I hate the expression "I see what you're saying"

[Gus]

How can someone literally see what another person is saying? This makes no sense and grates on my nerves when I hear someone say it... I can hear what someone is saying, or listen to what someone is saying, but I have never seen what someone is saying. (Maybe if someone has synesthesia, perhaps. But that is rare. And I do not have that, and I'm not sure even people with that condition can see words someone is saying.)

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 20 May 2015 18:14:51 -0700 (PDT), Gus <gus.o...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>How can someone literally see what another person is saying? This makes no sense and grates on my nerves when I hear someone say it... I can hear what someone is saying, or listen to what someone is saying, but I have never seen what someone is saying. (Maybe if someone has synesthesia, perhaps. But that is rare. And I do not have that, and I'm not sure even people with that condition can see words someone is saying.)

It ranks right up there with people who will not tap the Enter key at
the end of 72 characters so their text line does not stretch beyond my
screen edge.

You know what I'm sayin'?

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[Richard Tobin]

In article <ad0dd176-394a-4566...@googlegroups.com>,

Gus <gus.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
>How can someone literally see what another person is saying? This makes
>no sense

What makes you think it's meant literally?

-- Richard

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 20 May 2015 18:14:51 -0700 (PDT), Gus <gus.o...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>How can someone literally see what another person is saying? This makes no sense and grates on my nerves when I hear someone say it... I

The version I usualy hear is "I hear what you're saying...." usually
followed by "but".


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Peter Moylan]

I see what you're saying. I can't see most of what Gus was saying.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Guy Barry]

"Gus" wrote in message
news:ad0dd176-394a-4566...@googlegroups.com...

>
>How can someone literally see what another person is saying?

Are you not familiar with the concept of metaphor?

>This makes no sense and grates on my nerves when I hear someone say it...

Obviously you are.

--
Guy Barry

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Gus skrev:

> How can someone literally see what another person is saying?
> This makes no sense and grates on my nerves when I hear
> someone say it...

I see.

> I can hear what someone is saying, or listen to what someone is
> saying, but I have never seen what someone is saying. (Maybe
> if someone has synesthesia, perhaps. But that is rare. And I
> do not have that, and I'm not sure even people with that
> condition can see words someone is saying.)

Copy that.

PS. I wouldn't use "I see what you say", mostly, I suppose,
because it is not an idiom in the English I know, but I have no
problem using words in a non-literal sense.

"I see what you mean" is idiomatic for me.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On 21 May 2015 01:25:31 GMT, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:

>Gus <gus.o...@gmail.com> writes:
>>I can hear what someone is saying, or listen to what someone
>>is saying, but I have never seen what someone is saying.
>

> You can't accept polysemy? - My dictionary gives:
>
>see
>...
>2.a.) understand
>
And the OED has:

3.
a. (fig.) trans. To perceive mentally (an immaterial object, a
quality, etc.); to apprehend by thought (a truth, the answer to a
question), to recognize the force of (a demonstration). Often with
reference to metaphorical light or eyes. Also, to foresee or
forecast (an event, trend, etc.); U.S., to understand (a person).
Also, to see (something) coming: to foresee or anticipate.

As the sense of sight affords far more complete and definite
information respecting external objects than any other of the
senses, mental perceptions are in many (perh. in all) languages
referred to in visual terms, and often with little or no
consciousness of metaphor.

The earliest quotations are from the 1200s.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Charles Bishop]

In article <pjkqla19bk6qaj8uh...@4ax.com>,

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 20 May 2015 18:14:51 -0700 (PDT), Gus <gus.o...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >How can someone literally see what another person is saying? This makes no
> >sense and grates on my nerves when I hear someone say it... I
>
> The version I usualy hear is "I hear what you're saying...." usually
> followed by "but".

People disagree with you a lot, do they?

--
charles

[Peter T. Daniels]

I see what you mean.

[Rich Ulrich]

For me, too. Also, "I get what you mean" - might be a response
to something more complicated.

The variations also seem to me as if they might be highly
idiomatic, i.e., not very literal, in their interpretations.

OTOH, "I hear what you mean" sounds really wrong,
unless the topic is a demonstration of a musical lick.

"I hear your words." Context may imply,
" ... but I don't agree" or
"... but I can't understand them."

"I hear you." This might mean "Amen, brother"; or the opposite:
"You've said your piece - now, shut up and let me talk."
I think I remember reading that there is a historical
context where "I hear you" meant "I hear-and-obey."

--
Rich Ulrich

[David D S]

I sense your meaning.

--
David D S: UK and PR China. (Native BrEng speaker)
Use Reply-To header for email. This email address will be
valid for at least 2 weeks from 2015/5/22 14:29:50

[David D S]

"I hear what you are saying" is how I have experienced this saying,
which I have interpreted to be "You've said your piece - now, shut up
and let me talk.", with the addition, often, of "And by the way, you are
wrong."

