Hover

[TonyCooper]

In a call to a "Help Line", the non-native-English speaker told me to
"With the mouse, hover over...".

She pronounced "hover" to rhyme with "over/drover/rover". I pronounce
it "huvver".

Wondering if her pronunciation is normal to anyone here.

I wanted to ask her where she was, but she was really attempting to be
helpful and I didn't want to imply that her English was not good. It
was not the typical accent one associates with India.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

[Ken Blake]

On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 11:47:30 -0400, TonyCooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>In a call to a "Help Line", the non-native-English speaker told me to
>"With the mouse, hover over...".
>
>She pronounced "hover" to rhyme with "over/drover/rover". I pronounce
>it "huvver".
>
>Wondering if her pronunciation is normal to anyone here.

Not to me. I pronounce it the same way you do,

>I wanted to ask her where she was, but she was really attempting to be
>helpful and I didn't want to imply that her English was not good. It
>was not the typical accent one associates with India.

I often ask those with accents I don't recognize, but I always try to
make it very clear that it's just my curiosity, not any kind of
complaint.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 11:47:30 -0400, TonyCooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

Add a "O" and you can vacuum.

I say this because when I was a kid, my mother might say, "I am going
to hoover the carpet." Became synonymous with "vacuum".

[Jerry Friedman]

On Saturday, April 8, 2023 at 9:47:32 AM UTC-6, TonyCooper wrote:
> In a call to a "Help Line", the non-native-English speaker told me to
> "With the mouse, hover over...".
>
> She pronounced "hover" to rhyme with "over/drover/rover". I pronounce
> it "huvver".
>
> Wondering if her pronunciation is normal to anyone here.

Not me. It's probably just a non-nativism.

Today's quotation:

"Black wing, brown wing, hover over;
Twenty years and the spring is over;
To-day grieves, to-morrow grieves,
Cover me over, light-in-leaves;"

--T. S. Eliot, "New Hampshire"

--
Jerry Friedman

[Paul Carmichael]

El Sat, 08 Apr 2023 11:47:30 -0400, TonyCooper escribió:

> In a call to a "Help Line", the non-native-English speaker told me to
> "With the mouse, hover over...".
>
> She pronounced "hover" to rhyme with "over/drover/rover". I pronounce
> it "huvver".
>
> Wondering if her pronunciation is normal to anyone here.

Probably everybody that I know personally pronounces the o short as
"hovver" (o as in bother).

"Hover over" with a long o in hover would sound very weird to me.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

[Ruud Harmsen]

Sat, 08 Apr 2023 11:47:30 -0400: TonyCooper <tonyco...@gmail.com>
scribeva:

>In a call to a "Help Line", the non-native-English speaker told me to
>"With the mouse, hover over...".
>
>She pronounced "hover" to rhyme with "over/drover/rover". I pronounce
>it "huvver".
>
>Wondering if her pronunciation is normal to anyone here.

In the Netherlands, everybody says Who? Ver!
https://rudhar.com/fonetics/hovrkrft.htm

[lar3ryca]

Pronouncing it with the same vowel as 'bother' OR 'over' would sound

very weird to me.

--

The word "mini" is a mini version of the word "miniature"

[Ken Blake]

Ditto. I was just about to post much the same thing.

[Ross Clark]

"Huvver" is also my normal pronunciation, but I have heard other vowels,
so I ran my usual dictionary check:

The "bother" (LOT) vowel is normal in UK, Aus, NZ.
The "mother" (STRUT) vowel is normal in NAm (unless there is dissent
from other Canadian correspondents).

However...OED Online also reports STRUT for UK.
And LOT in USA is also possible according to Kenyon & Knott ("much less
frequent"), AHD and CEPD.

[Dingbat]

That pronunciation is possible in India where an Anglophone's
[V] pronunciation of <o> is not intuitive from the spelling.
awn-yen is a common pronunciation of <onion> in India.

[Dingbat]

On Saturday, April 8, 2023 at 11:05:43 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sat, 08 Apr 2023 11:47:30 -0400: TonyCooper <tonyco...@gmail.com>
> scribeva:
> >In a call to a "Help Line", the non-native-English speaker told me to
> >"With the mouse, hover over...".
> >
> >She pronounced "hover" to rhyme with "over/drover/rover". I pronounce
> >it "huvver".
> >
> >Wondering if her pronunciation is normal to anyone here.
> In the Netherlands, everybody says Who? Ver!

That means 'how far?'

> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/hovrkrft.htm

There's no single translation of hover into Dutch:
<https://www.linguee.com/english-dutch/translation/hover.html>

[Peter Moylan]

On 09/04/23 04:05, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sat, 08 Apr 2023 11:47:30 -0400: TonyCooper <tonyco...@gmail.com>
> scribeva:
>
>> In a call to a "Help Line", the non-native-English speaker told me to
>> "With the mouse, hover over...".
>>
>> She pronounced "hover" to rhyme with "over/drover/rover". I pronounce
>> it "huvver".
>>
>> Wondering if her pronunciation is normal to anyone here.
>
> In the Netherlands, everybody says Who? Ver!
> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/hovrkrft.htm

"Hoover over" is a different action.

I rhyme hover with bovver, and so does everyone else here.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[lar3ryca]

On 2023-04-08 15:00, Ross Clark wrote:
> On 9/04/2023 7:16 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Sat, 8 Apr 2023 12:34:20 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-04-08 10:33, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>> El Sat, 08 Apr 2023 11:47:30 -0400, TonyCooper escribió:
>>>>
>>>>> In a call to a "Help Line", the non-native-English speaker told me to
>>>>> "With the mouse, hover over...".
>>>>>
>>>>> She pronounced "hover" to rhyme with "over/drover/rover".  I pronounce
>>>>> it "huvver".
>>>>>
>>>>> Wondering if her pronunciation is normal to anyone here.
>>>>
>>>> Probably everybody that I know personally pronounces the o short as
>>>> "hovver" (o as in bother).
>>>>
>>>> "Hover over" with a long o in hover would sound very weird to me.
>>>
>>> Pronouncing it with the same vowel as 'bother' OR 'over' would sound
>>> very weird to me.
>>
>> Ditto. I was just about to post much the same thing.
>>
>
> "Huvver" is also my normal pronunciation, but I have heard other vowels,
> so I ran my usual dictionary check:
>
> The "bother" (LOT) vowel is normal in UK, Aus, NZ.
> The "mother" (STRUT) vowel is normal in NAm (unless there is dissent
> from other Canadian correspondents).

Are you differentiating between "huvver" and "mother"?
They rhyme for me.

> However...OED Online also reports STRUT for UK.
> And LOT in USA is also possible according to Kenyon & Knott ("much less
> frequent"), AHD and CEPD.

