems to
>have withstood weathering for a century and a half.

Indiana limestone, to my eye, is gray. And, my eye has seen a lot of
limestone. The older buildings on the Indiana University campus are
limestone. I have spent quite a few weekend hours at the limestone
quarries near Bloomington, Indiana. That's where we took dates and
picnicked and swam. Many public buildings and private homes in
Indianapolis were made of limestone.

Limestone can be pale yellow if it was quarried from an area with a
high iron or magnanese presence, but gray is the predominate color.

Drifting a bit, because I feel like it...Limestone-carrying trucks
were the most frightening things to me when I was in college. Southern
Indiana, unlike the northern part of the state, is hilly. Not
moutainous, but certainly hilly.

In the late 50s, when I was in college, my vehicle was a 1948 Austin
A40 Devon. The engine power was roughly that of a sewing machine's
output. Traveling around the area around Bloomington there were hills
that the Austin strained to gain, but allowed a decent speed on the
downside.

Limestone was transported from the quarries in flatbed trucks that
were often WWII surplus vehicles. On the downside of a hill, the
weight of the limestone overcame any effect of brakes.

With a limestone truck behind me on one of those roads, the truck
would travel down the hill until it was almost in my backseat and my
hope of survival was that I could increase the distance at the next
uphill stretch. All I could do is refuse to look in the rearview
mirror and hope. To look might have meant being paralyzed with fear.





--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[Jerry Friedman]

On Sunday, September 19, 2021 at 8:45:46 AM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:

[Indiana]

> In the late 50s, when I was in college, my vehicle was a 1948 Austin
> A40 Devon. The engine power was roughly that of a sewing machine's
> output. Traveling around the area around Bloomington there were hills
> that the Austin strained to gain, but allowed a decent speed on the
> downside.
>
> Limestone was transported from the quarries in flatbed trucks that
> were often WWII surplus vehicles. On the downside of a hill, the
> weight of the limestone overcame any effect of brakes.
>
> With a limestone truck behind me on one of those roads, the truck
> would travel down the hill until it was almost in my backseat and my
> hope of survival was that I could increase the distance at the next
> uphill stretch. All I could do is refuse to look in the rearview
> mirror and hope. To look might have meant being paralyzed with fear.

No shoulder to pull off onto?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Madhu]

* Tony Cooper <oqgekgtjd2is61vch...@4ax.com> :
Wrote on Sun, 19 Sep 2021 10:45:38 -0400:

> Indiana limestone, to my eye, is gray. And, my eye has seen a lot of
> limestone. The older buildings on the Indiana University campus are
> limestone. I have spent quite a few weekend hours at the limestone
> quarries near Bloomington, Indiana. That's where we took dates and
> picnicked and swam. Many public buildings and private homes in
> Indianapolis were made of limestone.
>
> Limestone can be pale yellow if it was quarried from an area with a
> high iron or magnanese presence, but gray is the predominate color.

I expect `predominant' adj. but i bet i've seen predominate in this
position a few times.

[Tony Cooper]

To pull off on the shoulder would require slowing down to watch for
one with enough space. I don't know if the truck would understand
that the turn flashers on the Austin that popped out of the side of
the car between the front and back doors were actually turn
indicators. Also, the trucks came up so fast from nowhere that such
decisions were a non-starter.

[Paul Wolff]

On Sun, 19 Sep 2021, at 07:07:55, Jerry Friedman posted:

Limestone.

The crumbling follows acid rain, or earlier the presumably acid soot
deposited from coal-fired heating in the city.

I've been surprised by confident talk of sandstone here. Do you guys
know something I don't? Oxford sits close to the beginnings of the
Cotswold Hills which rise to the west before plunging down to the Severn
valley in Gloucestershire, and to the north until Edge Hill (cf Civil
War battles). Cotswold stone is limestone, and is what those pretty
Cotswold village houses and their tiled roofs are built of. Always build
from what's close at hand - it's cheaper.

Following that precept, the Oxford colleges were built from Headington
stone - both hardstone and freestone.
<http://www.headington.org.uk/history/quarries/introduction.html>
but while that doesn't say limestone, this does:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headington_stone>

Professor Brennen's account of undergraduate life in the early sixties
looks otherwise pretty accurate and common across the colleges - except
that it was always different: so many individuals, so many
personalities, so many interests. Athel went up the following year, I
the year after, each to different colleges, and we all shared that cold
winter. Undergraduate rooms in mine were mostly brick-built, and I don't
remember my gas fire failing me for warmth.

Someone else can do the stones of Cambridge.
--
Paul

[Jerry Friedman]

I think I'm the only person who said much about it (outside Australia), and
I don't think I was that confident.

> Do you guys
> know something I don't? Oxford sits close to the beginnings of the
> Cotswold Hills which rise to the west before plunging down to the Severn
> valley in Gloucestershire, and to the north until Edge Hill (cf Civil
> War battles). Cotswold stone is limestone, and is what those pretty
> Cotswold village houses and their tiled roofs are built of. Always build
> from what's close at hand - it's cheaper.
>
> Following that precept, the Oxford colleges were built from Headington
> stone - both hardstone and freestone.
> <http://www.headington.org.uk/history/quarries/introduction.html>
> but while that doesn't say limestone, this does:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headington_stone>

...

OK, I'm convinced. But here's another person who thinks it's sandstone.

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/travel-tips/holiday-travel-tips-Oxford-University-city-break-2.htm

Maybe LeCarré (or his character?) made the same error, and maybe the
crumbling and the yellowish color prompted the error.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

The story is apparently set in 1960, about the time I first saw Oxford,
and it was accurate then. In the years following the stone was
restored, and ceased to be black and crumbling. It remains uncrumbling
today, because there is very much less air pollution. If I remember
correctly a thorough cleaning and refacing cost around £300 000 per
college, a substantial sum at that time. The busts of famous chaps
around the Sheldonian no longer look as if they have tertiary syphilis.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Me too, but I didn't want to argue.

> Do you guys know something I don't? Oxford sits close to the beginnings
> of the Cotswold Hills which rise to the west before plunging down to
> the Severn valley in Gloucestershire, and to the north until Edge Hill
> (cf Civil War battles). Cotswold stone is limestone, and is what those
> pretty Cotswold village houses and their tiled roofs are built of.
> Always build from what's close at hand - it's cheaper.

Yes, I agree with all that (though the builders of Stonehenge don't
seem to have followed that precept).

>
> Following that precept, the Oxford colleges were built from Headington
> stone - both hardstone and freestone.
> <http://www.headington.org.uk/history/quarries/introduction.html>
> but while that doesn't say limestone, this does:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headington_stone>
>
> Professor Brennen's account of undergraduate life in the early sixties
> looks otherwise pretty accurate and common across the colleges - except
> that it was always different: so many individuals, so many
> personalities, so many interests. Athel went up the following year, I
> the year after, each to different colleges, and we all shared that cold
> winter.

Yes, the ground was icy for two whole months between Wadham and the
science area. It's never been like that since (though maybe it was in
1982 (?), when I didn't go to Oxford: a winter that put paid to the
Advanced Passenger Train, though it didn't last two months).

