Tailors: craftsmen?
Marius Hancu
Are tailors considered:
- craftsmen
or
- crafts people (I don't think so)
---
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
contrex
> Are tailors considered:
>
> - craftsmen
> or
> - crafts people (I don't think so)
These days, people of great skill in the manual arts may often be
called "craftspeople" (one word) (singular: craftsperson) because many
people (not all, and I know some reactionaries will argue) consider
the -men ending sexist. However I would still call the quality
distinguishing the work of an outstanding craftsperson
"craftsmanship", probably out of habit.
contrex
specific endings from names of occupations where it is possible for
the worker to be of either sex, so that firemen are called "fire
fighters", policemen are called "police officers", etc.
Don Phillipson
news:2a365762-3709-4d76...@3g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> Are tailors considered:
>
> - craftsmen
> or
> - crafts people (I don't think so)
All tailors are craftsmen: bespoke tailors are also businessmen,
viz. independent entrepreneurs.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Nick Spalding
<50e5e215-87d1-4f87...@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>
on Sat, 2 Jan 2010 05:05:42 -0800 (PST):
Crafts people has an aura of peace, love and bean sprouts to me.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
R H Draney
Still, one seldom hears of "seamsters"....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Django Cat
Can somebody open a window, please?
DC
--
James Silverton
>> contrex wrote, in
>> <50e5e215-87d1-4f87...@z41g2000yqz.googlegroup
>> s.com> on Sat, 2 Jan 2010 05:05:42 -0800 (PST):
>>
> >> On 2 Jan, 12:57, Marius Hancu <marius.ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> > >> Are tailors considered:
> > >>
> > >> - craftsmen
> > >> or
> > >> - crafts people (I don't think so)
> >>
> >> These days, people of great skill in the manual arts may
> >> often be called "craftspeople" (one word) (singular:
> >> craftsperson) because many people (not all, and I know some
> >> reactionaries will argue) consider the -men ending sexist.
> >> However I would still call the quality distinguishing the
> >> work of an outstanding craftsperson "craftsmanship",
> >> probably out of habit.
>>
>> Crafts people has an aura of peace, love and bean sprouts to
>> me.
> Can somebody open a window, please?
"Artisan" seems to have been adopted as gender-unspecific term, as in
"artisanal cheese" but, to me, it does not quite convey such an
impression of skill as "craftsman".
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Cheryl
> contrex filted:
>> I could add that, in modern times, it is common to remove gender
>> specific endings from names of occupations where it is possible for
>> the worker to be of either sex, so that firemen are called "fire
>> fighters", policemen are called "police officers", etc.
>
> Still, one seldom hears of "seamsters"....r
>
>
I've read discussions among amateur rather than professional 'people who
sew' over the best term. Seamstress/sempstress doesn't seem to be a
popular option. Perhaps it's too old-fashioned, or maybe the 'ess'
ending is unpopular. Some like 'sewer' but of course there's another
more common word spelled the same way. 'Tailor' seems to imply
professional, as well as male."Dressmaker" is too limited....I don't
think I heard 'seamsters' suggested, but I don't think the discussion
arrived at a consensus either, so that possibility may have a chance.
--
Cheryl
James Hogg
Maybe it does in the Romance languages, where they don't have the choice.
--
James
Cheryl
> "Artisan" seems to have been adopted as gender-unspecific term, as in
> "artisanal cheese" but, to me, it does not quite convey such an
> impression of skill as "craftsman".
>
I think "artisan' is beginning to pick up the implication of skilfulness.
It should be, to judge by the prices charged for anything artisanal.
--
Cheryl
Eric Walker
> Are tailors considered:
>
> - craftsmen
> or
> - crafts people (I don't think so)
If your question is about their status, rather than the appropriate form
of the word, the answer seems to be yes, though I will add that
personally it seems a strange use.
The AHD 4th says of all variants of crafts--- (man, woman, person,
people), "[a/n] ------ who practices a craft with great skill." Of
'craft' itself, it gives several senses, but the applicable one would be
3a: "an occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity or skilled
artistry".
As I say, to me it sounds strange to call tailoring a craft. But that
may be idiosyncratic.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/
James Hogg
In the days of the guilds, tailoring was certainly a craft.
OED:
c1400 MANDEVILLE: "All maner of craftez, ... talyour craft and sowter
craft and swilk o�er.
1484 CAXTON: "A tayller ... as good a workman of his craft, as ony ...
at that tyme in alle the world."
--
James
Mike Lyle
I think it is idiosyncratic, as I can't imagine what else tailoring
could be. But I once gave some amateur-arty ladies cause for thought
when I mentioned that many of those at the local college were craft
students: I meant toolmakers, plumbers, joiners and so on, while the
image that came to their minds was of lampshade-making and poker-work.
--
Mike.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
"Needlewoman" was used by my late wife and her friends
(needle-coworkers?).
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Eric Walker
[...]
