Evening or Night?
Farhad
English has a different way of labeling parts of the day than my first
language, Persian. This has led to my confusion, especially when it
comes to the difference between "evening" and "night". Pls check the
brief defintions of the different parts of the day below and correct
those that might be wrong.
midnight: 12 a.m.
middle of the night: between 12 a.m. and sunrise
morning: between sunrise and noon
noon: 12 p.m.
afternoon: between noon and sunset
evening: between sunset and midnight
The preposition used for the words denoting exact time is "at"; for
instance, "at noon" and "at midnight". What is the difference between
"night" and "evening"? Is "night" an exact time? If not, why is its
preposition "at"?
Thanks,
Farhad
Steve Hayes
They are not always as precise as that.
"Night", as opposed to day, means when it is dark -- from about half an hour
after sunset to half an hour before sunrise.
"Evening" means the period just after sunset, but can also mean the period
from the time one knocks off work for the day until the time one goes to bed.
So the evening meal could be taken at any time from 5 pm to 10 pm or even
later.
"Morning" can also mean any time between midnight and noon. So 1:00 am could
be described as "early morning". 11:00 am would be "late morning".
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
John O'Flaherty
wrote:
>Dear All,
>
>English has a different way of labeling parts of the day than my first
>language, Persian. This has led to my confusion, especially when it
>comes to the difference between "evening" and "night". Pls check the
>brief defintions of the different parts of the day below and correct
>those that might be wrong.
>
>midnight: 12 a.m.
That's correct.
>middle of the night: between 12 a.m. and sunrise
It could be any time after bedtime and before normal rising time, or
something else. There isn't a precise definition.
>morning: between sunrise and noon
It could be any time after 12 AM and before noon. It depends.
>noon: 12 p.m.
That's correct.
>afternoon: between noon and sunset
That's about right.
>evening: between sunset and midnight
From AHD:
1. The period of decreasing daylight between afternoon and night.
2. The period between sunset or the evening meal and bedtime.
>The preposition used for the words denoting exact time is "at"; for
>instance, "at noon" and "at midnight". What is the difference between
>"night" and "evening"?
See above, and a dictionary.
>Is "night" an exact time?
It's an approximate span of time, not a time.
> If not, why is its
>preposition "at"?
It's a question of customary usage, not of logic. Though "night" and
"day" are opposites and similar in precision, you can say "at night",
but not "at day".
--
John
Mark Brader
> midnight: 12 a.m.
Yes, but the usage "12 am" is disputed. Most people today who accept
it as correct use it to mean midnight, but other people say it is wrong
and there have been people who use it to mean noon. So it is better to
say "12 midnight" (or use the 24-hour clock).
(Punctuation note: "a.m.", "am", "A.M.", and "AM" are all correct and
accepted. I'm using "am" because that's how I prefer to write it.)
> middle of the night: between 12 a.m. and sunrise
Not a precise term; what it suggests to me is any time after what the
speaker thinks of as a typical bedtime (likely before midnight), and
before dawn (not sunrise; "middle of the night" implies that it's dark).
Another term with similar meaning is "the wee hours". This refers
to the small number of hours in the time, so literally speaking this
period starts at 1 am, but I would not be surprised to see it used
as if starting at midnight.
> morning: between sunrise and noon
Sunrise or when people typically get up. But there's a second
meaning: morning can also extend from midnight until noon.
This meaning is often used in the context of things that could
equally well happen at any time of day.
So if I have a meeting "in the early morning", it might mean 8 am.
But if an earthquake happens "in the early morning", it might just
as well mean 1 am.
> noon: 12 p.m.
Yes -- but again, "12 noon" is better. (Or use the 24-hour clock.)
> afternoon: between noon and sunset
> evening: between sunset and midnight
I would put the boundary at the time when people typically go home
from work, say around 5 or 6 pm, rather than sunset.
> The preposition used for the words denoting exact time is "at"; for
> instance, "at noon" and "at midnight". What is the difference between
> "night" and "evening"?
"Evening" is from the end of the afternoon until people typically go
to bed, or a little before that. Say from 5 or 6 pm until about 11 pm.