For those who don't know Oxford, I should mention that the older parts
of Oxford colleges are not known for central heating. A few years ago
we went to a meeting at Queen's (not really in winter) and a friend
from Barcelona decided he wasn't going to do anything until he had
bought a hot-water bottle.

> Undergraduate rooms in mine were mostly brick-built, and I don't
> remember my gas fire failing me for warmth.

I was in a new building for the two years I lived in college, and
warmth was not a problem.

>
> Someone else can do the stones of Cambridge.


--

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2021-09-19 14:45:38 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 06:53:54 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> And really, how useful is sandstone as a building material? Chicago
>> has been afraid of wood construction since 1871, and at first everything
>> was made of Indiana limestone, which is a pale yellow and seems to
>> have withstood weathering for a century and a half.
>
> Indiana limestone, to my eye, is gray. And, my eye has seen a lot of
> limestone. The older buildings on the Indiana University campus are
> limestone. I have spent quite a few weekend hours at the limestone
> quarries near Bloomington, Indiana. That's where we took dates and
> picnicked and swam. Many public buildings and private homes in
> Indianapolis were made of limestone.
>
> Limestone can be pale yellow if it was quarried from an area with a
> high iron or magnanese presence, but gray is the predominate color.

There is a lot of limestone around here, and it's essentially white.

>
> Drifting a bit, because I feel like it...Limestone-carrying trucks
> were the most frightening things to me when I was in college.

Between 1950 and 1955 I lived close to a china-clay pit. The lorries
that brought it out drove fast and without due attention to other road
users. They were the most frightening things around.

> Southern
> Indiana, unlike the northern part of the state, is hilly. Not
> moutainous, but certainly hilly.
>
> In the late 50s, when I was in college, my vehicle was a 1948 Austin
> A40 Devon. The engine power was roughly that of a sewing machine's
> output. Traveling around the area around Bloomington there were hills
> that the Austin strained to gain, but allowed a decent speed on the
> downside.
>
> Limestone was transported from the quarries in flatbed trucks that
> were often WWII surplus vehicles. On the downside of a hill, the
> weight of the limestone overcame any effect of brakes.
>
> With a limestone truck behind me on one of those roads, the truck
> would travel down the hill until it was almost in my backseat and my
> hope of survival was that I could increase the distance at the next
> uphill stretch. All I could do is refuse to look in the rearview
> mirror and hope. To look might have meant being paralyzed with fear.


--

[Janet]

In article <90eb47ca-7583-4faa...@googlegroups.com>,
gram...@verizon.net says...

>
> On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 4:52:40 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> > On 17/09/2021 21:26, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > > On Fri, 17 Sep 2021 21:04:40 +0100, soup <inv...@invalid.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 17/09/2021 16:20, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> (Quote) "Is he a Red Brick or a Sandstone"
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Class consciousness from "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy".
> > >>>
> > >> Possibly a question as to which type of university did he go to
> > >> Red brick tend to be the modern ones (think city ones) whilst sandstone
> > >> tend to be older, more classical architecture ones (think Oxford/Cambridge).
> > >>
> > >> From :-
> > >> https://www.theuniguide.co.uk
> > >>

> > >> The origins of the term ?red brick university? go back to the Victorian

> > >> era, when a number of specialist institutions gained independence and
> > >> became fully fledged universities in their own right.

> > >> These universities got their ?red brick? label from the style of

> > >> brickwork common at the time.
> > >>
> > >> Or it could just be what type of house does he live in.
> > >> An olde wolde country house :- Sandstone.
> > >> or a modern inner city suburban house :- Red Brick
> > >
> > > Interesting analysis. Not certain that it is applicable.
> > >
> > "Red brick" is certainly a reference to a range of newer universities
> > which lack the prestige of those older establishments.
> > I don't recall coming across the "Sandstone" reference before, since it
> > suggests that older universities are built alike - which I don't believe.
>
> And really, how useful is sandstone as a building material?

Oxford University buildings are still holding up 500+ years later.

Much of Glasgow was built in sandstone, from medieval times on.

Janet.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, September 19, 2021 at 10:45:46 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 06:53:54 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> >And really, how useful is sandstone as a building material? Chicago
> >has been afraid of wood construction since 1871, and at first everything
> >was made of Indiana limestone, which is a pale yellow and seems to
> >have withstood weathering for a century and a half.
>
> Indiana limestone, to my eye, is gray. And, my eye has seen a lot of
> limestone. The older buildings on the Indiana University campus are

Perhaps you saw only quarries far from Chicago, which yielded a
different color of stone. The two north-south blocks just east of
Wells St. were lined with (yellow) Indiana limestone townhouses.
(in my time, of course. By now they may have been replaced by
something developers could make more money off of.) Not any
more. I think I found one at Google Street View of 1404 N. LaSalle,
if you want to see one maybe. But just about everything in those
two blocks is clearly less than 25 years old.

I'll thank you NOT to try to contradict everything I say.

> limestone. I have spent quite a few weekend hours at the limestone
> quarries near Bloomington, Indiana. That's where we took dates and
> picnicked and swam. Many public buildings and private homes in
> Indianapolis were made of limestone.
>
> Limestone can be pale yellow if it was quarried from an area with a
> high iron or magnanese presence, but gray is the predominate color.

The architecture tours would routinely name the quarry/ies that
Chicago's limestone came from, but I don't remember any names.

Aha -- swimming into my ken comes "Lamont limestone." Which
apparently names a kind, not a specific place.

[J. J. Lodder]

Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
[improperly wrapped stuff]

> > At the very least, the point of "redbrick" must be that the older
> > universities don't use much brick. But specifically,
> >
> > '...we caught the train that, after several changes, would finally
> > deliver us to Oxford. I remember walking through the streets of this
> > strange city with its crumbling, sandstone buildings to Balliol College,
> > where, strangest of all, the porter at the front gate referred to me as
> > "sir".'
> >
> > https://authors.library.caltech.edu/42498/15/autobiography/autoballiol.htm
> >
> > (The writer is the Richard L. and Dorothy M. Hayman Professor of
> > Mechanical Engineering, Emeritus, at Caltech.)
> >
> > But maybe our Oxonians will comment.
>
> The story is apparently set in 1960, about the time I first saw Oxford,
> and it was accurate then. In the years following the stone was
> restored, and ceased to be black and crumbling. It remains uncrumbling
> today, because there is very much less air pollution. If I remember
> correctly a thorough cleaning and refacing cost around £300 000 per
> college, a substantial sum at that time. The busts of famous chaps
> around the Sheldonian no longer look as if they have tertiary syphilis.

Transporting stones in bulk was quite expensive,
so everything had to be built with material
that could be obtained not too far away.

Cheap bulk transport required canals and railways,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> On 2021-09-18 09:48:42 +0000, Neill Massello said:
>

> > On 2021-09-17 at 14:26:50 MDT, "Mack A. Damia" <drstee...@yahoo.com>:

> >
> >> "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy is about betrayal at the highest levels of
> >> the British intelligence bureaucracy. The story is also loosely based
> >> on the case of the infamous Cambridge spy ring that passed on valuable
> >> information to the Soviet Union. The fact that these traitors were
> >> pillars of British society, shocked a nation that prided itself on
> >> safeguarding traditions and believing in the stable rigidity of class
> >> distinctions."
> >
> > I suppose Kim Philby and the others could be described as red sandstone.
>
> I don't remember Oxford or Cambridge being referred to as sandstone,
> though maybe they are. At least one college (Keble) is as redbrick as
> you could ask for. It was called (though not by its inmates) The
> largest public toilet in the world.

