shmatte, kasha, karnatzel

[Oliver Cromm]

This article had an astounding number of unexplained terms, mostly
Yiddish names of food:

<http://montrealgazette.com/life/food/snowdon-deli-turns-70-in-old-school-montreal-style-with-lineups-for-smoked-meat-party-sandwiches-and-yes-the-chopped-liver>

(Warning: incredibly long and badly organized article that is
essentially a plug. No idea why it got published in this form,
maybe someone owed someone.)

Some get explained eventually, as the karnatzel, which I had heard
before but forgotten, but I ended up checking shmatte, kasha and
holishke online, and I'm sure there were a few more that I still
don't understand. I guess the author is so familiar with all the
terms that he doesn't have a good feeling what needs explaining
and what doesn't, but that's why you have other people read your
text before publishing.

I still don't get this, though:

| ... But deli was essentially a fall-back position. They had
| originally wanted to go into the shmatte business – because
| everyone they knew seemed to be making a good living at that
| then.”

The Internet tells me "shmatte" means rags. So is this a
self-deprecating way of saying clothing business or textile
business, or were a lot of people really making a good living from
rags, as in old clothing, maybe for recycling?

--
The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose
from; furthermore, if you do not like any of them, you can just
wait for next year's model.
Andrew Tanenbaum, _Computer Networks_ (1981), p. 168.

[Don Phillipson]

"Oliver Cromm" <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote in message
news:1qd54aof...@mid.crommatograph.info...

> <http://montrealgazette.com/life/food/snowdon-deli-turns-70-in-old-school-montreal-style-with-lineups-for-smoked-meat-party-sandwiches-and-yes-the-chopped-liver>
>
> (Warning: incredibly long and badly organized article that is
> essentially a plug. No idea why it got published in this form,
> maybe someone owed someone.)

Well, its author Bill Brownstein has written for the Montreal
Gazette for 30-odd years. . . .

> I still don't get this, though:
>
> | ... But deli was essentially a fall-back position. They had

> | originally wanted to go into the shmatte business - because

> | everyone they knew seemed to be making a good living at that
> | then."
>
> The Internet tells me "shmatte" means rags. So is this a
> self-deprecating way of saying clothing business or textile
> business, or were a lot of people really making a good living from
> rags, as in old clothing, maybe for recycling?

Shmatte is standard Yiddish for "the rag trade," i.e. the garment
industry. These two sentences are clear. The founders of this
restaurant first planned (70 years ago) to go into the clothing
business because it was profitable for their friends.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Cheryl]

On 2016-06-29 1:43 PM, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> This article had an astounding number of unexplained terms, mostly
> Yiddish names of food:
>
> <http://montrealgazette.com/life/food/snowdon-deli-turns-70-in-old-school-montreal-style-with-lineups-for-smoked-meat-party-sandwiches-and-yes-the-chopped-liver>
>
> (Warning: incredibly long and badly organized article that is
> essentially a plug. No idea why it got published in this form,
> maybe someone owed someone.)
>
> Some get explained eventually, as the karnatzel, which I had heard
> before but forgotten, but I ended up checking shmatte, kasha and
> holishke online, and I'm sure there were a few more that I still
> don't understand. I guess the author is so familiar with all the
> terms that he doesn't have a good feeling what needs explaining
> and what doesn't, but that's why you have other people read your
> text before publishing.
>
> I still don't get this, though:
>
> | ... But deli was essentially a fall-back position. They had
> | originally wanted to go into the shmatte business – because
> | everyone they knew seemed to be making a good living at that
> | then.”
>
> The Internet tells me "shmatte" means rags. So is this a
> self-deprecating way of saying clothing business or textile
> business, or were a lot of people really making a good living from
> rags, as in old clothing, maybe for recycling?
>

Could be either.

In the past, there were people who bought and re-sold old clothes, with
the most tattered going for rags for industrial purposes, or perhaps to
make paper. I think charity shops that get clothing donated dispose of
the unusable clothing the same way.

--
Cheryl

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 12:13:58 -0400, Oliver Cromm
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>This article had an astounding number of unexplained terms, mostly
>Yiddish names of food:
>
><http://montrealgazette.com/life/food/snowdon-deli-turns-70-in-old-school-montreal-style-with-lineups-for-smoked-meat-party-sandwiches-and-yes-the-chopped-liver>
>
>(Warning: incredibly long and badly organized article that is
>essentially a plug. No idea why it got published in this form,
>maybe someone owed someone.)
>
>Some get explained eventually, as the karnatzel, which I had heard
>before but forgotten, but I ended up checking shmatte, kasha and
>holishke online, and I'm sure there were a few more that I still
>don't understand. I guess the author is so familiar with all the
>terms that he doesn't have a good feeling what needs explaining
>and what doesn't, but that's why you have other people read your
>text before publishing.
>
>I still don't get this, though:
>
>| ... But deli was essentially a fall-back position. They had
>| originally wanted to go into the shmatte business – because
>| everyone they knew seemed to be making a good living at that
>| then.”
>
>The Internet tells me "shmatte" means rags. So is this a
>self-deprecating way of saying clothing business or textile
>business, or were a lot of people really making a good living from
>rags, as in old clothing, maybe for recycling?

In both AmE and BrE "the rag trade" is an informal phrase for:

The clothing or fashion industry.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/rag-trade?q=rag+trade

OED:

1.
a. Trade in cloth rags or second-hand clothing.

1745 D. Soyer & J. Lockman tr. ‘Monsieur de Blainville’ Trav. III.
xxiv. 189 A particular Tax is laid upon the Jews at Rome... But
in return, their Brokerage and Rag Trade is very beneficial to
them.
1887 Jrnl. Royal Statist. Soc. 50 703 Resolutions in favour of
regulating the rag trade were passed; but the usual want of
practical information showed itself in sweeping proposals to
prohibit all imports of rags from infected countries.
1927 Bridgeport (Connecticut) Telegram 16 Sept. 4/5 There is a
slump in the business of the European Waste Material Merchants,
otherwise the rag trade.
2005 M. Vespeth Globaloney vii. 188 It does seem that the rag
trade offers people in third world countries a good opportunity to
earn an income if they sell used clothes.

b. colloq. (freq. ironic and humorous). The business of designing,
making, or selling clothes, esp. women's clothing. Cf. rag n.2 1c.

1890 A. Barrère & C. G. Leland Dict. Slang II. 167/2 Rag
trade,..the tailoring business. Also the mantle-making trade.
1907 Daily Chron. 31 Dec. 8/4 They do an enormous business with
the ‘rag trade’—that is to say, the wholesale drapers, silk
mercers, hosiers, and so on.
1957 J. Coates Ship of Glass 241, I know that line. It's going
to be fashionable... Forgive the digression but I'm in the rag
trade.
1983 T. Hoyle Last Gasp xvi. 207 He had the native New Yorker's
caustically laconic wit, honed to a fine art by a lifetime spent
as a cutter in the Manhattan rag trade.
2005 T. Hall Salaam Brick Lane i. 22 The old East End rag trade
still survived in the form of leather jacket shops and cheap
clothing wholesalers.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[the Omrud]

In the UK at least, the clothing industry used to be known as the "rag
trade".

I've always known the word /shmatte/, but I've never seen it written
down before. I would have spelled it with a u in the middle.

--
David

[Harrison Hill]

I agree. In Cockney it is pronounce "schmutter".

[musika]

It's usually spelt /schmutter/ in England.

--
Ray
UK

[Whiskers]

On 2016-06-29, Oliver Cromm <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> This article had an astounding number of unexplained terms, mostly
> Yiddish names of food:
>
> <http://montrealgazette.com/life/food/snowdon-deli-turns-70-in-old-school-montreal-style-with-lineups-for-smoked-meat-party-sandwiches-and-yes-the-chopped-liver>
>
> (Warning: incredibly long and badly organized article that is
> essentially a plug. No idea why it got published in this form, maybe
> someone owed someone.)
>
> Some get explained eventually, as the karnatzel, which I had heard
> before but forgotten, but I ended up checking shmatte, kasha and
> holishke online, and I'm sure there were a few more that I still don't
> understand. I guess the author is so familiar with all the terms that
> he doesn't have a good feeling what needs explaining and what doesn't,
> but that's why you have other people read your text before publishing.
>
> I still don't get this, though:
>
>| ... But deli was essentially a fall-back position. They had |
>originally wanted to go into the shmatte business – because | everyone
>they knew seemed to be making a good living at that | then.”
>
> The Internet tells me "shmatte" means rags. So is this a
> self-deprecating way of saying clothing business or textile business,
> or were a lot of people really making a good living from rags, as in
> old clothing, maybe for recycling?