> I think [an objection to tailoring as a craft] is idiosyncratic, as I
> can't imagine what else tailoring could be. But I once gave some
> amateur-arty ladies cause for thought when I mentioned that many of
> those at the local college were craft students: I meant toolmakers,
> plumbers, joiners and so on, while the image that came to their minds
> was of lampshade-making and poker-work.
I think my perceptual idiosyncrasy is related. The operative phrase from
the AHD was "manual dexterity or skilled artistry". I recognize that the
guilds, as James aptly pointed out, considered tailoring a craft, but in
my mind the "skilled artistry" part dominates; a guild tailor (or a
member of any craft guild) would, I suspect, be thought not merely
manually dexterous but also artistically skilled, at least to a degree
above what one might call a "seamster" (or whatever equivalent for the
given craft).
That, I suppose, is why a modern tailor as "craftsman" sandpapers my
intuition. (Not to argue that no modern tailors are artistically
skilled--only that so describing the common run of the trade seems
inappropriate.)
Garrett Wollman
Mike Lyle <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>I think it is idiosyncratic, as I can't imagine what else tailoring
>could be. But I once gave some amateur-arty ladies cause for thought
>when I mentioned that many of those at the local college were craft
>students: I meant toolmakers, plumbers, joiners and so on, while the
>image that came to their minds was of lampshade-making and poker-work.
Telephone-company devices like switches don't have "console ports",
they have "craft interfaces". "Craft" is used in that field to refer
to members of the technicians' union. (Where as, in construction, the
word would be "trade".)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Django Cat
> > Still, one seldom hears of "seamsters"....r
> >
> >
>
> I've read discussions among amateur rather than professional 'people
> who sew' over the best term. Seamstress/sempstress doesn't seem to be
> a popular option. Perhaps it's too old-fashioned, or maybe the 'ess'
> ending is unpopular. Some like 'sewer' but of course there's another
> more common word spelled the same way. 'Tailor' seems to imply
> professional, as well as male.
Years ago I was in a band which covered the Animal's version of 'the
House of the Rising Sun' (let's face it, who wasn't?) Every time the
singer got to the line:
'My mother was a tailor '
The drummer[1] would shout from the back:
"-ess!"
After a while we all started doing it...
DC [1] He was a surprisingly literate drummer.
--
Nick
> "Artisan" seems to have been adopted as gender-unspecific term, as in
> "artisanal cheese" but, to me, it does not quite convey such an
> impression of skill as "craftsman".
I like "artisan", but have problems with "artisanal" - it always makes
me think the cheese should be coming out of the ground in a fountain. I
accept that this is entirely due to my mind being warped.
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk
LFS
> "James Silverton" <not.jim....@verizon.net> writes:
>
>> "Artisan" seems to have been adopted as gender-unspecific term, as in
>> "artisanal cheese" but, to me, it does not quite convey such an
>> impression of skill as "craftsman".
>
> I like "artisan", but have problems with "artisanal" - it always makes
> me think the cheese should be coming out of the ground in a fountain. I
> accept that this is entirely due to my mind being warped.
And how do you pronunce "artisanal"?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Cheryl
and people who made clothing out of cloth...it's been a long time, but I
thing some people were claiming that 'needlewoman' would apply to one
group but not another, although personally I think it's a very general
term covering everyone. And where do you classify the knitters and
crocheters? I never bothered about it all much, possibly as I was the
merest dabbler in some of these fields, but some people got quite worked
up about what word to use.
They should have posted here!
--
Cheryl
Cheryl
There's a bit of overlap, I think. I'd call the toolmakers etc.
tradesmen, but the people who train people in textile studies work in
the same college - but I think it's under 'Applied Arts'.
However, although I'd call most tradesmen 'tradesmen', I might say
'Joe's a real craftsman' meaning his plumbing or plastering or whatever
it was was of a very high quality.
Hmmm, looking at the site:
Textile Studies is an art-based program that provides hands-on training
in craft, with a major emphasis on the textile media. The general goal
of the program is to provide a flexible diploma-level of study that will
permit persons to explore and develop skills in the area of textile
design and production.
and they have:
* School of Academics
* School of Applied Arts
* School of Business
* School of Engineering Technology
* School of Health Sciences
* School of Industrial Trades
* School of Information Technology
* School of Tourism & Natural Resources
They don't mention 'craft' with respect to plumbers. I didn't check all
their other programs.
--
Cheryl
Nick
I don't! Genuinely, I don't think I've ever said it and I'm uncertain
I've heard it.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
They would take over the ng!
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<3-no...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes:
>
>> Nick wrote:
>>> "James Silverton" <not.jim....@verizon.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> "Artisan" seems to have been adopted as gender-unspecific term, as in
>>>> "artisanal cheese" but, to me, it does not quite convey such an
>>>> impression of skill as "craftsman".
>>>
>>> I like "artisan", but have problems with "artisanal" - it always makes
>>> me think the cheese should be coming out of the ground in a fountain. I
>>> accept that this is entirely due to my mind being warped.
>>
>> And how do you pronunce "artisanal"?
