Pronunciation of "lingerie"
Franz Delahan
"lingerie" seems most often to be pronounced something like "lahn zhuh RAY."
This does not even come close to the French pronunciation of the word. Nor
does it make sense as an English pronunciation. Does anyone know where this
bizarre pronunciation comes from? Do English-speaking people other than
Americans pronounce it this way? By the way, most American English
dictionaries give this as the standard pronunciation.
Many other French words, of course, are "mispronounced" in English.
Usually the logic of the pronunciation is evident, though. Often it
results from failing to recognize an exception to a general rule. For
example, the "s" in "fleur-de-lis" is seldom pronounced in English,
presumably because final consonants are usually silent in French.
More understandable is the failure to recognize an exception to the
exception. The "c" in "vin blanc" is often pronounced in English,
probably because "blanc" is believed to be an exception to the general
rule, suggested by the mnemonic "CaReFuL." A television commercial
shown here pronounces "vin blanc" that way in spite of taking pains to
nasalize both vowels correctly. But this does not explain "lahn zhuh
RAY."
--
Franz Delahan, Math. Dept., University of California at Irvine
Ha Li
>"lingerie" seems most often to be pronounced something like "lahn zhuh RAY."
>This does not even come close to the French pronunciation of the word.
What is the French pronunciation?
-Dave
|S| Tobias Koehler
Ohh, this is difficult to explain to english-speaking bioforms ....
I 'll try it.
L - line `l' in let
IN - nasal sound, hold your nose closed and say the `ir' of birth
through it
G - like `j' in just, but without the d
E - like `e' in get
R - usual french `r', let your uvula vibrate
IE - like `e' in be, stressed
-- tobias --
|S| Tobias Koehler
> More understandable is the failure to recognize an exception to the
> exception. The "c" in "vin blanc" is often pronounced in English,
> probably because "blanc" is believed to be an exception to the general
> rule, suggested by the mnemonic "CaReFuL." A television commercial
> shown here pronounces "vin blanc" that way in spite of taking pains to
> nasalize both vowels correctly.
The C in <blanc> is NOT pronounced.
-- tbk --
Franz Delahan
I think that if you reread the paragraph that you quoted, you will see
that it implies that the "c" in "blanc" is not pronounced in French.
I was trying to show that there is a "logic" behind the common
mispronunciation of this word in English. I was contrasting this with
the usual pronunciation of "lingerie" in American English, in which,
for example, the last syllable is made to rhyme with "say" rather than
"see." In this case, I do not see a "logic," and was wondering
about the origin of such a mispronunciation.
Alex Lange
The first "e" in "lingerie" would be almost imperceptibly voiced,
so that the French pronunciation might sound more like "linzh reee".
But, I think that the Fr. "rie" is twisted to American "ray" because
of the predominance of borrowings from the French that actually do end
with the "ray" sound: eg. "liberte', egalite', fraternite', lingere'". (Or
would that be "lingere'e" in Franglais?) In confusion, the poor Americans
have "flattened" the pronunciation of all the borrowings. An American
English dictionary at hand lists both the "ray" and the "ree"
forms, albeit the "ray" form first. The mispronunication may be a
manifestation of "hypercorrectness" by Americans who want to sound literate.
It is not on a par, in my opinion, with "voila" pronounced like "wahla,"
as many Americans do.
My apologies to Evan Hirshenbaum for not using his ASCII IPA in this post
or for perhaps misspelling his name from memory.
Alex Lange
Roger Lustig
Maybe the announcer was Provencal? 8-)
(In which the word, if I'm not too mistaken, is pronounced "blenk.")
Roger
Paul Garside
>I have lived in many parts of the United States and everywhere the word
>"lingerie" seems most often to be pronounced something like "lahn zhuh RAY."
The final "RAY" is not the only french sound I have noticed americans have
trouble with - the one which I notice most frequently is the final -EUSE, as
in chartreuse, coiffeuse, which come over as "shar-troos" and "cwaff-oos".