The Yiddish tailors of London's East End used to call their trade goods
(bespoke suits and shirts etc) 'shmutter'. I say 'used to' as there
aren't many of them left. Their customers (the wide boys of The City)
took up the same term to describe their best clothing - even if it
didn't come from the said tailors.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Whiskers]

In the rag trade, 'shoddy' (noun) is cloth made from recycled or
inferior fibre. 'Shmutter' is finished garments or a person's costume.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 12:14:01 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:

> This article had an astounding number of unexplained terms, mostly
> Yiddish names of food:
>
> <http://montrealgazette.com/life/food/snowdon-deli-turns-70-in-old-school-montreal-style-with-lineups-for-smoked-meat-party-sandwiches-and-yes-the-chopped-liver>
>
> (Warning: incredibly long and badly organized article that is
> essentially a plug. No idea why it got published in this form,
> maybe someone owed someone.)
>
> Some get explained eventually, as the karnatzel, which I had heard
> before but forgotten, but I ended up checking shmatte, kasha and
> holishke online, and I'm sure there were a few more that I still
> don't understand. I guess the author is so familiar with all the
> terms that he doesn't have a good feeling what needs explaining
> and what doesn't, but that's why you have other people read your
> text before publishing.
>
> I still don't get this, though:
>
> | ... But deli was essentially a fall-back position. They had
> | originally wanted to go into the shmatte business – because
> | everyone they knew seemed to be making a good living at that
> | then.”
>
> The Internet tells me "shmatte" means rags. So is this a
> self-deprecating way of saying clothing business or textile
> business, or were a lot of people really making a good living from
> rags, as in old clothing, maybe for recycling?

The NYC garment industry was fondly known as the rag trade. Shmatta is Yinglish
for 'rag'. Hence "shmatta" as an affectionate term for _la plus haute couture_.

It's not unreasonable to suppose that Montreal's fabled thriving Jewish
community owed a great deal cuturally to New York's, but I don't know its
history at all.

Kasha is kasha. There's no other English word for it. ("Groats" may be in
there somewhere, but that's like saying "furze" is another word for "gorse.")

[Oliver Cromm]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 12:14:01 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:

> [...]

>> I still don't get this, though:
>>
>>| ... But deli was essentially a fall-back position. They had
>>| originally wanted to go into the shmatte business – because
>>| everyone they knew seemed to be making a good living at that
>>| then.”
>>
>> The Internet tells me "shmatte" means rags. So is this a
>> self-deprecating way of saying clothing business or textile
>> business, or were a lot of people really making a good living from
>> rags, as in old clothing, maybe for recycling?
>
> The NYC garment industry was fondly known as the rag trade. Shmatta is Yinglish
> for 'rag'. Hence "shmatta" as an affectionate term for _la plus haute couture_.

At least three people have already answered this, why do you
repeat it hours later?

> It's not unreasonable to suppose that Montreal's fabled thriving Jewish
> community owed a great deal cuturally to New York's, but I don't know its
> history at all.
>
> Kasha is kasha. There's no other English word for it. ("Groats" may be in
> there somewhere, but that's like saying "furze" is another word for "gorse.")

See "untranslatable words" - there may not be an English *word*
for it, but it can be explained in English. Explanations use words
like "groats" or "porridge". That gives me a general idea, and I
know it's not a fish or a vegetable.

Compare "tahini": I read this hundreds of times, until I finally
picked up a package of the stuff in a supermarket to read the
ingredient list. It's not considered to need an explanation here.
However, I haven't noticed "kasha" in the same 14 years in
Montreal. Not even when buying bagels or knishes.

The author of the article was completely right in his judgment
that "spanakopita" doesn't need an explanation, it's ubiquitous,
far beyond Greek eateries.

--
If Helen Keller is alone in the forest and falls down, does she
make a sound?

[Pavel Svinchnik]

In the early 1950's in Cleveland, Ohio, the Pepper-X man used to come around my grandparents' neighborhood in his horse-drawn wagon to buy old rags, newspapers, tin foil, or other types of scrap. He'd call out, "Paper! Rags!", but the words slurred into "pepper-rex", hence the common term for him.

Paul

[Oliver Cromm]

* the Omrud:

| Alternative Spellings
|
| shmatteh, shmattah, shmatte, shmatta, shmate, shmata, schmutter, schmatter

<http://www.jewish-languages.org/jewish-english-lexicon/words/477>

Possibly, all 48 variants of the regular expression
/sc?hm[au]tt?[ea][hr]?/ would be acceptable, and maybe others.

--
Are you sure your sanity chip is fully screwed in?
-- Kryten to Rimmer (Red Dwarf)

[Janet]

In article <51b26eb5-5582-4dc4...@googlegroups.com>,
pin...@jhmi.edu says...

>
> On Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 1:02:27 PM UTC-4, Cheryl P wrote:
> > On 2016-06-29 1:43 PM, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> > > This article had an astounding number of unexplained terms, mostly
> > > Yiddish names of food:
> > >
> > > <http://montrealgazette.com/life/food/snowdon-deli-turns-70-in-old-school-montreal-style-with-lineups-for-smoked-meat-party-sandwiches-and-yes-the-chopped-liver>
> > >
> > > (Warning: incredibly long and badly organized article that is
> > > essentially a plug. No idea why it got published in this form,
> > > maybe someone owed someone.)
> > >
> > > Some get explained eventually, as the karnatzel, which I had heard
> > > before but forgotten, but I ended up checking shmatte, kasha and
> > > holishke online, and I'm sure there were a few more that I still
> > > don't understand. I guess the author is so familiar with all the
> > > terms that he doesn't have a good feeling what needs explaining
> > > and what doesn't, but that's why you have other people read your
> > > text before publishing.
> > >
> > > I still don't get this, though:
> > >
> > > | ... But deli was essentially a fall-back position. They had

> > > | originally wanted to go into the shmatte business ? because

> > > | everyone they knew seemed to be making a good living at that

> > > | then.?

> > >
> > > The Internet tells me "shmatte" means rags. So is this a
> > > self-deprecating way of saying clothing business or textile
> > > business, or were a lot of people really making a good living from
> > > rags, as in old clothing, maybe for recycling?
> > >
> > Could be either.
> >
> > In the past, there were people who bought and re-sold old clothes, with
> > the most tattered going for rags for industrial purposes, or perhaps to
> > make paper. I think charity shops that get clothing donated dispose of
> > the unusable clothing the same way.
> >
> > --
> > Cheryl
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
> In the early 1950's in Cleveland, Ohio, the Pepper-X man used to come around my grandparents' neighborhood in his horse-drawn wagon to buy old rags, newspapers, tin foil, or other types of scrap. He'd call out, "Paper! Rags!", but the words slurred into "pepper-rex", hence the common term for him.

Around that time in urban England, we had rag and bone men. Ours drove
a horse and cart slowly round the neighbourhood shouting "Rag and bones,
rag and bones". AFAIK he didn't collect bones, and not just rags; any
kind of scrap metal and broken stuff. People, especially kids ran out
with bits of scrap or rags for which he gave us a couple of pennies. We
used to scavenge metal and foil bottle tops to trade with the rag and
bone man.

A different (motorised) truck did collect bones (from butcher shoips,
commercial kitchens etc). He used to come to our school kitchens and the
stench was awful.

Janet UK

[Mack A. Damia]

I remember the rag man, and I think I remember somebody coming around
fairly regularly to sell strong soap when we lived in Lancashire.

Also stone jugs of sarsaparilla.

[Janet]

In article <qndlhuan40os$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info>,
lispa...@crommatograph.info says...

>
> * Peter T. Daniels:
>
> > On Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 12:14:01 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> > [...]
> >> I still don't get this, though:
> >>
> >>| ... But deli was essentially a fall-back position. They had

> >>| originally wanted to go into the shmatte business ? because

> >>| everyone they knew seemed to be making a good living at that

> >>| then.?

> >>
> >> The Internet tells me "shmatte" means rags. So is this a
> >> self-deprecating way of saying clothing business or textile
> >> business, or were a lot of people really making a good living from
> >> rags, as in old clothing, maybe for recycling?
> >
> > The NYC garment industry was fondly known as the rag trade. Shmatta is Yinglish
> > for 'rag'. Hence "shmatta" as an affectionate term for _la plus haute couture_.
>
> At least three people have already answered this, why do you
> repeat it hours later?
>
> > It's not unreasonable to suppose that Montreal's fabled thriving Jewish
> > community owed a great deal cuturally to New York's, but I don't know its
> > history at all.
> >
> > Kasha is kasha. There's no other English word for it. ("Groats" may be in
> > there somewhere, but that's like saying "furze" is another word for "gorse.")
>
> See "untranslatable words" - there may not be an English *word*
> for it, but it can be explained in English. Explanations use words
> like "groats" or "porridge". That gives me a general idea, and I
> know it's not a fish or a vegetable.
>
> Compare "tahini": I read this hundreds of times, until I finally
> picked up a package of the stuff in a supermarket to read the
> ingredient list. It's not considered to need an explanation here.
> However, I haven't noticed "kasha" in the same 14 years in
> Montreal. Not even when buying bagels or knishes.

It's sold as "buckwheat" here.

Janet.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Janet:

That's a bit underdetermined. "Buckwheat" is also the direct
translation of "soba", but the latter usually comes in the form of
noodles.

--
Bug:
An elusive creature living in a program that makes it incorrect.
The activity of "debugging," or removing bugs from a program, ends
when people get tired of doing it, not when the bugs are removed.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 5:24:07 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 12:14:01 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:

> >> I still don't get this, though:
> >>| ... But deli was essentially a fall-back position. They had
> >>| originally wanted to go into the shmatte business – because
> >>| everyone they knew seemed to be making a good living at that
> >>| then.”
> >> The Internet tells me "shmatte" means rags. So is this a
> >> self-deprecating way of saying clothing business or textile
> >> business, or were a lot of people really making a good living from
> >> rags, as in old clothing, maybe for recycling?
> > The NYC garment industry was fondly known as the rag trade. Shmatta is Yinglish
> > for 'rag'. Hence "shmatta" as an affectionate term for _la plus haute couture_.
>
> At least three people have already answered this, why do you
> repeat it hours later?

Even if I had seen the other responses, I still would haev added the additional
information.