--
David D S: UK and PR China. (Native BrEng speaker)
Use Reply-To header for email. This email address will be

valid for at least 2 weeks from 2015/5/22 14:31:06

[Gus]

I had a class in college years ago in Semantics, and there was a module on General Semantics. I was already fairly literal, but that made it worse.

[Gus]

When I was growing up, I never understood why people talked about the weather and mundane things like that. It seemed like a waste of time... In college, I learned about phatic language, and sometimes people talk just to let other people know they want to talk, if you want to talk... So how is the weather where you are? Been raining a lot here lately, luckily no flooding or water in the basement so far.

[Gus]

On Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 4:16:00 AM UTC-4, Lewis wrote:
> In message <6qcqlapgj12tgsek3...@4ax.com>

> I see what you are saying, and I see what Gus is saying because me
> newsreader wraps his long lines, but Gus is still entirely absolutely,
> and completely wrong.
>
> See:
>
> 2 discern or deduce mentally after reflection or from information;
> understand: I can't see any other way to treat it | [ with clause ] : I
> saw that perhaps he was right | she could see what Rhoda meant.
> * [ with clause ] ascertain after inquiring, considering, or discovering
> an outcome: I'll go along to the club and see if I can get a game.
> * [ with obj. and adverbial ] regard in a specified way: he saw himself
> as a good teacher | you and I see things differently.
> * foresee; view or predict as a possibility: I can't see him earning any
> more anywhere else.
> * used to ascertain or express comprehension, agreement, or continued
> attention, or to emphasize that an earlier prediction was correct: it
> has to be the answer, don't you see? | see, I told you I'd come.
>
> Anyone who demands that 'see' requires visual acuity needs to see their
> eye doctor for a new prescription so they can read the small letters in
> the dictionary.
>
> --
> "Yessir, Captain Tight Pants."

This word wrap problem, I don't see ;t. I generally use GG, just because it's fairly convenient... How do I fix this in GG and know when it is a problem?

[Gus]

On Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 11:39:56 AM UTC-4, Charles Bishop wrote:

To quote my niece when she was a pre-teen: You are the most annoying person in the world!

One person's annoying person, is another's keen analyst. Though I am not claiming to be a keen analyst; an Advanced Placement History teacher once told my friend that about me while I was standing next to him. It apparently went to my head; I have been a "Doubting Thomas" most of my adult life. I like to ask questions, most people are much smarter than me and I learn things by poking around... Like a co-worker once said: If I had been born in China, I'd be be in prison or killed long ago.

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 27 May 2015 03:30:42 -0700 (PDT), Gus <gus.o...@gmail.com>

The way to fix it in GG is to use it like an old typewriter, and every
60-70 characters press the <Enter> key to start a new line.

The GG editor used to do wordwrap, but they now seem to want to be
retro -- back to the 1960s.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 6:23:03 AM UTC-4, Gus wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 20, 2015 at 9:25:03 PM UTC-4, Richard Tobin wrote:
> > In article <ad0dd176-394a-4566...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Gus <gus.o...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > >How can someone literally see what another person is saying? This makes
> > >no sense
> > What makes you think it's meant literally?
>

> I had a class in college years ago in Semantics, and there was a module on General Semantics. I was already fairly literal, but that made it worse.

S. I. Hayakawa's political movement "General Semantics" has nothing to do
with philosophical / linguistic semantics and had no place in a Semantics
class.

Similarly, "Neurolinguistic Programming" has nothing to do with neurolinguistics or linguistics.

[Gus]

I guess my teacher was a rebel... GS is interesting. Not entirely practical, but interesting.

[Gus]

I am confused (again).
(It is not my intention to piss off people.)
How do I see the line word count in GG?
I don't see any word count or letter counter ruler.

I guess I can just hit Enter once in a while,
so appears more like a poem.

My ex used to do that.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 27 May 2015 08:33:03 -0700 (PDT), Gus <gus.o...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>> The way to fix it in GG is to use it like an old typewriter, and every
>> 60-70 characters press the <Enter> key to start a new line.
>>
>> The GG editor used to do wordwrap, but they now seem to want to be
>> retro -- back to the 1960s.
>>
>>
>> --
>
>
>I am confused (again).
>(It is not my intention to piss off people.)
>How do I see the line word count in GG?
>I don't see any word count or letter counter ruler.
>
>I guess I can just hit Enter once in a while,
>so appears more like a poem.
>

It's not being suggested that there is a way to see a number on your
screen that tells you how many letters there are in a line.

What you can do, as a one-time thing, is tap any letter 72 times and
see what the resulting line-length is in your font, mentally keep that
in mind as the right length, and then delete that line.

Exactly 72 characters isn't the goal. A readable line length without
scrolling across the screen is the goal.