A very long "A" in spanish words seems to be a problem, too, as in
"ManAAgua", "NicarAAgua" etc.
Just to even things up, the current UK english abuse of french concerns "en
suite" - used in the context of a bedroom being joined to ("en suite" with) a
bathroom, as in "en suite master bedroom"; from this an "en suite" means a
bathroom which is so attached. I am just waiting to hear the phrase "a
separate en suite"!
Paul.
Bonita Kale
If you pronounce it anything like the French pronounce it, the sales clerk
thinks you're ignorant. If you pronounce it as she does, you -sound-
ignorant. My solution is to ask for the underwear department.
Here's one--"gyro". That's a sort-of-Greek sandwich of lamb/beef mix on
pita bread. If you ask for it in anything like the Greek way (which I
believe is like "hero" with an "h" like the one at the start of
"Hanukkah"), they think you mean a hero--a submarine sandwich. (To make it
worse, our local place sells both.) I have given up and just say "gyro"
like the first part of "gyroscope", as does everyone else around Cleveland.
Bonita Kale
Franz Delahan
> ...
>Here's one--"gyro". That's a sort-of-Greek sandwich of lamb/beef mix on
>pita bread. If you ask for it in anything like the Greek way (which I
>believe is like "hero" with an "h" like the one at the start of
>"Hanukkah"), they think you mean a hero--a submarine sandwich. (To make it
>worse, our local place sells both.) I have given up and just say "gyro"
>like the first part of "gyroscope", as does everyone else around Cleveland.
>
>
>Bonita Kale
The Greek "g" in "gyro" is pronounced very much like the English "y"
in "year." So "gyro" should sound much like "YEAR oh." You are
probably thinking of the sound of gamma when it appears before a back
vowel. Your description of that sound would not be far off, if you
added that it should also be voiced.
randy j futor
>
> I was taught that *no syllables are stressed in French.
Look up 'oxytone'. Disregard the definition about it being a Greek word.
Elrond used it more than once in his text on Romance linguistics to
describe Modern French; I would bet others have as well.
__
\/ -+- randy -+- all generalizations are flawed -+- fu...@llnl.gov
THOMAS L CLARK
Marie Coffin
Delahan) writes:
>
> The Greek "g" in "gyro" is pronounced very much like the English "y"
> in "year." So "gyro" should sound much like "YEAR oh." You are
> probably thinking of the sound of gamma when it appears before a back
> vowel. Your description of that sound would not be far off, if you
> added that it should also be voiced.
> --
> Franz Delahan, Math. Dept., University of California at Irvine
This is what I learned also. My authority is the greek gentleman who
first talked me into eating a gyro. However, everyone else around here
says "hero", so I just get weird looks if I try to pronounce it correctly.
Marie Coffin
Roger Lustig
>In article <2BB783D...@news.service.uci.edu> fdel...@math.uci.edu (Franz Delahan) writes:
>>I have lived in many parts of the United States and everywhere the word
>>"lingerie" seems most often to be pronounced something like "lahn zhuh RAY."
>The final "RAY" is not the only french sound I have noticed americans have
>trouble with - the one which I notice most frequently is the final -EUSE, as
>in chartreuse, coiffeuse, which come over as "shar-troos" and "cwaff-oos".
Well, that's a bit different; we don't *have* the -euse sound in English,
really. On the other hand, we have the long ee at the end of lingerie.
(In Guys and Dolls, one of the leads, a nightclub singer, refers to
herself as a "shantoozie.")
>A very long "A" in spanish words seems to be a problem, too, as in
>"ManAAgua", "NicarAAgua" etc.
Again, a vowel-consonant pattern we don't have. German is similarly
handicapped in dealing with Latin names.
Roger
Freb Hunt
There's also the infamous American stuffed pizza known as the Cal-Zone.
Whenever I ask for a calzone (three syllables), I always get asked if I
want a Cal-Zone. Oh well, I suppose this bothers me less than hearing
American journalists say nitch ("niche") and N Rowt ("en route").
