Etymology of "Gyp" / "gypped"
gyp
be from "gypsy", but I'm not sure. It'd be great (for me) if there was
some other equally convincing etymology, but I'm unable to find one.
Thanks for any help.
eromlignod
I assume you mean the verb form of "gyp". Around here it means to be
cheated and I very much associate it with Gypsies, which abound here in
Missouri. I wouldn't normally call a Gypsy a "Gyp", as the dictionary
gives for the noun meaning, but this may be a term in other regions.
The most common use in this area would be something like, "I got gypped
on my last car", meaning that I was cheated or got a bad deal. We also
say "I got took", or "screwed".
A similar slang verb, though slightly different in meaning, is "jew".
It would be used like, "I got jewed out of it", or "I jewed him down on
it". The former implies a swindle while the latter implies shrewd
negotiation of a price.
Don
Kansas City
Andrew Gwilliam
cf. "welsh"
--
Andrew Gwilliam
To email me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "silverhelm"
Matti Lamprhey
"gyp" <g...@dnac48.dabsol.co.uk> wrote...
This is an extract from a couple of recent mailings from Michael
Quinion's World Wide Words site:
http://www.worldwidewords.org/maillist/index.htm
8 Jan 2005
Q. My father-in-law often referred to something painful as "giving
me gyp". This does not seem to correlate to the other meaning of
"cheat". Any suggestions? [Joan Wilton, Canada]
A. "Gyp" is a moderately common expression, mainly in the UK, but
also in Commonwealth countries, though my gut feeling is that it's
now mostly used by older people. It appears in fixed phrases that
refer to some part of the body being painful, as in this example
from the London Evening Standard in August 2003: "I turned my ankle
in the game and it's still giving me gyp."
The other meaning you give has no connection - it's a derogatory
term that is usually said to derive from the word "gypsy" (see
http://quinion.com?G91P). The sense of pain seems to be connected
with a northern English dialect word, variously spelled "gip" or
"jip", that only ever appeared in the form "to give somebody or
something jip". It could mean to give a person or an object a sound
thrashing (one example is of a man giving a carpet a beating), or
generally to treat roughly or to cause pain.
We're not certain where it comes from, but the English Dialect
Dictionary gives one sense of the word as "to arouse to greater
exertions by means of some sudden, unexpected action". That fits
with the suggestion in the Oxford English Dictionary that it's a
contracted form of "gee-up", a conventionalised version of the cry
one utters to get a horse to move. Presumably the pain sense
evolved through the excessive use of that unexpected action in
persuading a person or animal to do one's bidding.
-----
12 Feb 2005
GYP You may remember the item in the newsletter of 8 January about
"gyp", in the sense of something that causes one pain ("My ankle is
giving me gyp"). I said then, correctly, that it was not connected
with gypsies, and especially not with the derogatory verb "to gyp",
to cheat or defraud, but came from English dialect. However, Chris
Colton e-mailed querying "gyppy", as in "gyppy tummy", a term for
diarrhoea. This does have the same origin as "gypsy" - a mangled
form of "Egyptian". "Gyppy tummy" is noted by Eric Partridge as
World War Two services slang for the ailment suffered by British
forces in the North African desert campaign, and it was a phrase
that was common in Britain after the War. Having recently returned
from Egypt with a case of it, I can attest to its power! It seems
certain that "gyppy" was influenced in its creation by the pain
sense of "gyp", but also built on "gyppy" or "gippy", a slang term
for an Egyptian that can be traced back to Lord Kitchener's army in
Egypt in the 1880s and 1890s.
---------------
Matti
eromlignod
We have the term "welsh" (though it is more commonly said "welch" here)
that has a slightly different meaning. To "welch" on a bet is to
renege on paying monies owed.
Don
Kansas City
Father Ignatius
news:1112709730.9...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> We have the term "welsh" (though it is more commonly said "welch"
here)
> that has a slightly different meaning. To "welch" on a bet is to
> renege on paying monies owed.
That is simply an obsolescent spelling of "Welsh"; for example Robert
Graves was in "the Welch Regiment" and, last time I heard, they still
used that spelling.
Father Ignatius
news:Xns962EC78F3AD05...@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
The COED says it's "C19: of unknown origina" which suggests that it is
not from "gypsy", or this would be known, and would presumably be of
much earlier origin.
An alternative meaning of "gyp" is "a college servant at the
universities of Cambridge and Durham", and suggests that this might be
from "gippo", which means "a menial kitchen servant", this word being
derived from the French _jupeau_, which means "a man's short tunic"
(modern French has _jupe_ = "skirt"). This meaning, I guess, would
match as closely as the "gypsy" theory to poor, mean, cheating sort of
person, who might cause one distress.