Red brick being ugly is fairly recent snobbery,
as British history goes. (say from late 18th)

Red brick was still good enough for Henry VIII,

Jan

[Sam Plusnet]

Not all "Sandstones" are equal. Some make a pretty good building
material and some are too soft and are all too easily damaged by pollution.
Our house is sandstone, but it is 'rubble built' and stuccoed so the
stone is not exposed.

> Looking for a contrast with "red brick," wouldn't "granite" have been more
> impressive?

Pointless to mention granite unless the relevant places were built from it.

I'm currently in Cornwall where there is one heck of a lot of granite &
many older houses are built from it. It isn't an ideal building
material as it can't really be finely shaped. It does last very well in
a harsh climate.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

Quite the reverse, from the History programs I've seen; back then brick was: New!, Cool!, Trendy, and (/because) Expensive.


--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Lanarcam]

Le 19/09/2021 à 22:09, Sam Plusnet a écrit :
>
> I'm currently in Cornwall where there is one heck of a lot of granite &
> many older houses are built from it.  It isn't an ideal building
> material as it can't really be finely shaped.  It does last very well in
> a harsh climate.

Have you heard about the radon gaz that develops in houses built in
granite? It causes lung cancer.

[Mack A. Damia]

Okay, but what is its significance in the verbal exchange of the
screenplay? Is it Oxford/Cambridge verses technical/vocational
colleges?

[Janet]

In article <g97fkg9hcq6nm7o5c...@4ax.com>,
drstee...@yahoo.com says...

No. Redbricks are universities. Oxford and Cambridge are centuries-
old with long traditions; the redbricks are more recent.

Janet.

[Mack A. Damia]

Old money versus the nouveau riche?

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 12:24:56 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Sunday, September 19, 2021 at 10:45:46 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 06:53:54 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> >And really, how useful is sandstone as a building material? Chicago
>> >has been afraid of wood construction since 1871, and at first everything
>> >was made of Indiana limestone, which is a pale yellow and seems to
>> >have withstood weathering for a century and a half.
>>
>> Indiana limestone, to my eye, is gray. And, my eye has seen a lot of
>> limestone. The older buildings on the Indiana University campus are
>
>Perhaps you saw only quarries far from Chicago, which yielded a
>different color of stone.

Limestone is not, and has not ever been, quarried north of
Indianapolis in Indiana. Bloomington and Bedford - about 60 and75
miles south of Indianapolis - are in the heart of the limestone quarry
area. All Indiana limestone is in the Salem Formation on which both
of those cities are located.

> The two north-south blocks just east of
>Wells St. were lined with (yellow) Indiana limestone townhouses.
>(in my time, of course. By now they may have been replaced by
>something developers could make more money off of.) Not any
>more. I think I found one at Google Street View of 1404 N. LaSalle,
>if you want to see one maybe. But just about everything in those
>two blocks is clearly less than 25 years old.
>
>I'll thank you NOT to try to contradict everything I say.

I don't think it works that way here. In fact, I'm sure it doesn't.

>
>> limestone. I have spent quite a few weekend hours at the limestone
>> quarries near Bloomington, Indiana. That's where we took dates and
>> picnicked and swam. Many public buildings and private homes in
>> Indianapolis were made of limestone.

I acknowledged that you could see yellow limestone, but most limestone
is from very light gray - almost white - to medium gray.

>>
>> Limestone can be pale yellow if it was quarried from an area with a
>> high iron or magnanese presence, but gray is the predominate color.
>
>The architecture tours would routinely name the quarry/ies that
>Chicago's limestone came from, but I don't remember any names.
>
>Aha -- swimming into my ken comes "Lamont limestone." Which
>apparently names a kind, not a specific place.

Your ken has a limited span. Lemont limestone is limestone from
around a place: Lemont, Illinois. Lemont limestone is yellow
dolomite.

Those homes you saw may have been yellow limestone, but more likely to
have been made from Lemont limestone from southwest Cook County, not
Indiana limestone. Lemont limestone was used in Chicago from the
late 1830s when the Illinois and Michigan canal was built and the
limestone was removed during the construction.

The Chicago Water Tower is constructed of Lemont limestone. I would
say that it is more gray than yellowish, but it had been in place for
almost a 100 years when I first saw it, so I don't know how almost a
century of exposure to the elements in Chicago have affected the
color.

https://www.architecture.org/learn/resources/buildings-of-chicago/building/chicago-water-tower/

Tribune Tower - which I once walked into and out of every weekday -
was constructed of Indiana limestone, and it appears to be the same
color as the Chicago Water Tower.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Tribune_Tower_Brick_and_Rock_Collection%2C_Chicago%2C_Illinois_%2811004276696%29.jpg/800px-Tribune_Tower_Brick_and_Rock_Collection%2C_Chicago%2C_Illinois_%2811004276696%29.jpg

Of course, Trib Tower had been built a mere 30-some years before I
first saw it.

[Paul Wolff]

On Sun, 19 Sep 2021, at 09:43:10, Jerry Friedman posted:

>On Sunday, September 19, 2021 at 10:10:03 AM UTC-6, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021, at 07:07:55, Jerry Friedman posted:
>> >

In my experience, other people aren't always right, especially when they
are talking about somebody else's subject.

Here's a last word.
The Stones that built Oxford
The History of Oxford Building Stone
by Phil Kerry of Goldholme Stone,
a quarry stone supplier based in Rutland and Lincolnshire

<https://goldholme.com/the-stone-that-built-oxford/>
--
Paul

[Peter Moylan]

Logging trucks are a hazard in a mountainous area near here. The trucks
take almost the full width of the (often muddy) road, their brakes don't
work, and there's no way to pull over without going off a precipice.

My wife was nearly wiped out by a logging truck in Scotland. She was
taking a photograph from a bridge. Suddenly a truck appeared from around
a curve, going at about twice the speed limit, and it looked to be about
the same width as the bridge. She ran like crazy; didn't think of diving
into the stream.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Peter Moylan]

Bricks are easier to transport. Sandstone comes in huge blocks that have
to be hauled by slaves.

[Tony Cooper]

Lemont limestone is also known as Joliet-Lemont limestone:
https://www.esconi.org/esconi_earth_science_club/2013/04/what-do-you-know-about-joliet-lemont-limestone-.html\
Joliet and Lemont are about 12 miles apart, so both are on the same
formation.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Sunday, September 19, 2021 at 9:46:49 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:

[the wages of fear of trucks carrying limestone]

> Logging trucks are a hazard in a mountainous area near here. The trucks
> take almost the full width of the (often muddy) road, their brakes don't
> work, and there's no way to pull over without going off a precipice.
>
> My wife was nearly wiped out by a logging truck in Scotland. She was
> taking a photograph from a bridge. Suddenly a truck appeared from around
> a curve, going at about twice the speed limit, and it looked to be about
> the same width as the bridge. She ran like crazy; didn't think of diving
> into the stream.

Speaking of movies, /Stand By Me/. But you can get hurt diving into a
stream, too.

