The Fat Owl of the Remove
MC
and one of the topics is whether or not the schoolboy Taplow will get
his "remove" - which reminded me of Billy Bunter, The Fat Owl of the
Remove.
What's a remove in this context?
--
"If you can, tell me something happy."
- Marybones
Dr Nick
> I listened to the BBC radio adaptation of The Browning Version just now,
> and one of the topics is whether or not the schoolboy Taplow will get
> his "remove" - which reminded me of Billy Bunter, The Fat Owl of the
> Remove.
So did I. I enjoyed it - having heard of, but never heard, the play
before. And we never found out.
> What's a remove in this context?
I'm not sure. From context I took it as meaning going on to the exam
year rather than spending an extra year preparing but it's not clear.
Googling on likely combinations of term shows that it's still in use in
a small and select group of schools who clearly expect those who can
afford the fees to understand the terms.
This: "Most boys arrive at Charterhouse from preparatory schools at the
age of thirteen, though some are admitted from other schools in Britain
and overseas. They enter the Under School and pass successively through
Year 9 (Fourth Form), Year 10 (Remove) and Year 11 (Fifth Form). Girls
join in the Sixth Form (Specialists)" certainly doesn't help as he was
in the "lower fifth" which sounds to be what they call "remove" here.
--
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Mastrid
I've never been sure about this, except that The Remove didn't seem to
fit into the normal progression from Third to Fourth to Fifth. My
Reader's Digest dictionary says it is "a certain form or division at
some schools", which is obvious, but what was its purpose ? If (at
Greyfriars School in the Frank Richards stories) it was a year group
that was so strong that it was pushed forward a year then it couldn't
have included Bunter, Snoop, Skinner or possibly "The Bounder" Herbert
Vernon-Smith. But if it is was a weak year group kept back for
remedial treatment (which I have always suspected) then perhaps it
wouldn't have included Wharton or the bright but poor "scholarship"
boy (Field ?). Or maybe it would - that'd teach him for having poor
parents - and maybe Wharton wasn't meant to come across as being very
bright ? But then The Remove also included the very wealthy American
scholar, Fisher T. Fish, who presuambly wouldn't be paying to be kept
back ! Even more puzzling to me was another form at Greyfriars called
The Shell.
Wasn't Taplow also the name of the most annoying kid at Chiselbury
School (headmaster.Prof. Jimmy Edwards) in the TV series "Whacko !" ?
In the film version (called "Bottoms Up !") he became Wendover so that
Edwards could say "Bend over, Wendover". And Wendover was played by
John Mitchell, who later became the drummer in The Jimi Hendrix
Experience.
M.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
The school I attended had a Lower Remove and an Upper Remove.
The OED says:
6. Esp. in early use chiefly with reference to certain British
public schools, esp. Eton College.
b. Freq. with capital initial and with the. (The name of) a form
between the Fourth and Fifth year, itself sometimes divided into the
Lower and Upper Remove; (also) a class or division within another
year (esp. the Fourth year); (in modern use also) spec. a class in
which pupils spend an additional year preparing for examinations.
Now chiefly hist.
In later use freq. associated with the fictional schoolboy
character Billy Bunter, the 'Owl of the Remove' at Greyfriars
school, in the novels by 'Frank Richards' (C. H. Hamilton
1876–1961).
There was sometimes a need for additional form names to fill gaps in the
numeric naming. Sixth Form is the standard name for the final two years
of a secondary school before university. The form numbering will need
padding if the entry form is the First Form but at a lower age than is
now customary.
The lowest numbered form in my school was the Third Form. We were told
that earlier in its history the starting age had been 9+ rather than
today's 11+ so there needed to be a couple of extra names to label two
of the forms (years) somewhere in the eight from from First to Sixth.
Perhaps someone knows why "remove" was adopted for this purpose.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
John Dean
> I listened to the BBC radio adaptation of The Browning Version just
> now, and one of the topics is whether or not the schoolboy Taplow
> will get his "remove" - which reminded me of Billy Bunter, The Fat
> Owl of the Remove.