--
All odd numbers contain the letter "e".

[Hibou]

Le 09/04/2023 à 01:07, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>
> I rhyme hover with bovver [...]

I do too.

[Ross Clark]

On 9/04/2023 1:45 p.m., lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2023-04-08 15:00, Ross Clark wrote:
>> On 9/04/2023 7:16 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On Sat, 8 Apr 2023 12:34:20 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-04-08 10:33, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>>> El Sat, 08 Apr 2023 11:47:30 -0400, TonyCooper escribió:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In a call to a "Help Line", the non-native-English speaker told me to
>>>>>> "With the mouse, hover over...".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She pronounced "hover" to rhyme with "over/drover/rover".  I
>>>>>> pronounce
>>>>>> it "huvver".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wondering if her pronunciation is normal to anyone here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Probably everybody that I know personally pronounces the o short as
>>>>> "hovver" (o as in bother).
>>>>>
>>>>> "Hover over" with a long o in hover would sound very weird to me.
>>>>
>>>> Pronouncing it with the same vowel as 'bother' OR 'over' would sound
>>>> very weird to me.
>>>
>>> Ditto. I was just about to post much the same thing.
>>>
>>
>> "Huvver" is also my normal pronunciation, but I have heard other
>> vowels, so I ran my usual dictionary check:
>>
>> The "bother" (LOT) vowel is normal in UK, Aus, NZ.
>> The "mother" (STRUT) vowel is normal in NAm (unless there is dissent
>> from other Canadian correspondents).
>
> Are you differentiating between "huvver" and "mother"?

No, they're the same.

[Janet]

In article <98026ebe-6a9f-4bb4-b77c-
e9ec80...@googlegroups.com>, jerry.friedman99
@gmail.com says...

The Windhover
Gerard Manley Hopkins - 1844-1889

I caught this morning morning's minion, king-
dom of daylight's dauphin, dapple-dawn-drawn Falcon, in
his riding
Of the rolling level underneath him steady air, and
striding
High there, how he rung upon the rein of a wimpling wing
In his ecstasy! then off, off forth on swing,
As a skate's heel sweeps smooth on a bow-bend: the hurl
and gliding
Rebuffed the big wind. My heart in hiding
Stirred for a bird,?the achieve of; the mastery of the
thing!

Brute beauty and valour and act, oh, air, pride, plume,
here
Buckle! AND the fire that breaks from thee then, a
billion
Times told lovelier, more dangerous, O my chevalier!

No wonder of it: shéer plód makes plough down sillion
Shine, and blue-bleak embers, ah my dear,
Fall, gall themselves, and gash gold-vermillion."

In myE hover rhymes with bovver

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaRd7TBq4Og

Janet

[Janet]

In article <hover-2023...@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>,
r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de says...

>
> Ross Clark <benl...@ihug.co.nz> writes:
> >However...OED Online also reports STRUT for UK.
>

> We had a vacuum cleaner from a company whose name was IIRC "Hoover".
> The cleaner would exhause the air into an empty space surrounded by
> a ring on its underside which would lift the whole apparatus up into
> the air, so it would often hover when used.
>
> It probably was a "Hoover constellation" that "walks on air".
>
> hov·er
>
> to stay in one place in the air
>
> 'h?v ? / 'h?v- ? 'h?v ?r / 'h??v-
>
> Hoo·ver
>
> a name
>
> 'hu?v ? ? -?r
>
> ? is where some speakers insert a schwa [?]
> the space separates syllables
> / for each region, it is the main pron. when not behind a slash "/"
> ? separates BrE (left) from AmE (right)
> r the r sound of the respective region

He's havering.

Janet

[Janet]

In article <u0svjv$1evco$1...@dont-email.me>,
pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid says...

>
> On 09/04/23 04:05, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > Sat, 08 Apr 2023 11:47:30 -0400: TonyCooper <tonyco...@gmail.com>
> > scribeva:
> >
> >> In a call to a "Help Line", the non-native-English speaker told me to
> >> "With the mouse, hover over...".
> >>
> >> She pronounced "hover" to rhyme with "over/drover/rover". I pronounce
> >> it "huvver".
> >>
> >> Wondering if her pronunciation is normal to anyone here.
> >
> > In the Netherlands, everybody says Who? Ver!
> > https://rudhar.com/fonetics/hovrkrft.htm
>
> "Hoover over" is a different action.

I hoover over that mess on the carpet.

Janet

[Peter Moylan]

On 09/04/23 22:46, Janet wrote:

> He's havering.

I learnt that word from the song "I will walk 500 miles". I still can't
get the guitar accompaniment right. Notes are OK, timing still tricky.

It's tricky to find a standard English translation for "havering". The
best I can do is "blithering".

[Ken Blake]

On Sat, 8 Apr 2023 19:45:32 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:

>On 2023-04-08 15:00, Ross Clark wrote:
>> On 9/04/2023 7:16 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On Sat, 8 Apr 2023 12:34:20 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-04-08 10:33, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>>> El Sat, 08 Apr 2023 11:47:30 -0400, TonyCooper escribió:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In a call to a "Help Line", the non-native-English speaker told me to
>>>>>> "With the mouse, hover over...".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She pronounced "hover" to rhyme with "over/drover/rover".  I pronounce
>>>>>> it "huvver".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wondering if her pronunciation is normal to anyone here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Probably everybody that I know personally pronounces the o short as
>>>>> "hovver" (o as in bother).
>>>>>
>>>>> "Hover over" with a long o in hover would sound very weird to me.
>>>>
>>>> Pronouncing it with the same vowel as 'bother' OR 'over' would sound
>>>> very weird to me.
>>>
>>> Ditto. I was just about to post much the same thing.
>>>
>>
>> "Huvver" is also my normal pronunciation, but I have heard other vowels,
>> so I ran my usual dictionary check:
>>
>> The "bother" (LOT) vowel is normal in UK, Aus, NZ.
>> The "mother" (STRUT) vowel is normal in NAm (unless there is dissent
>> from other Canadian correspondents).
>
>Are you differentiating between "huvver" and "mother"?
>They rhyme for me.

Not for me. Yes, the vowels are the same, but the middle consonant is
very different, and to me, that means they don't rhyme except very
approximately..

[Ken Blake]

I never bovver to pronounce hover that way.

[lar3ryca]

Two things.

1. we were discussing the pronunciation of the first vowel.

2. I would take exception to your categorization of the rhyme as
'_very_' approximately. In that it is _very_ common for poetry to rhyme
words with a different internal consonant sound (or sounds), I would
consider those to be rhymes.