In 1999, two women were killed in my town when the logs on a logging
truck slipped off onto their car.

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/11639895/espanola-logging-truck-fatal/

The truck probably looked something like this.

https://pixels.com/featured/peterbilt-logging-truck-rambles-on-highway-70-new-mexico-wernher-krutein.html

--
Jerry Friedman

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> And really, how useful is sandstone as a building material?

A large percentage of historical churches in Germany and neighboring
countries was built from it, besides many other buildings in certain
areas. Weathering has become a major problem only in the 20th century,
mainly with the spread of cars.

--
Democracy means government by the uneducated,
while aristocracy means government by the badly educated.
-- G. K. Chesterton

[J. J. Lodder]

Bill Bryson has a chapter (Cellar) mostly on brick, in his:
At Home: A Short History of Private Life
Summary: The art of making good bricks and laying them correctly
was a medieval Dutch development.
Henry and others imported the technology and the craftsmen.
It really is not as simple as it seems,

Jan

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

He might have done. It is mentioned publicly from time to time.
For instance:
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/radon-gas-silent-killer-countryside-2047987.html

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Jerry Friedman]

And this seems to be one of those times, so thanks for the correction.

But I'm surprised that LeCarré made a mistake like that, or that Martindale
did and Smiley didn't correct him, despite aiming invective at him in his
thoughts.

Or is there any other explanation for bringing up sandstone instead of limestone?

> Here's a last word.
> The Stones that built Oxford
> The History of Oxford Building Stone
> by Phil Kerry of Goldholme Stone,
> a quarry stone supplier based in Rutland and Lincolnshire
>
> <https://goldholme.com/the-stone-that-built-oxford/>

Who has a lot of good things to say about Clipsham stone, from Lincolnshire.

--
Jerry Friedman

[CDB]

On 9/19/2021 6:19 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

[limestone diversity]

>> Aha -- swimming into my ken comes "Lamont limestone." Which
>> apparently names a kind, not a specific place.

> Your ken has a limited span.

Maybe Ken's tail has dropped off. Parasites in hs waterbowl? He used
to be a swinging cat.

> Lemont limestone is limestone from around a place: Lemont,
> Illinois. Lemont limestone is yellow dolomite.

[Chicago limestone]

[Peter T. Daniels]

(TC didn't google < lamont limestone > and see the worldwide
assortment of hits on the front page of Image results.)

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:40:49 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Monday, September 20, 2021 at 10:27:34 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
>> On 9/19/2021 6:19 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> [limestone diversity]
>> >> Aha -- swimming into my ken comes "Lamont limestone." Which
>> >> apparently names a kind, not a specific place.
>> > Your ken has a limited span.
>> Maybe Ken's tail has dropped off. Parasites in hs waterbowl? He used
>> to be a swinging cat.
>> > Lemont limestone is limestone from around a place: Lemont,
>> > Illinois. Lemont limestone is yellow dolomite.
>>
>> [Chicago limestone]
>
>(TC didn't google < lamont limestone > and see the worldwide
>assortment of hits on the front page of Image results.)

Actually, spelling it "Lemont ", I did.

What was displayed were buildings, some of which were yellowish
limestone. I had already agreed that some limestone can be described
as "pale yellow", but most limestone - particularly Indiana limestone
- is in the gray range.

What I *didn't* do is state that: "Indiana limestone, which is a pale
yellow" as you did or confuse Indiana limestone and Illinois
limestone.

I suspect that when you made the comment that you were unaware that
not all limestone is quarried in Indiana, and that you were under the
impression that all the Chicago limestone buildings were built with
Indiana limestone.

[Snidely]

On Sunday, Jerry Friedman exclaimed wildly:

Oregon logging trucks are similar. Finding models of that style
requires patience (but yes, they can be found in HO).

/dps

--
"Inviting people to laugh with you while you are laughing at yourself
is a good thing to do, You may be a fool but you're the fool in
charge." -- Carl Reiner

[Snidely]

Lanarcam submitted this gripping article, maybe on Sunday:

In the US, we just use basements for that.

/dps

--
As a colleague once told me about an incoming manager,
"He does very well in a suck-up, kick-down culture."
Bill in Vancouver

[Sam Plusnet]

On 19/09/2021 21:03, J. J. Lodder wrote:


> Red brick being ugly is fairly recent snobbery,
> as British history goes. (say from late 18th)
>
> Red brick was still good enough for Henry VIII,
>

By the 18th Century, nothing was good for Henry Mk.8.

[Sam Plusnet]

On 20/09/2021 03:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 20/09/21 01:04, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 6:37:16 PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>
>>> I would have thought that brick is more expensive than sandstone. I
>>> really have no knowledge of the cost of either, but that is what came
>>> to mind.
>>
>> Sandstone has to be broken out of solid rock, but I don't know
>> either.
>
> Bricks are easier to transport. Sandstone comes in huge blocks that have
> to be hauled by slaves.
>

For many of those earliest Stately Homes to be built in brick, the
bricks were made on site from (more or less) local materials.

Ditto for mud brick in Mesopotamia I imagine.

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Monday, September 20, 2021 at 12:25:47 PM UTC-7, Snidely wrote:
> On Sunday, Jerry Friedman exclaimed wildly:
> > On Sunday, September 19, 2021 at 9:46:49 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >
> > [the wages of fear of trucks carrying limestone]
> >
> >> Logging trucks are a hazard in a mountainous area near here. The trucks
> >> take almost the full width of the (often muddy) road, their brakes don't
> >> work, and there's no way to pull over without going off a precipice.
> >>
> >> My wife was nearly wiped out by a logging truck in Scotland. She was
> >> taking a photograph from a bridge. Suddenly a truck appeared from around
> >> a curve, going at about twice the speed limit, and it looked to be about
> >> the same width as the bridge. She ran like crazy; didn't think of diving
> >> into the stream.
> >
> > Speaking of movies, /Stand By Me/. But you can get hurt diving into a
> > stream, too.
> >
> > In 1999, two women were killed in my town when the logs on a logging
> > truck slipped off onto their car.
> >
> > https://www.newspapers.com/clip/11639895/espanola-logging-truck-fatal/
> >
> > The truck probably looked something like this.
> >
> > https://pixels.com/featured/peterbilt-logging-truck-rambles-on-highway-70-new-mexico-wernher-krutein.html
> Oregon logging trucks are similar. Finding models of that style
> requires patience (but yes, they can be found in HO).
>

Logging trucks like that were being used in Haida Gwaii (then called
the Queen Charlotte Islands) when I spent a few weeks there in the 1980s.
There was one stretch of road that was both an active logging road
and the only route to our campground. The trucks were about as wide
as the road, and there were very few pullouts. Dense forest on both
sides of the road, of course.

The instruction for tourists was to stop and wait when you reached
a fork in the road beyond which there were logging trucks. When
a truck passed in the direction you wanted to go, you pulled out
and followed the truck as closely as possible. That kept you safe
from oncoming trucks. The truck drivers communicated with each
other by radio, which prevented collisions.

When you reached your turnoff, you had to turn quickly, before
another truck came along. Same thing getting off the road.
The logging trucks were so heavy it took them a while to
slow and stop, so the tourists had to make all the adjustments.