> > It's not unreasonable to suppose that Montreal's fabled thriving Jewish
> > community owed a great deal cuturally to New York's, but I don't know its
> > history at all.
> > Kasha is kasha. There's no other English word for it. ("Groats" may be in
> > there somewhere, but that's like saying "furze" is another word for "gorse.")
>
> See "untranslatable words" - there may not be an English *word*
> for it, but it can be explained in English. Explanations use words
> like "groats" or "porridge". That gives me a general idea, and I
> know it's not a fish or a vegetable.
>
> Compare "tahini": I read this hundreds of times, until I finally
> picked up a package of the stuff in a supermarket to read the
> ingredient list. It's not considered to need an explanation here.
> However, I haven't noticed "kasha" in the same 14 years in
> Montreal. Not even when buying bagels or knishes.

Kasha is in boxes, in the Jewish Foods aisle, near the pasta and cereal. Not
at the deli counter.

> The author of the article was completely right in his judgment
> that "spanakopita" doesn't need an explanation, it's ubiquitous,
> far beyond Greek eateries.

Does he suggest there's something Jewish about it?

"Far beyond Greek eateries" it's usually called "spinach pie."

[Peter T. Daniels]

The vowels are simply [a]-[@]. the BrE spelling with <u> is bizarre -- perhaps
another reflection of their inability to get their tongues around [a] (as in
"Barack" and "Las" Vegas).

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Jun-30 08:38, Janet wrote:

> Around that time in urban England, we had rag and bone men. Ours drove
> a horse and cart slowly round the neighbourhood shouting "Rag and bones,
> rag and bones". AFAIK he didn't collect bones, and not just rags; any
> kind of scrap metal and broken stuff. People, especially kids ran out
> with bits of scrap or rags for which he gave us a couple of pennies. We
> used to scavenge metal and foil bottle tops to trade with the rag and
> bone man.
>
> A different (motorised) truck did collect bones (from butcher shoips,
> commercial kitchens etc). He used to come to our school kitchens and the
> stench was awful.

Did you ever find out where the bones ended up?

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Jun-30 07:24, Oliver Cromm wrote:

> The author of the article was completely right in his judgment
> that "spanakopita" doesn't need an explanation, it's ubiquitous,
> far beyond Greek eateries.

Australia has a large Greek population, and we do have spinach pie, but
until I googled it just now I'd never heard of spanakopita.

That's at least twice in the past week that I've seen the word
"ubiquitous" used to describe something unfamiliar to me. We need a new
word "usabiquitous".

[Mark Brader]

Oliver Cromm:

> > The author of the article was completely right in his judgment
> > that "spanakopita" doesn't need an explanation, it's ubiquitous,
> > far beyond Greek eateries.

Peter Moylan:

> Australia has a large Greek population, and we do have spinach pie, but
> until I googled it just now I'd never heard of spanakopita.
>
> That's at least twice in the past week that I've seen the word
> "ubiquitous" used to describe something unfamiliar to me. We need a new
> word "usabiquitous".

"Usa"?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | Luckily, it's impossible to mispronounce "Canada"
m...@vex.net | even if you try. --Stan Brown

[Ross]

It has nothing to do with either of those examples. Your hostility
to BrE seems to becloud even your basic knowledge of phonetics.
<schmutter> rhymes with <butter>, and the vowel is [V], a short,
not-quite-low, central unrounded vowel. You can quibbulate all
night long about how close you think that is to Yiddish /a/, but
"bizarre" it is not.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 30/06/16 06:47, Mark Brader wrote:
> Oliver Cromm:
>>> The author of the article was completely right in his judgment
>>> that "spanakopita" doesn't need an explanation, it's ubiquitous,
>>> far beyond Greek eateries.
>
> Peter Moylan:
>> Australia has a large Greek population, and we do have spinach pie, but
>> until I googled it just now I'd never heard of spanakopita.
>>
>> That's at least twice in the past week that I've seen the word
>> "ubiquitous" used to describe something unfamiliar to me. We need a new
>> word "usabiquitous".
>
> "Usa"?

We need several new words:

"usabiquitous", "ozibiquitous", "eurobiquitous", "anglobiquitous", et
cetera, et cetera, [pause for dramatic effect] et cetera.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[RH Draney]

On 6/29/2016 11:12 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 30/06/16 06:47, Mark Brader wrote:
>> Oliver Cromm:
>>>

>>> That's at least twice in the past week that I've seen the word
>>> "ubiquitous" used to describe something unfamiliar to me. We need a new
>>> word "usabiquitous".
>>
>> "Usa"?
>
> We need several new words:
>
> "usabiquitous", "ozibiquitous", "eurobiquitous", "anglobiquitous", et
> cetera, et cetera, [pause for dramatic effect] et cetera.

We have an expression in alt.obituaries: "world-famous in Canada"...it
turns up when an effusive memorial is posted for someone nobody's ever
heard of....

A variant occurred a few years back when actor John Vernon passed
away...the first official notice came from a Canadian website where he
was said to be best known as the star of the TV show "Rojack"...nobody
outside Canada had ever heard of Rojack, and the rest of the world, when
they finally identified the name, instantly recognized him as Dean
Wormer in the movie "Animal House"....r

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

This summarises:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rag-and-bone_man

Bones ... could be used as knife handles, toys and ornaments, and
when treated, for chemistry. The grease extracted from them was also
useful for soap-making.


Footnotes

It had long been customary for rag-and-bone men to "purchase" items
from children with a small gift, but the Public Health Act 1936
stated that, as a defence against the spread of disease,
** rag-and-bone men could not give children under 14 "any article
** whatsoever". Goldfish, popular items for trade, were later declared
** not to be articles.

[Janet]

In article <c0jq47xr...@mid.crommatograph.info>,
lispa...@crommatograph.info says...

Soba noodles are made with flour ground from buckwheat (which is a
seed not a cereal grain).

pic of raw buckwheat

http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=262200986
&gclid=CIT8gNHCz80CFcO4Gwodx_wN7A&gclsrc=aw.ds

http://www.healthysupplies.co.uk/healthy-supplies-buckwheat-groats.html?
gclid=CJ3LtJLEz80CFcZAGwodnKIKgA

Janet

[Janet]

In article <nl2b76$d4e$2...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
says...

I never asked, but they still have umpteen commercial uses in human
food processing, fertiliser, glue, bone china, petfood etc.

Janet

[Peter T. Daniels]

But "shmatta" simply _doesn't_ have the "butter" vowel(s) in it. Like the
other two, it has the short [a] that Brits are constitutionally unable
to say, no matter how many decades (I think, of course, of the loathsomme Simon
Cowell and his sidekick, Piers Morgan) they've resided in the US.

[Ross]

You really ought to ease off on the TV, Peter. It's scrambling your brain.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 5:24:07 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>> On Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 12:14:01 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>
>>>> I still don't get this, though:
>>>>| ... But deli was essentially a fall-back position. They had
>>>>| originally wanted to go into the shmatte business – because
>>>>| everyone they knew seemed to be making a good living at that
>>>>| then.”
>>>> The Internet tells me "shmatte" means rags. So is this a
>>>> self-deprecating way of saying clothing business or textile
>>>> business, or were a lot of people really making a good living from
>>>> rags, as in old clothing, maybe for recycling?
>>> The NYC garment industry was fondly known as the rag trade. Shmatta is Yinglish
>>> for 'rag'. Hence "shmatta" as an affectionate term for _la plus haute couture_.
>>
>> At least three people have already answered this, why do you
>> repeat it hours later?
>
> Even if I had seen the other responses, I still would haev added the additional
> information.

You clearly slept during sarcasm 101.

>>> It's not unreasonable to suppose that Montreal's fabled thriving Jewish
>>> community owed a great deal cuturally to New York's, but I don't know its
>>> history at all.
>>> Kasha is kasha. There's no other English word for it. ("Groats" may be in
>>> there somewhere, but that's like saying "furze" is another word for "gorse.")
>>
>> See "untranslatable words" - there may not be an English *word*
>> for it, but it can be explained in English. Explanations use words
>> like "groats" or "porridge". That gives me a general idea, and I
>> know it's not a fish or a vegetable.
>>
>> Compare "tahini": I read this hundreds of times, until I finally
>> picked up a package of the stuff in a supermarket to read the
>> ingredient list. It's not considered to need an explanation here.
>> However, I haven't noticed "kasha" in the same 14 years in
>> Montreal. Not even when buying bagels or knishes.
>
> Kasha is in boxes, in the Jewish Foods aisle, near the pasta and cereal. Not
> at the deli counter.
>
>> The author of the article was completely right in his judgment
>> that "spanakopita" doesn't need an explanation, it's ubiquitous,
>> far beyond Greek eateries.
>
> Does he suggest there's something Jewish about it?

No, he explains its presence with the Greek co-owners, says that
the cooperation is good and that they have a few fusion dishes.

> "Far beyond Greek eateries" it's usually called "spinach pie."

Hopefully "Greek spinach pie", or it could be a rather different
thing. When I do a Google image search for "spinach pie", most of
what I see is not spanakopita.

--
In the old days, the complaints about the passing of the
golden age were much more sophisticated.
-- James Hogg in alt.usage.english

[LFS]

Shmutter rhymes with butter in BrE. I can say this confidently because I
am willing to bet that I am the only person posting in this thread for
whom it is an everyday word.