--
Why did the Star Wars movies come out in the sequence 4, 5, 6, 1, 2, 3?
Because in charge of sequence, Yoda was.

[lar3ryca]

On 2023-04-09 06:52, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 09/04/23 22:46, Janet wrote:
>
>>     He's havering.
>
> I learnt that word from the song "I will walk 500 miles". I still can't
> get the guitar accompaniment right. Notes are OK, timing still tricky.
>
> It's tricky to find a standard English translation for "havering". The
> best I can do is "blithering".

Interesting. In my attempts to find the meaning, I spelled it "heaver"
and "heavering", based on the pronunciation in the song.

As for translation, 'maundering' or 'chattering' seem to fit as well.

--
This sentence no verb.

[Jerry Friedman]

What poetry does that commonly occur in? (Other than Spanish or
Old French.) Are you including rap?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter Moylan]

The translation will, of course, depend on our local dialects.

For the pronunciation, though, the relevant words are "if I haver", I
hear that very clearly as [h&v@r]. I'm surprised that you hear it
differently.

[occam]

I'm not sure what 'huvver' sounds like when an American says it, but if
it is as in 'Hoover dam', then your pronunciation sound wrong to me.

Hover ('hovver') comes from the same place as a hovercraft. The craft
hovers over the water, it does not hoover the water.

[Ken Blake]

Yes, I know, As I said, "yes, the vowels are the same." But that's
not what you said. You said "rhyme," and rhyming is more than
pronouncing the first vowel the same way.

>2. I would take exception to your categorization of the rhyme as
>'_very_' approximately. In that it is _very_ common for poetry to rhyme
>words with a different internal consonant sound (or sounds),

I agree that that sometimes occurs, but I don't think it's "very"
common. Poets do it when they need to, not just because they want to.

>I would
>consider those to be rhymes.

I wouldn't. I would consider those to be very approximate rhymes.
Yes, poets can sometimes get away with doing that, but that doesn't
make them real rhymes.

Sometimes great poets sometimes have approximate rhymes of words that
even have different vowel sounds, such as Shakespeare's sonnet 101
where he rhymed "dumb" and "tomb." (Perhaps the pronunciation of one
or both of those words has changed over the years; I don't know).

Another Shakespearean example, sonnet 18, where he rhymes "temperate"
and "date."

As another example, here is such a verse I just made up.

I will go to the barber
when I get to be calmer

"Barber" and "calmer" have the same vowel. Would you consider those
two words to rhyme? I wouldn't, but I would consider them to be
approximate rhymes.

[John Dunlop]

Peter Moylan:

> On 10/04/23 01:56, lar3ryca wrote:
>> On 2023-04-09 06:52, Peter Moylan wrote:

...

>>> It's tricky to find a standard English translation for "havering". The
>>> best I can do is "blithering".
>>
>> Interesting. In my attempts to find the meaning, I spelled it "heaver"
>> and "heavering", based on the pronunciation in the song.
>>
>> As for translation, 'maundering' or 'chattering' seem to fit as well.
>
> The translation will, of course, depend on our local dialects.
>
> For the pronunciation, though, the relevant words are "if I haver", I
> hear that very clearly as [h&v@r]. I'm surprised that you hear it
> differently.

In ScE, the vowel is [e], which I don't think AusE and CanE have. I
suppose your equivalent is the diphthong [eI]. Not sure how well that'd
work when you're singing, though. If you want to reproduce the Scottish
vowel, pretend you're French.

--
John

[TonyCooper]

On Sun, 9 Apr 2023 19:56:19 +0200, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>On 08/04/2023 17:47, TonyCooper wrote:
>> In a call to a "Help Line", the non-native-English speaker told me to
>> "With the mouse, hover over...".
>>
>> She pronounced "hover" to rhyme with "over/drover/rover". I pronounce
>> it "huvver".
>>
>> Wondering if her pronunciation is normal to anyone here.
>>
>> I wanted to ask her where she was, but she was really attempting to be
>> helpful and I didn't want to imply that her English was not good. It
>> was not the typical accent one associates with India.
>>
>
>I'm not sure what 'huvver' sounds like when an American says it, but if
>it is as in 'Hoover dam', then your pronunciation sound wrong to me.

There is no similarity between my pronunciation of "hover" and
"hoover".

>
>Hover ('hovver') comes from the same place as a hovercraft. The craft
>hovers over the water, it does not hoover the water.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

[Ken Blake]

On Sun, 9 Apr 2023 19:56:19 +0200, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>On 08/04/2023 17:47, TonyCooper wrote:
>> In a call to a "Help Line", the non-native-English speaker told me to
>> "With the mouse, hover over...".
>>
>> She pronounced "hover" to rhyme with "over/drover/rover". I pronounce
>> it "huvver".
>>
>> Wondering if her pronunciation is normal to anyone here.
>>
>> I wanted to ask her where she was, but she was really attempting to be
>> helpful and I didn't want to imply that her English was not good. It
>> was not the typical accent one associates with India.
>>
>
>I'm not sure what 'huvver' sounds like when an American says it, but if
>it is as in 'Hoover dam', then your pronunciation sound wrong to me.

It would sound wrong to me too,

The vowel in "Hoover" sounds like that in do, sue, clue, rue, fool,
Jew, stoop, etc. I interpret the vowel in "huvver" to be like that in
lover, mother, cover, suffer, truck, tuck, puck, suck, fuck, etc.

[Ken Blake]

On Sun, 9 Apr 2023 19:12:49 +0100, John Dunlop <dunlo...@ymail.com>
wrote:

I don't know enough about Scottish and my French pronunciation is
terrible. Is that vowel something like the German ä?

[Sam Plusnet]

On 09-Apr-23 13:52, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 09/04/23 22:46, Janet wrote:
>
>>     He's havering.
>
> I learnt that word from the song "I will walk 500 miles". I still can't
> get the guitar accompaniment right. Notes are OK, timing still tricky.
>
> It's tricky to find a standard English translation for "havering". The
> best I can do is "blithering".
>

It can mean 'to talk nonsense',
but it can also mean to 'hum and haw' - to have difficulty coming to a
decision.



--
Sam Plusnet

[bruce bowser]

But, 'blithering' means 'talking foolishly' (Merriam- Webster). Thus, even being able to intend on things resulting later in a decision might not be in place. I guess just noise may as well be there in place of talking.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 09.04.2023 kl. 17.48 skrev lar3ryca:

> 2. I would take exception to your categorization of the rhyme as
> '_very_' approximately. In that it is _very_ common for poetry to rhyme
> words with a different internal consonant sound (or sounds), I would
> consider those to be rhymes.

Common spelling mistakes are not correct, and common misrhymes are not
rhymes. We can discuss "very" but not "approximately".