>
> What's a remove in this context?
Wiki suggests this is what the "Lower Fourth" at Greyfriars was called:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyfriars_School#Remove_.28Lower_Fourth.29
--
John Dean
Oxford
Dr Nick
In the play though, he was in the lower fifth, and was concerned - very
much so - about "getting his remove" - which was at the discretion of
his form master. It was clearly based in some way on academic prowess.
I'm coming to think, after a bit of Googling on phrases including
"getting" and "remove" that "getting his remove" means getting the OK to
move on to the next year.
From here:
http://www.archive.org/stream/ourpublicschools00minciala/ourpublicschools00minciala_djvu.txt
for example I find:
"Westly was then only two years old. Angelo tells a story of a smart
youth, "fonder of cricket than construing", l who, when bantered with
the certainty of not getting his remove, replied, (within the hearing of
the Lower Master,) "O! never mind, Dampier loves a good glass of wine;
I'll write to my father to send him a hamper of claret, and mark if I do
not soon swim into the upper school". Dr. Dampier, so far from being
offended, only retired convulsed with laughter. "
Athel Cornish-Bowden
WIWAL the Remove was the name for the class in the year between the
Upper Fifth (O level year) and Lower Sixth (A level year). I never did
learn why it was called that. Maybe Mr Google knows, but I need to go
and cook dinner now.
--
athel
bert
> I'm coming to think, after a bit of Googling on phrases including
> "getting" and "remove" that "getting his remove" means getting the OK to
> move on to the next year.
Yes, that is the sense in which Elinor Brent-Dyer
uses the phrase in her "Chalet School" series.
--
Don Phillipson
news:copespaz-83F53F...@news.eternal-september.org...
>I listened to the BBC radio adaptation of The Browning Version just now,
> and one of the topics is whether or not the schoolboy Taplow will get
> his "remove" - which reminded me of Billy Bunter, The Fat Owl of the
> Remove.
>
> What's a remove in this context?
In the 20th century, public school education began with a broad
general curriculum, but specialization began at age 15 or 16.
Thereafter (at the school I attended in the 1950s) boys were
divided into three streams: Classics (Latin and Greek,) Modern
(History and languages), and Science (and Maths.) This sorting
process (handled variously in different schools) was the "remove."
The class in which boys spent the year prior to this sorting
was called The Remove in some schools. (In mine it was
called simply Middle: the preceding year was Fourth Form,
the first specialist year was Fifth Form, subdivided into three
specialist streams, plus a fourth for extra dense boys called
the Army Fifth, designed to prepare them for entrance exams
at the Royal Military College Sandhurst.)
Taplow is at this point of his school career. He wants to
specialize in science but needs his teachers' approval for
this change i.e. needs his remove. At his school, the
remove class is called the Lower Fifth.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Dr Nick
Excellent, thanks. That makes perfect sense. But what would happen if
he didn't get it?
Phil C.
> "MC"<cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
> news:copespaz-83F53F...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>> I listened to the BBC radio adaptation of The Browning Version just now,
>> and one of the topics is whether or not the schoolboy Taplow will get
>> his "remove" - which reminded me of Billy Bunter, The Fat Owl of the
>> Remove.
>>
>> What's a remove in this context?
>
> In the 20th century, public school education began with a broad
> general curriculum, but specialization began at age 15 or 16.
> Thereafter (at the school I attended in the 1950s) boys were
> divided into three streams: Classics (Latin and Greek,) Modern
> (History and languages), and Science (and Maths.) This sorting
> process (handled variously in different schools) was the "remove."
>
> The class in which boys spent the year prior to this sorting
> was called The Remove in some schools. (In mine it was
> called simply Middle: the preceding year was Fourth Form,
> the first specialist year was Fifth Form, subdivided into three
> specialist streams, plus a fourth for extra dense boys called
> the Army Fifth, designed to prepare them for entrance exams
> at the Royal Military College Sandhurst.)