If your appreciation of British sitcoms extended far enough back you
would be aware of the classic example, "The Rag Trade"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rag_Trade

--
Laura (emulate St George for email)

[Oliver Cromm]

* Richard Heathfield:

> On 30/06/16 06:47, Mark Brader wrote:
>> Oliver Cromm:
>>>> The author of the article was completely right in his judgment
>>>> that "spanakopita" doesn't need an explanation, it's ubiquitous,
>>>> far beyond Greek eateries.
>>
>> Peter Moylan:
>>> Australia has a large Greek population, and we do have spinach pie, but
>>> until I googled it just now I'd never heard of spanakopita.
>>>
>>> That's at least twice in the past week that I've seen the word
>>> "ubiquitous" used to describe something unfamiliar to me. We need a new
>>> word "usabiquitous".
>>
>> "Usa"?
>
> We need several new words:
>
> "usabiquitous", "ozibiquitous", "eurobiquitous", "anglobiquitous", et
> cetera, et cetera, [pause for dramatic effect] et cetera.

"Quebequitous" sounds fun.

--
Manche Dinge sind vorgeschrieben, weil man sie braucht, andere
braucht man nur, weil sie vorgeschrieben sind.
-- Helmut Richter in de.etc.sprache.deutsch

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 14:33:39 +0100, LFS
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:

>Shmutter rhymes with butter in BrE. I can say this confidently because I
>am willing to bet that I am the only person posting in this thread for
>whom it is an everyday word.
>
>If your appreciation of British sitcoms extended far enough back you
>would be aware of the classic example, "The Rag Trade"
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rag_Trade

I didn't notice if the word "Shmutter" was used in the movie, but the
US movie "Save The Tiger" (1973) starring Jack Lemon was about the rag
trade.

In 1973 I was traveling quite a bit and spent many nights on the road.
I was never a bar person and usually spent evenings in my hotel room
reading or watching TV. I went out one night, though, and went to a
movie: "Save The Tiger".

Mixed feelings. Great movie and one of Lemon's best performances, but
my wife and I almost always like the same movie or TV show. While I
enjoyed the movie, I kept thinking how much my wife would like the
movie and felt bad about seeing it alone.

It was on in Orlando the next weekend and I went to see it
again...with my wife.



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 10:16:06 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 14:33:39 +0100, LFS
> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:

> >Shmutter rhymes with butter in BrE. I can say this confidently because I
> >am willing to bet that I am the only person posting in this thread for
> >whom it is an everyday word.
> >If your appreciation of British sitcoms extended far enough back you
> >would be aware of the classic example, "The Rag Trade"
> >
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rag_Trade

When was it broadcast in the US?

> I didn't notice if the word "Shmutter" was used in the movie, but the
> US movie "Save The Tiger" (1973) starring Jack Lemon was about the rag
> trade.

No, it wasn't, because it was set in the US.

Is that the Lemon that often costared with Mathau?

[Adam Funk]

On 2016-06-30, Oliver Cromm wrote:

> * Richard Heathfield:
>
>> On 30/06/16 06:47, Mark Brader wrote:
>>> Oliver Cromm:
>>>>> The author of the article was completely right in his judgment
>>>>> that "spanakopita" doesn't need an explanation, it's ubiquitous,
>>>>> far beyond Greek eateries.
>>>
>>> Peter Moylan:
>>>> Australia has a large Greek population, and we do have spinach pie, but
>>>> until I googled it just now I'd never heard of spanakopita.
>>>>
>>>> That's at least twice in the past week that I've seen the word
>>>> "ubiquitous" used to describe something unfamiliar to me. We need a new
>>>> word "usabiquitous".
>>>
>>> "Usa"?
>>
>> We need several new words:
>>
>> "usabiquitous", "ozibiquitous", "eurobiquitous", "anglobiquitous", et
>> cetera, et cetera, [pause for dramatic effect] et cetera.

iniquitous, outiquitous, etceteriquitous

> "Quebequitous" sounds fun.

+1


--
Slade was the coolest band in England. They were the kind of guys
that would push your car out of a ditch. --- Alice Cooper

[bill van]

In article <nl2mp...@news4.newsguy.com>,

Nobody *in* Canada has heard of Rojack either. I had to check Vernon on
IMDB to recall the series name: Wojeck, which debuted 50 years ago.
--
bill

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 07:50:32 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> I didn't notice if the word "Shmutter" was used in the movie, but the
>> US movie "Save The Tiger" (1973) starring Jack Lemon was about the rag
>> trade.
>
>No, it wasn't, because it was set in the US.

Why would you say something like that? There are numerous references
to "the rag trade" in the movie and the reviews of the movie.

or http://tinyurl.com/jxs3q34


https://books.google.com/books?id=dfCYZdLCVrQC&pg=SL16-PA111&lpg=SL16-PA111&dq=rag+trade+save+the+tiger&source=bl&ots=KgkNjVmTSS&sig=l8ZD2C2eCEHGjibIBixFs_scdaw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjuu4W4kNDNAhUM64MKHbNqB4cQ6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=rag%20trade%20save%20the%20tiger&f=false

and:

http://newyorklaborhistory.blogspot.com/2011/01/memories-of-rag-trade-in-save-tiger.html

It's even in the URL address.


And, from a review of the movie:

His character in 1973's Save The Tiger, Harry Stoner, is a self
confessed 'good citizen' who feels the world is changing for the
worse, has many scenes of just such mercurial moods. Harry longs for a
simpler, more honest time which he believes was his past when he was
an aspiring drummer and devotee of baseball. But he was also a GI,
Anzio cutting short his dreams of playing with a great big band
orchestra, and the flashbacks he suffers suggests perhaps that his
past is somehow rose tinted or selectively remembered. But when your
present consists of juggling the books for your ailing rag trade
business, hiring call girls to keep prospective buyers satisfied,
keeping the mob's claws out of your interests and arranging for one of
your factories to burn down, all in the space of a day and a
half....well, perhaps you need a bit of selective memory.

If you feel that the term is known in the US only from this movie,
then Google "rag trade NYC" or "rag trade LA:. It's a commonly used
and seen term on both coasts.


What in the world makes you think a term like this cannot cross the
Atlantic?

Get that cat out of your pocket and swing it in an arc that includes
information outside of your own extremely limited line of sight.

[the Omrud]

On 29/06/2016 23:38, Janet wrote:
> In article <51b26eb5-5582-4dc4...@googlegroups.com>,
> pin...@jhmi.edu says...
>

>> In the early 1950's in Cleveland, Ohio, the Pepper-X man used to come around my grandparents' neighborhood in his horse-drawn wagon to buy old rags, newspapers, tin foil, or other types of scrap. He'd call out, "Paper! Rags!", but the words slurred into "pepper-rex", hence the common term for him.
>
> Around that time in urban England, we had rag and bone men. Ours drove
> a horse and cart slowly round the neighbourhood shouting "Rag and bones,
> rag and bones". AFAIK he didn't collect bones, and not just rags; any
> kind of scrap metal and broken stuff. People, especially kids ran out
> with bits of scrap or rags for which he gave us a couple of pennies. We
> used to scavenge metal and foil bottle tops to trade with the rag and
> bone man.

We had one of those, around the end of the 50s. He shouted something
like "Rabone! Rabone!". Around our way they were known as "totters".

--
David

[Mark Brader]

R.H. Draney:

>> We have an expression in alt.obituaries: "world-famous in Canada"...it
>> turns up when an effusive memorial is posted for someone nobody's ever
>> heard of....

I like it.

>> A variant occurred a few years back when actor John Vernon passed
>> away...the first official notice came from a Canadian website where he
>> was said to be best known as the star of the TV show "Rojack"...nobody

>> outside Canada had ever heard of Rojack...

"Bill":

> Nobody *in* Canada has heard of Rojack either. I had to check Vernon on
> IMDB to recall the series name: Wojeck, which debuted 50 years ago.

Well, that's what you have to expect if you've been careless about reading
my signature quotes!
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "I may be ranting, but I'm right!"
m...@vex.net -- Wojeck: Out of the Fire

[Tak To]

That finally got Jack Lemon his Oscar for Best Actor, after losing
to Maximilian Schell (/Judgment at Nuremberg/) in 1961[1] (/The
Apartment/). He had one for Best Supporting Actor years ago in
/Mister Roberts/.

[1] What a year! The nominees included Spencer Tracy (also
/Judgment at Nuremberg/) and Paul Newman (/The Hustler/), who
finally got his in 1987 for /The Color of Money/, which, not
quite incidentally, was a sequel to /The Hustler/.

Another story about the rag trade with a helluva performance by an
aging actor -- the first arc (5 episodes) of the Season 2 of
/Wiseguy/ (1988?) starring Jerry Lewis. It was arguably his last
great performance. Ron Silver and Stanley Tucci were there too.

Available on Amazon On-Demand.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[Jerry Friedman]

A word that, because of my limited knowledge of Britain culture, can
remind me of only one thing.

"To totters and toffs—-in a levelish ratio—-
My darling K offers her five-quid fellatio."

https://books.google.com/books?id=4GLF1Kcz7uEC&pg=PT66&lpg=PT66

--
Jerry Friedman
"No Trump" bridge-themed political shirts: cafepress.com/jerrysdesigns
Bumper stickers ditto: cafepress/jerrysstickers

[Jerry Friedman]

On 6/29/16 3:26 PM, Pavel Svinchnik wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 1:02:27 PM UTC-4, Cheryl P wrote:
...