In German and Danish there is a special namem for a non-rhyme:
Neuruppin. They are named after a German Town "Neu Ruppin" where
tasteless (not pronographic, just bad) pictures were published with bad
rhymes underneath.

Rhyming "hover" and "mother" would be characterized as such, but they
can be worse.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[lar3ryca]

Well, in my (CA) English, the long e sound can be written in various
ways,one of which is 'ea', as in 'meat'. Qne that rhymes with it is
'ee', as in 'street', and that's what I hear in the song.

I have no idea what the '&' in [h&v@r] sounds like. as I have been
unable to find it in any site that claims to provide audion for IPA.
Could you tell me what it rhymes with, to you?


--
You will spend the rest of your life in the future.

[lar3ryca]

I was probably in error when I used 'very common'.

Not rap. I don't hear enough of it to comment,
Limericks are one example.

--
my haiku rocks
it has four, eleven, and five syllables
that's right, isn't it?

[Ken Blake]

On Sun, 9 Apr 2023 14:15:16 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:

>On 2023-04-09 10:09, Jerry Friedman wrote:

Then we basically agree. Good.

>Not rap. I don't hear enough of it to comment,

I hear none of it, at least if I can avoid it. I hate it.


>Limericks are one example.

I also like limericks a lot.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On 8 Apr 2023 16:33:59 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>El Sat, 08 Apr 2023 11:47:30 -0400, TonyCooper escribió:
>
>> In a call to a "Help Line", the non-native-English speaker told me to
>> "With the mouse, hover over...".
>>
>> She pronounced "hover" to rhyme with "over/drover/rover". I pronounce
>> it "huvver".
>>
>> Wondering if her pronunciation is normal to anyone here.
>
>Probably everybody that I know personally pronounces the o short as
>"hovver" (o as in bother).
>

I agree.

A BrE pronunciation of "bother" by 'Focalist' has the typical BrE
short-o as used in "hover":
https://forvo.com/word/bother/#en

This gives a BrE pronunciation of "hover" by 'ropa':
https://forvo.com/word/hover/#en

>"Hover over" with a long o in hover would sound very weird to me.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Jerry Friedman]

That system is ASCII IPA, sometimes called Kirshenbaum IPA,
developed here and in sci.lang, mostly by Evan Kirshenbaum. &
represents the TRAP vowel. And if you're interested in why I used
"trap" as an example and capitalized it, see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_set

--
Jerry Friedman

[lar3ryca]

Hmmm... I think I'll wait for Peter to tell me what he means by the '&'.
Since I heat something like 'heaver' in the song, I find it hard to
believe that he hears a vowel that rhymes with 'trap'.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_set
>

--
One of the "A"s in "Aaron" is silent, but we will never know which one.

[Peter Moylan]

Now that I've read John Dunlop's comment, I've decided that I'm guilty
of misremembering. The [&] reflects my dialect, not the singer's.

A better rhyme would be "haver' and "shaver".

[John Dunlop]

Ken Blake:

> On Sun, 9 Apr 2023 19:12:49 +0100, John Dunlop <dunlo...@ymail.com>
> wrote:
>

>> ["haver"]

>>
>> In ScE, the vowel is [e], which I don't think AusE and CanE have. I
>> suppose your equivalent is the diphthong [eI]. Not sure how well that'd
>> work when you're singing, though. If you want to reproduce the Scottish
>> vowel, pretend you're French.
>
>
> I don't know enough about Scottish and my French pronunciation is
> terrible. Is that vowel something like the German ä?

Yes, I think so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-mid_front_unrounded_vowel

--
John

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Sun, 9 Apr 2023 15:30:04 -0700 (PDT)
Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, April 9, 2023 at 2:08:24 PM UTC-6, lar3ryca wrote:

[]

> >
> > I have no idea what the '&' in [h&v@r] sounds like. as I have been
> > unable to find it in any site that claims to provide audion for IPA.
> > Could you tell me what it rhymes with, to you?
>
> That system is ASCII IPA, sometimes called Kirshenbaum IPA,
> developed here and in sci.lang, mostly by Evan Kirshenbaum. &
> represents the TRAP vowel. And if you're interested in why I used
> "trap" as an example and capitalized it, see
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_set
>

I had a problem with that set of definitions when I hit BATH; this is a
classic differentiator for English class (or clarss!)
('Bath' v.'Barth')


> --
> Jerry Friedman


--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[John Dunlop]

Kerr-Mudd, John:

> On Sun, 9 Apr 2023 15:30:04 -0700 (PDT)
> Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

>> That system is ASCII IPA, sometimes called Kirshenbaum IPA,
>> developed here and in sci.lang, mostly by Evan Kirshenbaum. &
>> represents the TRAP vowel. And if you're interested in why I used
>> "trap" as an example and capitalized it, see
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_set
>>
>
> I had a problem with that set of definitions when I hit BATH; this is a
> classic differentiator for English class (or clarss!)
> ('Bath' v.'Barth')

Yes, the original sets are based on RP and GenAm. How well they account
for other accents can vary, and modified versions are sometimes used. No
point in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

--
John

[occam]

On 08/04/2023 20:34, lar3ryca wrote:

> On 2023-04-08 10:33, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> El Sat, 08 Apr 2023 11:47:30 -0400, TonyCooper escribió:
>>
>>> In a call to a "Help Line", the non-native-English speaker told me to
>>> "With the mouse, hover over...".
>>>
>>> She pronounced "hover" to rhyme with "over/drover/rover".  I pronounce
>>> it "huvver".
>>>
>>> Wondering if her pronunciation is normal to anyone here.
>>
>> Probably everybody that I know personally pronounces the o short as
>> "hovver" (o as in bother).
>>

>> "Hover over" with a long o in hover would sound very weird to me.
>

> Pronouncing it with the same vowel as 'bother' OR 'over' would sound
> very weird to me.
>

It's absolutely fine, in BrE. It's probably your AmE pronunciation which
is at odds. If I heard hovercraft pronounced as 'huvvercraft' I'd be
worried.

[Janet]

In article <u0v6ck$1rfdi$2...@dont-email.me>,
la...@invalid.ca says...

> >> 2. I would take exception to your categorization of the rhyme as
> >> '_very_' approximately. In that it is _very_ common for poetry to rhyme
> >> words with a different internal consonant sound (or sounds), I would
> >> consider those to be rhymes.

Consonance and assonance are both used

> >
> > What poetry does that commonly occur in? (Other than Spanish or
> > Old French.) Are you including rap?

English poetry; from Chaucer to Shakespeare to modern
day.

>
> I was probably in error when I used 'very common'.