But lingerie, I must admit, bothers me less. IMO its English form has a
different meaning (the French word, I assume, comes from "linge" meaning
laundry). I feel the English pronunciation is close enough to the French,
if you ignore the wrong ending.
Finally, Bonita's first comment reminds me of when I went to a cosmetic
counter and asked for a Lancome product called Soins Progressif des Mains.
She had no idea what I was talking about. I just pointed to the hand cream
and smiled.
Freb Hunt (a trilingual Canadian living in the linguistically impoverished
US)
fh...@med.unc.edu
Freb Hunt
Well, I looked up "oxytone" in Websters (second-rate dictionary that it is)
and couldn't find it. If you mean to agree that French has no stressed
syllables, I must disagree, at least as far as French-Canadian
pronunciation goes.
There might not be as clear a stress as in English, but it is certainly
noticeable. Frequently the stress is on the last syllable, as with a
French-Canadian pronunciation of "lingerie."
Perhaps Peter was taught the British academic way of pronouncing French. I
have certainly heard it before, and it bears little resemblance to the
living language used in Quebec and other parts of Canada.
Freb Hunt
fh...@med.unc.edu
Dan Day
>In article <2BB9C63...@news.service.uci.edu>, fdel...@math.uci.edu (Franz
>Delahan) writes:
>>
>> So "gyro" should sound much like "YEAR oh."
>
>first talked me into eating a gyro.
I agree. My authority is the Jack in the Box restaurant commercial,
which starts with people badly mangling the pronunciation of
J-in-the-B's new food offering ("guy-ro", "jeer-oh", "jie-ro").
The kind Mister Voiceover then gently informs them that it's
pronounced YEAR-oh.
Dan Day
>bathroom which is so attached. I am just waiting to hear the phrase "a
>separate en suite"!
"Would you like that with au jus sauce?"
Evan Kirshenbaum
>In article <futor-310...@chinacat.llnl.gov>, fu...@llnl.gov (randy j
>futor) wrote:
>>
>> p...@essence.demon.co.uk ("Peter R. Humphrey") wrote:
>> >
>> > I was taught that *no syllables are stressed in French.
>>
>> Look up 'oxytone'. Disregard the definition about it being a Greek word.
>>
>> Elrond used it more than once in his text on Romance linguistics to
>> describe Modern French; I would bet others have as well.
>> __
>> \/ -+- randy -+- all generalizations are flawed -+- fu...@llnl.gov
>
>Well, I looked up "oxytone" in Websters (second-rate dictionary that it is)
>and couldn't find it. If you mean to agree that French has no stressed
>syllables, I must disagree, at least as far as French-Canadian
>pronunciation goes.
I think you need a new Webster's. M/W NCD says:
oxytone \'Ak si ,ton\ adj [F _oxyton_, fr. Gk _oxytonos, fr. _oxys_
sharp, acute in pitch + _tonos_ tone]
1 _of a Greek word_: having an acute accent on the last
syllable
2: having heavy stress on the last syllable
-- oxytone n
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories | Never ascribe to malice that which
3500 Deer Creek Road, Building 26U | can adequately be explained by
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | stupidity.
|
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |
(415)857-7572
Roger Lustig
>(Bonita Kale) wrote:
>> If you pronounce it anything like the French pronounce it, the sales clerk
>> thinks you're ignorant. If you pronounce it as she does, you -sound-
>> ignorant. My solution is to ask for the underwear department.
>> Here's one--"gyro". That's a sort-of-Greek sandwich of lamb/beef mix on
>> pita bread. If you ask for it in anything like the Greek way (which I
>> believe is like "hero" with an "h" like the one at the start of
>> "Hanukkah"), they think you mean a hero--a submarine sandwich. (To make it
>> worse, our local place sells both.) I have given up and just say "gyro"
>> like the first part of "gyroscope", as does everyone else around Cleveland.