In some forms of CommonwelathE, such as ZimE and, I think, AusE and
KiwE, "gippo" is used in a related sense of cheating, e.g. "I gippoed a
repair on the motorbike", meaning an ad hoc fiddling around that
fortunately worked. I suspect that this might suggest a link to earlier
Army slang relating to "Gyppo" = "Egyptian", relating to the experience
of the various armies of the British Empire in the recent emergency.
I always saw "My back is giving me gip" written with this variant
spelling, which the COED merely acknowledges. Maybe it means, "Oh, my
aching back, you can't get good help nowadays" <ObSmiley>.
the Omrud
> "gyp" <g...@dnac48.dabsol.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:Xns962EC78F3AD05...@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
> > Does anyone have the etymology of gyp? From a bit of Googling it
> > seems to be from "gypsy", but I'm not sure. It'd be great (
> > for me) if there was
> > some other equally convincing etymology, but I'm unable to find one.
>
> The COED says it's "C19: of unknown origina" which suggests that it is
> not from "gypsy", or this would be known, and would presumably be of
> much earlier origin.
>
> An alternative meaning of "gyp" is "a college servant at the
> universities of Cambridge and Durham", and suggests that this might be
> from "gippo", which means "a menial kitchen servant", this word being
> derived from the French _jupeau_, which means "a man's short tunic"
> (modern French has _jupe_ = "skirt"). This meaning, I guess, would
> match as closely as the "gypsy" theory to poor, mean, cheating sort of
> person, who might cause one distress.
>
> In some forms of CommonwelathE, such as ZimE and, I think, AusE and
> KiwE, "gippo" is used in a related sense of cheating, e.g. "I gippoed a
> repair on the motorbike", meaning an ad hoc fiddling around that
> fortunately worked. I suspect that this might suggest a link to earlier
> Army slang relating to "Gyppo" = "Egyptian", relating to the experience
> of the various armies of the British Empire in the recent emergency.
"gippo" or "gyppo" is one of the UK regional variants (East Midlands)
of the term which has recently been generalised as "chav". Here in
the North West we have "scally"; "pikey" and "towny" are also known.
I had assumed that "gyppo" came from gypsy, but perhaps it goes back
further.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
the Omrud
It's spelled that way on the commemorative arch at Ypres - I was
worried until I checked that it really was a valid form.
Matti Lamprhey
> "eromlignod" <eroml...@aol.com> wrote...
>
> > We have the term "welsh" (though it is more commonly said "welch"
> > here) that has a slightly different meaning. To "welch" on a bet is
> > to renege on paying monies owed.
>
> That is simply an obsolescent spelling of "Welsh"; for example Robert
> Graves was in "the Welch Regiment" and, last time I heard, they still
> used that spelling.
Except that no-one has demonstrated an etymological connection between
"to welsh on a deal" and the Welsh or the Welch.
Matti
Father Ignatius
news:3bfrhtF...@individual.net...
> Except that no-one has demonstrated an etymological connection between
> "to welsh on a deal" and the Welsh or the Welch.
<blink> Is this really required?
CDB
"Matti Lamprhey" <ma...@official-totally-reversed.com> wrote in message
news:3bfrhtF...@individual.net...
Sociological connection, then. "Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a
thief..." CDB
Matti Lamprhey
> "Matti Lamprhey" <ma...@official-totally-reversed.com> wrote...
>
> > Except that no-one has demonstrated an etymological connection
> > between "to welsh on a deal" and the Welsh or the Welch.
>
> <blink> Is this really required?
You've snipped the bit where you implied that the "welch" in "to welch
on a bet" was an obsolescent spelling of "Welsh"; I'm saying that you
may not be correct in that.
(And you may perhaps have meant "obsolete" rather than "obsolescent",
but that's another storey.)
Matti
gyp
@news.ntlworld.com:
> "gippo" or "gyppo" is one of the UK regional variants (East Midlands)
> of the term which has recently been generalised as "chav". Here in
> the North West we have "scally"; "pikey" and "towny" are also known.
> I had assumed that "gyppo" came from gypsy, but perhaps it goes back
> further.
Gypsy should really be reserved for Roma Travellers. "Pikey" are
unrelated, and describes someone "travelling the turnpikes", but I got that
from a website that gives the "chav" etymology as the Romany Charva=child,
(that bit is true, but whethter there is a connection is questioned.)
These words are usually nasty words used by nasty people. A bit of
Googling shows that they're often used by racists in racist way. :-(
eromlignod
I'm sure it requires no more anthropological justification than
"jewing" or any other term based on a group stereotype.
I remember the Safeway chain of grocery stores in this area used to
carry their own label of cheap beer called "Scotch Buy", which came in
a green, tartan plaid can.
