Meaning of Alt Gr key?
Jochen Lueders
called "Alt Gr". If I remember correctly it's the same key on "English"
keyboards. I suppose the "Alt" is again "Alternate", but what does the
"Gr" stand for?
Greetings
Jochen
Padraig Breathnach
R H Draney
No, I'm pretty sure it's not "Greetings"....
Okay, enough with the level-jumping...when I had a Dutch-made laptop a
few years back, it had this key, which I understood to mean "Alternate
Graphics"...if it does what I think it does, you get a different set
of characters if you hold down this key in the manner of a shift key
while pressing other letters and numbers....
Example: by holding down the right-side "Alt" key (the nearest
equivalent on my remapped "English - US International" keyboard while
typing the letter C, I get the symbol © (which looks like the
"c-in-a-circle" copyright symbol from here; you may display something
different)....r
--
Then the little dyslexic bear said,
"Someone's been sitting in MY porridge!"
John Dean
"Padraig Breathnach" <padr...@iol.ie> wrote in message
news:mebfvtogr210p1r3s...@4ax.com...
I thought it was short for Grrrrr because it was frustrating to work out
what it did differently from the Alt key?
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Padraig Breathnach
>
>"Padraig Breathnach" <padr...@iol.ie> wrote in message
>news:mebfvtogr210p1r3s...@4ax.com...
>> "Jochen Lueders" <Jochen...@web.de> wrote:
>>
>> >On the right side of the spacebar on my (German) keyboard there's a key
>> >called "Alt Gr". If I remember correctly it's the same key on "English"
>> >keyboards. I suppose the "Alt" is again "Alternate", but what does the
>> >"Gr" stand for?
>> >
>> Graphics.
>>
>I thought it was short for Grrrrr because it was frustrating to work out
>what it did differently from the Alt key?
If you need accented characters like á, é, í, ó,and ú (which might not
show up on everybody's system) it is useful. As I occasionally produce
stuff in Irish or French, I benefit.
PB
N.Mitchum
----
There's no such key on my American keyboards. To the right of the
spacebar is a second "Alt" key, and a "Ctrl" key next to that. No
"Alt Gr" anywhere. What does yours do?
----NM
Harvey V
Mine has it -- the sequence to the right of the space bar goes "Alt
Gr/Windows/posting (or right click) key/Ctrl". I *think* it's a
legacy key from the days when an extra layer of Alt functions were
layered on the F keys.
I may be mistaken in this, but didn't programmes like Word Perfect
have certain functions that used it? I always thought it stood for
"Green", but that may be because the cheat-sheet for the F keys
marked certain functions with green text.
Harvey
Old Timer
Harvey V wrote:
> I may be mistaken in this, but didn't programmes like Word Perfect
> have certain functions that used it? I always thought it stood for
> "Green", but that may be because the cheat-sheet for the F keys
> marked certain functions with green text.
>
I do not believe WP used it. I have written with WP for years--cannot
stand Word, etc.,--and I do not remember ever noticing that key before.
The F functions were usually along top (still F1, etc) line. I have an
IBM keyboard.
Tony Cooper
>
> I may be mistaken in this, but didn't programmes like Word Perfect
> have certain functions that used it? I always thought it stood for
> "Green", but that may be because the cheat-sheet for the F keys
> marked certain functions with green text.
My keyboard has a key to the right of the right "alt" that
opens the windows commands, and one next to that with an
unidentified symbol on it that has magic powers. In Word
Perfect, it asks how many times to repeat a "paste" action,
in Usenet, it is a hot key to copy, paste, undo, cut,
delete, and select all. On a web page, it does similar
things but the window pops up in a different place and has
slightly different choices. I'll have to try it in Lotus
and other programs since it does not seem to have a
universal action. I also have a special row of buttons at
the top of the keyboard to do all the same things (plus
more) and to do things with the CD player/recorder. I
believe all those buttons and keys are programmable
With all these shortcuts, I continue to do the same things
the same old way because it's simple. It would take me an
entire evening to learn to save time.
--
Tony Cooper aka: tony_co...@yahoo.com
Provider of Jots and Tittles
Mark Barratt
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Harvey V wrote:
>>
>> I may be mistaken in this, but didn't programmes like Word Perfect
>> have certain functions that used it? I always thought it stood for
>> "Green", but that may be because the cheat-sheet for the F keys
>> marked certain functions with green text.
>
>My keyboard has a key to the right of the right "alt" that
>opens the windows commands, and one next to that with an
>unidentified symbol on it that has magic powers.