[snide...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 8:33:05 AM UTC-7, Gus wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 6:54:12 AM UTC-4, Steve Hayes wrote:
> > On Wed, 27 May 2015 03:30:42 -0700 (PDT), Gus <gus.o...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:


> > >This word wrap problem, I don't see ;t. I generally use GG, just because it's fairly convenient... How do I fix this in GG and know when

[this line overflowed. It displays in the edit box wrapped after "because"
but missing chevrons before "it's"]

> >
> > The way to fix it in GG is to use it like an old typewriter, and every
> > 60-70 characters press the <Enter> key to start a new line.

[...]

>
> I am confused (again).
> (It is not my intention to piss off people.)
> How do I see the line word count in GG?
> I don't see any word count or letter counter ruler.
>
> I guess I can just hit Enter once in a while,
> so appears more like a poem.
>
> My ex used to do that.

That's the way, but as a hint, the text entry box tends to be about
the right size. On this instance of FF, the window is about 1/5 group list,
and the remaining 4/5 gives a bit over half (say, 2.2/5) to the text entry box
and leaves the remaining portion blank.

Note that my 3rd line is pretty close to width of my t.e.b.

When displaying received messages, several of yours have taken the full 4/5.

An alternate rule of thumb would be roughly every 10-15 words.


(I believe Chrome does block some ads out of the box, but I'd have to check
at home to see if I've got any added ad-blockers.)

/dps



/dps

[Peter Moylan]

On 28/05/15 01:33, Gus wrote:
> I guess I can just hit Enter once in a while,
> so appears more like a poem.
>
> My ex used to do that.

If you do that we'll start confounding you with Jan Lodder.

Sometimes, when starting to write a new computer program, I start by
typing the following two lines

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012

to work out how long a 72-character line is, and then I follow up with a
line like

(***********************************************************************)

that I can copy-and-paste anywhere in the file, to remind me how wide my
comment blocks should be for readability and consistency. At that stage
I delete the "counter" lines, because I now have a visual indication of
how I want my line limits set.

(Actually, for programming I usually choose an 80-character limit, but I
wouldn't do that in Usenet.)

It has just occurred to me that I could make my signature exactly the
right width, because when posting to Usenet the signature is always
directly below the line I'm currently typing. I don't need to do that
because my newsreader wraps automatically, but I might try that trick if
I had to use Google Groups.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <e9fd6be8-e887-4b5e...@googlegroups.com>,
Gus <gus.o...@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip-GG line lengths and how to achieve a proper length]

>
> I am confused (again).
> (It is not my intention to piss off people.)
> How do I see the line word count in GG?
> I don't see any word count or letter counter ruler.

If you look at the posts above yours, written with real newsreaders, or
even my line length, you'll get an idea of how long a line should be to
be considered "proper". Just use those lines as an approximation and
make yours a little shorter to be sure.

>
> I guess I can just hit Enter once in a while,
> so appears more like a poem.
>
> My ex used to do that.

I didn't know you had an ex.

--
charles

[Snidely]

On Wednesday or thereabouts, Charles Bishop asked ...

You should have from TOG.

/dps "yes, with the yoootewbs"

--
"I am not given to exaggeration, and when I say a thing I mean it"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain

[Richard Tobin]

In article <mk6192$u71$1...@dont-email.me>,

Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>(Actually, for programming I usually choose an 80-character limit,

Do you think that's still necessary? I agree that most lines should
be short for readability, but I find that it's better to have the
occasional line of 100 characters rather than to wrap it, so as to
preserve the vertical consistency.

-- Richard

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Richard Tobin skrev:

>>(Actually, for programming I usually choose an 80-character limit,

> Do you think that's still necessary? I agree that most lines should
> be short for readability, but I find that it's better to have the
> occasional line of 100 characters rather than to wrap it, so as to
> preserve the vertical consistency.

I don't wrap my programming text at all. I usually try to
organise the code so the lines won't be too long, but I don't
want any automatic function to intervene.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Steve Hayes]

Vertical consistency?

[Richard Tobin]

In article <a7ldmati3mutv0aqm...@4ax.com>,

Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>Do you think that's still necessary? I agree that most lines should
>>be short for readability, but I find that it's better to have the
>>occasional line of 100 characters rather than to wrap it, so as to
>>preserve the vertical consistency.

>Vertical consistency?

I mean that a logical block should consist of a sequence of statements
on successive lines, with gaps indicating conceptual boundaries.
Continuation lines mess that up.

Also, on a modern screen vertical space is generally at more of a
premium than horizontal - I want to see as much context around the
code I'm looking at as possible.

-- Richard

[Peter Moylan]

Obviously personal taste comes into it, so there's no universal rule,
but for myself I hate having to scroll horizontally to read something,
or even to move my eyes too far to the right. (And readability is very
important to me. If it's hard to read you don't notice the errors.)