"Traditional", at least

Janet

[Ross Clark]

What was the problem?

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

saying A as in BAth is ambiguous, it depends on your locality/class.
See also: Scone (scon or scown?)

[Peter T. Daniels]

There are now three* people fighting in this thread over how to pronounce
Tony's word all of whom hsve explicitly refused to use phonetic notation
and are resorting to the "rhymes with" dodge, which tells us abso,utely
nothing about how any of the words are pronounced.

*Or now, four.

Not to mention that OP seems unaware of the phenomenon of "spelling
pronunciation."

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 8:40:08 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 22:47:36 +1200
> Ross Clark <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > On 10/04/2023 8:27 p.m., Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > > On Sun, 9 Apr 2023 15:30:04 -0700 (PDT)
> > > Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> On Sunday, April 9, 2023 at 2:08:24 PM UTC-6, lar3ryca wrote:

> > >>> I have no idea what the '&' in [h&v@r] sounds like. as I have been
> > >>> unable to find it in any site that claims to provide audion for IPA.
> > >>> Could you tell me what it rhymes with, to you?

Utterly useless.

> > >> That system is ASCII IPA, sometimes called Kirshenbaum IPA,
> > >> developed here and in sci.lang, mostly by Evan Kirshenbaum. &
> > >> represents the TRAP vowel. And if you're interested in why I used
> > >> "trap" as an example and capitalized it, see
> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_set
> > > I had a problem with that set of definitions when I hit BATH; this is a
> > > classic differentiator for English class (or clarss!)
> > > ('Bath' v.'Barth')
> > What was the problem?
>
> saying A as in BAth is ambiguous, it depends on your locality/class.
> See also: Scone (scon or scown?)

That is exactly the POINT of the system. If you actually read what
Wells says, words in the BATH class agree with one of the other sets
in some varieties of English, and with a different set in other varieties.
There is not a third vowel sound in BATH words different from those
in PALM words and TRAP words.

And using "r" to indicate a PALM vowel is an abomination. The novelist
John Barth does in fact have an r-sound in his name.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 4:47:30 AM UTC-6, Janet wrote:
> In article <u0v6ck$1rfdi$2...@dont-email.me>,
> la...@invalid.ca says...
> > >> 2. I would take exception to your categorization of the rhyme as
> > >> '_very_' approximately. In that it is _very_ common for poetry to rhyme
> > >> words with a different internal consonant sound (or sounds), I would
> > >> consider those to be rhymes.

> Consonance and assonance are both used
> > >
> > > What poetry does that commonly occur in? (Other than Spanish or
> > > Old French.) Are you including rap?

> English poetry; from Chaucer to Shakespeare to modern
> day.

I'd be interested in examples with a different /internal/ consonant,
as Larry said. I can think of one right now: unless-dress-magnificence,
in "Sailing to Byzantium", by Yeats.

I'd be especially interested in examples before 1900, and in standard
English, and in the middle of two-syllable or feminine rhymes like
"hover" (North American pronunciation) and "mother".

I should add that I do know this is traditional with /h/, as in
dishonor-on her, in "Holy Willie's Prayer", by Burns. OK, that's not
standard English. Here's "upon her-honor", and "splendor-
attend her", in "The Careless Gallant", by Thomas Jordan.

Here's one like Larry's example: other-lover, from "An Appeal to
Cats in the Business of Love", by Thomas Flatman. But I looked
through quite a bit to find that.

> > I was probably in error when I used 'very common'.

> "Traditional", at least

--
Jerry Friedman

[Ken Blake]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 08:57:37 +0100, John Dunlop

The sound bite on that page doesn't sound anything like ä to me.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Sunday, April 9, 2023 at 1:06:14 PM UTC-6, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Den 09.04.2023 kl. 17.48 skrev lar3ryca:
>
> > 2. I would take exception to your categorization of the rhyme as
> > '_very_' approximately. In that it is _very_ common for poetry to rhyme
> > words with a different internal consonant sound (or sounds), I would
> > consider those to be rhymes.

> Common spelling mistakes are not correct, and common misrhymes are not
> rhymes. We can discuss "very" but not "approximately".
>
> In German and Danish there is a special namem for a non-rhyme:
> Neuruppin. They are named after a German Town "Neu Ruppin" where
> tasteless (not pronographic, just bad) pictures were published with bad
> rhymes underneath.

In English, those are "off-rhymes", "approximate rhymes", or "slant rhymes"
(possibly obsolete). There are categories, such as "assonance" (same
vowel only), "consonance" (same consonants, different vowels), "light
rhyme" (at least one word has only a final unaccented syllable involved in
the rhyme), and "historical rhyme" (the words formerly rhymed and are still
considered to rhyme, for reasons of tradition, at the time of writing).

> Rhyming "hover" and "mother" would be characterized as such, but they
> can be worse.

But some of my teachers would casually call "hover" (North American
pronunciation) and "mother" a rhyme without any additional description,
and the same for even less similar words.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 10.04.2023 kl. 16.28 skrev Ken Blake:

>>> I don't know enough about Scottish and my French pronunciation is
>>> terrible. Is that vowel something like the German ä?
>>
>> Yes, I think so.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-mid_front_unrounded_vowel
>
>
> The sound bite on that page doesn't sound anything like ä to me.

It does to me if we cut the ending away. The soundbite is a diphthong,
while German ä and Danish æ are not. They are pronounced the same.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[TonyCooper]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 06:32:47 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Sunday, April 9, 2023 at 6:30:07?PM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:

>> On Sunday, April 9, 2023 at 2:08:24?PM UTC-6, lar3ryca wrote:
>
>> > I have no idea what the '&' in [h&v@r] sounds like. as I have been
>> > unable to find it in any site that claims to provide audion for IPA.
>> > Could you tell me what it rhymes with, to you?
>>
>> That system is ASCII IPA, sometimes called Kirshenbaum IPA,
>> developed here and in sci.lang, mostly by Evan Kirshenbaum. &
>> represents the TRAP vowel. And if you're interested in why I used
>> "trap" as an example and capitalized it, see
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_set
>
>There are now three* people fighting in this thread over how to pronounce
>Tony's word all of whom hsve explicitly refused to use phonetic notation
>and are resorting to the "rhymes with" dodge, which tells us abso,utely
>nothing about how any of the words are pronounced.
>

Who are these combatants?

I don't see anyone "fighting". There have been several people who
have contributed their thoughts on how the word is pronounced, but all
have been couched in the type of adult, non-aggressive style of
conversation that you have never been able to manage.

This is not sci.lang, and there are no requirements here to use
phonetic notation and no one has "explicitly refused" to employ
phonetic notation.