Arthur C Clarke said: "Any sufficiently advanced technology
is indistinguishable from magic." This appears to hold true for you,
anyway, Tony.
The key you refer to does what every other key on the keyboard does -
it causes an interrupt which results in information being available to
running applications telling them which key (or key combination) was
pressed. Except in a few cases where specific key combinations are
recognised and acted upon by the operating system (obvious examples in
Windows are alt-tab, alt-F4, and Ctrl-alt-del), pressing a key does
nothing at all unless the application which currently has control of
the keyboard expects that keypress and has a programmed response to
it.
>In Word
>Perfect, it asks how many times to repeat a "paste" action,
I'll take your wordperfect for it.
>in Usenet, it is a hot key to copy, paste, undo, cut,
>delete, and select all.
In Usenet? I think you mean in whatever software you use to access
Usenet. Netscape, from your headers.
>On a web page, it does similar
>things but the window pops up in a different place and has
>slightly different choices.
Again, you mean "in my web browser..."
>I'll have to try it in Lotus
>and other programs since it does not seem to have a
>universal action.
Yes. It's just a numbered button.
>I also have a special row of buttons at
>the top of the keyboard to do all the same things (plus
>more) and to do things with the CD player/recorder. I
>believe all those buttons and keys are programmable
Yes. The Compaq laptop that I'm using right now has an array of
"special feature buttons" above the conventional keyboard. One of them
opens a new HTML email in Outlook Express, a couple of others open
browser windows at sites where Compaq is trying to sell me something.
I forget what the other two do, but it's no more useful. I'm aware
that if I wanted to get the Compaq manual out of its shrink-wrap, I
could re-program these buttons to produce any useful extended-key-code
that I can think of. The only trouble is, I can't think of any such
useful key codes that would make it worth the bother.
>With all these shortcuts, I continue to do the same things
>the same old way because it's simple. It would take me an
>entire evening to learn to save time.
It can certainly be worth the time to learn keyboard shortcuts in some
applications (or even, in frequently-used applications providing macro
languages, to learn how to define them). Such sequences are not,
however, likely to automatically involve 'special' keys (since there's
no likelihood that everyone has such a key).
Any competent Windows user should know Alt-tab, Alt-F4, Ctrl-Alt-Del,
Ctrl-C, Ctrl-X and Ctrl-V, though. (Ctrl-F6 and Ctrl-F4 are fairly
standard, too).
Harvey V
wrote:
> I also have a special row of buttons at
> the top of the keyboard to do all the same things (plus
> more) and to do things with the CD player/recorder. I
> believe all those buttons and keys are programmable
I finally got around to downloading some software to programme the
similar keys on my keyboard (which I'd had for about 2 years; it was
a replacement when the original basic keyboard packed it in).
I wish I'd done it earlier: I find them useful. I'm on a cable
modem (always connected), so the one-button access is nice for a few
things (launching e-mail, browser, the bank site and news reader). I
also find I use the "eject CD" button, which is easier than right-
clicking and finding "eject", or leaning over to the PC to push the
button.
It took me a long time to get around to bothering to configure the
things, but they're actually quite useful.
Harvey
Charles Riggs
French I can understand, but how can producing stuff in a dead
language benefit you or others? Reading it -- old poetry, for example,
for its literary value -- I can understand, but who needs any more of
it? English is the language of Ireland and de Valera did much damage
forcing children to neglect other subjects by learning a tongue which
has out-lived its usefulness.
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
wrote:
Word Pro, formerly called Ami Pro, from Lotus is the best word
processor for IBM PCs and their compatibles. Does IBM even make a PC
anymore, by the way?
Charles Riggs
Padraig Breathnach
>On Sun, 18 Nov 2001 15:35:21 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
><padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
>>If you need accented characters like á, é, í, ó,and ú (which might not
>>show up on everybody's system) it is useful. As I occasionally produce
>>stuff in Irish or French, I benefit.
>
>French I can understand, but how can producing stuff in a dead
>language benefit you or others? Reading it -- old poetry, for example,
>for its literary value -- I can understand, but who needs any more of
>it?
>
First, Irish is not dead; weak yes; in terminal decline, possibly; but
not dead.
Second, I can speak it, and so can many in my circle, and we sometimes
enjoy conversing in Irish.
Third, it puts or keeps me in touch with the history and society from
which I have come -- it gives me a sense of continuity and, at a
deeper level, gives me some insight into the Irish way of seeing the
world.