I do allow myself to go a dozen or so lines beyond my self-imposed limit
if that's all that is needed, because that doesn't hurt the neatness too
much. When I have to go beyond that, I put a lot of white space at the
beginning of the continuation line(s), to make it clear that they are
continuations.

Here's a fragment of my code that illustrates this:

ELSIF LocateFile (sess^.domain, sess^.URL, filename,
sess^.lastmodified, size, CGI, SHTML) THEN
dontsend := FALSE;
IF NOT CGI AND NOT SHTML AND (sess^.ifmodifiedsince[0] <> Nul) THEN
dontsend := CompareDateStrings (sess^.lastmodified,
sess^.ifmodifiedsince) <= 0;
END (*IF*);

Notice how far right I've pushed the continuation lines. This is
deliberate. I try to ensure that the rightmost character on a
continuation line is further right than the rightmost character of the
preceding line.

[Gus]

Why is GG so retarded? Why do the Google Overlords inflict such pain?
I bought a Chromebook recently and really like it, but you can't print from it.

Did someone in a meeting at Google say "people don't need to print anymore,
everything is in the Cloud!" And everyone else in the meeting agreed, and then someone said: Lets still let them print, but make it cumbersome and make them
have access to a PC that can print!" And everyone agreed and management signed off on this a good solution?

[Gus]

Thanks! That is a good idea.
123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012

[Gus]

A long sordid story... but to paraphrase Tolstoi: happy family families are all happy in the same way, but unhappy family families have more interesting stories... Like while cleaning the house recently, I found 6 long stem matches in the basement where the teenage kids used to play videos games. The matches were all black at the ends and had been lit. What were they doing down there, trying to burn the house down? What is wrong with kids these days; they all seem to be spoiled brats and don't respect anyone or anything... Is this just a thing in the US or world wide thing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVv94T5LF0c

[Charles Bishop]

In article <mn.e0397df5fd32542b.127094@snitoo>,

Snidely <snide...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday or thereabouts, Charles Bishop asked ...
> > In article <e9fd6be8-e887-4b5e...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Gus <gus.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > [snip-GG line lengths and how to achieve a proper length]
> >>
> >> I am confused (again).
> >> (It is not my intention to piss off people.)
> >> How do I see the line word count in GG?
> >> I don't see any word count or letter counter ruler.
> >
> > If you look at the posts above yours, written with real newsreaders, or
> > even my line length, you'll get an idea of how long a line should be to
> > be considered "proper". Just use those lines as an approximation and
> > make yours a little shorter to be sure.
> >>
> >> I guess I can just hit Enter once in a while,
> >> so appears more like a poem.
> >>
> >> My ex used to do that.
> >
> > I didn't know you had an ex.
>
> You should have from TOG.

Or anywhere, I expect.
Should I have use a smiley?

Charles

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Peter Moylan skrev:

>>> (Actually, for programming I usually choose an 80-character limit,

>> Do you think that's still necessary? I agree that most lines should
>> be short for readability, but I find that it's better to have the
>> occasional line of 100 characters rather than to wrap it, so as to
>> preserve the vertical consistency.

> Obviously personal taste comes into it, so there's no universal rule,
> but for myself I hate having to scroll horizontally to read something,
> or even to move my eyes too far to the right. (And readability is very
> important to me. If it's hard to read you don't notice the errors.)

I agree with this.
[I think you mean "characters" in the next paragraph, not
"lines"]

> I do allow myself to go a dozen or so lines beyond my
> self-imposed limit if that's all that is needed, because that
> doesn't hurt the neatness too much. When I have to go beyond
> that, I put a lot of white space at the beginning of the
> continuation line(s), to make it clear that they are
> continuations.

I write code with one staement on each line and no line longer
than my preferred length except if the code forces it. If I for
example have a print statement with a very long text, I break it
up as the language allows:

PHP echo " blablabla"
." blablabla"
." blablabla"
." blablabla";

It's very seldom that I can't manage to keep the lines within my
limit.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Steve Hayes]

OK, I don't have a hassle with program lines being long, because one
reads them differently, and when you're done only the computer is
going to read them anyway.

But when reading text long lines ARE difficult to read, and if the
content really interests me, I wil copy it and repost it, which makes
it more readable, otherwise I just ignore the stuff with long lines.

[Will Parsons]

On Thursday, 28 May 2015 2:29 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Thu, 28 May 2015 10:14:44 +0000 (UTC), ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
> (Richard Tobin) wrote:
>
>>In article <a7ldmati3mutv0aqm...@4ax.com>,
>>Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>Do you think that's still necessary? I agree that most lines should
>>>>be short for readability, but I find that it's better to have the
>>>>occasional line of 100 characters rather than to wrap it, so as to
>>>>preserve the vertical consistency.
>>
>>>Vertical consistency?
>>
>>I mean that a logical block should consist of a sequence of statements
>>on successive lines, with gaps indicating conceptual boundaries.
>>Continuation lines mess that up.
>>
>>Also, on a modern screen vertical space is generally at more of a
>>premium than horizontal - I want to see as much context around the
>>code I'm looking at as possible.