Like "morning", "night" has two meanings. It either starts at
the end of the evening, or it starts at dusk (or perhaps sunset).
Either way, it ends at dawn (or perhaps sunrise).
> Is "night" an exact time?
No.
> If not, why is its preposition "at"?
I can see no logical reason.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | The plural of "virus" is "ad nauseam".
m...@vex.net | --Fred Bambrough
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Nick Spalding
on Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:09:57 +0200:
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:41:56 -0800 (PST), Farhad <fvaf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Dear All,
> >
> >English has a different way of labeling parts of the day than my first
> >language, Persian. This has led to my confusion, especially when it
> >comes to the difference between "evening" and "night". Pls check the
> >brief defintions of the different parts of the day below and correct
> >those that might be wrong.
> >
> >midnight: 12 a.m.
> >middle of the night: between 12 a.m. and sunrise
> >morning: between sunrise and noon
> >noon: 12 p.m.
> >afternoon: between noon and sunset
> >evening: between sunset and midnight
> >
> >The preposition used for the words denoting exact time is "at"; for
> >instance, "at noon" and "at midnight". What is the difference between
> >"night" and "evening"? Is "night" an exact time? If not, why is its
> >preposition "at"?
>
> They are not always as precise as that.
>
> "Night", as opposed to day, means when it is dark -- from about half an hour
> after sunset to half an hour before sunrise.
>
> "Evening" means the period just after sunset, but can also mean the period
> from the time one knocks off work for the day until the time one goes to bed.
> So the evening meal could be taken at any time from 5 pm to 10 pm or even
> later.
In Ireland "Evening" can start not long after lunch.
> "Morning" can also mean any time between midnight and noon. So 1:00 am could
> be described as "early morning". 11:00 am would be "late morning".
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Skitt
> "Farhad" wrote:
>> middle of the night: between 12 a.m. and sunrise
>
> Not a precise term; what it suggests to me is any time after what the
> speaker thinks of as a typical bedtime (likely before midnight), and
> before dawn (not sunrise; "middle of the night" implies that it's
> dark).
>
> Another term with similar meaning is "the wee hours". This refers
> to the small number of hours in the time, so literally speaking this
> period starts at 1 am, but I would not be surprised to see it used
> as if starting at midnight.
Yup, for those who use the 24-hour clock (military people, for instance),
the zero hour is pretty "wee". About as "wee" as it can be.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Robert Bannister
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:41:56 -0800 (PST), Farhad <fvaf...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> English has a different way of labeling parts of the day than my first
>> language, Persian. This has led to my confusion, especially when it
>> comes to the difference between "evening" and "night". Pls check the
>> brief defintions of the different parts of the day below and correct
>> those that might be wrong.
>>
>> midnight: 12 a.m.
> That's correct.
>
>> middle of the night: between 12 a.m. and sunrise
>
> It could be any time after bedtime and before normal rising time, or
> something else. There isn't a precise definition.
>
>> morning: between sunrise and noon
>
> It could be any time after 12 AM and before noon. It depends.
I wouldn't even say it was necessarily before noon. I know I am not
alone in using "morning" to mean the time before lunch, even when lunch
doesn't happen till 2 pm. Of course, it's always fun to correct people
who say "Good morning" when it's one minute after noon.
>
>> noon: 12 p.m.
>
> That's correct.
>
>> afternoon: between noon and sunset
>
> That's about right.
>
>> evening: between sunset and midnight
>
> From AHD:
> 1. The period of decreasing daylight between afternoon and night.
> 2. The period between sunset or the evening meal and bedtime.
Unless referring to the amount of light (which is the main way I would
use 1. above, I would suggest that bedtime is the defining factor that
differentiates between evening and night. When "evening" actually
starts, however, is much more difficult.
>
>> The preposition used for the words denoting exact time is "at"; for
>> instance, "at noon" and "at midnight". What is the difference between
>> "night" and "evening"?
>
> See above, and a dictionary.
>
>> Is "night" an exact time?
>
> It's an approximate span of time, not a time.
>
>> If not, why is its
>> preposition "at"?