It's also very useful for deflecting unwelcome people like the
professional importuners one encounters in tourist destinations.
>English is the language of Ireland and de Valera did much damage
>forcing children to neglect other subjects by learning a tongue which
>has out-lived its usefulness.
>
English is the first language of most Irish people and one of the two
official languages. There are some tens of thousands who speak Irish
as a first language. I would not favour coercing them into abandoning
it.
In general, education policy in relation to Irish has not been
successful.
PB
Old Timer
Charles Riggs wrote:
> Word Pro, formerly called Ami Pro, from Lotus is the best word
> processor for IBM PCs and their compatibles. Does IBM even make a PC
> anymore, by the way?
>
IBM does only direct sales on-line or to current owners; see their site for
some really good designs. For years, I avoided IBM because of the high
cost. Then my nephew built us a 286 dos clone and put Word Perf and Quattro
Pro on it. My son bought a built-to-order Win 95 machine the day Windows
was released, but I stuck with dos a bit longer. I still avoided the more
expensive IBM while I tried out two highly touted duds, but in summer of
'96, I finally shelled out for 'the real thing.' It has never had a problem
I could not fix myself, and their trouble-shooting book is a gem.
My preference for Word Perf is based on the fact that WP stays out of the way
while I write. I despise templates and -checkers. Formatting options,
beyond the very basic, seem to interrupt the 'thinking' process part of my
writing. I never did try the Lotus Suite, so I can't comment on that one.
As I said in another thread, this machine will soon get a Linux option.
There's a Linux version of WP around, so I have no plans to switch.
John Ings
wrote:
It's a function key used by bilingual keyboards. In Canada many
keyboards have extra fiddles to allow for the accents, graves and
cedillas beloved of franco phones. On the keyboard I'm using at the
moment it's labeled Alt Car meaning alternate characters.
I presume Alt Gr permits umlauts and suchlike needed for proper
German.
## Buy old masters. They fetch a better price than old mistresses!
fruitbat
>
> My keyboard has a key to the right of the right "alt" that
> opens the windows commands, and one next to that with an
> unidentified symbol on it that has magic powers. In Word
On my keyboard, it looks like a menu with a mouse pointer.
> Perfect, it asks how many times to repeat a "paste" action,
> in Usenet, it is a hot key to copy, paste, undo, cut,
> delete, and select all. On a web page, it does similar
> things but the window pops up in a different place and has
> slightly different choices.
I think Microsoft refers to them as the "Windows" and "Application"
keys, respectively. The choices you get from the application key
should be the same as when you right-click (since the two actions are
supposed to be equivalent), but I wasn't sure from your post if that
was the case for you... I'd be surprised if they did something
application-specific, though. I kinda thought MS wanted the function
of those keys to be left alone...
Also, on my Sun keyboard at work, to the right of the right meta key,
there's a "Compose" key, which looks like it has an LED in it (like
Caps Lock and Num Lock), but never lights up when I press it (it
apparently loads x-compose in XEmacs, though, whatever that does).
Next to that, there's an Alt Gr key, but I can't get it to do a darn
thing. I don't know of an app I could test it with, though. I never
even took note of the Alt Gr key before I saw this thread today...
Tony Cooper
>
> Charles Riggs <chr...@gofree.indigo.ie> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 18 Nov 2001 15:35:21 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
> ><padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
> >
> >>If you need accented characters like á, é, í, ó,and ú (which might not
> >>show up on everybody's system) it is useful. As I occasionally produce
> >>stuff in Irish or French, I benefit.
> >
> >French I can understand, but how can producing stuff in a dead
> >language benefit you or others? Reading it -- old poetry, for example,
> >for its literary value -- I can understand, but who needs any more of
> >it?
> >
> First, Irish is not dead; weak yes; in terminal decline, possibly; but
> not dead.
>
> Second, I can speak it, and so can many in my circle, and we sometimes
> enjoy conversing in Irish.
>
People in the Gaeltacht would be surprised to hear Irish is
dead. It's odd that Charles would make the comment, since
the western area of Ireland - specifically the "Wesht" or
northwest - has more Irish speakers than any other part of
Ireland. The Irish schools still teach Irish gaelic, and
some jobs in Ireland have the language as a requirement for
employment. It used to be that all teachers in all schools
had to have the Irish. As far as I know, that hasn't
changed. Unless they've changed things from my last trip,
every roadsign is in English and in Irish gaelic.