When you're working in a non-windowing environment where the screen
dimensions are 80x25 characters, making the viewable text width wider
is not an option.

> OK, I don't have a hassle with program lines being long, because one
> reads them differently, and when you're done only the computer is
> going to read them anyway.

I think I probably missed much of the lead-up to this, but what? -
"only the computer is going to read them"? Usually software I've
written gets read by more people than me. I've made it a personal
standard (and a coding standard where possible) to require lines of
code to be no longer than 80 characters. (This becomes even more
desirable when one is not working in a windowing environment, and only
80 characters fit across the screen.)

--
Will

[Richard Tobin]

In article <slrnmmeoia...@anukis.local>,

Will Parsons <gyli...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>Also, on a modern screen vertical space is generally at more of a
>>>premium than horizontal - I want to see as much context around the
>>>code I'm looking at as possible.

>When you're working in a non-windowing environment where the screen
>dimensions are 80x25 characters, making the viewable text width wider
>is not an option.

I recommend not doing this.

-- Richard

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Steve Hayes skrev:

> OK, I don't have a hassle with program lines being long,
> because one reads them differently, and when you're done only
> the computer is going to read them anyway.

That is not my experience. I mosrly write small programs for
myself, but I finished my bachelor's degree in a company that
gave me a specific task, and that involved reading quite a lot of
code that others had written.

I once was misunderstood when I wrote that the most common remark
among programmers is:

Now it is perfect!

He thought that I evaluated my own skills that way. What I meant
was, that five minutes later the programmer would find a flaw,
fix it and then again exclaim:

Now it is perfect!

and so on ad inifinitum.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Will Parsons]

Doing what?

--
Will

[Richard Tobin]

In article <slrnmmeube...@anukis.local>,

Will Parsons <gyli...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>>Also, on a modern screen vertical space is generally at more of a
>>>>>premium than horizontal - I want to see as much context around the
>>>>>code I'm looking at as possible.

>>>When you're working in a non-windowing environment where the screen
>>>dimensions are 80x25 characters, making the viewable text width wider
>>>is not an option.

>> I recommend not doing this.

>Doing what?

Working in a non-windowing environment where the screen dimensions are
80x25 characters.

-- Richard

[Will Parsons]

It's not always a choice.

--
Will

[Richard Tobin]

In article <slrnmmf8r7...@anukis.local>,

Will Parsons <gyli...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>Also, on a modern screen vertical space is generally at more of a
>>>>>>>premium than horizontal - I want to see as much context around the
>>>>>>>code I'm looking at as possible.

>>>>>When you're working in a non-windowing environment where the screen
>>>>>dimensions are 80x25 characters, making the viewable text width wider
>>>>>is not an option.

>>>> I recommend not doing this.

>>>Doing what?

>> Working in a non-windowing environment where the screen dimensions are
>> 80x25 characters.

>It's not always a choice.

Where are you forced to program in such an environment?

-- Richard

[Jeff Urs]

On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 11:33:05 AM UTC-4, Gus wrote:
> I am confused (again).
> (It is not my intention to piss off people.)
> How do I see the line word count in GG?
> I don't see any word count or letter counter ruler.

12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345
Well, until you had a feel for how long 60-70 characters is, you
could create your own scale. You could then delete the scale once
you'd finished composing your post. Or not.

--
Jeff

[David Kleinecke]

Google Groups is quite sane and consistent but too many people are using
archaic newsreaders that do not default to word wrap. There seems to be
a cure with some kind of an extra titbit that Google could add to its
message headers. But I fear Google is too busy to notice that and -
something you can really nailed Google about - there is no way to ask
them to fix it.

[Peter Moylan]

Sometimes there is no choice. It's only a couple of years since I was
working on a computer whose screen was 40 characters wide. That's not
unusual when you're developing embedded applications, and embedded
applications account for a lot -- possibly even a majority -- of
programming jobs, at least in engineering.

In any case, I use that 80-character limit even in a windowed
environment, because computer code has to be readable, and very long
lines are not readable unless you happen to be Mr Tough Guy 666, or
whatever he calls himself, and can switch your eyes unerringly to the
next line without skipping a line, even when sitting naked in a freezer.

[Peter Moylan]

On 29/05/15 14:26, Lewis wrote:
> In message <mk8cjq$m99$1...@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk>

> On the console for my servers.

On the output display of an intelligent relay.