>
> It's a question of customary usage, not of logic. Though "night" and
> "day" are opposites and similar in precision, you can say "at night",
> but not "at day".
>
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Another term with similar meaning is "the wee hours". This refers
> to the small number of hours in the time, so literally speaking this
> period starts at 1 am, but I would not be surprised to see it used
> as if starting at midnight.
I have never heard a non-Scottish person use this phrase except as a
joke, and among older people the joke often revolves around why the
person happens to be out of bed at that time. The common phrase is "the
small hours (of the morning)".
--
Rob Bannister
Richard Bollard
wrote:
The wee hours are when one gets up in the middle of the night for a
wee. After you've gone to sleep but before you intend to get up in the
morning.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Spehro Pefhany
I've heard them called the "oui" hours, but that conflicts with
experience.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Jerry Friedman
> "Farhad":
>
> > midnight: 12 a.m.
>
> Yes, but the usage "12 am" is disputed. Most people today who accept
> it as correct use it to mean midnight, but other people say it is wrong
> and there have been people who use it to mean noon. So it is better to
> say "12 midnight" (or use the 24-hour clock).
>
> (Punctuation note: "a.m.", "am", "A.M.", and "AM" are all correct and
> accepted. I'm using "am" because that's how I prefer to write it.)
>
> > middle of the night: between 12 a.m. and sunrise
>
> Not a precise term; what it suggests to me is any time after what the
> speaker thinks of as a typical bedtime (likely before midnight), and
> before dawn (not sunrise; "middle of the night" implies that it's dark).
Absolutely--it's not the middle of the night after first light.
My "middle of the night" is probably about 11 PM to 3 AM, influenced
somewhat by the literal meaning. However, people annoyed at being
woken up are likely to refer to the time as "the middle of the night"
unless the sun is up--and maybe even then, half-comically, if they
were sleeping late after a party or some such.
...
> > afternoon: between noon and sunset
> > evening: between sunset and midnight
>
> I would put the boundary at the time when people typically go home
> from work, say around 5 or 6 pm, rather than sunset.
...
Me too.
--
Jerry Friedman
Mark Brader
> > Another term with similar meaning is "the wee hours"...
Rob Bannister:
> I have never heard a non-Scottish person use this phrase except as a
> joke...
You have now.
> The common phrase is "the small hours (of the morning)".
I've come across that, I think, but I would not consider it common.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "*I* never have problems distinguishing
m...@vex.net | Peter Seebach and Steve Summit!" -- Steve Summit
Ian Noble
wrote:
>Dear All,
Thinking about the above, I realise that personally I have two sets of
definitions - a descriptive one related to the state of the light, and
a more casual one related to behaviour. Neither may necessarily match
either dictionary definitions or those of others on this group.
In the descriptive sense, my day is fairly cleanly divided up into
morning, afternoon, evening and night-time (not "middle of the
night"), with only the afternoon/evening split point being somewhat
unclear.
The following are the way that I use the terms in the casual sense
"Evening". Best defined by the late period of a day during which I
might expect adult friends with fairly normal routines to probably be
at home but not yet in bed (so wouldn't worry about disturbing them
if, say, I phoned them). In practice, from somewhere around 5:30 pm to
9:30 pm.
"Morning". Starts at either dawn or any time from about 4am onwards
that I'm awake. Anything before about 7:30 am is "the early morning".
Ends at noon.
"Afternoon". The period between noon and the evening.
"Night". The period between evening and morning.
As for "Middle of the night" - to me at least this is very ill-defined
(and not a term I'd use much other than perjoratively). Basically any
point well within my normal sleep period at which I'd be annoyed to be
woken up. Whether or not it's terminated by dawn depends on how grumpy
I'm feeling.
Casually, there are also "the small hours" - roughly, the period
between about 1am and about 4 or 5 am (when, literally, the number of
the hour is small). And even more restricted (but less used) "the wee
small hours" (roughly the couple of hours from about 1am to 3am - and
also about the only context in which I'd personally ever use the
adjective "wee").