Besides, Irish is useful. How else would the Pogues have
come with such a name?
Tony Cooper
>
> >in Usenet, it is a hot key to copy, paste, undo, cut,
> >delete, and select all.
>
> In Usenet? I think you mean in whatever software you use to access
> Usenet. Netscape, from your headers.
>
> >On a web page, it does similar
> >things but the window pops up in a different place and has
> >slightly different choices.
>
> Again, you mean "in my web browser..."
>
> applications (or even, in frequently-used applications providing macro
> languages, to learn how to define them). Such sequences are not,
> however, likely to automatically involve 'special' keys (since there's
> no likelihood that everyone has such a key).
>
> Any competent Windows user should know Alt-tab, Alt-F4, Ctrl-Alt-Del,
> Ctrl-C, Ctrl-X and Ctrl-V, though. (Ctrl-F6 and Ctrl-F4 are fairly
> standard, too).
I have the same view of such things that I do of automobile
engines and the connecting devices that make the machine
go: learn only what is necessary to operate the device in
the simplest possible manner.
On the rare occasion that I visit an automobile lot, the
saleperson insists on opening the hood and showing me the
great complexities hidden there. I never look. I assume
that any reputable automobile agency sells a vehicle that
comes with working components in that compartment. How they
work, and the great number of devices that enable them to
work, is beyond both my ken and my interest.
I have been working with computers since my first pre-DOS
Archives CPM unit with no hard drive and only slots for the
A and B disks. I bought the machine to do - then - Wordstar
and Visicalc. It was the output that interested me, and not
they way it managed to output.
I am not a "competent" Windows user. That Ctrl-Alt-Del
thingy I know, but refer to it as the "Damn it, I'm locked
up again" maneuver. I have no idea what those "F" keys do,
except that I am instructed to use them by certain
installations and programs. I decided long ago that once I
have mastered a way to accomplish a task to my satisfaction,
that further alternatives are - at best - possible savers of
nanoseconds. Without a need for extra nanoseconds in my
life, they are best left unexplored as these "shortcuts" too
often hijack prior work and send that work to that great
limbo of technology represented by the blue screen.
I am competent at word processing, spreadsheets, Quicken,
Quickbooks, and various photo and graphics programs. I
manage to find Usenet by whatever name and by whatever means
that gets me to view your post. I manage to find websites
and search engines (OK, they are technically websites,
right?) by whatever name and by whatever means. The beige
components and I have found a pleasing balance that I don't
intend to tip.
Matthew M. Huntbach
> Padraig Breathnach wrote:
> > First, Irish is not dead; weak yes; in terminal decline, possibly; but
> > not dead.
> >
> > Second, I can speak it, and so can many in my circle, and we sometimes
> > enjoy conversing in Irish.
> People in the Gaeltacht would be surprised to hear Irish is
> dead. It's odd that Charles would make the comment, since
> the western area of Ireland - specifically the "Wesht" or
> northwest - has more Irish speakers than any other part of
> Ireland. The Irish schools still teach Irish gaelic, and
> some jobs in Ireland have the language as a requirement for
> employment. It used to be that all teachers in all schools
> had to have the Irish. As far as I know, that hasn't
> changed. Unless they've changed things from my last trip,
> every roadsign is in English and in Irish gaelic.
I remember reading a survey done some years ago which found that
no-one in the Gaeltacht was actually bringing their childen up to
speak Irish as a first language. This contrasts with Welsh, where
there are still a fair number of kids brought up to speak it
first and English second, and even Scots Gaelic which still has
some kids brought up to use it first in the Western Isles.
The problem seems to be killing it with kindness - no-one wants to
admit what a bad state it's in, so there's been a consistent
tendency - and one can see it right from the start of the Irish
Republic - to grossly overestimate the number of Irish speakers.
The offputting grammatical way in which it was taught in schools,
which served to put many Irish people right off the language, was
based on the fond notion that many Irish people could speak it,
they just needed a bit of formal grammar to brush it up. Had they
been more realistic about Irish people's lack of knowledge of the
language they might have realised that to get it going they would
have to teach it from scratch in a conversational style.
Irish people I know who were brought up in the parts of Ireland
where no-one spoke Irish complain bitterly about how horrendous the
compulsory lessons in it were. Irish people I know who were brought
up in areas where some Irish was spoken complain bitterly about
schools where it was used to teach half the lessons, even though
the kids understood it very poorly so got very little form the lessons.