FWIW, at my grammar school (1960s) the remove was a stream that was
rushed through O-levels a year early. I was in that stream and thus
never did PE, music, art etc after the first year. I also had to choose
between arts and sciences - thus I have only ever done one year of
physics and chemistry. I think the point of this was to prepare the top
stream for Oxbridge entry - so I did do biology so as to fulfil their
requirement for one science. Not really a balanced education.
I have, though, vaguely heard of schools where the remove was a sort of
remedial stream. The name would thus seem to suggest a form or stream
tacked on to the general numbering. I suspect the details varied widely
between schools.
--
Phil C.
Robin Bignall
Good question. Repeat a year, like the French system of redoubling?
--
Robin Bignall
(BrE)
Herts, England
Vinny Burgoo
[...]
>Wasn't Taplow also the name of the most annoying kid at Chiselbury
>School (headmaster.Prof. Jimmy Edwards) in the TV series "Whacko !" ?
>In the film version (called "Bottoms Up !") he became Wendover so that
>Edwards could say "Bend over, Wendover". And Wendover was played by
>John Mitchell, who later became the drummer in The Jimi Hendrix
>Experience.
There's arcane for you!
--
VB
Jeffrey Turner
I suppose he'd be tossed to the Owl.
--
It is very easy for rich people to preach
the virtues of self-reliance to the poor.
--Winston Churchill
Mike Lyle
wrote:
It was obviously a very swish school.
--
Mike.
Robert Bannister
> The lowest numbered form in my school was the Third Form. We were told
> that earlier in its history the starting age had been 9+ rather than
> today's 11+ so there needed to be a couple of extra names to label two
> of the forms (years) somewhere in the eight from from First to Sixth.
>
> Perhaps someone knows why "remove" was adopted for this purpose.
>
My school also started with Third Form for the same reason, but we went
III, Remove, Lower IV, Upper IV, V Form.
The form I would have expected (using logic) to have been called
"remove" was the one for boys repeating fifth form because they had
failed too many O-Levels, but in my school that was just "Five Alpha".
--
Robert Bannister
Further muddying the waters
Robert Bannister
> "MC"<cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
> news:copespaz-83F53F...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>> I listened to the BBC radio adaptation of The Browning Version just now,
>> and one of the topics is whether or not the schoolboy Taplow will get
>> his "remove" - which reminded me of Billy Bunter, The Fat Owl of the
>> Remove.
>>
>> What's a remove in this context?
>
> In the 20th century, public school education began with a broad
> general curriculum, but specialization began at age 15 or 16.
> Thereafter (at the school I attended in the 1950s) boys were
> divided into three streams: Classics (Latin and Greek,) Modern
> (History and languages), and Science (and Maths.) This sorting
> process (handled variously in different schools) was the "remove."
That then does fit with the pattern at my school since after Remove (2nd
Year) we split into 4b Lit and 4b Sci.
--
Robert Bannister
annily
At my Adelaide private school in the 1960s, after 7 years of primary
school, we had:
Remove (year 8)
Sub-Intermediate (year 9)
Intermediate (year 10)
Leaving (year 11)
Leaving Honours (year 12)
--
Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia,
which probably influences my opinions.
Dr Nick
Wikipedia's article on the play shows that the author(s) of the article
thought that's what would happen.
Robin Bignall
wrote:
The teachers who tawtawse were hard men.
ke...@cam.ac.uk
Phil C. <phil...@fsmail.net> wrote:
>
>FWIW, at my grammar school (1960s) the remove was a stream that was
>rushed through O-levels a year early. I was in that stream and thus
>never did PE, music, art etc after the first year. I also had to choose
>between arts and sciences - thus I have only ever done one year of
>physics and chemistry. I think the point of this was to prepare the top
>stream for Oxbridge entry - so I did do biology so as to fulfil their
>requirement for one science. Not really a balanced education.