[Peter Moylan]

On 28/05/15 23:53, Gus wrote:

> A long sordid story... but to paraphrase Tolstoi: happy family
> families are all happy in the same way, but unhappy family families
> have more interesting stories... Like while cleaning the house
> recently, I found 6 long stem matches in the basement where the
> teenage kids used to play videos games. The matches were all black
> at the ends and had been lit. What were they doing down there,
> trying to burn the house down? What is wrong with kids these days;
> they all seem to be spoiled brats and don't respect anyone or
> anything... Is this just a thing in the US or world wide thing?

I can remember crawling behind the couch in the lounge room in order to
play with matches where nobody could see me. My childhood wasn't in
"these days", and I wasn't a spoiled brat. At a later age I was making
gunpowder in the back yard, and jumping off roofs, and scaring the hell
out of motorists as I rounded a corner on my billycart.

Children explore and do risky things and do silly things. It's part of
growing up.

Now my children have grown up (and they survived!), but I have a couple
of kittens. They wrestle, they try to bite each other on the jugular,
they try to claw each other's eyes out. They leave claw-marks in the
furniture. I've just had to replace the expensive vase that lay smashed
on the floor. It's all part of child-rearing.

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 28 May 2015 19:46:33 -0700 (PDT), David Kleinecke
<dklei...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Google Groups is quite sane and consistent but too many people are using
>archaic newsreaders that do not default to word wrap. There seems to be
>a cure with some kind of an extra titbit that Google could add to its
>message headers. But I fear Google is too busy to notice that and -
>something you can really nailed Google about - there is no way to ask
>them to fix it.

The GoogleGroups editor (or gating software) used to be be compliant
with Usnet standards, but is no longer compliant. It is up/down to
Google to fix their broken software.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

David Kleinecke skrev:

> Google Groups is quite sane and consistent but too many people are using
> archaic newsreaders that do not default to word wrap. There seems to be
> a cure with some kind of an extra titbit that Google could add to its
> message headers.

It's not a titbit. It's a necessary element of a correct header.

> But I fear Google is too busy to notice that and -
> something you can really nailed Google about - there is no way to ask
> them to fix it.

I once spent half an hour trying to find some way to contact
Google. I failed.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Steve Hayes skrev:

> The GoogleGroups editor (or gating software) used to be be compliant
> with Usnet standards, but is no longer compliant.

True. The discrepancy occured after they went to flower format
without declaring it in the headers.

PS. I meant "flowed format", but I left this cute error
uncorrected.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Peter Moylan skrev:

> In any case, I use that 80-character limit even in a windowed
> environment, because computer code has to be readable, and very long
> lines are not readable unless you happen to be Mr Tough Guy 666, or
> whatever he calls himself, and can switch your eyes unerringly to the
> next line without skipping a line, even when sitting naked in a freezer.

ROTFL :-)

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Jeff Urs skrev:

> 12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345
> Well, until you had a feel for how long 60-70 characters is, you
> could create your own scale. You could then delete the scale once
> you'd finished composing your post. Or not.

I find it easier to find some icon or text on one of the
program's toolbars to use as a marker.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Snidely]

On Friday, Bertel Lund Hansen pointed out that ...
> David Kleinecke skrev:

>> But I fear Google is too busy to notice that and -
>> something you can really nailed Google about - there is no way to ask
>> them to fix it.
>
> I once spent half an hour trying to find some way to contact
> Google. I failed.

Post it on Facebook.

/dps

--
"That's a good sort of hectic, innit?"

" Very much so, and I'd recommend the haggis wontons."
-njm

[Richard Tobin]

In article <mk8tvq$bkc$1...@dont-email.me>,

Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>Sometimes there is no choice. It's only a couple of years since I was
>working on a computer whose screen was 40 characters wide. That's not
>unusual when you're developing embedded applications, and embedded
>applications account for a lot -- possibly even a majority -- of
>programming jobs, at least in engineering.

But why do you write the code on those devices? Don't you have
emulators and cross compilers? At the very least you could do the
editing elsewhere.

In fact, I'm surprised that the devices even have editors and
compilers that run on them!

-- Richard

[Snidely]

Richard Tobin is guilty of <mk96or$12vn$1...@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk> as of
5/29/2015 1:07:55 AM

Some of them are better processors than has a Raspberry Pi.

/dps

--
The presence of this syntax results from the fact that SQLite is really
a Tcl extension that has escaped into the wild.
<http://www.sqlite.org/lang_expr.html>

[Peter Moylan]

On 29/05/15 12:46, David Kleinecke wrote:

> Google Groups is quite sane and consistent but too many people are using
> archaic newsreaders that do not default to word wrap. There seems to be
> a cure with some kind of an extra titbit that Google could add to its
> message headers. But I fear Google is too busy to notice that and -
> something you can really nailed Google about - there is no way to ask
> them to fix it.