Making the language compulsory for some jobs is a dead certain way
of making sure people claim greater competency in it that they
really have, thus leading to an over-optimistic belief about the
real state of its usage.
Sure, there are plenty of people who pick it up as a hobby for cultural
reasons. But whether it can really be classed as a "living language"
when no-one's picking it up as a mother tongue is debatable. After
all, there were plenty of people in the past who were fluent in
Latin, long after Latin died as a mother tongue.
Matthew Huntbach
Padraig Breathnach
>I remember reading a survey done some years ago which found that
>no-one in the Gaeltacht was actually bringing their childen up to
>speak Irish as a first language.
>
I never saw such a survey. I can tell you, from personal knowledge,
that the finding is false. What is true is that the use of Irish is
declining.
>This contrasts with Welsh, where
>there are still a fair number of kids brought up to speak it
>first and English second, and even Scots Gaelic which still has
>some kids brought up to use it first in the Western Isles.
>
I know little about the state of Scots Gaelic, but I am impressed by
the numbers of people in North Wales who seem to use Welsh as their
everyday language.
>The problem seems to be killing it with kindness - no-one wants to
>admit what a bad state it's in, so there's been a consistent
>tendency - and one can see it right from the start of the Irish
>Republic - to grossly overestimate the number of Irish speakers.
>The offputting grammatical way in which it was taught in schools,
>which served to put many Irish people right off the language, was
>based on the fond notion that many Irish people could speak it,
>they just needed a bit of formal grammar to brush it up. Had they
>been more realistic about Irish people's lack of knowledge of the
>language they might have realised that to get it going they would
>have to teach it from scratch in a conversational style.
>
Your comments on teaching are many years out of date.
>Irish people I know who were brought up in the parts of Ireland
>where no-one spoke Irish complain bitterly about how horrendous the
>compulsory lessons in it were. Irish people I know who were brought
>up in areas where some Irish was spoken complain bitterly about
>schools where it was used to teach half the lessons, even though
>the kids understood it very poorly so got very little form the lessons.
>
I suspect that there is no place in Ireland with a population of more
than 100 where nobody speaks at least some Irish.
>Making the language compulsory for some jobs is a dead certain way
>of making sure people claim greater competency in it that they
>really have, thus leading to an over-optimistic belief about the
>real state of its usage.
>
>Sure, there are plenty of people who pick it up as a hobby for cultural
>reasons. But whether it can really be classed as a "living language"
>when no-one's picking it up as a mother tongue is debatable. After
>all, there were plenty of people in the past who were fluent in
>Latin, long after Latin died as a mother tongue.
>
Irish is my second language and is far more to me than a hobby. For
many in my circle, including members of my extended family, it is a
first and everyday language. Is that "living" enough?
PB
Jonathan Jordan
> m...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew M. Huntbach) wrote:
>
> >I remember reading a survey done some years ago which found that
> >no-one in the Gaeltacht was actually bringing their childen up to
> >speak Irish as a first language.
> >
> I never saw such a survey. I can tell you, from personal knowledge,
> that the finding is false. What is true is that the use of Irish is
> declining.
>
I have heard local people in Connemara, including people in their 20s at the
oldest, speaking in Irish amongst themselves.
> >This contrasts with Welsh, where
> >there are still a fair number of kids brought up to speak it
> >first and English second, and even Scots Gaelic which still has
> >some kids brought up to use it first in the Western Isles.
> >
> I know little about the state of Scots Gaelic, but I am impressed by
> the numbers of people in North Wales who seem to use Welsh as their
> everyday language.
Scots Gaelic (which is usually pronounced /galIk/ "gallic") is mainly spoken
on Skye and the Western Isles, and also maybe some of the other islands to
the south (Islay?). It is also used throughout the Highlands for
topographical names, so even non-Gaelic-speaking hillwalkers (like me) have
to either get to grips with names like Carn Dearg (which, in English
phonemes, is something like /kA:rn dZEr@k/ "carn jerrack") and Stob Coire
Sgreamhach (which I can't pronounce), or produce grotesque
mispronunciations. The latter option seems to be commoner.
I think the status of Gaelic in the Gaidhealtachd of Scotland is similar to
that of Irish in the Irish Gaeltacht, but I'm not sure about the Western
Isles, where it may be stronger. I'm fairly sure that Welsh is stronger
than either.
Jonathan
Padraig Breathnach
>
>Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> wrote in message
>news:mkfivtci6ha893231...@4ax.com...