As for which of 12 am and 12 pm is noon and which midnight - that's a
long and ultimately fruitless argument only capable of resolution by
convention. If it matters, use "12 noon" and "12 midnight". If it
*really* matters, use the 24 hour clock (not least, to avoid confusion
as to in which day midnight falls.)
Cheers - Ian
(BrE: Yorks., Hants.)
Django Cat
Django Cat
> The preposition used for the words denoting exact time is "at"; for
> instance, "at noon" and "at midnight". What is the difference between
> "night" and "evening"? Is "night" an exact time? If not, why is its
> preposition "at"?
Whereas you can't say *'at evening'? (Though you will occasionally find
examples of 'at evening' in poetry). There's no logical reason for
this Farhad, it's just a question of usage; people say 'during the
evening' or 'in the evening'. In fact, it's 'at night' that's the
exception; we don't say *'at day' we say 'during' or 'in the day' or
'during/in the daytime'. We can also use 'night' without an article in
ways we can't with 'day' or 'evening'. This is just one of those things
you have to learn - in the same way that we can 'go home' but not *'go
work' or *'go school'. Maybe once night *was* seen as a fixed time -
when people went to sleep - and evening was more of a period, but you
shouldn't really try to derive a rule here.
DC
--
Farhad
> We can also use 'night' without an article in
> ways we can't with 'day' or 'evening'. This is just one of those things
> you have to learn - in the same way that we can 'go home' but not *'go
> work' or *'go school'.
Thanks for your response. But as for "home", it's an adverb in such a
usage. It means "to/at home".
Farhad
Wood Avens
"Night" is not even always the period after one's gone to bed. "A
night on the tiles" might go on until 3am, but might not involve bed
at any stage. And "tonight" generally means "this evening".
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Django Cat
If you like. But then why can't we use 'work' or 'school' as an adverb
in the same way? The answer is "because we don't".
DC
--
Django Cat
> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 11:33:55 GMT, "Django Cat"
> <nota...@address.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Farhad wrote:
> >
> >> The preposition used for the words denoting exact time is "at"; for
> >> instance, "at noon" and "at midnight". What is the difference
> between >> "night" and "evening"? Is "night" an exact time? If not,
> why is its >> preposition "at"?
> >
> > Whereas you can't say *'at evening'? (Though you will occasionally
> > find examples of 'at evening' in poetry). There's no logical
> > reason for this Farhad, it's just a question of usage; people say
> > 'during the evening' or 'in the evening'. In fact, it's 'at night'
> > that's the exception; we don't say *'at day' we say 'during' or 'in
> > the day' or 'during/in the daytime'. We can also use 'night'
> > without an article in ways we can't with 'day' or 'evening'. This
> > is just one of those things you have to learn - in the same way
> > that we can 'go home' but not *'go work' or *'go school'. Maybe
> > once night was seen as a fixed time - when people went to sleep -
> > and evening was more of a period, but you shouldn't really try to
> > derive a rule here.
>
> "Night" is not even always the period after one's gone to bed. "A
> night on the tiles" might go on until 3am, but might not involve bed
> at any stage. And "tonight" generally means "this evening".
Calvin in the last few strips of 'Calvin and Hobbes' has been poorly
and waking up 'at night'? ... 'during the night'? Hmm...
DC
--
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>Mark Brader wrote:
Since many of us are still awake and kicking at 0000, also known as
midnight, I'd say the wee hours are between 0100 and 0500, or
thereabouts, a period of time when nearly all of us are asleep. The
"wee hours" are roughly the same as the "small hours of the night",
"wee" meaning "small", after all, a time when we are asleep, or want
to be.
--
Regards,
Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE
Skitt
Well, there is the "In the Wee Small Hours of the Morning" song.
With a tip of the hat to Frank Sinatra and Jamie Cullum,
Skitt
R H Draney
No, but I'm less certain about the lyricist, Bob Hilliard....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Mark Brader
>>> Another term with similar meaning is "the wee hours".
Rob Bannister:
>> I have never heard a non-Scottish person use this phrase except as a
>> joke ... The common phrase is "the small hours (of the morning)".