>> In the past, there were people who bought and re-sold old clothes, with
>> the most tattered going for rags for industrial purposes, or perhaps to
>> make paper. I think charity shops that get clothing donated dispose of
>> the unusable clothing the same way.
>>

>> --
>> Cheryl
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus

>
> In the early 1950's in Cleveland, Ohio, the Pepper-X man used to come around my grandparents' neighborhood in his horse-drawn wagon to buy old rags, newspapers, tin foil, or other types of scrap. He'd call out, "Paper! Rags!", but the words slurred into "pepper-rex", hence the common term for him.

Just curious--what neighborhood was that?

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 19:18:36 +0100, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
wrote:

"totter" from the verb "tot":

Origin
Late 19th century: from slang tot 'bone', of unknown origin.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tot#tot-3

[Oliver Cromm]

* bill van:

Oh, that one - the original Quincy, ME.

--
WinErr 008: Erroneous error. Nothing is wrong.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 12:23:55 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 07:50:32 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> I didn't notice if the word "Shmutter" was used in the movie, but the
> >> US movie "Save The Tiger" (1973) starring Jack Lemon was about the rag
> >> trade.
> >
> >No, it wasn't, because it was set in the US.
>
> Why would you say something like that? There are numerous references
> to "the rag trade" in the movie and the reviews of the movie.

We are not talking about the phrase "the rag trade." We are talking about your
Angloölatrous misspelling of "shmatta" (or whichever spelling is preferred)
that incorporates the BrE distortion of the sound of the first vowel that makes
it rhyme with "butter" instead of "blotter" with [a].

If you could actually comprehend what you read, you would have observed that
I introduced the terms "rag trade" and "NYC garment industry" in my very first
posting in this subthread.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 15:00:09 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

I suggest you give some study to avoiding the ambiguous pronoun
references. Most sources on this subject will cover how "it" is to be
treated.

[Peter T. Daniels]

There was no reason whatsoever to state that a movie with a star whose name you
don't know "was about the rag trade."

[Mark Brader]

Tony Cooper:
> > "Save The Tiger"... Great movie and one of Lemon's best performances...

Tak To:
> That finally got Jack Lemon his Oscar for Best Actor...

Lemmon.
--
Mark Brader "Poor spelling does not prove poor knowledge,
Toronto but is fatal to the argument by intimidation."
m...@vex.net -- Gene Ward Smith

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 18:19:09 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Tony Cooper:
>> > "Save The Tiger"... Great movie and one of Lemon's best performances...
>
>Tak To:
>> That finally got Jack Lemon his Oscar for Best Actor...
>
>Lemmon.

See my note in another post. You've violated my rule.

[Robert Bannister]

On 1/07/2016 3:07 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 6/30/16 12:18 PM, the Omrud wrote:
>> On 29/06/2016 23:38, Janet wrote:
>>> In article <51b26eb5-5582-4dc4...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> pin...@jhmi.edu says...
>>>
>>>> In the early 1950's in Cleveland, Ohio, the Pepper-X man used to come
>>>> around my grandparents' neighborhood in his horse-drawn wagon to buy
>>>> old rags, newspapers, tin foil, or other types of scrap. He'd call
>>>> out, "Paper! Rags!", but the words slurred into "pepper-rex", hence
>>>> the common term for him.
>>>
>>> Around that time in urban England, we had rag and bone men. Ours drove
>>> a horse and cart slowly round the neighbourhood shouting "Rag and bones,
>>> rag and bones". AFAIK he didn't collect bones, and not just rags; any
>>> kind of scrap metal and broken stuff. People, especially kids ran out
>>> with bits of scrap or rags for which he gave us a couple of pennies. We
>>> used to scavenge metal and foil bottle tops to trade with the rag and
>>> bone man.
>>
>> We had one of those, around the end of the 50s. He shouted something
>> like "Rabone! Rabone!". Around our way they were known as "totters".
>
> A word that, because of my limited knowledge of Britain culture, can
> remind me of only one thing.
>
> "To totters and toffs—-in a levelish ratio—-
> My darling K offers her five-quid fellatio."

You just can't beat a bit of culture.

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Robert Bannister]

On 30/06/2016 10:42 AM, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> * Janet:
>
>> In article <qndlhuan40os$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info>,
>> lispa...@crommatograph.info says...
>>>
>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>>

>>>> On Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 12:14:01 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>>>> [...]

>>>>> I still don't get this, though:
>>>>>
>>>>> | ... But deli was essentially a fall-back position. They had

>>>>> | originally wanted to go into the shmatte business ? because

>>>>> | everyone they knew seemed to be making a good living at that

>>>>> | then.?

>>>>>
>>>>> The Internet tells me "shmatte" means rags. So is this a
>>>>> self-deprecating way of saying clothing business or textile
>>>>> business, or were a lot of people really making a good living from
>>>>> rags, as in old clothing, maybe for recycling?
>>>>

>>>> The NYC garment industry was fondly known as the rag trade. Shmatta is Yinglish
>>>> for 'rag'. Hence "shmatta" as an affectionate term for _la plus haute couture_.
>>>
>>> At least three people have already answered this, why do you
>>> repeat it hours later?
>>>

>>>> It's not unreasonable to suppose that Montreal's fabled thriving Jewish
>>>> community owed a great deal cuturally to New York's, but I don't know its
>>>> history at all.
>>>>
>>>> Kasha is kasha. There's no other English word for it. ("Groats" may be in
>>>> there somewhere, but that's like saying "furze" is another word for "gorse.")
>>>
>>> See "untranslatable words" - there may not be an English *word*
>>> for it, but it can be explained in English. Explanations use words
>>> like "groats" or "porridge". That gives me a general idea, and I
>>> know it's not a fish or a vegetable.
>>>
>>> Compare "tahini": I read this hundreds of times, until I finally
>>> picked up a package of the stuff in a supermarket to read the
>>> ingredient list. It's not considered to need an explanation here.
>>> However, I haven't noticed "kasha" in the same 14 years in
>>> Montreal. Not even when buying bagels or knishes.
>>

>> It's sold as "buckwheat" here.
>
> That's a bit underdetermined. "Buckwheat" is also the direct
> translation of "soba", but the latter usually comes in the form of
> noodles.
>

I thought buckwheat was the same as bulgur or borgol, but apparently
not, although you can make kasha with borgol. So now I don't know what
buckwheat is.

[Robert Bannister]

On 30/06/2016 1:43 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 2016-Jun-30 07:24, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>
>> The author of the article was completely right in his judgment
>> that "spanakopita" doesn't need an explanation, it's ubiquitous,
>> far beyond Greek eateries.
>

> Australia has a large Greek population, and we do have spinach pie, but
> until I googled it just now I'd never heard of spanakopita.
>

> That's at least twice in the past week that I've seen the word
> "ubiquitous" used to describe something unfamiliar to me. We need a new
> word "usabiquitous".
>

It looks as though spanakopita is the traditional Turkish dish börek,
known throughout the Balkans as burek or borek.

[Pavel Svinchnik]

Northern Collinwood on the far east side of Cleveland; around East 152nd. Street and Grovewood Avenue.

Paul

[Charles Bishop]

In article <dtm22a...@mid.individual.net>,
Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

[snip]

>
> I thought buckwheat was the same as bulgur or borgol, but apparently
> not, although you can make kasha with borgol. So now I don't know what
> buckwheat is.

The name of a character in The Little Rascals?

--
charles

[Mark Brader]

Tony Cooper:
>>>> "Save The Tiger"... Great movie and one of Lemon's best performances...

Tak To:
>>> That finally got Jack Lemon his Oscar for Best Actor...

Mark Brader:
>> Lemmon.

Tony Cooper:

> See my note in another post.

That'd be this one:

| Note to Mark: See? Typos/thinkos must be treated with wordplay if
| they do not mislead.

It did appear to mislead Tak, which is why I stepped in at that point.
--
Mark Brader | "...'consulted' the public, using 'consulted' with
Toronto | the special meaning of 'told them what I think'."
m...@vex.net | --Cheryl Perkins

[RH Draney]

A couple of years ago I had bought a packet of "Mighty Tasty Hot Cereal"
at a discount store, and in trying to find another packet of the same
when the first ran out, couldn't find the product anywhere, even among
other products from the same food company...finally I had someone in the
store look it up in the inventory book to see if they could
special-order it for me, and the listing there described it as
"gluten-free", and sure enough there it was in the special glutenphobic
section of the store....

I was sure that what I'd been eating couldn't have been gluten-free,
since it had buckwheat listed right on the label as one of the
ingredients, and I'd been led to believe that anything made from wheat
had by its very nature to contain gluten...but sure enough, there it
was, with a big "gluten-free" blaze right on the label that I'd missed
on the first packet because someone had put a price sticker over it....

It was this experience that led me to the discovery that buck"wheat"
isn't actually wheat, making it a member of that class of agricultural
products whose names strongly imply something that isn't true, alongside
water"melon" and straw"berry"....r

[Richard Bollard]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 15:43:14 +1000, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 2016-Jun-30 07:24, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>
>> The author of the article was completely right in his judgment
>> that "spanakopita" doesn't need an explanation, it's ubiquitous,
>> far beyond Greek eateries.
>
>Australia has a large Greek population, and we do have spinach pie, but
>until I googled it just now I'd never heard of spanakopita.
>
>That's at least twice in the past week that I've seen the word
>"ubiquitous" used to describe something unfamiliar to me. We need a new
>word "usabiquitous".

Our experiences differ because I have known and used "spanakopita"
since the 1970s.