>> m...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew M. Huntbach) wrote:
>>
>> >I remember reading a survey done some years ago which found that
>> >no-one in the Gaeltacht was actually bringing their childen up to
>> >speak Irish as a first language.
>> >
>> I never saw such a survey. I can tell you, from personal knowledge,
>> that the finding is false. What is true is that the use of Irish is
>> declining.
>>
>
>I have heard local people in Connemara, including people in their 20s at the
>oldest, speaking in Irish amongst themselves.
>
think that they are less concerned about appearing cool by speaking
English.
Gaeltacht people can be careless in their assumptions. I know several
Irish-speaking women who have had fairly similar experiences -- that
of having their merits discussed by the local lads who assumed,
because they were visitors to the area, that they were not Irish
speakers. It happened to a cousin of mine; when she told her mother
about it, the mother was able to tell her that she had a similar
experience thirty years previously.
>> >This contrasts with Welsh, where
>> >there are still a fair number of kids brought up to speak it
>> >first and English second, and even Scots Gaelic which still has
>> >some kids brought up to use it first in the Western Isles.
>> >
>> I know little about the state of Scots Gaelic, but I am impressed by
>> the numbers of people in North Wales who seem to use Welsh as their
>> everyday language.
>
>Scots Gaelic (which is usually pronounced /galIk/ "gallic") is mainly spoken
>on Skye and the Western Isles, and also maybe some of the other islands to
>the south (Islay?). It is also used throughout the Highlands for
>topographical names, so even non-Gaelic-speaking hillwalkers (like me) have
>to either get to grips with names like Carn Dearg (which, in English
>phonemes, is something like /kA:rn dZEr@k/ "carn jerrack") and Stob Coire
>Sgreamhach (which I can't pronounce), or produce grotesque
>mispronunciations. The latter option seems to be commoner.
>
I expect that I could get close to the proper pronunciation. Scots
Gaelic is very close to Donegal Irish (the dialect of the north-west
of Ireland). Although my dialect is that of Connemara, most reasonably
good speakers of Irish can manage the sounds of the different
dialects. I can understand some Scots Gaelic when it is spoken slowly.
Sorry I cannot help you with the sounds, Jonathan, but I have not
mastered ASCII IPA. But if you are passing my way, and would like a
coffee...
>I think the status of Gaelic in the Gaidhealtachd of Scotland is similar to
>that of Irish in the Irish Gaeltacht, but I'm not sure about the Western
>Isles, where it may be stronger. I'm fairly sure that Welsh is stronger
>than either.
>
That is my impression also. I envy them.
PB
Charles Riggs
<padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
My primary motivation for making my cracks was envy. I find it to be a
most aggravating language to try to learn.
Charles Riggs
Matthew M. Huntbach
> >I remember reading a survey done some years ago which found that
> >no-one in the Gaeltacht was actually bringing their childen up to
> >speak Irish as a first language.
> I never saw such a survey. I can tell you, from personal knowledge,
> that the finding is false. What is true is that the use of Irish is
> declining.
It was in a serious journal of linguistics. Of course, the methodology
may be suspect - it could be the case that people in the Gaeltacht
who are bringing up their children to speak Irish as their first
language feel shy about admitting this when questioned about it by
outsiders.
Please note, as I have to KEEP stating in this newsgroup, that
noting a fact does not mean satisfaction with that fact's existence.
Personally I am a supporter of minority languages being kept alive,
and read this rather pessimistic report about the state of Irish as
a mother tongue language with sadness.
> >The problem seems to be killing it with kindness - no-one wants to
> >admit what a bad state it's in, so there's been a consistent
> >tendency - and one can see it right from the start of the Irish
> >Republic - to grossly overestimate the number of Irish speakers.
> >The offputting grammatical way in which it was taught in schools,
> >which served to put many Irish people right off the language, was
> >based on the fond notion that many Irish people could speak it,
> >they just needed a bit of formal grammar to brush it up. Had they
> >been more realistic about Irish people's lack of knowledge of the
> >language they might have realised that to get it going they would
> >have to teach it from scratch in a conversational style.
> Your comments on teaching are many years out of date.
Oh yes, I'm well aware of that. I was just noting it as a classic
example of how not to keep a minority language alive. In particular,
I was noting it as an example of how being over-optimistic about the
real state of a language can be almost as damaging as deliberately
ignoring its existence.
> I suspect that there is no place in Ireland with a population of more
> than 100 where nobody speaks at least some Irish.
Sure, but this doesn't really tell us anything about the state of the
language as a mother tongue, rather than as a school subject.