>
>I don't! Genuinely, I don't think I've ever said it and I'm uncertain
>I've heard it.
I don't think I've heard it spoken. I've certainly read it and heard it
in my mind's ear as "artisan-ul".
Wood Avens
I'm sure I've heard it (more than once) pronounced with the stress on
the second syllable (as in, for instance, invisible). I'm trying to
remember under what circumstances I've heard it, and I can only think
it must have been on BBC Radio 4's Food Programme and the like.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
James Hogg
That's the only stress recorded in the OED.
--
James
Redshade
It seems that some purveyors of dairy produce eschew both artisanship
and crafthood whilst aspiring to even greater recognition of their
journeyman skills: http://www.chateauxcheese.com/
Redshade (TFIC).
Mark Brader
> I could add that, in modern times, it is common to remove gender
> specific endings from names of occupations where it is possible for
> the worker to be of either sex, so that firemen are called "fire
Not the ones who are part of a steam locomotive crew, though.
(I wonder how many women have ever done this as their primary job.)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "...blind faith can ruin the eyesight--
m...@vex.net | and the perspective." --Robert Ludlum
Donna Richoux
> Are tailors considered:
>
> - craftsmen
> or
> - crafts people (I don't think so)
>
What I would think, and I didn't notice anyone mention, is that it is
"trade," not "craft."
679,000 for "tailor * his trade"
43 for "tailor * his craft"
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Redshade
>
> - Show quoted text -
My dear old mum used to knit, crochet and embroider all through the
50s and 60s (indeed I remember that it was she who told me that the
Bayeux Tapestry was non of the sort - it was embroidery) when it was
called "clothing the children". To make ends meet she used to work in
a textile factory along with dozens of other young women using
industrial sewing machines to make mens suits out of pre-cut
Yorkshire worsted. She and her colleagues were called "machinists".
R H Draney
>
>My dear old mum used to knit, crochet and embroider all through the
>50s and 60s (indeed I remember that it was she who told me that the
>Bayeux Tapestry was non of the sort - it was embroidery) when it was
>called "clothing the children". To make ends meet she used to work in
>a textile factory along with dozens of other young women using
>industrial sewing machines to make mens suits out of pre-cut
>Yorkshire worsted. She and her colleagues were called "machinists".
Ah, a maquiladora!...r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<stephe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>My dear old mum used to knit, crochet and embroider all through the
>50s and 60s (indeed I remember that it was she who told me that the
>Bayeux Tapestry was non of the sort - it was embroidery) when it was
>called "clothing the children". To make ends meet she used to work in
>a textile factory along with dozens of other young women using
>industrial sewing machines to make mens suits out of pre-cut
>Yorkshire worsted. She and her colleagues were called "machinists".
They might have been supervised by people called "overlookers".
Evan Kirshenbaum
On the other hand,
490,000 for "craftsman * his trade"
so the terms are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |...as a mobile phone is analogous
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to a Q-Tip -- yeah, it's something
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |you stick in your ear, but there
|all resemblance ends.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Ross Howard
(650)857-7572
Mike Lyle
> tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) writes:
>
>> Marius Hancu <marius...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Are tailors considered:
>>>
>>> - craftsmen
>>> or
>>> - crafts people (I don't think so)
>>>
>> What I would think, and I didn't notice anyone mention, is that it
>> is "trade," not "craft."
>>
>> 679,000 for "tailor * his trade"
>> 43 for "tailor * his craft"
>
> On the other hand,
>
> 490,000 for "craftsman * his trade"
>
> so the terms are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
British E often uses "trade" as a synonym of "craft", but the latter is
the term generally used in formal descriptions: a technical college has
"craft students" as distinct from other kinds. On the other hand, on a
building site, the craftsmen will be referred to as "tradesmen".
Non-fighting skills in the army are called "trades". Again, in the
intelligence services the characteristic skills required are called
"tradecraft".
There are complications, which I think we've mentioned already.
--
Mike.
Robin Bignall
<stephe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>My dear old mum used to knit, crochet and embroider all through the
>50s and 60s (indeed I remember that it was she who told me that the
>Bayeux Tapestry was non of the sort - it was embroidery) when it was
>called "clothing the children". To make ends meet she used to work in
>a textile factory along with dozens of other young women using
>industrial sewing machines to make mens suits out of pre-cut
>Yorkshire worsted. She and her colleagues were called "machinists".
My mother was a machinist before she got married, and I recall having
to explain the term here some years ago. She had an industrial sewing
machine installed at home and after school I'd cycle to various
textile factories to pick up and deliver work for her. My wife spends
much of her spare time knitting baby clothes for a charity, using wool
donated by shops and wholesalers.
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England
joe
Peter Moylan
> I had experienced with custom tailored suits, my whole wardrobe is full of custom tailored suits by JJSTAILORS, the experience of mine is fabulous with them. their prices are affordable. I heard a lot about JJSTAILORS, that they are very famous in hong kong, because of their best craftsmen.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