I had some today for lunch, leftover from a pie I made on Sunday. Next
time I'm going to experiment by adding toasted pine nuts.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

[Katy Jennison]

Ours was a sort of consonant-free howl, which we were led to believe
derived from "Any old iron?"

--
Katy Jennison

[Richard Heathfield]

On 01/07/16 02:23, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 18:19:09 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>
>> Tony Cooper:
>>>> "Save The Tiger"... Great movie and one of Lemon's best performances...
>>
>> Tak To:
>>> That finally got Jack Lemon his Oscar for Best Actor...
>>
>> Lemmon.
>
> See my note in another post. You've violated my rule.

See my reply in another post. And, in any case, it's someone's *name*.
Let's try to have the common courtesy to spell people's names correctly.
That's /my/ rule (and you are, of course, free to violate it, just as
Mark is free to violate yours).

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Adam Funk]

On 2016-07-01, RH Draney wrote:

> It was this experience that led me to the discovery that buck"wheat"
> isn't actually wheat, making it a member of that class of agricultural
> products whose names strongly imply something that isn't true, alongside
> water"melon" and straw"berry"....r

You can use it for a lot of wheat purposes, though --- like "wild
rice".


--
You're a brave man. Go and break through the lines. And remember,
while you're out there risking your life and limb through shot and
shell, we'll be in be in here thinking what a sucker you are.
--- President Rufus T Firefly

[Adam Funk]

On 2016-07-01, RH Draney wrote:

> It was this experience that led me to the discovery that buck"wheat"
> isn't actually wheat, making it a member of that class of agricultural
> products whose names strongly imply something that isn't true, alongside
> water"melon" and straw"berry"....r

What's your definition of "melon"? Wikipedia says:

A melon is any of various plants of the family Cucurbitaceae with
edible, fleshy fruit.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melon>

Watermelon is in that family.


--
There’s never enough time to do all the nothing you want.
--- Calvin

[Ross]

On Friday, July 1, 2016 at 10:00:09 PM UTC+12, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2016-07-01, RH Draney wrote:
>
> > It was this experience that led me to the discovery that buck"wheat"
> > isn't actually wheat, making it a member of that class of agricultural
> > products whose names strongly imply something that isn't true, alongside
> > water"melon" and straw"berry"....r
>
> What's your definition of "melon"? Wikipedia says:
>
> A melon is any of various plants of the family Cucurbitaceae with
> edible, fleshy fruit.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melon>
>
> Watermelon is in that family.
>

We passed through this melon patch about 2 years ago. To summarize:

The Wiki article lists four different genera of melons within
the family Cucurbitaceae: Benincasa, Citrullus, Cucumis and
Momordica. The watermelon is Citrullus lanatus.
The other three types of melon mentioned in the earlier discussion
are all cultivars of the muskmelon (Cucumis melo). So the watermelon
is in a different genus from the other most familiar types of melon.
On the other hand, as RHD pointed out, cucumbers are also in the
genus Cucumis.
Some would conclude from this that a watermelon is not really a melon
(and maybe cucumbers are?).
I would rather say we're dealing with another case where food
categories don't line up neatly with the botanical ones. The list
of genera is not a definition of "melon". It's just information about the botanical classification of those plants whose fruits are called "melons".

[Mack A. Damia]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 21:30:13 -0700, RH Draney <dado...@cox.net>
wrote:

The police chief's son in our small town when I was a kid was
nicknamed "Buckwheat", and he got the name in first or second grade.

He kept it all the way through grade and high school; some of the
teachers referred to him by that name - and so did his father who was
also a Midget Little League coach. Although Buckwheat wasn't the
best, he would always get put in as first string playing center on the
football team. Buckwheat wasn't much of a fighter, either. Poor guy
put up with a lot of bullying, and he would often get pounded in the
locker room. I heard once that some guys had rubbed analgesic in his
jock strap.

[RH Draney]

On 7/1/2016 3:56 AM, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>
>> On 6/30/2016 8:25 PM, Charles Bishop wrote:
>>> In article <dtm22a...@mid.individual.net>,
>>> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I thought buckwheat was the same as bulgur or borgol, but apparently
>>>> not, although you can make kasha with borgol. So now I don't know what
>>>> buckwheat is.
>>>
>>> The name of a character in The Little Rascals?
>

> The police chief's son in our small town when I was a kid was
> nicknamed "Buckwheat", and he got the name in first or second grade.

The "Buckwheat" character in Our Gang (they weren't called the Little
Rascals until the films were repackaged for television in the 1950s)
replaced an earlier character named "Farina", who was originally
portrayed as a little girl until Allen Hoskins got old enough that
everyone could tell he was a boy...the custom of giving the kids
"cereal" names was also applied to Carl Switzer, who became "Alfalfa"....

A little girl who accompanied Farina in two films was given the
character name "Pleurisy"...nobody has been able to find out anything
else about the young actress, including her real name....r

[Janet]

In article <dtm22a...@mid.individual.net>, rob...@clubtelco.com
says...

wiki is your friend

"Buckwheat (Fagopyrum esculentum) is a plant cultivated for its grain-
like seeds, and also used as a cover crop. <..>
Despite the name, buckwheat is not related to wheat, as it is not a
grass. Instead, buckwheat is related to sorrel, knotweed, and rhubarb. "



Janet.

[Cheryl]

Years ago I bought some buckwheat to experiment with, and made pancakes
that I really liked. I haven't done so since, because for a long time
buckwheat was very difficult to find, and then I forgot about it. Maybe
I should look again; unusual foods have become much more widely
available over the years.

[Janet]

In article <nl4uif$fa0$1...@news.albasani.net>, ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com
says...

It was in the days when street newsvendors still used to shout the
headlines of their wares, incomprehensibly.

Janet.

[Adam Funk]

On 2016-07-01, RH Draney wrote:

> On 7/1/2016 3:56 AM, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/30/2016 8:25 PM, Charles Bishop wrote:
>>>> In article <dtm22a...@mid.individual.net>,
>>>> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought buckwheat was the same as bulgur or borgol, but apparently
>>>>> not, although you can make kasha with borgol. So now I don't know what
>>>>> buckwheat is.
>>>>
>>>> The name of a character in The Little Rascals?
>>
>> The police chief's son in our small town when I was a kid was
>> nicknamed "Buckwheat", and he got the name in first or second grade.
>
> The "Buckwheat" character in Our Gang (they weren't called the Little
> Rascals until the films were repackaged for television in the 1950s)
> replaced an earlier character named "Farina", who was originally
> portrayed as a little girl until Allen Hoskins got old enough that
> everyone could tell he was a boy...the custom of giving the kids
> "cereal" names was also applied to Carl Switzer, who became "Alfalfa"....

I don't think there was ever a "Cornflake", though.


--
A lot of people never use their intiative because no-one
told them to. --- Banksy

[charles]

In article <MPG.31e06a2...@news.individual.net>, Janet

A few years ago - in December I heard a market trader shouting "Get your
sannarats here". She was selling "Santa Hats"

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

[Jerry Friedman]

Thanks. Times have changed.

[Jerry Friedman]

And to finish that off, what I mean by "kasha" is hulled, roasted
buckwheat seeds. They can be cooked in water with the flavorings of
your choice in five minutes or so. Mm.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 1 Jul 2016 07:31:02 +0100, Richard Heathfield
<r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

>On 01/07/16 02:23, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 18:19:09 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>>
>>> Tony Cooper:
>>>>> "Save The Tiger"... Great movie and one of Lemon's best performances...
>>>
>>> Tak To:
>>>> That finally got Jack Lemon his Oscar for Best Actor...
>>>
>>> Lemmon.
>>
>> See my note in another post. You've violated my rule.
>
>See my reply in another post. And, in any case, it's someone's *name*.
>Let's try to have the common courtesy to spell people's names correctly.
>That's /my/ rule (and you are, of course, free to violate it, just as
>Mark is free to violate yours).

You may have misheard my comment. Sometime, when I type with my
tongue in cheek, the words are slurred.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <nl52n6$9i6$2...@dont-email.me>,

Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

> On 01/07/16 02:23, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 18:19:09 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
> >
> >> Tony Cooper:
> >>>> "Save The Tiger"... Great movie and one of Lemon's best performances...
> >>
> >> Tak To:
> >>> That finally got Jack Lemon his Oscar for Best Actor...
> >>
> >> Lemmon.
> >
> > See my note in another post. You've violated my rule.
>
> See my reply in another post. And, in any case, it's someone's *name*.
> Let's try to have the common courtesy to spell people's names correctly.
> That's /my/ rule (and you are, of course, free to violate it, just as
> Mark is free to violate yours).

Well sure, but it's just as easy to typo a name as any other word, I
think. PTD tried to claim that Tony didn't know about the actor because
he left out a letter from his name, but this was just something else to
use in his "feud" with Tony, much the same as Tony does for PTD.

I think the general rule is that typos don't prove a case one way or the
other.

--
charles, checked for typos, yes I did

[Richard Heathfield]

Echoes of the Morecambe and Wise sketch, "Morny Stannit". I wanted to
include a Youtube link, but I couldn't find one that hadn't been removed
on copyright grounds (which is fair enough).

The sketch has been discussed here before, in 2008, but Google Groups is
being characteristically shy about letting me see that discussion.