The trip was kind of hairy, but the campground was worth it.
There was fresh-water well with a pump, a few picnic tables,
wooden outhouses, and many shades of green. The ground
was covered with thick moss, and Spanish moss hung
from every tree branch.

bill

[Sam Plusnet]

?? Where does money come into this?
It's an issue of perceived social status, not money in old or new notes.

[Sam Plusnet]

It's been a know issue for quite a few decades. Cornish houses which
are/might be susceptible to this usually have a fan fitted in the cellar
or under the floorboards which diverts airflow to the outside.

[Paul Wolff]

On Mon, 20 Sep 2021, at 06:06:16, Jerry Friedman posted:

Dr Johnson and the pastern come to mind.

Seen from a distance, seen when covered by sooty deposits from before
the Clean Air Act 1956 ("An Act to make provision for abating the
pollution of the air"), limestone and sandstone can be somewhat similar
in texture and colour, and deployed in comparably-sized blocks in
buildings. Cotswold limestone is typically Oolitic, meaning (per OED)
"any limestone composed of small rounded granules like the roe of a
fish. Now spec. any of a series of such limestones and other sedimentary
rocks of the Jurassic system, lying above the lias." Those granules are
not dissimilar to the grains in sandstone (IMO).

Oolitic limestone can be sandy. From a British Geological Survey report
(hey, the BGS is based only a handful of miles form where I sit):

"The Chipping Norton Limestone, which may include the underlying Hook
Norton Limestone of Oxfordshire, reaches a maximum thickness of about
12m in the Hornsleasow (formerly Snowshill) Quarry, about 4km
west-south-west of Bourton-on-the-Water. This formation exhibits
considerable lithological variation. Typically, it consists of buff,
hard, rather sandy and splintery oolite, often cross-bedded, containing
minute specks of lignite; elsewhere the beds are flaggy and have been
worked in the past for flagstones. Decalcification has in some cases
reduced it to sand."

That's from
<http://earthwise.bgs.ac.uk/index.php/Great_Oolite_Group,_Middle_Jurassic
,_Cirencester%E2%80%94North_Cotswolds,_Bath%E2%80%94Cotswolds_Province>
which includes some of Oxfordshire but may not actually be about the
stone used in Oxford's older college buildings. Still, it illustrates
sandy limestone in the vicinity.

>
>> Here's a last word.
>> The Stones that built Oxford
>> The History of Oxford Building Stone
>> by Phil Kerry of Goldholme Stone,
>> a quarry stone supplier based in Rutland and Lincolnshire
>>
>> <https://goldholme.com/the-stone-that-built-oxford/>
>
>Who has a lot of good things to say about Clipsham stone, from Lincolnshire.
>

Good for him!
--
Paul

[J. J. Lodder]

For the one day in the year that it is not storming?

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

That Henry was never replaced by a later model,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

And you can often see in the park where the clay came from,
(look for the water feature)

Jan

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, September 20, 2021 at 2:00:43 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:40:49 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Monday, September 20, 2021 at 10:27:34 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
> >> On 9/19/2021 6:19 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> >> [limestone diversity]
> >> >> Aha -- swimming into my ken comes "Lamont limestone." Which
> >> >> apparently names a kind, not a specific place.
> >> > Your ken has a limited span.
> >> Maybe Ken's tail has dropped off. Parasites in hs waterbowl? He used
> >> to be a swinging cat.
> >> > Lemont limestone is limestone from around a place: Lemont,
> >> > Illinois. Lemont limestone is yellow dolomite.
> >> [Chicago limestone]
> >(TC didn't google < lamont limestone > and see the worldwide
>
> >assortment of hits on the front page of Image results.)
> Actually, spelling it "Lemont ", I did.

Meaning that your results are irrelevant to my results.

You may have intimate knowledge of the surroundings of Joliet.
Chicagoans know it only as the site of a notorious penitentiary,
and as a neighbor of Romeoville. (Yes, not a coincidence.)

> What was displayed were buildings, some of which were yellowish
> limestone. I had already agreed that some limestone can be described
> as "pale yellow", but most limestone - particularly Indiana limestone
> - is in the gray range.
>
> What I *didn't* do is state that: "Indiana limestone, which is a pale
> yellow" as you did or confuse Indiana limestone and Illinois
> limestone.

I again request that you stop trying to "show me up" with your every
posting, especialluy on matters concerning which you are profoundly
ignorant -- such as Chicago architecture.

The -- well-educated -- docents of the Chicago Architecture Foundation,
who lead neighborhood tours, routinely point out "Indiana limestone" as
a building material, and said "Indiana limestone" is routinely a pale yellow.

> I suspect that when you made the comment that you were unaware that
> not all limestone is quarried in Indiana, and that you were under the
> impression that all the Chicago limestone buildings were built with
> Indiana limestone.

My God. Stop imputing your ignorance to everyone else. Limestone
comes from all over the world. (Such as Oxfordshire.) The limestone
that was routinely used in Chicago was called "Indiana limestone,"
and a more specific name was put to some of it.

[Snidely]

Sam Plusnet was thinking very hard :

And social status is often times a function of how much money AND of
whether you're a Johnny Upstart. "Old Money vs New" is most often a
discussion of social status, IME. This was true 200 years ago in
Britain when Old Money was landed gentry and New was
merchants-and-manufacturers, and is true in the US where the
Vanderbilts and Rockefellers are compared to the Musks and Bezoses.

/dps


--
Who, me? And what lacuna?

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 14:14:23 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Monday, September 20, 2021 at 2:00:43 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:40:49 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >On Monday, September 20, 2021 at 10:27:34 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
>> >> On 9/19/2021 6:19 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> >> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> >> [limestone diversity]
>> >> >> Aha -- swimming into my ken comes "Lamont limestone." Which
>> >> >> apparently names a kind, not a specific place.
>> >> > Your ken has a limited span.
>> >> Maybe Ken's tail has dropped off. Parasites in hs waterbowl? He used
>> >> to be a swinging cat.
>> >> > Lemont limestone is limestone from around a place: Lemont,
>> >> > Illinois. Lemont limestone is yellow dolomite.
>> >> [Chicago limestone]
>> >(TC didn't google < lamont limestone > and see the worldwide
>>
>> >assortment of hits on the front page of Image results.)
>> Actually, spelling it "Lemont ", I did.
>
>Meaning that your results are irrelevant to my results.

Now you are lying. You stated your results showed limestone
buildings. No buildings are shown at the "lamont limestone" image
page. Your search was re-directed to the same page I went to.

Google does that when you spell things incorrectly and keywords take
over and "Including results for LEMONT LIMESTONE" jumps in.

>You may have intimate knowledge of the surroundings of Joliet.
>Chicagoans know it only as the site of a notorious penitentiary,
>and as a neighbor of Romeoville. (Yes, not a coincidence.)


>> What was displayed were buildings, some of which were yellowish
>> limestone. I had already agreed that some limestone can be described
>> as "pale yellow", but most limestone - particularly Indiana limestone
>> - is in the gray range.
>>
>> What I *didn't* do is state that: "Indiana limestone, which is a pale
>> yellow" as you did or confuse Indiana limestone and Illinois
>> limestone.
>
>I again request that you stop trying to "show me up" with your every
>posting, especialluy on matters concerning which you are profoundly
>ignorant -- such as Chicago architecture.