>Whenever I ask for a calzone (three syllables), I always get asked if I
>want a Cal-Zone. Oh well, I suppose this bothers me less than hearing
>American journalists say nitch ("niche") and N Rowt ("en route").
That's not so much American as southern Italian. (Most Italo-Americans
or their ancestors come from the southern regions of Italy.) Final
vowels are dropped quite often in the southern dialects. Capeesh?
Roger
Greg Franklin
> Here's one--"gyro". That's a sort-of-Greek sandwich of lamb/beef mix on
> pita bread. If you ask for it in anything like the Greek way (which I
> believe is like "hero" with an "h" like the one at the start of
> "Hanukkah"), they think you mean a hero--a submarine sandwich. (To make it
> worse, our local place sells both.) I have given up and just say "gyro"
> like the first part of "gyroscope", as does everyone else around Cleveland.
This may be changing. The Jack-in-the-Box restaurant chain, yes, the people
who brought you the famous E coli burger, had a TV ad campaign for its new
beef gyro. The voice-over pronounced it "beef hero."
So if you think TV has any effect on pronunciation of strange words, I
predict people will pronounce "gyro" as "hero" universally, within 10
years.
--
Greg "Mockingbird" Franklin "Interracial mixing encompasses a lot lot more
f677...@ccit.arizona.edu than mingling between G7 races." -- robohen
Things One Wishes to See
The moon, flowers, the face of a dear one.
Well-performed No.
The furnishings of a tea cottage.
The real thoughts of one's lover--and her letter.
All famous places.
Gerry Morgan (SINT)
There is stress in French, but it is achieved by lengthening a syllable, rather than increasing
the articulatory tension (as, for example, in English). The syllable to be lengthened should be
the last in a group of syllables, not necessarily the last in the word.
For example:
1. Tu as chante' faux
You sang out of tune
2. Tu as bien chante'
You sang well
3. C'est un faux passeport
It's a false passport
The last syllable of 'chante'' is slightly longer in 2. than in 1.
'Faux' is slightly longer in 1. than in 3.
for more on this, see either:
F. Carton Introduction a la phonetique du francais
(a general introduction to French phonetics)
or
Renard Introduction a la methode verbo-tonal de correction phonetique.
(a more controversial approach to teaching French phonetics)
Gerry
F.Grant Whittle
not heard, like the guitars in Phil Spector productions.
F.
oli...@pega3.austin.ibm.com
|>
|> Ok. So will the real French please stand up. Is it French or Canadian?
I'm French and there is no stress in Frenchi, that I am aware of.
In fact, if you want to teach foreign languages in France, you will
have most trouble explaining to your pupils what a stress is.
Usually we will end up pronouncing louder or longer the stressed syllabe
but we will never really stress it. Just listen to any Frenchman who is
speaking English or German (myself included ;-).
Regards.
==========,===========================================================
Olivier CREMEL Bull SA c/o IBM, Austin, Texas
oli...@perelandra.austin.ibm.com Tel: (512) 838-8007
Freb Hunt
wrote:
I think part of the reason why Quebecois French has "stresses" in it is the
tendency to not pronounce most of the vowels. For instance, "beaucoups"
would be "b'coups," more or less.
I'm not sure what Peter Humphrey is getting at, however. Quebecois French
is as much "real" French as American English is "real" English (let's not
have nationalistic bigotry here; I might not like American spellings, but I
will freely admit it's "real" English).
Freb Hunt
fh...@med.unc.edu
Meteorology General
>
>This may be changing. The Jack-in-the-Box restaurant chain, yes, the people
>who brought you the famous E coli burger, had a TV ad campaign for its new
>beef gyro. The voice-over pronounced it "beef hero."
>
>So if you think TV has any effect on pronunciation of strange words, I
>predict people will pronounce "gyro" as "hero" universally, within 10
>years.
>--
From a down-under perspective this will be interesting to watch. Here
(Melbourne and Sydney) it is pronounced "yeeros" (always plural) and
is even spelt that way in many places (yuk!).
I will watch to see if the pull of US television is stronger than
precedent.