[Jerry Friedman]

On 6/30/16 8:06 PM, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 1/07/2016 3:07 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On 6/30/16 12:18 PM, the Omrud wrote:

[rag-and-bone men]

>>> We had one of those, around the end of the 50s. He shouted something
>>> like "Rabone! Rabone!". Around our way they were known as "totters".
>>
>> A word that, because of my limited knowledge of Britain culture, can
>> remind me of only one thing.
>>
>> "To totters and toffs—-in a levelish ratio—-
>> My darling K offers her five-quid fellatio."
>
> You just can't beat a bit of culture.

That's Catullus, that is. You can't get no more cultured than that.

--
Jerry Friedman must lie down where all the ladders start.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 01/07/16 15:05, Tony Cooper wrote:
> Sometime, when I type with my tongue in cheek,

That has /got/ to hurt.

[Adam Funk]

Hold the bus, that wouldn't rhyme in Latin: "ratione" (almost
certainly ablative) vs "fellationem" (accusative).


--
Physics is like sex. Sure, it may give some practical results, but
that's not why we do it. --- Richard Feynman

[Adam Funk]

On 2016-07-01, Ross wrote:

> On Friday, July 1, 2016 at 10:00:09 PM UTC+12, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2016-07-01, RH Draney wrote:
>>
>> > It was this experience that led me to the discovery that buck"wheat"
>> > isn't actually wheat, making it a member of that class of agricultural
>> > products whose names strongly imply something that isn't true, alongside
>> > water"melon" and straw"berry"....r
>>
>> What's your definition of "melon"? Wikipedia says:
>>
>> A melon is any of various plants of the family Cucurbitaceae with
>> edible, fleshy fruit.
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melon>
>>
>> Watermelon is in that family.
>>
>
> We passed through this melon patch about 2 years ago. To summarize:

Well, through this patch of something!

> The Wiki article lists four different genera of melons within
> the family Cucurbitaceae: Benincasa, Citrullus, Cucumis and
> Momordica. The watermelon is Citrullus lanatus.
> The other three types of melon mentioned in the earlier discussion
> are all cultivars of the muskmelon (Cucumis melo). So the watermelon
> is in a different genus from the other most familiar types of melon.
> On the other hand, as RHD pointed out, cucumbers are also in the
> genus Cucumis.
> Some would conclude from this that a watermelon is not really a melon
> (and maybe cucumbers are?).

I guess it all hangs on the degree of fleshiness.

> I would rather say we're dealing with another case where food
> categories don't line up neatly with the botanical ones. The list of
> genera is not a definition of "melon". It's just information about
> the botanical classification of those plants whose fruits are called
> "melons".

I can't argue with that.

--
You're the last hope for vaudeville.
--- Groucho Marx to Alice Cooper

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, July 1, 2016 at 10:09:43 AM UTC-4, Charles Bishop wrote:
> In article <nl52n6$9i6$2...@dont-email.me>,
> Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > On 01/07/16 02:23, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > > On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 18:19:09 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
> > >
> > >> Tony Cooper:
> > >>>> "Save The Tiger"... Great movie and one of Lemon's best performances...
> > >>
> > >> Tak To:
> > >>> That finally got Jack Lemon his Oscar for Best Actor...
> > >>
> > >> Lemmon.
> > >
> > > See my note in another post. You've violated my rule.
> >
> > See my reply in another post. And, in any case, it's someone's *name*.
> > Let's try to have the common courtesy to spell people's names correctly.
> > That's /my/ rule (and you are, of course, free to violate it, just as
> > Mark is free to violate yours).
>
> Well sure, but it's just as easy to typo a name as any other word, I
> think. PTD tried to claim that Tony didn't know about the actor because
> he left out a letter from his name, but this was just something else to
> use in his "feud" with Tony, much the same as Tony does for PTD.

For chrissake. How could you "think" anything at all about any "claim" of mine,
given that no one has quoted it? My "comment" was:

Is that the one that costared with Mathau a lot?

which perfectly fits Tony Cooper's criterion for noting a spelling mistake (not
a typo, since he did it again hours later).

I have insufficient data for assessing Tak To's misspelling.

> I think the general rule is that typos don't prove a case one way or the
> other.

A "case" of what? At least you seem to have grown from passive-aggressive to
active-aggressive, inventing new slurs of your very own.

[CDB]

On 01/07/2016 10:34 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> Robert Bannister wrote:

>>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> the Omrud wrote:

>> [rag-and-bone men]

>>>>> We had one of those, around the end of the 50s. He shouted
>>>>> something like "Rabone! Rabone!". Around our way they were
>>>>> known as "totters".

>>>> A word that, because of my limited knowledge of Britain
>>>> culture, can remind me of only one thing.

>>>> "To totters and toffs—-in a levelish ratio—- My darling K
>>>> offers her five-quid fellatio."

>>> You just can't beat a bit of culture.

>> That's Catullus, that is. You can't get no more cultured than
>> that.

> Hold the bus, that wouldn't rhyme in Latin: "ratione" (almost
> certainly ablative) vs "fellationem" (accusative).

Meh, "Servos et quirites, aequa ratione,/ glubit magnanimos fellatione."

It's got one of those slippery [i-j] exchanges*, and I don't claim that
a Roman would recognise the metre.

*I would be interested to hear whether that has been identified in Peter
TD's MS as a rule propounded by an ancient grammarian or merely
something observed to have happened. In the latter case, I would be
inclined to consider it a kind of poetic license, not an example of
conformity to a particular rule.

--
One of Jack Vance's heroes (Aillas, in _Suldrun's Garden_) escaped from
an oubliette by climbing a ladder he had made from the bones of his
predecessors.

[CDB]

On 01/07/2016 10:17 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> charles wrote:

[any loud cry]

>> A few years ago - in December I heard a market trader shouting "Get your
>> sannarats here". She was selling "Santa Hats"

> Echoes of the Morecambe and Wise sketch, "Morny Stannit". I wanted to
> include a Youtube link, but I couldn't find one that hadn't been removed
> on copyright grounds (which is fair enough).

Probably pondial, but this one might work, since it ends with an
advertisement for the Stannit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv_qEXPR0Fc

[Peter T. Daniels]

Her pace has been about two chapters per year, and I've done three chapters so
far, so don't hold your breath.

Linguists would be happier with "merely observed" as opposed to argument from
the authority of grammarians who mostly wrote long after the Golden Age poets
had poetized. She does, though, cite relevant passages from grammarians, but
mostly via Sturtevan'ts *Pronunciation of Greek and Latin* (1944 IIRC, but only
the 1st ed. of 1920 is on line).

[Charles Bishop]

In article <dtn3qv...@mid.individual.net>, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca>
wrote:

[snip]

>
> Years ago I bought some buckwheat to experiment with, and made pancakes
> that I really liked. I haven't done so since, because for a long time
> buckwheat was very difficult to find, and then I forgot about it. Maybe
> I should look again; unusual foods have become much more widely
> available over the years.

I think buckwheat pancakes were a staple in western movies and books.
I've wanted some always, and now I might be able to find buckwheat
somewhere and a receipt.

--
charale

[Mack A. Damia]

An intense, somewhat bitter flavor. I have had buckwheat pancakes,
but I don't care for them. Probably an acquired taste, strong almost
like very dark toast.

[RH Draney]

No, but something similar has been suggested:

https://youtu.be/LOgLiHqj0_o

....r

[Tak To]

The bitterness is probably caused by the rancidification of fatty
acids in the bran or the germ. This is a common problem for all
kinds of "whole grain" flours (with bran and germ). In general,
they have a much shorter shelf life than their refined (endosperm
only) counterparts.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[Tak To]

"Soba" (蕎麦) is probably an onyomi of the Chinese term (荞麦/蕎麥 --
<qiao2mai4> in Mandarin, <kiu4mak6> in Cantonese) for the plant.

Also, some soba noodles are made from a mixture of buckwheat
and wheat flours.

[Jerry Friedman]

On 7/1/16 8:34 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2016-07-01, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> On 6/30/16 8:06 PM, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>> On 1/07/2016 3:07 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> On 6/30/16 12:18 PM, the Omrud wrote:
>>
>> [rag-and-bone men]
>>
>>>>> We had one of those, around the end of the 50s. He shouted something
>>>>> like "Rabone! Rabone!". Around our way they were known as "totters".
>>>>
>>>> A word that, because of my limited knowledge of Britain culture, can
>>>> remind me of only one thing.
>>>>
>>>> "To totters and toffs—-in a levelish ratio—-
>>>> My darling K offers her five-quid fellatio."
>>>
>>> You just can't beat a bit of culture.
>>
>> That's Catullus, that is. You can't get no more cultured than that.
>
> Hold the bus, that wouldn't rhyme in Latin: "ratione" (almost
> certainly ablative) vs "fellationem" (accusative).

Dude, what are you thinking? Classical Latin poetry didn't rhyme!

[Jerry Friedman]

On 7/1/16 10:28 AM, CDB wrote:
> On 01/07/2016 10:34 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>> the Omrud wrote:
>
>>> [rag-and-bone men]
>
>>>>>> We had one of those, around the end of the 50s. He shouted
>>>>>> something like "Rabone! Rabone!". Around our way they were
>>>>>> known as "totters".
>
>>>>> A word that, because of my limited knowledge of Britain
>>>>> culture, can remind me of only one thing.
>
>>>>> "To totters and toffs—-in a levelish ratio—- My darling K
>>>>> offers her five-quid fellatio."
>
>>>> You just can't beat a bit of culture.
>
>>> That's Catullus, that is. You can't get no more cultured than
>>> that.
>
>> Hold the bus, that wouldn't rhyme in Latin: "ratione" (almost
>> certainly ablative) vs "fellationem" (accusative).
>
> Meh, "Servos et quirites, aequa ratione,/ glubit magnanimos fellatione."