Don
Kansas City
the Omrud
> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote in news:MPG.1cbcc0a5159872d59897e3
> @news.ntlworld.com:
>
> > "gippo" or "gyppo" is one of the UK regional variants (East Midlands)
> > of the term which has recently been generalised as "chav". Here in
> > the North West we have "scally"; "pikey" and "towny" are also known.
> > I had assumed that "gyppo" came from gypsy, but perhaps it goes back
> > further.
>
> Gypsy should really be reserved for Roma Travellers.
Of course. But "should be" is not really relevant. We are talking
about usage.
> "Pikey" are
> unrelated, and describes someone "travelling the turnpikes", but I got that
> from a website that gives the "chav" etymology as the Romany Charva=child,
> (that bit is true, but whethter there is a connection is questioned.)
There may be a connection as "chav" is East End slang for "child" or
more accurately "little kid".
> These words are usually nasty words used by nasty people. A bit of
> Googling shows that they're often used by racists in racist way. :-(
That is true, but I don't indulge in value judgements here - I was
attempting some factual descriptions of usage. That doesn't mean
that I use or approve of these words.
Matti Lamprhey
> Matti Lamprhey wrote:
> > "Father Ignatius" <FatherI...@ANTISPAMananzi.co.za> wrote...
> > > "Matti Lamprhey" <ma...@official-totally-reversed.com> wrote...
> > >
> > > > Except that no-one has demonstrated an etymological connection
> > > > between "to welsh on a deal" and the Welsh or the Welch.
> > >
> > > <blink> Is this really required?
> >
> > You've snipped the bit where you implied that the "welch" in "to
> > welch on a bet" was an obsolescent spelling of "Welsh"; I'm saying
> > that you may not be correct in that.
> >
> > (And you may perhaps have meant "obsolete" rather than
> > "obsolescent", but that's another storey.)
>
> I'm sure it requires no more anthropological justification than
> "jewing" or any other term based on a group stereotype.
But AFAIK there is no "group stereotype" which has it that folk of the
Welsh inclination tend to slide out of deals, or anything similar. On
the contrary, the Welsh were particularly trusted as drovers and thereby
played an important part in originating Britain's banking institutions.
Matti
Areff
> "eromlignod" <eroml...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1112709730.9...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> renege on paying monies owed.
>
> That is simply an obsolescent spelling of "Welsh";
Uh-oh. Now you've gone and wook up Ron.
--
I repeat: Erk, this can't be!
Donna Richoux
AHD and M-W say the etymology of the verb "welsh" is unknown. Since the
word "Welsh" has very old Germanic roots, with the meaning of
"foreigner" or "stranger," maybe it picked up the idea of unpleasant
dealings with some other foreign group altogether, not those of
modern-day Wales. But then I see M-W dates the verb only as 1905, which
isn't going to get us back to Middle English, even. And if it was
borrowed from some other Germanic language in modern times, why wouldn't
they have been able to trace it...
Good catch, Matti. It's so easy to lump these together, gyp, jew, welsh,
but it's not fair if one is just a coincidental resemblance.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
rban...@shaw.ca
wrote:
>Good catch, Matti. It's so easy to lump these together, gyp, jew, welsh,
>but it's not fair if one is just a coincidental resemblance.
Chortle. If it came from anone else I might be persuaded that Fra
Iggy would pronounce that remark "ironic". It certainly has several
levels of ambiguity. All low ang lovely..
Father Ignatius
> "Father Ignatius" <FatherI...@ANTISPAMananzi.co.za> wrote...
> > "Matti Lamprhey" <ma...@official-totally-reversed.com> wrote...
> >
> > > Except that no-one has demonstrated an etymological connection
> > > between "to welsh on a deal" and the Welsh or the Welch.
> >
> > <blink> Is this really required?
>
> You've snipped the bit where you implied that the "welch" in "to welch
> on a bet" was an obsolescent spelling of "Welsh"; I'm saying that you
> may not be correct in that.
COED gives "welsh (also welch), v., (welsh on) fail to honour (a debt or
obligation)". So I'd say that whatever goes for welsh goes for welch,
and vice versa, and whatever goes for Welsh goes for Welch and vice
versa.
> (And you may perhaps have meant "obsolete" rather than "obsolescent",
> but that's another storey.)
What I wrote was informed by my doubt that the Welch Regiment still
exists. I'm not UTS on that stuff; they may have gone the way of the
Black Watch, for all I know. But, if they're still around, I'm
confident they're still steadfastly spelling it "Welch", and doubtless
the regimental histories, which are more definitely extant than the
regiment, do the same. But the "c" spelling has fallen away in other
contexts, so I believe "obsolescent" is korrekt.