There have been 52 responses to my original post, and they have ranged
from simple "rhymes with" to usage in poetry, Shakespeare, and
Chaucer. Half a score or more of the readers of a.u.e. have
contributed to the the thread. If the objective of posting in this
group is to encourage participation and discussion of English usage,
then this thread has been a resounding success.

If you cannot accept the flow of a.u.e. as it has been for the many
years it has existed, then you should form a Moderated group that you
can control.

>*Or now, four.
>
>Not to mention that OP seems unaware of the phenomenon of "spelling
>pronunciation."

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 11:09:47 AM UTC-4, TonyCooper wrote:

> There have been 52 responses to my original post, and they have ranged
> from simple "rhymes with" to usage in poetry, Shakespeare, and
> Chaucer. Half a score or more of the readers of a.u.e. have
> contributed to the the thread. If the objective of posting in this
> group is to encourage participation and discussion of English usage,
> then this thread has been a resounding success.

If the purpose of this thread was to consider the pronunciation of "hover"
in various people's usage, it is a total failure.

[John Dunlop]

Bertel Lund Hansen:

Agreed. The recording could be better. I didn't listen to it before
posting the link. I was more interested in the Occurrence section, which
lists some languages and dialects that use the sound.

--
John

[TonyCooper]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 08:19:38 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

I am appalled at your lack of understanding of the definition of
common words. To "consider" something is to think about it or to take
it into account in a discussion. It does not mean "to resolve"
anything.

In most of the responses, the poster indicated that they have given
some thought, or consideration, to the pronunciation.

[Peter T. Daniels]

And they have no means of communicating their consideration to their
readers, because they have no way of describing the sounds except
in terms of what rhymes with what, or in terms of standard spellings.

[lar3ryca]

'huvvercraft' is exactly how I would pronounce it, where the first howel
would rhyme with the first vowel in mother, other, cover.

And my English is CaE.

--
The past tense of William Shakespeare is "WouldIwas Shookspeared".

[lar3ryca]

And I should mention that the first vowel would rhyme with the first
howel as well.

> And my English is CaE.
>

--

Easy as 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884

[TonyCooper]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 10:52:28 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

As far as I can tell, you are the only one who participated in this
thread that has any doubt about how "hover" is pronounced. The others
have found a way of describing the sound made when uttering the word
that has been understandable to everyone else.

Since you are in the "special needs" group-of-one here, perhaps John
Cleese can be of assistance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grA5XmBRC6g

Your hovercraft is full of squeals.

[Peter T. Daniels]

You really don't understand that the people from England, Scotland,
and Australia all pronounce the word differently from the way you
do, even though all of them accept exactly the same set of rhyming
words that it belongs to?

A phonetic transcription from each one would have made that perfectly
obvious.

To further disconcert you, a _phonemic_ transcription of the word from
each of them would be identical.

> Since you are in the "special needs" group-of-one here, perhaps John
> Cleese can be of assistance:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grA5XmBRC6g
>
> Your hovercraft is full of squeals.

Keep your fucking ignorant insults to yourself.

[Ross Clark]

But Wells is not saying "A as in BATH" as a phonetic description, which
would be useless, as you say.

BATH is simply a label for a whole set of words (a sample is shown in
the table) which have the same vowel (as each other). We can call it
"the BATH vowel" for short. For some UK speakers the BATH vowel is the
same as the TRAP vowel. For others it is not (and is the same as the
PALM vowel). That's your differentiator. The Wells sets enable us to
describe the main outlines of how the vowel system works without having
to use phonetic symbols or getting bogged down in minutiae.

> See also: Scone (scon or scown?)

"Scone" is one of those rogue words that jumps from one lexical set to
another depending on who's saying it.
"Hover" is another. Basically, most UK-Aus-NZ speakers use the LOT vowel
in the first syllable, while most US-Can speakers use the STRUT vowel.

[TonyCooper]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 13:51:33 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

I'll try to provide a reasoned and reasonable response to your latest
nonsense in this subuect, but explaining something to you in terms you
will find acceptable is as daunting as translating the Kama Sutra from
Sanskrit to English in the form of a lipogram that our asterisk-using
friend would deign to read.

In my original post I brought up the pronunciation of the word "hover"
used by a non-native-English speaker used in a telephone conversation
and asked if was normal for the other readers of this group. I
provided the pronunciation - in the form of "rhymes with" words - that
I use. Not what I said was the *correct* pronunciation, but the
pronunciation I use.

In the subsequent 50-plus follow-up posts, other respondants either
stated that they use the same pronunciation or offered their own
version. No one stated that they had any difficulty understanding
what my pronunciation sounds like. No one said that they needed a
phonetic transcription of my usage or examples to understand my
version.

Now I know that you follow my posts like a clump of dag on a sheep's
ass, but you didn't offer a phonetic transcription of how you
pronounce the word or ask anyone to provide one for theirs.

The problem is that there are several readers of this group who - like
me - never provide phonetic transcriptions or ASCII IPA/Kirshenbaum
IPA and wouldn't be able to gain even an approximation of the
pronunciation I use if it was rendered in that.

If you felt it was neccessary to add that to the "rhymes with" style
of explanation, then you should have done so early in the thread.

As usual, you not only have not contributed anything useful to the
thread, but have jumped in only to squeal about something that would
not have been useful to all readers of the group.

[Peter Moylan]

On 10/04/23 22:26, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

> saying A as in BAth is ambiguous, it depends on your locality/class.
> See also: Scone (scon or scown?)

By coincidence, I was recently re-reading the Discworld novel where a
coronation was delayed because the Scone of Stone was stolen.

There is no indication in the book of how to pronounce the name of the
object, but mentally I heard it as "the skonn of stoon".

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 10 Apr 2023 08:19:38 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:

The dictionaries (al least Collins and Merriam-Webster) are clear
enough about it. And the "rhymes with" method can work well if the
words are chosen with care. Cover and lover *) are not controversial,
and the US pronunciatoon of hover usually rhymes with them. The
SouthBrit pronunciation of hover usually does not. It's that simple.

*) Except in Dunglish, where many people use spelling pronunciation
for "love" and "lover", and think it has the BOTHER vowel. The British
one, that is, rounded.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 10 Apr 2023 10:52:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:

The use of ä is Merriam-Webster is very strange from an Umlautist
point of view. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hover . OK,
but it's a tradition. They used to use \ \, but those backslashes are
now gone online.

BTW, at first aural sight, the difference between what MW calls schwa
(although it sounds the same as the British LOVE vowel) and the \ä\
sample seems merely length to me. OK, and then the \ä\ sample is also
somewhat lower and backer.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 10 Apr 2023 15:23:31 -0400: TonyCooper <tonyco...@gmail.com>
scribeva:

>Since you are in the "special needs" group-of-one here, perhaps John
>Cleese can be of assistance:
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grA5XmBRC6g
>
>Your hovercraft is full of squeals.