This is not about "Chicago architecture". It's about a building
material used in Chicago area - limestone - and a building material
that I have had more years than you observing.

It's about a flat-out incorrect catagorical statement that Indiana
limestone is "pale yellow". That statement precludes other colors,
when - in fact - Indiana limestone colors range from buff to gray with
the most-seen color being in the gray range.

https://www.bybeestone.com/limestone/colors-finishes/

That most Indiana limestone buildings are in the gray range is an
observable fact. I can go to downtown Orlando and look at the old
courthouse (now the Orange County Regional History Center) which is
Indiana limestone.

This could have been simple. I would have accepted "pale yellow" as a
description of "buff", if you had said "some Indiana limestone is pale
yellow" but you had to be catagorical about it.

>The -- well-educated -- docents of the Chicago Architecture Foundation,
>who lead neighborhood tours, routinely point out "Indiana limestone" as
>a building material, and said "Indiana limestone" is routinely a pale yellow.

Now I think you are outright lying. You're recounting a recollection
of what was said several years ago and imputing a false memory of what
was said. No informed person would say that Indiana limestone is
*routinely* a pale yellow, or even "routinely a buff color".

You have ignored that Joliet-Lemont limestone was closer to your "pale
yellow" description and that some Chicago buildings could have used
that limestone and that's where the docent's comments could have
applied without the "Indiana" part.

>> I suspect that when you made the comment that you were unaware that
>> not all limestone is quarried in Indiana, and that you were under the
>> impression that all the Chicago limestone buildings were built with
>> Indiana limestone.
>
>My God. Stop imputing your ignorance to everyone else.

Easy to impute ignorance to you when you didn't even know the source
of pale yellow limestone or why some limestone is pale yellow instead
of in the gray range as is most limestone.

>comes from all over the world. (Such as Oxfordshire.) The limestone
>that was routinely used in Chicago was called "Indiana limestone,"
>and a more specific name was put to some of it.

Is this a reference to "Lamont" [sic]? What you claimed was a type,
not a place? Don't be silly.

If a term was applied, it would have been "Bedford", not "Lamont"
[sic].

[Peter Moylan]

"Brickworks Park" appears to be a popular name.

Brickworks Park in Wallsend, not far from where I live, is a pleasant
place to walk through. It's only when you look at the edges that you
realise that half a hill is missing. This was more obvious back in the
days - not so very long ago - where they were still making bricks there.

[charles]

In article <tb5akg1kkcrlf7j54...@4ax.com>,

Mack A. Damia <drstee...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2021 21:04:40 +0100, soup <inv...@invalid.com> wrote:

> >On 17/09/2021 16:20, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >>
> >> (Quote) "Is he a Red Brick or a Sandstone"
> >>
> >>
> >> Class consciousness from "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy".
> >>
> > Possibly a question as to which type of university did he go to
> >Red brick tend to be the modern ones (think city ones) whilst sandstone
> >tend to be older, more classical architecture ones (think Oxford/Cambridge).
> >
> > From :-
> >https://www.theuniguide.co.uk
> >

> >The origins of the term ‘red brick university’ go back to the Victorian

> >era, when a number of specialist institutions gained independence and
> >became fully fledged universities in their own right.

> >These universities got their ‘red brick’ label from the style of

> >brickwork common at the time.
> >
> >Or it could just be what type of house does he live in.
> > An olde wolde country house :- Sandstone.
> >or a modern inner city suburban house :- Red Brick

> That may be the answer. Found this from the 1979 screenplay script
> starring Alec Guinness:

> You featherhead, Martindale! You pompous,
> bogus, gossiping old featherhead!

> Roy Bland is not redbrick.
> He was at St Antony's College, Oxford.

> Oh, don't be silly, dear.
> Of course St Antony is redbrick.

> Makes no difference there's a bit
> of sandstone in the same street.

My Cambridge college was made of red brick - in 1428. There's not a lot of
stone in the Fens.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Janet]

In article <1pftudh.cgm...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>, nospam@de-
ster.demon.nl says...

He was/is, but the latest Henry has been shipped off to America.

Janet

[Peter T. Daniels]

And I only looked at the hits with the spelling < lamont >.

The amount of bad faith you display mushrooms daily.

[J. J. Lodder]

Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> * Peter T. Daniels:
>
> > And really, how useful is sandstone as a building material?
>
> A large percentage of historical churches in Germany and neighboring
> countries was built from it, besides many other buildings in certain
> areas. Weathering has become a major problem only in the 20th century,
> mainly with the spread of cars.

Sandstone will weather anyway because it is not really frost-resistant.
If you go to Portugal you can see
what a difference not having frosts makes,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, September 19, 2021 at 9:46:49 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> [the wages of fear of trucks carrying limestone]
>
> > Logging trucks are a hazard in a mountainous area near here. The trucks
> > take almost the full width of the (often muddy) road, their brakes don't
> > work, and there's no way to pull over without going off a precipice.
> >
> > My wife was nearly wiped out by a logging truck in Scotland. She was
> > taking a photograph from a bridge. Suddenly a truck appeared from around
> > a curve, going at about twice the speed limit, and it looked to be about
> > the same width as the bridge. She ran like crazy; didn't think of diving
> > into the stream.
>
> Speaking of movies, /Stand By Me/. But you can get hurt diving into a
> stream, too.
>
> In 1999, two women were killed in my town when the logs on a logging
> truck slipped off onto their car.
>
> https://www.newspapers.com/clip/11639895/espanola-logging-truck-fatal/
>
> The truck probably looked something like this.
>
> https://pixels.com/featured/peterbilt-logging-truck-rambles-on-highway-70-new-
mexico-wernher-krutein.html

Getting killed by a log falling off is overdoing it.
A mere floorboard will do,

Jan

[Sam Plusnet]

Accurate but not particularly relevant in this context.
Here the distinction is being drawn between having been educated at an
older university or a much newer institution.
Students could attend either type and a student grant would have covered
the costs in either case (in the time period under discussion). You
didn't have to come from 'Old Money' or indeed any money at all to gain
a place.

[Tak To]

On 9/20/2021 8:01 AM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 22:22:51 +0200, Lanarcam <lana...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>
>> Le 19/09/2021 à 22:09, Sam Plusnet a écrit :
>>>
>>> I'm currently in Cornwall where there is one heck of a lot of granite &
>>> many older houses are built from it.  It isn't an ideal building
>>> material as it can't really be finely shaped.  It does last very well in
>>> a harsh climate.
>>
>> Have you heard about the radon gaz that develops in houses built in
>> granite? It causes lung cancer.
>
> He might have done. It is mentioned publicly from time to time.
> For instance:
> https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/radon-gas-silent-killer-countryside-2047987.html

This article does not actually say that. It says radon is
more abundant in areas of the country that are rich in
granite.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 17:00:49 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>
wrote:

>On 9/20/2021 8:01 AM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 22:22:51 +0200, Lanarcam <lana...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>>
>>> Le 19/09/2021 à 22:09, Sam Plusnet a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> I'm currently in Cornwall where there is one heck of a lot of granite &
>>>> many older houses are built from it.  It isn't an ideal building
>>>> material as it can't really be finely shaped.  It does last very well in
>>>> a harsh climate.
>>>
>>> Have you heard about the radon gaz that develops in houses built in
>>> granite? It causes lung cancer.
>>
>> He might have done. It is mentioned publicly from time to time.
>> For instance:
>> https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/radon-gas-silent-killer-countryside-2047987.html
>
>This article does not actually say that. It says radon is
>more abundant in areas of the country that are rich in
>granite.