> >Sure, there are plenty of people who pick it up as a hobby for cultural
> >reasons. But whether it can really be classed as a "living language"
> >when no-one's picking it up as a mother tongue is debatable. After
> >all, there were plenty of people in the past who were fluent in
> >Latin, long after Latin died as a mother tongue.
> Irish is my second language and is far more to me than a hobby. For
> many in my circle, including members of my extended family, it is a
> first and everyday language. Is that "living" enough?
Sure, but the real issue here is how many children are being taught it
in the informal mother-to-child way we all learnt to speak. I accept that
you will have far more real knowledge and experience of this than I have
(although I am aware of how language extinction works from my wife's
family - mother-in-law speaks fluent Konkani, though she says English
is her first language and rarely uses Konkani even with the older
generation, wife's understanding of it is limited to "I know enough to
know when they're talking about me"). I am just pointing out that
people's keenness for preserving minority languages - and I fully
understand why the Irish would want to preserve theirs and believe it would
be a tragedy if it died out as a mother tongue - can lead to wildly
over-optimistic statement about the real extent to which it is used
in a natural rather than a forced context.
Matthew Huntbach
Matthew M. Huntbach
> "Jonathan Jordan" <jonatha...@st-annes.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> >Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> wrote in message
>>>>I remember reading a survey done some years ago which found that
>>>>no-one in the Gaeltacht was actually bringing their childen up to
>>>>speak Irish as a first language.
>>> I never saw such a survey. I can tell you, from personal knowledge,
>>> that the finding is false. What is true is that the use of Irish is
>>> declining.
>>I have heard local people in Connemara, including people in their 20s at
>>the oldest, speaking in Irish amongst themselves.
> As have I. Young men seem more likely to do so than young women. I
> think that they are less concerned about appearing cool by speaking
> English.
This may explain the survey results I noted. The parents questioned
about it may have thought it was not "cool" (although I am sure they
would not have used this word, in either English or Irish) to admit to
bringing their children up in Irish. Well, I hope so, as I have said, I
found the report very pessimistic about the state of Irish as a mother
tongue, and was sorry if it had indeed reached that state.
> Gaeltacht people can be careless in their assumptions. I know several
> Irish-speaking women who have had fairly similar experiences -- that
> of having their merits discussed by the local lads who assumed,
> because they were visitors to the area, that they were not Irish
> speakers. It happened to a cousin of mine; when she told her mother
> about it, the mother was able to tell her that she had a similar
> experience thirty years previously.
I had heard a similar story about a couple of Irish girls discussing
a boy sitting opposite them on the train in Irish, this happening far
away from Ireland, so they really were confident neither he nor anyone
else in earshot would have a clue what they were saying. When he left
the train he gave them a cheery "Good-bye - nice to meet you" in Irish.
Well, that may have been a FOAF, but I guess such things are not
unusual amongst those who speak little-known languages. As I wrote
in this newsgroup a while ago, the last time I heard Welsh spoken was
amongst a family of tourists in Florida.
Matthew Huntbach
Padraig Breathnach
>Padraig Breathnach (padr...@iol.ie) wrote:
>> m...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew M. Huntbach) wrote:
>
>> >I remember reading a survey done some years ago which found that
>> >no-one in the Gaeltacht was actually bringing their childen up to
>> >speak Irish as a first language.
>
>> I never saw such a survey. I can tell you, from personal knowledge,
>> that the finding is false. What is true is that the use of Irish is
>> declining.
>
>It was in a serious journal of linguistics. Of course, the methodology
>may be suspect - it could be the case that people in the Gaeltacht
>who are bringing up their children to speak Irish as their first
>language feel shy about admitting this when questioned about it by
>outsiders.
>
It does not seem likely to me that many Irish people, Gaeltacht
residents or otherwise, who bring up their children as Irish speakers
would be shy about saying so. There is no obvious reason why they
should, although there is the possibility of eccentric responses in
all surveys. I suspect either more important methodological flaws or
faulty memory on your part.
>Please note, as I have to KEEP stating in this newsgroup, that
>noting a fact does not mean satisfaction with that fact's existence.
>
Did I write anything to prompt that?
>Personally I am a supporter of minority languages being kept alive,
>and read this rather pessimistic report about the state of Irish as
>a mother tongue language with sadness.
>
>> >The problem seems to be killing it with kindness - no-one wants to
>> >admit what a bad state it's in, so there's been a consistent
>> >tendency - and one can see it right from the start of the Irish
>> >Republic - to grossly overestimate the number of Irish speakers.