...

*Restrained from dropping jaw in awe only by not knowing what that means*

[Mack A. Damia]

On Fri, 1 Jul 2016 20:54:29 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>
wrote:

>On 7/1/2016 4:59 PM, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Fri, 01 Jul 2016 12:17:50 -0700, Charles Bishop
>> <ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <dtn3qv...@mid.individual.net>, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>> Years ago I bought some buckwheat to experiment with, and made pancakes
>>>> that I really liked. I haven't done so since, because for a long time
>>>> buckwheat was very difficult to find, and then I forgot about it. Maybe
>>>> I should look again; unusual foods have become much more widely
>>>> available over the years.
>>>
>>> I think buckwheat pancakes were a staple in western movies and books.
>>> I've wanted some always, and now I might be able to find buckwheat
>>> somewhere and a receipt.
>>
>> An intense, somewhat bitter flavor. I have had buckwheat pancakes,
>> but I don't care for them. Probably an acquired taste, strong almost
>> like very dark toast.
>
>The bitterness is probably caused by the rancidification of fatty
>acids in the bran or the germ. This is a common problem for all
>kinds of "whole grain" flours (with bran and germ). In general,
>they have a much shorter shelf life than their refined (endosperm
>only) counterparts.

Raw buckwheat is tan, even slightly greenish. It is soft and will
crumble in your mouth, and it has a mild, agreeable taste. Lots of
starch, too. It is only when you toast the groats (kasha) do they
become bitter, and the more you toast them, the more bitter they
become. They have the same texture as ground nuts, and they will have
a more-or-less burnt flavor about them; regardless, the flavor of
toasted buckwheat groats is quite strong.

[Jerry Friedman]

On 7/1/16 6:54 PM, Tak To wrote:
> On 7/1/2016 4:59 PM, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Fri, 01 Jul 2016 12:17:50 -0700, Charles Bishop
>> <ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <dtn3qv...@mid.individual.net>, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>> Years ago I bought some buckwheat to experiment with, and made pancakes
>>>> that I really liked. I haven't done so since, because for a long time
>>>> buckwheat was very difficult to find, and then I forgot about it. Maybe
>>>> I should look again; unusual foods have become much more widely
>>>> available over the years.
>>>
>>> I think buckwheat pancakes were a staple in western movies and books.
>>> I've wanted some always, and now I might be able to find buckwheat
>>> somewhere and a receipt.

You should have no problem finding buckwheat flour, and I think you can
get buckwheat pancakes at IHOP and its competitors. (Check menu before
heading to restaurant. Past performance no guarantee of future results.)

>> An intense, somewhat bitter flavor. I have had buckwheat pancakes,
>> but I don't care for them. Probably an acquired taste, strong almost
>> like very dark toast.
>
> The bitterness is probably caused by the rancidification of fatty
> acids in the bran or the germ. This is a common problem for all
> kinds of "whole grain" flours (with bran and germ). In general,
> they have a much shorter shelf life than their refined (endosperm
> only) counterparts.

Ah, that might explain why I too have noticed bitterness in buckwheat
pancakes but I haven't in kasha. Maybe the roasting delays rancidification.

[Robert Bannister]

On 1/07/2016 10:31 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 01/07/16 15:05, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> Sometime, when I type with my tongue in cheek,
>
> That has /got/ to hurt.
>

Doesn't depend on whether it is semi-detached or semi-attached to the
rest of the mouth?

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Robert Bannister]

On 1/07/2016 7:48 PM, Janet wrote:
> In article <dtm22a...@mid.individual.net>, rob...@clubtelco.com
> says...
>>

>> I thought buckwheat was the same as bulgur or borgol, but apparently
>> not, although you can make kasha with borgol. So now I don't know what
>> buckwheat is.
>
> wiki is your friend
>
> "Buckwheat (Fagopyrum esculentum) is a plant cultivated for its grain-
> like seeds, and also used as a cover crop. <..>
> Despite the name, buckwheat is not related to wheat, as it is not a
> grass. Instead, buckwheat is related to sorrel, knotweed, and rhubarb. "

Thanks for the information, though I can't imagine myself using the stuff.

[Jerry Friedman]

On 7/1/16 7:07 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 7/1/16 10:28 AM, CDB wrote:
>> On 01/07/2016 10:34 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
>>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>>> the Omrud wrote:
>>
>>>> [rag-and-bone men]
>>
>>>>>>> We had one of those, around the end of the 50s. He shouted
>>>>>>> something like "Rabone! Rabone!". Around our way they were
>>>>>>> known as "totters".
>>
>>>>>> A word that, because of my limited knowledge of Britain
>>>>>> culture, can remind me of only one thing.
>>
>>>>>> "To totters and toffs—-in a levelish ratio—- My darling K
>>>>>> offers her five-quid fellatio."
>>
>>>>> You just can't beat a bit of culture.
>>
>>>> That's Catullus, that is. You can't get no more cultured than
>>>> that.
>>
>>> Hold the bus, that wouldn't rhyme in Latin: "ratione" (almost
>>> certainly ablative) vs "fellationem" (accusative).
>>
>> Meh, "Servos et quirites, aequa ratione,/ glubit magnanimos fellatione."
> ...
>
> *Restrained from dropping jaw in awe only by not knowing what that means*

Never mind, I get it. *Jaw drops*

[Tak To]

Groats include the hull (husk). I have never had buckwheat
pancakes, and I have no idea whether the buckwheat flour for
buckwheat pancakes includes the hull or not; or if it does,
whether the groats are toasted first.

FWIW Japanese soba noodles can be made from buckwheat with the
hulls ("inaki soba", darker) and or without the hulls ("goken
soba", whiter). I think I have had both kinds, but honestly
don't remember any big difference in flavor.

[Tak To]

Milling increases the total surface by many folds, thus
speeding up rancidification by oxidation.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sat, 2 Jul 2016 01:42:33 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>

"O dem buckwheat cakes and Injun batter*,
Makes you fat or a whole lot fatter,
Look away! Look away! Look away! Dixie Land."

* Injun batter - a loose mixture of coarsely ground cornmeal, salt,
water, and grease (wild game grease preferred), stirred up and fried.

[Janet]

In article <nl73c7$vsq$1...@dont-email.me>, ta...@alum.mit.eduxx says...

>
> On 7/1/2016 4:59 PM, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > On Fri, 01 Jul 2016 12:17:50 -0700, Charles Bishop
> > <ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <dtn3qv...@mid.individual.net>, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> [snip]
> >>>
> >>> Years ago I bought some buckwheat to experiment with, and made pancakes
> >>> that I really liked. I haven't done so since, because for a long time
> >>> buckwheat was very difficult to find, and then I forgot about it. Maybe
> >>> I should look again; unusual foods have become much more widely
> >>> available over the years.
> >>
> >> I think buckwheat pancakes were a staple in western movies and books.
> >> I've wanted some always, and now I might be able to find buckwheat
> >> somewhere and a receipt.
> >
> > An intense, somewhat bitter flavor. I have had buckwheat pancakes,
> > but I don't care for them. Probably an acquired taste, strong almost
> > like very dark toast.
>
> The bitterness is probably caused by the rancidification of fatty
> acids in the bran or the germ. This is a common problem for all
> kinds of "whole grain" flours (with bran and germ). In general,
> they have a much shorter shelf life than their refined (endosperm
> only) counterparts.

Buckwheat is related to sorrel and rhubarb hence the flavour. Some
people soak it for 15 minutes then rinse in water, before use.

Janet

[Mark Brader]

Katy Jennison:

>>> Ours was a sort of consonant-free howl, which we were led to believe
>>> derived from "Any old iron?"

"Janet":

>> It was in the days when street newsvendors still used to shout the
>> headlines of their wares, incomprehensibly.

Not something I ever remember them doing here. We never had a lot of
street news vendors in my time in any case. I do very clearly remember
one, though. He would repeat the same words, in the same intonation,
every 5 seconds or so, with the last word spoken very fast:

GET your Daily Starrrrrrr... PAPER!

(The Toronto Star used to be called the Toronto Daily Star.
Clark Kent's "Daily Planet" is named after it.)


Charles Hope:

> A few years ago - in December I heard a market trader shouting "Get your
> sannarats here". She was selling "Santa Hats"

I am reminded of a day about a year after I moved to what is
now Toronto. I was riding a bus in another part of what is now
the city -- or rather, probably[1] just outside it, but it was
a Toronto bus -- and the driver was calling out the main stops,
as they used to do[2], omitting all consonants before the first
vowel and all vowels after it.

I was riding the route for the first time, I wanted to get off
at Dufferin St., he called "Uffrn!", and I rang the bell without a
moment's thought.

And I knew I was now a Torontonian.


[1] I was going west on Steeles Av., which was the Metro (now city)
limit. Both the street alignment and the city limit are straight
lines following the old Township of York survey grid, but I don't
know how precisely, i.e. whether the city limit is down the middle
of the street or what.

[2] In streetcars they used to call out every stop. Then both kinds
of drivers gradually stopped doing it; presumably it stopped being
a requirement and it was only the older drivers who continued for
a while. Then laws for disabled people began requiring stop
announcements, and now they use automated ones.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | ... "reasonable system" is of course defined as
m...@vex.net | "any one *I've* ever used..." -- Steve Summit

My text in this article is in the public domain.