I take it radon is a problem in Vermont.

[Tony Cooper]

Arrgh. New Hampshire, not Vermont.

Why do self-corrections come to mind only *after* pushing "Send"?

[Paul Wolff]

On Tue, 21 Sep 2021, at 21:15:41, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> posted:

>On 20/09/2021 22:21, Snidely wrote:
>> Sam Plusnet was thinking very hard :
>>> On 19/09/2021 23:07, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 22:22:09 +0100, Janet <nob...@hame.cock> wrote:
>>>>> drstee...@yahoo.com says...
>>>>>> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 19:04:47 +0100, Janet <nob...@hame.cock> wrote:

>>>>>>> gram...@verizon.net says...

>>>>>>>>Plusnet wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 17/09/2021 21:26, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 17 Sep 2021 21:04:40 +0100, soup <inv...@invalid.com>

>>>>>>>>>>> On 17/09/2021 16:20, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> (Quote) "Is he a Red Brick or a Sandstone"
>>>>>>>>>>>> Class consciousness from "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Possibly a question as to which type of university did he go to
>>>>>>>>>>> Red brick tend to be the modern ones (think city ones)
>>>>>>>>>>>whilst sandstone
>>>>>>>>>>> tend to be older, more classical architecture ones (think
>>>>>>>>>>>Oxford/Cambridge).

Mack A. Damia associated "Is he a Red Brick or a Sandstone" with "Class
consciousness from "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy"." I think M.A.D. was
wrong. The material difference at that time, as perceived in 'the
Circus', wouldn't have been due to social class, but rather to ability.
The filtration processes governing university admissions in Britain at
that time were focussed on the three A's - academic ability and aptitude
- and (in my honest opinion) the status conferred by an Oxford or
Cambridge degree derived from the fact that you'd managed to get
accepted into the university at all, far above that you had stuck it out
and graduated three or four years later.

Subject to my re-reading the book and seeing the actual context: the
quoted question looks like a veiled enquiry into the intellectual weight
or authority to be given to 'him'. That is, to the him who is 'he'.
--
Paul

[Snidely]

Thus spake Sam Plusnet:

Okay, that's useful information.

-d

--
Trust, but verify.

[Mack A. Damia]

My concern is that we are doing to much assuming here. We don't know
the meaning of the verbal exchange, specifically, red brick and
sandstone - at least I don't think we do.

Again:

Found this from the 1979 screenplay script:

You featherhead, Martindale! You pompous,
bogus, gossiping old featherhead!

Roy Bland is not redbrick.
He was at St Antony's College, Oxford.

Oh, don't be silly, dear.
Of course St Antony is redbrick.

Makes no difference there's a bit
of sandstone in the same street.

*****************************************

Contrary to the last exchange, there IS a difference, but what is it?
It's "class" as an Oxford/Cambridge education is a hallmark of
distinction and is considered "highbrow".

Why else for the insistence that St. Antony's College is redbrick?

What could this mean?

".......there's a bit of sandstone in the same street."

[Peter Moylan]

On 22/09/21 07:15, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> Here the distinction is being drawn between having been educated at
> an older university or a much newer institution. Students could
> attend either type and a student grant would have covered the costs
> in either case (in the time period under discussion). You didn't
> have to come from 'Old Money' or indeed any money at all to gain a
> place.

My first degree is from one of the "best" Australian universities
(Melbourne), but after graduation I realised that it was all smoke and
mirrors. At the time Melbourne University was going through a bad slump.
The Medical Faculty was taking so much of the budget that other
disciplines were badly understaffed. In electrical engineering the best
people had left to move to a newer university. Realistically, it was a
low-quality institution.

But the general public doesn't know about such details. They just see
the ivy and the old buildings and so on.

One area in which Melbourne University was superior was the Old Boy
network. I threw that away by moving to another city. Some of my fellow
engineering graduates used it to move into high-paying jobs in finance.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 4:39:01 PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 21:57:16 +0100, Paul Wolff
> <boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

...

Let me just rewrite that with more context and the speakers' names.
Martindale of the Foreign Office wants to know who's pulling the strings
at "the Circus" (British intelligence).

Martindale: All right, then, it's Roy Bland, the shop-soiled white hope.
The first redbrick don to make the Circus.

If it's neither of them, and Control is really dead, then there's only one
possibility left. It's someone who's pretending to be in retirement.
YOU, George. Admit it!

Smiley: You featherhead, Martindale! You pompous, bogus, gossiping

old featherhead! Roy Bland is not redbrick. He was at St Antony's
College, Oxford.

Martindale: Oh, don't be silly, dear. Of course St Antony is redbrick.

Makes no difference there's a bit of sandstone in the same street.

> Contrary to the last exchange, there IS a difference, but what is it?
> It's "class" as an Oxford/Cambridge education is a hallmark of
> distinction and is considered "highbrow".
>
> Why else for the insistence that St. Antony's College is redbrick?

Paul's explanation above seems fine. Oxford and Cambridge had
more exclusive admissions than redbrick universities at the time.

> What could this mean?
>
> ".......there's a bit of sandstone in the same street."

It means a) that like some other people, LeCarré mistook the
grainy, yellowish oolitic limestone of Oxford buildings (as Paul
described it) for sandstone, and b) Martindale says that St.
Antony's College is like a redbrick university even though it's
part of Oxford University, that is, the "sandstone" in the same
street makes no difference.

By the way, St. Antony (founded 1950) specializes in international
relations, and Wikipedia says that since its founding it's been
connected with British intelligence.

--
Jerry Friedman

[J. J. Lodder]

It does help (but not always enough) if you get an off-line newsclient,

Jan

[Jerry Friedman]

On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 10:14:06 PM UTC-6, Jerry Friedman wrote:
...

> > What could this mean?
> >
> > ".......there's a bit of sandstone in the same street."

> It means a) that like some other people, LeCarré mistook the
> grainy, yellowish oolitic limestone of Oxford buildings (as Paul
> described it) for sandstone,

...

Or conceivably that Martindale made the mistake, and Smiley
did too, or at least didn't know it was a mistake.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Mack A. Damia]

Then my original assumption is correct. It is based on class
distinction.

>> What could this mean?
>>
>> ".......there's a bit of sandstone in the same street."
>
>It means a) that like some other people, LeCarré mistook the
>grainy, yellowish oolitic limestone of Oxford buildings (as Paul
>described it) for sandstone, and b) Martindale says that St.
>Antony's College is like a redbrick university even though it's
>part of Oxford University, that is, the "sandstone" in the same
>street makes no difference.

Sounds okay, but I am not totally convinced. Le Carré was a master of
detail, and it seems out of place to suggest that he got it wrong.

>By the way, St. Antony (founded 1950) specializes in international
>relations, and Wikipedia says that since its founding it's been
>connected with British intelligence.

Cambridge Five passed secrets into the 1950s. Blunt, the Fourth Man,
was not exposed to the public until 1979.