>> >The offputting grammatical way in which it was taught in schools,
>> >which served to put many Irish people right off the language, was
>> >based on the fond notion that many Irish people could speak it,
>> >they just needed a bit of formal grammar to brush it up. Had they
>> >been more realistic about Irish people's lack of knowledge of the
>> >language they might have realised that to get it going they would
>> >have to teach it from scratch in a conversational style.
>
>> Your comments on teaching are many years out of date.
>
>Oh yes, I'm well aware of that. I was just noting it as a classic
>example of how not to keep a minority language alive. In particular,
>I was noting it as an example of how being over-optimistic about the
>real state of a language can be almost as damaging as deliberately
>ignoring its existence.
>
>> I suspect that there is no place in Ireland with a population of more
>> than 100 where nobody speaks at least some Irish.
>
>Sure, but this doesn't really tell us anything about the state of the
>language as a mother tongue, rather than as a school subject.
>
My remarks followed on things you had said about the teaching of Irish
in schools.
>> >Sure, there are plenty of people who pick it up as a hobby for cultural
>> >reasons. But whether it can really be classed as a "living language"
>> >when no-one's picking it up as a mother tongue is debatable. After
>> >all, there were plenty of people in the past who were fluent in
>> >Latin, long after Latin died as a mother tongue.
>
>> Irish is my second language and is far more to me than a hobby. For
>> many in my circle, including members of my extended family, it is a
>> first and everyday language. Is that "living" enough?
>
>Sure, but the real issue here is how many children are being taught it
>in the informal mother-to-child way we all learnt to speak. I accept that
>you will have far more real knowledge and experience of this than I have
>(although I am aware of how language extinction works from my wife's
>family - mother-in-law speaks fluent Konkani, though she says English
>is her first language and rarely uses Konkani even with the older
>generation, wife's understanding of it is limited to "I know enough to
>know when they're talking about me"). I am just pointing out that
>people's keenness for preserving minority languages - and I fully
>understand why the Irish would want to preserve theirs and believe it would
>be a tragedy if it died out as a mother tongue - can lead to wildly
>over-optimistic statement about the real extent to which it is used
>in a natural rather than a forced context.
>
We optimists are disappointed more often than the pessimists.
Overestimates of things which are politically desired are common. It's
part of the way the political/administrative system works. The rest of
us tend to have a better grasp of how things really are.
PB
M.J.Powell
<chr...@gofree.indigo.ie> writes
Please come and visit us in Wales, Charles.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Padraig Breathnach
>Padraig Breathnach (padr...@iol.ie) wrote:
>> "Jonathan Jordan" <jonatha...@st-annes.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>> >Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> wrote in message
>> >> m...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew M. Huntbach) wrote:
>
>>>>>I remember reading a survey done some years ago which found that
>>>>>no-one in the Gaeltacht was actually bringing their childen up to
>>>>>speak Irish as a first language.
>
>>>> I never saw such a survey. I can tell you, from personal knowledge,
>>>> that the finding is false. What is true is that the use of Irish is
>>>> declining.
>
>>>I have heard local people in Connemara, including people in their 20s at
>>>the oldest, speaking in Irish amongst themselves.
>
>> As have I. Young men seem more likely to do so than young women. I
>> think that they are less concerned about appearing cool by speaking
>> English.
>
>This may explain the survey results I noted. The parents questioned
>about it may have thought it was not "cool" (although I am sure they
>would not have used this word, in either English or Irish) to admit to
>bringing their children up in Irish.
>
Come on, Matthew! There are probably better straws on which to clutch.
Adolescent girls tend to have different standards of coolness from
parents; the more different, the more cool.
My general experience of Gaeltacht families is that language is no big
deal to them. Some use Irish as their principal language; others
English. With very few exceptions, the children become fully fluent in
both languages.
Your choice of verb is interesting: you write of parents admitting to
bringing their children up in Irish. This has, for me at any rate, a
connotation of acknowledging guilt. One might admit to beating a
child, but admitting to educating a child well seems to be an odd way
of putting it.
Can we return to where this line of discussion started? You said that
you remember reading a survey done some years ago which found that
no-one in the Gaeltacht was actually bringing their children up to
speak Irish as a first language. I responded by telling you that the
finding was false; it is false because the existence of one exception
negates such an absolute claim, and I know of exceptions.
Is it possible that your memory of what you read is faulty?
PB