"Viv" (and "Skitt"):
> Sinatra was a Scot? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Wee_Small_Hours
"Wee small hours"? That's different again. But I expect the songwriter
just combined both versions to make it scan better.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "But going repeatedly back and forth in time is
m...@vex.net | cheating. Anybody can do that!" --Paul Kriha
Robert Bannister
I don't think he wrote the words himself.
--
Rob Bannister
Mark Brader
> Another term with similar meaning is "the wee hours".
Incidentally, just to show how standard this expression is here,
I just heard it used in the opening sentences of tonight's CTV
National News broadcast. This was in reference to Tiger Woods's
accident with his car.
This inspired me to search for the phrase in Google News. I found
plenty of hits in US sources and some hits from India, Pakistan,
Malaysia, and Jamaica -- but I did not see any from Australia or
Britain. On the other hand, that might just be because there don't
happen to be any major news stories currently in those countries
relating to events at that time of day. Most of the US hits were
either about Tiger Woods or "Black Friday" shopping.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto Rocket, 1829: The first 30 mph train.
m...@vex.net TGV-A, 1989: The first 300 mph train.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
>Mark Brader:
>> Another term with similar meaning is "the wee hours".
>
>Incidentally, just to show how standard this expression is here,
>I just heard it used in the opening sentences of tonight's CTV
>National News broadcast. This was in reference to Tiger Woods's
>accident with his car.
>
>This inspired me to search for the phrase in Google News. I found
>plenty of hits in US sources and some hits from India, Pakistan,
>Malaysia, and Jamaica -- but I did not see any from Australia or
>Britain.
In Britain we sometimes use "the wee small hours".
This Google search finds instances with much of the irrelevant cases
filtered out:
"in the wee small hours" site:uk -song -sinatra -track -book
One hit is a punning newspaper headline. The item is a reader's letter
and the reply from a doctor:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1201051/Ask-doctor-Ive-got-problem-wee-small-hours.html
Glasgow, Scotland:
http://sighthill.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/tower-blocks-will-be-demolished-in-the-early-hours.html
Tower blocks will be demolished in the early hours
...there is a main railway line just a few metres away.
Because of this, explosive experts will have to raze the building
when the line is least busy, in the wee small hours.
A review of the BMW M3:
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evolongtermtests/34116/bmw_m3.html
There always seems to be a defining moment or journey at the
beginning of the relationship with a new car when you just know
whether or not the two of you are going to get along. Ours - the M3
and me - came on a 400-mile slog in the wee small hours.
> On the other hand, that might just be because there don't
>happen to be any major news stories currently in those countries
>relating to events at that time of day. Most of the US hits were
>either about Tiger Woods or "Black Friday" shopping.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Robert Bannister
> Mark Brader:
>> Another term with similar meaning is "the wee hours".
>
> Incidentally, just to show how standard this expression is here,
> I just heard it used in the opening sentences of tonight's CTV
> National News broadcast. This was in reference to Tiger Woods's
> accident with his car.
>
> This inspired me to search for the phrase in Google News. I found
> plenty of hits in US sources and some hits from India, Pakistan,
> Malaysia, and Jamaica -- but I did not see any from Australia or
> Britain. On the other hand, that might just be because there don't
> happen to be any major news stories currently in those countries
> relating to events at that time of day. Most of the US hits were
> either about Tiger Woods or "Black Friday" shopping.
If you used "wee" regularly as an alternative for "small", as the Scots
do, it would be fine. If not, then it's unbearably cute.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
Do you not find that the tautological "wee small" indicates a transfer
from the song rather than being "normal" language?
--
Rob Bannister
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
I did have a teeny weeny thought along that track. It is a possibility,
but I have no opinion one way or the other.
Mark Brader
>>> Another term with similar meaning is "the wee hours".
Rob Bannister:
> If you used "wee" regularly as an alternative for "small", as the Scots
> do, it would be fine.
No, we don't.
> If not, then it's unbearably cute.
No, it's a set expression.
--
Mark Brader "If Benjamin Franklin was alive today, he'd be
Toronto arrested for sailing a kite without a license."
m...@vex.net -- Tucker: The Man and his Dream