[Janet]

In article <97jmkglkuqr0u5b0i...@4ax.com>,
drstee...@yahoo.com says...

> Oxford and Cambridge had
> >more exclusive admissions than redbrick universities at the time.
>
> Then my original assumption is correct. It is based on class
> distinction.

The distinction was academic, not financial; Oxbridge still set their
own entrance exams. In 1973, the timeframe of TTSS, over 40 percent of
Oxbridge students came from state schools.

Janet.

[Tak To]

Also:
] Texas, Massachusetts, Indiana, Wisconsin, and Georgia are
] the top producers of granite in the U.S. These granite
] quarries account for approximately 64 percent of the
] countries[1] production.

https://marble.com/articles/about-marble-and-granite-quarries-in-america-#

[1] ObAUE

[Ken Blake]

On 9/21/2021 5:18 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:

> One area in which Melbourne University was superior was the Old Boy
> network. I threw that away by moving to another city. Some of my fellow
> engineering graduates used it to move into high-paying jobs in finance.

Is finance near Melbourne?



--
Ken

[Mack A. Damia]

There are other considerations in addition to the "financial" when
considering "class". These microcosms ("academic") reflect the larger
society. Names, titles, nobility, schools attended, peer group,
clubs, memberships.....more.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 13:25:11 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>

My (self-corrected) comment was based on the New Hampshire state
nickname: The Granite State.

I don't know why I know that. I have never met anyone (that I know
of) who is from New Hampshire, never been to New Hampshire, and have
no connection with New Hampshire.

Quizzed, I couldn't name anyone famous from New Hampshire, but -
checking Google - there are several people who would fit as "famous"
who are from New Hampshire.

I know most of the state capitals, but New Hampshire's (Concord) comes
to mind only if I struggle to think about it.

I also know the New Hampshire state motto: Live Free or Die. It's on
the New Hampshire license plates, and I do see a New Hampshire license
plate once in a while in the winter.

Florida's license plates display our state nickname: (The) Sunshine
State. Given what our Governor's policies are regarding personal
safety from COVID, it should be "Live Free and Die".

[Sam Plusnet]

On 22/09/2021 19:38, Tony Cooper wrote:

> Quizzed, I couldn't name anyone famous from New Hampshire, but -
> checking Google - there are several people who would fit as "famous"
> who are from New Hampshire.
>

Is there a state which has produced _no_ famous people[1]?

[1] Define that how you will.

Any reference to Belgium would be entirely gratuitous.

[charles]

In article <StL2J.214472$64ef....@fx13.ams1>,

Hercule Poirot

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 2:38:30 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> My (self-corrected) comment was based on the New Hampshire state
> nickname: The Granite State.
>
> I don't know why I know that. I have never met anyone (that I know
> of) who is from New Hampshire, never been to New Hampshire, and have
> no connection with New Hampshire.
>
> Quizzed, I couldn't name anyone famous from New Hampshire, but -
> checking Google - there are several people who would fit as "famous"
> who are from New Hampshire.

One hopes you've heard of Daniel Webster, who may or may not have
been born there but who famously said of Dartmouth, "It's a small school,
but there are those who love it." By far the smallest of the Ivies.

> I know most of the state capitals, but New Hampshire's (Concord) comes
> to mind only if I struggle to think about it.

Odd. The "hard" ones tend to be Nebraska and Wyoming.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 13:51:44 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 2:38:30 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> My (self-corrected) comment was based on the New Hampshire state
>> nickname: The Granite State.
>>
>> I don't know why I know that. I have never met anyone (that I know
>> of) who is from New Hampshire, never been to New Hampshire, and have
>> no connection with New Hampshire.
>>
>> Quizzed, I couldn't name anyone famous from New Hampshire, but -
>> checking Google - there are several people who would fit as "famous"
>> who are from New Hampshire.
>
>One hopes you've heard of Daniel Webster, who may or may not have
>been born there but who famously said of Dartmouth, "It's a small school,
>but there are those who love it." By far the smallest of the Ivies.

I did not say that I have not heard about any famous people from New
Hampshire. I said that I couldn't name anyone famous from New
Hampshire. That Webster was born in Salisbury NH is not what comes to
mind when thinking about either Webster or New Hampshire.

>
>> I know most of the state capitals, but New Hampshire's (Concord) comes
>> to mind only if I struggle to think about it.
>
>Odd. The "hard" ones tend to be Nebraska and Wyoming.

[Neill Massello]

On 2021-09-22 at 11:25:11 MDT, "Tak To" <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:

> Also:
> ] Texas, Massachusetts, Indiana, Wisconsin, and Georgia are
> ] the top producers of granite in the U.S. These granite
> ] quarries account for approximately 64 percent of the
> ] countries[1] production.

Those who matriculate in Texas could be referred to as pink granite.

[J. J. Lodder]

Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:

> On 19/09/2021 14:53, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 4:52:40 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
> >>>

> >> "Red brick" is certainly a reference to a range of newer universities
> >> which lack the prestige of those older establishments.
> >> I don't recall coming across the "Sandstone" reference before, since it
> >> suggests that older universities are built alike - which I don't believe.
> >

> > And really, how useful is sandstone as a building material? Chicago has
> > been afraid of wood construction since 1871, and at first everything was
> > made of Indiana limestone, which is a pale yellow and seems to have
> > withstood weathering for a century and a half. (The 20th century brought
> > mostly brick construction -- including many hectares of tenements built
> > for the 1893 World's Fair to house tourists that since then have housed
> > renters.)
> >
> Not all "Sandstones" are equal. Some make a pretty good building
> material and some are too soft and are all too easily damaged by pollution.
> Our house is sandstone, but it is 'rubble built' and stuccoed so the
> stone is not exposed.
>
> > Looking for a contrast with "red brick," wouldn't "granite" have been more
> > impressive?
> Pointless to mention granite unless the relevant places were built from it.

>
> I'm currently in Cornwall where there is one heck of a lot of granite &
> many older houses are built from it. It isn't an ideal building
> material as it can't really be finely shaped. It does last very well in
> a harsh climate.

But granite -can- be shaped quite accurately,
and it has been for thousands of years.
The big slabs covering the king's chamber
in the great pyramid are carefully shaped granite.

It is just that it is a bit expensive.
If you would want some carefully shaped granite
the best you could afford would probably be a tombstone,

Jan

--
Here is a carefully shaped piece that you couldn't afford
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_red_granite_statue_of_Amenhotep_III>

[charles]

In article <be5d6fca-722a-4c96...@googlegroups.com>,

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 2:38:30 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> > My (self-corrected) comment was based on the New Hampshire state
> > nickname: The Granite State.
> >
> > I don't know why I know that. I have never met anyone (that I know
> > of) who is from New Hampshire, never been to New Hampshire, and have
> > no connection with New Hampshire.
> >
> > Quizzed, I couldn't name anyone famous from New Hampshire, but -
> > checking Google - there are several people who would fit as "famous"
> > who are from New Hampshire.

> One hopes you've heard of Daniel Webster, who may or may not have
> been born there but who famously said of Dartmouth, "It's a small school,
> but there are those who love it." By far the smallest of the Ivies.

In the UK, Dartmouth is the Royal Naval officers' training establishment.