I once ran into that problem with Yahoo. Someone else had hijacked our
mail account (and changed the password and redirected the mail), and I
discovered that there was absolutely no way to contact any support person.

Today I realised that there could be two ways to get a bug report to Google:
(a) Create a Google Group called "Please fix the Google Groups bug";
(b) Create a Facebook account with the same name.

To get their attention, you'd have to recruit a sufficient number of
people. It might help to have a FAQ where you say "The reason for
creating this group is that there's no way to submit bug reports to Google".

[Peter Moylan]

Some of them have both Java and C compilers. Modern ARM processors are
so powerful they leave you wondering how we ever survived with the 8051
and its like.

It's true that cross compilers are more convenient, most of the time,
and in fact the 40-character limit has never affected my code. In that
application the problem tends to be making debug messages readable,
without having access to the traditional "Press any other key to continue".

The cross-compilers often work in an 80x25 text screen.

[Peter Moylan]

My .sig is always visible while I'm typing (in mail or in a newsgroup),
so if I had the need for a marker I'd just modify my signature to do the
job.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Snidely skrev:

>> I once spent half an hour trying to find some way to contact
>> Google. I failed.

> Post it on Facebook.

I'm not on Facebook and never will be.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[snide...@gmail.com]

By the way, I've discovered my home nuzrieder (MesNews, for those who've
lost their score card) uses format=flowed. When I draft a reply there,
I don't hit <cr> ('Enter', 'Return', etc) until a paragraph boundary.

When I view my replies from there while there, they fit the window,
so MN is doing the flow there.

Note: Paragraph 1 applies /most/ of the time. But because I provide
explict EOLs when using GG, I sometimes find myself doing it at home, too.

Here's a sample:
<URL:https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/EnhroVLyzek/2hRIj7_j634J>

Both the normal GG presentation and the GG-show-original presentation
seem to have explicit EOLs, while the format=flowed is set.
I don't remember if I was mashing the button when writing that post.

Another sample:
<URL:https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/0lmX2HfqDYA/1Bbb_rr_GvwJ>
I'm a little more confident I was not manually wrapping that one.

FWIW. YMMV. Void Where Prohibited By Law. Some Settling May Have Occurred.

/dps

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

snide...@gmail.com skrev:

> By the way, I've discovered my home nuzrieder (MesNews, for
> those who've lost their score card) uses format=flowed. When
> I draft a reply there, I don't hit <cr> ('Enter', 'Return',
> etc) until a paragraph boundary.

My newsreader (Dialog) has no flow format, and I would diable it
if it had. It formats my messages and breaks the lines at the
limit I have chosen (65). And a nice feature: It reformats a
selected block the same way if I press Ctrl-R.

> When I view my replies from there while there, they fit the
> window, so MN is doing the flow there.

Dialog also flows long lines automatically. I can adjust the
display window to set the desired width.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[snide...@gmail.com]

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 5:38:18 AM UTC-7, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Snidely skrev:
>
> >> I once spent half an hour trying to find some way to contact
> >> Google. I failed.
>
> > Post it on Facebook.
>
> I'm not on Facebook and never will be.
>

[shrug]

/dps

[Jerry Friedman]

On 5/28/15 2:19 PM, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Steve Hayes skrev:
>

>> OK, I don't have a hassle with program lines being long,
>> because one reads them differently, and when you're done only
>> the computer is going to read them anyway.
>
> That is not my experience. I mosrly write small programs for
> myself, but I finished my bachelor's degree in a company that
> gave me a specific task, and that involved reading quite a lot of
> code that others had written.
>
> I once was misunderstood when I wrote that the most common remark
> among programmers is:
>
> Now it is perfect!
>
> He thought that I evaluated my own skills that way. What I meant
> was, that five minutes later the programmer would find a flaw,
> fix it and then again exclaim:
>
> Now it is perfect!
>
> and so on ad inifinitum.

In my programming days, I eventually switched from "Now it's perfect!"
to "I wonder what the problem will be this time."

--
Jerry Friedman

[occam]

On 21/05/2015 3:14 AM, Gus wrote:
> How can someone literally see what another person is saying? This makes no sense and grates on my nerves when I hear someone say it... I can hear what someone is saying, or listen to what someone is saying, but I have never seen what someone is saying. (Maybe if someone has synesthesia, perhaps. But that is rare. And I do not have that, and I'm not sure even people with that condition can see words someone is saying.)
>

Yet you have no problem with "grates on my nerves". How does an
expression literally do that for you?

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Lewis skrev:

>> Children explore and do risky things and do silly things. It's part of
>> growing up.

> Used to be. Not so much any more.

A couple of days ago I heard a remark on tv that made me think:

The kids that grow up now, are the first ones who have
seen everything before they experience it themselves.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Gus]

I don't know. It just does. A pet peeve I guess... Another expression I detest.