>
>I have, though, vaguely heard of schools where the remove was a sort of
>remedial stream. The name would thus seem to suggest a form or stream
>tacked on to the general numbering. I suspect the details varied widely
>between schools.
At my school the Remove was the third-year Sixth - which sounds unnecessarily
complicated, now I come to look at it. This was for people who stayed
on for one term after completing their A levels to take the entrance and scholarship
exams for Oxford and/or Cambridge.
I think the only conclusion we can draw is that every school uses the
expression differently, but it's handy if you suddenly invent a new class that
doesn't fit into your existing naming conventions.
Katy
Jonathan Morton
news:95ijjt...@mid.individual.net...
which the brightest boys were placed on entry - they were removed from rest
(though it was about 50/50 so not exactly an elite) who started a year
below.
Wikipedia states that the school of the play is not named but is "clearly
Harrow". There seems no justification for that assumption based on my
recollection of the play (actually I have seen only the - excellent - film
version with Michael Redgrave as Crocker-Harris).
Regards
Jonathan
franzi
>"Robert Bannister" <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>news:95ijjt...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 12/06/11 2:33 AM, Don Phillipson wrote:
>>> "MC"<cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
>>> news:copespaz-83F53F...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>
>>>> I listened to the BBC radio adaptation of The Browning Version just now,
>>>> and one of the topics is whether or not the schoolboy Taplow will get
>>>> his "remove" - which reminded me of Billy Bunter, The Fat Owl of the
>>>> Remove.
>>>>
>>>> What's a remove in this context?
>>>
>>> In the 20th century, public school education began with a broad
>>> general curriculum, but specialization began at age 15 or 16.
>>> Thereafter (at the school I attended in the 1950s) boys were
>>> divided into three streams: Classics (Latin and Greek,) Modern
>>> (History and languages), and Science (and Maths.) This sorting
>>> process (handled variously in different schools) was the "remove."
>>
>> That then does fit with the pattern at my school since after Remove (2nd
>> Year) we split into 4b Lit and 4b Sci.
>>
>At Rattigan's school - which was mine also - the Remove was the form into
>which the brightest boys were placed on entry - they were removed from rest
>(though it was about 50/50 so not exactly an elite) who started a year
>below.
>
went into the lowest form. After their first academic year, they went
into the next form up. The name of that next form was the Remove. The
better educated of the new intake went straight into the Remove,
skipping a year of catch-up teaching, and consequently taking the main
national public examinations at 15 not 16, a year early by the Min. of
Ed.'s timetable. This left an otherwise empty year two years later,
after A levels, for university entrance examinations, focused training
therefor, and more school fees to the Bursar.
--
franzi
Percival P. Cassidy
Your "Remove" was our "Upper Sixth", and was populated mostly by
students who were still rather young at the end of Sixth. Our "Remove"
was between Fourth and Fifth. We did O-Levels in the Fifth Form.
Perce
the Omrud
> At my school the Remove was the third-year Sixth - which sounds unnecessarily
> complicated, now I come to look at it. This was for people who stayed
> on for one term after completing their A levels to take the entrance and scholarship
> exams for Oxford and/or Cambridge.
My grammar school had a third-year Sixth as well, for the same reason;
there were habitually so many people in it that it was called the Upper
Sixth. The vast majority took their A-levels and left school from the
Middle Sixth.
> I think the only conclusion we can draw is that every school uses the
> expression differently, but it's handy if you suddenly invent a new class that
> doesn't fit into your existing naming conventions.
My dad went to a public school - I once asked him what the Remove was (I
was probably reading Bunter) but he couldn't give me a very clear answer.
--
David
Dr Nick
And some of the confusion here is that it doesn't appear that the Remove
is a form (although it could be) - the plot line is about whether thingy
"gets his remove" or not.