The recent "HoJos" thread was timely here as a recently aired
television advertisement here for "Golden Arches" using a well-known
US-import basketballer makes use of the different nicknames. Here
in Australia it is commonly called "Maccas" (Mackas?); or "Golden
Arches" for comic effect.
Michael Johnson
mi...@mullara.met.unimelb.edu.au | Most people choose to be
Michael Johnson | shaped by their past rather
Dept. of Meteorology, Univ. of Melbourne| than mould their future.
Parkville, Australia |
Whaaaat !?
>Usually we will end up pronouncing louder or longer the stressed syllabe
>but we will never really stress it. [...[
I am confused : what is to stress if it is not to pronounce louder or
longer ?
Also: when you say there is no stress in French I do not agree. The
phonetic spelling
in a French dictionnary tells you what syllable is stressed. (See
Larousse, Robert,
Acad. etc.)
The "Academie" even mentionned in a paper (Sorry, I do not remember the
ref.)
a few rules on the syllable to stress ("accentuer" in French) in spoken
French.
Tom
Pierre Renault
In french, one stresses the final syllable of a word when that word is spoken
by itself. In a sentence, only the last word receives emphasis, the stressing
of the final accent in the other words in the same sentence is quite toned
down (almost to the point of not existing).
This applies in France, in Quebec, in the rest of francophone Canada,
in Africa, etc.
Dr Peter Kittel Germany
>
>>I have lived in many parts of the United States and everywhere the word
>>"lingerie" seems most often to be pronounced something like "lahn zhuh RAY."
>
>The final "RAY" is not the only french sound I have noticed americans have
>trouble with -
Yes, this is exactly the main problems Americans have with pronunciation
of european languages: They can't pronounce steady vowels, they always
*must* add some change at its end where nothing is allowed. So with this
current example, it has to be pronounced -reee at the end and not -ray.
The latter is totally un-french. It's a common joke among Europeans to
imitate Americans pronouncing French, it's the worst possible combination
I think, much superior to their german tryings. We can laugh our heads
off when they try to pronounce "Champs Elysees".
>A very long "A" in spanish words seems to be a problem, too, as in
>"ManAAgua", "NicarAAgua" etc.
Sure, every long, constant, steady vowel. They obviously get some
pains from such.
--
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ pet...@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com
Back from CeBIT (displaying A4000T prototype), anything happened?
Gary Hypes
non-academics show a remarkable lack of interest in the right way to
pronounce it.
Gary Hypes
oli...@pega3.austin.ibm.com
but laugh, because "Lingerie sale" means "Dirty underwear" in French!
Olivier.
Colin M. Wilding
>The latter is totally un-french. It's a common joke among Europeans to
>imitate Americans pronouncing French, it's the worst possible combination
>I think, much superior to their german tryings. We can laugh our heads
>off when they try to pronounce "Champs Elysees".
>
I hold no brief for American pronunciation - far from it - but when the
laughing European refers to 'tryings' I am moved to think of stones
and glasshouses...
--
-----------------------------------+---------------------------------------
Colin M. Wilding | The views expressed in this
c...@bbc-ibar.demon.co.uk | article are not necessarily those
s=wilding g=colin | of the author, let alone those of
o=bbcws p=bbc | the organization which pays him
a=gold 400 c=gb | and for which he sometimes works.
-----------------------------------+---------------------------------------
Dr Peter Kittel Germany
>In article <C4w41...@austin.ibm.com> , oli...@pega3.austin.ibm.com
>writes:
>
>>Usually we will end up pronouncing louder or longer the stressed syllabe
>>but we will never really stress it. [...[
>
>I am confused : what is to stress if it is not to pronounce louder or
>longer ?
>
>Also: when you say there is no stress in French I do not agree.
Ah, at last someone. I already thought I were the only man on earth to
disagree. French sounds for me very melodious and speakers often use a
very pompous way to speak. And this is clearly a form of stressing
certain syllables. Or are there differing definitions?