[christia...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 11:14:54 AM UTC+10, Gus wrote:
> How can someone literally see what another person is saying? This makes no sense and grates on my nerves when I hear someone say it... I can hear what someone is saying, or listen to what someone is saying, but I have never seen what someone is saying. (Maybe if someone has synesthesia, perhaps. But that is rare. And I do not have that, and I'm not sure even people with that condition can see words someone is saying.)

Actually no - its really simple. Visual people "see" and "visualise" what people say. Synaesthesia is different. It won't make sense to you if you are an auditory learner/thinker. I see/visualise things and literally if I cannot see it, I will say, I don't see how... etc etc

Hope that helps.

[Peter Young]

ObAUE: A recent Times crossword clue was "I see what you're saying", 3
plus 6 letters. A virtual sheep for the first person to solve it.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Ir)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

[Harvey]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 15:42:28 GMT, Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk>
wrote:

> On 14 Dec 2016 christia...@gmail.com wrote:


> > On Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 11:14:54 AM UTC+10, Gus wrote:
> >> How can someone literally see what another person is saying?
This
> >> makes no sense and grates on my nerves when I hear someone say
it...
> >> I can hear what someone is saying, or listen to what someone is
> >> saying, but I have never seen what someone is saying. (Maybe if
> >> someone has synesthesia, perhaps. But that is rare. And I do
not
> >> have that, and I'm not sure even people with that condition can
see
> >> words someone is saying.)


> > Actually no - its really simple. Visual people "see" and
"visualise"
> > what people say. Synaesthesia is different. It won't make sense
to you
> > if you are an auditory learner/thinker. I see/visualise things and
> > literally if I cannot see it, I will say, I don't see how... etc
etc


> ObAUE: A recent Times crossword clue was "I see what you're
saying", 3
> plus 6 letters. A virtual sheep for the first person to solve it.

Lip reader.

--
Cheers, Harvey
CanE (30 years) & BrE (34 years), indiscriminately mixed

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 06:52:41 -0800 (PST), christia...@gmail.com
wrote:

The OED describes that figurative, that is, non-literal, use of "see":

(figurative) transferred use

To perceive mentally (an immaterial object, a quality, etc.);

to apprehend by thought (a truth, the answer to a question),

to recognize the force of (a demonstration).

Often with reference to metaphorical light or eyes. Also, to foresee
or forecast (an event, trend, etc.); U.S., to understand (a person).
Also, to see (something) coming: to foresee or anticipate.

As the sense of sight affords far more complete and definite
information respecting external objects than any other of the
senses, mental perceptions are in many (perh. in all) languages
referred to in visual terms, and often with little or no
consciousness of metaphor.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter Young]

Your Cotswold Lion is attached, in the form of electrons.

[HVS]

On 14 Dec 2016, Peter Young wrote

> On 14 Dec 2016 Harvey <use...@whhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 15:42:28 GMT, Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk>
>> wrote:

-snip-

>>> ObAUE: A recent Times crossword clue was "I see what you're saying", 3
>>> plus 6 letters. A virtual sheep for the first person to solve it.
>
>> Lip reader.
>
> Your Cotswold Lion is attached, in the form of electrons.

Maaaaaaa-vellous.

--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30yrs) and BrEng (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed

[Dingbat]

On Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 6:44:54 AM UTC+5:30, Gus wrote:
> How can someone literally see what another person is saying?

It's a useful expression when the other is saying, 'Asshole!'

[Lewis]

In message <ad0dd176-394a-4566...@googlegroups.com>

Gus <gus.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How can someone literally see what another person is saying?

Languages are not literal.

However, "see" does not exclusively mean "perceive something with your
eyes." See also means to understand, to deduce, to figure out, to
regard, and many other things as well.

> This makes no sense

It makes perfect sense.

> and grates on my nerves when I hear someone say it...

That's a shame. Are you a native speaker? Even if you are, your
understanding of this phrase is wrong.

> I can hear what someone is saying, or listen to what someone is
> saying, but I have never seen what someone is saying. (Maybe if
> someone has synesthesia, perhaps. But that is rare. And I do not
> have that, and I'm not sure even people with that condition can see
> words someone is saying.)

Words, especially the common ones, have many meanings.

Here's another one to bother you, "I'll see you out" does not mean "I
will watch you leave with my eyes" it means "I will accompany you to the
exit" so in this case, "see" means "to walk (with)".

Oh noes! How can you walk with your eyes!


--
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;

[Snidely]

Lewis asserted that:

> Gus <gus.o...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> and grates on my nerves when I hear someone say it...
>
> That's a shame. Are you a native speaker? Even if you are, your
> understanding of this phrase is wrong.

You'e forgotten Gus, I take it, in the 18-20 months since this thread
's OP was posted.

But for this one, he didn't include a YewTuub link.