Eals.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 10 Apr 2023 13:51:33 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:

>> As far as I can tell, you are the only one who participated in this
>> thread that has any doubt about how "hover" is pronounced. The others
>> have found a way of describing the sound made when uttering the word
>> that has been understandable to everyone else.
>
>You really don't understand that the people from England, Scotland,
>and Australia all pronounce the word differently from the way you
>do, even though all of them accept exactly the same set of rhyming
>words that it belongs to?

In SouthBrith, hover rhymes with lover and cover. It GenAm, it does
not.

So no, I really don’t understand that, that is, I do not agree.
I already found that info in 2012
(https://rudhar.com/fonetics/hovrkrft.htm) and that gives me a link to
sci.lang:
https://groups.google.com/g/sci.lang/c/goy-78hzBXA#c2c6de82ca41086d

You mentioned "a poem by Sidney Lanier (of Macon, Georgia), written in
1868, that rhymes hover, lover, and cover. (It's the song "May the
maiden" -- about the month of May.) " in it.

[Snidely]

Ruud Harmsen was thinking very hard :

If you're fishing for something, that's a fael. I like Tony's
version, by the way, and has provided an excellent extension of Mr
Cleese' insight.

/dps

--
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
Viktor Frankl

[ruudhar...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, April 11, 2023 at 2:47:39 AM UTC+2, TonyCooper wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 13:51:33 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

>> Keep your fucking ignorant insults to yourself.

> Now I know that you follow my posts like a [...]
> [...], but you didn't offer a phonetic transcription of how you

> pronounce the word or ask anyone to provide one for theirs.

OK, so I will:

The stressed vowel in the word "hover":
In General American: usually ʌ (although they usually transcribe
that ə; the truth is somewhere in the middle).

South-Brit: usually ɒ (what some dictionaries give as ɔ; the truth
is somewhere in between), that is, a rounded vowel, which in
corresponding words (not hover) in Gen.Am. is usually unrounded,
symbolled ɑ).

That's as simple, and as confusing, as it is. More confusing than simple,
and it took me about 15 years to finally get it.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 10 Apr 2023 07:28:28 -0700: Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>
scribeva:

You mean the German ä (which is opener), or Merriam-Webster’s ä?
(which is almost open, back, unrounded, so yes, very different from
IPA [e].)

[ruudhar...@gmail.com]

On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 4:43:29 PM UTC+2, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Den 10.04.2023 kl. 16.28 skrev Ken Blake:
>
> >>> I don't know enough about Scottish and my French pronunciation is
> >>> terrible. Is that vowel something like the German ä?
> >>
> >> Yes, I think so.
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-mid_front_unrounded_vowel
> >
> >
> > The sound bite on that page doesn't sound anything like ä to me.
> It does to me if we cut the ending away. The soundbite is a diphthong,

Not as I hear it. The speaker might not fully succeed in keeping the vowel
exactly constant, but that IS the intention.

> while German ä and Danish æ are not. They are pronounced the same.

No.
German <ä> (when short) is [ɛ]. When long (rarely; as in <Gespräche>) it
varies with speaker and region, and can be [ɛ:] and [e:].

Danish <æ>, is my impression, is always [e], but I may be wrong because
Danish vowel system is VERY complicated.
Confer https://nl.forvo.com/word/sjælland .

The phonetic symbol [æ] is different yet again, an opener variant of [ɛ].
It may have been the sound of Old English <æ>. (Short, long, or both?)

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

My nipples explode with delight!

> >
> >Keep your fucking ignorant insults to yourself.
>

See? you've only gone and picked a fight again!

> I'll try to provide a reasoned and reasonable response to your latest
> nonsense in this subuect, but explaining something to you in terms you

[]

>
> The problem is that there are several readers of this group who - like
> me - never provide phonetic transcriptions or ASCII IPA/Kirshenbaum
> IPA and wouldn't be able to gain even an approximation of the
> pronunciation I use if it was rendered in that.

I'm am amateur at this and am one who haven't learnt it.

>
> If you felt it was neccessary to add that to the "rhymes with" style

Oi! that was unnessessary. A bit like a body of water in Scotland that
hasn't seen a decent size monster for decades.

> of explanation, then you should have done so early in the thread.
>
> As usual, you not only have not contributed anything useful to the
> thread, but have jumped in only to squeal about something that would
> not have been useful to all readers of the group.
>

PTD can do no wrong. If you dare contradict him you are a moron, and
deserve to be told to stop fucking insulting him. Apparently. Will no-one
defend this saviour of AUE?

I'm now cowering in my bunker as I fear he will once more mention the
St**g* word.

My 'Hover' has the 'O' in 'on' sound. UKE.
A 'Huffer' is, I believe one who inhales glue vapour.
'Hoover' is a different dam word.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Hibou]

Le 11/04/2023 à 08:50, Kerr-Mudd, John a écrit :
>
> My 'Hover' has the 'O' in 'on' sound. UKE.
> A 'Huffer' is, I believe one who inhales glue vapour.
> 'Hoover' is a different dam word.

Apparently there are hovering Hoovers:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_cleaner#Recent_developments>

(As an aside, the term 'vacuum cleaner' has long puzzled me. Why should
anyone want to clean a vacuum?)

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

Absolutely!

[J. J. Lodder]

Because Nature abhors dirty vacuums above all !
(and she must be obeyed)

Jan

[Madhu]

* "Peter T. Daniels" <e15ca651-1975-462a-bea7-c3a4e830fe4en @googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Mon, 10 Apr 2023 06:39:51 -0700 (PDT):
> That is exactly the POINT of the system. If you actually read what
> Wells says, words in the BATH class agree with one of the other sets
> in some varieties of English, and with a different set in other
> varieties. There is not a third vowel sound in BATH words different
> from those in PALM words and TRAP words.

There are circles of ESL where BATH is used for BATHE.

> And using "r" to indicate a PALM vowel is an abomination. The novelist
> John Barth does in fact have an r-sound in his name.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 11.04.2023 kl. 08.49 skrev ruudhar...@gmail.com:

> Danish <æ>, is my impression, is always [e],

No Danish vowel is always the same. They all have a range of vowel
sounds. I do not know the IPA system, so I can't give an example. Æ is,
however, not as extreme as some other vowels, but it easily covers the
same range as the German ä.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 8:47:39 PM UTC-4, TonyCooper wrote:

> In my original post I brought up the pronunciation of the word "hover"
> used by a non-native-English speaker used in a telephone conversation
> and asked if was normal for the other readers of this group. I

Appar3ntly the first time in your life you encoutered a spelling-pronunciation.

She said the word the way it appears to be spelled. Period.

Hardly worthy of notice, let alone comment.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, April 11, 2023 at 1:51:27 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Mon, 10 Apr 2023 08:19:38 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 11:09:47?AM UTC-4, TonyCooper wrote:

> >> There have been 52 responses to my original post, and they have ranged
> >> from simple "rhymes with" to usage in poetry, Shakespeare, and
> >> Chaucer. Half a score or more of the readers of a.u.e. have
> >> contributed to the the thread. If the objective of posting in this
> >> group is to encourage participation and discussion of English usage,
> >> then this thread has been a resounding success.
> >If the purpose of this thread was to consider the pronunciation of "hover"
> >in various people's usage, it is a total failure.
>
> The dictionaries (al least Collins and Merriam-Webster) are clear
> enough about it. And the "rhymes with" method can work well if the
> words are chosen with care. Cover and lover *) are not controversial,
> and the US pronunciatoon of hover usually rhymes with them. The
> SouthBrit pronunciation of hover usually does not. It's that simple.

Cooper did not want to know what rhymes with what. He wanted
to know if anyone has ever encountered the spelling-pronunciation
of the word.

No one, of course, bothered to say, because picking on "oral typos"
is not done.

> *) Except in Dunglish, where many people use spelling pronunciation
> for "love" and "lover", and think it has the BOTHER vowel. The British
> one, that is, rounded.

You're talking shit?

[Peter T. Daniels]

A waste of effort, since for however many decades he's been here, he
has refused to learn to use any sort of phonetic notation.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, April 11, 2023 at 7:41:20 AM UTC-4, Madhu wrote:
> * "Peter T. Daniels" <e15ca651-1975-462a-bea7-c3a4e830fe4en @googlegroups.com> :
> Wrote on Mon, 10 Apr 2023 06:39:51 -0700 (PDT):

> > That is exactly the POINT of the system. If you actually read what
> > Wells says, words in the BATH class agree with one of the other sets
> > in some varieties of English, and with a different set in other
> > varieties. There is not a third vowel sound in BATH words different
> > from those in PALM words and TRAP words.
>
> There are circles of ESL where BATH is used for BATHE.

What that says is that some people say "bathe" with the TRAP vowel
and some say it with the PALM vowel. There is no "BATHE" set.

[TonyCooper]

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 07:18:25 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

Only PTD would make the 62nd post in a thread saying the subject is
"Hardly worthy of notice, let alone comment" after adding his own 8th
comment on the subject.

[lar3ryca]

Reminiscent of the phrase "hot water heater".

--
I asked a German gentleman if he knew the square root of 81.
He said "No".

[lar3ryca]

You are asking someone to remember something he said in 2012.
The one you are asking cannot remember what he said within the past
week, even when it is included in the quotes.

--
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them
are stupider than that.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <qdu93id0tg4n8n1kp...@4ax.com>,

Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:

>In SouthBrith, hover rhymes with lover and cover. It GenAm, it does
>not.

Ummm, yes it does. Do you have those backwards?

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wol...@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <kft93i1h66cl0pim4...@4ax.com>,

Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>The use of ä is Merriam-Webster is very strange from an Umlautist
>point of view.

No stranger than the use of the macron and breve.

>https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hover

That's a weird pronunciation; I wonder what their examples for that
were. It sounds like an attempt to "translate" the rounded BrE
pronunciation into an AmE sound (LOT lexical set in both cases), but
in that case I'm surprised they don't have a CLOTH alternative for
those of us who lack the low-back merger.

>BTW, at first aural sight, the difference between what MW calls schwa
>(although it sounds the same as the British LOVE vowel)

American lexicographers generally do not distinguish STRUT from schwa,
the difference being considered merely a matter of stress.

[musika]

On 11/04/2023 16:59, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <qdu93id0tg4n8n1kp...@4ax.com>,
> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
>> In SouthBrith, hover rhymes with lover and cover. It GenAm, it does
>> not.
>
> Ummm, yes it does. Do you have those backwards?

> Of course. Earlier he had written

The dictionaries (al least Collins and Merriam-Webster) are clear
enough about it. And the "rhymes with" method can work well if the
words are chosen with care. Cover and lover *) are not controversial,
and the US pronunciatoon of hover usually rhymes with them. The
SouthBrit pronunciation of hover usually does not. It's that simple.

--
Ray
UK

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, April 11, 2023 at 11:09:07 AM UTC-4, lar3ryca wrote:

> You are asking someone to remember something he said in 2012.
> The one you are asking cannot remember what he said within the past
> week, even when it is included in the quotes.

How nice to hear from the Stooge of the North.

[Sam Plusnet]

Because you really don't want a dirty vacuum (system).
Dismantling & cleaning everything takes forever, & then you have to get
it back down to high vacuum[1] again which takes even more forever.

[1] "Down" to a "high" vacuum sounds wrong, but that's how it is.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Mack A. Damia]

As a young announcer, Harry von Zell (Gracie foil) made a memorable
verbal slip in 1931 when he referred to U.S. President Herbert Hoover
as “Hoobert Heever” during a live tribute on Hoover's birthday. Hoover
was not present at this tribute.

[J. J. Lodder]

Yes. IIRC pumping down the Large Hadron Collider at CERN takes months,

Jan

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 11 Apr 2023 09:04:25 +0100: Hibou

<vpaereru-u...@yahoo.com.invalid> scribeva:

OK, I'll bite. It cleans by means of trying to create a vacuum. It
doesn't clean a vacuum.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 11 Apr 2023 09:01:54 -0600: lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> scribeva:

>I asked a German gentleman if he knew the square root of 81.
>He said "No".

Crazy accent?

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 11 Apr 2023 09:09:00 -0600: lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> scribeva:

The word "remind" is unknown to you?

The "remind" comes to mind.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 11 Apr 2023 15:59:10 -0000 (UTC): wol...@bimajority.org (Garrett
Wollman) scribeva:

>In article <qdu93id0tg4n8n1kp...@4ax.com>,
>Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
>>In SouthBrith, hover rhymes with lover and cover. It GenAm, it does
>>not.
>
>Ummm, yes it does. Do you have those backwards?

Yes, I reversed the two. Better:
In SouthBrith, hover does not rhyme with lover and cover. It GenAm, it
does.

[Jerry Friedman]

What I learned is specifically that the SouthBrit pronunciation has
the LOT vowel, like very few other words with <over>. The only other
one I can think of is "sovereign".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

Ah, English, such a harsh mistress. (It has rules? yes, but so many
exceptions! )